The Mormon “Jesus” is Satan’s brother.

As stated before, DefCon is not interested in delving into the political realm unless the topic is of value to the readers of this blog. This happens to be one of those occasions.

Ordained Southern Baptist minister turned politician (that’s where it all goes wrong) and current presidential candidate Mike Huckabee asked a very good question of Mitt Romney’s faith: “Don’t Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?” (Click here to read more about it, including the LDS spin).

Now this is a great question, but unfortunately–since Huckabee is now a politician–he caved under pressure and apologized. For what? For daring to ask a serious question about one of Mormonism’s many heretical and blasphemous false doctrines. (Read more about Huckabee’s capitulation by clicking here).

I found it interesting that in both articles linked above, the following quote can be found:

“The authoritative Encyclopedia of Mormonism, published in 1992, does not refer to Jesus and Satan as brothers. It speaks of Jesus as the son of God and of Satan as a fallen angel, which is a Biblical account.”

Well of course! Mormonism constantly changes, shuffles, obscures, and hides their true doctrines, and have been doing so for years. So as a public service to the readers of this blog–and those reporters of these articles that apparently don’t know much about Mormonism–I thought I’d share with you some quotes from Mormonism that may clear up the confusion.

The appointment of Jesus to be the Savior of the world was contested by one of the other sons of God.He was called Lucifer, son of the morning.Haughty, ambitious, and covetous of power and glory, this spirit-filled brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Savior of Mankind. Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel Through The Ages, 1945 Edition, Page 15.

Two of our brothers offered to help.Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ . . . said, “Here am I send me” . . . Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, “Behold, here am I, send me . . .”After hearing both sons speak, Heavenly Father said, “I will send the first” (Abraham 3:27). Gospel Principles, 1997 Edition, Pages 17-18.

“Who will redeem the earth, who will go forth and make the sacrifice for the earth and all things it contains?” The eldest son said: “Here am I;” but he did not say “send me.” But the second one, which was “Lucifer, son of the morning,” said, “Lord, here am I, send me, I will redeem every son and daughter of Adam and Eve that lives on the earth, or that ever goes on the earth.” “But,” says the Father, “that will not answer at all. I give each and every individual his agency; all must use that in order to gain exaltation in my kingdom; inasmuch as they have the power of choice they must exercise that power. Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 13, Page 282.

267 thoughts on “The Mormon “Jesus” is Satan’s brother.

  1. Huckabee said, “Don’t Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?”

    The problem with his comment is the word “Don’t” and the question mark.

    Apparently, as you demonstrated, anyone can easily and quickly what Mormons believe. Anyone, including Huckabee and his staff could find out in a minute what is contained on the Church’s public websites mormon.org and lds.org concerning any topic including this one.

    The fact that Huckabee posed a question as if he didn’t know what Mormons believed, seems to indicate that he was being very dishonest in his statement.

    If as an educated, ordained Baptist Minister and presidential candidate he indeed didn’t know anything about the beliefs of his main opponent, he seems to be someone who is seriously uninformed.

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  2. This blog is pathetic. Why is faith-bashing such a popular sport for “Christians”? You have forgotten that you were once the target.

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  3. As far as Huckabee being “dishonest”–I can’t speak for the man, but isn’t it possible that he was using a question to state a fact. (There’s a term for that, but I ain’t no literary type.) Kinda like when somebody says they’re going to Hawai’i next year, and another person in the group says, “Hey John, didn’t you and Maggie go to Hawai’i for your honeymoon?” knowing that John and Maggie went to Hawai’i for their honeymoon, but using that question as a springboard for further discussion.

    Or not. Just puttin’ it out there.

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  4. Who’s angry? It’s just that those who refuse to share the title “Christian”, apparently don’t understand true Christian behavior. For example, the Golden Rule . . .

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  5. Why the hostility towards persons researching and then presenting historical written doctrine published by the mormon church itself?

    Comparing this information to the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments makes common and theological sense. Is this process truly faith bashing or the honest examination of a faith?

    In these cases discernment is of the utmost importance, Remember though when one falls on the wrong side of the Word of God and their hearts intention continues in their rebellion serious issues arise. One such issue would be the Jesus/lucifer brotherhood, another would be oneself becoming his own god and keeping his wife eternally pregnant.

    If such major differences exist between two faiths how could one seriously bring both under the same tent? This would be nonsensical.

    Truth in itself is exclusive. For one thing to be true another must be false. Upon the evidence mormonism in itself fails the test and does not stand up to truth. Therefore it must be false.

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  6. Brenda,

    If you saw your child was about to run out into the middle of the road, and there was a tractor-trailer bearing down on him, would you not run screaming after him. And after that, would you not put such a fear in him that he would never want to run into the road ever again?

    That is what we are doing. We see the Mormon church leading people down paths of destruction for worshiping a false God and a false Christ, and following a false gospel. We are warning people about these things and–we hope–putting such a fear into people about the eternal destination of those who practice Mormonism (or any other false religion) that they will never want to be drawn into it .

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  7. If you want to bring people into your faith, try this:

    1. Strengthen those you already have. If their faith and belief in their own religion is strong enough, no LDS missionary will influence them. Strengthen them in their own doctrine, not by smearing (“exposing the truth”) another.
    2. Attract people with a spirit of kindness, humility, and love (true Christianity). Your methods of scaring or shaming someone into your faith is counter-productive.
    3. Stop the name-calling. It makes you appear desparate.

    The LDS church is one of the fastest growing religions in the country. They don’t use methods of accusation, mockery, and fanaticism. They don’t use anti-(fill in the blank) literature, picketing nor harassment. They quietly present LDS doctrine and scripture and urge people to pray about it.

    I’ve known countless people who’ve converted to “Mormonism”. They say it has transformed their lives. It’s not the missionaries who convert them. It’s the Holy Ghost, who is a witness of truth, who truly converts.

    The LDS church is always willing to reach out to other faiths and support causes that strengthen common values. We think of you as fellow Christians and we appreciate the good that you do in the world. For example, we worked with a number of churches to keep traditional marriage the law in our state by circulating petitions. We join with other churches in disaster cleanup, volunteer and charity work. We are also willing to vote for a president of your faith who demonstrates honesty and integrity.

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  8. “Truth in itself is exclusive. For one thing to be true another must be false.” Absolutely.
    But does it mean you should demean someone who believes differently? Is this what Christ did? He brought a “new” doctrine, much to the outrage of the Saducees and Pharisees. They wouldn’t stop clinging to the traditional laws, (laws that had lost the original spirit and meaning), and were unable to see who he was and what he was teaching them.

    Remember the parable of the Good Samaritan? Samaritans were despised and rejected by society. However, who was the true Christian? Christ defined it by the man’s behavior, not by his affiliations.

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  9. Brenda,

    Mormons are lost. They worship a false God and a false Christ. They are headed for Hell, and it is our duty, as Christians, to let them know that. If we who know the truth keep silent and allow so many who have been deceived by the Mormon church to continue in their lostness, then we will be required to give an account of our silence before God Almighty. That is why we do what we do.

    “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Saducees.” Jesus said this because of all the extra things these men added to the truth of God’s Word. Much like what Joseph Smith did by writing his “Book of Mormon.”

    “This is eternal life, that they know You, the true God, and His Christ.” Since Mormons don’t know the true God as He really is, they do not have eternal life. God does not contradict Himself. If you want, you can compare Jacob 2:23-27 with D&C 132:38-39 and ask yourself if this was the same “God” giving both of these “prophecies.”

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  10. I teach people all the time about what Mormons teach so that when they are approached by a mormon missionary, they will be ready to answer them. I know that even though the mormon church is growing, it is not because of the Holy Spirit, (for even Satan can give good warm feelings!), no, it is because people have not been properly trained in church. They have not been told what it takes to not be a false convert. They go along and see the hypocrisy in the church so they look for good clean-cut people. Being “good” people will not get you into heaven. It is repenting of their sins and putting their faith and trust solely in Jesus Christ of the Bible. In the beginning (all eternity!) was the Word, and the Word was WITH God and the Word WAS GOD! The Word became flesh! Jesus was not a created being that is a created brother of lucifer. Jesus IS GOD! That is why people here try so desperately to reach our mormon friends so that they can get out before it is too late. There is a real hell. Not three levels of heaven. A real HELL. We want no one to be lost. We preach Christ and Him crucified. His blood is sufficient to cover ALL of our sins. The Mormon theology teaches that there are some sins which His blood does not cover. Please return to Jesus of the Bible and Him alone for your salvation! Please contact me if you have any questions. God bless

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  11. Fourpointer,
    Did I suggest you keep silent? No. We are commanded by Christ to go out to teach and baptize (Matt. 28:19-20). Therefore every Christian church should be active in missionary work. It’s just that your methods are so offensive.
    You see, our missionaries are not taught the doctrines of other churches. They don’t go out armed to entrap Catholics or Bapists. Our missionaries are taught the true doctrine of Christ, or in other words, they are prepared to teach what we believe. We don’t research YOUR history, or writings of YOUR ministers. We study our doctrine.

    I have noticed that protestants/evangelicals seem to have a VERY difficult time understanding this.

    So yes, feel free to try to save us. It’s your Christian duty. But instead of constantly harping on where we’re wrong, show us where you’re right. Believe me, you don’t have to tear us down to do so.

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  12. Brian,
    1. No, feelings from Satan and feelings from the Holy Ghost are very different. Satan is the greatest deceiver, but he cannot bring peace and light into one’s soul. Only the Holy Ghost can do that. There is no way you can know what I have felt in my heart. I can only say I know the difference. Satan does not inspire one towards love for others, and the desire to be more Christlike. I can understand your need to believe I’m being deceived though.
    2. You seem to not give people enough credit. Are they not adults? Are they blind to our so-called “flaws” and just following the dark suits and trimmed hair?

    Thank you for sharing your doctrine. Jesus is the only way. He is my savior and the redeemer of all mankind. I agree! We don’t agree on some things, but we do agree on many things. Cannot we celebrate that?

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  13. Fourpointer, I forgot to mention your reference to the different scriptures on polygamy. Do you really think we haven’t noticed them? Yes, it can be confusing.

    All I have is that at different times God permits it and at different times he forbids it. Sometimes I’ve told my children they can cross the street and at other times I’ve told them not to. Yet I’m still the same parent. I don’t know God’s reasons nor his timing. You do have to admit that it was permitted in the Old Testament.

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  14. Brenda,
    You said “do you want to bring people to your faith?” and then you went on to list several things that would help…

    May I suggest that no, I don’t want to “bring them to my faith.” I want God to radically, supernaturally, change their rebellious heart and grant them repentance and faith.

    This is accomplished by the preaching of the gospel message.

    There is a difference between the two scenarios. We aren’t in charge of the second one.

    bob

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  15. Robert,
    Exactly! People don’t convert people. God does it through the Holy Ghost. This is why we should all be praying to know the truth. Let God decide. Thank you!

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  16. Brenda,
    You missed my point. We know the truth. Its found in the bible.

    A religion like the LDS church is false. We know that not by feelings, but by the word and how Mormonism is diametrically opposed to it.

    All I pointed out was that the “preaching of the word” is what God uses to convert people…not our efforts.

    Mormons are lost. Just as lost as anyone. They need what every other God hating self-lover needs…the preaching of the true gospel.

    bob

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  17. Branda,

    The reason Mormon missionaries aren’t taught deeper Mormon doctrine is because if they did, and they told people what the Mormon church really believes about God, about Christ, etc, these people would see that what you believe is actually leading you to Hell. Sorry, that’s just the way it is. That’s why they only come to the people’s door with a King James Bible. Speaking of which–if the LDS church only believes the Bible “so far as it is correctly translated” (4th Article of Faith), then why don’t they use Joseph Smith’s Translation (the so-called “Inspired Version”?)

    Another reason the Mormon church doesn’t want you studying other faiths (like Christianity) is they don’t want you to one day realize that you have been lied to all these years, that God the Father NEVER had a beginning like us, that He is Spirit (John 4:24) and does NOT have a physical body of flesh and bones, that Jesus Christ was NOT the result of physical sexual intercourse between God the Father and Mary, and that there is NO SUCH THING as a Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial heaven–there is only Heaven and Hell. Period.

    And as far as your comment that “I forgot to mention your reference to the different scriptures on polygamy. Do you really think we haven’t noticed them? Yes, it can be confusing. All I have is that at different times God permits it and at different times he forbids it,” the passages I offered talk about the same people–in Jacob chapter 2, God says, “Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.” In D&C 132, THE SAME GOD says, “David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomonand in nothing did they sin…David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me” So, if the “prophet” was correct, then David’s many wives, which thing was an abomination, according to Jacob ch. 2, were given to him by God? Do you really expect me to believe that God would commit an abomination against Himself? So I guess I must be confused. Please explain this contradiction for me.

    See, this is why we research Mormonism. So that we can warn people to avoid it, and we can show those caught up in it why they need to flee from it. And think about this: why does the LDS church want to be lumped in with all the churches that the Second Personage in Joseph’s First Vision told them held creeds which were “an abomination in My sight?” If this was so back then, why is it not true now?

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  18. I was reading Revelations and it said that Michael the archangel was thrown out of heaven and that in his tail he swept away 1/3 of the stars of heaven. Does stars mean other angels or creations of God? Are these ex-angels now demons? Aren’t we all, devils and men, God’s creations? Is God fallible then because he couldn’t forsee that what he was creating would be evil, knowing everything before it happens, and does that make God de facto the creator of evil? He could have stopped or never started, since he knows everything. It seems to me that we, all creation, are in a way kin to the devil as creations from God. Maybe Mitt isn’t so wrong, and you aren’t so right. Please quote me any scripture that would tell me how to understand the origin of the devil, especially as it relates to how God did NOT have a hand in the creation of a fallen angel turned devil, a creature that was “a little higher than man” even. To me that seems a little more perplexing than Satan being related to Christ , that he (Satan) was created by God, and better than man. How can such grotesque evil come from a God who is only love? (John) If you can’t give me scriptural information I might have to go with Mitt on this one.

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  19. Robert, I got your point. What you don’t want to see is that we do have similarities.
    We don’t depend only on “feelings”. Part of the process of communication from God is discerning its source. It must match with the gospel. If I ever felt I was being prompted to steal my neighbor’s BMW, obviously that’s not from God. And please don’t get the idea that we claim to “hear voices” or anything akin to weirdness. We just believe prayer can be a two-way process. When Pres. Bush talks about receiving guidance, I hear what he’s saying.
    People are converted by God, through the Holy Ghost. We are responsible to share the truth with others. But they must establish their own personal relationship with God. It doesn’t come through the missionary. Only through the Spirit of God. But it seems that we’re saying the same thing here.

    As I said, feel free to preach to us, to anyone. Just know that when you dig into obscure quotes of the past and try to smear our prophets or our doctrine, you become offensive to us.
    No, we are not ashamed of anything. We’ve heard it all. What you don’t get is that it doesn’t matter to us.

    What I receive personally from my faith is completely fullfilling to my soul. Whether it’s through the majesty of the scriptures, the sweet humble and quiet goodness of our prophet and other leaders, the personal peace I feel inside when I am living the commandments, or the amazing people with whom I am privileged to associate. I could go on and on. I have raised my children in this church and now see the results in their lives. I am seeing my grandchildren raised in stable homes with two parents committed to Christ. I have some extended family who have drifted away from the church and in almost every case, there were eventual divorces, personal problems and families in turmoil.
    What I’ve SEEN:
    Live within LDS principles – life is calmer, stabler, happier.
    Live outside of LDS principles – your life is more affected by the uncertainties of society. The morality level drops, personal conduct lowers, children struggle more and contention fills the home.
    The gospel is also called the Plan of Happiness, and its true.

    So you see, you can point out “flaws” all day long, and it won’t matter. It just doesn’t do anything, but lower our opinion of you, which frankly, I’d rather not have happen.

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  20. Fourpointer,
    Mormon missionaries know the “deep doctrine”. My three sons, as well as my husband, father, brother, etc. served as full-time missionaries. they knew it all. LDS kids receive a tremendous amount of religious instruction by the time they leave home.

    But perhaps you meant Mormon missionaries don’t TEACH the “deep” stuff. Not at first, no. You don’t teach algebra to a first grader. The basics will come first. Among the basics is how to receive a testimony. How to pray and ask God for the truth. This principle is taught to apply to everything we learn. We have the responsibility to go to God in prayer and ask him. No one expects us to just accept everything blindly. We are expected to do more than just read the scriptures, Bible included. We are to study, ponder and pray about it. Then the Holy Ghost can whisper to our hearts whether it is true.

    Does this process offend you? If so, then you are contrary to the scriptures.

    Did I ever say we are discouraged from studying other religions? No. I said we are not taught about other doctrines from our pulpits.
    If I were interested in Baptist doctrine, wouldn’t you rather I talk to YOU, and not my Bishop?

    Concerning the polygamy issue. I don’t have an answer that will satisfy you. Sorry. But consider this: If you believe that Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon, why would he seemingly contradict himself? It would have been easy to omit the verses in Jacob if he were the author.

    Why do we want to be “lumped in” with you? Because you believe in Christ. We believe in Christ. We both believe he is the one and only Savior. We believe in his example and his life and his atonement.

    YOU ARE AS DIFFERENT FROM US AS WE ARE FROM YOU. But we are willing to share the title Christian because we define it as Believers and Followers of Christ. We don’t put limits on one’s perceived attributes of Christ to be counted as a Christian.

    We believe that TOGETHER we can be a tremendous influence for good in our world. We believe the more people who believe in honesty, morality, integrity, charity, humility, generousity, kindness, and unselfishness, the better.

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  21. Brenda,

    You’re supposed to test the spirits against the WORD, not test the WORD against some spirit that makes you” feel” good.

    1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

    Mormons are not Christians.
    Christians are not Mormons.
    Jesus is not Satan’s brother.
    Men are not angels and angels are not men.

    The cult of Mormonism has been well documented on this blog and others alike.

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  22. Marc,
    We are all the children of God. From Mother Teresa to Adolf Hitler. You see, it all comes down to agency.

    Agency is defined as our freedom of choice. Our time here on earth is for several purposes, one of them is to test us. To be tested, we must all have agency. Otherwise there is no test. Heavenly Father knows all. He knows each of us better than we know ourselves. He knew which of his children would choose evil and which would choose good. But he permits us to come to this earth to demonstrate ourselves to . . . him? No, to ourselves.

    God will not interfere with our agency, therefore he lets those who choose evil to do so, but they do not choose the consequences. There will be a judgment and it will be just and fair to all. And we will have to admit it’s fair because we will have seen our choices. Of course, this is where the atonement and repentence factors in and our total dependence on the grace of God and Christ. None of us have been perfect, except Jesus, and all of us would be doomed with him paying the price for our sins.

    Satan, Lucifer, the devil, rebelled against God and was cast out along with 1/3 of God’s children. Because of that rebellion, they were denied the opportunity to come to this earth and receive bodies. Satan became who he is today. The loss of receiving a body was so grievous that they were willing to occupy the bodies of pigs. Apparently those unembodied “evil” spirits can be present around us because they are mentioned several times in the New Testament.

    References: Isaiah 14:12-20; Luke 10:18; Rev. 12
    Of course there is additional scripture in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price, but I doubt you’re interested in that.

    I detect sarcasm in your references to Mitt Romney. Just know that I’m answering you honestly and sincerely.

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  23. Brenda,

    Yes, I do believe Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon. But he was not speaking by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. He was, I’m afraid, under the influence of Satan. And while it is true, as you said, that it would have been easy for him to omit certain parts that were contradictory to one another, you need to keep one thing in mind. Not to sound harsh or cruel, but Joseph Smith Jr. wasn’t exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer. He was uneducated and illiterate–one of the reasons the LDS church has had to make so many changes (over 3000) to the BOM over the years. And contrary to what the LDS leadership may tell you, these were NOT changes to update or clarify grammar. The 1830 edition contains Joseph’s many errors in syntax (many times he used ‘was’ instead of ‘were’, and ‘is’ instead of ‘are’), and any grammar that was changed was because Joseph did not know how to use it properly (using phrases like “… As I was a-journeying…”). You can read for yourself.

    I know it’s hard to accept that you have been deceived. To admit that you have been lied to about who God is. And I’m sorry, Brenda, but you do not know God if you think He was born and had a beginning just like any regular person. He has always been who He is now, and will be forever more. He did not have to learn how to be God.

    Christians believe the same things about God that we did back in 1820, when Joseph wrote that our creeds were an “abomination” to God. We have not changed our doctrines about God. And we are honest and upfront about our beliefs about God. We don’t hide anything from anybody–and if someone asks us if we believe a certain thing, we don’t dance around it and say, “Oh, you’re not ready for that.” We don’t have to, because we know the truth, and we want people to know the truth as soon as possible. And we don’t lie about our past and tell people “Oh, we’ve never taught that” (e.g., polygamy, racism). If someone in the past or present was wrong about something they taught, we don’t hide the fact that they were wrong.

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  24. Brenda,
    You said that feelings from Satan and feelings from the Holy Ghost are very different. Please provide Scripture references from the Bible on that.

    You said that Satan is the greatest deceiver, but he cannot bring peace and light into one’s soul.

    Here is Scripture for you to read. “And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light” 2 Corinthians 11:14
    As for peace, remember in Revelation how the anti-christ will bring peace before he is finally revealed for who he is? Satan can bring peace and light into ones soul.

    You say, “there is no way you can know what I have felt in my heart.” sure there is. I was a convert to mormonism. I felt that burning in the bosom when I read the Book of Mormon. The feeling was very real and Satan is definitely able to create that feeling. Like you said, he is the great deceiver. Why wouldn’t he want to deceive you into believing mormonism? It is so very contrary to what the Bible says about Jesus.

    You said that Satan does not inspire love towards others (he will bring peace under false pretenses and love is included, he just wants everyone to “get along” by one world religion. His!) and the desire to be more christlike. Don’t forget what Satan said in the Garden of Eden to Eve. That if you eat you will become as gods (mormon writings confirm this).

    You say, you seem to not give people enough credit, are they blind…
    2 Timothy 3:7 says, “ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.” yes they are blind to truth just as I was when I was a mormon. When I finally came to see the truth is was like the whole Bible came alive and I could finally see the errors of mormonism. That is why we try to reach out to our mormon friends because we can see what you have been blinded to.

    Jesus IS the ONLY WAY. But it MUST be the Jesus of the Bible and not the one dreamed up by Joseph Smith. Jesus is not a brother of Lucifer. That is not in the Bible. IF you believe it is, then please show Scripture to back up your claim. I am sorry to tell you this, but we do not agree on many things. The “Christian” walk that you feel you have is a walk after a different Christ. The Jesus that we Christians follow is the narrow path and the narrow gate. Just saying you call on the name of Christ will not get you into heaven. For there are many false prophets and false teachers. There are many good resources for you to check out mormonism from a Christian perspective ( a Bible perspective). I have several post on my blog that discuss errors in mormonism.

    Again, I was a mormon and am very well aware of what was taught by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and all of the other Apostles.

    Last thing. if you don’t research the Christian faith, how do you know it was all apostate? If you do the research, you will see that it has always survived. The Bible tells us that His church will never fail or fall away. Only Joseph Smith has made that claim. Please investigate christianity completely before it is too late.

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  25. Christos,
    Didn’t I say that in my post to Robert?

    The process of receiving communication from God DOES seem to offend you. Because the communication I receive does not match what you perceive as the truth.

    We are continually told to “ask and ye shall receive, knock and ye shall find” but you don’t accept what we receive or find. Yes it does harmonize with the Bible, but not with your interpretation. What is the point of God telling us to ask and knock if it’s so likely to lead us to hell?

    My Bible tells me that God the Father, and Jesus and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings. This was shown at Christ’s baptism. He stood in the water with John, heard his father’s voice speaking from heaven, and saw the Holy Ghost in the form of a dove. Plus the many times Christ prayed to his Father in Heaven. Why he would pray to himself, I can’t imagine.

    My Bible tells me that there are different levels of heaven. John 14:2, 1 Cor 15:40-41.

    My Bible tells me God loves all his children equally and would never send one of them to eternal hell because they NEVER HAD A CHANCE to accept Christ.

    My Bible tells me I can be with my husband, whom I’ve adored for over 30 years, forever. Eccl. 3:14, Matt. 16:19, 1 Cor. 11:11.

    My Bible tells me that Christ organized a church, one church (not many variations of one church) here on the earth. It included apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, and evangelists. With the goal to be united in the faith, that we “henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine”. Eph. 4: 11-14. Also, Eph. 4:5.

    My Bible tells me that Christ still has a body today. He made such point of teaching this to his apostles when he returned to them in his resurrected form. My Bible does not mention that he left his body behind, or discarded it somehow, when he ascended to his Father in Heaven.

    My Bible tells me that I must DO more than just believe. My acceptance of Christ must be manifested by more than just words. But after all I can DO, it is ultimately God’s grace that will save me. James 2

    My Bible tells me that I can ask God for wisdom and if I do so in faith, he will answer me. James 1:5-6.

    We believe, revere, and follow the Bible.

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  26. Fourpointer, We use the KJV bible because it is the most accurate version available that is accepted by the world. We don’t change it in any way. We have access to the Joseph Smith translated version and we do refer to it often because it helps clarify.

    The Joseph Smith translation is not complete. He was killed before he was able to finish.

    Also, we would have no common ground with the rest of Christianity if we did not use a universally accepted version.

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  27. Brenda,

    Do you believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers?
    Are their any post about Mormonism on this blog that you feel are inaccurate or untrue?

    FYI
    I can’t be 100% sure(its been several months since I’ve done any reading on Freemasons) but I believe Joseph Smith was killed by his Masonic brothers for incorporating masonic secrets and rituals into the Mormon Church.

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  28. Well brenda has answered my post, and I read the scriptures referenced. Luke 18:10 says Satan fell from Heaven. Does that mean that he was in heaven? Walking and talkig with God, or did they just not associate? Isn’t heaven supposed to be God’s place? Why would God let such a ner-do-well hang out there?

    I also read the Isaiah 14 passage – “I will exalt my throne above the stars of God.”
    I already read the Revelations 12 passage that says satan “was cast out to into the earth and his angels with him”

    Brenda has posted that ” they (devils) were denied the possibility to come to earth to receive bodies” and that they (devils) were “willing to occupy the bodies of pigs”, and I have read enough of the bible to know that Jesus and his disciples are always casting our devils. Everywhere Jesus goes, it seems that there are always devils to be cast out. Brenda has a point, the devil and his followers like to dwell in bodies of one type or another, which seem a little wierd to me unless there is something more to it.

    So my question is, if Satan is not Christ’s brother, fine, but did they know eachother in heaven, which is what those scriptures above seem to intimate, and then what is their relationship? They both came from heaven it seems to me. Or am I interpreting these scriptures wrong, and if I am, what do they mean? What is Satan’s status if he is not Christ’s brother, by that I mean, how does he have powers? Where did these powers come from? Did God give them to him? Are there other Satan’s out there in the universe, dark beings that somehow have “powers” that rival God’s. If that is so, then God does not seem to be alone, and he doesn’t seem to be so powerful. I am not trying to be blasphemous, but Satan’s mere existance as something that threatens God in any way, dimishes God’s luster, and makes me wonder who is this guy Satan that God should be worried in the least by anything he can do, unless he has power that threatens God, which makes him (satan) Godlike, on some kind of equal footing.

    At least Brenda has some kinf of explanation so far, even if it may be wrong. So what do the other pundits have to say. If brenda is wrong, then what is the right answer for who Satan is and where he came from? We are told where he will go, so that at least is not a problem

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  29. Fourpointer, I’m confused. You said Joseph isn’t the “sharpest knife in the drawer” and he wrote the Book of Mormon. How can both be true? If the book is a fraud, then it has fooled millions. This would be one of the greatest hoaxes of the past two centuries. How could a poor, ‘not-very-bright’, uneducated farmboy do this? He’d never ventured more than a few miles from rural New York state, living in a small town with no money nor means to even buy a book to read about the lands in the far east or central America. And there are witnesses who claim he did it in less than 90 days. Could you do it? Hopefully YOU are a little smarter than a dull knife.

    Because of the the impossibility of Joseph writing the Book of Mormon, your next claim will likely be that the devil did it. (You see, I’ve had this conversation many times.) Why would Satan inspire a book that testifies of Christ? Of forsaking sin, the need for repentance? The fruits of sincere prayer? The blessings of fidelity in marriage? The divinity of the Savior and reinforcement of Biblical teachings? I’m looking for logic here and your claim has none.

    Have you even read it before denying its truth? Could Joseph have done it? No. Would Satan have done it? Please.
    And please forgive Joseph’s many errors in the original version. Like you said, he only had a limited education.

    You, and all the others here, say I am deceived. In Matthew we read to beware of false prophets, which come in sheep’s clothing. So how do you know who the wolves are? It answers it in the next few verses (Matt 7:15-20) “By their fruits ye shall know them.”

    So I look at the fruits of the modern Christian world and I look at the fruits of the LDS world.

    In your world I see well-meaning people but I also see confusion. I see a multitude of different churches, each teaching from the Bible, but teaching different things. I see TV evangelists who seem to be there for entertainment rather than for spiritual depth. I see a very lax attitude towards Sunday worship and Sunday observance. My neighbors are Christians of varying denominations, yet I never see them go to church. I see a lax attitude towards morality. Sex before marriage and unwed motherhood is commonplace. Wearing a cross is a pretty piece of jewelry, but it doesn’t mean much if your life is saying the opposite. But then again, maybe they just had to claim to accept Christ and none of this matters. I also hear God’s name used disrespectfully constantly. I see Christians who have made a sport of mocking other religions, forgetting their own history.

    In my world it’s different. I see order. I could move across the country or to a foreign land and still find church is the same. I see depth. I see a prophet and his apostles who carry such a quiet dignity and reverence about them. They have a spirit of wisdom and humility that I don’t get from your Christian radio programs or TV shows.
    I see people who live their religion 24/7. Who put in long hours preparing talks, lessons, youth activities, service to the poor and aged. You see in our church we all have “jobs”. We teach, coach, visit, lead music, work with the youth, work at the temple. Even our bishop (minister) has a full-time job in addition and volunteers his time for no pay. Our young men devote 2 years of their lives, during the college years, to serve missions at their own cost. I see real growth in personal lives, because much is expected of us. No we aren’t perfect. Yes, we have problems. I just see a lot less of them here.

    So in keeping with Matthew, I have to go by the fruits.

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  30. Brian, So you felt a “burning”? I’ve never felt it; my answers come differently. How long were you a member?

