The fruit of John Crowder and Benjamin Dunn.


“You shall know them by their fruit.” – Matthew 7:20

My intention was to never post on this foolishness again, but defenders of this evil have surfaced here recently (on this post) and so I felt one more post may be in order before putting this garbage to rest.

The wickedness of John Crowder and Benjamin Dunn continues its long march of destruction as it continues to shipwreck more souls.

For those who are new to DefCon and have no idea what this wickedness is about (and why I refer to it as “wickedness”), you must first understand that the unregenerate God-mockers in the videos below are disciples of Crowder and Dunn. You can see what the Crowder and Dunn wolves are all about in the post The New Breed of Blasphemous Preachers.

Another disciple of Crowder and Dunn and another pied piper leading souls to Hell is Captain Whacked the Pirate Preacher. His downward spiral into his Satanic majesties’ abyss continues with his latest completely demonic display of hatred toward God seen in this video featured on A Little Leaven (viewer discretion advised).

Then there’s Stacy Denboer and Cait. Stacy and Cait are both victims of this wickedness and are just pawns in this evil game.

These wolves are part of a demonic movement of false teachers advancing a worldly, Hell-born, Satan-inspired philosophy called “tokin’ the ghost” and “getting high on the most high.”

So, now that you’ve been acquainted with this foolishness, here’s the fruit of Crowder and Dunn seen in the lives of Cait, Jenn, and Stef as they heap wrath upon themselves for all the world to see:

72 thoughts on “The fruit of John Crowder and Benjamin Dunn.

  1. Thank you for taking the time to speak out against this horrible, vile blasphemy that is starting to get a hold on some people. The silence of leaders in the church has been apalling- any one who has shared a platform with Jonh Crowder needs to repent immediately. Regards, Matthew.


  2. You might notice that these YouTube videos have been removed by the user. Other such videos are being set so that they may NOT be linked by external sites such as yours. John Crowder and his folks are aware that you criticize their ministries.

    If you are sincerely curious (or concerned) you should go to YouTube and watch videos on these channels:


    I have read many concerns about their interpretation and portrayal of scripture. Frankly, I have seen very LITTLE discussion of scripture from ANY of these folks. The bible isn’t relevant to them.

    Others are concerned about suspected drug use. They say they use no drugs or alcohol, but here are two EXAMPLE videos for you watch. They are all like this, too.

    Some say is ecstasy (MDMA), some say it’s heroin. Ketamine is the most likely product, or a ketamine/MDMA blend. (Search Wikipedia if you aren’t familiar with illicit use of ketamine… Dangerous stuff!)

    They say they love Jesus — they sound sincere. They say they don’t use drugs… Hmm… You watch and decide.


  3. John Crowder and his folks are aware that you criticize their ministries.

    Of course we criticize their quote-unquote “ministries.” That’s because they are ministers of Satan. 2nd Corinthians 11:14-15–“And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.” This baloney is not of God. They are driven on by their master, and by their own lustful pride and desire to be seen as great in the eyes of people who want to continue living in outright rebellion against God.

    They say they love Jesus — they sound sincere.

    Sad thing is……

    Mormons say they love Jesus, and they sound sincere.
    Jehovah’s Witnesses say they love Jesus, and they sound sincere.
    Catholics say they love Jesus, and they sound sincere.
    Many cults say they love Jesus, and they sound sincere.
    Many people who live in open and unrepentant sin say they love Jesus, and they sound sincere.
    Muslims say they love God, and they sound sincere.

    Anybody can “sound sincere” when they say they “love Jesus.” In fact, on “the last day” many will call Him “Lord, Lord!!” And He will deny ever knowing them.

    Whether the conduct of these goofballs has anything to do with drugs or not, one thing is certain–it has a whole lot to do with “spirits”–and not just the kind that you fins in bottles.

    “For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but
    against principalities, against powers,
    against the rulers of the darkness of this age,
    against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places” (Ephesians 6:12).


  4. That sin-b-gone video is absolute blasphemy and so distasteful. It’s so sad that people will watch that video and 1) find it humorous and 2) go after people who think the video is distasteful. Absolutely sickening to see this kind of stuff be allowed as being called “Christian”. It’s more like “Christ-less”. (Just my two cents). 🙂


  5. They say they love Jesus, they sound sincere. You have got to be kidding!!!!! These clowns are mockers and blasphemers and on they way to hell. Anyone who follows them is on the same road. the only reason they are still around if because of the pathetic state of the so called church today. If anyone truly follows the Lord Jesus Christ, they could not bring the name of our Lord and Savior into this disgusting behavior. Who cares if they are on drugs. they would be better to be on drugs and not mention the name of Jesus then do what they are doing


  6. Jude Newman wrote, “Who cares if they are on drugs? They would be better to be on drugs and not mention the name of Jesus then do what they are doing.”

    That is an interesting position. I wonder if most Christians feel this way.

    I hope I am misunderstanding you. Clarifications are welcome.

    It seems you are saying that it matters very little if they are on drugs or not. (Literally, you don’t care.) Do you truly believe it doesn’t matter?

    You seem more frustrated that their actions are disrespectful to your faith. That is, your message reads as if they have committed a breech of manners against the deity and thus they deserve no compassion.

    IF they are on drugs (such as ketamine or MDMA), then they have lost access to something essentially human — something vital to our ability to make choices in this creation. When they are together and taking drugs, they feel WONDERFUL… loved… cherished… They are in absolute bliss. This artificial suspension of reality removes from them the ability to make the important spiritual and rational choices.

    Do you believe in God? Do you believe He has a plan for you? (Obviously, the answers to both are ‘Yes!’) Okay, then… Do you believe you made this choice with a CLEAR mind and heart?

    Would you have made the choice to believe and to love if you spent all of your time whacked out on psychotropic drugs that ALWAYS make you feel loved?

    And if so… Would that choice be truly meaningful??

    I have watched many of the videos made by many in John Crowder’s following. Take my word for it — they are sincere when they say that they BELIEVE and they LOVE. Their words honour Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ at all times. Believe me, they love Christ as much as you do — They are as grateful to Him as you are.

    It is not fair to say that they are “faking” their belief and their love. If they are using drugs in worship, then it might be fair to say that their acceptance of God’s will is, perhaps, “incomplete.”

    My concern with your comment is that you seem to say, “They don’t love God like you’re ‘supposed’ to, so to hell with them!” I hope I misunderstood.

    I’m curious what other Christians think of this.


  7. Take my word for it — they are sincere when they say that they BELIEVE and they LOVE. Their words honour Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ at all times. Believe me, they love Christ as much as you do — They are as grateful to Him as you are.

    I doubt it. They make a mockery of the worship of the Most Holy God and His Christ. These men are blasphemers who love nothing more than there own flesh. If you want to see the fruits of their Satanic ministry, look no further than this “Captain Whacked” fellow.

    Sean, I suppose you think it’s funny to curse and use drugs in “worshipping God.” Trust me, God doesn’t. In fact, He said, through the apostle Paul, that drugs are a manifestation of the sinful works of the flesh. That word “sorcery” in that passage is the Greek word pharmakeia, which is a reference to the mind-altering drugs many pagan cults used at the time in “worshipping” their “gods.” I understand that you don’t really care about what the Bible says, just so long as you can worship your own idea of who God is. But, from reading His word, it’s obvious that God cares.

    It is not fair to say that they are “faking” their belief and their love. If they are using drugs in worship, then it might be fair to say that their acceptance of God’s will is, perhaps, “incomplete.”

    They are fakes. If they loved God more than they loved themselves, they would obey His word. But since they don’t, their actions prove they are still rebelling against Him. It really says a lot that you can’t back up your support of these heretics using God’s Word, but instead appeal to sinful human flesh and its desires. That says a lot about where your heart is.


  8. If there’s any question where Crowder and company stands, check out the video on this post. His mockeries betray whatever lame, shallow, and wholly laughable attempts by his defenders to claim he loves God and truth.

    He is a mocker, a blasphemer, and a wolf. Lest he repent, his judgment will be swift.

    – The Pilgrim


  9. fourpointer wrote:

    “Sean, I suppose you think it’s funny to curse and use drugs in ‘worshipping God.’ ”

    WHY would you suppose such a thing??

