False Teachers

Several years ago, my wife took up the job of organizing the library of the church we were members of. She found some material that looked questionable and asked me to help her figure out which authors should be put in the closet on the “heresy shelf”.

I spent several weeks reading books and researching popular authors and developed a “cheat sheet” of false teachers and a sample of the heresy they taught. Below is a screen shot, the file (6 pages) can be downloaded here.

While I hope this is useful, please note that it is not up to date – some of the newer false teachers this site has brought to light are not included. But the people on this list are behind most of the folks now popular that we should be aware of.

Be on your guard, for the deceiver prowls around like a lion looking for his next meal. A little leaven leavens the whole lump – so do not buy the lie that you should “chew up the meat and spit out the bones.” Test everything – hold to that which is good. When you determine a man (or a woman) to be a false teacher, from such, turn away.

70 thoughts on “False Teachers

  1. HOBO says:

    Mr. Dollar cerainly showed his true colors last week when he strangled his daughter for arguing with him. He was arrested and charged with assault. Also….don’t forget to add Mark Driscoll to your list when you update!

  2. Another pilgrim says:

    Manfred.
    Could you or any other readers of this post please shed a little light (briefly) on;-
    Paul Norcross
    Dr Mathias
    Bill Hybels
    Trevor Noyle
    Mark Driscoll
    Rick Warren
    Some I see for what they are, some are doubtful in my eyes and one or two are acceptable and I would appreciate some unbiased but frank comments. Thanks

  3. Jonathan says:

    Hi Manfred,
    I “met” you on 5pt blog…didn’t know at first you had a blog of your own! Will be making it a regular stop.
    Thanks for sharing the cheat sheet! Very helpful. The quotes very concisely show these teachers to be frauds by their own words.

  4. Jonathan,

    Thanks for stopping by! Pilgrim owns this blog and allows several of us to post up. I will be on 5 Point Salt much less than I used to, due to Joel’s continued self protection and refusal to be corrected. I pray this site – with its many contributors – will be a blessing to you.
    _______________________________________________
    Another pilgrim,

    Mark Driscoll and Rick Warren have been covered on this blog extensively. I encourage you to use the search function on this blog for those two.

    Hybels has fired teachers for warning members about the dangers of Roman Catholic contemplative prayer and then went out and hired a Roman Catholic to teach their contemplative prayer methods to members. He has hobnobbed with Rick Warren, T.D. Jakes and myriad other false teachers for many years. He is a senior uncle within the modern pragmatism movement, along with Warren. If I run across sources for these allegations, I will post them – they are well known in many circles.

    I do not recognize Norcross, Mathias, or Noyle and would encourage you to do some research and let us know what you discover.

  5. I am not familiar with all the names on the list…but oh, the ones I *am* familiar with make me sick. Their deceptive words trick so many! :( this makes me incredibly sad. How do people *not* see them for who they really are? It seems so obvious to me!

  6. Katy – so many people love people more than they love the Lord. I know a man – cannot call him a friend – who is a childhood friend of Kenneth Copeland and he will not bear to consider anything that does support Copeland as a godly apostle. ‘Tis sad, and ought to be a warning to all of us.

  7. Another pilgrim says:

    Manfred
    Thank you for the swift response.
    I do have some info on Norcross, Mathias and Noyle and what I have I most definitely do not like but I was hoping to hear from others what they thought.
    I will search the site for the others. However, Driscoll seems to be a huge influence on the Pastor at our church. I have searched for his sermon on “Song of Solomon” but cannot find it; have also searched for examples as to why he is called the “cussing preacher” (if I have that right) but again cannot find anything.
    He does seem to have a HUGE influence even in churches where one would never expect him to have any influence at all.
    Thanks again and I do hope to hear from some other readers as well.

  8. David says:

    Is in great to know that we have so many guidelines, rules, procedures, instructions, directions,
    Basically LAWS to follow or be cast into the False Teachers category…

  9. David – there is no list of rules one has to follow. If anyone teaches a gospel that is not the biblical gospel, then let him be accursed, for any gospel other than the biblical gospel is no gospel at all. Take it with the Lord – He wrote it. All men have error – the heretic is one who continues in error that strikes at the essentials of the Christian faith.

    Are any of the men on the list “good” in your sight?
    ___________________________________________________________

    Another pilgrim,

    Driscoll is a plague on the church in many ways – his performance at this years ER2 was a huge influence in convincing many professing Christians that T.D. Jakes is within the framework of historic orthodox Christianity, whereas Jakes is a long time, firm modalist and prosperity gospel heretic.