    You say if I don’t study your doctrine, then I’ll never know the truth? I study the Bible. I’ve spent the last two years teaching a Bible class. Isn’t that your handbook?

    My response to you is the same to Fourpointer. I have to believe Matthew and go by the fruits.

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  31. Christos, I believe that Satan and Jesus and we are all the spiritual offspring of God. So that would make us all spirit brothers and sisters. Jesus is also the literal son of God, Mary being the literal mother, so physically they and we are not brothers and sisters.

    (Let me be clear here: We do not teach that anything sexual happened between God and Mary. She was a virgin in every sense of the word.)

    There are too many posts to go back and tell you which ones are untrue. Those that are, I think I answered. However, the cartoon at the top is an insult and not true.

    I’ve never heard of Joseph being killed by Masons. He and his brother Hyrum were killed by a mob of outlaws while they were supposed to be under the protection of the law. The “law” simply looked the other way.

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  32. Jesus is not an offspring of God. Go to John chapter one. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. it later goes on to say that the Word became flesh.

    How much more simple can it be said than that? The Word is Jesus. He is the creator of everything. Satan is a fallen angel and angels are CREATED Beings! hence, they are NOT brothers. Jesus is God, Satan is not! other than Satan is the God of this world. As far as fruits, there are many “good” people out in the world that do good things. Doing good things will not get you into heaven. Again, why would Satan write or inspire a book like the BofM? Because it deceives all of its readers. They “think” they are following Jesus. God does not hear the prayers of the unrighteous person. As far as the burning int he bosom, if you have not felt it, then that is just more proof of how mormons have “changed” their story. It used to be you would KNOW that the Bood of mormon was true BECAUSE you would FEEL a BURNING IN THE BOSOM. That is teaching from Joseph Smith. And to think that your god is not powerful enough to ensure that Joseph Smith could complete his version of the bible before he was killed should show that God was not in control on that matter. If it was from God, Joseph Smith would have completed it and it would not have had so many, many, many revisions to it. To say that the King James Version of the Bible is the only acceptable version and that interpretation can only come from Mormons is not valid. With that argument, all the people who lived prior to 1611AD would have had nothing to go by. What about the great apostacy that Joseph Smith claims that ALL churches were apostate? Even though God’s Word in the BIBLE says that His Word will NEVER FAIL? There are many people who are sincerely wrong. They are sincere in their beliefs but are sincerely wrong. There is only ONE Heaven and ONE Hell. You must read the Scriptures in whole not out of context as you have done. Jesus is not a brother of Satan. Jesus is GOD. There is ONE God in Three Persons. Three Distinct God’s yet ONE GOD. I know it does not make sense to a Mormon but you must take it by faith. You take by faith everything that Joseph Smith will tell you but you won’t listen to what the Bible tells you. Satan is the great deceiver.

    Mark, I know you said Brenda answered your questions but I was in the Mormon church and am fully aware of what they teach. Please listen to reason. Read John 1:1-16. Read it over and over again and tell me if you still believe it is possible for Jesus to be the brother of Satan.

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  33. This is for Brenda and other Mormons. These are not made up as you can see they are completely documented with the Mormons own material. If they say they no longer teach these things, then they still must remember that their founder Joseph Smith DID teach these things as well as the other so called prophets. If a prophet speaks anything contrary to the Bible he is a false prophet. Even if it is his own opinion (see, I have been a mormon myself), it is still something taught. Do not follow after false prophets regardless of how similar it sounds to Christianity.

    THE PRE EXISTENCE OF JESUS CHRIST.

    Mormonism: The Mormon Jesus was born in the heavens as a spirit-child of “heavenly father” named Elohim, an exalted man, and one of his spirit-wives by sexual relations. Lucifer, who became Satan the Devil, is the brother of this Mormon Jesus. (The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15; History of the Church, Vol 6 p. 308, 474.).

    Christianity: Jesus Christ is not created, but is eternal, and has always been God. (See Timothy 1: 16: John 1: 1-3; Micah 5:2 1 Timothy 3:16; Titus 2:13; Revelation 1:8; Matt. 1:23).

    THE EARTHLY BIRTH

    Mormonism: Elohim, the Mormon heavenly father, came to this earth in human form and had sex relations with the Virgin Mary, who was no longer a virgin, and she gave birth to the Mormon Jesus as a result. (See Doctrines of Salvation Vol. 1;18; Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 158; and Journal of Discourses 8: 115 quoting Brigham

    Christianity: Jesus Christ was born of the Virgin Mary as “Emmanuel”, “God with us.” (See Matt. 1:23 ) Jesus was conceived in the Virgin Mary’s womb when the Holy Spirit came upon her.) See Matt. 1 :20).

    THE EARTHLY LIFE OF JESUS CHRIST

    Mormonism: The Mormon Jesus was the bridegroom at Cana of Galilee according to the Mormon interpretation of John 2: 1-2 and was therefore married to at least one wife while on earth. (See Journal of Discourses, Vol 2, p. 82 quoting Orson Hyde (Apostle).

    Christianity: There is no biblical record of Jesus marrying. A reading of the account in John 2:1-12 shows Jesus was “invited” to the wedding. Bridegrooms do not receive invitations to their own weddings!

    YOUR MOTHER WHICH ART IN HEAVEN? MRS. GOD

    Mormonism: teaches that God the father has many wives in heaven, thereby resulting in not only a father in heaven , but a mother-in-heaven Mormon doctrine. All Mormons on earth today believe they were originally the result of such sexual, heavenly union. (See Orson Pratt. The Seer, p37; also Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie, p. 516)

    Christianity: The Bible has absolutely no mention of any such “wives” of God the Father.

    VIEW OF THE BIBLE

    Mormonism: “Ignorant translators, careless subscribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors–many plain and precious things were deleted, in consequence of which error and falsehood poured into the various churches. One of the greatest heresies of modern Christendom is the unfounded assumption that the bible contains all the inspired teachings now extant among men.” (Mormon Doctrine p. 82, 83).
    my note: doesn’t this sound exactly like something Satan would say about the Bible?

    Christianity: “All scripture is given by God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. “2 Timothy 3: 16-17).

    “Thy word is very pure”. (Psalms 119: 140)

    BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD AND GENEALOGY

    Mormonism: Mormons research genealogies and get baptized in their temples in proxy for their dead relatives. They misinterpret 1 Corinthians 15: 29 “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

    Christianity: Doing genealogies is useless for the Christian. (See 1 Timothy 1 :3 , 4) 1 Corinthians, Chapter 15, is on the subject of the resurrection, not baptism. I Cor. 15: 29 shows the folly of THOSE (not WE believers but THOSE unbelievers)who denied the resurrection, and yet practiced the pagan rite of “baptism for the dead”. Hebrews 9:27 shows that once a person is dead, he faces judgment. Nothing the living do can change this.

    VIEW OF THE CHURCH

    Mormonism: There is no salvation outside the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” (Mormon Doctrine p. 670).

    All other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God; and any person who receives baptism or the Lord’s Supper from their hands will highly offend God; for He looks upon them as most corrupt of all people. Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the whore of Babylon.” (The Seer, p. 255).
    why do I keep seeing Satan’s hand in all of this wording?

    Christianity: The Church in the Bible is the entire born- again body of believers in the true Jesus Christ of the Bible. (Almighty God manifested in the flesh). It is not a man- made organization with a false prophet at it’s head!

    The true church partakes of the Lord’s Supper of bread and wine, not water as the Mormons use. (See John 3: 3-7; Ephesians 1:22,23; 4: 11-16; Matthew 26: 26-30.)

    Mormons where do you get your authority?
    One of the publications that one might receive if inquiring about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a book titled GOSPEL PRINCIPLES.
    This book stresses the importance of the Priesthood to the Mormon Church. During our many discussions with the Mormon Missionaries the topic has sooner or later turned to the question of authority.
    Chapter 14, titled “PRIESTHOOD ORGANIZATION” opens with the statement;
    “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is governed by the priesthood.”
    Further down in this same opening paragraph we read:
    “Men young and old are baptized into the Church, and when they are judged worthy, they are ordained to the priesthood. They are given the authority to act for the Lord and to do his work on the earth.” (Gospel Principles, 1978, Revised 1979 edition, page 79)
    Page 81, under the title DEACON we find that …
    “when a boy has been baptized and confirmed a member of the Church and is worthy, he may be ordained to the office of deacon when he is twelve years old.”
    This is one of the offices of the Aaronic Priesthood.
    Along with the Aaronic Priesthood, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also believes in the greater priesthood, called the Melchizedek Priesthood. Those who hold the lesser priesthood, the Aaronic Priesthood, “have authority to administer the outward ordinances of faith, repentance, and baptism…” (Gospel Principles, pg 79)
    We can see from these brief statements that the authority of the Priesthood is important to the Mormon Church. It is not the intention of this post to discuss the various aspects of the two priesthoods of the Mormon Church, but I would like to take a close look and see if the authority of the priesthoods ever really existed in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
    Now we will turn to page 124, Chapter 20, titled BAPTISM. Here we read that baptism “is the first ordinance of the gospel.” On this same page is the statement
    “WE MUST BE BAPTIZED FOR THE REMISSION OF OUR SINS” and “If we repent, and are baptized, our sins are forgiven through the atonement of Jesus Christ.”
    Along with the priesthood, baptism is important in the Mormon church, and we are told in Gospel Principles, page 127, that we must be baptized: to become members of the church, before we can receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, to show obedience and to enter the celestial kingdom.
    The following statements on page 128 clearly show the importance of baptism and authority in the Mormon Church:
    “Our sinful life ends when we are baptized.” “After baptism we start a new life.” “Baptism by immersion by one having the proper authority is the only true and acceptable way of being baptized.” “Every person who has reached eight years of age and is accountable, or responsible, for his actions should be baptized.”

    Now we will turn to the reference titled: PRIESTHOOD RESTORED found in the pamphlet
    THE PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH’S TESTIMONY. (pp. 16-17, 1984 ed.)
    John the Baptist, as a messenger from heaven, descended and conferred the Priesthood of Aaron on Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery and then commanded them “to go and be baptized” and gave them directions that Joseph Smith should baptize Oliver Cowdery, and that afterwards Oliver Cowdery should baptize Joseph Smith.
    The story continues after they were baptized in this manner, then Joseph Smith ordained Oliver Cowdery to the Aaronic Priesthood and afterwards Oliver Cowdery ordained Joseph Smith to the same Priesthood. What’s wrong with this story?
    Why did “John the Baptist” neglect to baptize Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery? Surely, if it was John the Baptist, he as a messenger from heaven under the direction of Peter, James and John (according to the above-mentioned Mormon tract on Joseph Smith’s TESTIMONY) would have known that an unbaptized person could not hold the Priesthood. Even today, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would NOT bestow the Aaronic Priesthood on an unbaptized (and therefore “unsaved”) person. Surely, John the Baptist would have known that–after all he was John the BAPTIST!
    Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery washed away their priesthood conferred on them by “John the Baptist”. Joseph Smith, an unbaptized person, baptized Oliver Cowdery and therefore Oliver Cowdery’s baptism was invalid and so was Joseph’s baptism invalid. Consequently, neither had the authority to ordain each other to the Aaronic Priesthood.
    All this confusion could have been avoided IF “John the Baptist” had baptized them and then conferred the Aaronic Priesthood on each of them if “John the Baptist” had the authority to do so in the first place. This makes one wonder who this “messenger from heaven” would have been if the story was true. 2 Corinthians 11:14 comes to mind at this point.
    “And do not marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.” KJV

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  34. Brenda,

    Yes, the book of Mormon has deceived millions of people. All of these people, if they followed after the “God” of Mormonism, are now spending an eternity in Hell. That includes Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Bruce McConkie, Spencer Kimball, and all those that were deceived by these men. And yes, it is one of the greatest hoaxes of the last two centuries. The Kinderhook Plates attest to the fact that Joseph was not given any “gift of translating.” Sorry, that’s just how it is. Satan used an uneducated farm boy who was fascinated with the occult, who had a huge imagination (and an even bigger ego), and showed him how to deceive the world by using a false God, a false Christ, and a false gospel.

    As far as the question of why Satan would write a book that promotes “forsaking sin and the need for repentance”–a person, no matter how late in life, can repent of their sins and forsake them. But their former sins are still with them. And if they seek forgiveness from a “God” who is not the true God, and if they do not believe in the true Christ, then all their repentance, all their forsaking of sin, all their good works, all their prayers, their wholesome life, their happy family, their fidelity in marriage—in fact, all of their righteousness is nothing more than “filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6).

    Also: how could Joseph’s lack of education be an excuse for the many errors in the 1830 Book of Mormon? After all, didn’t the words appear to him, one at a time, and didn’t they remain until he spoke it correctly to Oliver Cowdry, and Oliver Cowdry wrote it correctly? And didn’t Joseph himself say that the Book of Mormon was “the most correct of any book ever written?” If this was “the most correct book ever”, then how could it have hundreds of grammatical mistakes? These weren’t just changes to update language; these were mistakes that needed to be corrected.

    And as far as using the KJV instead of the JST—why use a faulty translation, when you can show them the truth right away? I know the old “milk before meat” argument the LDS church likes to use. I don’t buy it. Because when Jesus came, He overturned the Pharisees’ way of thinking, and all their false beliefs in an instant. (And a side note—the KJV is no longer the most widely used translation. It isn’t even the most accurate. There are many others that are just as widely used, and many times they are more accurate.

    You say that there is much “confusion” among Christian denominations. I trust you have heard of the Community of Christ (an LDS offshoot in Missouri)? The FLDS in Arizona and Colorado, and all of the other LDS offshoots who claim to hold more of Joseph Smith’s teachings than the last one? You see, there is just as much confusion among LDS sects as you claim there is among Christian denominations.

    So, again, the question: if there is no difference in what Christian churches say about God today, and what they said in 1820 when Joseph had his first “vision” of “God” telling him that our creeds were an abomination—if we are holding to those same abominable creeds, then why does the LDS church want to cozy up to us Christians now, when they have been hating us for more than 180 years?

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  35. Well said, Fourpointer! One of the hard things for a mormon to do, especially one who has been in it for a long time, is to have to admit that they were wrong all those years. But that is what they must do. They must tell God that they have not been following the true God of the Bible and that they must forsake Joseph Smith and the LDS Church. obviously, the fact that divorce is highest amongst Mormons in the nation has not been mentioned yet either. God hates divorce!! Got to admit though, Christians are just as bad when it comes to being obedient to His Word. And we know the Truth and many still do not do it.

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  36. Got to admit though, Christians are just as bad when it comes to being obedient to His Word. And we know the Truth and many still do not do it.

    I hear ya, Brian. We are imperfect people trying to understand–and live out–the perfect word of God. And we stumble, and we fall, and we ask God to pick us back up and dust us off and set our feet back on the paths of righteousness. The LDS church has been very successful over the years making people think that if you just read Joseph’s little book that all your problems will just go away, and everything will be all sunshine and puppies.

    Problem is, along with that little book comes a whole history of adultery, polygamy, failed prophecies, murder, etc. that has to be accounted for. Which isn’t to say that those in Christ’s true church haven’t been perfect. The difference is we don’t claim to be perfect. We don’t claim to be speaking for God. We don’t claim that whatever we say comes right from the lips of God Himself. We ask that he show us from His word what He would have us to learn. We don’t go around saying that our words are Scripture, then ask our followers to deny we ever said them (Adam-God, God the Father having sex with Mary, etc).

    I appreciate your perspective as a former Mormon (by the way, do you think they still keep your name on their rolls?), and would love to hear sometime about how you came to find the truth.

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  37. Brian, We’re letting our posts get too long, (me too). I don’t think we’re really reading what each other is writing.

    Your arguments don’t make sense. Two examples (out of many):

    1. “In the beginning was the Word . . . etc.” Why you don’t think we believe this, escapes me. Jesus Christ is the Word. He created this world. He was WITH God. (But a separate being.) He was God. Yes, the god of this world. He was still a spirit because he hadn’t been born to Mary yet. He became flesh when he received his body at birth. We were spirits too and received our bodies at birth also.

    2. We use the KJV because it is one of the oldest (possibly least tampered with) versions that is accepted by the rest of the world. Fourpointer says there are MORE accurate versions which says there are versions LESS accurate. Yet you claim the Bible is infallible. The LDS church did not write, edit, change the KJV in any way. It’s your Bible. You seem to criticize us for using your Bible.

    I could address every point and am restraining myself here.

    Everything I say, and document Biblically, you turn around and use against me. You say, “Follow the Bible!” but when I do, you condemn me.

    What you’re really saying is “Follow the Bible AS WE DO!” Sorry, your way produces less desirable fruits. I have to go by what I see around me which doesn’t match what you’re saying. I still have to go with Matthew 7.

    I tried to read your long post comparing Mormonism and Christianity. But I had to stop because you’re repeating several very tired lies about what we believe. This comparison is repeated over and over online and it’s just too full of inaccuracies to be worth reading.

    Protestant/Evangelicals claim to “love” us. I’m not feeling loved.

    Brian, How long were you LDS?

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  38. In reading and rereading John 1 1-16, I find nothing that contradicts with LDS doctrine. Never have. Sorry, this probably is really frustrating to you all.

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  39. Dear Brenda:

    I agree, there are too many trails in this post to follow them all, so I would like to pop in and address one issue. You cited the lifestyles of Mormons that you know as “fruits” that prove that Mormonism is true. Does this conversely mean that (evangelical) Christianity isn’t? Be honest, you won’t offend me.

    There are many, many Mormons who do not live up to that standard and bring shame upon their (your) faith. I am sure that you will concede this.

    I can cite numerous families that live their faith genuinely that you could also classify as good “fruits” (Matt. 7) that are not Mormon. Devout Christians, devout Catholics, devout Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc.

    Behavior is not always a true barometer of genuine conversion to the true faith. What do you do with the “very good” Hindu?

    You see, if a person lives a very moral life but dies in their sin, they still go to hell. This includes following a false Jesus, because a false Jesus cannot save you from your sin. Satan is very clever in leading people to believe that their own works and deeds are proof they are “saved” or going to Heaven. There are many people who (in the world’s standard) are very good people, but they don’t even believe in God.

    Citing examples of good behavior is also what the Jehovah’s Witnesses do to “prove” they’re in the true faith. So are you right or are they right?

    As you point us to look at the “fruits” on the LDS tree, you are really pointing us to the pretty flowers, but not the “fruit.”

    Some of the “fruits” of Mormonism are:
    * The doctrine of Blood Atonement.
    * The Mountain Meadows Massacre.
    * The doctrine of polygamy.
    * The countless women who suffered from polygamy.
    * Joseph Smith’s multiple marriages (including one to a 14 year old girl).
    * Mormonism’s racial prejudice toward the African race (until 1978) teaching that blacks are cursed.
    * Joseph Smith’s false prophecies.
    * The Adam-God doctrine.
    * The false doctrine that God was once a man.
    * The false doctrine that we can become gods.
    * The false doctrine that Jesus was conceived by sexual relations between God the Father and His own daughter Mary.
    * The false doctrine that Jesus is not eternal, but a created being.
    * The false doctrine that Christ’s sacrifice was insufficient to cleanse all sins (the root of Blood Atonement).

    And the “fruit” list goes on and on…

    You see, Brenda, doctrine is very important because doctrine defines who Jesus is. The true Jesus is the only way to the Father. If you follow a counterfeit Jesus, your trust for salvation is in something that cannot save you. Mormonism’s countless false teachings and doctrines are its “fruits.”

    Finally, I do love Mormons. I care for them because I have known many throughout my life and currently have some in my family. (I have yet to meet a Mormon I didn’t like!) I care deeply where they will spend eternity. I would be an unloving fool to keep my mouth shut if I have the truth and not share it with those who are perishing, whether they be an Atheist, a Satanist, a Muslim, or a Mormon. To accuse someone of attacking you and being unloving because they care enough to tell you the truth, is not a genuine argument, but a diversion from the topic.

    Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? Galatians 4:16 (KJV)

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  40. Brenda,

    If you look at my replies to your posts, you will see that I have indeed read your posts and replied accordingly. I would ask that you please reread what I and others have written, so you may judge for yourself whether what you have is the truth or not. Truth–that is the greatest fruit a church can produce. And it is one the LDS church does not produce.

    As far as the KJV, you said it is “the least tampered-with” translation. That is not the issue. The issue is not about tampering with a translation. It is about proper translation of the Greek/Hebrew texts. There are some translations that are better then the KJV, there are some that are not as good. But I will tell you this much in all honesty: I have read the JST, and it is not a “translation” or “retranslation” or update of anything. It is simply Joseph Smith going through and picking out those passages that didn’t fit his scheme and changing them to make them say something they didn’t. However, Joseph Smith did edit and rewrite the KJV, and called it the “Inspired Version.”

    As long as we’re talking about John chapter 1, I do believe I need to show you something. John 1:3 says “All things were made by him [Christ]; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” This “all things” includes the angels. Who was an angel? Lucifer. Therefore, even Lucifer was created by Christ. See Nehemiah 9:6 and Hebrews ch.1. Now, since Lucifer was created by Christ, these two could not be brothers. I know the LDS church teaches a “pre-mortal existence.” But this was another invention of Joseph Smith’s imagination, probably aided by Satan.

    This will be my last post on this subject. I will pray for you, Brenda, hoping that God will open your eyes to the truth, that He will bring you out of Mormonism, so that you in turn can show other Mormons how the LDS church has deceived so many people over the years. That you will see that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, and that the Book of Mormon is one of the largest hoaxes ever played on the world.

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  41. We can go in circles forever. It boils down to one interpretation of the Bible against another.

    But your interpretion sends innocent people to hell. Who can accept that?

    The main reason I enter these blogs is that even though I’ve been LDS for over 50 years, non-LDS people keep telling me what I believe. Don’t TELL me what I believe; ASK me what I believe. I know what the LDS church teaches. I know better than you. And much of what you say about us is wrong.

    Our prophets were/are not perfect men. No one ever said they were. Moses and Abraham, Peter and Paul were not perfect. Many of Joseph Smith’s mistakes are well documented in our Doctrine and Covenants. There was only one perfect man on earth.

    You overlook all the marvelous words that come out of a prophet’s mouth and focus on a few mistakes. Did they make mistakes? Of course. (I think it was Joseph F. Smith who said we’d never reach the moon. Later he was happy to admit he was wrong.) They’re not perfect, but I’d bet they’re a lot closer to perfection than I am and I’ve learned throughout my life that following their counsel works. It really works. Don’t tell me I’m deceived; I know what I know.

    Your preachers and ministers obviously are not immune to mistakes either. Yes, yes, your authority is the Bible, with all it’s interpretations. Our authority is the scriptures, the prophet, and prayer.

    Take a few minutes and read what our prophet says today. Read what the apostles say today. I never hear your references to our CURRENT talks and sermons.

    It’s all in lds.org.

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  42. This is from:
    http://www.equippingchristians.com/UnderstandingChristianese.html

    Maybe this will help.

    Understanding “Christianese”

    As a Latter-day Saint you are familiar with many theological terms which you’ve learned in Primary, Gospel Doctrine, Elder’s Quorum, Sacrament Meeting, General Conference, et al.. In fact, you’ve most likely heard your Christian friends or Christian radio broadcasts use these same words. It is natural to assume that the words mean the same thing as you have understood them to be. However, consider when you have invited your non-Mormon friend to a special presentation at the stake house or stake center and he thought you were all going out to eat! You might be discussing with an LDS friend the number of wards in your community and a non-Mormon overhearing the conversation would assume you were speaking of the electoral division of the city.

    There is a special lingo native to any group; be it cultural, national, religious, or otherwise. That makes it completely possible for two people to be speaking the same language yet not be communicating. This article is intended to help you understand what terms familiar to LDS mean to mainstream Christians. The Bible references provided are to give you an understanding of the basis for the following Christian beliefs. The list of scriptures is not exhaustive; just a sampling.

    Godhead:

    Mormonism: This means God the Father, his son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, each one is an individual god.

    Christianity: It means the “Trinity;” three divine Persons who are of the same substance; three persons, but one God.

    God or Heavenly Father:

    Mormonism: This means an exalted man with a body of flesh and bone who is the literal father of everyone’s spirit.

    Christianity: God the Father is Spirit and cannot be seen (Timothy 1:17,Colossians 1:15, Luke 24:39, John 1:18). We become His children by adoption (Romans 8:15, 23; Galatians 4:5; Ephesians 1:5).

    Jesus:

    Mormonism: Jesus is literally the firstborn of all heavenly Father’s and Mother(s)’ spirit children. He is every individual’s spirit brother, including Lucifer’s and the third of the host of heaven who were cast out. He was born in order to get a body, to redeem man from the effects of sin, and to work out his own salvation as part of The Plan.

    Christianity: Jesus is God incarnate. He always existed as God (Philippians 2:6-8, 1 Timothy 3:15-16, John 1:1). He created the universe and everything in it (Colossians 1:16). We become brothers by adoption. He came specifically as a sacrifice for our sins and to redeem us from death and hell.

    The Holy Spirit:

    Mormonism: The Holy Ghost is a person of spirit. When I was Mormon I was taught that the Holy Ghost would eventually be born and get a physical body, probably during the millennium. The Holy Ghost’s purpose is to indicate truth through a burning in the bosom. He also testifies of the truthfulness of the LDS Church and the Book of Mormon. He guides and directs faithful members of the Church and withdraws from them when they are not living in a worthy manner.

    Christianity: The Holy Ghost is more commonly referred to as the Holy Spirit. He is the third Person of the Trinity. He convicts the world of guilt (John 16:8-11), brings glory to Jesus (John 16:14), indwells believers (takes up residence inside the person) and makes the believer a member of Christ’s church (1 Corinthians 6:19, 12:13, Ephesians 1:12-14) regenerates believers (John 6:63, Titus 3:5, Galatians 5:25), bestows spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:3-1), instructs (John 14:26), empowers believers for godly living, comforts, guides, and directs believers.

    Salvation:

    Mormonism: There are two kinds of salvation; general and specific. General salvation is provided through the atonement—everyone, regardless of personal righteousness, will receive a resurrected body. Specific salvation is earned through obedience to the restored gospel. This is called “exaltation;” that is, living in the presence of Heavenly Father eternally and becoming as he is with the ability to procreate spirit children and oragnize your own worlds.

    Christianity: A common phrase used is “getting saved.” You’ve probably heard a Christian say, “I got saved on (fill-in-the-date).” By this he means the day he accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. This means he prayed for forgiveness of sin and asked for salvation. He is trusting completely on Jesus alone, not his own merit, to put him in right-standing with God. Salvation for the Christian is once and for all; a done deal. He has been sealed by the Holy Spirit as belonging to Christ and will live eternally in heaven with the Father and Jesus when he dies.

    Satan/Lucifer:

    Mormonism: Second-born (or close) spirit son of Heavenly Father. A spirit being that is a spirit brother to all people and to fallen angels (the third of the host of heaven that followed Lucifer).

    Christianity: A created being; a Cherub (Ezekiel 28:14). Not a “spirit brother of man,” but a whole different creature in species and nature.

    ———————

    Copyright © 2006 Equipping Christians Ministries

    All Rights Reserved

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  43. Christos,
    Fairly accurate. Thank you. However, concerning the Holy Ghost, that he will someday receive a body is assumed. Also, I’d say the timing (millenium) is also an assumption. The Spirit isn’t ONLY felt by a “burning of the bosom”.

    And he can direct or guide anyone, not just LDS. (Remember Columbus?) Too often, we don’t recognize the Spirit (Holy Ghost), but just chalk it up to intuition, or a hunch, or just a feeling. If you start paying attention to those feelings, and acting on them as long as they fit with Christian beliefs, you’ll start recognizing them more and more. When you pray, ask that you be able to recognize the Holy Ghost in your life.

    This is what we believe. Am I offending anyone here?

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  44. Brenda, you come out and say I am lying on all of the things that I have documented proof of. Doesn’t make sense. Not taken out of context, just written the way it was spoken of by your prophets. You mentioned that your prophets were just men and capable of making mistakes, and you compare that to the mistakes by todays pastors. The difference is, we don’t claim to be prophets of God. The bible tells us that if just one prophecy does not come true then that man is a false prophet and do not follow him. The men who claim to be prophets are not speaking in-line with what the Bible says so therefore, they are false prophets and the whole religion stands or falls on the basis of what they say. If I make things up, fine, call me a liar. But I have documented proof on everything that I have said here. Documented by your own books. D&C, BofM, Ensign and more. If I am lying then the men who said it were lying too and again, they must be considered false prophets!

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  45. Brian, Read what our prophets and apostles are saying TODAY. This is who we follow.

    And yes, there are inaccuracies in your post. We do not teach that Jesus was married. We don’t teach it one way or the other. We teach nothing about sex in heaven or sex with Mary. Mary was a virgin. Your assumptions are offensive.

    Guess you’re not going to tell me how long you were a member.

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  46. I would rather go with the prophets in the Bible, for their words never needed to be changed! And the fact that your church is not teaching that Jesus was married, you might want to ask why your prophet taught it as though it were true! You continue to dodge the fact that Jesus of mormonism IS NOT the same Jesus as in the Bible. why is that?

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  47. I know I said I wasn’t going to post on this any more, but I feel I must respond. Brenda said, “We do not teach that Jesus was married. We don’t teach it one way or the other.” This is not to say that many Mormon prophets through the years haven’t taught this.

    Gentlemen, that is as plain as the translators, or different councils over this Scripture, are allow it to go to the world, but the thing is there; it is told; Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana of Galilee, and he told them what to do… Now there was actually a marriage; and if Jesus was not the bridegroom on that occasion, please tell who was. If any man can show this, and prove that it was not the Savior of the world, then I will acknowledge I am in error. We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into the relation whereby he could see his seed, before he was crucified.” Journal of Discourses 2:82, Orson Hyde, October 6, 1854

    “I discover that some of the Eastern papers represent me as a great blasphemer, because I said, in my lecture on Marriage, at our last Conference, that Jesus Christ was married at Cana of Galilee, that Mary, Martha, and others were his wives, and that he begat children.” Journal of Discourses 2:210, Orson Hyde, March 18, 1855

    “It will be borne in mind that once on a time, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and on a careful reading of that transaction, it will be discovered that no less a person than Jesus Christ was married on that occasion.” Journal of Discourses 4:259, Orson Hyde

    “Evening Meeting. Prayer By E Stephenson. Joseph F Smith spoke One hour & 25 M. He spoke upon the Marriage in Cana at Galilee. He thought Jesus was the Bridgegroom and Mary & Martha the brides…He did not think that Jesus who decended throug Poligamous families from Abraham down & who fulfilled all the Law even baptism by immersion would have lived and died without being married.” Wilford Woodruff’s Journal 8:187, July 22, 1883 (misspellings included in original)

    When Joseph Fielding Smith was asked if this meant that Christ had children, Joseph Fielding Smith wrote, “Yes! But do not preach it! The Lord advised us not to cast pearls before swine!” (J. Ricks Smith, “Letter to Joseph Fielding Smith, March 17, 1963, with Reply.”)