    If you didn’t read my two posts, then you simply wouldn’t know what I might find funny or what I don’t find funny.

    If you had read my posts, you would understand that I am very concerned about two aspects of Crowder’s “ministry”: (1) the possible use of very dangerous psychotropic drugs with awful effects in the short term and devastating effects long term; and, (2) the misuse of Christ’s teachings as a license to do what you want, even if sinful and dangerous, by virtue of the fact that it is “for Christ.”

    Several people have commented that Crowder’s followers are not really following Christ’s teachings. I have agreed whole-heartedly, PLUS I added the concern that hard-core drugs might be involved.

    There is nothing in anything I have written that would lead someone to conclude that I think it’s “funny” to curse and use drugs. To the contrary, my second message makes it clear that I feel these people have lost something essential to the human experience: the ability to feel REAL love and make REAL choices (as opposed to just feeling artificially “good” all of the time through drugs).

    fourpointer wrote, “I understand that you don’t really care about what the Bible says, just so long as you can worship your own idea of who God is.”

    Again I ask… HOW did you come to understand that??

    For crying out loud, I’m the one who raised the concern about the drug use. Somehow you assume that I swear, do drugs, ignore the Holy Bible, and find the whole thing funny.

    fourpointer, you ended your psychic mind-reading session telling me that I “can’t back up [my] support of these heretics using God’s word,” and then you made some statement about my fondness for “sinful human flesh.” Your misreading of me is both insulting and bewildering.

    I don’t support Crowder’s inane ramblings. I’m concerned that the leaders of this “faith” take hundreds of young people down a very dangerous path of drug use and misuse of the Holy Bible. (Oh, not that they really mention the Bible all that much — I don’t think they’ve read it!)

    The only equivocation I have made it this: Please do not assume that they are all “phonies.” For those drugged up young people, they “feel” warmth and love and glory. Watch the videos and decide for yourself… They do not appear to be lying about their love for the Lord. I suggest that they are deceived… and I kinda thought you would agree with me about that.

    But strangely, you choose to attack me for my sinful, drug using, flesh-hungry lifestyle. Puzzling.

    Of the two replies I have received to my concerned post to your site, both have been in the form of “Screw them — they can burn in hell… and so can you, Sean!”

    It’s clear that I’m not welcome to post here, so I will respect your wishes. A good guest recognizes when being asked to leave.

    On my way out, I’ll leave you with one question to ponder…

    WHY do you think I came to YOU at to ask your advice??

    God Bless.


  10. Sean, I don’t understand your post. Are you saying that because (as you say) they are on drugs and just feeling love, feeling wonderful they are not responsible. John Crowder has set himself up as a leader in the christian faith! I am appalled! that anyone would support these people. being on drugs does nothing to alter the blasphemy, the mocking of Jesus, the mocking of any who desire to live righteously. They are a cancer. Yes I am outraged by these people and others like them who make as nothing the salvation that cost my Lord and Savior to hang on the cross despised and rejected to die for our sin that we may live. Is this what He gave His life for? How about the apostles, prophets, the millions who have died and still die every day, who are persecuted and will not deny their faith. Is that what all this blood has been shed for, so these clowns can mock and ridicule it. Anyone who is a true born again Christian would be appalled by this.


  11. Jude Newman wrote, “Sean, I don’t understand your post. Are you saying that because (as you say) they are on drugs and just feeling love, feeling wonderful they are not responsible. …”

    First, Jude, let me thank you for asking what I meant instead of assuming. The message I posted last night expresses a great deal of frustration. Imagine how you would feel if you asked a for advice on a Christian website and the only response you received was along the lines of, “You think that way because you hate God, deny the Bible, and you do drugs,… You’ll burn in hell!” You would be as puzzled and frustrated as I have been.

    As you said, “Anyone who is a true born again Christian would be appalled by this.” Agreed. I’m appalled by this. It’s awful, it’s offensive, and it’s dangerous. Blasphemy… mockery… a waste of the Sacrifice… Yes, all of that.

    I will say it for, like, the 8th time: I do not support Crowder’s ministry. I do not defend it. I’m appalled by it.

    A few people had posted that opinion before me, but I had seen nothing here about the suspected drug use. Therefore, my first post raised two new points: (1) Has anyone noticed that Crowder’s folks RARELY refer to Bible passages? and, (2) Does anyone think that drugs might be involved? I provided links to a couple YouTube videos (as the embedded videos above are link-dead) so you could watch and decide for yourself.

    My only “defense” of the followers of John Crowder is something like, “I don’t think they’re faking their feelings of love for Christ.” However, I have always made that comment in the context of my clear belief that they don’t KNOW Christ.

    These drugs (IF involved) are a different breed… This isn’t like taking a few drinks and feeling sorta “happy” about life. People who take MDMA will tell you that they feel totally fulfilled — completely enriched and happy. Mushrooms sometimes give an experience that feels like the fundamental nature of reality has been altered, sometimes leaving the user with the feeling that they have met God, sat around with Him, and had a friendly little chat about stuff.

    Now I’m feeling defensive here, so I struggle to make this point… I am NOT saying that mushroom users truly know God or that MDMA users are truly fulfilled! I am certainly not saying that it is “okay,” “acceptable,” or “funny.” Very clearly and repeatedly, I am saying that this is a dangerous trap.

    The feelings are very real to those who experience them.

    Imagine a 16-year-old girl who is looking for guidance… seeking a deeper understanding of the world and her role in it. Suppose a 25-year-old guy approaches her and says, “I understand your struggle. I can show the way through Christ.” Next, suppose he gives her some MDMA or mushrooms or ketamine or whatever, and tells her of glory of God’s love… the majesty of His sacrifice for our sins… the beauty of salvation through Him…

    As the drug takes effect, the young person develops deep feelings of love, connectedness, contentment, wonder, and majesty. The world MAKES SENSE and is a beautiful creation with a special place just for her.

    Now, a real born again Christian would introduce appropriate New Testament passages when describing the stain of sin, the sacrifice, and the path to salvation. Crowder’s folks seem to say, “Hey, we’re having a kick-ass party tonight! We’re getting totally sloshed on the Glory… We’ll be tokin’ the ghost… Are you in?” They have huge parties that, to an outsider, and indistinguishable from drug-fueled “rave” parties.

    All I’m saying is, we shouldn’t assume that they are actually a bunch of atheists or Satan worshippers who want to do drugs, so they outright lie about believing in God just so they can have an excuse to get together. If you ever meet one, you will hear their conviction and their sincerity — they truly believe their knowledge and love of God is real. The experiences are profound.

    If I told you that YOU don’t really believe in God, you would be offended. When fourpointer told me that I don’t believe in God, I was offended. In exactly the same vein, if you told one of these kids that they don’t believe in God, they would assert that you are flat-out wrong. To them, their experiences are real and profound (just like yours are to you).

    Again, NO, the drug use (if any) does not excuse the blasphemy. However, what if we had an opportunity to bring one or two of Crowder’s kids to Jesus? (I mean, for real, not with drugs!) Would that be a bad idea? Okay, well how might one go about that?

    You see, if you start by saying, “I’d like you to know about Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, and his wonderful sacrifice for you…,” then the kid will respond, “Oh, thanks — I’m good! I’m already totally whacked with the glory! Completely sloshed!” I wouldn’t know what to say next. If I say, “You haven’t REALLY given yourself to Jesus,” then I’ve just entered an un-winnable argument, because they are CERTAIN that they have.

    My original question was about whether you had heard if the drug-use rumors were true. Second, given that I have regular contact with two of the 19-year-olds, what can (or should) be done?

    Something more helpful than “Let them burn in hell!” would be appreciated.


  12. Sean,

    I apologize if I have misrepresented your views about these people who follow Crowder/Dunn. But when you say of these people that “they are sincere when they say that they BELIEVE and they LOVE,” and especially that “their words honour Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ at all times” it makes it sound like you don’t have a problem with the actions of people who follow Crowder/Dunn. And for the record, I never said you don’t believe in God.

    One reason I was so blunt in my comment was because of the ambiguousness of your comments, and to get a response out of you–to show us where you really stand. Because on the one hand, you voiced concern about drug use (BTW, there is none), and on the other hand you sought to justify the people’s God-mocking behavior.

