What do Mormons really believe about Christians?


Time and time again, when trying to share the truth with Mormons, they employ numerous diversion tactics. One of the most common is playing the victim. An example of this would be something like this:

I quote (in context) one of their prophets on a topic; let’s say the racist teachings of their prophet Brigham Young: “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses,Volume 10 Page 110)

There’s three typical Mormon responses:

1. You took that quote out of context.

2. That’s not our doctrine, it was Brigham’s opinion.

3. Stop attacking our faith.

Each one of these excuses holds no water. 1. Simply look it up for yourself and see if it’s in context or not. 2. If Brigham Young taught this stuff, why do they believe anything else he has to say?

I could go on more about those, but today I want to focus on diversion number three. I have found that time and time again, Mormons will play the victim as if their organization has been humbly going about its business when big mean Christians came along and suddenly attacked them (usually they add that it’s for some personal gain on our part).

Well I present to you today, for your examination, that when we expose LDS doctrine we are in fact defending the Christian faith from an ongoing attack from Mormonism. Why? The very existence of Mormonism is contingent upon the idea that Christianity is apostate and everything that we believe has been corrupted by Satan. Mormons shot the preemptive strike a long time ago by their founder who supposedly was told by God and Jesus (depending on which version of the first vision you want to adhere to) that, “I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right—and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt.” (Joseph Smith, Pearl of Great Price, Extracts From the History of Joseph Smith, The Prophet 2:18-19)

Let’s see what else Joseph Smith and other Mormon prophets & leaders have said about Christians, our faith, and our God:

Joseph Smith said:

If I show, verily, that I have the truth of God, and show that ninety-nine out of every hundred professing religious ministers are false teachers, having no authority, while they pretend to hold the keys of God’s kingdom on earth, and was to kill them because they are false teachers, it would deluge the whole world with blood. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith,Pages 344-345)

The scriptures are a mixture of very strange doctrines to the Christian world, who are blindly led by the blind. (History of the Church,Volume 6 Page 478)

What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith,

Page 270)

Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (History of the Church,Volume 1 Page xl)

And what did Brigham Young (the second prophet of LDS) have to say about Christians?

The Christian God is the Mormon’s Devil. (Journal of Discourses,Volume 5 Page 331)

The Christian world, so called, are heathens as to their knowledge of the salvation of God. (Journal of Discourses, Volume 8 Page 171)

We are the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints—not a church but the church—and we have the doctrine of life and salvation for all the honest-in-heart in all the world. Who else has got it? Is it to be found in the creeds of Christendom? It is not. (Journal of Discourses,Volume 12 Page 173)

When the light came to me, I saw that all the so-called Christian world was groveling in darkness. (Journal of Discourses,Volume 5 Page 73)

And what did John Taylor (the third prophet of LDS) have to say about Christians?

What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast. (Journal of Discourses, Volume 6 Page 25)

We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense. . . . It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century. (Journal of Discourses, Volume 6 Page 167)

And what did Bruce R. McConkie write about Christians?

And virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ. (Mormon Doctrine, Page 269)

What is the church of the devil in our day and where is the seat of her power? . . . It is all of the systems, both Christian and non-Christian, that perverted the pure and perfect gospel . . . . It is communism; it is Islam; it is Buddhism; it is modern Christianity in all its parts. It is Germany under Hitler, Russia under Stalin, and Italy under Mussolini. (The Millennial Messiah, Page 54-55)

If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 2, pp. 1-350.) (Mormon Doctrine, Page 670)

And what about Orson Pratt?

Must we be slaves to custom and render homage to the soul-destroying, sickening influences of modern Christianity? (The Seer, Page 111)

Must we, under the broad folds of the American Constitution, be compelled to bow down to the narrow contracted notions of Apostate Christianity? (The Seer, Page 111)

Q. After the Church of Christ fled from earth to heaven, what was left?

A. A set of wicked Apostates, murderers, and idolaters, who, after having made war with the saints, and overcome them, and destroyed them out of the earth, were left to follow the wicked imaginations of their own corrupt hearts, and to build up churches by human authority, and to follow after the cunning craftiness of uninspired men; having no Apostle, Prophet, or Revelator to inquire of God for them: and thus, because of wickedness, the Church, and Priesthood, and gifts, and ordinances and blessings of the everlasting Gospel, were taken from the earth, and reserved in heaven until the fulness [sic] of times, when it was predicted that they should again be restored among men to continue until the end should come. (The Seer, Page 205)

He that would be saved must not only be sincere, but embrace the true gospel, be baptized into the true Church, and continue a faithful member of the same unto the end. This is the only way to be saved with full salvation. As neither Catholics nor Protestants are members of the true Church, they cannot claim celestial glory. (The Seer, Page 206)

Many have been taught to seek forgiveness by prayer, and have been told that baptism being only an outward ordinance would not avail any thing, and that it is to be administered to those only who have already received forgiveness:  these are doctrines of false teachers, and they are the wicked traditions handed down by apostate Christendom.  Baptism is a condition of forgiveness, and to teach mankind to seek for pardon in any other way than the one set forth in the gospel, is a wicked perversion of truth, and all such false teachers will, if they do not repent, be sent down to hell; for cursed be that man or angel who preaches another gospel, or perverts the true gospel of Christ. (The Seer, Page 255)

And in the 1997 printing of the LDS published Gospel Principles they have this to say:

One by one, the Apostles were killed. Because of the persecution, surviving Apostles could not meet to choose and ordain men to replace those who were dead. Eventually, local priesthood leaders were the only ones who had authority to direct the scattered branches of the Church. The perfect organization of the Church no longer existed, and confusion resulted. More and more error crept into Church doctrine, and soon the destruction of the Church was complete. The period of time when the true Church no longer existed on earth is called the Great Apostasy. Soon pagan beliefs dominated the thinking of those called Christians. The Roman emperor adopted this false Christianity as the state religion. This church was very different from the church Jesus organized. Members of this Church believed that God was a being without form or substance. (Page 105)

After the Savior ascended into heaven, men changed the ordinances and doctrines that he and his Apostles had established. Because of apostasy, there was no direct revelation from God. The true Church was no longer on the earth. (Page 109)

As a young boy, Joseph Smith wanted to know which of all the churches was the true Church of Christ. . . . The Savior told him not to join any church because the true Church was not on the earth. He also said that the teachings of the present churches were “an abomination in his sight.” (Page 110)

I could go on and on and on. Suffice to say Mormons attacked Christianity before Christianity ever knew about Mormonism. So don’t fall for the Mormon lie when they pull out the victim card. Their organization’s teachings, doctrines, and its very existence is an affront to Christianity, the Bible, and ultimately God Himself. Their attempt in the last few years to polish their image to appear as if they’re just another Christian group–and act like victims when challenged by Christians–is not just dishonest, but it is a cleverly packaged deception.

We acknowledge without hesitation that there are differences between us [and Christians]. Were this not so there would have been no need for a restoration of the gospel.(Current LDS “Prophet” Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign, Page 4, May 1998)

44 thoughts on “What do Mormons really believe about Christians?

  1. They don’t like it when you use the “words” for their prophets to prove a point. THEY are the only ones allowed to do that.


  2. What amazes me so much about the LDS leadership is that, as you quoted, JS, Jr. “…asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right—and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt.” Yet now, they WANT to be considered “Christians.”

    They want to be part of these churches that were so “corrupt”, whose “creeds were abomination”, and that Joseph Smith was not to join. I have been wondering this: Does the Mormon church think that the church in America is any better than it was in 1820? (Or 1821, or 1824, or whichever year they decided Joseph had his “vision”?)

    If the early LDS leaders thought that all these things the “Personage” told Joseph were true back then, why does the current leadership think they are not true today? Between the “seeker-sensitives” and the”Purpose-Drivens” and the “easy-breezy decisionists” and the just plain heretical (see: TBN), why does Pres. Hinckley want to be lumped in together with these groups, if there creeds are an “abomination?”