    And as far as God the Father having sex with Mary, and God the Father being the literal father of Christ:

    Thus, God the Father became the literal father of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the only person on earth to be born of a mortal mother and an immortal father. That is why he is called the Only Begotten Son. From his mother he inherited mortality and was subject to hunger, thirst, fatigue, pain, and death. He inherited divine powers from his Father.
    Gospel Principles (1997 edition), chapter 11

    See, this is another problem we have with LDS leaders. They go around preaching certain things, year after year, prophet after prophet, then turn around and say, “Well, it was never official doctrine.” They can’t have it both ways. If they’re going to preach something for 100 years, they need to make it canon. Otherwise, they’re preaching something their own church doesn’t believe. Or perhaps was not given to him by God. In which case that man is a false prophet, for who can tell–can that man even know–when he is speaking from God and when he isn’t?

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  48. Joseph Fielding Smith said:
    “It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine.
    You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards in doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works.
    Every man who writes is responsible, not the Church, for what he writes. if Joseph Fielding Smith writes something which is out of harmony with the revelations, then every member of the Church is duty bound to reject it. If he writes that which is in perfect harmony with the revealed word of the Lord, then it should be accepted “(Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.3, pp.203-04).

    As I said, only Christ was perfect.

    OK, Attack away!

    Brian, the “Jesus of Mormonism” is every bit the Jesus of the Bible. But you’ll never believe it, no matter what scripture I give.

    I am currently teaching a Bible class and continually notice scriptures that conflict with your beliefs.

    And you continue to dodge my question to you.

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  49. Members of the LDS Church are not sheep in the sense that we blindly follow and do what we’re told. We are responsible to constantly seek for truth. We are to put in the time and effort. We are to study and search the scriptures, to know for ourselves. We are to listen to the words of our prophets, particularly our prophet today, for he speaks for today. We are to pray to God and ask him what is true.

    We are to do our “homework” and receive guidance from the Spirit. We attend church 3 hours every Sunday, plus additional much time during the week, where we receive instruction from each other. We don’t go and hear the same man every week. We teach each other. We weed and sort and pray about what we learn. This is why the Holy Ghost is so vital.

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  50. Brenda,

    Jesus:

    Mormonism: Jesus is literally the firstborn of all heavenly Father’s and Mother(s)’ spirit children. He is every individual’s spirit brother, including Lucifer’s and the third of the host of heaven who were cast out. He was born in order to get a body, to redeem man from the effects of sin, and to work out his own salvation as part of The Plan.

    Christianity: Jesus is God incarnate. He always existed as God (Philippians 2:6-8, 1 Timothy 3:15-16, John 1:1). He created the universe and everything in it (Colossians 1:16). We become brothers by adoption. He came specifically as a sacrifice for our sins and to redeem us from death and hell.

    Please explain how these are the same.
    Also what is “the revealed word of the Lord”to you.

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  51. you will follow these prophets of today at least until tomorrow when you find out that what they are teaching is wrong. And again, the Bible says that if any man speaks as a prophet and his prophecy does not come true, that man is a false prophet. Isn’t it amazing how many mormon false prophets there have been and yet, mormons will continue to believe in them over what the Bible says. Myself and others on here, leave comments because we do not want anyone to go to hell. I apologize for the length of this comment but I have to post this…

    “Mormo” and the Mormons

    In the Satanic bible on the page listing “Infernal Names” the god of the ghouls is named “Mormo!” (a ghoul is an evil being obsessed with the dead). His followers would be called Mormons! Mormons are obsessed with geneologies and Temple rites and rituals for the dead, who they believe can visit the living, and who can convert to mormonism even in the grave. In Chinese, “Mormon” means ‘gates of hell.’ That is why Mormon missionaries have problems in Hong Kong. continue reading!

    Mormons believe there are trillions of gods! but the average Mormon will invariably try to deny the polytheistic nature of his religion by insisting, “But we only worship ‘the God of this world!'” Now, see what takes place in Mormon Temples all across the world, it is a secret ritual called the Endowment. part of it involves a “creation drama” that puts most Temple patrons to sleep. This is followed by a reeactment on film or stage of events in the Garden of Eden. After he and his wife, Eve, have been expelled from the Garden into the “lone and dreary world,” Adam builds an altar and cries out, “O God, hear the words of my mouth!” (notice who responds!) When he repeated this three times, an arogant voice responds off stage, “I hear you!” Lucifer then enters the scene. Sauntering over to Adam, he asks, “What is it you want?”

    “Who are you?” demands Adam in surprise. “I am the God of this world.” replies Lucifer.

    Pretty scary, huh? wait it gets worse as it continues. Lucifer has appeared on the scene wearing an embroidered apron very similar to the one Masons wear in their secret rituals. Partaking of the forbidden fruit and becoming “wise,” Adam notices Lucifer’s apron and asks him what it means. Satan then replies, “It is the emblem of my power and priesthoods.” having said that, Lucifer directs Adam and Eve to fashion similar aprons for themselves. He excitedly and slyly cries, “See, you are naked. Take some fig leaves and make you aprons. Father will see your nakedness (because in Mormon teaching, Lucifer and Jesus are brothers!), Quick! Hide!” As obedient to Satan as they were disobedient to God, Adam and Eve follow the instructions of “the god of this world.” As soon as Adam and Eve have tied their Luciferic aprons about them, the ceremony narrator instructs the Temple patrons to place their own fig-leaf aprons over their beautiful Temple clothing. As obedient to Satan as Adam and Eve have been, each Mormon going thru the temple solemnly puts on the fig-leaf aprons!

    In contrast, the Bible indicates that God refused to accept Adam and Eve’s fig-leaf aprons as a covering for their nakedness. Instead, He clothes them in the skins of animals that He had sacrificed as a symbol of the sacrifice Christ would one day make upon the cross for the sins not only of Adam and Eve, but of the whole world. In the Temple reenactment, when Elohim (God) shows up, he does not have them remove the aprons made of fig-leaf’s. Astonishing as it may seem, Temple Mormons are married and buried in this fig-leaf apron that their own doctrine identifies as the symbol of Lucifer’s “Power and priesthoods.”

    I post this for all mormons and non-mormons so they do not fall into this religion (cult)

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  52. Philippians 2:6-8 “Being in the form of God” (we are all in the image of God) . . . ‘not robbery to be equal with God” (possibly to be of the same purpose, or when we worship Christ, we essentially are worshiping the Father, as one usually is always speaking for or representing the other.) . . . “form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men” (received a body, as we did) . . . “found in a fashion as a man” (he lived on earth as we do) . . . “humbled himself and became obedient unto death” (He gave up his life on the cross, voluntarily).

    1 Tim 3:15-16 “God was manifest in the flesh” (Yes, Christ was born and received a body and lived on earth.) “justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up unto glory.” (I don’t see the conflict.)

    John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God” (Christ is the Word. He was there in the beginning when the world was created, as we all were, and he was WITH God, separate beings.) . . . and the Word was God. (Yes Christ is a god. He is the god of this world.)

    Col. 1:16 : “For by him were all things created” (Christ created this world) . . . “that are in heaven, and that are in earth,” (Christ created this world. He created the heavens (skies, planets, stars, etc.), the oceans, land, animals, plants. Did he create us? God created us and often Christ represents God, the Father. So in a sense, yes.) . . . etc. ” all things were created by him, and for him” (Christ is the god of this world and the creator of this world. This is what this is saying.)

    So, Christos, I’ve gone through each of your scriptures. You have your interpretation and we have ours. Both deserve consideration. We believe your interpretation is wrong. Simple as that.

    To me, the revealed word of the Lord means the gospel.

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  53. yes, Christ was born (but how it happened was not addressed).
    He was there in the beginning when the world was developed. He created the whole universe not just this world. He is the ONLY God and not one of millions! Don’t play with the wording. You either believe you will be a god or not. The Bible says no such thing that you will become a god, in fact the only one who said you could be god was Satan. And mornons believed him!
    There is nothing i Scripture that says that we were with God. in fact the earth was without form it was void. Since Jesus created the heavens and the earth and man had not been created yet, we were not in heaven with Him creating spirit babies! Not biblical.
    Christ is the god of this world. That is a very blasphemous statement for you to make. The only god of this world is Satan! Jesus is Lord and Savior, Creator of all worlds and universe(s) and all created beings (angels are created beings). When it says that all things were created by him and for him, it was for his good pleasure. You have added meaning where there is no other meaning than to verify what was said with the rest of Scripture to see if it lines up. We were created for God’s pleasure and to glorify Him. You say you have your interpretations, but as you have already stated, that is not a valid argument since the mormon stance will change at the drop of a hat.

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  54. You know, Brian, those things that were said 100 years ago, that we don’t teach today, do they really matter? Whether or not someone said Jesus was married, or that Adam was a god, or whatever. What we really need is guidance in our lives. We are told by our prophet to
    1. Study the scriptures
    2. Pray always
    3. Teach our children
    4. Attend the temple
    5. Honor the sabbath
    6. Repent
    7. Honor our baptismal covenants
    8. Keep the commandments
    9. Forgive others
    10. Love God and all people, be kind
    Etc.

    This never changes. This is what is important and matters to each of us every day. The gospel doesn’t change. People’s opinion on details come and go.
    We love the Lord and try to do his will, and we do our best to live what we’re taught. This is the gospel. And it brings me joy.

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  55. Brenda,

    I don’t believe you’re deceived,you have more knowledge of the truth than most professing Christians.However because of the wickedness and total depravity of the human heart you’ve chosen a “works based salvation”.I hope and pray God grants you faith and repentance in Christ and Christ alone.

    It’s obvious you loathe genuine Christianity but let me be clear,genuine Christians have no ill will towards you or Mormons. Once again I hope and pray God grants you faith and repentance in Christ and Christ alone.

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  56. Christos, I don’t loathe Christians, evangelical or otherwise. You are the ones attacking my religion. I have to defend it. Go up to the top of this blog; no one is smearing you. I sent 3 sons on missions; who’s insulting who? Remember we’re the ones who have always thought of you as fellow Christians, working together to elect a God-fearing, moral president, and promoting other good causes in the community.

    We are not taught anything negative about you at church (we don’t even mention you, specifically) and strongly believe everyone has the right to worship as they please. Until recently I’ve naively thought most everyone felt this way.
    LDS feel we’ve reached out our hand in fellowship only to have it slapped away.

    I must say I do loathe lies told about us. But I don’t hate your errors in doctrine at all. I find it very interesting.

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  57. Brenda,
    I have to jump in here with three brief points:

    1) You said: “Members of the LDS Church are not sheep in the sense that we blindly follow and do what we’re told.” May I present to you the following:

    Never speculate about Church Doctrine. (Gospel Principles, Page 2)

    When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. (Ward Teachers Message, Deseret News, Page 5, 05/26/45)

    Any Latter-day Saint who denounces or opposes whether actively or otherwise, any plan or doctrine advocated by the “prophets, seers, or revelators” of the Church, is cultivating the spirit of apostasy. (Ward Teachers Message, Deseret News, Page 5, 05/26/45)

    2). Mormons not only taught that Jesus was married, Brenda, but Brigham Young taught that it was polygamy that led to Christ’s crucifixion:
    The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, causing crucifixion, was evidently based on polygamy…a belief in the doctrine of a plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers. We might almost think they were Mormons.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 1, Pages 345-346)

    3). You keep saying that we’re the ones attacking your religion. (More smoke and mirrors). This is the common victimization mantra of those Mormons who are ill-informed of their own church history. Please check out this post on exactly who attacked who first before repeating this lie anymore.

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  58. I guess we’ll never understand each other. Yes we believe you are wrong. I have asked this question repeatedly:
    Don’t you believe all other churches besides your own are wrong also?

    We are the only true religion. We’ve never denied that. We boldly claim it. And when you have something true and precious as we believe we have, we must share it with the world and are under commandment to do so.

    You MUST feel the same about your religion. And of course you should be proclaiming your faith to the world as well.
    But proclaiming one’s faith can be done in different ways.

    Do we print anti-Baptist, anti-Methodist, anti-Jewish, etc. literature? No.
    Do we hover around meetings and other religious services, picketing or handing out offensive leaflets? No.
    Do we spend untold amounts of time researching every detail of your past looking for anything flammatory? No.
    Do we put offensive cartoons about you online? No.
    Do we publish and slander sacred aspects of your faith online, mocking and ridiculing? No.
    Do our ministers spend time at our pulpits teaching us how to “talk” to the Jehovah Witnesses, or any representatives of another church? No.
    Are we taught kindness and respect for other religions, even though we believe they’re wrong? Yes!

    Do you see the difference?

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  59. What you fail to understand while playing the victim card is that the very existence of Mormonism is an attack on Christianity. Its genesis was the pretense that all Christian churches, doctrines, and preachers were an abomination.

    You continue to mistake people warning you of the errors of LDS (that will lead to eternal damnation and torment), as “attacking.” As long as you relentlessly hold to that conditioned perspective, the discussion, sadly, was over before it ever started.

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  60. Brenda,
    You are playing with both sides of the coin. On one hand you say that things said 100 years ago don’t matter. What matters is what is said today. Here is a question for you.
    For those people who heard the crazy teachings a hundred years ago, expecially of those of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, the very things you denounce today…
    Are those listeners in heaven or hell? Because the teachings of JS and BY were of a Jesus that was so far off base as to lead people to a false god. Therefore, are those people in hell or do you believe in hell?

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  61. I do not attack Mormons. My best friend is a mormon and we get along fine. I have told him how I feel and he has heard it and is about to change. He is very close. I love my friend enough that I do not want him to go to hell. I have told people in my own church what they need to do to be saved and have been persecuted by many of them. Just remember that there will be a day when people who profess that they are Christians will say to Jesus, Lord, Lord, and He will say, depart from me you worker of iniquity, I never knew you.

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  62. I took this quote from Pyromaniacs website. I think it is right on. I hear how matt 7 says we can’t judge. did you forget about v 15-20??

    Excellent thoughts on truth. I was reading last night in Matthew 7. Its interesting that those who seem almost addicted to (mis)quoting v1
    – about not judging in the wrong way (in terms of judgementalism) – forget about vv15-20 which is all about judging in the right sense (i.e. discerning false teachers).

    For me John MacArthur is right on the money here. There is a sense in which to identify a wolf is a capital crime. To allow their destructive teaching to maul the flock of God is a high virtue.

    We are out to discern false teachers. The men who are correct today in mormonism will be considered invalid tomorrow by the same people who floxk to them today!

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  63. Breanda,

    I have a questiona bout something you said. You said “We [Mormons] have the only true religion”, yet you claim that you believe that we Baptists (or our Methodist and Presbyterian brothers) are also Christians like Mormons. You say we all worship the same God, the same Christ, yet you say that the LDS has the only true religion? Can you please explain what you mean?

    And just to let you know, on my blog I discuss Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Islam, Darwinism, Word of Faith, and any other false religion.

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  64. I can tell you what she will say, it is because they have prophets and are currently receiving revelation from God where supposedely we are not!!

    But here is something for her to look at since she admits that her prophets are fallable.

    Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their OWN heart, AND not out of the mouth of the Lord. Jeremiah 23:16

    go to verse 31 and 32…
    Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that use their tongues, and say, He saith. Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the Lord, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord.

    verse 39-40…
    Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence: And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

    And you ONLY go by what the modern, today prophet says????? You are in danger of hell fire if you don’t repent of following after Joseph Smith and his prophets!!

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  65. So you can’t really tell when they are speaking from the mouth of God and when they’re not? So, how do they know when they ARE speaking directly from God? I’ll bet it’s like McConkie said in a letter to an LDS in England when they finally abandoned the “Adam is God” doctrine–that when the prophet speaks in agreement with the Mormon scriptures, then he’s speaking the word from God. And when he says something that contradicts Mormon scripture, he isn’t speaking from God. Am I right? But doesn’t that mean that you have to look back at the Mormon prophets from 100 years ago, to see what they said, so you can know whether the current prophet is speaking truth? If so, then Hinckley isn’t speaking from God in calling Mormons to embrace Christians as brothers, since our creeds are “abominations” to God, and thus Hinckley would be contradicting what the Second Personage said to Joseph.

    I also wonder this: If Mormon prophets write something in a book–and if every Mormon prophet after them repeats the same thing in books–how can the average mormon not take what has been written by these men to be doctrine? I really can’t imagine a Mormon man telling his wife “Now, honey, I know this is what the prophet wrote. And I know all these other prophets said the same thing. But you really don’t have to listen to them, because they’re just stating their own opinions.” I especially don’t see that happening in the days of Young, Snow, Pratt, etc.

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  66. You are not reading what I wrote, even though you claim to, because you keep going back to what I’ve already answered. You evade many of my questions to you. This is going nowhere.

    Sorry, guys, I have to go with what the Holy Ghost tells me and what I read in the scriptures, and not with you. They just don’t agree with you. Your doctrines aren’t fathomable, logical, or even attractive. And they don’t speak truth to me. Thank goodness for the Holy Ghost to help me sort this out.

    But the original point of this blog, is that your methods and tactics of “fighting” us are not returned. And you know it. We will continue to defend, but we won’t attack. We state that we have the truth, then we offer to share what we have. That’s as far as we go. To me, this is Christian.

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  67. Have you not read what your organization said about Christians or are you simply ignoring what your organization has said about Christians? The hateful, seething and venomous attacks that your founders spewed towards Christians and the Christian faith are documented for you here.

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  68. Brenda,

    I have read what you wrote, and the reason I keep “going back to what you’ve already answered” is because I really don’t think you understand that the “answers” you have given–which are right out of the LDS playbook–are wrong. It is not simply a difference in interpretation. The Mormon church has added so much to the Scriptures over the years, that they keep having to go in circles defending their beliefs. That’s why they don’t like people like Me and Pilgrim and Brian–because we know the truth, so they want to pretend to be our friends so they can shut us up. Sorry, that ain’t happening.

    We will continue to sound the alarm about the Mormon “church”, we will continue to do everything we can to stop people from joining that cult, we will continue to show the lies and deceit used by the LDS leadership.

    Please, if you will, show us one lie we’ve told about Mormon history, beliefs, or practices. Show us one time when we have deliberately said something about the Mormon church that wasn’t true. I will gurantee you this: If we have said something that was untrue, it was not done on purpose and we will retract it.

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  69. “When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.”

    It is typical throughout world history (BOM especially) that the righteous are the defenders, not the offenders.

    Get out of the past. See who we are today. Take the high road.

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  70. Brenda,

    You are now doing what you have been accusing us of doing: dodging questions. I asked you to point out any inaccuracies we have posted about Mormonism. You have not produced one. That must mean, then, that everything we have said is correct.

    As far as “getting out of the past”, you and I both know that is not possible, since the requirement for an LDS prophet’s words to be considered canonical is that they must agree with what has been revealed to the LDS prophets of old, or it is just that man’s opinion. The Mormonism of today is built on the mormonism of the past.

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  71. Fourpointer, Yes, it is possible. It’s done by reading the Book of Mormon and asking if it’s true. This is the foundation on which Mormonism is built. Try it.

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  72. What really scares me about some of you people is the way you blindly go about following a religion. How can Mormons (or anyone) NOT study different faiths, and expect to walk shoulder-to-shoulder with other faiths as “Christians”???

    All who choose to believe in one religion and who don’t investigate and question what they are being told to believe are not choosing at all.

    “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” (1 Thessalonians 5:21).

    The command to “prove all things” is a lifelong responsibility for every true believer. We must continually be testing every teaching that we read or hear by carefully studying the Scriptures. (source: biblestudy.org) Notice STUDY SCRIPTURES — NOT related books or writings from individuals, no matter how “inspired” they say they were by the holy spirit.

    Jeez, people! I’m going to repeat: anyone who does not investigate and question their own beliefs (as well as that of others) is just a blind idiot. If that investigating proves your beliefs or if it turns you to another faith or it turns you into an atheist, then you are not a fool. But don’t be afraid to discover truth! Stop listening to and reading what others tell you to believe, and do the work yourself! There is no “One True Religion” — that’s a crock meant to scare people into giving money to one church, and we’ve all seen the kind of corruption that leads to.

    It seems to me that something as important as an eternal afterlife warrants a little personal research.

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  73. Asking if the BOM is true does not work. I asked and SATAN answered! Much the same way he does in the Temple Ceremony! You know, the part where Adam and Eve call out to God and Satan answers them. They ask him who he is and he says, “I am the god of this world.” Sounds very similar to your view of who Jesus is. The (small g) god of this world. So, I tried it and was fooled. I fell for it. But that was because I was biblically illiterate. I did not know how to read the Bible (for myself!). Instead of a church telling me what Scripture meant, I should have been studying the Bible in the original language and not just reading one line of Scripture and saying it means something, but reading it in context to “who was the audience?” Does my understanding line-up with the rest of Scripture or is it contrary to it? If all you are going to do is rely on feelings, then no amount of discernment is found in you. What do you have to do to go to heaven? be married? have kids? will a single person be able to be a god himself? it is surprising that a woman is so strongly associated with mormonism since you are only going to be pregnant for eternity producing spirit babies (according to mormon teaching). The warning must come out, you have denied Jesus as the GOD of the BIBLE. If your feelings are wrong and Satan is truly leading you (unknowingly), then you must understand that you and your family are headed for hell. A consuming lake of fire. Eternal torment! Not three levels of heavenly bliss, but eternal suffering and pain and darkness. If what we are telling you is true (and it is), you are headed for hell. You have not answered any of our questions. You have called us liars but provide no BIBLICAL proof! We are not attacking you. It is out of a true love for our neighbor that we do not want anyone to go to hell. You have been in the mormon church for many years and it is hard to have to admit that you have spent your life, and your family has done the same thing, in worshipping a god that is not of the Bible. Put the Book of Mormon down and read only the Bible. All of the Scriptures that Mormons use to justify baptizing dead people (only one line of Scripture mentions it and even then Paul distances himself from the people who do that, “else what shall “THEY” do that baptize dead people.?” It is not something that was taught by Jesus, because it is appointed once for man to die and then the judgment. That is why you must see the truth now before it is too late. You have no assurance that tomorrow will come for you. You could die tonight and will have to answer God. Saying no one told you about the real Jesus is not going to work. You have been told. You have rejected it. Your eternal salvation is in the hands of your false prophets who can’t make up their minds as to what is canonized in their books!

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  74. well I guess I’ll add my two cents. I’ve been reading this site on and off for a while and its been very interesting to see the different views of people. first off, I’m no scholar. I’m 22, going to school and working in the scrap metal business, and yes I am LDS. I was going to talk about something else but then I saw revbrook’s post and I would like to comment on that. It blows me away that people are still accusing us of “following blindly”. I do no such thing.

    3 years ago I was deciding whether or not to serve a mission as many young men in this church do. I loved school, I was earning good money, and had a very pretty girlfriend. It was very difficult for me to make this decision. I tell you that had the holy ghost not touched my heart that evening in april 2004 while reading the Book of Mormon and testified of its truthfulness, I can’t assure you that I would have gone. (No one makes us go, we decide to drop our lives for 2 years and pay around ten thousand dollars.) That moment has meant the world to me. I’m so grateful that I can now say that I know that the book of mormon is true. It’s very offensive to me when people make fun of the missionaries and their efforts. It is very hard work but it was hands down the most wonderful experience I have ever had, I loved it.

    I didn’t know the early leaders of the church personally and quite honestly I have no idea why they said some of the things they said, I’m sure I won’t know in this lifetime. But this I know, that book is true and therefore Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.

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  75. I hope this doesn’t open up a new can of worms but i had another thought. I keep reading posts saying that we don’t have biblical proof for all of our beliefs. I believe there is a very simple answer to this. and that is, we didn’t get all of our beliefs from the bible so of course they’re not all going to come from the bible. So all of this: show us in the bible, show us in the bible, show us in the bible, is not necessary. This church isn’t based on the bible. Its headed by Christ and he has revealed many new wonderful things. Don’t get me wrong, the bible is true, it is scripture. Its just not our only source. If Moses was alive and preaching today, would he just quote word for word what he wrote in the old testament? Or does anybody think he might have something new to say?

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  76. Tyler,

    Welcome. I hope that we can show you the truth of the Bible, and how it is truly God’s written word, and that many Mormon beliefs go against what God has plainly shown us in that word. That said, many of the things the LDS church claims have been “revealed by Christ” have not come from Christ, but from the minds of men.

    I’m not sure if you’ve read through all the comments on this post. If you haven’t, I would encourage you to do so. The things that have been posted by Brian, Pilgrim, and I are actual statements and beliefs of the Mormon church, either in the past or the present. The reason we have posted some quotes that LDS “prophets” of old have said is this: The LDS church is now claiming that these men never said these things, and that the LDS has never held certain doctrines.

    Why would they deny these things, when anybody, with a little bit of searching, can find these quotes? That tells me that LDS leadership feels they need to suppress what they once held to be “truth”, that they are ashamed of their past, and cannot be trusted.

    As far as Joseph being a true “prophet of God”, he made many prophecies–which he began with the words “Thus saith the LORD”–that flatly contradict not only the Bible, but what was written in other LDS “scriptures”. As I pointed out to Brenda earlier, in Jacob 2:23-27 it says that the many wives of David and Solomon were “an abomination” to God. Then, in D&C 132, “God” tells Joseph to write that He Himself gave those wives to David and Solomon. So, which was it? Were these many wives given to them by God, or were they an abomination to God? If these two passages don’t contradict each other, then God committed an abomination against Himself.

    Now, to address some of your questions. You asked if Moses would just go about quoting the Old Testament. But, if you think about it, that is exactly what Jesus did. Whenever the Pharisees, or Saducees–or even Satan Himself–tried to trick Him, what did He say? “It is written…” He did not add to the Scriptures, He simply quoted them.

    And I understand, that you only trust the Bible “so far as it is correctly translated (AoF #4)”. But can you really trust the Book of Mormon? After all, there have been over 3,000 changes made to the BOM. And contrary to what you might hear from LDS sources, many of these corrections were not to “clrify” or “update” the language. Many of them were to clear up grammatical and spelling errors made by Joseph Smith and/or Oliver Cowdry (Joseph’s scribe). Yet, as you can read in the Introduction to your BOM, Joseph called it “the most correct book ever written.” You can read about many of these changes at http://www.irr.org/mit/changingscrips.html if you want a good breakdown on these changes.

    Concerning the Book of Abraham: The original papyrus that Joseph “translated” was lost in 1871. It resurfaced in 1966, in a vault at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC. After many experts in hieroglyphics and Egyptology studied it carefully, they found that this papyrus had nothing to do with Abraham. It was an Egyptian burial manual. The Book of Abraham is a fraud.

    I hope you will take the time to read what we have posted with an open heart. We are not trying to bash you personally. I’m sure you are very sincere in your beliefs, and you sound like a good kid. But I would urge you, with every ounce of love in my heart, to leave the LDS church before you get drawn in any further. It is not Christ’s true church. Come out of it and be saved.

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  77. I’m through arguing doctrine. You’re firm in yours and I’m firm in mine.

    We will always think of ourselves as Christians. Not because we want to be accepted as “mainstream” or to “cozy up to you”. But because the term Christian comes from the name of Christ.

    Even though you’ve used the title for a couple of centuries, we feel it no longer completely reflects the true Christianity that Christ taught.

    We feel we are Restored Christianity. We have always felt this way; this is nothing new. What IS new, at least to me, is the realization that we are not accepted as Christians by you.

    So even though I’m saying, in the strictest sense of the word, that YOU are not completely true Christians, we see you as followers of Christ as far as you are taught. Therefore, we are more than willing to share the term with you. We don’t demand that you view Christ exactly as we do, just that you believe in his divinity. This is my opinion.

    But the other criteria for true Christianity, beyond one’s professed beliefs, is one’s behavior. Behavior modeled after Christ. If one carries his name, one is responsible to behave as he would. (WWJD)

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  78. And as I’m sitting here typing this, the Mormon Tabernacle Choir is singing “Oh Come All Ye Faithful” on my TV. It’s absolutely beautiful.

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  79. Alright you scripture brainiacs, explain Genesis 3:22, ” And the Lord God said, Behold the man is become as one of US, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:”

    Who is God talking to? Satan, Cherubim, himself?

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  80. Chrissy, if you go to:
    http://blueletterbible.org/Comm/robert_bowman/trinity.html
    It will give you the biblical response that yuo are looking for. It will also answer many other questions about Who God is and what His nature is. It will show biblically, WHY God was not a man that ascended up to the position. It will show that there is NO OTHER gods, and those who think they are gods will all die like men.
    Brenda,
    you are so worried about how long I was in the mormon faith, like time has a stamp of validity to it. The fact I was in it for over three years just shows how long it took me to see the truth of God’s Word, it does not lessen WHAT I KNOW ABOUT MORMONISM. I was a leader in the church. I went through the Temple, I know what goes on there! I had the sacred underwear!!! The fact that you are anyone else has been in the church for over 50 years does not prove anything other than you have been blinded to the truth and until you truly see God’s Word from the Bible and from the Bible only, then you will not be saved. You can call yourself Christian if you want, but don’t think for a minute that it is going to be validated by us. Christians have been around for 2000 years, not just a couple of hundred. I know you say that ALL CHURCHES ARE CORRUPT. But you never answered the part about the Bible saying His Word would never fail.

    Here is another site to go to:
    http://biblia.com/christianity2/3b-mormons.htm
    It is important for mormons to see why they are not Christians. Their god is not eternal. The Bible speaks about an eternal God not the Jesus of the BOM.

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  81. Chrissy,

    God was talking to Jesus and (more than likely) the Holy Spirit. You see, before Adam ate from that tree, he only knew good. He was created to have a perfect relationship with God. However, God gave Adam one command so he could prove his love for God: Keep your mitts off the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If Adam had not eaten this fruit, he would have only known to do good. But now, he also knows to do evil.

    Since, at this time, only God knew what good and evil were, and since now, after taking the fruit, Adam has come to know evil, “the eyes of them both [Adam and Eve] were opened” (Gen. 3:7), so now they were “like God” (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit), because now, like God, Adam knew good and evil.