    A quick search for articles warning about Hybels (some folks are too easy) turned up these:

    http://www.gcmwatch.com/tag/bill-hybels

    http://www.americanreformation.org/apostasy/Proctor/SensoryCircus.htm

    http://apprising.org/2011/08/12/bill-hybels-and-homosexuality/

    all of which focus on his warm embrace of homosex.

    Here are a couple (from sources I do not broadly endorse) that document his association with Robert Schuler and Roman Catholics and other cults.

    http://www.cephas-library.com/baptists/baptist_willow_creek_web_of_compromise.html

    http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/hybels_and_schuller.htm

  10. HOBO says:

    Another Pilgrim, Here’s a good place to begin your search for the truth about Mark Driscoll. http://www.driscollcontroversy.com/?page_id=213
    I don’t know much about the other folks on the list, but I do know about Driscoll. He is a very real danger to Christians in the Northwest. I spoke recently to one of his former Deacons and was horrified to learn how organized the structure of the cult really is. They encourage members to organize their lives, spiritually, socially and when possible, financially and professionally around the cult. This makes it nearly impossible to leave because they aren’t just leaving a “church”, they are leaving a “lifestyle”.
    I am a former Pastor, son of a Pastor, and Grandson of a Pastor in a fundamentalist church, a church which subscribes to many of the Misogynistic practices enjoyed by the “men” of Mars Hill. My former church, like Mars Hill, practiced the art of destroying people in their congregations who refused to submit to the absolute authority of the church’s self-appointed leaders. They forced members to submit to public rituals of humiliation which served to enhance the power the leaders have over the lives of the members. The “works” based religiosity practiced by Mark Driscoll and his followers is not original and follows a trend started by weak men centuries ago who need control…control over women, and control over the people around them. I take a personal interest in watching Mr. Driscoll’s progression in his personal dynasty because I have seen the damage his cult has done to one family very close to me. His message to one young woman I know was to drop out of nursing school and care for her home and have lots of children. If Driscoll had his way, girls would not go to school. His brand of Misogyny is very similar to the Taliban. Though this young woman completed school at the urging of her mother, she has chosen to pursue the Mars Hill ideal of having lots of children, not working and forcing her husband to be a “leader” and go make enough money to support the family without her income. They are now drowning financially. We don’t live in a culture where one income can support large families. Mr. Driscoll has yet to explain how this part is supposed to work. He will certainly have an answer to all this and the other critiques of his cult. He always does. Mr. Driscoll has a group of cult followers who are assigned to go on-line and respond to posts about his cult in very scripted answers. I know one of these people personally. The extent of his organizational response is frightening. As a former theologian, and still a follower of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I see the Driscoll cult for what is is…”The People of the Lie”.. The majority of the members are certainly, well-intentioned Christians, but the leadership are representatives of a power we are to fear. Don’t underestimate his power to harm and destroy families. Jim Jones, David Koresh and many others before them were dismissed as freaks and not addressed until it was too late for their cult followers. Mark Driscoll is not a man of God and does not represent Christianity. Mark Driscoll is a False Prophet.

  11. David says:

    If there are no list or rules to follow then why do you keep pointing to one?
    Simply because you don’t call it law but Gospel does not change the meaning you have applied.
    The Gospel has become your rules, procedures, instructions and directions.
    If it looks like a law, swims like a law, and quacks like a law and you call it Gospel does that mean its not a law?

  12. Another pilgrim says:

    Thank you very much for the time you’ve taken to reply to my questions. It does appear that you have very strong feelings on this subject but my perplexity revolves around how does he exert so much influence world-wide. Here in South Africa- as I’ve intimated previously – a church established for over 100 years and a leading light – now sends young pastors for training under Driscol !?!?!
    He has a huge influence on my own Pastor who has now steered our church into Driscol’s Acts29 mold.

  13. Another pilgrim – my pleasure to be of service. May the Lord be our wisdom and keep us from error, for the glory of His name!

  14. David – the gospel is not a law and I don’t present it as such. It is Truth and anyone who proclaims a way of being reconciled to God apart from the biblical gospel is to be accursed – have you not read the letter to the church in Galatia? In chapter 1, the Apostle wrote (as inspired by God),

    “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

    10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.”
    Gal 1:6-10 (ESV)

    Truth matters – if you want to consider the biblical command to stick to the biblical gospel a law, then who am I to argue?

  15. David says:

    I’m simply pointing to the fact that just because you don’t call a law does not mean it’s not.
    Hence you do not follow this law your accursed.