    Hinckley’s quote from above: “We acknowledge without hesitation that there are differences between us [and Christians].” Yeah, ya got that right. That’s like saying there’s a difference between a dog and a pickup truck.

    Concerning the racism that was a part of the early LDS: You can also find it in the BOM. 2 Nephi 5:21–“And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity…wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.”
    3 Nephi 3:15–“And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites.”
    So, in 1960, the LDS had to change “white” to “pure.” How else could they explain the fact that even after many Native Americans (and African Americans) joined the LDS, their skin was still dark? (There’s a really good write-up on the issue at http://www.mrm.org/topics/book-mormon/white-and-delightsome-or-pure-and-delightsome-look-2-nephi-30-6)

    And Bryce, if Pilgrim is wrong, as you say he is, why not show us where/how he’s wrong?


  3. I think the thing to understand here is that when someone tells a Mormon that they’re not Christian, it sounds like they’re saying “You don’t believe in Christ”. Mormons are devoted to and worship the Savior, Jesus Christ. If you define a Christian as someone who believes in Jesus Christ, his miraculous birth, life, atonement, death and resurrection, then, by all means, Mormons are Christians. If you define Christian as someone who, for example, believes that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are abstract, absolute, transcendent, immanent, consubstantial, coeternal, and unknowable, without body, parts, or passions and dwelling outside space and time (from the Nicene Creed, AD 325) – if that’s the requirement in your definition to be Christian, then, no, by that measure, Mormons wouldn’t be Christians – that’s not how they define the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. I’m all for the definition that a Christian is one who believes in Jesus Christ. As for all the disagreements about his life, role and attributes, that’s why we have so many different Christian sects.


  4. Please consider this question, Shaun: you say you “believe in Jesus Christ.” I don’t doubt for one moment you think you do. However, it is eternally important that you not believe in “another Jesus” (2 Corinthians 11:3-4), or “another gospel” (Galatians 1:8-9). If somebody said they knew me, but described me as someone who grew up in California, starred in movies, played in the NFL, and died at the age of 1000–they would not know the real me. Those things are not true about me, and that “me” is nonexistent. Any doctrine that springs up out of such a belief is not true, and that person believes a lie.

    However, if you said, “Yeah, I know him. He was born in Auburn, NY. He goes to a Baptist church and he lives in Knoxville, TN” then you would be talking about the real me (hypothetically speaking, since I’m not giving too much info away).

    Likewise, if someone tells me that they believe in a Heavenly Father who had to learn how to be God, and they believed that Jesus Christ had to learn how to be a God Himself, and that Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer, then I would tell that person, “That is not the true Jesus. That is not the true Father. You are believing and trusting in a lie.”

    As far as “so many different Christian sects,” here is a list of various different Mormon sects (one is no longer in existence, but the fact it did arise speaks against the theory that the LDS church is somehow immune to divisions):

    * LDS Salt Lake City (LDS-SLC)
    * Reorganized LDS (Community of Christ)
    * Fundamentalist LDS
    * Church of Christ (Temple Lot)
    * Restoration LDS
    * Church of Christ With the Elijah Message
    * The Church of Jesus Christ
    * The Church of the Firstborn of the Fullness of Times (now defunct)
    * The Church of Jesus Christ (Cutlerites)
    * The Pentecostal LDS
    * The Restored Church of Jesus Christ
    * The True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days

    There are (more than likely) many more that we don’t know about. Some of these sects disagree on the importance of polygamy. Some believe that the LDS-SLC has corrupted Joseph Smith’s teachings. Some believe the LDS-SLC was wrong to abandon polygamy. Etc, etc, etc. The Mormon church is not as “unified” as they like to make people think they are.


  5. Fourpointer, you bring up some good questions, and I like your analogy. What if we took that analogy a little further…

    Say you had a couple of friends in college who one day met, and realized you were a friend in common. One could say, “Yeah, I know fourpointer, he’s got a great three-point shot and loves to go to movies”. The other one, based on his experience with you, might say, “I don’t know much about his ball skills and movie tastes, but I do know he helped me pass a class I would have flunked without his help”. They’re both talking about the same guy, and both know a lot of the same things about you, but at some point they may get into areas about you that either one or the other didn’t know, or perhaps where they’ve had different experiences with you and they flat out disagree. Despite their differing experiences, it’s still you they know, and still call a friend.

    Well, that’s probably a stretch on the analogy, but what I’m trying to say is that Mormons believe Jesus was born in Bethlehem, that he turned water into wine, that he fed the 5000, that he raised Lazarus and the daughter of Jairus from the dead, that most importantly, he suffered for all, and for me, in Gethsemane and on the cross, and that he rose from the dead on the third day, and lives today. He has helped me through some very rough times in life, and I know I wouldn’t have made it without Him. I think you believe those same things, that you’ve had some of those same experiences, and that we’re both talking about the same person. And with our firm belief in Him and desire to follow Him, we are both, by definition, Christians.

    Now I do expect that we’ve both had different experiences growing up, learning about and learning to know the Savior, and because of that, we’ll differ on a number of topics. There’s probably a lot we could learn from each other. Differences aside, fundamentally we both recognize Christ’s divinity, are devoted to Him, and are Christian people.


  6. Jesus:

    Mormonism: Jesus is literally the firstborn of all heavenly Father’s and Mother(s)’ spirit children. He is every individual’s spirit brother, including Lucifer’s and the third of the host of heaven who were cast out. He was born in order to get a body, to redeem man from the effects of sin, and to work out his own salvation as part of The Plan.

    Christianity: Jesus is God incarnate. He always existed as God (Philippians 2:6-8, 1 Timothy 3:15-16, John 1:1). He created the universe and everything in it (Colossians 1:16). We become brothers by adoption. He came specifically as a sacrifice for our sins and to redeem us from death and hell.


  7. Very well put Shaun – a person that believes that Christ, the Son of God, suffered and died for all of our sins that we might repent and be saved is surely a Christian. Although didn’t Christ say “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden*, and I will give you rest*. Take my yoke upon you*, and learn of me*; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls*. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

    * Except for Mormons that believe in that other Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who suffered for all of our sins that we might repent and be saved


  8. They come in a group.
    They post comments in a group.
    They eventually leave in a group.

    Sometimes they do come in solo, utter a random “drive-by” remark, and speed off never to be heard from again (like Jim did in this post).

    And yet the fact that Joseph Smith was a false prophet still goes unchallenged.

    I caught on to this blog-barrage tactic with another group of Mormons (and those who claim they’re not but defend them on every point) and inquired about it. One of them was kind enough to concede the following:

    “What happened is that a blog that has a lot of content and not a lot of commenting going on got a fair amount of internet coverage because of the Deseret Book/Joel Osteen thing. I have a lot of LDS friends that turned me on to this site (We all dont like Joel Osteen – haha) and I love to hit both sides of the argument. I am a debater at heart and love a fair-sided one. 2 of my LDS friends and I (I am not LDS) have been going back and forth on this blog and its been educational for me (I cant speak for them). I am impressed with the passion and education on both sides.”


  9. They come in a group.
    They post comments in a group.
    They eventually leave in a group.

    They stole this tactic from women visiting restrooms.


  10. Dear Cruci-Fide,

    My heart breaks for these people. When they can’t even grasp the simplistic, elementary concept that their version of Christ differs greatly from the Biblical / Christian version of Christ, how can they understand anything else? If–as they keep claiming–we both follow the same Christ, then what was the need for Joseph Smith to restore anything, and why all the hateful, mean-spirited, and awful things said about Christians by Mormons? (See the quotes from Mormon leaders in the above post).

    You see, Jesus warned us that many would come in His name and many would claim to be Him, and many would say He was here, or there (or appearing in America to Lamanites). He made it pretty clear that there would be false Christs, and false teachers, and false prophets who would mislead MANY. Yet the average Mormon cannot even begin to wrap his mind around the idea that they could possibly be the ones spoken of by Christ as being deceived. It is heartbreaking.