    This verse does not in any way give any kind of proof of a “pluralityof Gods”, nor does is disprove the Orthodox Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit–and these three are one God). This, in fact, gives even more weight to the Orthodox view of the Trinity, especially the existence of Christ before His earthly birth.

    Some other sites you can go to for factual information on the history, beliefs, and practices of the LDS church:

    Utah Lighthouse Ministries (http://www.utlm.org)
    Mormonism Research Ministries (http://www.mrm.org)
    Institute for Religious Research (http://www.irr.org)
    Watchmen Fellowship (www.watchmen.org)

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  82. Brenda,
    It sounds like you’re implying that Jesus would never confront or challenge error, false doctrine, and false teachers (and allowing them to operate freely to spread their damnable lies would somehow equate to LOVE). If this is what you are saying then you have proven once again that the “Jesus” of Mormonism bares no resemblance to the Jesus of the Scriptures.

    WWTMJD (What Would The Mormon Jesus Do)? Who can know because depending on the day, he changes frequently. Remember the early Mormon Jesus? The polygamist of whom Brigham Young said was crucified because of his view on polygamy? Well that was the 19th century Mormon Jesus. The 21st century Mormon Jesus is more polished and socially acceptable than the 19th century Mormon Jesus. So to ask WWTMJD is a tricky question as long as the LDS organization keeps changing their doctrines and beliefs, and then denying they ever taught the previous doctrines and beliefs. It’s a tiring endeavor to keep plugging all the holes Mormonism creates with their ever changing doctrines, isn’t it? I guess it’s easier to simply plug your ears instead and chant the mantra, “We don’t teach that NOW! Just look at what we teach NOW!”

    The more appropriate question would be to ask WDJD (What Did Jesus Do)? My Bible and yours records Him confronting and rebuking the false teachers of His time just as He would do if He were walking the earth now with Mormon “prophets,” Jehovah’s Witness “prophets,” Catholic “popes” and “priests,” etc. But do not be fooled or lulled into a false sense of security. He will judge these false teachers/prophets one day, and it will surely be better for them had they never been born.

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  83. Sorry, I’m done with the past. It’s your favorite weapon, and I’m just not going there anymore.

    The only time I recall aggression in Jesus was when he threw the money changers out of the temple. (Hmmm, the temple, it must have been important to him.)

    Other than that he was quiet, meek, humble. He didn’t confront. He didn’t harrass. He taught. He answered quietly but firmly, when questioned by his critics. When grilled by Herod, he didn’t even speak. WDJD? When hanging on the cross, he asked his father to forgive them. THAT’S what Jesus did.

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  84. “The only time I recall aggression in Jesus was when he threw the money changers out of the temp…other than that he was quiet, meek, humble. He didn’t confront.” …but his entire ministry was about presenting the truth without compromise to those who were in error. There are many passages where Jesus confronted people with their error. Your statement is mistaken.

    In fact, the Jews were constantly angry with him over being so confrontational. He was thrown out of temples and even threatened with death for causing so much offense. Jesus always challenged those around Him the way that Christians today challenge people who believe a “different Gospel” than the one that the apostles taught. For example:

    …when he confronted the Pharisees on several occasions.
    …when he called the Herodians hypocrites and confronted them so masterfully that they stopped questioning him.
    …when He warned against the false practice of hypocrites and called people such confrontational names as “blind guides”, “blind fools”, “vipers”, and said that they were full of “greed and self-indulgence” and “white washed tombs”.
    …when He declared Himself to be God in the temple and they tried to stone Him for blasphemy.
    …when He rebuked his own disciples on many occasions
    …when He rebuked Peter and shouted, “Get behind me, Satan!”
    …when He told Peter that he was a man “of little faith”
    …when He commanded demons to be cast out
    …when He told the rich that it is hard for them to enter the Kingdom of Heaven

    As for the temple that was so important to Him, He identified HIMSELF as the temple when He prophesied that it would be torn down and rebuilt in three days. Christ is the temple. Further, when He was asked about the correct “location” for worship, He told the woman, “believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

    And when Jesus was confronted by Pontius Pilate (not Herod), He did speak. Matt 27:11 – Now Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, “Are you the King of the Jews?” Jesus said, “You have said so.”

    And in John 8:58 – “Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” This is the same Greek phrase (ego eimi) that the Greek uses for the translation of the Hebrew word (EHEYEH) for God’s name in Exodus 3:14. In this passage, Jesus says that He is God of the burning bush and that He existed before Abraham.

    It is not about conflict for conflict’s sake. It is about defending the truth. Christ constantly confronted blind people with the light of truth. Sometimes He was harsh. Sometimes He was gentle. Sometimes He taught. Sometimes He rebuked and criticized. At all times, He was perfect and would not compromise with error.

    Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

    Truth and error do not coexist. They are in constant conflict. Where there is error, truth most confront and correct it.

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  85. Then you might want to read Matthew chapter 23. He almost prophesies about the LDS church, “…you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves nor do you allow those who are entering to go in…you cross land and sea to gain one follower. Yet when he is won, you make him twice a son of the devil as he was before.”

    It is not just the Mormon beliefs of the past that condemn those in the LDS church. For they hold many of those same beliefs today: A false God, a false Christ, a false salvation.

    I guess those first 180 years of Mormon prophets calling us Protestants “heretics” and “the church of Satan” and “children of the devil” didn’t work, so now they have to try and make all nicey-nice, so they can beguile us into joining their “church”. Barring that, it seems as if they are just trying to shut us up and make us go away.

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  86. Let’s comply with Brenda’s request and talk in the present. Only a few years ago, I attended the an LDS baptism. My friend (a Mormon) participated in a vicarious baptism for his dead uncle. This is not some historic or obscure practice among Mormons. This is not something that was unofficial or has been abaondoned. I have personally witnessed it today and it is “official” doctrine (as if there was any other kind of doctrine!)

    How can the LDS church defend this bad practice? All other points of doctrine aside for a moment, I can hardly call anyone Christian who believes that “Person A” can be baptized and that that human act allows “already-dead Person B” to enter into heaven. That has nothing to do with Christ’s forgiveness and mercy.

    The true Jesus did not come to give us more tasks to do in order to get to heaven. He came to fullfill the law through faith… not increase it through more works! I do not understand it at all and do not see how this could even be close to correct… of course the others here who check baptism off as a human work of obedience have more in common with LDS doctrine than I do on this point. Maybe they can help Brenda explain how Jesus could issue a requirement that makes it even harder to get into heaven.

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  87. “Sorry, I’m done with the past…”
    That is the beauty of Christianity! Our past doctrine is the same today as it was almost 2000 years ago. And it will be the same 2000 years from now. The Mormon cannot make that claim. They think they have special revelation from Jesus but they don’t. Jesus did not need to say anything more once He defeated death on the cross. Prophets of old pointed the way to Christ and to God. We have the Bible and it completely points to the foot of the cross! Salvation by faith 2000 years ago. Salvation by faith today! It’s beautiful. I feel bad that Mormons cannot see the errors of the teachings of their own church. It is so obvious to a Christian. I am listening to the song, At the foot of the cross by Go Fish. It is so beautiful! Listening to music does not make one a Christian. Singing beautiful music does not mean they are God-inspired. If the LDS Church would get their act together, they would openly admit that the very foundation of their religion is based on sand. It blows away at the first sign of confrontation. Any bets that the current mormon prophet will come up with a prophesy that says…
    “I declare that mormons will no longer be able to become gods. In keeping with mainstream Christianity, we walk along with our brothers on the narrow path.”
    I do not say this to mock the “prophet” and I use that word sparingly, but rather to show that mormon leaders will do anything to appear mainstream Christian. Just like revelation that blacks can hold the priesthood (you know, their skin is black because of their sin!), or that polygamy is no longer valid (you know, since the state of Utah would have had to secede from the union)…(more on this in a few minutes (I just found something very interesting that I am going to post on my blog…)

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  88. …but my point was that when questioned by Pontius Pilate (not Herod), He did answer. Read the whole chapter of Luke. The idea that Jesus was this meek man who silently stood by during the whole event without a word is not correct. Jesus did speak. He declared the truth. Insults, accusations, and pointless questions were left unanswered, but questions about His nature and mission were responded to. He did point out people’s faults and errors. Most importantly, He established His divinity as God. The saving message of Christ is not in His humble behavior, but in His words of truth and sacrifice on the Cross.

    The important concept here is not those places where Jesus chose not to speak, but those rare occasions during His arrest, trial, and curcefixion when He did speak and what He said when He did speak.

    “If you are the Christ, tell us.” But he said to them, “If I tell you, you will not believe, and if I ask you, you will not answer. But from now on the Son of Man shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God.” So they all said, “Are you the Son of God, then?” And he said to them, “You say that I am.” Then they said, “What further testimony do we need? We have heard it ourselves from his own lips.” Luke 22:67-71

    And…Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” Heaven is God’s Kingdom… Jesus calls it “My kingdom”. Jesus is God because He has authority and dominion that belongs only to God. He is the Creator not just a powerful created.

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  89. As Mike said, “If I tell you, ye will not believe: and if I also ask you, ye will not answer me.” So true.

    Merry Christmas.

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  90. And so I believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

    I was baptized in the name of these three. I was married in the name of these three. I have no question concerning Their reality and Their individuality. That individuality was made apparent when Jesus was baptized by John in Jordan. There in the water stood the Son of God. His Father’s voice was heard declaring His divine sonship, and the Holy Ghost was manifest in the form of a dove (see Matt. 3:16–17).

    The true Jesus of Scripture is not the false Jesus of the CURRENT church of the Later-Day Saints. I now quote President Gordon B. Hinckley from July 2006 (I have placed the heretical and/or misleading statements about Jesus in CAPS). Here is what the prophet said:

    I am aware that Jesus said they who had seen Him had seen the Father. COULD NOT THE SAME BE SAID BY MANY A SON WHO RESEMBLES HIS PARENT?

    When Jesus prayed to the Father, certainly He was not praying to Himself!

    THEY ARE DISTINCT BEINGS, BUT THEY ARE ONE IN PURPOSE AND EFFORT. They are united as one in bringing to pass the grand, divine plan for the salvation and exaltation of the children of God.

    In His great, moving prayer in the garden before His betrayal, Christ pleaded with His Father concerning the Apostles, whom He loved, saying:

    “Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

    “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us” (John 17:20–21).

    It is that perfect unity between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost THAT BINDS THESE THREE INTO THE ONENESS OF THE DIVINE GODHEAD.

    Miracle of miracles and wonder of wonders, They are interested in us, and we are the substance of Their great concern. They are available to each of us. We approach the Father through the Son. He is our intercessor at the throne of God. How marvelous it is that we may so speak to the Father in the name of the Son.

    I bear witness of these great, transcendent truths. I do so by the gift and power of the Holy Ghost, in the sacred name of Jesus Christ.

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  91. I just posted on my blog some good information about Polygamy and the State of Utah back in the 1800’s. For a prophet to be controlled by the states the way he was, just shows he was not led by God. My God is powerful enough that if He wanted polygamy to exist, it would have existed! No state or country could have undermined God! The revelation was all about seeking political power (uh, can anyone say Mitt Romney?)

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  92. I apologize, the third paragraph should be at the top… It is mine, the rest are from the LDS website. I am aweful at cut and paste.

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  93. The inheritance of the sons of God — those called to share His throne and reign with Him over all things. This great plan was conceived and initiated in eternity, before time began. “For whom He did FOREKNOW, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?” (Rom. 8:28-31). Now notice! These five verbs — foreknow, predestinate, called, justified, glorified — are all in the aorist tense. This denotes action at a given point in the past. All these things happened to us “before” the ages began! Some have stumbled over the fact that Paul says that those whom the Father foreknew, predestinated, called, and justified, He also GLORIFIED. They have questioned the meaning of “glorification,” wondering how they could already be glorified in their present imperfect, mortal state. Let us understand — ALL of this is in the past! God foreknew us in the past — before the world began. This is also when He predestinated us, called us, justified us, and glorified us. Jesus, the firstborn of this company of sons selected before the world began, reveals the deep mystery of this when He prays, “And now, O Father, glorify Thou me with Thine own self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was” (Jn. 17:5). Oh, yes! Jesus was glorified, had a glory, with the Father before the world began. He left that glory when He was lowered into this earth realm, and now He prays for the Father to restore to Him that glory He had with Him before He came! And that is when every son of God was glorified! It is not something happening now, though it shall be manifested now, but it was given us in Christ in that long ago before the world began. “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them” (Eph. 2:10). Aren’t you glad!

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  94. One more time.

    I am not here to argue doctrine. I am not here to convert you. I have stopped trying to defend LDS history or even explain it.

    MY POINT IS: Your tactics to “expose” the evils of Mormonism are NOT PRODUCTIVE. It isn’t working. It might influence a few shakey Mormons, but it only offends the majority of us and does not make you look good. We have found that it often sparks curiousity in our church and conversions increase. Reasonable thinking people usually see through it.

    Is not your ultimate aim to BRING US TO CHRIST, YOUR CHRIST?

    What you’re doing doesn’t do that. Your harping on all our “faults” at most may pull a few of those shakey Mormons away from their church, BUT IT DOESN’T NECESSARILY BRING THEM TO YOU. The end result is usually drifting off into nothing.

    How can I be more clear?

    Apparently you think you need to kill a person’s belief, thus creating a void for you to then fill with your doctrine. However, too often you simply leave them with a void.

    But maybe, to you, a void . . . is better than being LDS.

    Fight Satan by doing your missionary work! You must, we all must, Christ told us to do it. But your METHODS aren’t working. If anything, you have strengthened my testimony, because you have challenged it.

    I guess I’m trying to help you. Cartoons like the above, relect very poorly on YOU. It makes you seem catty and desparate. If your doctrine is TRUE, you don’t need to stoop to the mud-slingling. Do your missionary work and teach your truth!!

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  95. This is your day of knowing and understanding where you came from and where you have been in order to arrive where you are right now, and where you are going. Something deep within has cried out, “I didn’t come into this world just to get saved from hell.” Deep has called unto deep (Psa 42:7) and you knew you were born for a purpose. You knew that you were here by divine appointment. You knew there was something greater, more glorious, and transcendental in God. You knew you were born to unveil God’s great plan, will, purpose, wisdom, nature, power, and glory in the earth!

    You came into this world out of the bosom of the Father! Before the Creator formed you, He knew you. He didn’t know you in your present physical form , but He knew you as spirit. God spoke to you about His plan for your life before ever you were formed as an embryo in the womb of your mother. Paul states it so clearly when he says, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love” (Eph. 1:3-4). The Amplified Bible reads, “Even as He chose us (actually picked us out for Himself as His own) in Christ before the foundation of the world.”

    Never doubt this reality for a moment — the only way God could have loved you, chose you in Christ, and picked you out for His own before the foundation of the world is that you truly existed in and with Him before the appearing of the worlds. Nothing can be plainer than that! Yet we have supposed that we were just recently, in this life, apprehended of God to sonship. I thought the work of God began in my life sixty-five years ago. Now I find that the thing God is doing with humanity began in eternity! It didn’t begin in time. It began before the ages were framed! God loved me, chose me, knew me, counseled with me, and picked me out for His unique purpose before the foundation of the world. My origin was in God! God begat me out of Himself as spirit before He exhaled me as spirit into a very unique body upon earth.

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  96. So are you saying that the satirical cartoon that is presented here has no basis in reality whatsoever? Are you saying that LDS missionaries do not lie to people about the history of Mormonism when they try to “bring us to Christ, your Christ”? Is this a totally baseless charge? Is this cartoon total slander with no basis in reality or personal experience?

    Brenda, you are incorrect about converts from Mormonism. The Christian church is full of converted Mormons. Our teaching and presentations do have effect… it might not on you because you have shut your eyes and covered your ears, but it does convert others. Mormons come to Christ all the time. There are people who post on this blog who are living proof. They don’t just leave the LDS church and wander around in agnostic dispair. They convert. The truth is productive. I pray that it will be for you as well.

    I am also a convert from one belief system to another (all be it within the same Trinitarian Faith). In order to come to the truth, you must first abandon your errors. Abandoning errors cannot happen if you have no idea what those errors are. That is what is happening here.

    …and you know that there have been and still are lots of errors in the LDS because no one will defend them when they are brought to the surface. I have yet to find a Mormon who likes to discuss doctrine with a theological peer.

    The leaders of my faith had tons of errors, too! There are lots of mistakes within mainline Christianity… but my faith is not based on their testimony. These flawed men are not the source of my truth. My truth is directly from God and has never been proven to be factually incorrect, immoral, or fraudulant. I do not stake my belief totally on the word of another human being and trust that he speaks the truth.

    I don’t have to wonder if divine revelation is a matter of someone’s imagination. I don’t ever have to wonder, “what else was this prophet wrong about?” I don’t have to sift through the Bible and figure out what was human error and opinion and what was divine truth. I have a stable rock of truth that has not changed in 2,000 years (even though many Christians have departed from it). LDS has a sandy foundation of progressive revelation that has slightly shifted thousands of times in a few centuries.

    That is the difference.

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  97. No basis in reality. None.

    As I said, this church is based on the Book of Mormon. If it’s true, then everything else follows. This is what our missionaries teach. Read the book. Ask God.

    The cartoon is an offensive lie.

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  98. The cartoon is true for me because I have had Mormon missionaries lie to my face about historical facts. When presented with the hard, black-and-white proof of what they had denied ever occured, they backpeddled and changed the subject. When I read this cartoon, I recalled MULTIPLE situations that happened to ME involving men from the LDS church. I have gone to LDS services, witness vicarious baptisms, and had zealous LDS friends.

    The cartoon is very offensive. Unfortunately, it is not a lie. It si the offensive truth about what some “Missionaries” do when they are witnessing to people like me.

    The church may be based on the Book of Mormon, but the Book of Mormon is based on the sole testamony of Joseph Smith, Jr and a handful of witnesses. That means that the deviations of the church from Christianity are based on the very men whose credibility is in considerable doubt.

    Joseph Smith, the prophet who translated the Book of Mormon, contradicted the Book of Mormon regularly. They both claimed to be God’s revelation to man, but they did not agree. One of the two is wrong. If Joseph Smith was wrong, he was a false prophet and all of his testimony should be cast into doubt (included the book that he translated). If the Book of Mormon is wrong, then Joseph Smith made it all up. What is the third option?

    If there are problems with translation, the translation should be ignored in favor of the original language. The KJV is a great example. When errors were found in the translation, the original source material (the Greek) was consulted to correct it. The Book of Mormon was corrected without the benefit of the original text (because the Angel took it back after the translation). There is no way to verify that these human modifications are true to the original text or not.

    We Christians do this all the time. The Pope said that he was divinely inspired and spoke for God. When he contradicted Scripture, we cast his testimony in doubt. Even earlier, when the Gnostics, the Pelagians, and the Arians claimed to have divine truth, but they contradicted Scripture, we cast their testimony in doubt and threw out all of their books.

    Mormonism refuses to do that. They retain false prophets and false teachers and they ignore the inconsistancies instead of rebuking them. They want you to believe what they say, but they don’t want to defend themselves from critics. In this way, they are more like modern Christians than most modern Christians would like to admit.

    Worse, the final authority of truth for a Mormon is totally subjective. The constant instruction is to pray and see if what they believe is true. It is totally based in the flawed hearts and mind of the individual. God’s truth is objective. It is true regardless of what you believe. Truth is not relative and truth is not internally discovered or interpreted; it is externally delivered.

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  99. And the fact is that Mormonism attacks Christianity far more consistantly than Christianity attack Mormonism. The meek, loving spirit of the LDS is contradicted by the majority of their writings. Most Mormons are very nice, kind, and good people. The are gentle, loving, and compassionate. They are patient and passive.

    Unfortuantely, Mormonism as reflected by Mormon doctrine does not echo that:

    Journal of Discourses 5:73–“When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was groveling in darkness.”

    Journal of Discourses 8:99–“With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world.”

    Journal of Discourses 6:25–“What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast.”

    Orson Pratt–“..all other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God; and any person who receives baptism of the Lord’s supper from their hands highly offend God, for he looks upon them as the most corrupt of all people” (The Seer, pg 255)

    Heber C. Kimball–“Christians – those poor, miserable priests Brother Brigham was speaking about – some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth…” (Journal of Discourses 5:39)

    …and many Missionaries are so blinded by these kinds of statements that they act more like Mormon Doctrine than the good Mormons that I know and love.

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  100. Brenda,

    Just for clarification, when you said “Sorry, I’m done with the past. ” can you please define “the past?” I’m not trying to be trivial, but I would like to know how far back in history you consider acceptable. 100 years? 50 Years? 10 Years? 1 Year? Yesterday?

    And if you throw out Mormonism’s “past,” let’s say . . . 50 years or more, then you must throw out ALL of LDS teachings over 50 years to be fair. This means no Book of Mormon, no Pearl of Great Price, no D&C, and no Bible. So now what do you have? Might as well eat, drink, and be merry.

    Oh, and one other thing.You said, “The only time I recall aggression in Jesus was when he threw the money changers out of the temple. (Hmmm, the temple, it must have been important to him.)” Funny you should mention that. Have you ever wondered why when Christ died the veil IN THE TEMPLE was torn in two? Because God no longer dwells in temples built by hand. So all the unbiblical, masonic, pagan, rituals that go on in the secretive temple ceremonies are moot. And besides, if God did still dwell in temples of brick and mortar, He certainly wouldn’t be in one adorned with the Satanic inverted pentagram all over it (pictures included). But I imagine since those were put on your SLC temple in “the past” then you probably don’t want to discuss them.

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  101. Brenda,

    Give up if you want. Stay if you want. But do me a favor. . . quit lying and misrepresenting us! You keep telling the same lie over and over again just repackaged in little snippets. Again you put forth the falsehood: “We’ll defend, but not strike back” as if LDS are poor innocent victims.

    It was the Mormon organization that came out swinging with both fists and spewing poisonous venom. This post quotes YOUR OWN PROPHETS and what they said about Christians, the Christian Church, and Christian doctrine. Since then the Christian Church has been defending itself against the countless damnable heresies that have come from your organization. Your bait and switch tactic is tiring and easily seen through.

    The average rank and file Mormon would never utter these things, but your prophets (on whom you put so much emphasis) have.

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  102. No, Brenda, you don’t defend and you don’t strike back.

    The LDS, however, has a long history of striking back which Reformation Nation has documented in extreme detail.

    My venom is not against you Brenda. It is against the people (past and present) who have lied to you. And I hope that I have proven on this blog that I do not play favorites. I have called out Pilgrim, Fourpointer, and others in those situations where they are wrong. In fact, I was called out on something that I was wrong over. Rather than ignore it, I looked at it from their point of view and discovered my mistake. That takes guts. That is the only way that people grow and fix mistakes… and ALL humans make mistakes.

    It isn’t about attacking people. It is about getting to the truth. I have not treated you any differently than I treat others that I disagree with… and unlike others, I do not participate in false attacks that have no support. A key example, I am an opponent of Roman Catholicism, but I am on record here defending them in those places where I know that they are right. IF that situation ever comes up for Mormonism, I will do the same. For the sake of the truth, I will set the record straight.

    The problem is that I cannot find anything wrong on this site about what has been said about Mormonism like I have on other sites. There is no conspiracy theory here. There is no made up doctrines and quotes… it is all LDS members in their own words and even some testimonies of former Mormons.

    How can I defend the indefensible?

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  103. Brenda is not stupid,she knows no religion can stand without a foundation.She still very much believes in all her prophets going all the way back to Joseph Smith.
    Reread what she has written on this site,even in her lies the truth is evident.The only venom here has come from Brenda.

    Brenda punches while yelling stop punching me!
    Brenda lies while yelling stop lying about me!

    Brenda if Pilgrim,Fourpointer,Brian,or Mike think I’m being too harsh or unfair I’ll apologize.

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  104. Mike Baker, what you have said is true. There are some out there who just hate Mormons. I’m not one of them. If Brenda would take a couple minutes and read this post on my review of The Enchanter, she may not agree with all I said, but perhaps her perception about my intentions may change.

    I do not purposely post things on here that are in error. What profit is that? Show me the error and I’ll correct it. And I certainly don’t lie on here to “win an argument.” I want only to share the truth, and sometimes (ok, many times) the truth is a very jagged pill for some to swallow.

    P.S. Here’s another post that may be of interest to some of you. It deals with where the Book of Mormon says that Jesus was born. It might surprise you.

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  105. You guys didn’t bother with my posts that I thought were thought provoking. Obviously not. What all of you are debating is your personl version of an outwardly flawed “church”, all derivatives or variations of the seven churches of Revelations, each described with its own set of flaws. You speak of the other’s insitutional faults, each knowing full well in secret your own personal shortcomings, though not daring to reveal them completely. The churches numbered seven, the number of perfection, they none the less were and are not. The carnality of such “institutions” must be set aside if we are to be called to “come up thither” to the throne room of Christ “in the spirit”. Each of you need to consider the state of your own heart. Is it contrite? Broken? Mormon or otherwise, God considers the heart only, not the carnal affiliation. When Israel circled Jericho seven times she symbolically married the harlot city, even as the Bridegroom has married ALL of us, harlots though we may be. THAT IS THE GOOD NEWS and is the ever repeating pattern of scripture. Our Beloved has atoned for all because he loves us and wants us to have a heart like his, without guile. Baptism or any other earthly ordinance availeth little if the heart is not pure. Is there another yardstick? God is love.

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  106. I just looked at Mike Baker’s earlier post of disparaging quotes, given by Mormon prophets concerning other churches. Sounds an awful lot like what John saw. Outward religion has changed little in 2,000 years. Mike would turn the tables and indite the Mormon’s with their own accusations. He is right, as are the Mormon prophets. All religion is outwardly corrupt, we know this scripturally. There is no debate. Why point fingers.

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  107. You were all talking earlier about actually going to vicarious baptisms that your friends had done, but first off, you couldn’t have, because those are only done in the temple, and you wouldn’t be able to go in to see that done. so you couldn’t have seen vicarious baptisms done. second, you said that the belief in vicarious ordinances is false. what about christ and the atonement? is that not a vicarious action? do we not all at least agree that he paid for our sins in Gethsemane and that he was lifted up on the cross for our sins? I know that he did pay for our sins, i know that he did die for me personally and every one of you as well, and i know that without a shadow of a doubt. what happened to what christ’s teachings in Matt. 7 where he warned his disciples about false prophets, and then gives the way to know whether they are true or not? did he not say that “by their fruits ye shall know them?” So far, all of the fruits you have given are slanderous statements against someone elses religion and set of beliefs, and taking statements out of context. i hope that one day you will all soften your hearts and at least do what christ would want us to, Love each other.

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  108. To Brenda and any other mormons on here,
    I want to ask you one question and will leave it at that.

    IF, what we are saying is TRUE
    IF, all the informatio we have given you in accurate and well documented
    IF, we are truly speaking in love to you as someone who deeply cares about your eternal salvation

    If all of this is true…
    Do you see that you would be headed to hell, a lake of fire and brimstone for all eternity?

    Please do not respond by callously saying, but I know it’s not true so I do not worry. The question put forth is “IF” it is all true what we have said, do you see how you are all headed for hell?

    Just something for you to think about today. Let your conscience bear witness with the Scripture of the Bible alone. God’s Word stands on its own and needs no new revelation.
    You have our prayers and we just want you to see that their will be consequences for not accepting the Jesus of the Bible.

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  109. mike (not Mike Baker),

    One thing we need to remember is this: Jesus’ vicarious atonement is the only “vicarious” act that is acceptable to God. We can do nothing to make those who have already fallen asleep righteous before God. That requires a sacrifice that is acceptable to God. The only such sacrifice is the one Jesus made on the Cross. Our works (e.g., vicarious baptism) will not justify anybody before God, especially those who have fallen asleep. Their judgment is already sealed. (Hebrews 9:27)

    All the quotes we have given have been actual, historic quotes of actual Mormon prophets, taken in their proper context. Read the literature they are taken from if you do not believe us.

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  110. Wow, I need new contacts, my spelling was prety bad on that last post. I guess when you wear the 2-week contacts for a few months, problems will arise. Plus getting up at 2:30 every morning doesn’t help either!

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  111. Mike (not me),

    Unfortunately, it was only I who was talking about vicarious baptisms. I wish we could talk about the theology behind it… but no one wants to discuss that. I do not know the secrets and procedures of the LDS church because I have never and still am not a member. I am telling you the truth by saying that I witnessed a baptism in an LDS building that was not for the person being immersed, but for someone who was already dead. I am telling you that I was invited by the individual who was baptized and that I spoke to some of the leaders of the church after the baptism took place. You can believe me or not, but that is what happened.

    Just because something is a policy does not mean that it is followed universally all of the time. For example, only Roman Catholics who have gone to Private Confession can receive Holy Communion from a Roman Catholic Priest, but there is video on Youtube of cross-dressing gay men dressed as nuns receiving communion. That is a violation of policy and procedure, but it happened.

    If you say that I should not have been there then I take your word for it, but that does not change the fact that I was there and I did see it. As a matter of fact, I wish that I had not been there so I think that the policy of hiding this bad practice from scrutiny is a prudent thing.

    …and even if I’m lying and I didn’t actually see it (which I have already said is not the case), that does not change the fact that it is done today by the LDS and that it is a bad practice which is rendered impossible and unneccesary by the inerrant testimony of Holy Scripture. For Paul says, “And just as it is appointed for man to die once, AND AFTER THAT COMES JUDGEMENT.” [Heb 9:27] And Jesus Himself said to the UNBAPTIZED thief on the cross, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” [Luke 23:43] The Gospel of Christ says that faith is the only requirement. If YOUR Gospel says something else, then that is between you and God.

    Paul pointed the finger at the Galatians and said, “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.” [Gal 1:5-8]

    As to using the vicarious atonement of Christ as a model for vicarious baptism, I have this response:

    You are not Christ. You have no vicarious authority. When Christ said, “It is finished!” and died the act of atonement was complete. Each individual is accountable to God for their sin and there is but one Mediator between God and man who takes sin away: Jesus Christ. As it is written, “So then each one of us shall give account of himself to God.” [Rom 14:12] Forgiveness is aprehended by grasping the promise of salvation of Christ by faith alone. The dead do not need to believe, their belief has already been proven right or wrong either way. There are no athiests or agnostics in the world to come… and so baptism is of no use to them.

    My quotes and statements are not taken out of context. I have read more Mormon texts than most Mormons.