    As you said, they are relying on their own “experience” and their “feelings” to justify their behavior. It’s not truly a love for God as it is about some supposed “feelings” and warm fuzzies they had. But when it comes to worshipping God, it ain’t about our “feelings.” It’s about knowing God as the Lord and Master of all things, and one to be revered and held in the highest esteem–He’s not a “bartender.”

    These are people who believe in an idea about God that is not true, and who love a God of their own making. They have chosen to follow men who make fun of God every chance they get and who do not care about the holiness of God. Compare Isaiah’s reaction when He saw YHVH (Isaiah 6:1-5) with these people’s idea about who God is.

    If these people follow Crowder/Dunn, it is not something they were “duped” into doing. They weren’t “tricked.” Especially when you consider many people who follow these charlatans are not just teenagers, but many are full-grown adults who know right from wrong. Either way, they follow these people with eyes wide open, and allow themselves to be led astray because they want to say they’re saved, yet at the same time don’t want to give up their sinful behavior. Whether they do drugs or not, they are still mocking God in everything they do and say.


  13. Sean I agree with fourpointer. They haven’t been duped into this. Such hatred toward my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, The Bible, His church. A hatred that has set out to ridicule anything to do with holiness and righteousness. This in no way, shape or form resembles Christianity. “But you beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. How they told you there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. These are sensual persons, who cause divisions not having the Spirit. Jude 17-19. There are 2 classes of people in the world, believers and unbelievers. Pray for them, give them the gospel. “For it is the power of God to Salvation. Amen!!!!!


  14. I know exactly where all this could lead…! If we bury our heads in the sand and pretend this is not dangerous we are deceiving ourselves. God help us!

    Review this video and pray that it doesn’t end up like this! Please pray and fast against these evil principalities and powers in heavenly places.

    Peace & Love



  15. Dear Cait:

    I intended to respond to your comment earlier but in the meantime it appears that one of the other DefCon editors has removed your comment.

    Anyway, in your comment you waxed eloquent about how much you love Jesus. However, what exactly does this prove? Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and Catholics claim the same thing.

    I also noticed that you removed all your previous videos from YouTube. I’m curious as to why.

    And finally, I was wondering if you could help me out. With all the silliness and outright blasphemy that you and the Crowder/Dunn crowd are perpetuating in the name of Jesus, would you be kind enough to justify this “movement” by:

    1). Providing examples of such behavior in Scripture (and please keep it in context).

    2). Citing examples of such behavior in the past 2,000 years of Church history.


    – The Pilgrim


  16. These people seem to be victims of a brainwashing
    cult.They make the Lord out to be a laughing fool.
    There is definitely demonic possession going on.
    Jeremiah 5:30,31An appalling and horrible thing
    has happened in the land;the prophets prophecy
    falsely and the priests rule on their own authority;
    and My people love it so! But what will you do at
    the end of it?


  17. John Crowder’s carnival of mockery and blasphemy against God is intending to set up a spirit channelling and manifestation zone in Tauranga, New Zealand 10 – 12 February 2010 – see

    If you watch the video advertisement statement given by John Crowder, it presents like an invitation from the Devil to play around with him and be different forever.

    Check this prophesy coming from the NZ organisers

    There are two aspects in that statement that sum up the spirit behind everything John Crowder:

    1. “I then saw me taking Bibles and other forms of symbolism and burying them …..”

    2. “I then saw the cross of Jesus go into the land like a stake…… I then saw blood come up from the crack…”

    Burying the Bible and chasing after bleeding crosses sums up John Crowder type madness.

    Stakes, crosses and blood in the context of John Crowder antics, goes with vampirism (Satanic perversions).

    It is possible that soon after the New Zealand event there will be occurrences of people taken into custody for annoying the neighbours by howling at the moon and scratching at the doors.

    Benjamin Dunn has apparently got a disclaimer medical certificate for plane travel, to accommodate a “religious condition” that produces unexpected manifestations.

    I wonder how long before someone attempts to sue an aeroplane company, because a religious freak imparted “joy” to the pilots so that they flew up, down, and everywhere except to the scheduled destination.

    This is more serious than funny. John Crowder and Ben Dunn are channelling spirits that do affect others in the vicinity.

    Make sure you never travel on a plane they are on.

    It is probably safest to never go anywhere they go, to avoid the risk of being drawn to their most likely eternal destiny:

    Revelation 21:8 “But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (NKJV)


  18. The editors have edited this, but chosen to post at this time to show more of the fruit that appears to be coming from false teachers – John & Ben.

    “you guys are all [expletive deleted] angry bitter mockers. REPENT John and Ben love the Lord Jesus and they know His word. Open your [expletive deleted] eyes and ears and stop being [expletive deleted] about it all. you’re the reason my generation HATES Jesus. They think He’s just like YOU.


  19. jim,

    No, I am afraid we are not the reason your generation hates Jesus. The reason your generation hates Jesus is because of the total depravity of your heart. The problem is that John & Benjamin try to make the High King of Heaven in their own image. They mock Him by their words and their actions. If they truly knew His Word, they would repent and plead for mercy before they are consumed by the fierce wrath of the Almighty! Your language only serves to bring to light the kind of fruit that their so-called ministry produces.

    The Desert Pastor


  20. Wow – out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. Not sure how old you are jim, but you sure could use some Ivory soap applied to that foul mouth of yours. In addition, you do well to repent of such wickedness and examine yourself for I dare say such words voiced in the name of Jesus raise red flags as to the state of your soul.


  21. Okay so I read most of these posts, and I will tell you that I don’t agree with most of everything that John crowder and his crew have to talk about. I do KNOW one thing, they are NOT on drugs. Yes they use drug references, and while I disagree with that sort of thing, I’m thinking that they say those things to ” reach” out to the society we live in today. Alot of youth choose marijuana as an escape these days, as well as adults. It seems as though crowder wants to expose a different escape for the youth and that is, getting high on God instead of drugs. That’s the best way I can put it, I don’t agree with it but I’m trying to understand his side and where he is coming from. I actually met georgian banov about a year ago, he came to the church I was attending. Banov, although I didn’t know rly much about him, was an amazing man. The feeling I got from him was not a bad one at all. (he is supposedly is in cahoots with crowder.) Banov was definitly a man of God, I could just feel it off of him. Before he went up to speak he was sitting quietly in one of the chairs reading the bible. I wish you guys could have a chance to actually meet him. He didn’t just speak a bunch of jibberish, he spoke of God and about his testimony. Disernment of spirits is an amazing gift God has provided us all with. I could definitely feel a difference between banov and the silly guy who calls himself a pirate. That video absolutly appalled me, and my heart sank to the ground. Although all I, and the rest of you,can do is PRAY! Pray and love, because I truly do not think that crowder and the rest of his follower/crew know exactly what they are doing. Believe me, I almost fell for it until God told me just to turn off the YouTube video because I wasn’t going to gain anything from it. Thank you for your time and letting me get out what I had to say on this whole subject. Please just pray. God is our strength. This is something only God can take care of. Much love and many blessings.


  22. I’ve just read the response posts above. Friends our greatest commandment from Jesus is to love one another.
    Lets not judge each other but love and pray for each other, regardless of who or what you are. If we are not loving each other we ourselves are falling into the enemies trap.
    Love breaks into peoples hearts. Not fake love. Real love, the kind Jesus pours out on us.

    Thank you that you love each of us sooo much Father God, show us how to love the way You desire us to I pray, in Jesus name, Amen


  23. Le Juan Shrives:

    I’m sorry, but you are mistaken. When specifically asked which is the greatest commandment, Jesus replied: “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.” (Matt.22:37)

    If I truly love the Lord my God in this way, I will defend His name, His truth, His character, His word first above anyone else. Those who attack or pervert His character or His truth are to be exposed and called to repentance.


  24. leJuan,
    If we love God and others, we will warn them when heretics come on the scene. That is what this post is all about, these men are heretics, they are not true blood bought believers. Examine their words, study the scriptures, look at the behavior they display and see if what they do and what they say lines up EXACTLY as God has said. The ‘behavior’ of those in the clips, this is not behavior I find anywhere in God’s word. Too many want to defend this garbage simply because it keeps them comfortable in their sins. They have a ‘god’ they’ve created in their own minds, and that ‘god’ is just as you’ve stated…a ‘god’ of love, love, love.
    Do study all the attributes of God friend…His holiness is a good starting point. When we understand His holiness, then we understand why this junk is unacceptable to Him. We also understand why He hates sin and sinful behavior, why He must literally hurl sinners into hell, why He is also a God of hate. Study the whole counsel and cry out for wisdom and discernment.