    I truly feel for them when they stand before the real Christ one day and their heart sinks in despair because it will be at that precise moment that they realize that they have been tricked into following a false Christ. One of Joseph Smith’s imagination. One that cannot save. This sobering, hopeless, and terrifying feeling will only be compounded when they plead their case to Him about all the “good works” they did in His name and He utters the words to them that He prophesied in Matthew chapter 7, “Depart from Me, I never knew you.”

    – The Pilgrim

    P.S. Great comment on the “prayer pills” post. I am still in stitches. You should comment on here more often.


  11. I am a Mormon and I believe in Christ. I know He lives. He is the Savior and Redeemer of mankind. He suffered for our sins so that we may repent, be cleansed, and come unto Him. He died on the cross, and rose from the dead on the third day with a body of flesh and bones. He is our Advocate with the Father. He is our Lord and King. He is the Prince of Peace. In 1820 the Father and the Son, Jesus Christ, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith and the Father introduced His Son: “This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!” From the beginning we have sought to “Hear Him!” This isn’t a recent thing. The church is called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by revelation from Christ Himself. From the beginning we have baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and by so doing we make a covenant with Christ to follow Him and obey Him. We pray in the name of Jesus Christ. We partake of the sacrament every Sunday in remembrance of Jesus Christ’s body and blood which was sacrificed for mankind through His Atonement. We are taught to learn His word from the Bible and the Book of Mormon, Another Testament of Jesus Christ, which has over 6000 references to a name or title of Christ every 1.7 verses. It prophesies of Him, teaches of Him and His mission, and contains His words when He visited the New World after His resurrection. This is Jesus Christ whom we worship, who leads His church today, who has appeared countless times to the prophets He has called today, and with whom the prophets and apostles receive revelation to lead and direct the kingdom of God on earth in preparation for His second coming.

    Would it surprise you if the creeds of Christiandom aren’t Biblical? The respected Harper’s Bible Dictionary records that “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament]” (Paul F. Achtemeier, ed. (1985), 1099; emphasis added.). Those creeds and formulations that have been developed over the centuries are not to be found in the Bible, and as such, they are not Biblical. Of all that has been said of Christ over the centuries, we will believe Christ first.

    Christ Himself announced when he appeared to Joseph Smith that the philosophies of Christiandom and the various sects “draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof” (JS-H 1:19). Has this happened today? Yes. How do they draw near to Him with their lips? They proclaim that a single solemn profession of belief with their lips is enough to save them, and that nothing else is required. This is a profound lie, an evil man-made doctrine that feeds itself upon the souls of men, for men will not be saved any faster than they come unto Christ and actually receive His image in their countenance, which takes a complete change of heart, soul, and mind, and sacrificing of our will for Christ’s. The man-made philosophies of the day indeed deny the very mission of Christ, all the teaching He gave, and the commandments that He left us to obey in order to become like Him. Such lip service is an abomination in His sight if it is not followed by a complete submission of our passions and desires for the things He has commanded us to do.

    Do we believe in Christ? Yes. Do we believe those fables that have been formed about Him over the centuries since He died? No. Do we believe that God speaks today? Yes. Do we believe He has called prophets and apostles today as He did anciently? Yes. Do we believe that they reveal His word through revelation and the spirit today? Yes. Do we believe that they are still human and fallible? Certainly. Jesus Christ was the only perfect man to walk the face of this earth. We all make mistakes. Can we be forgiven? Yes. That is the beauty of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. When we submit ourselves to God, and covenant to obey His commandments, He offers us the opportunity to repent and partake of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, whereby we can be washed and receive a remission of our sins. This is not a one-time occurrence in our lives. We have promised and covenanted to continue to feast upon the word of Christ, continually repenting daily for the mistakes we make, and God will forgive us our trespasses against Him. We must be willing to do all we can to follow Christ and keep His commandments, including repentance, until the day we die, and then, and only then, will Christ say, “Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord” (Matt. 25:21).


  12. To add to your list of questions:

    Do you believe that God the Father had to “learn” how to become a God? Yes.
    Do you believe that Jesus had to “learn” how to become a God? Yes.
    Do you believe that Jesus and Lucifer were “spirit brothers” before creation? Yes.
    Do you believe in the God of the Bible? No.
    Do you believe in the true Christ? No.
    Do you follow a false gospel? Yes.
    Are you Christians? No.
    Do you need to leave the Mormon church and learn the truth about God? Yes.

    Bryce, go back and follow some of the threads that have been going on here. Then read the Bible, and you will know the triune God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit, these three Persons are ONE GOD, not 3 gods) is the true God.

    Here’s some verses for ya:
    Psalm 97:9–“For thou, Jehovah, art high above the earth. Thou art exalted far above all gods.” Even above Elohim?
    Isaiah 44:6–“Thus says Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: ‘ I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no Elohim.” Hmm. Two Jehovahs (plural) saying “besides ME (singular) there is no Elohim.” How is this possible if Jehovah and Elohim are two separate Gods? And is there no God besides Jehovah? These are questions the Mormon church cannot answer.

    There are many more that I’ll use if that’s what it will take to convince you. I will also share with you the changes the Mormon church made to “the most correct book of any on earth,” and why they made the changes (hint: it wasn’t for “clarity of language.”)


  13. fourpointer – let’s go through your list again:

    “Do you believe that God the Father had to “learn” how to become a God?” No. We believe we are all of the same species. God is our literal Father. He created us in His likeness and in His image (Gen. 1:26). He is a man, a human, as are we, except that He has progressed much much further than we have. He is an exalted, immortal, glorified, and perfected man, as is Jesus Christ, His Son (Eph. 4:12-13). As we’ve said, we are all gods in embryo, since the Father is our spirit father we have the potential to become like Him (Heb. 12:9). Christ Himself accounted His divinity on the fact that He was a son of God, and quoted the scripture from Psalms in which we are told that “ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High” (John 10:32-40; Psalms 82:6). Christ led the way and asks us to follow Him so that we might become like Him, divine as He is, and become joint-heirs with Him in our Father’s kingdom (Romans 8:16-17; Rev. 3:21). So it is not a matter of learning how to “become a God”, but by progressing to become perfect like our Father, as we have been commanded to do (Matt. 5:48).

    “Do you believe that Jesus had to “learn” how to become a God?” No. He was already a god. See my above comments. But Christ did learn and grow and progress (Luke 2:52), until He grew to a point where after His resurrection He stated that all power was given to Him in heaven and in earth (Matt. 28:18). He received all things, all the honour, glory, and dominion from the Father (John 16:15). And such has the Father also promised to those that believe in Christ and follow the straight and narrow way Christ has laid out (Matt. 7:14). Thus we become perfect in Christ (Col. 1:28).

    Do you believe that Jesus and Lucifer were “spirit brothers” before creation? Yes, and they are still “spirit brothers”, as is everyone who has ever been created by God. God is the Father of all (Eph. 4:6). God the Father is Christ’s father too, as Christ said over and over and over again (John 17:5). But their status of being “spirit brothers” largely misses the point and distorts the understanding of their current status one with another. They are nothing like each other. Nothing could further differentiate Jesus from Satan. Jesus obeyed the Father, and submitted Himself to the Father’s will, and for such is crowned with glory and honour (Luke 22:42). Christ is our Savior and Redeemer who worked out the Atonement for us. Satan sought to subvert the Father’s will, and take His glory, and for such will be damned forever (Isa. 14:12-15).

    “Do you believe in the God of the Bible?” Yes. I think it is clear from the above passages of scripture that I’ve quoted that we believe in the God of the Bible.

    Do you believe in the true Christ? Yes. For there is only one (Eph. 4:4-6).

    Do you follow a false gospel? No. We follow the restored gospel of Jesus Christ which He has revealed today in preparation for His second coming.