    To Everyone,

    The one, holy and apostolic faith which is centered on Jesus Christ the Son of God and His holy work of salvation for all men; which was preached and recorded in Holy Scripture by the apostles who saw Him face to face and sealed by their dedicated martyrdom; is THE true religion. It is perfect in its doctrine and practice.

    This church is invisible to the eyes of man. It is a Kingdom of Heaven that exists in all times and places which Christ as its High Priest and King. The visible churches that you see here on earth are imperfect because there are members of those “religions” are not a part of the Body of Christ. They are the goats among the sheep. They are the thistles among the wheat. They are the hypocrites that are known only to God that live among the believers. They are the poison, the false prophets, the antichrists that deceive their brothers and betray Christ by their deceit and hard hearts.

    But the religion that is believed by the invisible church of Jesus Christ manifests itself all of the time. If you are patient and humble you can see glimpses of it in those places where the Gospel is preached in its purity and the sacraments are properly administered in accordence with Holy Scripture. In those places, the Word is present and the Holy Spirit draws all sheep to the Great Shepherd.

    This religion has never and will never be extinguished. It grew up from the time of the apostles to the present day along with the weeds, the goats, the thisles, and the false prophets. It is preserved by the power of God Himself. As Christ told Peter, “The gates of Hell will not prevail against it.” [Matt 16:18]

    Individuals, leaders, councils, and entire sects will error and fall away from the one true faith… but Christ’s perfect religion is perserved. The pure and holy power of God keeps the light of salvation alive in a dark and lost world. It is that light that must be shown on all of the places of darkness.

    It is not about finger pointing. I have been (and probably remain) a greater hypocrite than anyone here. It is not about pointing fingers and assigning blame as if I had any place to judge. It is about taking the light of Christ and presenting it for all people to expose all errors.

    It is not about being right. It is about telling the truth. I pray that when the day comes one when of you presents me with the truth of God’s Word, the Holy Spirit will cause me to be receptive to it. I know and fully recognize that I am flawed.

    …but in this case, my point does not rest on my terrible testimony and foolishness. I do not reference my own ability. The Word of God is clear and the doctrines of the one, holy and apostolic faith are flawless. When I am bound to those, I know that I am correct.

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  112. I am a Lutheran. As an imprefect teacher (NOT an inspired prophet) Luther said many terrible, incorrect, and inflamatory things. I invite anyone to quote one of his outlandish and/or sinful statements. I will gladly call out the founder of my sect on his failure and show you evidence that the Lutheran church… and even Luther himself retracted and apologized. I will show you where we make our doctrine clear and do not try to hide behind excuses. It is all about the clear, objective truth.

    And most importantly, I will show you how Luther’s credibility is of no consequence to the faith of Lutherans. I can show you how Luther’s teachings were not new and that they did not originate with that man. I can show you how it would be possible to hold to Lutheran doctrine even if Luther never existed… which cannot be said for many other faiths to include the LDS.

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  113. I grew up in the Methodist Church and John Wesley preached God’s Word without fail too. Did he make mistakes? yes. But he never claimed to be a prophet, just one preaching God’s Word. The methodist do not follow Wesley any more than Lutherans follow Luther. The Word can and does stand on its own. Mormons cannot make that claim. Wesley taught (and so did Luther), God’s Law (the Ten Commandments), the need to repent of sins and to put your trust and faith in Jesus Christ alone to save you! We are saved by faith, not of works lest any man should boast (and isn’t it interesting that Joseph Smith said, “I boast that no man has done a greater work than I, not Paul, not Peter, not even Jesus Himself did a greater work than I did. When they can get rid of me, the devil will also flee.” That is in mormons history and documented by the LDS Church!!

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  114. I hope that the point that Brian and I are trying to make really sinks in.

    We have no mediator between God and us other than Christ. Every last piece of our church could be found to be a total fraud; every pastor, founder, and every member could be revealed to be a total liar; but the objective truth of God’s Word remains untouched and constant. It is as permenant today as it was 2,000 years ago. Those who teach us do not share anything new. They only repeat that which has been preserved. Their personal credibility does not reflect on the credibility of their message because the message exists apart from them. They are not the sole source of the revelation.

    This is not the case in churches with progressive revelation: (LDS, JW, Roman Catholicism, some Pentecostals, etc). Their claims hinge on the credibility of single witnesses who can (and always are) proven to be innacurate by virtue of their human falibility. Since all men error, all prophets error to some degree or another when they rely on themselves. Error is the key indicator of divine revelation. God does not make mistakes. If someone reveals some new truth that is absolutely true, but that revelation has mistakes in it that are proven false (the JW 1914 prophesy for example), then they are not a credible witness.

    Even secular courts hold “witness credibility” as essential to getting the truth. If your truth relies on a man, his credibility has to be flawless. If he is not flawless, you do not know when he is making a mistake.

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  115. Brian’s a Methodist, Mike Baker’s Lutheran, I’m Southern Baptist. Yet the three of us can call each other a brother in Christ because we believe in the same Triune God (uncreated, eternal, unchaging. Father, Son, Holy Spirit–and these three are one), the same Christ (eternal, having no beginning, no end, miraculously begotten by the Holy Spirit), and the same salvation (by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ).

    Do we have some differences of opinion about certain things? Yes we do. But here’s where the three of us differ from Mormons: We believe that the 66 canonical books of the Bible were God-breathed, that they alone are His perfect word, and that any other books that wish to be considered “inspired” must agree 100% with this written word. Otherwise, it is of the devil.

    We do not look to our pastors as “prophets”, speaking from the very mouth of God. We are imperfect men asking for God’s guidance in understanding His perfect word. We are not looking to add anything more to His word.

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  116. We are all coming from the same point of reference. Our theological differences (which are many and significant) are matters of exegesis and commentary… not authority. We all know that God’s revelation to man in the form of Holy Scripture is sufficient and complete.

    Progressive revelation belief systems inadvertantly demain the completeness of Holy Scripture. Without meaning to, they say that the message that Christ preached in the four Gospels was incomplete and did not contain all of the neccessary doctrine needed for salvation. It is this sublte assumption that Trinitarian Christians take issue with. I often hear Progressive revelationists say things like, “We believe that God still speaks.” My answer to them is, “We believe that God still speaks as well… using the exact same words and message since the very beginning.”

    God’s Word is so beautiful because it is independently sufficient. The merciful Savior told us eveything that we needed to know for salvation and His apostles faithfully preserved that saving message in its entirity. There are no additional prophesies, writings, or revelations are required. Christ returned to heaven with His work totally complete. He did not leave His sheep hanging or uninformed. It is finished.

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  117. 2nd Timothy 3:14-15–“But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”

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  118. I only read about the first half of the posts here, and so I hope I’m not repeating anything, but frankly that’s a lot of reading. One thing that struck me is the repeated statements that Mormons worship a false Christ and a false God. I think this is an unfortunate take on the situation. There is only one Christ and one God. If you believe otherwise, you are no kind of Christian I’ve ever heard of. If they claim to be worshiping and placing their faith in that same God and that same Christ, why not take them at their word? Does the fact that they believe that God and Jesus did or said some different things (as crazy as those things may seem and/or in fact be), or the fact that they may believe different (frankly irrellevant) biographical details (however contrived or baseless we may view them) mean they are worshipping a different God? I say absolutely not.

    Let’s say that you and I have a mutual friend. I am 100% certain that friend was with me on Tuesday watching TV. You, however, claim to be 100% certain you saw him at the grocery store at the same time. Obviously only one of us is correct as to where our freind was and what he was doing at that time. Does that automatically mean that our friend is actually two different people, or that only one of us is truly friends with him? Of course not.

    I am not a Romney supporter nor am I a fan of Mormon doctrine as I understand it, but despite the fact that based on my admittedly moderately-informed understanding of Mormonism, it contains some of the more bizzare and fantastic doctrines this side of Scientology, I am willing to accept them as Christians. Observant Mormons live clean lives that more mainstream Christians should aspire to, and they are more devoted to their own understanding of Christ than are most of the mainstream Christians I know, as manifested both by their words, their actions, and their lives in general. This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t point out to them in appropriate circumstances where we think they’re wrong about facts and even try to convert them to denominations that we think promote more accurate understandings of Christ, but to suggest that simply based on mistakenly believing Christ visited America or even that he was Satan’s good brother, Mormons will go to Hell in the name of Christ is to me preposterous. If you can put your faith in Jesus, live according to God’s law, but still go to hell over doctrinal details, I find it hard to see how Jesus could be as profound a savior as I believe him to be, and that I think most of you believe him to be deep down, as well.

    There’s my two cents.

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  119. “Why not take them at their word??”

    They are not preaching the same Jesus. Their Jesus cannot save them on that final day! Their Jesus is a brother of Lucifer. Their Jesus is not sufficient to cleanse us of all our sins (see my blog posting today). Their Jesus is not the creator of the whole universe. Just because they want to be called a Christian, and just because they live “good” lives, although to worship a false god is by no means living a “good” life, unless it is the Jesus of the Bible, they do not fall nto that category. They are called mormons because they follow moroni (or mormo). Do we call ourselves Paulians, or Peterians? no! we only follow Christ of the Bible.

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  120. Dear Dan,

    Thank you for your comments and concern. As one who has studied Mormonism for several years, I can confidently say that the Mormon version of Jesus is not the true Jesus. If I took a rock from my back yard and called it Jesus, it wouldn’t make it the true Jesus. If I put my trust in it, it will not save me on the day of judgment.

    But don’t just take my word for it that Christians and Mormons worship two different Jesus’:

    In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ.’ ‘No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this Dispensation of the Fullness of Times.
    Gordon B. Hinckley
    LDS Church News
    Page 7
    June 20, 1998

    It is true that many Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons or The Church of Latter-day Saints.
    Bernard P. Brockbank
    The Ensign
    Page 26
    May 1977

    And virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ.
    Bruce R. McConkie
    Mormon Doctrine
    Page 269
    1966 Edition

    The Christian God is the Mormon’s Devil.
    Brigham Young
    Journal of Discourses
    Volume 5 Page 331
    1857

    Salvation is found in only one source, the true Jesus Christ; the Way, the Truth and the Life. All others are counterfeits and salvation is not found in them. That’s why Jesus warned us to be aware that there will be MANY CHRISTS claiming to be Him. The Jesus of Christianity and the “Jesus” of Mormonism are incompatible.

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  121. My guess is he agrees with the quotes from the mormon leaders. he must not have read the first paragraph of what you wrote. I’ll put one line of it here…
    “I can confidently say that the Mormon version of Jesus is not the true Jesus.”

    How sad if he missed that line! Blindness with eyes that can see is so very evident in the mormon church.

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  122. The Jesus of Christianity and the “Jesus” of Mormonism are incompatible.

    hint: you might want to add one more line here to say —
    The Jesus of the Bible is the true Jesus and the Jesus of Mormonism is the false Jesus!!

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  123. Sorry Walker, you have let your church tell you what and who Jesus is. You are following a false christ. Read the Bible and let that be your only source of information because we know that is the true Word of God! With all of the resources on this post and mine and others, you are following after a false god. Please take time to read them!

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  124. Dan,

    You are correct in saying “there is only one Christ.” However, the apostle Paul does warn us about following “another Christ”:

    Galatians 1:8–“But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.”

    2nd Corinthians 11:4–“For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!”

    As far as your analogy about watching TV with your friend, etc. Let me give you a better analogy. Assume these facts about me are true:

    I was born in San Antonio Texas
    I never left texas until I was 30 years old
    I went to Abraham Lincoln High in San Antonio
    I attended Texas A&M, and graduated with a Bachelor’s in Agricultural Engineering.
    I have never been married.

    Now, suppose someone tells you “Yeah, I know fourpointer. We went to high school together in Detroit. He was an all-state basketball player. We graduated from U of Michigan law school. In fact, that’s where he met his wife.”

    Would we be talking about the same person? Absolutely not. In much the same way, but with eternal consequences, Mormons believe in a false idea of God and Christ. They believe that God the Father was created–born to a set of parents in another universe just like you and I were born to our parents. They believe He had to learn how to be God. They believe that the Trinity–the Father, Son and Holy Spirit–are three separsate “Gods”.

    They believe that Jesus and Lucifer were “spirit brothers” before the creation of this universe, even though Nehemiah 9:6 makes it clear that the angels were created by God the Son (Colossians 1:16, John 1:3). This is why we are so determined to get the truth out there, that Mormonism is part of that “broad way” that leads to destruction.

    I hope this helps.

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  125. That is interesting and troubling stuff. Help me out, if you would. My understanding from Mormons I’ve known is that the Bible is accepted by Mormons as fully as it is by mainstream Christians, and that they simply adopt another additional book in a way similar to the way Christians accept both the Old Testament and the New, versus Jews who accept only the old. Clearly the quotes offered by Pilgrim cast doubt on the accuracy of that representation.

    So I guess my questions are as follows:
    Do Mormons accept the Bible as we do? Or even in part?

    a) If so, is their version of the basic Bible altered in some way so as to make their belief of Jesus and God’s origins somehow compatible with their basic Bible (ie aside from the Book of Mormon)?

    b) If not, then why do they so often claim to accept the Bible when a quote from no less than Brigham Young himself seems to indicate that our Bible leads to not only a mistaken or incomplete picture of God, but rather an intrinsically evil one?

    It just seems to me that, right or wrong, they have to have a more consistent set of beliefs than what this set of comments would suggest.

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  126. Dear Dan,

    Thanks for the question. Because of your interest in this topic, I have posted quotes from Mormon leaders on what they really believe about the Bible. Check it out here.

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  127. I’ve spent a good deal of time reading down through these many posts till the sun has gone down. The time was well spent.

    One question:

    From christos post:
    Mormonism: This means God the Father, his son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, each one is an individual god.

    Christianity: It means the “Trinity;” three divine Persons who are of the same substance; three persons, but one God.

    Is the mormon’s view a Oneness theology?

    I wonder if (one reason) some Mormon persons, or any entangled within a false faith, find it so difficult to embrace these truths brought out is because to admit they have believed a lie for years would be knowing also that they’ve sent their own children along the same path. What a truly harsh reality it would be to realize you’ve sent your own children down the path of error. That burden of regret could break a heart.

    Mike:
    It is not about being right. It is about telling the truth.

    And yet so many accuse those who speak so as being attacking. Somehow it has become unloving to disagree. If so, then Jesus would be categorized as the most unloving among us because He certainly did some disagreeing and exposing of error when He walked this earth.

    Thank you for this blog and your willingness to confront error.

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  128. Dear Ceraphina,

    Thank you for your kind words. If I may answer your question about the LDS trinity:

    No, theirs is not of the Oneness theology.
    Yes, they believe that three separate gods make up the trinity. Mormons are polytheists, they believe in the existence of millions of gods, and that they too will one day join the ranks of godhood.

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  129. Brenda you said

    “Brenda Says: 1, December 15, 2007 at 1:11 pm
    Brian,
    No, feelings from Satan and feelings from the Holy Ghost are very different. Satan is the greatest deceiver, but he cannot bring peace and light into one’s soul. Only the Holy Ghost can do that.”

    Brenda, didn’t St Paul warn us about a different gospel, a different spirit and a false jesus? Also, didn’t he warn us if any brings another gospel into play, to include himself or An Angel of Light may God’s curse come upon him? 2 Corinthians11:4-6; 4. You seem so gullible: you believe whatever anyone tells you even if he is preaching about another Jesus than the one we preach, or a different spirit than the Holy Spirit you received, or shows you a different way to be saved. You swallow it all.
    5. Yet I don’t feel that these marvelous “messengers from God,” as they call themselves, are any better than I am.
    6. If I am a poor speaker, at least I know what I am talking about, as I think you realize by now, for we have proved it again and again. Also Paul predicates the truth using Galatians 1:8-9 8. Let God’s curses fall on anyone, including myself, who preaches any other way to be saved than the one we told you about; yes, if an angel comes from heaven and preaches any other message, let him be forever cursed.
    9. I will say it again: if anyone preaches any other Gospel than the one you welcomed, let God’s curse fall upon him.
    Yes, Satan will fool even the elect….By scripture you are wrong, and honestly, you seem to be playing Satan’s advocate to some degree. and I am sure that you are unaware. I will pray for you.
    Jesus is Lord
    Jeff

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  130. Thank you, Pilgrim. I remember hearing some that but had forgotten. Very scary.

    Agreed Jeff. I have prayed for Brenda, and her children, this morning. I can’t help but think that the Holy Spirit is calling her out into His Light. I think it will be a more than difficult struggle for her since she has invested so many years and it may take time. But still, there is a peace in knowing God will have whom He has chosen.

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  131. Agreed Ceraphina. I believe this is why she seems to be struggling somewhat and mainly with herself…. Sometimes pride can blind us…. (Ask Satan, just kidding). I have a friend in a cult that worships according to feelings and disregards doctrine and scripture, as hogwash. I have come to the conclusion that you can take a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. My friend is blind to scripture but she wants to come over, now and then, just to fight with me concerning her belief. She uses hocus-pocus and I use the Bible with her point for point. Each time she gets mad and states, “I have been walking with the Lord for over thirty years and I have been saved longer than you have.” I aways ask her. Since you have walked for thirty years plus then why haven’t you bothered to read and study scriptures once in awhile? So many people carry Bibles but so few actually bother to read the little black lines on the pages…..I am amazed at times.
    Have a Blessed Day
    Jesus is Lord
    Jeff

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  132. Brenda, You sure are knowledgeable. I was a missionary in Texas 35 years ago. Every day I answered questions and criticism like these. I worked hard at teaching and instructing people. I love Texas and came to love many good baptist/evangelical people. I was so excited when i heard that a temple was being built in Dallas so many years ago. The church has grown tremendously in the Dallas area. Its healthy and has created a good influence in the community with it’s programs. To all those who criticize the Church of Jesus Christ of latter Day Saints. I say one thing, read the Book of Mormon. If it is a heresy then you must read it and become familiar with it to save those who are lost. If it’s not a heresy and true written by ancient American prophets and testifies of the divinity of Christ and reveals truth then you must read it to enlarge your own soul. You can dismiss Joseph Smith as a prophet of God but you can not dismiss the Book of Mormon. I know the Book of Mormon is true, It testifies of Christ his mission and the great atonement. It strengthens the Holy Bible and reenforces the truths found in the Bible. I always asked my friends a question. If Jesus wanted to couldn’t he walk on the moon? The answer comes back, “Of course he could, he walked on water, raised the dead, I suppose he could walk on the moon if he wanted to”. My response is” then why couldn’t he walk on American soil”?

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  133. Jim,
    So basically, you are saying St. Paul was a heretic when he wrote Galatians 1:6-9, and whereas he warned us about additional gospels? Saint Paul declared, “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”

    You are using circular logic, which you are making a weak and somewhat shaky point since; hypothetically Jesus could have walked on the earth. Therefore, according to you, he could have inspired the Book of Mormon! Yes, he could walk on earth, so I can’t argue with that. You are correct Jesus could have walked on the earth! Sure Jesus can walk on the moon too, why not he created it. So how does this make the Book of Mormon true? Yes or no, In the Book of Job, in two places, 1:7 and 2:2 , Satan came into the presence of God, and the Lord said unto Satan, whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, from going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it! So using your logic you could make the same claim for Satan, since he too walked on the earth! Perhaps the Mormons were fooled by Satan, which coincides with scripture…..

    “However, your logic has nothing to do with the Book of Mormon as being inspired by God. Was St. Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit or not? So would the Trinity lie to one another? Is the Godhead in the business as being confused? I think not. Are the scriptures of the Holy Bible inspired by the Holy Spirit or not? If you say the Book of Mormon was inspired then accordingly, you are declaring Saint Paul and the Holy Spirit liars? Since scripture inspired by the Holy Spirit is faulty, by your logic, then what other addition books are also from God; perhaps the Hindus, the Muslims, Moonie and etc? The Holy Bible does not need support from the Book of Mormon, Islam or anyone else. The Islamic story is almost identical to the Mormons, except for geographic location and time-frame.

    I will put my money on St. Paul and the Holy Spirit.

    Jesus is Lord
    Jeff

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  134. LumpymeatLoaf, excellent name, I love meatloaf. Please read Deuteronomy Chap 4: verse 2. Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it. That ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you. According to this there shouldn’t be any new revelations or scripture after Deuteronomy. May I quote from the Book of Mormon 2 nephi 29 verses 10 -12: Wherefore, because that ye have a bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words: neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written. 11. For i command all men both in the east (Israel) and in the west (america) and in the north and in the south and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them: for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written. 12 For behold I speak unto the Jews and they shall write it: and I shall also speak unto the Nephites (ancient americans) and they shall write it: and I shall speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all the nations of the earth and they shall write it. end. Backing up a little 2 Nephi 29:7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea: and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath: and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth? Just some food for thought.

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  135. Jim

    If you ever ate my late mother’s meatloaf you would have a different mindset.

    I agree with you; you need to practice what you preach. The Mormon religion does add to the scriptures, to include works. In the Book of Revelation it says, “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”
    As far as the Book of Mormon, I have read through it. Before properly disposing of it, I came to the conclusion that most of the tasteful scripture came from the Holy Bible, but it rambles (like the Koran). Like I said, I will stick to Saint Paul and the Holy Spirit. What is next? Do I need to read from the Koran too? Again, there is no tangible proof that Saint Paul and the Holy Spirit are faulty or has God changed his mind by adding additional scripture. You have no proof that the Book of Mormon is valid………Also,where exactly are these golden tablets, perhaps you could use them for proof?
    You said not me, “You can dismiss Joseph Smith as a prophet of God but you can not dismiss the Book of Mormon.” Why not, if one can doubt one; why not the other? Wasn’t he instrumental with the visions from the angel Moroni or perhaps he was let us say mistaken? Proving anything, he said is like your Jesus walking on earth story, which does not prove that the book is inspired; no more than the fact that Satan too has walked on earth. Sir, you are grabbing at straws…….

    Again Sir, I will keep my money on Saint Paul and the Holy Spirit. Have a good day.

    Jesus is Lord
    Jeff

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  136. Jim,

    Notice, in the passage from Deuteronomy, God says, “YE shall not add unto the word I command you…” He did not say that He Himself would not add to it. Which He did with the Psalms, and the Proverbs, the Gospels, etc. (But not the Book of Mormon.) Jospeh did indeed add to it when he wrote the Book of Mormon. I have read the BOM and find it contradicts not only the Bible, but other Mormon “Scriptures” (Compare D&C 132:8-10 with Jacob 2:23-27).

    You said, “You can dismiss Joseph Smith as a prophet of God but you cannot dismiss the Book of Mormon.” This does not make sense. If Joseph was not a prophet of God, then who appeared to him in the grove? Who took him to the golden plates? (Was it an angel of God? or of Satan?) In fact, who showed him how to translate the plates? Who made the words appear to him while he had his head in the hat? If he was not a prophet of God, then how can you say the BOM comes from God?

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  137. Jim said:
    “May I quote from the Book of Mormon 2 nephi 29 verses 10 -12: Wherefore, because that ye have a bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words:”

    This very verse proves that the Book of Mormon was not of God, but of Joseph Smith’s own imagination, thus rendering it a false book (and a false religion).

    You see, the use of the word “Bible” was a big mistake for Joesph to make. This verse was supposedly written between 559 and 545 BC, however, the word “Bible” hadn’t been created yet.

    And all that “King James English” that the Book of Mormon is written in . . . a thousand years before its time.

    One would not expect an uneducated farm boy to to take these things into account.

    And don’t even get me started on the scientific and Archeological facts that prove the Book of Mormon to be a falsehood.

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  138. And don’t even get me started on the scientific and Archeological facts that prove the Book of Mormon to be a falsehood.

    Or the fact that they had to change the site of that last battle from Palmyra, NY to “somewhere” in Central America to make it jive with those fatcs.

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  139. The early mormon churched believed in Joseph Smith as being a true prophet of God. Joseph Smith himself said that he held the keys to the kingdom of heaven. A person had to believe in BOTH Jesus and Joseph Smith. Now you are saying that Joseph Smith does not matter?? The very foundation of the Mormon faith has changed and hinges on whether Joseph Smith was truly a prophet of God. He was not. His prophecies (many of them) never came true and he put time constraints on them so the time has passed, which makes him a false prophet. Do not follow him is what the bible says.

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  140. One of my favorite things about Joseph Smith is that when all this began he was 14 years of age. A good boy obedient to his parents a hard worker on the farm. His older brother was building a nicer home for their family. the family worked together through much difficulty. He had God fearing parents and came from strong New England stock. One of my favorite pictures done by a talented artist in watercolor is of Joseph returning from the grove of trees to go home after his first vision. He has on tattered overalls is barefooted with a simple cotton shirt on. It struck me very powerfully that the Lord had chosen a clean vessel through whom to restore his church to the earth. Someone who was teachable not perfect by any means. Someone who had good family support. When he told his mother and father what had happened they believed him and told him to follow the instructions he received. He did and from that very day marvelous things have happened. He said, I had beheld a vision. I have thought since that I felt much like paul, when he made his defense before King Agrippa, and related the account of the vision he had when he saw a light, and heard a voice: but still there was but a few that believed him. Some said he was dishonest, others said he was mad, and he was ridiculed and reviled. But all this did not destroy the reality of the vision…. So it was with me. (Joseph Smith) I had seen a light and in the midst of that light I saw two personages, and they did in reality speak to me: and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision, yet it was true.And while they were persecuting me, reviling me,and speaking all manner of evil against me falsely for so saying. I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a vision: and who am I that I can actually withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually seen? For I have seen a vision: I knew it, and I knew God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend god, and come under condemnation. In 1844 on a hot June afternoon Joseph was murdered for his beliefs with his brother Hyrum the same brother who held his leg for many hours each day when Joseph was 8 to help him recover from a leg operation. His family has always stood by him and supported him as do millions of others. Oh as far as dismissing Joseph Smith as a prophet… I’m sorry, I meant to say you can dismiss him if you choose to.

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  141. It was well documented that Joseph Smith was a “money-digger” who was fascinated with–and performed–occultic practices. That’s why he used the “seer stone” placed in a hat to “translate” the BOM (Hmm. If he had the “gift of translating” then why did he use a stone in a hat while the plates were in a crate, or off in the woods?). And what kind of “seer stone” did he use?

    Joseph’s mother Lucy said, “I knew not what he meant, but took the article of which he spoke into my hands, and, upon examination, found that it consisted of two smooth three-cornered diamonds set in glass, and the glasses were set in silver bows, which were connected with each other in much the same way as old fashioned spectacles. He took them again and left me, but said nothing respecting the Record. (Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith the Prophet and his Progenitors for Many Generations, page 101)

    However, Mormon historian B.H. Roberts is quoted as saying, “The Seer Stone referred to here was a chocolate-colored, somewhat egg-shaped stone which the Prophet found while digging a well in the company of his brother Hyrum, for a Mr. Clark Chase, near Palmyra, N.Y. It possessed the qualities of Urim and Thummim, since by means of it — as described above — as well as by means of the Interpreters found with the Nephite record, Joseph was able to translate the characters engraven on the plates.” (Comprehensive History of the Church, Vol. 1, page 129)

    Isaac Hale, Joseph’s father-in-law said, “Smith stated to me, that he had given up what he called “glass-looking,” and that he expected to work hard for a living, and was willing to do so… Soon after this, I was informed they had brought a wonderful book of Plates down with them…The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret, was the same as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, and his hat over his face, while the Book of Plates were at the same time hid in the woods!” (The Susquehanna Register, May 1, 1834)

    Even David Whitmer, one of the Three Witnesses to the BOM said this: ” I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing.” (An Address to All Believers in Christ, by David Whitmer, 1887, p.12)

    How many times do we find warnings in the Bible about using divination and witchcraft. Yet Joseph Smith used it to come up with his fanciful tale of a fictional Jewish family and a war that took place in upstate New York (or was it Central America? Have they figured that out yet?) I hate to tell you, but Joepsh Smith was not an “honest young man.” He was a very imaginative young man who was obsessed with the occult.

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  142. Dear Jim,

    That was a good story, (and you completely ignored all the arguments set forth above) but when one looks beyond all the spin, history reveals a much different Joseph Smith. It’s those who choose to examine the evidence of Joseph Smith and Mormonism that know better than to ever become Mormons.

    Let me touch on just three of the many points in your comment.

    1). You mentioned Joseph’s age at the time of his supposed visitation as 14. Did you know that there are other versions of the “first vision” that put him at different ages? Why have you settled on that version? Are the other versions not as valid or were they not true?

    2). In this vision that you cited above, you were careful to avoid mentioning that he was supposedly told that all Christians, their churches, and their doctrines were an abomination to God. Why the avoidance?

    3). And finally, Joseph Smith was primarily murdered, not for his false religion, but because he ordered the Navouu Expositor press be burned to the ground. Why? Because they dared to print opinions that were in opposition to his teaching (and practice) of Polygamy. How conveniently overlooked is that little piece of information! Truth is the people were tired of Joseph Smith always causing problems and the destruction of private property and attack on the first amendment freedom of speech was the last straw. Oh, and you also overlooked that Joseph Smith shot and killed two other men during this incident. Minor detail forgotten!

    You see, all it takes is for someone to look past the smoke and mirrors and Mormonism falls flat on its face. It cannot stand the test of history, science, archeology, theology, hermeneutics etc.

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  143. Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more,save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. Doctrine and Covenants 135:3. This astonishing declaration describes a man who was called of God at the age of 14 and lived only until the age of 38. Between Joseph Smiths birth in Vermont in December of 1805 and his tragic death in June of 1844, marvelous things occurred, God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ, appeared to him, teaching him more about the nature of God than had been known for centuries. Ancient prophets and apostles bestowed sacred priesthood power upon Joseph, making him a new, authorized witness of the God in these latter days. An incomparable outpouring of knowledge and doctrine was revealed through the prophet, including the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of great Price. Through him, the Lords true church was organized once again upon the earth. Today, the work that commenced with Joseph Smith moves forward throughout the world. Of the Prophet Joseph Smith, President Wilfred Woodruff testified: ” He was a prophet of God, and he laid the foundation of the greatest work and dispensation that has ever been established on the earth.”

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  144. Jim,

    I appreciate your comments and willingness to correspond, but stop with the public relations service announcements already. You’re no longer discussing the issues but instead, just regurgitating skewed LDS history of a man who has been proven time and time again as a fraud. It’s not even debatable. Anyone with a shred of common sense can see through the LDS rhetoric.

    You keep harping on how wonderful Joseph Smith was, but had he lived in Old Testament times he would have been stoned to death as a false prophet. (You can check out just a handful of his false prophecies here).