  25. I really admire the stance of “defending” God here, but are you certain Jesus is as offended as you are? Is this a situation like when Jesus was being taken from the garden and Peter cuts off a soldier’s ear? Jesus corrected Peter and healed the injured soldier. Take a look inward and ask if you are “defending” Jesus, or are you “defending” your own personal interpretation of God. Many times God tells us through his word that HE is NOT on OUR side. Are WE on His side?


  26. Doug,

    Regarding your question: “…are you certain Jesus is as offended as you are?”, I must ask which “Jesus” are you referring to? The “jesus” who some are promoting as a cool, hang loose, don’t-take-life-so-seriously dude who winks and chuckles as things like blasphemy? Or the Jesus of the Bible Who has condemned all false representations of Him or the things of Him? If you are referring to a false, Satan-invented “jesus” who thinks trifling with the things of God’s word is no big deal, then, no, I don’t see where that “jesus” would be offended with blasphemy at all, since that “jesus” is not God Almighty anyway, being nothing more than a pitiful mockery and the very image of blasphemy himself. But if you are referring to Jesus the Almighty God Who is absolutely holy and has zero tolerance for sin, then, yes He is offended when anyone mocks or makes light of the things of Him (which is the essence of blasphemy). And from what He has revealed of Himself in His word, He certainly takes this much more serious that we can even fathom.

    Doug, if you think you are a follower of the Almighty, All-pure God Who condemns all unrighteousness, and you see nothing wrong with blasphemy, or see nothing blasphemous about the above videos, then I would encourage you to take your own advise and “look inward” and ask yourself if you are following the real Jesus.


  27. Thank you, Doug, for looking this with a refreshing view. I have a hard time condemning others without knowing the reasons behind their views.

    I would like everyone to think of something that my pastor shared with us. He placed a pendulum in the middle of the sanctuary and went on to explain how we need a balance of God’s Word & God’s Spirit. If we spend too much time with the Word, we become focused on formalism. If we spend too much time with the Spirit, we fry in fanaticism. The point wasn’t to be still in middle or more to one side, it was to swing freely. To enjoy everything that God has given us.

    I ask you to be kind when responding. Love & blessing on you all.


  28. Loyal Toker, yes I’ll be kind but I think you’re name says it all. You want to look at their views, how about because they are sinners and they hate God and everything holy. Exactly how we all were before our Heavenly Father in His grace and mercy saved us. We know them by their fruit and their fruit is rotten As for your pastors pendulum it is false. Enjoy what God has given us, that would be the Scriptures. We are to wash ourselves in the Word, there is no such thing as too much. You have bought into a false doctrine we are not to swing freely we are to be firmly rooted and established in Gods Word


  29. So, what you’re saying is focus completely on God’s Word (Jesus) and forget God’s Spirit (Holy Ghost) completely? Is that what I’m reading? Only concern myself with 2/3 of God.
    My next question is, have you ever met Ben or John? Ever had a conversation with them? Or are you just judging them on what others say about them? (Gossip)
    I think you might have misinterpted what I wrote. My parents made sure I was rooted in the Word of God. I meant to swing freely between having time with Jesus and the Holy Ghost.
    Blissings & Love to all!!


  30. I don’t really understand how you mean you spend time with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit gives life to the Word, opening it up so we understand its truth, convicts us of sin, leads us to Jesus and glorifies Him. John 16 : 12-15. We find everything pertaining to life and Godliness in the Scriptures, not outside by laying aside our Bible and spending time with the Holy Spirit. This leads into all sorts of error like John. I don’t have to know these men as I see by their fruits the condition of their hearts. Charismatics take the Holy Spirit, worship Him and attribute all sorts of things to Him. This is not the Holy Spirit but some demon that is leading people away from the way, the truth and the life which is only found in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. There are people here who can explain all this much clearer than I can, so I will leave it to them if you are wanting to know anything. I pray you will take godly counsel to heart and stay away from the demonic deception these people are involved in
    I was formerly known as Jude Newman, messed my gravatar up and now can’t change my user name. Any suggestions


  31. Dear LoyalToker:

    Since Paul condemned the man in 1 Corinthians 5 based on others’ words (since Paul was not there), was he judging based on “gossip?”

    We don’t need to meet these two guys (nor sit down and have a conversation with them over coffee) to know that they are blasphemers (and blasphemers will not inherit the Kingdom of God). And our judgments are not solely based on others’ words (like the Apostle Paul’s was), but thanks to Youtube, their rotten fruit is available for all to see and judge (as Jesus commanded us to do in Matthew 7:15-20).

    These are blasphemers of the worst kind because they claim to be Christians while they perform their dirty deeds.

    The burden of proof is on you (as one who is defending this behavior) since we have posted more than enough evidence of their God-mocking, blasphemous “fruit” on this blog. Your work will be cut out for you, though. You’ll have to start by explaining and justifying how taking God’s holy name and morphing it into a drug reference and blaspheming the Holy Spirit is NOT worthy of God’s condemnation and eternal punishment.

    – Pilgrim


  32. Okay, I see we have entered a war of semantics. You say we are dishonoring God when using such terms about being in His presense. Here are the definitions I found in the dictionary.

    Intoxicate – to excite to a point beyond self-control

    Drunk – to be overcome by any powerful emotion

    Stoned – see above; under the influence

    Crack – to break open (eg: the cross is the crack of Heaven)

    Smoke/toke – inhale, to breathe in

    Inject (shoot-up) – to introduce a missing quality

    High – excited, elated

    Let’s review, when I am in His presence, I breathe in the Holy Ghost and introduce a missing quality that brings me to a point of excitement beyond my control and I get overcome by a powerful emotion and sometimes I see glimpses of Heaven.
    Hmmm….. What’s the difference?

    You will not change the way I feel. Do I agree with Ben, John, Brandon, & Cait 100%? Nope. I don’t agree with any human being 100%. On the other hand, I refuse to condemn them or any other person to hell. It’s not my job. I don’t feel judged when around them. I feel loved. As a burden of proof, I will go with how they live their lives. I don’t think they would do the things they do if not for the glory of God. You will probably disagree. I don’t think I could find joy preaching to people in garbage dumps or kissing the missing appendanges of the lepers. I’m not saying any of this to change your mind. This is how I view Christians. Are they all about talking the talk or walking the walk? I know where I stand, and where I need to stretch more.

    Peace & blessings.


  33. Loyaltoker, you are following a lying spirit hiding in a “Jesus suit”.

    You will spend eternity with the Jesus you are following, and yours will be thrown into the lake of fire as it is a demonic entity.

    This is absolutely certain because scripture repeatedly counsels towards soberness, sound mind, self control, and you are promoting the opposite.

    The true Jesus Christ warned about false Christs:

    Matthew 24:24 …false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive……

    Any unbiblical teaching about who Jesus Christ is, or what he wants us to do, creates a false Christ for people to follow.

    Your Jesus is named MentalnutcaseJesus, DrunkJesus, IdiotJesus.

    Faithfulness to a Christ is worthless if it is a false Christ.

    See also “Here a Christ, There a Christ…”

    Loyaltoker, all your religious devotion is actually adoration of “the God of this age” (the devil – 2 Corinthians 4:3-4) and a mockery of the God of Genesis 1:1.

    Scripture has already warned that false Christs will be judged:

    Rev 20:10… the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Loyaltoker, get off your spiritual drugtaking and stop mocking the true Jesus Christ, stop mocking the Holy Spirit, and stop mocking the Bible.

    John Crowder and like minded blasphemers are just playing with sorcery masquerading as “the ministry of Jesus”.

    They treat Jesus Christ as a clownish prostitute.

    Their involvement with stigmata (bleeding body parts, bleeding crosses, etc.) is an instant proof of playing with sorcery in the style of the perverted ways of Roman Catholicism.
    It is a variation of vampirism and similar bloodlusts.