    Are you Christians? Yes. Christ is the center of all our teachings, and is the only name under heaven whereby we may be saved in the kingdom of God (2 Ne. 31:21; Mosiah 3:17; Acts 4:12).

    Again, the doctrine of the Trinity, as understood today by many in Christiandom, is not to be found in the Bible. It was a fabrication of the councils of the fourth and fifth centuries. The Godhead consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, which are three separate and distinct beings, but one in purpose, mission, love, grace, and redemption.

    “Psalm 97:9–’For thou, Jehovah, art high above the earth. Thou art exalted far above all gods.'” Yes, He was exalted further than the rest of us in the pre-mortal world, because He was the Father’s firstborn there. But no, he was not above the Father, Elohim. The Father is greater than the Son (John 14:28).

    “Isaiah 44:6–’Thus says Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: ‘ I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no Elohim.” Hmm. Two Jehovahs (plural) saying “besides ME (singular) there is no Elohim.’ How is this possible if Jehovah and Elohim are two separate Gods? And is there no God besides Jehovah? These are questions the Mormon church cannot answer.” How about I answer them then? Jehovah, which was Christ’s pre-mortal name, was a member of the Godhead before He became mortal. He did the Father’s will even before He was made flesh. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost make up one Godhead. They work together. Besides them, there is no other God to us (Cor. 8:5-6). By the way, the entire Genesis account of the creation speaks of Elohim doing the creating (which is plural, and is translated as “God” in our English versions). In fact, when He made man He said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…” (Gen. 1:26). Us? Our? Clearly there was a group involved. There was more than one involved in the creation, one of which was Christ who headed the whole operation under the direction of the Father (John 1:3).


  14. Bryce,

    I totally disagree with every part of your beliefs but I have great respect for your honesty,unlike the majority of Mormons who post here.


  15. Hey, what’s going on here? People on both sides are being honest and acting civilly about their respective beliefs. It almost seems as if it’s better to be having a discussion and real concern about the nature of God and Christ than to be discussing what dominates the mass media (Britney Spears, hyerbole on top of hyperbole, fear-mongering, godlessness, etc.) WEIRD! Thank you Bryce and Christos! Although you may be sending me to the unemployment line because I DO love to play both sides.


  16. Bryce,

    I’ll echo Esteban’s and Christos’ sentiments. We’re not use to having a Mormon here who actually articulates their beliefs honestly and without resorting to “feelings” as their barometer of truth. However, let us look at the Bible vs. Mormonism.

    First off, I must disagree with your contention that the LDS church does not teach that God the Father had to learn how to become God. Didn’t God the Father (Elohim) and, Jesus Christ (Jehovah) go through the same “eternal progression” that we must go through? If so, then the words of Joseph Smith himself tell us that these had to, in fact, learn how to become Gods. From the King Follett Discourse:

    Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God. And you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves…until you are able to sit in glory as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.

    Unless Elohim’s and Jehovah’s progressions were different than those of us born on planet earth, they had to learn how to be Gods. (Besides, if we are already Gods, why did Joseph say we had to “learn” how to become Gods?) But this is not the case. God did not have to “progress” to Godhood. The Father has always been God (Psalm 90:2). Jesus has always been God (Philippians 2:6). The Holy Spirit has always been God (Acts 20:28). Theses three Persons are one God (Deuteronomy 6:4)—it is not a Godhead of three separate Gods. There is one God in three Persons. God has always been God (Psalm 90:2; Malachi 3:6; Hebrews 13:8; Isaiah 44:8). We are not of the same “species” as God. We never will be like God. There is nothing in the Bible that says anything like that. The God of the Bible is triune in nature. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one in every way with each other (John 10:30; Isaiah 44:6, 48:16).

    Jesus and Lucifer were not “spirit brothers.” Jesus is the eternal God (John 1:1), Lucifer is a created being (Genesis 3). And yes, even Lucifer was created by Christ (Colossians 1:16). Since Jesus created Lucifer—and Lucifer did not exist prior to his being created around the time of the creation of the universe—they cannot be brothers.

    If Jehovah was not exalted above Elohim, then why does the Psalmist say He was? This verse says that Jehovah is exalted over all gods. There is no exception in this verse. All gods. Clearly, the Psalmist is speaking of the triune God—Jehovah—being over the earth and anything else that claims to be God (or a god).

    Your explanation of Isaiah 44:6 is lacking somewhat. If these two Jehovahs are two separate Gods, and are only “one” in that they are of one accord, then why did they not say, “There is no God besides US?” After all, that’s what Elohim said in Genesis 1:26. “Let us make man in our image.” The reason God used this phrasing in Genesis is because “Let us make man in our image” does not mean that we are God like Him (Isaiah 44:8). He meant that he would make man with a body, soul, and spirit—but one being (for lack of a better word). Now, this is not to say that God the Father has a body—Jesus is the only member of the Trinity to have a body (John 1:14, Acts 1:8).

    We are each one human being made up of three parts—body, soul, spirit. God is one God made up of three persons—Father, Son, Holy Spirit. This is why in 1837 the original 1830 reading of 1 Nephi 11:21 (along with various other similar verses such as 1 Nephi 11:32, 13:40) was changed from “behold the Lamb of God, even the Eternal Father!” to “behold the Lamb of God, even the Son of the Eternal Father!”

    Again, thank you for your honesty about your beliefs. I pray that you will read this and come to know the truth.


  17. “If there were a point where a man in his progression could not proceed any further, the very idea would throw a gloom over every intelligent and reflecting mind. God himself is increasing in knowledge, power and dominion, and will do so, worlds without end. It is just so with us.” (Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, page 120).


  18. fourpointer,

    I’m glad that we can have a good discussion. Hopefully we can come to a better understanding of one another.

    No, the LDS Church does not teach us “how to become God”. God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost will forever be our God, and no one will replace them. The LDS view of theosis or deification does not replace or supplant God. Let’s look at the entire quote from the King Follett Discourse:

    “Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power” (History of the Church, vol. 6, 305-306).

    Note, first of all, that Joseph said that we have got to learn how to be “gods” ourselves, with a lower case “g”. This is no more or less than understanding what our true nature is, which mirrors exactly what the Psalmist declared, that we are in fact “gods; and all of you are children of the most High” (Ps. 82:6). We must understand who we are if we are to understand our ultimate potential. “And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together” (Rom. 8:17). What happens to those that suffer with him, and who overcome the world? “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne” (Rev. 3:21). We will be crowned with glory, honour, and dominion (Peter 5:4; Rev. 2:10, 3:11; Ps. 8:5).

    So, the correct wording would NOT be that we are “learning how to become God”. We don’t believe that. Joseph didn’t believe that either; in the next breath he said, “and to be kings and priests to God.” We don’t replace Him. But rather we are “learning how to become LIKE God”. There is a big difference. As God’s children, we want to become like Him, and He wants us to become like Him also. Christ commanded us, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect” (Matt. 5:48)! We don’t believe this is an allegorical or figurative statement, but that we can, in fact, learn how to become like God, and become perfect like He is.

    Did God the Father and Jesus Christ go through the same eternal progression? Yes. But were they “learning how to become God”? No. Were they “learning how to become LIKE God”? Yes. Christ did those things which He had seen the Father do, and in this manner He became like God, and received all that the Father had (John 5:19; John 16:14-15; John 6:37). Christ led the way, marked the path, and showed us what we must do to likewise become like our Father, and receive of His divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4).

    Jesus has not always been a God (Luke 2:52; Matt. 28:18). If he increased in “wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man” and had power “given” to Him, then at some point in time He was not was He is today. He received what He has from the Father. And He certainly is not the same being as the Father. The very scripture you quote in Philippians 2:6 says, “Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” We are talking about two different beings here. Jesus did not pray to Himself when he pleaded with His Father. When Christ was baptized, a voice from heaven spoke and said, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” (Matt. 3:17). This was God the Father speaking from heaven, while His Son was in the water below.