    Please stick to the discussion. You’re evasive tactics are not helping your cause.

    -The Pilgrim

    P.S. Check out this quote from Joseph Smith.

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  145. Jim sounds as though he hasn’t read any of the posts he said he read (unless he only read Brenda’s).

    To echo Pilgrim’s sentiments, please stop with the lies about Joseph Smith. He was a huckster, a charlatan, a fraud, a hoax. And far from leading people to God, he has led many away from God and straight into Hell (right after he got there).

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  146. As a missionary in Texas 35 years ago I had many discussions with many people of all religions mostly good baptist people and evangelical folks.. I talked with many Jewish people around the Dallas area ,they were the nicest. I was just 20 years old or so at the time met some wonderful people. I met many who really disliked Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. One of the funniest incidents was when I knocked on the door of a house in Cleburne and an older woman in her 80’s came to the door and immediately recognized us and said. I use the Book of Mormon for kindling! Slam. I still giggle about that incident it was so unexpected. I meant no disrespect when I knocked on her door and the thousands of others I knocked on. Another time my companion and I we came to a door and you could hear very loudly Jazz music coming from a stereo system. The screen was open and the man was dancing in the living-room to the music. Immediately he said, “sorry boys, I’m a chicken eating Methodist”. For some reason i looked at my companion and then the man and asked, ” is that the same as a pork eatin Jew”. We laughed and had a good discussion. I still remember that wonderful event after so many years. Another time in Marshall a family invited us in and we sang gospel songs together, they played guitar and we sang it was nice. My friends son recently returned from his mission in Russia were when he was tracting in an apartment complex hallway a man appeared raised a 9-mm automatic and fired, the bullet grazed his upper shoulder going through his coat. The man then aimed again and the gun jammed. This is when the missionaries forced their way by him since there was no other exit. and ran out of the area to safety. He’s home now after serving two years honorably, he didn’t cry and want to come home he stayed and finished his service. Why do 60 thousand plus missionaries preach all over the world, young people from all types of backgrounds, One reason is because the Lord commanded it, Matthew 24:14. Another is that these humble kids who pay their own way have a testimony of the divinity of the Book of Mormon and the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They are the weak and humble that are described in 1st Corinthians 1:27-28.

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  147. Oh, sorry Jim, for a moment there I thought you were describing the dedication and commitment of Jehovah’s Witnesses who by the tens of thousands go door to door preaching all over the world their version of the truth.

    Wait a second . . . if dedication and commitment prove the truth (which is your implication in your last comment) then does that mean JWs are the one true religion and Mormons are still a cult?

    If you really want to get serious, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and they’re more dedicated than both LDS and JWs. After all, I haven’t seen any of you guys blow yourselves up for your religion. So by using your argument, Islam must be the religion of truth!

    [Sarcasm over]:
    Now again Jim, I ask that you please address the issues that have been presented. Keep in mind that you’re dealing with rational, thinking individuals on this blog. We haven’t been programmed since birth to believe LDS rhetoric so your Paul Harvey-style stories in place of sound logical discourse just isn’t going to work on us.

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  148. Hey Pilgrim,

    Is it just me, or does it seem like Jim is just typing whatever comes to his mind? No rational reason for what he’s saying, just putting it out there.

    And these tales of these poor Mormon missionaries who are walking a road to destruction (and paying their own way there) is really sad.

    Jim,

    We really don’t care about your little anecdotes about eatin’ crawdads with a toothless voodoo queen in Memphis. All it tells us is that some people are just gullible, some people don’t know the truth, and some people know enough to stop you before you get inside their door. None of this gobbledy-gook you’re telling us proves the Book of Mormon is true. (Oh wait. I’m supposed to get the burning in the bosom–that will prove it’s true! Or maybe it’ll just prove I ate one too many tacos last night.)

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  149. The only thing further that I can say to swage your bitterness and anger toward members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And to bring to light their inherit goodness is a quote from the New Testament; Matthew 7:15-24. The Church of Jesus Christ of latter Day Saints and it’s members have done and are doing many good works this can not be disputed. Welfare and humanitarian aid all over the world. The addiction recovery program has helped thousands in and out of the church to recover from addictions to porn,drugs and alcohol and other addictive behaviors. The list of good works could go on and on. I know all 5 of you who have commented on my posts despise Joseph Smith , the Book of Mormon and other things the church stands for. All your efforts to disgrace and pervert the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are for nothing. Nothing you say will go beyond your sphere of influence, the programs of the church will continue unabated. In the 30 years since my mission in Texas the church has grown tremendously. When a Temple is in a particular area you know the church is strong healthy and flourishing. If the church was so terrible and it teachings so perverse why are so many of your neighbors joining it? There is an old New England saying,”thats like a fart in the wind” Your efforts to denounce the Church of Jesus Christ of latter Day Saints is like a fart in the wind, it will have no effect. I’ll leave you guys with this basic belief of the church. It is article 11 of the Articles of Faith. We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where or what they may.

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  150. Jim

    I know have never treated you with disrespect. Sir, however, let us address your attitude somewhat and you belief. If I recall, I was talking to another person when you jumped in this Reformation Post…. Your post???? Why is this your post? Are you superior or the owner? Perhaps you are a “Reformed Mormon”? Also, it is you who seem to be angered….. You are the only person to use less appropriate four-lettered language in mixed company, which I know Jesus would be proud of! It was you who seemed to get defensive when others questioned the BOM (the other book). Remember what comes out of a person’s mouth is usually a reflection of their heart. You said that 5 people hate Joseph Smith…. Let us not judge by striking out aimlessly…. How can that be, because since none of the five have talked to the Joseph Smith, but it is his writings that reflects on his heart!!! However, you do seem to get angered if one questions anything in which Saint Paul directed us to do so (being a Berean)… There was an angry wavy haired fellow on TBN that was (and still does) slinging the Holy Spirit all over the place. Upon being questioned as directed by Saint Paul, he too became angry and stated that he wanted the Holy Spirit to provide him with a righteous machine-gun to blow off the heads of those who questioned his unbiblical beliefs (hhhmmmmmm).

    You mentioned,” What about all the good works, which we (the Mormons) do”? Works does not make one saved or in God’s will or grace. What the Mormons do is wonderful, but even Adolph Hitler had orphanages, took care of the elderly and created jobs and a wonderful economy…. So are you saying that Grace of Jesus +Dead Works=Salvation? Sir, you also stated that the (True Mormon) church is growing and even your neighbors are going in groves. Sir, Matthew 7, tells me that the way is broad to hell, but the true gate and path is narrow…..

    Try to reflect and relax using breathing exercises.

    Jesus is Lord
    Jeff

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  151. Lumpy said, There was an angry wavy haired fellow on TBN that was (and still does) slinging the Holy Spirit all over the place. Upon being questioned as directed by Saint Paul, he too became angry and stated that he wanted the Holy Spirit to provide him with a righteous machine-gun to blow off the heads of those who questioned his unbiblical beliefs (hhhmmmmmm).

    Good thing you didn’t mention Paul Crouch by name! 🙂

    Jim,

    The reason I strive so hard to show people the truth about Mormonism is not because I am “angry and bitter” towrds the people themselves. I would like nothing more than for you to see that you are following false prophets–from Smith right up through Hinckley–that do not worship the TRUE God (John 17:3) or His TRUE Christ (2nd Corinthians 11:4) but are following a false gospel (Galatians 1:8-9).

    The Mormon church does indeed do “good works.” Good for them. However, these righteousnesses are only acceptable in the sight of men. Since they are not done in true righteousness (which only comes from the TRUE Christ) then they are “filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6), and will be burned like chaff, along with that person’s eternal soul.

    As far as Article 11, “We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where or what they may.” Well, Muslims worship “God” according to the dictates of their conscience. So do Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Universalists, and Moonies, etc. etc. etc. So, is the LDS church willing to identify themselves with these people?

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  152. Dear Fourpointer,
    I thought he was just cutting and pasting his comments.

    Dear Jim,
    If you and your LDS organization would be honest for a change, those increasing numbers you boast of would diminish overnight. How about starting a revolution, Jim? It can’t start right now with you! Just begin by telling the truth. Be honest. It’s a virtue of one who is truly a Christian.

    Allow me to list some “fruits” or “good works” that Mormonism has “blessed” us with:

    * The doctrine of Blood Atonement.
    * The Mountain Meadows Massacre.
    * The doctrine of polygamy.
    * The countless women who suffered from polygamy.
    * Joseph Smith’s multiple marriages (including one to a 14 year old girl).
    * Mormonism’s racial prejudice toward the African race (until 1978) teaching that blacks are cursed.
    * Joseph Smith’s false prophecies.
    * The Adam-God doctrine.
    * The false doctrine that God was once a man.
    * The false doctrine that we can become gods.
    * The false doctrine that Jesus was conceived by sexual relations between God the Father and His own daughter Mary.
    * The false doctrine that Jesus is not eternal, but a created being.
    * The false doctrine that Christ’s sacrifice was insufficient to cleanse all sins (the root of Blood Atonement).

    And the list of “good works” (and the victims of those “good works”) goes on and on and on.

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  153. Hey – discussion looks to be over, BUT read my post about the Bible revisions: http://reformationnation.wordpress.com/2007/12/28/mormon-distributor-deseret-books-now-selling-joel-osteens-become-a-better-you/#comment-1858. My time at Liberty U. shouldnt go to waste – that would be a shame. Now I know who Brenda is! I looked up a lot of those quotes you guys keep bringing up from old mormon leaders and most of them were not the actual prophet of the church – so their authority (according to what I understand about Mormon Doctrine) would be about the same as if Brenda said those things – or if Judas Iscariot tried to say something authoritatively to trump Christ while he was alive. Also, how do you guys reconcile all the vast differences between each others religions (Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, & Miscellaneous Evangelical?) There are some big doctrinal fights between your various religions – yet you must be overlooking them (believe you me – some of my theology classes ended up in small scale wars). Hey remember that time Moses commanded the Israelites to kill 1000’s of Midianite women and children? That seems worse than Mountain Meadows, Moses Church must not be true. That statement in Revelations about not adding was NOT the last thing written that was included the New Testament, chronologically, so that argument is meaningless, except for possibly meaning “don’t add to this one book of mine – Revelations, cuz thats all it is right now – one book, although someday some scholars may want to put it together with other writings (such as the 1st and 2nd books of Esdras and possibily Pauls epistle to the Laodiceans) into one big book that may someday be called the bible.” Polygamy is in again – out again in the Bible, so why not in modern times? As for me, one wife is almost too many for me now – HAHA! Also, in the Bible, the Jews werent supposed to mix with the Gentiles – how racist God was back then? Wow – I’m not a Mormon, but I am a thinker, and I just knocked out half of you guyzes warnings/arguments against Mormonism. The best statement I think I read that noone addressed was that if God is all powerful and yet he allows Satan to answer the Mormons(nickname)/actual or potential members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints/(official name) prayers which are done after the pattern set out in the Lord’s prayer, what sense does that make? That sounds like a giant loophole in God’s plan. I can pray to God in Christs name to know if something is true and God will allow Satan to answer my prayer deceptively? Your seeming answer is “Yes he will allow Satan to imitate His Spirit, SO rely on your intellect and scholarliness.” Sorry, wrong answer! I believe that any one of us that follows Gods pattern for prayer set out in the Bible and asks sincerely with faith – God will answer through his holy spirit. If you guys are telling me this is not a true tenet of Christianity, then you guys are selling some kind of snake-oil not contained in the Bible. I believe that some WILL be decieved, but not those who TRULY pray to God in Jesus name with faith that they will be answered by God. As far as God having sexual relations with Mary, I’ve heard that many times and I read your back-up which was very weak. The trump card for Mormons or LDS’ers as I like to call them – is this – if God did call a prophet in these modern times, wouldnt anything he said (like go kill all those midianites, or dont eat shellfish or pig or sleep with a women whos menstruating, or this is the REAL interpretation of the scriptures – not what the Nicene conference headed by a Pagan decided, or any of the reformers (why reform if it was all good for 2000 years as you all repeated ad nauseum) decided). All of the Protestant religions are based on the fact that the traditional Christian church was corrupt and there were men/reformers who tried to get it back the way it was. So, maybe Joseph Smith was the guy who God called to get it back the way it was – IN SPITE of all your brilliant intellectual reasonings that he wasnt. I’m not saying thats what happened, I’m just saying that if there is a guy who says hes a prophet and he tells me God wrote 10 new commandments with his finger on a tablet of stone, that I’d better have a way to find out if these 10 new commandments, or additional scripture, or whatever, is true. As far as I can tell, praying to God in Jesus name and asking with true faith and depending on him to answer me is the ONLY way. Or I could trust my intellect or Jerry Falwell or some blog – maybe those would be better than prayer . . . NOPE! Man – im a good debater, Im even amazed that Im not an LDSer yet. My problem is that I refuse to pray cuz Im scared of the answer ill get.

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  154. There are so many errors in your argument, where do I even start?

    Suffice to say Mormonism stands or falls on Joseph Smith. The fact that the passage (if anyone lacks wisdom let him pray) Joseph Smith allegedly claimed to have read in James which led him to “pray” to God was written to Christians, of which Joseph Smith was not. So his whole premise and foundation is wrong. (Not to mention the several different conflicting accounts of the first vision).

    And all the nice props set up to make Joseph Smith look like a true prophet are not only paper thin, they are lies which you must hold onto in order to still believe anything Joseph Smith said. If, in spite of the overwhelming evidence that has proven Joseph Smith to be a false prophet time and time and time and time again, you still choose to think of him otherwise, then theres’ nothing I, or anyone here can do for you. You are (for the time being) hopelessly lost.

    You can choose to continue to follow (or relentlessly defend) a man who HAS PROVEN HIMSELF A FALSE PROPHET as much as you want, but when you stand before God on the day of judgment, you will be without excuse.

    It is meaningless to discuss this with you or your group of pro-LDS (but we swear we’re not LDS friends) much further. Especially since the substance of your “debating” was revealed by your boasting with delusions of grandeur about what a successful debater you are. Debating this with you is like trying to prove the sun is hot and you keep telling me it’s not. At some point we just have to quit trying to convince the blind of what they refuse (or simply can’t) see.

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  155. TOPIC – Prayer:

    Pilgrim and the JW’s – Dont pray to God in Christs name because if you do, Satan will answer your prayer (BTW thats my favorite thing to do with JW’s – ask them to pray with me – and they ALWAYS refuse).

    Me & the rest of Christianity – If you pray to God in Christ’s name with faith regardless if you are a “Christian” or not (maybe youre a Muslim considering converting to Christianity or a Mormon considering joining Paul Washers church) God WILL & DOES answer all of his childrens prayers. NO EXCEPTIONS!!!! GOD DOES NOT CHANGE!!!!

    Man, first i debate down my LDS friends, then I debate down their fiercest critics all within 24 hrs – thats why I dont go to any church. Maybe I need to start my own – although I have no authority – just like Martin Luther DIDNT (smart guy though), John Wesley DIDNT (smart guy again), Roger Williams and John Clarke DIDNT either (Very smart guys and the founders of a nice church that has spawned over 50 different varieties based on theological DIFFERENCES), John Calvin DIDNT either, and neither does Paul Washer or John MacArthur (brilliant minds no doubt). The Pharisees or Saducees DIDNT have any authority either (very learned men indeed). I now have several options – follow the Pope (he at least claims to have a semi legitimate claim to authority) , follow those Reformers (the aforementioned group of bright fellas) who realized the Catholic Church was way off base and so started many different Christian religions which have in turn spawned thousands of different individual denominations based on theological DIFFERENCES not SIMILARITIES, or believe that God does not change and continues to call prophets in these modern times in spite of the fact that PSEUDO-intellectuals will try and discredit his prophets just as they did to His son and his apostles 2000 years ago before they KILLED them. Hmmm, maybe its time to give Tom Cruise a call . . .

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  156. And i dont want to hear any garbage about ecumenism either (but then, I know you are too smart for that anyway – arent you pilgrim).

    Ecumenism = watering down AKA lukewarmness AKA apostasy = Joel Osteen

    I feel your pain, going to heaven all alone while the rest of us burn in Hell – at least we’ll be together though – all the rest of us that God doesnt love (Jews, atheists, Buddhists, Confucianists. Hindus, Catholics, JW’s, King David, Judas, Mormons, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Muslims, Hitler, Christians who dont believe in Emporer Constantines invention of the Trinity, Lucian of Antioch (a great Christian Pioneer), Ebionites, Arius, Euzoios, Theonas of Marmarica, Secundus of Ptolemais, Eusebius of Nicomedia, Theognis of Nicaea (man, revisiting all those awesomely confusing Nicene councils that were run by Non-christian pagan emporers is a feat in unto itself), Children who die before baptism, the mentally ill, Agnostics, everyone who has ever contributed to a televangelist, televangelists, etc., etc. etc.) Sounds pretty lonely to me, hope you enjoy it. My 24 hrs is up – it sure was fun!

    PS – I’ll see you in HELL!

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  157. You make me sick Esteban! Today’s lukewarm world wants a Hollywood ending where everyone goes to Heaven. Well, that’s just not what the scriptures prophesy! By my estimates, if 30 billion people have lived since the time of Adam, then maybe 300,000 are going to heaven and the rest to Hell. All I know is that me, pilgrim, fourpointer, Christos, and lumpymeatloaf are all going cuz we know what we know and we are trying to get a few more to go with us – but if you dont want to listen then dont waste our time with your Joel Osteen-esque sweet syrupy feel good junk, A’IGHT!?

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  158. Esteban,

    Take a breath and come down off your pedestal. Allow me to tear you opinions apart one by one. First, the quotes from Mormon leaders were indeed made while they were the president/prophet. Anything they say is supposedly the word of God, and is to be heard and respected with the highest reverence.

    Many of the “doctrinal differences” between Methodists, Baptists, etc. are mostly over issues that don’t pertain to salvation (election-free will; infant baptism; pre-, mid-, or post-tribulation rapture, etc.) If a church does preach heretical doctrines about the nature and character of God, the work of Christ on the cross, etc, then they are not a church, since they do not know the true God.

    As far as Moses commanding the Israelites to kill 1000’s of Midianites, put your years at Liberty to good use, dust off your Bible, and you will find that God commanded Moses to do so. This was to cleanse the land of idolatry before the Israelites entered into Canaan. And this was indeed different from Mountain Meadows, in that God commanded the destruction of the Midianites, while Brigham Young was under the influence of Satan in his hatred and desire for revenge.

    Your appeal to the Apocrypha (by mentioning 2nd Esdras) is also wrong, since it (and the rest of the Catholic deuterocanonical books) isn’t considered inspired by anybody but Catholics who want to believe in Purgatory.

    Polygamy. Here we go again. Did you ever consider going back and examining what happened to men of God (Abraham, David, Solomon) when they took other wives to themselves? Abraham begat Ishmael through Hagar, David lost his kingdom for a while, and Solomon had to deal with Hadad and Jeroboam after he took so many wives and concubines (most of which were pagan). So rather than just skim over the Bible, let’s actually read the words of Jesus, shall we? “And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife [singular], and the two shall become one flesh’? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh.” Is polygamy any worse than any other sin? No. Will God allow us to sin for a while before He finally has enough and brings about consequences for our actions? Of course! God allowed these men to take many wives, but punished them severely when they did not repent.

    Oh boy, the whole “God is racist” thing again. Jews were not to intermarry with the Gentile peoples around them for one simple reason—these were pagan societies. They worshiped pagan gods. The Amalekites, Hivites, Jebusites, and all the other “-ites” were worshipers of Baal, Molech, Ashterah, etc. God knew what would happen if His people intermarried with such pagans. (Which is why Paul wrote what he did in 2nd Corinthians 6:14. You’re smart, you can find it.)

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  159. Esteban (cont’d),

    As far as one “praying about the book of Mormon and God allowing Satan to answer it.” If one needs to ask God if this instrument of Satan (Book of Mormon) is true—well, maybe that “burning in the bosom” (If it isn’t something the person just imagined) is God trying to tell them to throw it in the trash.

    Your comments about God having sex with Mary. Yeah, I guess our back-up arguments are weak. If you consider the Bible to be “weak.” Yeah, who wants to read that old thing anyway, huh?

    Oh, and I hate to tear up your “trump card,” but Joesph Smith was not called by God. He was a tool of Satan, who raised him up to lead millions of people astray. Nothing he wrote has any basis in truth. Besides, the Council of Nicea was not called to “invent” Christianity, but to defend it from many of the heresies in that day (Pellagianism, Arianism, Antinomianism, etc.) Far from being pagan, the council upheld the truth of the Bible. As for the Reformation, it came about, not because “it was all good for 2000 years” as you wrote. The Reformation came about to right the many wrongs that had been wrought by the Catholic church for 1500 years. You might want to read a little bit about history before you comment on something.

    Oh gee, you cut us off from using the “ecumenism” trump card. Oh gosh, what are we ever going to do? No, you are an ecumenist. If you want to join Christ to a religion that thinks He (and His Father) had to “learn” how to become Gods, and had to “progress” toward Godhood—that my friend is lukewarmness, it is apostasy, and it is, indeed ecumenism. But we are not going to be alone in Heaven. There will be “ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands.” That’s, like, a billion people, dude! Quite a bit more than the 144,000 the JW’s expect.

    Sorry friend, you’re not a good debater. You’re not even average. You have done nothing more than regurgitate every argument I have ever heard against the truth of the Bible. You said, “My problem is that I refuse to pray cuz Im scared of the answer ill get.” What answer is that, that you’re wrong about Mormonism, and you need to return to the truth of the Bible?

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  160. Romney Theobabble Clarifies/Explains Nothing; Reveals Ignorance Of Our Founding, Constitution

    By John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com; JLof@aol.com

    In a recent major address, Mitt Romney came as an angel of light to, ostensibly, clear things up and explain his Mormon religion. He did no such thing. Instead, Romney lied, revealed his historical ignorance re: our founding, he obfuscated, refused to be specific, engaged in vain theobabble, blew an uncertain trumpet, and uttered platitudes and generalities. Here’s some of what he said and my comments.

    Romney: Today, I wish to address a topic which I believe is fundamental to America’s greatness: our religious liberty.

    Comment: What is fundamental to our greatness – or was – was our acknowledgement of and worship of the one true God, the God of the Bible – not “religious liberty” which today means all religions are equally valid and thus entitled to practice their religion freely. As God says: Blessed is the nation that has Him as its God (Psalm 33:12); except He build the house, they labor in vain who build it (Psalm 127).

    There is no “religious liberty” to not worship the One, True God and worship Him in the way He says we must worship Him!

    Examples of early views which made America great would be the Mayflower Compact, those coming here saying they did so “for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith.” Also John Winthrop’s “A Model Of Christian Charity” in which in which he spoke of our covenant with God, the Lord Jesus Christ, and the necessity to obey Him if we are to succeed. In this sermon, Winthrop said that the “only way” for us to avoid shipwreck, and to provide for our posterity, was to follow the counsel of Micah: To do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with our God. This, he said, would knit us together in our work as one man. This would make us that “City upon a hill,’ with all the eyes of all people on us.

    Romney: I’ll also offer perspectives on how my own faith would inform my presidency, if I were elected.

    Comment: A lie. He said nothing specific at all about what his faith is; no details at all re: Mormonism much less how specifically it would govern him in office.

    Romney: Quoted John Adams’ words: “Our Constitution was made for a moral and religious people.”

    Comment: Adams meant Christians, all kinds of Christians. As John Jay wrote in Federalist Paper No. 2: “Providence has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people—a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs, and who, by their joint counsels, arms, and efforts, fighting side by side throughout a long and bloody war, have nobly established their general liberty and independence.” Neither Adams nor most of our Founders (in the 1776 period) would have considered Mormons as moral and religious people!

    Romney: Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom. Freedom opens the windows of the soul so that man can discover his most profound beliefs and commune with God. Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone.

    Comment: Important-sounding gibberish which – since the words “freedom” and “religion” are undefined – is meaningless. Reminds me of something called “amphigouri” — a verse composition which, while apparently coherent is actually without any meaning. An often cited example of “amphigouri” being English Victorian poet Algernon Swinburne’s self-parody of his own poetry, a poem titled “Nephelidia” the beginning of which is as follows: “From the depth of the dreamy decline of the dawn through a notable nimbus of nebulous noonshine, pallid and pink as the palm of the flag-flower that flickers with fear of the flies as they float.”

    Say whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?!

    Romney: I do not define my candidacy by my religion. A person should not be elected because of his faith nor should he be rejected because of his faith.

    Comment: Really?! Even if a person is a member of Anton LaVey’s “Church of Satan” which still exists, or Matthew Hale’s white supremacist anti-black “World Church of the Creator”?

    Romney: As a young man, Lincoln described what he called America’s “political religion” – the commitment to defend the rule of law and the Constitution.

    Comment: Lincoln was a murderous tyrant and to mention him in same breath with “the rule of law and the Constitution” is, well —- arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

    Romney: When I place my hand on the Bible and take the oath of office, that oath becomes my highest promise to God.

    Comment: Which God? Is the God of Mormonism the same God as the God of the Bible, the only true God there is? No.

    Romney: A president must serve only the common cause of the people of the United States.

    Comment: No such thing today.

    Romney: Refused to “disavow one or another of [the] precepts” of the Mormon religion saying: “That I will not do. I believe in my Mormon faith and I endeavor to live by it. My faith is the faith of my fathers. I will be true to them and to my beliefs.”

    Comment: This is a very useful quotes because it means Romney believes in all Mormon teaching.

    Romney: “There is one fundamental question about which I often am asked. What do I believe about Jesus Christ? I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God and the savior of mankind. My church’s beliefs about Christ may not all be the same as those of other faiths. Each religion has its own unique doctrines and history. These are not bases for criticism but rather a test of our tolerance.

    Comment: What Mormon teaching about Christ is “may not …be the same as those of other faiths,” eh? This is truly one of the great understatements of this or any other century. Despite what you have heard or read, Mormon teaching is that Jesus is the spiritual brother of Lucifer. Go to the LDS Web site and look it up. But, of course, Romney says such evil teaching is not to be criticized but rather seen as a test of our tolerance. Well, on this one, I flunk the tolerance test.

    Romney: There are some who would have a presidential candidate describe and explain his church’s distinctive doctrines. To do so would enable the very religious test the founders prohibited in the Constitution.

    Comment: Wrong! Ridiculous! The Constitution in no way restricts private individual voters from applying a religious test when they vote for civil government magistrates. Romney, obviously, knows no more about the Constitution than he does about Who Jesus is.

    Romney: I believe that every faith I have encountered draws its adherents closer to God.

    Comment: Appallingly asinine! And I believe for every drop of rain that falls, a flower grows. And that if God didn’t make little green apples then it don’t rain in Indianapolis in the summertime and there’s no such thing as Dr. Suess and Disneyland and Mother Goose and blah, blah, blah.

    Romney: We separate church and state affairs in this country, and for good reason. No religion should dictate to the state nor should the state interfere with the free practice of religion.

    Comment: Amen! I hate “religion”! But, what about God and State? God and government? Is it OK for God to “dictate” what must be the role of His-ordained civil government?

    Romney: The founders proscribed the establishment of a state religion….

    Comment: No, only by the Federal Government.

    Romney: Nor would I separate us from our religious heritage. Perhaps the most important question to ask a person of faith who seeks a political office, is this: Does he share these American values – the equality of human kind, the obligation to serve one another and a steadfast commitment to liberty?

    Comment: Us from our religious heritage, sir? Mormonism is no part of our founding religious heritage! Not at all. Reminds me of old Lone Ranger joke. LR, surrounded by Indians, says to Tonto: “We are surrounded by Indians; this may be the end.” Tonto: “What do you mean we, white man?” And there’s that hideously meaningless “person of faith” phraseology! It’s like saying “people with noses” which tell us nothing of any substance about a person.

    And no!, the most important question to ask a person who seeks public office is not: Does he share “American values” (words without meaning today.) The most important question an office-seeker can be asked is the one our Lord asks in Matthew 16:13-16. When some of His disciples tell Him some people were saying He was John the Baptist, or Jeremias or one of the prophets, our Lord said to these disciples: “But whom say ye that I am?” That’s the most important question that can be asked of anyone! Who do they say Jesus is? And when, in the context of our discussion today, Mitt Romney’s answer is – as it must be since he believes Mormon teaching – that Jesus is the spiritual brother of Lucifer, that is a very wrong answer that disqualifies him from holding any God-ordained civil government office.

    Romney: Speaks again of the “the great moral inheritance we hold in common” which he says is “the firm ground on which Americans of different faiths meet and stand as a nation, united.”

    Comment: This reminds me of the hymn verse: “On Christ the solid rock I stand; all other ground is sinking sand”! There is no firm ground upon which to stand other than the Lord Jesus Christ who is NOT the spiritual brother of Lucifer. To attempt to stand on “different faiths” is, indeed, an attempt to stand firm on quicksand.

    Romney: We believe that every single human being is a child of God – we’re all part of the human family.

    Comment: Human family, yes; all humans made in God’s image, yes; but all humans who reject Christ, who are not Christians, are children of the Devil, are antiChrists. Thus, saith the Lord, in His Word. See John 8:44ff, for example.

    Romney: The consequence of our common humanity is our responsibility to one another, to our fellow Americans foremost, but also to every child of God.

    Comment: An inanely idiotic assertion; absurd on its face. Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot all “humans.” So, what?! This made them “responsible” to —- what? Who?

    Romney: “our values, are the self-same as those from the other faiths…”

    Comment: Not true. Problem with “values” is they consist only of what individuals “value.” Concept is totally humanistic. We must believe what God “values.”!!

    Romney: Our nation’s forebears…came here from England to seek freedom of religion. But upon finding it for themselves, they at first denied it to others.

    Comment: This is true only if you believe, erroneously, that our original founders (1620 era) believed that “freedom of religion” meant the right of anybody to make up and worship the God of their choice, or not worship at all. Otherwise, like many other things Romney said in his speech, this remark is false.

    Romney: Ann Hutchinson was exiled from the Massachusetts Bay Colony.

    Comment: Well, yes. She was a heretic, “a woman not fit for our society,” as a court ruled when she was told to take-a-hike. She was told, in effect, at first, shut up! She did not, so she was told to leave the colony.

    Romney: (Alluding, in part, to the exile of Hutchinson)Americans were unable to accommodate their commitment to their own faith with an appreciation for the convictions of others to different faiths.