  16. Another pilgrim says:

    HOBO
    I’d thanked Manfred previously for his help and my comments of 1:39 pm (above) were directed at you..
    Both you and Manfred have been of great help.
    I am still searching for D’s sermon on the Song of Solomon delivered first in Scotland I believe and for examples that earned him the nickname of Cussing Pastor.

  17. Rev Limiter says:

    Outstanding post and a very accurate list of false teachers!
    I’ve been around a long time and have watched as these pied pipers send scores of folks ..off.. to get saved before they have any idea that they are lost! They peddle the precious gospel with a milquetoast mentality as not to offend those who have already offended God! These men inform the lost that the world’s possessions they desire are as close as their “seed faith check” and once they release it by faith they’ll realize the “peace and joy and prosperity” they so desperately long for but are unable to attain!
    That is not the gospel!!!
    People are sinners and they need to understand and admit this very thing before salvation is possible!
    Repentance, along with faith is mandatory if one is to be saved!
    Now, the real bottom line with all these guys (and a few women) is just this; follow the money trail!!!

  18. Linda says:

    Amen.

    I remember when I was first saved and I’d go to the library at our Church.. We have a very godly woman who works there. Anyways, I didn’t realize how important it is in being a librarian. In being one who needs to be aware of what books are heretical teachings and which are not.

    Now I understand how important it is to critique books and know the current status of false teachers.

    When I was saved back in1997 we did (Beth Moore)Studies. I would NOT recommend her now for SURE. But I mention her as an example of one who was okay for a time and then went bad. It’s always a never-ending job to keep up with the current movements that are rife.

    Thanks for the example of what we all should do and thank you so much for this Blog that helps those who might not have the time on their hands to keep us abreast~

  19. Bo says:

    Hobo,

    You wrote:
    “We don’t live in a culture where one income can support large families.”

    Are large families with one income the problem, or is it that believers are lusting after and addicted to the ungodly culture we live in? Are we in the world, but not of it, or do we love the world and the things in the world? Lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and the pride of life might be the real problem. If well to do believers shared generously with the poor ones instead of trusting in riches and having an evil eye toward their brothers, would the story be different? When believers go into debt on houses, cars, furniture, vacations, etc., instead of living a simple life that resists material lust and prestige, what do we expect to be the outcome? Debt service is mammon service and we cannot serve YHWH and mammon.

    Psalm 127
    3 Behold, children are a heritage from the LORD, the fruit of the womb a reward.
    4 Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one’s youth.
    5 Blessed is the man who fills his quiver with them! He shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate.

    Proverbs 22
    6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
    7 The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.

    Deuteronomy 28
    15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee…
    32 Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long: and there shall be no might in thine hand…
    41 Thou shalt beget sons and daughters, but thou shalt not enjoy them; for they shall go into captivity…
    43 The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low.
    44 He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.

    Have you seen the poll results about believers children denying the faith when they go off to college? Two income families are not conducive to training children properly whether there are 1.2 average children or a full quiver of 13. Why do we think that children are a curse and restrict the number and also think that debt is a blessing and apply for loans so that we can lavish material blessings upon ourselves? The scripture says the opposite. Children are a blessing. Dept is a curse. I guess we should let the Muslims have large families and we should continue in the American way so that we won’t be able to speak with our enemies in the gate on the fatal day that Shariah law is instituted.

    We apply for slavery when we take out a loan. We have made ourselves slaves. Slave wages are probably not enough to raise a large family. Is it the children’s fault? Is the scripture wrong? We have abandoned a scriptural lifestyle, and are reaping the harvest.

    I wonder why there are so many large home school families that somehow make ends meet on one income and also have to pay of educational materials, but the two income small family that gets free public education is having their home foreclosed on. I wonder why the home school families have a better success rate in academics and have a small percentage of children that leave the faith. I wonder if when the Son of Man returns if He will find faith on the earth.

    2 Timothy 2
    2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

    I do not know anything about the false teacher that you are speaking of, but maybe he is not that far off on the idea of a one income large family, though he be off on all others. Maybe we are guilty of the sin of mixture when we try to mix modern cultural norms with Biblical faith. If our field does not produce a pure crop that has seed that can reproduce itself again, maybe our hybrid lifestyle is to blame and not the scripture’s ideals.

    Leviticus 19
    18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
    19 Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed:

    Deuteronomy 22
    9 Thou shalt not sow thy vineyard with divers seeds: lest the fruit of thy seed which thou hast sown, and the fruit of thy vineyard, be defiled.

    Are we loving our neighbors as ourselves when we allow our little neighbors (our children) to be mingled with unbelievers in school? Is our mingled seed of the ideas and philosophies of the world and the Bible producing a heritage for YHWH or a defiled harvest?