    If we are not all spirit brothers, then why are we told that God is the “Father of spirits” (Heb. 12:9), and that we are all “children of the most High” (Ps. 82:6)? Why do we address each other by “brother” and “sister”? If Lucifer was a created being, then why are we told that he was a “son of the morning” who was once in heaven but who fell, and was cast out (Isaiah 14:12; Rev. 12:7-9)? We were all morning stars there, and sons of God (Job 38:7). Christ did not create Satan. Why on earth would He do that? What goal would that accomplish? Why would He create the very being with whom He fought so desperately against His whole life, and who is in opposition to everything that is good and of God? No, Lucifer was a “son of the morning”, a son of the Eternal Father in heaven, who rebelled against the Father of his own free agency, and was cast out with a third part of our brothers and sisters (Isaiah 14:12-15; Rev. 12:4).

    Jehovah was not exalted above Elohim. Again, Christ is not greater than the Father (John 14:28). But He has received all that the Father hath (John 16:15). The Father has made Him equal with Him in godhood, power, glories, dominions, principalities, but Elohim will always remain His Father, as He will always remain our Father.

    Who says that Isaiah 44:6 is talking about two Jehovahs? Looks to me like they are both talking about the same Lord, who has several titles, “King of Israel” and “Lord of Hosts”. He is also “King of kings, and Lord of lords” (1 Tim. 6:15; Rev. 19:16), noting that there must be other kings and lords if He is to claim these titles. God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost make up one Godhead. Besides the Godhead, there is no other God that we worship or have anything to do with (1 Cor. 8:5-6). They are separate and distinct individuals, but are one in every other sense of the word, that is why the scriptures often refer to the Godhead in the singular (John 10:30). They are so united, in fact, that the through divine investiture of authority the Son speaks for on behalf of the Father. The only communication that we have had directly from the Father since Adam is when He has introduced the Son (Matt. 3:17; Matt. 17:5; JS-H 1:17). The Lamb of God can still be called the “Eternal Father”, as He still is throughout the scriptures (Alma 11:38-39; Mosiah 15:1-5; Mosiah 16:15; Isaiah 9:6; Mosiah 7:27; Hel. 14:12). Christ is also a Father to us in that He marked the path that we must follow in order to return to God’s presence. It is only in becoming sons and daughters of Christ through our acceptance of the covenants of His gospel that we can hope to partake of His Atonement and be saved (Mosiah 15:11; Ether 3:14). He is also the Father of all creation, which He did under the direction of God the Father. But this does not mean that Jesus Christ IS God the Father. They are two separate and distinct individuals, as the scriptures attest.

    Yes, God the Father has a body of flesh and bones, just like the Son, for the Son is not greater than the Father (John 14:28; D&C 130:22)

    Do you know what the literal meaning of damnation is? It is a complete stop of progress. Like a dam in a river prevents water from flowing downstream, being damned means that you will forever be stopped. Those that are damned will be stuck in a state of neverending sameness. Such is not God. Being perfect does not mean that all is said and done, and eternity will be one big freeze-frame. No. God is dynamic, ever increasing, ad infinitum. God will forever be continuing adding glory upon glory, perfection upon perfection, exaltation upon exaltation. How does He do this when He is already perfect? By exalting His children. “For behold, this is my work and my glory — to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).


  19. Bryce,

    Thank you for the response. Looking back, I may not have worded my previous response properly, so let me clarify. I never intended to sound as if we would “replace God” as God of this world. And I do know the LDS church teaches that Jesus (Jehovah) was already a God before creation.

    However, I must again disagree with your assessment of Mormon history. Many of the prophets (including Joseph Smith) taught that God the Father was not always (big G) God. In that same King Follett Discourse, he goes on to say, “I am going to tell you how God came to be God.” In the original, both uses of “God” are capitalized. He goes on to say, “We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.”

    Joseph Fielding Smith said as much several times in Doctrines of Salvation. For example, in volume 2, p. 48, he writes, “The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fulness of his kingdom. In other words we will have the privilege of becoming like him. To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fulness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring.”

    While this does not mean that we will “replace God” as God of this world, it does certainly say this: That God the Father was not always (big G) God, that He had to “progress” to His state of Godhood, and that we too can become a (big G) God of our own world, with our wife(ves) and children.

    Here is the relationship between Psalm 82 and John 10. Psalm 82:1God is in the congregation of the mighty and judges among the gods. In John 10, Jesus is standing in the congregation of the mighty and is judging among those who are called ‘gods’. Here is the Son of God, standing in their midst to judge among them. When He quoted this one verse, the Pharisees knew what He was talking about. It is as if He is saying, “Why are you so upset that I have come to judge you? Is it because you are afraid that I will judge you righteously? The Scripture cannot be broken. I must stand among you—the (little w) word of God came to you before, and the (big W) Word of God is among you now. I am the Son of God standing in the midst of (little g) gods. You’ve seen Me, so you’ve seen the Father. You are ‘gods’. But I am GOD. The Father is in Me, I am in Him.” This was why the Pharisees were so upset by His presence: He came to bring an end to their theocracy, and their being “gods” over the people. When Jesus told them “Ye are gods,” He was not saying that as a good thing.

    Jesus created everything, even the angels and, yes, even Lucifer, the one who would oppose Him. Why would He do it? It was His will. Proverbs 16:4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. But even Lucifer is subject to God’s authority (Job ch. 1-2).

    God is called the “Father of spirits” not because we are literally His children by birth. After all, Jesus is the only Begotten of the Father (John 1:14). And it is only by receiving Him that He gives us the right to become children of God (John 1:12). Christians are “brothers and sisters” with each other—joint heirs of Christ (Romans 8:17), and counted to be His brethren (Hebrews 2:11)—because God adopts us as His children when we confess our sins, repent of our sins, and believe in Christ as our Lord and Savior (Romans 8:15, Galatians 4:5, Ephesians 1:5).

    Jesus has always been God (John 1:1). God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit—these are three Persons, but one God. The Godhead is not made up of three separate Gods. When the Bible speaks of “(big G) God”, it speaks of ONE God—not three Gods. The reason Father, Son, and Holy Spirit can be thought of as one is not only because they are in such agreement they speak as one (although that is true). It is because they are one God. And if Jesus is our “Father”, then why the changes to the Book of Mormon? If the words that Joseph told Oliver Cowdry to write down were from God Himself, why change them?

    Here is the difference between the orthodox view of the Trinity and the LDS: The passage at the beginning of Mosiah 15 is talking about one God of the Mormon Godhead coming to earth in the flesh, thus becoming both Father and Son, correct? And that this is why you can call Jesus both Father and Son, and still consider Him to be one God? If I’m wrong, please feel free to correct me. However, the orthodox view of the Trinity says this: That God the Son, who has always been God—THE one (big G) God—came to earth, still being God, but NOT the Father. The Father and Son are one, but not just because of agreement—they are one God because they are one God.


  20. fourpointer,

    This has been a good discussion. Yes, I agree that your wording was not correct. We do not teach how to “become God” for that implies that we will somehow replace Him. That is not the case at all. We teach that we can progress to a state of perfection where we can become “like God” and possess the attributes and characteristics that He has. But He has been, is, and will always remain our God.

    Did God the Father progress to the state He is in right now? Yes. Is He still progressing? Yes. Has He always been our God? Yes. Is there ever a time when He wasn’t our God? No!! Never! Can we progress to the same state of perfection, and become like God our Father? Yes.

    Just yesterday I was playing with my baby girl, and she was making every effort possible to mimic and imitate what I was doing; from my mouth movements, to my motions, to my speech – everything I did my daughter wanted to do the same. She studies intently and aspires desperately to be just like me, her father. She gets great joy when she copies me, when she says something the same way I have said it, when she does something the way I have done. The example parents set for their children has been stressed over and over again, because children will ultimately become very much like their parents, if they follow their example, guidance and direction.