    Comment: So what?! If Bible-believing Christians found a colony, a country, and say, in effect, (Joshua 24:15), as for me and my house – my colony/country — we will serve the LORD, why should they “accommodate” themselves to those who say they will NOT serve the Lord?

    Romney: …For hundreds of millions of our countrymen: We do not insist on a single strain of religion – rather, we welcome our nation’s symphony of faith.

    Comment: Crapola cubed! Because God does insist on a single strain of religion – HIM! Read the First Commandment! A mixed multitude consisting of a true faith and false religions is NOT a symphony; it’s a cacophony of discordant sounds which is, alas, America today.

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  161. Fourpointer,
    “Lame” because who wants a line-by-line analysis of what a politician says? What is this, MSNBC? And non sequitur because, as any blogger knows, it is terribly discourteous to ignore the flow of the blog and refer back to the original posting. That was over one month ago!

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  162. Greetings Pilgrim or Four Pointer,

    May I ask either one of you a question or two? I believe at one-time that I did read about the Mormon’s jovial belief and barbaric doctrine concerning “The Blood Atonement.” Is this the doctrine the Mormons implemented in the 1800s to strong-arm reluctant souls, which after failing to get a person to participate, repent to their wills and to bow to their fun-loving beliefs, they felt that they had the moral right to use any means of violence deemed necessary? Routinely, wasn’t murder by hanging, shooting, knifing of men, women and children the ages of about 6 years old and above was their norm? If this is it, I did indeed read it and was stunned by their cruelty….

    Thanks

    LumpyMeatLoaf

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  163. Lumpy,

    Pilgrim put up a lengthy post about Blood Atonement a while back (filled with quotes from early Mormon leaders). It is the reason Utah is the only state in the union that still allows criminals to be executed by firing squad (so they can spill their blood).

    You can probably find the post by typing “blood atonement” in the search box.

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  164. Greetings fourpointer,

    Thanks, I will see if I can run it down. They had and have so many warm-hearted programs and names in their stables that it is hard to remember them all and tell one player from the next without a program…….I will type in and see what I find….

    Thanks

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  165. I have a hard time believeing that true Christians would attack others so ruthlessly, I can’t picture Christ doing it. He taught to always love one another. In Matthew 25:40, it says, ” Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” I’ve attended some Mormon services and I have never heard any of them say anything negative of any other religion. And still, they get attacked by these so called “Christians.” If you want to bring them to God, you need to love them and befriend them, not attack them. Let’s all try to be a little more Christlike.

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  166. Greetings Gemini,

    Why are you amazed about the truth being told? The Bible is clear concerning disobedience even in the ranks of the brethren! Let us reason together?

    You said, “I have a hard time believing that true Christians would attack others so ruthlessly, I can’t picture Christ doing it.” I am enclosing just two scriptures whereas St. Paul used actions in which you evidently would not have approved. Perhaps, he too was not Christ-like or not a true Christian?

    First, 1Timothy 18-20, which I have enclosed word for word, “18. Now, Timothy, my son, here is my command to you: Fight well in the Lord’s battles, just as the Lord told us through his prophets that you would. 19. Cling tightly to your faith in Christ and always keep your conscience clear, doing what you know is right. For some people have disobeyed their consciences and have deliberately done what they knew was wrong. It isn’t surprising that soon they lost their faith in Christ after defying God like that. 20. Hymenaeus and Alexander are two examples of this. I had to give them over to Satan to punish them until they could learn not to bring shame to the name of Christ. They were Christians!

    Second scripture is 1Corinthians 5:1-5, 1. Everyone is talking about the terrible thing that has happened there among you, something so evil that even the heathen don’t do it: you have a man in your church who is living in sin with his father’s wife.
    2. And are you still so conceited, so “spiritual”? Why aren’t you mourning in sorrow and shame, and seeing to it that this man is removed from your membership?
    3. Although I am not there with you, I have been thinking a lot about this, and in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ I have already decided what to do, just as though I were there. You are to call a meeting of the church–and the power of the Lord Jesus will be with you as you meet, and I will be there in spirit–
    5. and cast out this man from the fellowship of the church and into Satan’s hands, to punish him, in the hope that his soul will be saved when our Lord Jesus Christ returns. He too was a Christian!

    As you can see, Apostle Paul took care of God’s business; above is God’s Word, so if you don’t like it then you talk to him.

    Have a good week and read your Bible.

    Jesus is Lord
    Jeff

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  167. Dear Gemini:

    Thank you for your comment. As far as you never hearing Mormons say anything negative about other religions, I would like to direct your attention toward the teachings of leaders of the LDS church on Christianity for your consideration in this matter.

    Dear Meatloaf,
    And thank you Meatloaf for your comment as well. Too often people have a false idea of how Jesus and the Apostles dealt with the false teachers of their day. They had NO TOLERANCE for it. If Jesus and the disciples confronted today’s ultra-tolerant, gushy love, post-modern, gospel of inclusiveness they would receive the same brunt of anger by those on here who cannot stand to have false teachings exposed. It is a true testament to today’s rampant biblical illiteracy, lack of discernment, and overall apathy to defend and contend for the faith that was delivered to the saints.

    Never compromise!

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  168. Gemini,

    The reason we try so hard to show the truth to Mormons is because they are lost. Are they nice people? Yes. Do they love their families? Yes. Are they the kind of people you would want to hire for your business? Yes. You will never hear any of us say that we “hate” Mormons. In fact, it is because we want Mormons to come to know the truth that we try and open their eyes to the fact that they follow a false gospel.

    That said, listen to these words:

    1st Peter 3:15–“always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear.”
    Jude 3–“contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.”
    2nd John 1:9-11–“Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.”

    We are commanded to hold fast to the word of truth, contend for it, defend it, remove anyone who is unrepentant (Matthew 18:15-20) and not allow into the assembly of believers anyone who does not hold to the truth–all the while praying for them and showing them the truth.

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  169. In my own personal opinion I think its rather sad to see someone that claims to be a good christian attack another christian faith. Why do you do so? And please dont say cause you want to inform or further the knowledge of people. You know I have always been directed to be generous and inviting to those of other faiths and never put down or tongue lash them, and this counsel has come from old and new prophets alike. I know you want to hear debating and things in that nature but i just seem to think it is sad to see someone bash another religion. I have my faults as many others but seriously why the mormons. Did they offend you or something? What did we ever do to you?

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  170. Sir,

    Personal opinions, are just like throwing horseshoes, which they don’t, count even if close! Apostle Peter instructed us to follow a “More Sure Word” not opinions, emotions or an unsure word; 2 Peter 1:19 (read the entire chapter if you get a chance). Scott also, Saint Paul an Apostle of Christ Jesus actually turned or instructed other Christians (teachers) to be turned over to Satan, which blasphemed, and that is slightly harsher than a rebuke; 1 Timothy 1-18-20, “Now, Timothy, my son, here is my command to you: Fight well in the Lord’s battles, just as the Lord told us through his prophets that you would. Cling tightly to your faith in Christ and always keep your conscience clear, doing what you know is right. For some people have disobeyed their consciences and have deliberately done what they knew was wrong. It isn’t surprising that soon they lost their faith in Christ after defying God like that. Hymenaeus and Alexander are two examples of this. I had to give them over to Satan to punish them until they could learn not to bring shame to the name of Christ.”

    By the way, if interested and If you like more than personal opinion then you might want to read 1 Corinthian 5th chapter in the entirety, for your pleasure? This is not my opinion or yours just God’s through an Apostle, which was given the power through the Holy Spirit to raise the dead, to cast out demons, and to shake off serpents! If somehow you fail to agree, then talk to God; perhaps he would be glad to edit the Word for your pleasure? If not?

    Doctrine is a divider! It divides the wheat from the chaff, always has always will.

    Jesus is Lord

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  171. Pilgrim or FourPointer,

    Greetings, maybe it is me? People for some strange reason just can’t grasp that Jesus and the Apostles corrected false prophets and crooked prophesy! Over and over, we go over the same scriptures not our opinions, which we provide them the book, chapter and verse. I know that Arminian views of Pelagiusism along with the stance and resemblances of Charles Finney are sadly mistaken, but can the entire world really be this thick?

    I primarily like the KJV but I have thirteen other Bibles, which say pretty much the same basic 10 things:

    1.Jesus is Lord and creator.
    2.Man is depraved.
    3.They were drawn to him by the Holy Spirit.
    4.Jesus died for his elect.
    5.Jesus was resurrected.
    6.Jesus sits on the right-side of the Father and will collect his elect.
    7.Believe and be Baptized and be saved (go to heaven).
    8.Believe not (or any other way or adding to the word) and go to hell.
    9.Dead in Christ will rise first.
    10.All others; elect then will receive a new glorify body, except the hell bound.

    Why are so many people failing to understand the Word? On several occasions, I had (mainly so-called) Christian and seculars to get mad, mutter and/or physically cry when I show them scripture. It upsets them when their hocus-pocus fails to produce fruit in their lives. Guys, I really believe that Matthew chapter 7, concerning that most will not make the narrow way and the narrow path which they think that they are save; this applies today more than yesterday!

    Keep fighting

    Jesus is Lord

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  172. From Acts chapter 2:

    36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
    37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

    Just who did Peter think he was, talking to these men in this way? Didn’t he realize he should have taken a kinder approach? Who did he think he was to criticize and put down the religion these men held so dear? And telling them that they were the ones who crucified Christ! Why, he should have been more generous and inviting to those of other faiths. I mean, Peter’s words broke these guys’ hearts! Shame on him! I wonder: What Would Jesus Do?

    Oh, and Scott, Revelation was written about 90-95 AD. And “Bible” comes from the Latin biblia, meaning “book.”

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  173. Scott,
    Let me count the ways. Evidently, you are a young, absolutely devoted Mormon whose eyes see no wrong, whose ears see no evil, and lips say nothing. Turn your head and the world is perfect. You are so far from the gospel of Jesus Christ, it isn’t even a question. What did you ever do to me? how about Lies, lies, and more lies. You really don’t see them, do you? A whole Mormon world living out the life and testimony of Joseph Smith. All praise to the Man. Count sometime, just for fun in one of your meetings how many times Joseph Smith’s name is said. Then count how many times they mention Jesus, other than the name you call your church, Mormon. Tell me then what you have done to me, or better yet what you have done to my Jesus.

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  174. Laura,

    May I accept your challenge and report the number of times Jesus is mentioned relative to Joseph Smith in my next sacrament meeting? I’ll return and report the results. I think you will be disappointed.

    Fourpointer,

    “Biblia” means collection of books or works, and if you are making the argument that the concept of a Bible including the New Testament existed at the time Revelation was written and that John was simply putting the final chapter together, you have a very difficult task ahead of you, because the history does not support that conclusion. The first to describe an actual canon was Marcion (110-160 A.D.) Various subsequent canons included different books and in different order, with Revelation not necessarily the last. Revelation was even excluded from many canons because of its perceived montanist undertones. Furthermore, there is substantial evidence that it was not the last book written chronologically.

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  175. Greetings to all.

    Fourpointer, It is early but, upon checking on biblia, I found that it means bible.. “Biblia” from two unbias sources, which looks like bible is the clear winner. I couldn’t find a collection of books synonymous; as referred to by TuthSerum.

    Roget’s New Millennium™ Thesaurus – Cite This Source – Share This
    Main Entry: bible
    Part of Speech: noun
    Definition: book
    Synonyms: Book, Holy Scriptures, Holy Writ, authority, creed, doctrine, god’s word, guide, guidebook, handbook, manual, sacred writ, sacred writings, scripture, testament, text, the Word
    Source: Roget’s New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.3.1)

    bib•li•cal also Bib•li•cal (bbl-kl)
    adj.
    1. Of, relating to, or contained in the Bible.
    2. Being in keeping with the nature of the Bible, especially:
    a. Suggestive of the personages or times depicted in the Bible.
    b. Suggestive of the prose or narrative style of the King James Bible.
    3. Very great in extent; enormous: a natural disaster of near biblical proportions.
    [From Medieval Latin biblicus, from Late Latin biblia, Bible; see Bible.]

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  176. By the way, I forgot to mumble this, however if we look real close in the Roget’s New Millennium™ Thesaurus – Cite the overall definition is book. Give Mr. Fourpointer a cigar (just kidding)… This Source – Share This
    Main Entry: bible
    Part of Speech: noun
    Definition: book

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  177. Lumpy,

    True. Merriam-Webster Online says,

    Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Medieval Latin biblia, from Greek, plural of biblion book, diminutive of byblos papyrus, book, from Byblos, ancient Phoenician city from which papyrus was exported
    Date: 14th century
    1) Capitalized a: the sacred scriptures of Christians comprising the Old Testament and the New Testament b: the sacred scriptures of some other religion (as Judaism)

    So, the word “Bible” is actually a “plural singular.” It denotes one thing made up of many.

    —————

    TruthSerum,

    I’m not sure what you’re getting at in your last comment about when the Bible was put together. Although from your comment, an interesting question arises: If the word “Bible” (or biblion or byblos) did not exist at such a late date, how did the word find its way into the Book of Mormon?

    2nd Nephi 29:10-11–“Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.”

    (I won’t even begin to pick apart the horrendously butchered grammar in this verse)

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  178. Greetings Fourpointer,

    I wasn’t real sure where TruthSerum was going, with the book question? I realize the Holy Bible is made up of many separate books (66) from Genesis to Revelation. However, when TruthSerum said, “Biblia” means collection of books or works” I thought perhaps, he was trying to include the BOM, as an addition of the Word or a set?

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  179. Lumpy and Fourpointer:

    This is a very funny conversation. You can refer to “The Bible” as “a book”, because in modern times, it is printed in one volume, but it consists of many books added over time. As Fourpointer correctly points out, the word “bible” comes from the word “biblia”, which Fourpoiner’s post from March 5 4:57 am clearly shows, is the plural form of the word “biblion” (book).

    Fourpointer:

    You need to re-read my post. I never said the word “bible” did not exist . The Hebrew Bible was well-known long before Christ. I said that the concept of a bible that includes a New Testament had not even been conceived of at the time Revelation was written, making the argument that Revelation 22:18 somehow places Mormonism under condemnation for adding to the Bible silly, because the verse clearly refers to the Book of Revelation, just like verse 7, and Revelation reads the same in my Bible as it does in yours.

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  180. Fourpointer says:

    “So, the word ‘Bible’ is actually a ‘plural singular.’ It denotes one thing made up of many.”

    In other words, a collection of books or works. Does that clarify things, Lumpy?

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  181. Oh yes, I was already clear concerning the Holy Bible and the number (66 canonized) of books, which it contains. Thank you for asking, however, are you saying that the BOM is an additional work(s) that are to be included? In addition, if you believe the BOM is an authorized book of additional work(s) then could you clarify when was it canonized? Also, please include by what authority and why is it not included in the Greek text, just for my entertainment?

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  182. Well, Lumpy, you seemed to be arguing that “biblia” did not mean what I said it did, but we’ll let that pass. Regarding your last post, I said none of those things, so I’m not sure what I’m supposed to be responding to.

    You raise the issue of canonical authority. Just for my entertainment, perhaps you can explain to me the “authority” by which it was determined that there are only 66 books in Protestant canon vs. the “authority” by which it was determined that there are 81 books in the canon (Ethiopian Orthodox) vs. the “authority” by which it was determined that there are only 22 books in the New Testament (Syrian canon) vs. the “authority” by which it was determined that 12 books of the Apocrypha are canonical in the Catholic Old Testament but not in the Protestant canon. Who exactly has the authority?

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  183. Greetings TruthSermon,

    Let us try this again, please. You are correct that additions were in the original Bible such as the Apocrypha. It was a part of the KJV until they were removed by the Synod of Dordrecht held in Holland, 1618. The King of England authorized the translation of the version using the work of 54 scholars. It was completed in 1611 and is know as the KING JAMES VERSION after the monarch who authorized it.

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  184. Serum,

    The reason there are many different “canons” is because many different sects include what they want to include, whether the work is inspired or not. For example, the Gnostics held to such abominations as the “gospels” of Mary, Peter, and Thomas (None of which, by the way, were penned by the Peter, Thomas, or Mary of the Bible). Some included the “Epistle of Barnabas” which was probably not written by the Barnabas spoken of in Acts, but was a 4th century invention. And yes, the Catholics love their Apocrypha because it talks of Purgatory and other such things.

    Why are certain books included in Protestant Bibles and not Catholic ones? Why can we look at the Gnostic “gospels” and say they’re a bunch of B-O-L-O-G-N-A? Consider a court trial. The prosecution has 10 witnesses they can call. The first 8 witnesses all swear to the fact that they saw the defendant drive away in a blue Chevrolet. It is known that the defendant owns a blue Chevrolet. However, witnesses #9 and #10 say they saw the defendant ride away on a purple ostrich.

    Now, even though these last two witnesses may also include some actual facts of the case in their testimony, the prosecution will probably not call them because they lack credibility due to their belief in the purple ostrich. Likewise, the Gnostic “gospels” are discarded because of such nonsense as Jesus saying He would turn women into men, and one that told of a talking cross walking out of a tomb. The Catholic Apocryphal books are discounted because they contain many things that contradict the rest of the Scriptures (as do verses in the “Epistle of Barnabas” and “Epistle of Clement”).

    The Torah is commonly referred to as “the Book of the Law” even though it contains 5 “books.” The word “Tanakh” is singular, even though it contains 39 “books.” In fact, Muslims refer to Jews and Christians as “People of the Book” Besides, I don’t think I ever said anything about Revelation 22:18-19 applying to Mormonism. Although Proverbs 30:5-6 certainly would–“Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.” Now, one may try to make an argument that the gospel writers and Paul “added” to God’s word. However, these men were moved by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, is was not they who added to Scripture, it was God who added. Joseph Smith, on the other hand, did try and add to God’s word by writing his “Book of Mormon.”

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  185. Lumpy,

    So the King of England and his 54 scholars represents the authority on what should be categorized as God’s Word. Thanks for the clarification on your position.

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  186. Greetings TruthSerum,

    I believe the KJV is the authorized word of God as outlined and written by holy men inspired by the Holy Spirit. What else do you want me to say? I don’t believe in hocus-pocus, presto-chango or using a “Rock in a Hat” to receive revelation knowledge, or other works that disputes the authorized word of God. The Gnostic writings, Apocrypha, to include Books of Thomas, Adam and Even, Egyptian Book of the Dead, Book of Bugs Bunny, The Three Stooges or any works, which are pseudo and unworthy of my time. Again, I ask you what gives BOM credence? Tell me why should I or any other should follow the BOM? Tell me what you believe in?

    By the way, over the years LDS in their television advertisements depicted the KJV in the ads promoting LDS and God’s word…hhhhmmmmmm, maybe things have changed… My position is this cultist, followers of another Jesus, followers of another Gospel or Holy Spirit will need to repent or judgment will fall on them like rain.

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  187. Fourpointer,

    Your court trial analogy is an interesting one. What if witnesses 1-8 said they saw the victim die and witnesses 9 and 10 said they saw him die, come back to life, have a fish dinner and then ascend to heaven. Based on your logic, neither the defense nor the prosecution would call witnesses 9 and 10 because they lack credibility.

    It is always interesting to me how folks who label other people’s beliefs B-O-L-O-G-N-A ridicule the miraculous in others’ beliefs and ignore the miraculous in their own beliefs. After all, it ultimately comes down to faith, and often that requires one to believe in miraculous events.

    And we are not talking about the inclusion of the Gnostic gospels, which appear in none of the canons I referred to. The simple fact is you cannot point to an authority who can say what is or is not canonical. The matter is and always has been decided by councils of men, such as the good King and his 54 scholars, in whom Lumpy places so much faith. Other reputable church fathers and theologians disagreed with the King. The Epistle of Barnabas, 1st and 2nd Epistles of Clement, the Shepherd of Hermas and other early Christian works did in fact appear in many canons for centuries and were regarded as authoritative scripture by important early Christian fathres, such as Iranaeus.

    Incidentally, the “nonsense” about changing women to men in the Gospel of Thomas does not mean literally changing the sex of the individual. You should do a little research on that one.

    Also, the Epistle of Barnabas was not a 4th century invention. It is generally believed to have been written between 70 and 135 AD and appears in several canons prior to the 4th century.

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  188. Whooaaaa Truthsermon,

    Bud, don’t put words in my mouth! I don’t put “Faith” into anyone or anything outside of ChristJesus and what he authorizes!!!!! I told you who authorized the KJV to be constructed and that is true.

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  189. TruthSermon,

    You said, “It is always interesting to me how folks who label other people’s beliefs B-O-L-O-G-N-A ridicule the miraculous in others’ beliefs and ignore the miraculous in their own beliefs. After all, it ultimately comes down to faith, and often that requires one to believe in miraculous events.” You know friend a Satanist could say the same thing!

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  190. Lumpy,

    A Satanist could say the same thing, but that does not make my statement any less true. If a Satanist said the sun rises in the east, would you look for it to rise in the west?

    You can get worked up and indignant all you want, but when it comes to canonicity, the fact is you are placing faith in many councils of men to determine what is and is not canonical. You may believe that they were all inspired and that doctrinal, sectarian and other biases played no role in their decisions, but that is a leap of faith you cannot prove. That’s not an insult. It’s just the way it is.

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  191. Greetings TuthSerom,

    Well, I not aggravated, but I am concern on who or what I talking to. I had a dear Mormon friend that attended church with me. My friend was a survivor on the USS Oklahoma that was sunk at Pearl Harbor, and needless to say he attended a Baptist Church on occasion, whereas he never questioned the authority of God or the Word. We also never question each others beliefs. Using him as a measuring stick, I am not sure you’re even a Mormon. You have refused to answer or to make a statement of faith, in the thing or things in which you believe in. Are you ashamed?

    You imagination is running wild, what I stated earlier is fact. However, I do agree with you, whereas any fool can put stock into anything; PT Barnum stated it best. Anybody can believe in anything they wish, I care less. The way I see it hell isn’t half full. But without telling anything about yourself again, you will probably come back saying, “You said hell isn’t half full, whereas in reality hell is really half empty.” You make me laugh. Using never-ending circular logic you must be a tongue talking Pentecostal?

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  192. Serum,

    Re: Barnabas, I was mistaken about its writing date. It is believed to have been written sometime between 100-150 AD.

    We could argue back and forth for the next month about whether this book or that book should be included. What it will come down to is which books do we want included. That said, we must look at why either side would include certain books.

    In short, if someone wrote something that contradicted what was already given in Scripture, that work was excluded. Also, works by early Christians who were not apostles, associates of apostles, or eyewitnesses to the risen Christ are not considered to be inspired. Thus, while they may contain some truth, they are omitted from most canons (e.g. Barnabas, Clement, Hermas, etc.)

    You wondered about if witnesses #9 and #10 “saw him die, come back to life…” Problem with that argument is that the remaining 11 people saw Him “come back to life,” as did 500 other eyewitnesses (1st Corinthians 15:4-6), and the apostle Paul. Many people saw the miracles Jesus performed as He walked among them. However, no one else was there with Joseph Smith when he (supposedly) saw God the Father and Jesus.

    And as far as “females becoming males,”: Perhaps you know more about Gnostic Theology than I do and you can enlighten me on the subject.

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  193. Lumpy,

    Wow, I’ve never been accused of being a Pentacostal before. that’s a new one.

    Please show me a single instance where I have used circular logic. And if I have misstated the facts regarding the way in which the canon was formed (you raised the issue of canonicity, by the way–March 5 at 9:41 am), please show me where I am in error.

    You say you had an LDS friend and you never questioned his beliefs. I do not find that statement credible in light of your previous comments on this thread. You have even resorted to calling me a “cultist”. That is a very common and predictable tactic.

    For the record, I am LDS. I have not hidden that fact. I accept the Bible to be the word of God, but I understand how it came to be in its present form. I do not subscribe to the belief that God only inspired 66 books and that there can be no more or no less. None of this takes away from the beauty of the central message of the Bible.

    My point in talking about these things is not to attack the Bible, but rather to demonstrate the contradictions and inconsistency in the logic you and others on this site use to attack other faiths. You brought up the “authority” to establish canon to attack the BOM and it blew up in your face.

    Fourpointer,

    I apprecaite your willingness to admit your mistake on Barnabas and your more reasonable stand on how canons are formed, although I could challenge you on the authorship of several New Testament books, including Hebrews (see what Martin Luther had to say about it), Revelation, Jude, 1st & 2nd Peter and 2nd and 3rd John. You would have a very difficult time showing who wrote them, and there’s considerable evidence it’s not who you think. Nonetheless, they are considered to be inspired. I am not rejecting these books or their message, only the standard of canonicity you claim as the determining factor.

    Regarding my use of your court trial analogy, I was not attacking or questioning the resurrection of Christ, which I believe, only your logic, which was flawed and would argue against the credibility of anyone who claimed belief in miraculous events, because Christianity requires belief in many miraculous events. Also, my analogy is sound, because the Romans and non-disciple Jews most certainly did not see him in his resurrected form. He only appeared to his disciples. Critics of Christianity in the first century used YOUR logic to show that Christians were making the whole thing up and were a bunch of deluded, subversive fanatics and a threat to the empire.

    And for the record, no witnesses were present when Moses received the 10 commandments from God either, so you must believe it never happened.

    Females becoming males refers to attaining a state of sacred enlightenment and knowledge.

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  194. Basically, we can argue back and forth, why waste time? You are surely not going to change my beliefs and I will not change yours. My elderly Mormon friend was dying in a nursing-home, where my late mother resided. His family deserted him, so I didn’t try to beat him up, he had enough woes. Upon asking my now late Baptist father-in-law if Frank could join us for Christmas meal and also being a WW2 veteran himself, he surely was welcomed. Besides, since he was going to a Baptist church at times, and preaching periodically at a Hispanic Baptist Church, I figured God has his hand upon him. How many Mormons attend a Baptist Church at times and preach in Spanish? Do you know any? It is credible see his church forgot him too!

    Since, you sir called me a liar by doubting my credibility concerning my WW2 veteran friend that happened to be Mormon, our conversation ends now! Since the gloves are off, I will close with a list of facts, which I obtained from someone else and that I added to. I will not lower myself to argue with you any longer. You are right, I did call you a cultist, which you are, along with your confused and perfidious mind. However, I never stooped to call you a liar, I leave that to God. Today, just like yesterday. I will say this in my beliefs that any person, group, gangs or club that adds to God’s word will face judgment. You have a problem with God’s word talk to him. Sir, unlike you I have a life. I also have assurance in the everlasting life provided by Christ Jesus. My Jesus is not a created being, or the brother of Satan but he came as God in flesh! He is the creator of all things seen and all things not seen. Also, you need to worry about your own Mormon clan, I am listing some quirks within you own ranks that perhaps you should be working on, instead of wasting time arguing with me. Allow me to list some “fruits” or “good works” that Mormonism has “blessed” us with:
    • The doctrine of Blood Atonement.
    * The Mountain Meadows Massacre.
    * The doctrine of polygamy.
    * The countless women who suffered from polygamy.
    * Joseph Smith’s multiple marriages (including one to a 14 year old girl).
    * Mormonism’s racial prejudice toward the African race (until 1978) teaching that blacks are cursed.
    * Joseph Smith’s false prophecies.
    * The Adam-God doctrine.
    * The false doctrine that God was once a man.
    * The false doctrine that we can become gods.
    * The false doctrine that Jesus was conceived by sexual relations between God the Father and His own daughter Mary.
    * The false doctrine that Jesus is not eternal, but a created being.
    * The false doctrine that Christ’s sacrifice was insufficient to cleanse all sins (the root of Blood Atonement).

    Other false areas of Mormonism:
    • Jesus was the brother of Satan.
    • Divination; used by Joseph Smith, which he gained spiritual knowledge from his hat with a rock in it.
    • Using, promoting another gospel.

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  195. Lumpy,

    You obviously suffer from the delusion that 2000 years of Christian history is squeaky clean, or you would never set yourself up like you just did. It’s tempting to respond with my own list, but since you want to exit the conversation, I’ll resist the temptation. Thanks for your comments.

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  196. Truth Serum,

    I have to respond to your last two comments. You are like eating potato chips, one just can’t stop.

    What can be added to and removed from the Holy Bible is only your perception! You can say that it blew up in my face when I said that the Holy Bible consist of 66 books that were inspired by godly men and directed through the Holy Spirit, if that makes you feel good. Let me give you the same measure; prove that they aren’t! Also, I never mention that other works weren’t from God, you did! Again, you only presumed that. However, I will concede that your perception was correct, even though I didn’t say anything whatsoever. Regardless, I can pretty much conclude that your whole goal is to argue and try to make petty points that will boost the notion that your BOM consist of additional inspired works; what other reason would you be on a Protestant Blog?

    In truth, most of the other books were indeed disapproved and scratch through the process of elimination because they were spurious, and you know it. By your lame attempt to discredit the scriptures and by making accusations that some books were removed for grins and giggles is pure baloney and your speculation. Your suggestiveness seems to discredit and depict the church councils as uninspired, and incompetent, whereas, you can therefore slip in the additional works; perhaps such as the BOM. What else is there to think? I have asked you to prove it over and over, but you can’t. Just like the Gnostic Books, the Koran, the Apocrypha, the BOM does make for entertainment. By your thoughts, logic and perceptions when applied one could perceive the Koran as being an additional work and therefore must be the “Word of God”? Therefore it too must be a sister religion, which is along the lines and precepts that the LDS use; with the additional works that came later from an angel? And you say that I am delusional? Have you ever looked at the Mormon faith real close? By the way friend, I never ever said that mistakes didn’t happen and that Christian history was perfect. Again, you are adding words into other’s mouths. Your profession by trade must be “ventriloquism”!

    I would like your list of Christian fallacies, which you said you had.

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  197. Lumpy,

    You declared the conversation over in one of several apoplectic fits you’ve had on this thread, and now you are back spewing more incoherent accusations, inventing quotes and asking me to defend positions I did not take. None of your conclusions follow from the arguments I have made. You seem to be having difficulty following the conversation. Please re-read my previous posts and respond to what I actually said.

    And if you want to carry on the conversation, I will refer you to my previous post where I responded to your accusation that I was using circular logic. Please show me a single instance of circular logic in my posts. And if there are factual errors, in what I have stated in any of my posts, please show me with specifics where I’m in error, and I will respond accordingly. Thank you.

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  198. While I’m waiting for you to point out my circular logic, I wanted to respond in detail to your last post.

    “I have to respond to your last two comments. You are like eating potato chips, one just can’t stop.”

    I can’t begin to describe how uncomfortable this analogy makes me feel.