    John Crowder has a “heavy, weighty” millstone annointing:

    Luke 17:1-2 Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin”

    Loyaltoker, sober up, repent, and start serving the true God, or risk being thrown into the lake of fire by him:

    Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (NKJV)

    Loyaltoker, you need to get more fear in your life.

    The fear of the Lord.


  34. LT,

    This is not a matter of semantics, and although you’re right about there being a war; it’s not a war of words, but a war for men’s souls. On one side is Satan the enemy and his minions which consist of lying spirits and deceivers like you and Crowder and company, who are actively trying to lure people into following a false christ, and on the other side is the Triune One True and Living God, the infinite Creator and Judge of the universe; His holy angels; and His saints on earth who stand fast upon the Rock of Ages, the sure and unchanging Word of God.

    One side proclaims lies and deceptions, and the other side proclaims the truth.

    Did you notice that all your references are sensual, fleshy, and rooted in raw and sinfully motivated experientialism? Not only this, but did you notice that all your references are linked directly to the drug culture which thing is strictly forbidden by the Scriptures, being likened to witchcraft/sorcery?

    Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, SENSUALITY, idolatry, SORCERY, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, DRUNKENNESS, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. – Gal. 5:19-21

    The Greek word used for SORCERY in this passage is φαρμακεία which transliterates to the English word pharmakeia (far-mak-i’-ah):

    1. the use or the administering of drugs; poisoning
    2. sorcery, magical arts, often found in connection with idolatry and fostered by it
    3. metaph. the deceptions and seductions of idolatry

    Translated Words
    KJV (3) – sorcery, 2; witchcraft, 1;
    NAS (3) – sorceries, 1; sorcery, 2;

    Verse Count
    Galatians 1
    Revelation 2

    Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words defines sorcery/pharmakeia as follows:

    A-1, Noun, 5331, pharmakia[-eia]
    (Eng., “pharmacy,” etc.) primarily signified “the use of medicine, drugs, spells;” then, “poisoning;” then, “sorcery,” Gal. 5:20, RV, “sorcery” (AV, “witchcraft”), mentioned as one of “the works of the flesh.” See also Rev. 9:21; 18:23. In the Sept., Ex. 7:11,22; 8:7,18; Isa. 47:9,12. In “sorcery,” the use of drugs, whether simple or potent, was generally accompanied by incantations and appeals to occult powers, with the provision of various charms, amulets, etc., professedly designed to keep the applicant or patient from the attention and power of demons, but actually to impress the applicant with the mysterious resources and powers of the sorcerer.

    In every case appeals to witchcraft/sorcery/drug-induced experientialism are always intended to use some “door” or “channel” to connect with resources and powers beyond the individual. But the one and only channel for a human being to connect with the Triune One True and Living God is the channel of faith in Christ, which is given as an unmerited gift of grace by the Father – it is not a feeling, or emotion, or experience that one “works up” within himself.

    For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. – Eph. 2:8-9

    Furthermore, Christ Himself is the One and only door, and the way, the truth, and the life.

    I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. – John 10:9

    Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. – John 14:6

    Any other way than Him and Him alone is a way of deception, the way of thieves and robbers.

    “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. – John 10:1

    “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. – Matthew 7:13-14

    Therefore, anyone who promotes another way, such as equating worship of God to the use of the drugs – even if actual drugs are not taken – is nevertheless giving himself over to the will of demons and that murderer from the beginning, the prince of lies and sorcery, Satan the enemy. As if this weren’t wicked enough, encouraging and giving approval to others who do the same is especially pernicious in the light of scripture:

    Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. – Romans 1:32

    You want to pretend that you are in the presence of the Holy Spirit, and that you are “overcome” by Him, but this is a lie because the Holy Spirit doesn’t “overcome” people, rather He convicts them of sin, and of righteousness, and of the judgment to come while bearing witness about Jesus Christ:

    But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. – John 15:26

    And as he reasoned about righteousness and self-control and the coming judgment, Felix was alarmed and said, “Go away for the present. When I get an opportunity I will summon you”. – Acts 24:25

    When sinful men are in the presence of the One True and Living God they are alarmed at their wretchedness and wickedness in the light of His absolute glory, purity and holiness:

    And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!” – Isaiah 6:5

    So I arose and went out into the valley, and behold, the glory of the LORD stood there, like the glory that I had seen by the Chebar canal, and I fell on my face. – Ezekiel 3:23

    When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, – Revelation 1:17

    You are a slave to sin, LT; and sinners must repent or else they will be cast into hell where they will suffer unspeakable conscious torments forever and ever.

    Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts [pharmakeia], their sexual immorality or their thefts. – Rev 9:21

    I plead with you to turn away from your sinful and lustful fixations upon the flesh, and turn to the Living Christ in humble and sincere repentance.

    All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. – John 6:37

    In Christ,


  35. LoyalToker,

    Let’s break down a few of your statements and see how they line up with Scripture –

    Breathe in the Holy Ghost” – Scriptural reference = ZERO
    “excitement beyond my control” – Scriptural reference = ZERO
    “overcome by a powerful emotion” – Scriptural reference = ZERO
    see glimpses of heaven” – Scriptural reference = ZERO
    “Will not change the way I feel” – Scriptural reference = ZERO

    Here is the reality –

    1. When a person becomes a true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, they are indwelt at the moment of salvation by the Holy Spirit of God. They are not given any indications or authorizations from Scripture to act like they are intoxicated, drunk, or stoned.

    2. We are commanded by Scripture to be in control of our minds. In fact, part of the fruit of the Spirit is SELF-CONTROL. Kundalini yoga, eastern mysticism, transcendental meditation – all of these focus on emptying the mind so that you can lose control and let your emotions free.

    3. As to being overcome by a “powerful emotion”, the believers in the New Testament knew the power of the demons in their control of those who did not profess Christ. In fact, even the demon-possessed know Who Christ is. The demons respond in horror, anger and frustration because they know their time is short. Yes, you may be “overcome” by a powerful emotion so that you lose control of yourself, but it is not an emotion that comes from being indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God.

    4. See glimpses of heaven – there is only one person in the New Testament who was ever granted the ability to see into the third heaven (quite probably the Apostle Paul), but he could not bring himself to utter what he saw. However, we are told that blessed are those who do not see by anything but faith. They long for what they cannot see.

    5. You are correct in that we cannot change the way you feel. In fact, YOU cannot change the way you feel. Only the Holy Spirit can change the mind and heart of an individual. When He convicts the heart of sin, He brings the penitent sinner to the foot of the cross and they then realize how utterly and totally depraved they are. They do not have visions, they do not feel intoxicated or act like they are drunk or stoned. As for “being in His presence”, the Holy Spirit permanently indwells the true believer til the day of redemption. This means that every part of our lives are worship – either worship to God or worship of ourselves.

    This is NOT semantics. What we share is the difference between an eternity with Christ and eternal damnation apart from Christ. My friend, if your so-called spirituality consists of what you do or how you feel (stoned, intoxicated, drunk, etc.), then you will one day find yourself addressing the command, “Depart from me, for I never knew you!”

    It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God. Who cares whether a person “preaches” in garbage dumps or kisses missing appendages of lepers, this is what “Mother” Teresa of Calcutta did as well. Today, she finds herself in hell because her faith and trust was not in the Lord Jesus Christ alone for her salvation. We can feed the hungry, kiss the ill, and do all kinds of good works, but it will avail to nothing on the day of judgment if we have not been secured by the eternal Father, Who alone is strong to save.

    The Desert Pastor


  36. Ooh! I think I got your panties in a bunch! And that’s okay, because I still love you. The tongue is a powerful thing. It can either speak life or death. I will always choose life! A person is known for how they speak. What they speak is what is in their hearts. I’ve asked for a clean heart, so therefore, I speak life. Speaking death over anyone will not change them. God does not want us to fear Him, He wants us to love Him. I can’t love what I fear. So, you can come after me all you want. The Pharisees went after Jesus and I’m to follow Jesus’ footsteps.

    Shalom & L’chaim!


  37. What god are you talking about, LT? Because it clearly isn’t the One True and Living God of Scripture. Would you say that you’re born again?

    In Christ,


  38. >> Loyaltoker 9 October 2010 2:32pm “God does not want us to fear Him”

    Be quiet you lying spirit.