    We are not dealing with anything different here. We literally believe, as did the early Christians and Christ Himself, that we are children of our Heavenly Father, that we are spirit sons and daughters of Him, that we were born of Him in our pre-mortal life, that He is our Father, and that through the testing of our pre-mortal life, this mortal probation, and eons of time to come, that we can some day become like Him who is our Father. For Christ commanded us to have our focus such, to become like God (Matt. 5:48).

    I disagree with your reading of Psalm 82 and John 10. You make it sound like saying “ye are gods” was a type of derogatory injuction against those who were addressed as such. The Psalms scripture says, “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.” Being children of the most High is not a bad thing! They were “gods” because of their relationship with the most High God. They were His children, as we all are, and thus gods. That is not a bad thing; it is a very good thing, for only when we understand our relationship to God can we truly understand our existence on this earth and our future potential. If we are to have eternal life, we must come to know this relationship which we have with our Father. “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” (John 17:3). If we don’t understand this, our purpose on this earth and our existence in the eternities is meaningless. We will not be playing harps and singing songs for eternity as single solitary angels in heaven. I know of nothing that could be more boring and damning than that. There is so much more than that in store! “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him” (1 Cor. 2:9).

    The Jews attacked Christ as a blasphemer for saying that He was God. Christ used the Psalms scripture to show the Jews that they didn’t believe their own scriptures, as He often pointed out to them, because the scriptures say that we are all gods. I believe Christ was saying, “Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures. The scripture itself says that ‘ye are gods, even the the children of God’. The Psalmist called them gods who received the word of God (the scriptures, the covenant, the gospel), then why are you getting so upset when I say that I am the Son of God? Don’t you believe what is written, that we are all His children?” The LDS Church has been ridiculed and attacked time and time again, just like Christ and the early Church was, for saying that we are all gods, and that we are blasphemers for saying so.

    Christ did not create Lucifer. God the Father is the “Father of spirits” (Heb. 12:9), and it is He who fathered all of us in the spirit. And God did not create evil! Christ did not make Satan! Lucifer fell, as a choice son of the Eternal God, he fell of his own free will and choice, he fell and rebelled against the Father and all that is good and right and true, and sought to take away our free agency and the glory of God. God creates men, but they are not wicked in the beginning. Men become wicked of their own free will and choice. God created Lucifer, for he was his son, but Lucifer created Satan. The author of evil is Satan, and he is the father of all lies, and whatsoever is evil cometh of the devil.

    Jesus is the only Begotten of the Father in the flesh, but He is not the only Begotten of the Father in the spirit. God the Father is the “Father of spirits”, we are all “children of the most High”, and we are the “offspring of God” (Acts 17:29). We become figurative sons and daughters of Christ when we are adopted into His household of faith by having faith in Christ, repenting of our sins, being baptized by immersion for the remission of sins, and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. Thereby we come into a covenant with Christ and He can call us His sons and daughters.

    Jesus has not always been God. John 1:1 says that He existed in the beginning, the “beginning” being a certain point in time. Did He exist before that? Not necessarily. Has the earth always existed? For it says in Genesis that “in the beginning” God created the heaven and the earth. Revelations 3:14 teaches, “And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen [Christ], the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.” Here we clearly see that Christ Himself WAS God’s first creation, the “beginning of the creation of God.”

    God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit make up the Godhead, yes. But they are three separate and distinct individuals with one purpose. They can only do what they are all in agreement with. Thus they are one God together.

    In several senses Jesus is a “Father” to us, but He is not God the Father, or Elohim. Many editorial changes have been made to the Book of Mormon, even many from Joseph Smith himself. Why? The scribes, transcribers, typesetters, and copiers did not get it right. There is actually a big project going on right now at BYU under the direction of Royal Skousen to try to uncover the original text of the Book of Mormon as it fell from the lips of the prophet. Even so, it has gone under much less transmission than the Bible, and is still the “most correct of any book on earth”. Notice the word “most”; it is not perfect. The ancient authors themselves told us that they made errors (1 Nephi 19:6).

    I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again. God the Father, Elohim, and Jesus Christ, Jehovah, are two separate and distinct individuals, as the scriptures clearly attest. The modern view of the Trinity was not formulated until the 4th and 5th century councils.


  21. Bryce,

    Jesus’ statement to the Pharisees—”Ye are gods”—was not necessarily a derogatory term. With all due respect, I stand by my interpretation that Jesus was telling them, “You have been judging unrighteously (the context of Psalm 82). I am here to show you how to judge righteously. You have been called (little g) ‘gods’, and even yet you call me a blasphemer because I say I am (big G) God.” But notice something else Jesus said—John 10:35, “If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came…” Jesus is here referring to those men who were appointed to judge according to the Old Testament Law. Because of their office, they were accounted as (little g) ‘gods.’ However, Jesus was saying, “I am the Son of God. I am (big G) God.”

    Even James Talmage wrote, in Jesus the Christ (p. 501),

    In Psalm 82:6, judges invested by divine appointment are called ‘gods.’ To this scripture the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon’s Porch. Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted title ‘gods.’ Compare the similar appellation applied to Moses (Exo. 4:16; 7:1). Jesus Christ possessed divine authorization, not through the word of God transmitted to Him by man, but as an inherent attribute.

    This seems to say that it is by their appointment as magistrates that they acquire the title (little g) ‘gods.’ I understand that Talmage was not President/prophet of the LDS church. But he was a member of the Quorum of Twelve when he wrote it. And Gordon Hinckley even said in Ensign (May 1994, p. 53) that “Each man who is ordained an Apostle and sustained a member of the Council of the Twelve is sustained as a prophet, seer, and revelator.” That said, even Talmage sounds like he thought the title of (little g) ‘gods’ was simply because of their office.

    As far as the issue of every person being a “child of God.” One does not necessarily have to be one’s literal offspring to be called their son. Consider the words of John the Baptist. Matthew 3:9—”And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.” This same John said the Pharisees were, “..of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.” (John 8:44)

    We are all created by God, but we are not necessarily all children of God. He is the Father of our Spirit (Hebrews 12:9)—just as He is the Father of every part of us—by adoption as sons (Ephesians 1:5), because we have been redeemed to receive the adoption as sons (Galatians 4:5), and because He has given us the Spirit of adoption (Romans 8:15). The word “offspring” is not the best translation of the Greek word “genos” in Acts 17:29. “Genos” can also mean “born, family, kindred, nation.” If Luke had meant to say “offspring” he would have used a word like “gannao” (Eng: procreate) or “gennema” (Eng: offspring).

    In Revelation 3:14, the Greek word “arche” does indeed mean “beginning.” But it also means, “Origin; that by which anything begins to be; the person or thing that commences [a thing]; the first place, principality, rule, magistracy.” On other words, Jesus is the one who commenced the creation, the Originator, the Ruler, the Magistrate over all creation. And yes, He did create Lucifer. Look again at that verse in Proverbs 16:4—Jehovah hath made all things for Himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. John 1:3 says there is nothing created that was not created by Christ. Since Lucifer is a created being, we must necessarily come to the conclusion that Jesus created Lucifer (see also Nehemiah 9:6)—for Himself.

    The orthodox Trinity was not invented in the 4th century. It was confirmed and established in the 4th Century. The reason for calling the Council of Nicea was to refute many heresies that had arisen—chiefly Arianism, which teaches the Jesus was a created being (much like what Jehovah’s Witnesses teach today). The Council did not invent Christianity, they defended it. In fact, the idea of the orthodox Trinity was in existence long before Nicea. The 2nd Century Christian apologist Tertullian said this: A ray of this power, this light, became man, in the womb of a virgin, and is Christ. For as a ray is projected from the sun but does not diminish the sun’s light, and is of the same nature and substance as the sun’s light, but an extension of it, so the Son of God has proceeded from God, and is One with Him, and not separated. The idea of the Father and Son being one even before the creation was not invented at Nicea. It is indeed found in Scripture.