    “What can be added to and removed from the Holy Bible is only your perception!”

    What are you saying? Please clarify. It sounds like you have just appointed me the “authority” on determining canon, but I don’t think that’s what you meant, since you have already clarified that it was the King of England.

    “You can say that it blew up in my face when I said that the Holy Bible consist of 66 books that were inspired by godly men and directed through the Holy Spirit, if that makes you feel good.”

    No, I said you raised the issue of the authority to determine what is and is not canonical and THAT blew up in your face. I never said the 66 books in the Protestant canon were not inspired scripture, so no, it wouldn’t make me feel good to say something I don’t believe and would never say.

    “Let me give you the same measure; prove that they aren’t!”

    Prove that WHAT aren’t WHAT? It appears that you are asking me to prove a negative (although I can’t decipher which negative you want me to prove), but asking someone to prove a negative is, by definition, a logical fallacy. The onus is on the affirmative argument.

    “Also, I never mention that other works weren’t from God, you did!”

    So are you conceding that there are other works from God? If they are from God, then why aren’t they regarded as scripture?

    “Again, you only presumed that. However, I will concede that your perception was correct, even though I didn’t say anything whatsoever.”

    I have no idea what you are saying here.

    “Regardless, I can pretty much conclude that your whole goal is to argue and try to make petty points that will boost the notion that your BOM consist of additional inspired works;”

    No, my point, as I have already stated, is to challenge the notion that there are only 66 books that can be considered inspired works, no more and no less, and that anyone who believes otherwise is under condemnation.

    “what other reason would you be on a Protestant Blog?”

    Please scroll to the top of the page and read what this blog is about. I think you can answer your own question.

    “In truth, most of the other books were indeed disapproved and scratch through the process of elimination because they were spurious, and you know it.”

    Please tell me what you think constitutes a spurious work and then I will respond to your statement.

    “By your lame attempt to discredit the scriptures and by making accusations that some books were removed for grins and giggles is pure baloney and your speculation.”

    Two false accusations. I am neither trying to discredit the scriptures nor am I making the argument that books were removed for “grins and giggles”. I have simply stated some facts which you can verify for yourself. If I have misstated any facts, please show me where I am in error with specifics. The only baloney I see is in what you are accusing me of saying. I am attacking the logic of some of the posts on this board, not the scriptures.

    “Your suggestiveness seems to discredit and depict the church councils as uninspired, and incompetent, whereas, you can therefore slip in the additional works; perhaps such as the BOM. What else is there to think?”

    Were they, or were they not, councils of men? If you believe they were all inspired, then you are placing faith in the correctness of those councils of men, which is what I said to you before and you took great offense. Do you believe the Council of Trent was inspired? Do you accept the filioque?

    “I have asked you to prove it over and over, but you can’t.”

    Prove WHAT specifically? Which IT are you asking me to prove? I need some nouns here.

    “Just like the Gnostic Books, the Koran, the Apocrypha, the BOM does make for entertainment.”

    I’m delighted you find these books entertaining, although I doubt you have actually read any of them.

    “By your thoughts, logic and perceptions when applied one could perceive the Koran as being an additional work and therefore must be the ‘Word of God’. Therefore it too must be a sister religion?”

    Please provide me with a logical proof from my arguments that shows how anything I have said indicates that the Koran must be the “Word of God”.

    “which is along the lines and precepts that the LDS use; with the additional works that came later from an angel? And you say that I am delusional?”

    So I take it you don’t believe angels can deliver messages to men, since believing in that would make one delusional, correct?

    “Have you ever looked at the Mormon faith real close?”

    Why no. What is this Mormon faith of which you speak? What kind of silly question is this?

    “By the way friend, I never ever said that mistakes didn’t happen and that Christian history was perfect.”

    Well, you want to condemn Mormonism for things like the Mountain Meadows Massacre and racial prejudice, so you need to own up to your own history. Ignoring Catholic history for the moment, perhaps you can explain to me how and why the Southern Baptist Convention came into being? What did Martin Luther have to say about Jews? How about the KKK and the Protestant Inquisition? Please, this is a classic case of not perceiving the beam in your own eye.

    “Again, you are adding words into other’s mouths. Your profession by trade must be “ventriloquism”!

    No, actually, I’m in software. Do you also guess a person’s age and weight? What’s the prize if you guess wrong?

    There. I have responded to everything you said in your post. Now please extend the same courtesy to me and respond to my questions to you. Thank you.

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  199. Serum,

    About your argument that since “no witnesses were present when Moses received the 10 Commandments”:

    1) Jesus attested to them on more than one occasion. So are you calling Jesus a liar?
    2) All the people saw the LORD descend on Sinai for all those days while God gave the Law to Moses.
    3) In that Law, God commanded that the high priest wear the “Urim and Thummim.” If that never happened, then how did Joseph Smith “translate” the BOM?
    4) Paul spends almost the whole of Galatians speaking of “the Law” and “Sinai.” Must be that imaginary Law that Moses didn’t receive.
    5) We don’t have 6 or 7 different versions of how Moses got the Law. On the other hand, we do have about 6 or 7 different (and often contradictory) versions of Joseph’s “first vision,” that “vision” upon which, as Gordon Hinckley said, the whole of Mormonism rests.

    While works like Barnabas, Clement, Hermas, etc, may have some value to them, and can add to our understanding of the Scriptures, that does not necessarily mean they were inspired. In order to be considered “inspired,” there must be no contradictions to (a) what God has previously said, or (b) historical events. For example, Barnabas 16:3-4 says that “…they who destroyed this temple shall themselves [re]build it….” However, the Romans did not rebuild it. In fact, the Temple has never been rebuilt. Now, this may have been a nice sentiment and wishful thinking, this was obviously not a word from God.

    The Book of Hebrews, on the other hand, was quoted in the Didache as well as works by Polycarp and Ignatius. Also, it was often bound up with Paul’s letters, leading to the belief that Paul was the author.

    Re: Gnosticism and your comment that “Females becoming males refers to attaining a state of sacred enlightenment and knowledge.” Wow, now that is a stretch. One has to be pretty limber to do those mental gymnastics.

    So, one final question: what are your views on the Community of Christ (RLDS)?

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  200. TuthSermon,

    Calm down before you fall out or snap your spline.

    Allow me to give you an example of your circular logic; as I said, “I believe the KJV is the authorized word of God as outlined and written by holy men inspired by the Holy Spirit. What else do you want me to say? I don’t believe in hocus-pocus, presto-chango or using a “Rock in a Hat” to receive revelation knowledge, or other works that disputes the authorized word of God. The Gnostic writings, Apocrypha, to include Books of Thomas, Adam and Even, Egyptian Book of the Dead, Book of Bugs Bunny, The Three Stooges or any works, which are pseudo and unworthy of my time.” Upon depicting this you said in reply, “You can get worked up and indignant all you want, but when it comes to canonicity, the fact is you are placing faith in many councils of men to determine what is and is not canonical. You may believe that they were all inspired and that doctrinal, sectarian and other biases played no role in their decisions, but that are a leap of faith you cannot prove.” Then as your hypocrisy blossoms in full bloom, you said, “I do not subscribe to the belief that God only inspired 66 books and that there can be no more or no less. None of this takes away from the beauty of the central message of the Bible. How can you subscribe to the Bible and the beauty while not accepting the Holy Bible in fullness? You are wanting your cake and eat it too. Either the Holy Bible is the Word of God and canonized or it isn’t. So you believe in a Bible that you said. “You may believe that they were all inspired and that doctrinal, sectarian and other biases played no role in their decisions, but that are a leap of faith you cannot prove.” Guy you must be hallucinating?

    I used the potato chip allegorically to suggestion and indicate that your babbling is memorizing…. So please don’t try to suggest any thing else, which could make you uncomfortable. Remember people with little suspicious filthy minds also have filthy hearts.

    Yes, indeed I believe that angels can bring a word to people, “Yeah Satan.” I believe St. Paul described in Galatians 1:8-9. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    Don’t play silly…. The LDS claims that an angel (Macaroni) brings an additional script to your fearless leader. You mean to tell me that this doesn’t sound somewhat similar to the Muslim belief? I honestly don’t see the difference both groups claim that an angel provided additional, questionable scripture.

    I really mean this all with my heart, which I have absolutely decided to drop any further conversation. You can say anything negative but at this point this has become fruitless. I think that Jesus would not want this. I regret sending you the last comment; it seemed to upset you so. By the way, years ago I read BOM, the Apocrypha and the Koran, for what it is worth, not much.

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  201. Lumpy,

    You haven’t upset me at all. I’m enjoying our conversation. You don’t see me repeatedly ending the conversation. On the other hand, you seem to be prone to name-calling, overuse of exclamation points and taking your toys and going home.

    I think you need to look up what circular logic means, because the rambling example you tried to concoct in your last response has nothing to do with circular logic. Here is an example, however.

    –The Word of God is limited to the 66 books in the Bible.
    –How do you know that’s all of God’s word?
    –Because the Bible is the Word of God and it only has 66 books.

    Now please go back and put together a real example of circular logic from my posts.
    I gave a detailed response to your questions and comments and asked you to do the same. Don’t run and hide now.

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  202. Fourpointer,

    The point is not that Moses didn’t receive the commandments. The problem is your argument that if there aren’t other witnesses, it didn’t happen. You don’t have to believe it happened, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not it actually happened. The Bible contains myriad examples of incidents that happened to individuals in the absence of other witnesses that you would readily accept at true, such as Moses and the 10 commandments or seeing the backparts of God, Noah receiving the instruction to build the ark, etc.

    Regarding Hebrews, you are using the Didache and letters of Polycarp and Ignatius, all of which are excluded from the Protestant canon, to support that canonicity of Hebrews, which is strange logic from someone who subscribes to the closed canon view. Based on that perspective, all it really proves is that it was quoted, like many other works that are not part of the canon, including the Book of Enoch.

    You have missed the point, however. The issue is not about whether or not Hebrews is scripture, which I already stated that I accept. The issue is authorship, and that is because of the standard you articulated for determining whether or not a book should be considered canonical or not. Neither you nor I nor anyone else for that matter (aside from God) knows who wrote Hebrews. The style and greek of Hebrews is substantially different from that of the Pauline epistles, and, consequently, the consensus among Biblical scholars is that it was not written by Paul. As a result, it fails to meet your own criteria for canonicity, because it cannot be proven to have been written by a) an apostle, b) an associate of an apostle or c) an eyewitness to Christ’s ministry.

    As a side note, since you use the Didache to support your argument, do you also accept its provisions with respect to post-Biblical prophets?

    Regarding the Gnostic meaning of females becoming male, that is typical of the kinds of hidden meanings in Gnostic texts. I am by no means an expert on Gnosticism, but I have done a considerable amount of study on the subject. You asked what it meant in Gnostic theology and I told you. It shouldn’t be taken literally. If you don’t like it, take it up with a Gnostic. It doesn’t matter to me.

    You also asked for my views on the RLDS. That’s a pretty vague question, so I’m not sure what you want to know. If there is something specific, please clarify the question and I will respond accordingly.

    Thanks for your responses.

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  203. Re: RLDS–

    They believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God who “restored” the true church. They believe in modern-day prophets. They believe many of the things Salt Lake City believes. They use the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible.

    However, they do disagree on some things (baptism for the dead and celestial marriage, for example). Because of these disagreements, do you believe they are true Latter-Day Saints? For that matter, do you believe the FLDS (who have kept up the early Mormon belief of polygamy) are true Latter-Day Saints?

    (And as far as Gnosticism, I couldn’t care less. It’s all a bunch of nonsensical gobbledy-gook. I’ve tried reading it before. What a bunch of malarkey!)

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  204. I’m not sure what the phrase “true Latter-Day Saint” is supposed to mean, but I think I know where you’re going. The short answer is I don’t worry about all that. I’m not in the condemnation business. I leave that to God to sort out.

    Do you accept devout Catholics as true Christians? What about Eastern Orthodox and Coptic Christians?

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  205. TruthSerum,

    Remember, you ask me to come and play, since you are enjoying our conversations, and you are not upset. I totally would love to go at you 100%, tooth and nail. I know in my heart that I have not participated 100% in my conversations with you, and there is a reason, which you probably won’t believe. I will share this about myself anyway; since you shared with me that you work on software. I am a disable veteran that spent 25 years in the US Army, and all the time, due to service related injuries I am in extreme physical pain. Due to spine damage and arthritis, I can’t sit on a computer or actually any where else for any period. This is why I get tired of arguing and why I am not putting together a more precise strategy. However, having our conversations, you will probably respond by saying something to the effect, “You are not a retired soldier and I don’t think that you have disabilities.” But you being a fine American of the Mormon faith, which probably never ever served his country and has probably worked all of his life in a cushy little office couldn’t start to understand.

    I disagree with you in a lot of different areas, even though I believe that you are highly intelligent but your downfall is that you seem a little too cocky and proud, which is a dark trait. You say that I need to give you a better example of circular logic. I really don’t think that I need to since you have already provided it. How can you say that you believe the Holy Bible, and all sixty-six books are indeed basic beauty and then you say that men, and writers that provided the scriptural translation were influenced and tainted it? Wouldn’t this make the Holy Bible tainted, so how can you believe that it is a basic works of God? How then could LDS believe it is the work of God, there is your weird logic? One last thing, you asked me to talk to you and I have. You love to argue in a way that deludes and shirks anything that resembles anything worth while. I pray that somehow you would decide to use your talent towards the betterment of man, instead of sharing whatever you are spreading. It has been a pleasure, now I have to get off this cursed computer.

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  206. Serum,

    I am not in the “condemnation” business either. I leave that to the LDS church. Since they claim to be the “only true church” and that all others are the “church of Satan,” they have much more experience condemning others than I do (For example, Brigham Young is quoted as saying, “Every spirit that confesses that Joseph Smith is a Prophet, that he lived and died a Prophet and that the Book of Mormon is true, is of God, and every spirit that does not is of anti-Christ.” (History of the Church (vol.7, p.287))).

    Concerning the RLDS, the question is simple: they believe that Joseph Smith was the prophet of God who restored the truth of the gospel, even though they do not hold to many of those “plain and precious truths.” Do you consider them to be Christians (in the same vein as SLC-following Mormons)? Or are they part of the apostate “church of Satan”?

    As far as devout Catholics–If they are praying to Mary (see Matt. 6:9), and bowing down before statues of her (See Exodus 20:3-5), then I do believe they are lost. By elevating her to a position she is not worthy of (and I believe she would never accept, see Luke 1:48), they are putting her on the same level as Jesus (in fact, some Catholics think of her more highly than they do Jesus) no matter how they try and spin it. There are some Catholics, however, whom I do believe are saved despite belonging (nominally) to the Roman Catholic Church. I don’t know enough about Coptic Christians or the Eastern Orthodox to comment on them.

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  207. Lumpy,

    God bless you for your service to our country. I mean that with all sincerity and would never belittle the sacrifice you and others have made on behalf of our great nation. Thank you.

    You said:

    “But you being a fine American of the Mormon faith, which probably never ever served his country and has probably worked all of his life in a cushy little office couldn’t start to understand.”

    I would remind you that there are many ways to serve our country, and you should not belittle the contributions of others who have served in other ways. You don’t know anything about me or the types or quantities of service I rendered on behalf of others. And getting to this “cushy little office” job has required a tremendous amount of personal sacrifice. The company I founded is creating software that is of great value to many government entities, including the United States Armed Services, as well as many corporations throughout our country.

    I want you to understand that my purpose in posting here is to attack the logic of some of the posts that are attacking my faith, including some of your own. If you review my posts, you will see that I am not attacking your faith or labeling you as anything other than a Christian. I have only attacked the arguments you are using to attack my faith.

    Never once did I say the Bible is “tainted.” I raised the issue of whether or not the decisions regarding which books to include or exclude were fallible. I also used examples to challenge the logic of an absolute standard by which a book can be declared canonical. But I never said any of the books in the Protestant canon were anything other than scripture.

    You label me as cocky, but if the shoe were on the other foot–that is, if your faith was the one being attacked–I believe you would certainly step forward and vigorously challenge those who were attacking it.

    Once again, God bless you for your service. I wish you well with the physical challenges you face.

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  208. Fourpointer:

    Brigham Young employed a lot of hyperbole in his sermons. If you want to latch onto that old quote, go ahead. I could whip out a bunch of quotes too, but I’d rather just answer your question directly.

    I don’t consider you to be part of the church of Satan. I consider you to be a Christian. Likewise, I consider RLDS to be Christians. Likewise, I consider Catholics to be Christans. I don’t believe I have the right to tell anyone who believes in the atonement of Jesus Christ that he or she is not a Christian, regardless of any doctrinal differences we may have. I believe that is only for God to decide.

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  209. “Don’t Christians believe in human sacrifice?”

    Why, yes they do. There is nothing they are more enthusiastic about.

    If you find that question (used by counter-missionaries in Israel) and its logically correct answer misleading, you are starting to understand the problem Mormons have with the “Satan’s brother” sneer.

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  210. Hey FourPointer,

    Do the Mormons really believe that the Holy Bible (66 books) is indeed inspired and not corrupted?

    After reflecting a few days over some comments on this blog, I feel that some do indeed talk with combative zeal and perplexity. I really wish some would take their medication, as prescribed, before meeting the public and getting on this blog. Why certainly not wanting to rekindle the spherical ramblings of some people, (If Moses met them there probably would have been more commandments). However, haven’t you noticed how one minute an assault of a specific area happens, and within minutes, hours or days, (I guess by some form of progressive esoteric revelation), this very same area that was being scrutinized and doubted could later be inspired, sort of? Hilariously, this doubt is highlighted and underlined by their supposed belief of corrupted councils, politicians, and kings, to include the translators of God’s Words?

    If all truly believe God’s Word is inspired, why couldn’t all concerned parties just chatted over a cold Coke and agreed for example that the Holy Bible (all 66 books) is the word of God? However, this smoke screen is most certainly not the case; some have said that the Holy Bible is inspired, but in truth it is really only for convenience. So therefore what was the real discussion over? According to the late Dr. Walter Martin he summarized “In truth, whenever a Mormon belief contradicts Scripture, the Mormons say that particular part of Scripture is translated incorrectly, and that the correct translation is in one of the Mormon scriptures (The Maze of Mormonism, p. 131). Thereby, the Bible is rejected as the infallible Word of God. [e.g. “The Bible is considered usable, but suspect due to its many errors and missing parts” (Articles of Faith No. 8, Ensign, January 1989, pp. 25, 27). Remember, one blogger claimed, “I accept the Bible to be the word of God, but I understand how it came to be in its present form. I do not subscribe to the belief that God only inspired 66 books and that there can be no more or no less.”

    However, the bottom line is this eccentric theology that clearly pushes for some additional works by using twisted shady tactics, and placating doubt in the credibility concerning men of councils, kings and translators. Wasn’t it Satan that used similar tactics by saying, “”Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’??” I guess when a strategy works; Satan likes to re-use it because ever since he has been asking the question, “Did God really say…?” These doubts leave the gateway open for anyone to add or claim anything to the scripture, without challenge. New Agers, Gurus, and Cultic charlatans specialize in this tactic. However, sir, you already know this very well, so I am preaching to the choir. Basically, I am in awe and disbelief in the cognitive incoherency and perplexity of some people.

    FourPointer, please keep on keeping on. I ask for your prayers for healing, I will be off this blog for a time, probably for weeks, the pain in my neck and upper spine is intense.

    Jesus is Lord

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  211. Lumpy,

    Yes, they do believe the Bible to be inspired…kind of. And only when it suits their purpose. Of course, their interpretation of even the clearest passages of the Bible is shaded by their LDS background. Their 8th “Article of Faith” says, “We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is correctly translated

    Joseph Smith said “I believe the Bible as it is read when it came from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed various errors.” (Smith, quoted in BOM Student Manual, p. 14)

    McKonkie said, “There is no more false or absurd doctrine than the sectarian claim that the Bible…contains all the word of God.” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 453-454).

    But the most telling quote of all is from a editorial from Church News, which was later quoted in The Life and Teachings of Jesus and His Apostles (p. 3), “When the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price offer information relative to biblical interpretation, these should be given preference in writing and teaching.”

    This belief that parts of thew Bible are somehow missing comes from 1st Nephi 13:24-27, wherein “God” says that many “plain and precious truths” would be removed by corrupt men. But yeah, you’re right, it’s another case of “Hath God truly said…?”

    Of course, since, as you said, the concerned parties chatted over a cold Coke rather than a hot cup of Postum, the LDS declined to participate.

    And you’ll be in my prayers, frined!

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  212. I must admit, reading these posts takes a toll on the Spirit. I can only imagine how those of you posting must feel.

    To my Christian Brothers and Sisters that are LDS, their is no reason to defend attacks on our faith here; it’s not very productive. Using the “gotcha” doctine will not work on either side.

    There are many brothers and sisters hungry for the Gospel, unfortunately they aren’t the ones posting here. Being an LDS, if I could lead a LOST soul to Jesus (whether they choose to be Baptist, Pentecostal, Angelican, TV Evangelical, Orhtodox, Methodist, or Mormon) I know my Heavenly Father would be pleased. However, if I chose to bash Baptists, Pentecostal, Angelican, TV Evangelical, Orhtodox, Methodists, or Mormons and led them away from Jesus? – Well let’s just say I probably wouldn’t make his Christmas Card List.

    I know we are all God’s children, (which makes us brothers and sisters) so I’ll choose to treat everyone as such. I know my beliefs are true and I’ll do my best to do the right thing and live rightoues through Jesus….if I’m wrong I guess I’ll be waving to you from hell – right? (sarcastic)

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  213. If we are all God’s children then all should be saved? Please show me that in the Holy Bible, perhaps I missed that all are God’s children? Here is scripture from the Holy Bible; Romans 9:7-8 7 “Just the fact that they come from Abraham doesn’t make them truly Abraham’s children. For the Scriptures say that the promises apply only to Abraham’s son Isaac and Isaac’s descendants, though Abraham had other children too. This means that not all of Abraham’s children are children of God, but only those who believe the promise of salvation which he made to Abraham.”

    Then why are only his chosen saved? Roman 8:28-30, “And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”

    Your belief that all are God’s Children is basically that of an Arminian, which emulates a false righteousness somewhat higher on the scale than that of Pelagius and his views of free-will. Ask yourself a simple question; wouldn’t all of God’s children certainly enter the Kingdom of Heaven? Please read Matthew 7 in its entirety, which it declares that even some that believe they are saved will be turned away; Matthew 7:22-23 22. “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

    Jesus is Lord

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  214. Translation of LumpyMeatLoaf:

    -You Mormons are not God’s Children. You are not my brother/sister. The only way you may become one of God’s Children is through the Atonement of Jesus Christ (eh-um, that is as long as it is at a non-Mormon church). How vain of you to think that the Heavenly Father that you love, pray to, and worship would claim you as one of his children just because you claim Jesus as your Savior – It’s not enough that he’s your Savior, but he has to be a Savior through my church.
    ————————————————————————————–

    Does that sum it up?

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  215. Excuse me, I didn’t say any of the above, you did. Your translation is faultier than your previous statement. Previously, you said.” I know we are all God’s children, (which makes us brothers and sisters) so I’ll choose to treat everyone as such.” Simply, I ask you where you got such a notion. I just provided the book and I gave you the scripture stating that not all of Abraham’s children were God’s children…. It is God’s Word if you don’t like it then take it up with him….. One other thing, I don’t need a Mormon, Baptist, Catholic or anyone else to translate for me, I use a Bible. I read my Bible, you should try it. I gave you Holy Scripture word for word, so perhaps your defensive posturing and uneasiness is truly aimed at the contents of the Bible? In addition, I also pointed out an entire chapter, which clearly predicates that not all that believe they are save and doing faulty works will not make the kingdom of heaven, or perhaps you believe Jesus was untruthful? I didn’t mention anything concerning Mormonism, whereas you last comment was full of subjection and feelings. I was only pointing out the fault in your comment that all are God’s children, which is a view that Arminians use, and a point whereas Pelagius himself would be proud to hear. Again, I will ask where you obtained such a view whereas all people are God’s children, perhaps a book, chapter and verse would suffice. Is your view strictly subjective or do you have any objective proof? If you don’t have any tangible evidence, which trumps God’s word why don’t we just end it here, on this note.

    One last thing, I don’t know what you are but I do know what you aren’t, “A mind reader.”

    Jesus is Lord

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  216. Lumpy,

    Davy’s belief that we are “all God’s children” is fundamental to Mormonism. They believe that in “the pre-existence” we were all “spirit children” of Elohim (Whom we call “Our Father in Heaven”, and LDS refer to as “Heavenly Father”). Two of these “spirit children” were Jehovah (Jesus) and Lucifer (from the LDS home teaching manual Gospel Principles, chapter 3).

    We must also look at what Mormons believe about sin. They do not believe sin is anything more than “bad judgment,” or “not using our agency properly.” ‘Agency’ means that we already know to right from wrong, and we must “choose the right,” and it is how we have the freedom to serve God from birth, definitely Pelagian. See Romans 5:18-19.

    However, we also know from the Bible that we are not ALL literally “children of God.” In fact, God only has ONE begotten Son (John 1:14). Those who believe in Christ are His children by adoption (Romans 8:14-16; Ephesians 1:5; John 1:12). Those who do not know Christ are children of the devil (Ephesians 2:3; John 8:41-44). And, as John the Baptist told the Pharisees, “and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones” (Matthew 3:9).

    Plus, according to LDS teaching, Christ’s death on the cross did not purchase eternal life for all who believe. His death guaranteed a “general resurrection” from the dead for ALL people. Only those who follow the MORMON gospel will achieve “exaltation” (godhood), and only the really worst, most wicked (murderers, adulterers, LDS apostates) will go to Hell, and that only for an indefinite period. Space does not permit me to expound more on the “three degrees of glory.”

    Of course, while Mormons like Davy will claim, “How vain of you to think that the Heavenly Father that you love, pray to, and worship would claim you as one of his children just because you claim Jesus as your Savior,” they also don’t have a problem saying that the only ones who will go to the highest glory are the people that are “good MORMONS,” and belong to their church.

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  217. And the comments in this post go on, and on, and on . . .

    I wonder why these other topics on Mormonism have had little or no comments by LDS apologists:

    What do Mormons really believe about Christians?

    3,913 Documented Changes to the Book of Mormon

    Mormonism’s History of Outlandish Outer space Opinions, Crazy Cosmology, Silly Spacemen, and Lunar Lunacy

    What Mormons Have Said About the Apostle Paul

    According to Mormonism, Are We To Have A Personal Relationship With Jesus Christ Or Not?

    LDS finally admits that Joseph Smith was a polygamist, and that he told different versions of the “first vision.”

    On this Martin Luther King Jr. Day, the Mormon church wishes to remind you that they’ve been racism-free since 1978.

    Joesph Smith explains the meaning of the word “Mormon.”

    When is an “everlasting covenant” not an “everlasting covenant?” When polygamy becomes unpopular.

    The Gordon B. Hinckley Interview

    Recognizing the 202nd birthday of Joseph Smith by posting some of his false prophecies.

    Requirements for Mormon Salvation

    Thanks to Mormonism, discerning good from evil is as easy as a handshake or a hair color.

    33 Facts Mormons Won’t Tell You

    Mormonism on how spiritual veggies differ from earthly veggies.


    The Mormon doctrine of Blood Atonement as taught from the mouth of Brigham Young.


    The Doctrine of Blood Atonement as taught by the Mormon organization.


    The top 5 Brigham Young teachings that Mormons desperately try to conceal from you.


    Who is the “Angel of Light” and what contribution did he make to Mormonism through Joseph Smith?

    Lifting the Veil on Polygamy

    The Bible vs The Book of Mormon

    DNA vs The Book of Mormon

    The Lost Book of Abraham

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  218. The longer this post gets the less likely anyone will read all of it and see the truth.I don’t think it’s a coincidence.

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  219. YOU MAY BELIEVE WHAT YOU ALL LIKE. BUT AS A FAITHFUL MEMBER OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS, I KNOW THAT THIS CHURCH IS TRUE, AND EVERYTHING IN IT. THERE IS NOT ONE BIT OF FALSENESS IN THIS CHRUCH AND I WILL STAND NEXT TO IT IF IT IS ME AGAINST THE WORLD. AND WHO ARE YOU TO CRITISIZE YOUR NEIGHBOR? INSTEAD OF GOING MORE IN DEPTH TO THIS, READ OUR “13 ARTICLES OF FAITH”. THAT IS WHAT WE BASE OUR BELIEF ON. MAINLY, MAY I PUT EXTRA EMPHASIS, OUR BELIEF IS BASED ON ALL THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS CHRIST WHO DIED ON THE CROSS AND ATONED FOR OUR SINS, AND THAT IT IS BY HIM AND THROUGH HIM ONLY, THAT WE WILL RECIEVE ETERNAL LIFE. ALL OF YOU WHO CRITISIZE, PLEASE KNOW THAT WE ARE NOT HERE, NOR HAVE ANY MEANING OR THOUGHT TO HURT ANYONE, OR “LEAD ANYONE DOWN THE PATH OF DESTRUCTION.” IF YOU THINK YOU KNOW IT ALL ABOUT OUR RELIGION, YOU DONT. WHO BETTER TO KNOW ABOUT THE TRUE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST THAN A MEMBER OF THE LDS CHRUCH. I KNOW ITS TRUE, AND IT IS YOUR CHOICE TO BELIEVE IT OR NOT.

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  220. The following comment was left on Reformation Nation addressed to Fourpointer from someone identified as DC:

    I have a question for this fourpointer guy. We’re you a Mormon at one point? Because you sure sound like you were! I wouldn’t be suprised if you left the Mormon faith because you couldn’t comply with church standards. That is usually how it happens these days. Be honest now. Don’t lie about it. You should try teaching about the things you believe. I haven’t read much about what you believe, you just spend every waking hour trashing on other faiths. You have a little too much time on your hands.

    Obviously DC can’t comprehend the idea that perhaps someone can warn others about a false religion without it being because they did or did not formerly attend said cult. I personally have never been a member of LDS myself (and can’t speak for FP) but I desperately have a passion to see Mormons repent of their sins, become born again, and know the real risen Savior: the Jesus Christ as revealed in Holy writ.

    DC, I am sure if you want to honestly discuss the issues, Fourpointer and others would be more than willing to do so. Just don’t begin your defense of Mormonism with you must not have been able to hack it as a Mormon and now you’re just mad. That LDS rhetoric has run its course and it’s time to put that excuse-to-avoid-the-issues to rest.

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