    It is written:

    Psalm 111:10-112:1 “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.
    Praise the LORD. Blessed is the man who fears the LORD, who finds great delight in his commands.”

    Prov 14:26-27 “He who fears the LORD has a secure fortress, and for his children it will be a refuge. The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, turning a man from the snares of death.”

    I found at least 150 Bible passages asserting or affirming the neccessity of “the fear of the Lord”, spanning the Old covenant (Old Testament) and New Covenant (New Testament).

    That amount of repeating emphasis means “the fear of the Lord” is really important to maintain.

    Sadly, churches have instead tended to promote “the fear of man” by intimidating christians “not to speak against God’s annointed” (teachers who are promoting falsehood), and to “come under the covering” of church leaders (Christians are not permitted to “come under the covering” of anything but the true Jesus Christ revealed through scripture). Respect of people is a separate topic.

    Churches have also promoted “the fear of demons” through all sorts of unbiblical teaching about where they are, what they are doing, their names, hobbies, where they go on their holidays, and other irrelevant imaginations.

    >> LT: “The tongue is a powerful thing. It can either speak life or death”

    No, what is being brought against you is not “the tongue” (the ideas of men), but Gods word through the correct use of Bible verses for good counsel.

    God’s word speaks either life or death according to how you respond to him:

    John 3:16-18 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

    Believing in the false Christ of John Crowder will lead to damnation.

    It there is no fear of the Lord, then you cannot be saved.

    Loyaltoker, if you do not fear the Lord in this life, then you will on Judgement day, and then it will be too late to avoid eternal disaster.

    In that respect all the preceding statements that rebuke and warn you are intended for your safety, so stop bleating as if you are being badly treated.

    >> Loyaltoker 9 October 2010 2:32pm “Ooh! I think I got your panties in a bunch!”

    That vulgar rhetoric reveals the fleshly spirit that is empowering you:

    Eph 5:3-7 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person–such a man is an idolater–has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.
    Therefore do not be partners with them.

    Maybe the only reason God has not killed John Crowder for his blasphemies and abominations is because he is being used as a test to reveal who loves the truth.

    Participating with John Crowder means you are failing the test and loving and practicing falsehood.

    Loyaltoker, stop being a partner with John Crowder (and similar blasphemers) and start passing the test.

    Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.


  39. Amen, seeker3k!

    LT, Ecclesiastes 12:13 says, “Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.”

    As for me, I would seek rather to follow the Word of God in its entirety, than to cherry pick the parts about love that you like.


  40. Well, don’t I just feel like a punching bag today. Because I used a metaphor earlier, I’m now a sexual deviant. Which is interesting. Let me scroll up and see how else you punched me. Oh! Fear in the Bible = healthy respect. The fear it sounds like you preach is that of an abused child. Apparently, if I understand how all of you have been writing, I’m going to hell because of the lanruage I use. Interesting. I have not broken any of the 10 commandments. Even the simple version Jesus gave us which is to Love God with all my heart, my soul, my mind, and my strength. And to love my neighbors as I love myself. So yeah, sorry if I don’t feel loved by my fellow ‘Christians’ when all they do is brow-beat and belittle me. Ever think that’s why people like Ben & John? They don’t judge harshly, they love. Think about it. That’s why I listen to them. Peace to you.


  41. LoyalToker said:

    I have not broken any of the 10 commandments. Even the simple version Jesus gave us which is to Love God with all my heart, my soul, my mind, and my strength. And to love my neighbors as I love myself.

    (I distinctly recall a rich young ruler with the same view of self.)

    And there, LoyalToker, lies the problem. One won’t be receptive to cancer treatment if he believes he has no need of cancer treatment any more than one won’t be receptive to the true Gospel of Jesus Christ if he believes he has no need of the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    “Those oncologists keep beating me up with their harsh words about cancer, pain, suffering, and death.”

    “Those Christians keep beating me up with their harsh words about sin, death, repentance, grace, the fear of God, and holiness.”

    – Pilgrim


  42. LT,

    ONLY the Great Physician has lived life in such a way that He never broke the 10 commandments. For a single person to not only dupe themselves into believing they have never broken the 10 commandments, but then admit such to the world is nothing but mere arrogance.

    You, my friend, have broken the 10 commandments, because all who have ever lived or who will ever live have done so. The Bible makes this very clear. For you to think otherwise shows a lack of respect for the Word of God, a lack of love for the One True God, and a huge amount of deception on your part that you are on a holy footing with God. It does not work that way.

    Our prayer for each who come our way is that they will see the holiness of God and then their own depravity. If you believe you have kept every single one of the 10 commandments from the time you were conceived without one slip-up, then you are grossly duped by the evil one, Satan. However, if you have broken them just once; e.g. one little lie, one time where you did not keep God first in every single aspect of your life (including your thoughts), one time where you looked with lust at another individual, one time where you stole something you did not own, one time where you wished for something you did not have that belonged to another – then you are lost and condemned to a Christless eternity. You have broken one, then you have broken them ALL – James 2:10.

    One final point directly from the Scriptures – 1 John 1:8, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”

    May the Lord Jesus Christ open your eyes and see the reality of eternity.

    Warning of Spiritual Cancer,
    The Desert Pastor


  43. Okay. Desert Pastor, I meant I haven’t broken any of the 10 commandments with the words I’ve used. I’m not dumb enough to believe I’m perfect. Even though God no longer sees my sins because they were washed away my Jesus Christ.

    CD ~ The church I went to before I moved, the pastor was friends with Ben Dunn. (Winnie Banov also) I currently attended a Friends in Harvest church. They have a lot of affliations. I believe it started in Toronto with the revival. Thanks for asking.

    Pilgrim ~ The reason I felt like a punching bag is I don’t believe you fully listened to what I was saying. I feel you have bigotted thoughts towards me because I don’t hate Ben & John, ergo you yell in defense. Instead of taking what I’ve said in whole, you’ve picked it apart.

    If any of you want to have a healthy discussion, I will never have a problem with that, because I believe that is how you grow. But you if keep telling someone they’re wrong ALL the time, you stay stunted and closed-minded. That’s not the way I want to be. So, love to you all. Have a fabulous weekend!


  44. Okay. Desert Pastor, I meant I haven’t broken any of the 10 commandments with the words I’ve used.

    So you’re saying that in your entire life, you’ve never used hateful words toward anybody? Because if you have, then you have indeed broken one of the Ten Commandments. Matthew 5:21-22–“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder’, and ‘whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.”


  45. 4-pointer ~ In the words I have used to defend John & Ben. Again, I’m know that I have broken the 10 commandments. Maybe you should read all of the response.

    CD ~ The sermon was on The season of Transformation. Unfortunately, I am unable to give specfics because I’m currently recovering from surgery and spent about 15 minutes outside of the sanctuary due to pain. Yeah, I say that I am born again and a new creation.


  46. LoyalToker,

    Please don’t misunderstand. No one here is condemning you to hell. And certainly no one is judging you because you do not believe as we do. What we do have is serious concern for you, and where you will spend eternity. Do I disagree with your beliefs? Yes. Do I love you and want God’s best for you? Also, yes. I am sorry to hear you are in pain, and I do hope you have a speedy recovery.

    I once believed very much like you. Love was the overriding philosophy of my “Christian experience”, and those who didn’t show love and acceptance weren’t real “Christians”. And we can certainly practice more agape, every one of us. But I came to see that the true Christian will follow the Jesus Christ of the Bible (“if you love Me you will keep My commandments”(Jn 14:15). Jesus further said that we would be judged for all eternity by His word (the Bible) (Jn. 12:48). And therein lies the real issue. If we are judged for all eternity by what God has said, then that supersedes any and all “experiences”, feelings, or beliefs.

    Unfortunately, the videos above, though perhaps well meaning, are blasphemous. They portray the things of God in a profane, or unholy manner. And God has forbidden it. I don’t know if you recall, but the sons of Aaron chose to worship God in a manner that God did not approve of, and He killed them for it as an example and a warning for us. God does not fool around. He does not take it lightly when we do or teach what He forbids. And that is what we have been trying to bring to your attention in many different ways. LT, you are in great spiritual danger. And we do not want you to perish for all eternity.