    One thing I guess I don’t understand is this: If God showed Joseph Smith one word at a time, and Joseph spoke those words—one at a time—to Oliver Cowdry, who wrote it word for word, and the word would not disappear until it was written correctly, and Joseph had the book published, and would (more than likely) have raised any objections about what was published—Then why all the changes in the first place?


  22. fourpointer,

    Yes, the statement “ye are gods” can apply narrowly to just those judges who received divine appointment, and who were authorized representatives of God, although even such a narrow definition could apply to the entire priesthood body who receive God’s divine authorization to act in His name and in His stead, and to be His representatives on earth. But if we widen our view a little, we can see that it can apply to all people too because of their relationship with the Father. Everyone has the potential to become like God, not just the judges. Even the early Justin the Martyr taught:

    “‘God standeth in the congregation of gods; He judgeth among the gods…I said, Ye are gods, and are all children of the Most High’…let the interpretation of the Psalm be held just as you wish, yet thereby it is demonstrated that all men are deemed worthy of becoming “gods,” and of having power to become sons of the Highest” (“Dialogue with Trypho 124,” The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 1:262.).

    Irenaeus taught the same:

    “For we cast blame upon Him, because we have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods; although God has adopted this course out of His pure benevolence, that no one may impute to Him invidiousness or grudgingness. He declares, “I have said, Ye are gods; and ye are all sons of the Highest” (“Against Heresies V.38:3,” The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 1:521.).

    He then also rhetorically added:

    “How, then, shall he become a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his maker? For it must be that thou, at the outset, shouldest hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God” (Ibid.).

    Tertullian adds to the conversation:

    “For we shall be even gods, if we shall deserve to be among those of whom He declared, “I have said, Ye are gods,” and, “God standeth in the congregation of the gods.” But this comes of His own grace, not from any property in us, because it is He alone who can make gods” (“Against Hermogenes V,” The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 3:480.)

    These early Church Fathers clearly recognized the wider application of these verses of scripture to all man, who all possess the potential to become like the Father.

    You say, “As far as the issue of every person being a ‘child of God.’ One does not necessarily have to be one’s literal offspring to be called their son.” This would be great except that we are expressly told that we are the “offspring of God” (Acts 17:29). I don’t know how the scriptures could be any more clear than saying that we are the “children of the most High” (Ps. 82:6), the “offspring of God” (Acts 17:29), that God is the “God of the spirits of all flesh” (Num. 16:22), that we are “children of the Lord your God” (Deut. 14:1), that our “spirit shall return unto God who gave it” (Eccl. 12:7), “that we are “sons of the living God” (Hosea 1:10), that “have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?” (Mal. 2:10), that “we are the children of God” (Rom. 8:16), that God is the “Father of all” (Eph. 4:6), the “Father of spirits” (Heb. 12:9). What else do the scriptures have to say before we will believe them?

    Jesus did not create Lucifer. God the Father created Lucifer, for he was His son, even as Christ is His son. I don’t know how many times Christ told us that God was His Father, yet the majority of Christiandom still refuses to believe it.

    As I have said previously, even the respected Harper’s Bible Dictionary admits that “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament]” (Paul F. Achtemeier, ed. (1985), 1099; emphasis added.). If it is not to be found in the New Testament, then why did the 4th and 5th century councils confirm it and establish it? Where did they get it from if it was not from the scriptures? I submit that it was from the Neoplatonic influences of the Greek culture that made them adjust their view of God to be more “popular” and accepted among the people of the time who were converting to Christianity.

    It is clear that the Book of Mormon is not perfect. We have never claimed that it is perfect. And if God reveals changes or adjustments should be made to it to make it more perfect we will not argue with Him.


  23. Bryce, my man, and fourpointer, my hombre, keep up this thread of thought, because I am looking forward to the next honest, well-studied point from both sides of the aisle. (I realize that was a semi-political reference – so pardon me for that). This is a rarity indeed. (I also apologize for all, well almost all, of my snide remarks . . . since I was born).


  24. Bryce,

    While I do respect and admire the work of many of those considered to be “Early Church Fathers,” there are some I agree with (Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Athanasius) and some I don’t (Origen). And even those I agree with on some matters, I disagree with on others. The early fathers, though admirable, I do not consider to be the final authority on any subject. For that final authority I look to the Bible.

    That said, it is intriguing that in that same work by Irenaeus (The one you quoted above), he goes on to say, “If, however, any one say, ‘What then? Could not God have exhibited man as perfect from beginning?’ let him know that, inasmuch as God is indeed always the same and unbegotten as respects Himself, all things are possible to Him. But created things must be inferior to Him who created them, from the very fact of their later origin; for it was not possible for things recently created to have been uncreated [That is, we are created, and we did not exist prior to the creation recorded in Genesis. Such is not the case with God.] But inasmuch as they are not uncreated, for this very reason do they come short of the perfect.

    Further on he states the following: “While men indeed, cannot make anything out of nothing, but only out of matter already existing, yet God in this point is pre-eminently superior to men, in that He Himself called into being the substance of His creation, when previously it had no existence.” This same Irenaeus is saying that we—in fact, nothing other than God—existed until created by God.

    Further yet, Irenaeus believed God Himself to be unbegotten, contrary to the Mormon belief of Him being begotten by a mother and father, and progressing to His current state of Godhood (By “Godhood” I mean as the God who created this universe, and is omnipotent over all, not the “god in embryo” type of godhood). And since God is uncreated, and we were created by Him, we cannot—and are not—of the same species as God. In fact, man did not exist before God took a handful of dirt and created him.

    In fact, just before the first quote of Irenaeus you mention, he says this: “…they who are more destitute of reason than dumb animals (insist) that there is no distinction between the Uncreated God and man, a creature of today.” (Against Heresies, Vol. 4, p. 38) That does not sound like he’s making a case for deification. God is not like man. In fact, He is not a “man” (Numbers 23:19). There was never a time when He did not exist, and there was no God before Him (Isaiah 43:10, 46:9).

    Many Mormon scholars have tried making the case that Early Church Fathers taught a doctrine of “apotheosis”—men becoming a God like God Himself. In fact, it was a quote from Irenaeus that Lorenzo Snow turned into his famous couplet (“As man is now, God once was. As God is now, man may become.”) However, Snow severely misinterpreted that quote. The quote says, “Jesus Christ, through his transcendent Love, became what we are, that we might be even as he is himself.” (Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. I, pg. 26) This is not, however, talking about humans becoming Gods like God. He is talking about those who know Christ as their Savior becoming holy and acceptable to God, like Christ Himself (See also Matt. 5:48; Romans 4:8; 2 Cor 5:17; Eph. 1:4-6, 2:10; 1st John 3:2-3). If we were gods (In the Mormon sense of the term) when we were born, then why did Joseph tell the people they had to “learn to become gods yourselves” in the King Follett Discourse?

    We could, I suppose, be considered (little g) “gods” in the sense that Satan is the (little g) “god of this world” (2 Cor 4:4). And when we are born we desire to be our own god, and in fact we are our own god. We exalt our needs and wants above those of God Himself (Isaiah 14), and are, in fact, enemies of God (Romans 5:10) for there is no fear of God in us (Romans 3:18).

    The only way we can be considered “children of God” apart from knowing Christ is in the sense of the statements of John the Baptist I cited in my previous comment. You could say we are “children of God” in that regard, but not any other way. After all, Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:3 that we are “by nature children of wrath.”

    Again, the Greek word used in Acts 17:28-29 is “genos”, not “gennesis” or “gennetos”. While “gennesis” means “procreate” and “gennetos” means (literally) “offspring”, “genos” refers to a wider scope of “descent.” And in fact, it comes from a root word that means, “to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being; to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage; to be made, finished; to become, be made.” In fact, in verse 28 Paul is simply quoting the words of the Greek poets (See also 1 Cor 15:32). Acts 17:28—”For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also his [creation].'” Then in verse 29, he uses the same word himself. (I mistakenly attributed these words to Luke in my previous post.) Now, what this passage is saying (Considering Paul uses the word “genos” [a generic word for coming into existence] as opposed to the more specific “gennesis” or “gennetos”), is that we are a “creation” of God—that is, He is the one who caused us to come into existence. Knowing this distinction makes the other verses (Deu. 14; Hos. 1; Mal. 2, etc.) come into a clearer focus—that we are a product of creation, and not so much a product of procreation, and as such could be called—although not in a literal sense—”children” of God.

    As for the belief in the triune God—Tertullian, writing a full 115 years before Nicea, said, “We … believe that there is one only God, but under the following dispensation… that this one only God has also a Son, His Word, who proceeded from Himself, by whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made. Him we believe to have been sent by the Father into the Virgin, and to have been born of her-being both Man and God, the Son of Man and the Son of God, and to have been called by the name of Jesus Christ…All [three Persons of the Godhead] are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons — the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” (Adversus Praxeas, 2).

    Ignatius wrote in his Epistle to the Ephesians (18:2,3), “For our God, Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost.” The concept of the Trinity was in its current form ling before Nicea.


  25. I agree that the Mormons are an attack from Satan. Everything that the believe is against the Word of God. They don’t believe in the deity of Christ, they don’t believe that you have to get the Holy Ghost wit the evidence of speaking in a heavenly tongue, ( Acts 2, and 10), they believe in having several wives when the Bible says clearly one man and one women can be married not one man and multiple women, ( Ephesians 5:31, Titus 1:6).
    This is a comment to Fourpointer, you said that you look to the Bible as the final authority but have only quoted from men who aren’t even mentioned in the Bible. The people tried to reason and rationalize an all powerful, all knowing, all seeing, everywhere at once, always has existed God. Our finite minds can never fully grasp the Infinite God until we reach heaven. The Bible says,
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    The same was in the beginning with God.
    All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
    In Him was life; and the life was the light of men.
    And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
    There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
    The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through Him might believe.
    He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
    That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
    He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not.
    He came unto His own, and His own received Him not.
    But as many as received Him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name:
    Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
    And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. ” John !:1-14

    I can even go Old Testament Isaiah 9:6:
    “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”

    Jesus said it with His Own Mouth,
    John 8:58
    “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”

    (Only the God of Glory could say that).

    John 10:27-30,
    “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

    And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
    I and my Father are one. ”

    It’s written in 1st Timothy 3:16:
    “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”

    In 1st John 5:8:
    “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

    In Ephesians 4:5:
    “One Lord, one faith, one baptism.”

    He that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit of God is saying unto the churches.

    Fourpointer there is only one true truth out there and that is the Word of God. Oh yeah and if I were you I wouldn’t put to much faith in Ignatius I found out that he was a heretic of the worst kind. He didn’t believe that people should praise God with abandon like they do in some Churches, didn’t believe that the Holy Ghost was shown by speaking in tongues. Couldn’t understand the Tri-Unity of God, and also thought that there should be a person that had all the power and only God Himself had more. He left the apostles and other Churches and formed the false Church of the Catholics. Who began to teach that Mary didn’t get saved and was assumed into heaven along with Jesus Christ. Which goes directly against the Word of God. It says in Acts 1:
    “And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
    These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and

    Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

    And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) ”
    It named Mary and his brothers and sisters, (brethren was a word used for both genders during this time period), specifically so no one could get confused, (our God is so wise in His doings isn’t He!:)

    Yes I found that in order to defeat the devil you better use some scripture because that is the only Book that has Words of true power, the power of the Almighty.

    “Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.”
    John 8:32


  26. I’m sorry I didn’t quote the whole text about Mary and how she got saved here it is,
    ” The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
    Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
    To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
    And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
    For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
    When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
    And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
    But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
    And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
    And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
    Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
    Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day’s journey.

    And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
    These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
    And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) …..
    …And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
    And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
    And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
    And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. ” Please read Acts chapters 1 and 2.

    Thank you:)!


  27. Shaun says, “- that’s not how they {Mormons} define the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. I’m all for the definition that a Christian is one who believes in Jesus Christ. As for all the disagreements about his life, role and attributes, that’s why we have so many different Christian sects.”

    Hmmmmm???? According to your definition and description, you predicate that one only needs to believe to be a Christian? Hmmmm, Shaun, If thats all it takes then Satan and all of the fallen angels must also be Christians because he surely believe????


  28. Sorry again I said that this my comments were to Fourpointer, they are to everyone not just him. And also all of you trying to argue with a Mormon, its useless and a waste of web space. The Bible says that because they would believe a lie rather than the truth of God’s Word. (I also think they brain wash them). The Bible says that He will turn them over to a reprobate mind and they will never hear the truth after that. The
    bible says that,

    “And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.” 2 Timothy 4:4. You can only see and hear the truth if you have willing and open heart. The Bible also warns about people who add and take away from His word it says,

    “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this Book:
    And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this Book.” Revelations 22:18 and 19.

    So save yourselves some time and energy and try to talk to people who has the ear to hear the the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ is saying to the Church.
    Oh yeah, Bryce? He you can call Him Elohim, Jehovah, anyone of the Biblical Names for Him as long as you know that the full power resides in the name of Jesus,

    “Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a NAME which is above every name:
    That at the NAME of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
    And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father.” Philippians 2.
    Mr. Bryce, you need to be re-Baptized, Let me quote the scripture that we all use for Baptism.

    “And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
    Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”

    You guys are like ” see says it right there ‘in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost!” And your right it does say IT right there. But you guys added an S to the word NAME when it is clearly singular. Why you might ask? Because as I already quoted only one name has the power to save and that Name is Jesus Christ. Father is just a title, ( how many fathers are out there) son is just a title, ( do you call your sons or do you call them by there name?, the Holy Ghost is God with and in us. Do you sign your checks Father of Susie and John, Mr. Brice,if you have children, these are made up names, or do you sign it with both your first and last name. Do you sign receipts with “Son of Mr. and Mrs. Bryce?” No you don’t so call His Name, say His Name, use His Name, and be saved.

    God gave the keys to Peter on the day of Pentecost when asked how to be save Peter replied,

    “Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
    Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
    Thats also in Acts 2. It can also be found in Acts 8,

    “(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)”

    And Acts 10,
    “And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. ”

    Thats four different scriptures that all say the same thing

    Oh and to all of the Mormons out there ask your leaders, what ever happened to Moses and Elijah? Weren’t they supposed to return in the early 1900s and then again in the late 1900s? What happened to the two towers they built for them? Hmmm? Please type their answer on hear if you will.

    Hear is another scripture concerning the necessity of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues, Mark 16:17,

    “And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;”

    Thank you:)!


  29. Ransomed,

    I think you misunderstood the reason I quoted the men I did. It was not that I believe these men to be “authoritative”, but to simply point out to Bryce (and any other Mormon who might read this) that the very men he claimed promoted some type of 1st-Century Mormonism actually did not. I am aware that men like Ignatius and (especially) Origen were quite heretical in some of their beliefs. And I would never use them as the final word on God’s Word.

    I hope this clarifies.


  30. The Book of Mormon is a COMPANION to the Bible in the religion.

    They’re chrisitians. Just a hardcore version.

    Meet a true Mormon and tell me they arent a righteous people.


  31. Lizzy,

    I have met many true Mormons and they are NOT Christians. Good morals do not make a person righteous in the sight of God. As for being righteous, Isaiah 64:6 says, “But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.”

    Philippians 3:9-10 reads, “And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death.”

    Lizzy, they may be righteous, but it is NOT a righteousness which will gain them entrance into heaven where they will be welcomed by the Lord Jesus Christ. ONLY those who have come by grace through faith alone in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ and repented of their sins can have salvation. This is the truth of the Word of God which is the Holy Bible and is the only rule God has given to direct us how we may glorify Him and enjoy Him.

    Before you attempt to post any rants about the Mormon church which have been deleted, I would recommend that you read our Rules of Engagement.

    Sharing the Truth of Scripture Alone,
    The Desert Pastor


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