  47. Thank you David. You & CD have been the nicest to me on this. I was brought up in a strict religious house. I should have made myself clearer in the beginning. I don’t really use this venacular. Never been part of the drug scene, so its not a part of me. Ben & John were, so they use the speak it. As I have watch them grow, I’ve seen them use this kind of language less.
    The thing I was most against on this thread was the feeling of ‘We are right and if you disagree, you’re going to hell.’ Like I said, it was a feeling. I have learned in my journey that judging people takes away from my joy. I rather have joy. If I don’t like a paticular speaker/minister/pastor, I just don’t listen to them or give them a second thought. The time I give to them, the more power they have over me. I’m not saying you all have to like Ben, John, Cait, Brandon, or any the other people that might have been mentioned in this thread. Ask that God gives them His eyes to see the world with. Ask God to show them a better way of speaking and to be a better ambassadors.
    I was always told that the world would know we were Christians by our love. ❤


  48. Many Christians have not been pursuing truth, they have been pursuing novelty and entertainment, just like people who use drugs, alcohol and prostitutes.

    Satan has worked out ways to approach and entice Christians to become portals for “familiar spirits”, it seems by offering pleasurable sensations and visions, as well as an appeal to pride (eg. the elitism of having spiritual power and experiences).

    Leviticus 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God. (KJV)

    That is a warning to keep away from John Crowder, Benny Hinn, Rick Joyner, Todd Bentley, and other wizards.

    People’s vulnerability for flesh indulgence and pride has been exploited.

    Maybe John Crowder got seduced into his ministry of wizardry this way.

    God’s counsel through scripture is the safeguard against vulnerability.

    Prov 14:27 The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, turning a man from the snares of death.

    Prov 22:5 In the paths of the wicked lie thorns and snares, but he who guards his soul stays far from them.

    Loyaltoker, you are not guarding your soul. You are exposing it to be infiltrated through spirit channellers like John Crowder.

    It is deadly serious and urgent for Christians to repent of any involvement in improper spiritual experiences.

    They might start with uncontrollable laughter and euphoric feeling (“joy”), and end in tears, deception, and uncontrollable abuses.

    I know of 2 Christian people some years ago who deliberately pursued improper spiritual things like Toronto “Blessing” and subsequently committed suicide. One from car exhaust poisoning, the other hanging by rope (after first going into an adulterous relationship).

    It could be attractive to play around with Lucifer’s occult, but difficult to get out of, in the principle of “you reap what you sow”.

    Innocence is a wonderful thing.

    “The world” mocks innocence, and so do many churches, calling the firm determination to remain undefiled “fearful”, “legalistic” and “Pharisaic”.

    Loyaltoker you have been given strong warnings against prostituting yourself to familiar spirits and you are bleating that the warnings “don’t feel loving”, and you prefer the caressing of the “prostitutes” because “it feels loving”.

    “They don’t judge harshly, they love.”

    That is the way of seduction. All prostitutes behave like that, and so do all false teachers who lead astray.

    Prov 7:21-23 With persuasive words she led him astray; she seduced him with her smooth talk. All at once he followed her like an ox going to the slaughter, like a deer stepping into a noose till an arrow pierces his liver, like a bird darting into a snare, little knowing it will cost him his life.

    “Judging people takes away from my joy. I rather have joy”.

    That might be the response of someone caught frolicking with a prostitute.

    Judging is a good idea for anyone found playing with danger.

    Playing around with ministers like John Crowder is danger.

    Loyaltoker, you aren’t thinking properly about this at all.

    Be fearful.

    Be very fearful.

    Then make the correct decision and be safe.

    Flee the evil ministers and their evil ministries.

    Jude 1:22-23 Be merciful to those who doubt; snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear–hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.


  49. This is an example of end time apostasy and blasphemy of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ! Though we hate the works of satan, we are to pray for these lost souls, they are leading others to a horrible damming hell of which their is no coming out!! This is sooooo sad!!


  50. Guys

    Let me get this right, not only are you against John Crowder but also you have issues with Benny Hinn (who has a good reputationin every Church I have ever been to) and also you are against the outpouring in 1994 (a.k.a. The Toronto Blessing). What kind of Churches and theology are you guys comming from (Charismatic, Evangelical, Catholic, Othodox, Protestant)?

    I just want to get things into proportion.



  51. I would be afraid of any church that approves of Benny “the holy ghost machine gun toting” Hinn or any that says the Holy Ghost will make you bark like a dog.


  52. Yeah, Shane, but you have to admit that waiting at the DMV with Hinn would be awesome; a couple minutes later, have Benny throw his coat around a few times, and that long wait becomes a short one.

    Now, about Crowder, there is something that has not been mentioned in this thread: what about when the good times and fun end? And end, it will. We were redeemed for God’s glory, not our own amusement. Now, this is not to mean that life as a Christian is about misery and pain; just that it’s not all Happy Happy Sunshineland.


  53. Kameal,

    To answer very simply –

    1) Yes, we are against John Crowder
    2) Yes, we are against Benny Hinn
    3) I would be afraid to even think about attending any church where either one of these men have a “good reputation”
    4) Yes, we are against the “Bark Like a Dog, Cackle Like a Chicken” so-called Toronto Blessing
    5) We are coming from churches that hold to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura (only the Scriptures) and a theology that squares with the infallible, inerrant Word of God – and NOT from a church or theology that cuts and pastes the Word of God to their own liking.

    We hope that clarifies our position very clearly.


  54. Thanks Desert Pastor,

    I have never heard of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, maybe you could enlighten me, which part of the bible is this?
    So one more thing I have on my heart, you guys clearly have an issue with the “being drunk in the spirit” thing.
    My wife and I were checkin out the Word and I was looking for possible examples of this crazy behaviour when I stumbled across this little gem in Acts.
    (But others in the crowd ridiculed them, saying, “They’re just drunk, that’s all!”)
    Surely this is 100% proof (sorry couldn’t resist the play on words there 🙂 that this drunken phenomenon has been going on all these last 2000 years?
    There are other examples of crazy stuff going on in the bible, do you not think that this can happen in this day and age?



  55. But all things should be done decently and in order.
    (1 Corinthians 14:40 ESV)

    If this verse was actually taken seriously by the pentecostal/charismatic movement it would all but end the movement.


  56. Shane: I take it that you don’t agree with the pentecostal / charismatic movement then.
    I am an evangelical charismatic born from pentecostal parents – I must be pretty doomed according to yourself.



  57. No I don’t agree with it. I grew up in it. I think it is blasphemy to say that the Holy Spirit would cause anyone to be “slain in the spirit” and expose their nakedness (seen it happen). I think it is blasphemous to associate the Holy Spirit with a “machine gun”, “enema”, or any of the other “holy ghost” this or that, that I heard people do many many times in the movement. The vast majority in the pent/chars movement treats the Holy Spirit like He is some type of force that can be summoned and manipulated at will.

    I remember one place in the Bible where God made someone act like an animal.
    Daniel 4. I think all of these “outpouring” and “revivals”are a judgment from God on people that deny sound doctrine and had rather have experiences and signs.

    The majority of pent/chars believe a true believer can lose their salvation. If a person believes that then they are calling Jesus a liar and a failure. If a believer can lose their salvation then Jesus lied about coming to do the Father’s will or He failed to do it.
    John 6

    I hope I don’t come across as sounding bitter, unloving, etc.. but I really don’t like the movement. I don’t have anything against the people themselves but I find their teachings disturbing.

    This may sound weird but I thank God for Todd Bentley. After I got caught up in his teachings and seen his fall I began to study about false teachers and prophets. That was one of the things that God used to lead me out of that movement.

    Scripture alone determines truth and not experiences.

    Here is a link to a series about the charismatic movement. It’s free to download or read. John MacArthur explains the problems with the movement pretty good.

    I don’t consider you “doomed” Kameal. It is not for me to say if you are a true Christian or not. I have never met you nor do I know anything about you. If you trust in Jesus alone for your salvation and not anything you do then I would consider you a fellow Christian.


  58. No place in the bible does it say that we are to toke on a cross, or put your nose up to the page of the bible and snort it. It says to read it and hide it in your heart. I know a few family members that are in this garbage from hell.


  59. The Holy Spirit was given as Helper, Comforter, witness of Jesus Christ. I believe that it is as unfortunate and “appalling” that The Holy Spirit has been underestimated in the leading of disciples and the unregenerate to salvation in the Church today as it is “appalling” that the witness and love of the Holy Spirit is degraded to drug antics. So, doubly appalled.

    But, to flip it around, I am encouraged once again for the need for the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ to be preached and lived out in love in our great nation, the nation that has the greatest religious freedom on this planet, that we would choose to actually believe, preach, and share the gospel, to proclaim Jesus, when men and women have died for us to have religious freedom, and Jesus Himself died for the very freedom our souls so long to attain. Imagine America, the land of the free and the home of the brave, actually preaching a gospel of faith and love and living it out, with the help, comfort, and yes power of The Holy Spirit! The gospel is good news from a good God!

    LT: God created us to have relationship with Him, in fear and in love, in glory. We can’t do this ourselves, no matter how much we fear Him, or how much we experience Him/His love. JESUS IS OUR ONLY HOPE. Jesus answered (the Pharisees), “I am the Way, and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.” (John 14:6)

    Ask the Father. If your relationship with Him is based on Jesus, the cross, it doesn’t matter what John and Ben say or anyone else on this forum says, because you are His and His Holy Spirit will continue to lead you in truth, in His Word, in His love. He loves you so much; He loves you as a son and He will chasten you, correct you, in His love.

    If you find that Jesus is not what, when all this is stripped away, is at the center of your heart towards The Father, then you can ask God, whereever you are, to forgive your sins through Jesus Christ and adopt you as His son. He will lead you in all truth through His Holy Spirit and His Word and He will never leave you nor forsake you.

    What matters most is our relationship with Him. He cares for you as a son. Return to Him, His lovingkindness endures forever. At the cross, and after the cross, forever.


  60. Brandon brings new doctrines every week…tragic. I can’t even look at Brandon Barthrop without feeling totally sick…

    An interesting thing is that John Crowder has said Brandon has nothing to do with him.

    Ben and John don’t sell their “Thoking the Ghost” CD anymore and they have said they will never sell it again…

    Jon and Ben is focusing on their message of perfect perfection by the finsihed work of the Cross nowdays…

    I read the book Mystical Union by John Crowder. I believe the perfectionism that Crowder preach now on Facebook and on his mystical shools is very dangerous and hurtful to baby Christians. Some end up in total denial of reality while others end up in fear of not being saved because they don’t agree on being perfect like he tells them they are.


  61. For sure 2 Timothy 4:3,4 has come to pass and been fulfilled. My story on this: I became friends with a fella on Facebook who also has been going through some particular struggles for a while. Been friends for nearly a year. There were times when he mentioned the Benjamin Dunn website. And later also mentioned John Crowder’s name. He liked listening to the Benjamin Dunn podcasts. During this week as I talked to him one night on my cell he later on questioned me if I’ve ever been “drunk in the Spirit.” I of course had no idea what he was talking about so I tried describing at the times when I sensed God giving me His peace in times of trouble as He was bearing my burden with me and in times when I was drawing close to Him in reading my Bible and spending time with horses. Of course nothing of the sort, those times are sobering. He probably could tell I wasn’t sure what he was saying. I said there were times when I was deeply relaxed and calm and sensed healing vibes too. And warmth. I don’t think I mentioned to him that I also feel safe. I note that he mentioned “like you’re in a trance” again I didn’t know what he was talking about and again try to relate by the times when I was running really fast(also times when I become more attuned to God)I would sense His presence more clearly and feel lighter and more focused on Him and whatever tasks that need to be done. I remember the friend mentioning “heavy with the spirit” or something like that. I decided to look up drunk in the spirit hours after we no longer were talking and I came across a helpful website that described its disturbing nature in the “Toronto Blessing”. I was like: wow. Seriously?! So looked further in just to see if this was actually what my friend was getting into and indeed it is. So I have a prayer request for two people who I came to really care about: Jeremiah Turley who is decieved by the wolves that have brought this disgusting false gospel. And a Muslim friend, he owes student loans for 4,000 dollars and has no job, came from a poor family. I have a burden on my heart for them. I want to share that when I went on the Benjamin website, I looked at one music video and was overcome with sorrow and I wept and groaned in my spirit and was troubled because I was aware that those people in the video were decieved and I felt compassion because they are like sheep having no shepherd and weary and scattered. Then I looked at another one that was something about Jesus being the “life of the party” and there was a supposed picture of Jesus in a silly looking shirt with an acoholic beverage in his hand and it said something about not being able to come formerly to coming to party or whatever. I only went like a quarter into the video and recognized that it’s not of God and said “I’ve seen enough.” I pray that these people will someday wake up. So devastating.


  62. I checked out some of what John Crowder was up to. Watching his Youtube videos leave little need for discernment; it is utter mockery and blasphemy. Any Christian who has opened their Bible can see that. We are charged ‘Be clear minded and self controlled’. I know people who are over in Redding Ca. at Bill Johnson’s church. Bill Johnson refuses to condemn such wicked behaviour, which is unbelievable; such a well known and influential minister should speak out against such demonic nonsense.


  63. You are the man for putting this stuff up, is another video. Just curious are you Pentecostal or Charismatic at all, I am and I hate this stuff that these people do. They are unholy and I don’t think they display what true Holy Spirit manifestation is about: love, conviction, holiness, maybe some crying and definitely some repentance!


  64. Listen everyone, some people do go way overboard with getting drunk/high in the spirit, but it is Biblical if you just read Acts 2 (or many other places). The point I want to address is the fact of the name-calling. I keep hearing people comment over and over calling them “unholy” “satanic” etc..

    How on earth can you call your brothers in Christ these names? And thank many of you so very much for deciding who is going to heaven, and who is going to hell. Because it’s totally your place to do…. All I’m saying is do what you do out of love. That much should be obvious; ranging from a baby-christian to a more grown up christian, that’s an easy principal to grasp. “He who loves his fellow man has fulfilled the law.” (Rom 13:8)

    Loved people love people.

    You are all VERY loved by God. Whether you “toke the ghost” or not does not define you. Live love. Live like Jesus. The best part is you don’t even have to try, it’s who you are. It is your newness. (2 Cor 5:17)

    I love you all,

    Your brother,



  65. Here’s an example of some of the sick people that Dunn and his “ministry” associate with. Some real “fruit” here!


  66. hahahahaa!!!!wooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!! I love this guy!! he is so biblical and orthodox!!! praise God for the good news of the Gospel!!! you guys are so awesome! thanks for your comments! May the Lord bless and keep and shine all over you everyday!!!


  67. I’ve been following some of these blogs regarding Bill Johnson and Ben Crowder over the last few weeks and I’m appalled by both some of the false/unScriptural teachings being disseminated by these men (and others like them) and their followers who have placed these men in a position that only God should hold — that of infallibility.

    It seems that even the followers who admit to fallibiility, however, still blindly defend these men to the detriment of the Church as a whole. This is the opposite of what the early church was told to know, because a “little leaven leavens the whole lump.” By allowing and dismissing false and highly questionable doctrines and behaviors by such influencial men within the Church, we are acting *outside* the will of God. I pray that those who follow these men will come to see the truth of the Word as being the only thing that is infallible, inerrant and defensible.

    Sadly though, (and I take no pleasure in saying this) it seems to me that even the salvation of many of these people is questionable. Jesus says those who love Him will obey Him. He *is* “The Word” .. the very Word that these people take pains to cast a shadow of doubt upon, claiming that those who spend too much time with “The Word” or “Jesus” and not enough time with the Holy Spirit, are puffed up on intellectual arrogance.

    God forgive us for allowing this within the Body. God teach us wisdom and discernment in how to uproot it and take back the ground that has been lost. God help us reach those who have been poisoned by false teachings, and through all of this, Your will be done — not ours. Amen.


  68. You know what think. Jesus is the Way Truth and the Life. Period. I was a JW for 20 years. All of you are no different. We all sin. Jesus died for our sins. It’s that simple. I walked into a Pentacostle Church and everyone was praying in tongues. It wasn’t for me. Everyone else was so happy. I went to a very Calvinist Collage. They told me there was no choice. Some are predestined to everlasting Hell by God. I quit. The bottom line is we can’t fixit. Jesus can and did. Finished. Jesus Loves You.


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