    Are large families a curse? Are children a curse? Or have we cursed ourselves by having close associations with nonbelievers and not training our children but leaving the job to baby sitters and teachers?

    Numbers 23
    8 How shall I curse, whom God hath not cursed? or how shall I defy, whom the LORD hath not defied?

    Numbers 31
    16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

    Revelation 2
    14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication…
    16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

    Balaam could not curse YHWH’s people, but they brought curses upon themselves by fornicating with idolaters. Will we take up the sword of YHWH’s word and repent or will He have to fight against us with the sword of HIs mouth?

    Shalom

  20. Another pilgrim says:

    Linda
    From what I learn from Manfred and HOBO it would be just a possibility that the little piece of real estate on which part of the Church is situated that I attend is drifting off course; the Pastor is a Driscoll fan and the ladies are all into Beth Moore studies !!!.
    I am very interested to know why (and how) you consider that Moore “went bad”; I’ve tried to find out about her but found next to nothing on the net; could you or anyone out there assist.

    Manfred
    Thanks for those links will check them out soonest.

  21. At my spin class (cycling in place as exercise) class early this morning, one lady asked the other if she had read the Joyce Meyer book she had given her. I cringed..but I clammed up and didn’t know what to say to them. If I claim she is heretical and why, often people will think I am trying to be a self-righteous know-it-all;.Manfred, can you maybe suggest a way to warn others correctly?

  22. David,

    You said “Hence you do not follow this law your accursed.” As Manfred has already stated, the Gospel is not a law. When false teachers preach a gospel that differs from the one found in God’s word, they are accursed. The true biblical Gospel is a command, not a law, to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ; God does not give sinners an ultimatum.
    If you do not believe on the Lord Jesus, you will face Him in judgment and spend eternity separated from Him.

    Lyn

  23. Katy – what I am still learning to do is ask questions, rather than begin by telling :-) I would ask the person what about Joyce Meyer’s teaching does she find “good” and why, how does she it lining up with the big picture in the Bible? Proof texting with people almost never resolves anything – we must peel back to one’s presuppositions to see why they interpret the proof text the way they do.

    Later on in the conversation, you may very well have a reasonable opportunity to declare something Meyer teaches as heresy – but stay focused on the teaching, not the person.

  24. David says:

    Lyn, the definition of a law is a command backed up by a threat.

    Lyn have you ever studied law. Please look up Austin’s command theory.

  25. Another pilgrim says:

    David
    May I be allowed to enter this exchange with you?
    I’m no theologian and am a long way behind Manfred and all the other stalwarts on this site but here’s by twopence worth which reflects more or less my understanding.
    Moses received the 10 Commandments and these were undoubtedly LAW as are many other Laws in Scripture.
    God is a holy, righteous God and man has strayed far from His ordained ways – actually is in total rebellion and there is none that are excluded. Not one. We are a treasonous breed and we all know the penalty for treason. All men stand thus condemned. But it is recorded that God so loved us nonetheless that He sent His only Son Christ to our help.
    But God to be Holy and Righteous must also be JUST couldn’t therefore merely shrug of man’s culpability and so in a way that we’ll probably only understand when we get to meet God one day – and we all will – Christ took the punishment for all we had done and continue to do, this on your behalf …
    and mine ..
    and countless others.
    All that is required is that we believe that Christ died for our doings – He took the robes we should be wearing and gave us His and so we can enter into God’s presence with confidence clothed, not in our own righteousness but in Christ’s.
    If we don’t accept this (and it’s NOT an ultimatum) we merely just continue going where we were destined to go if Christ had not intervened. That Christ took the “rap: for us as some less reverent ones would say, is the Gospel or in plain English, the Good News.
    You see we’re offered a way out, if we don’t take it that’s our problem, not God’s but in His loving kindness and mercy He did give us that way out.
    Does this help in any way David?.

  26. David says:

    So Another Pilgrim – is where we are destined to go not a warning or threat of a consequence?
    Is there a right choice and a wrong choice?
    If you can answer no. Then it’s not a law.
    Does this help?

  27. Bo says:

    Hobo,

    You wrote:
    “We don’t live in a culture where one income can support large families.”

    Are large families with one income the problem, or is it that believers are lusting after and addicted to the ungodly culture we live in? Are we in the world, but not of it, or do we love the world and the things in the world? Lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and the pride of life might be the real problem. If well to do believers shared generously with the poor ones instead of trusting in riches and having an evil eye toward their brothers, would the story be different? When believers go into debt on houses, cars, furniture, vacations, etc., instead of living a simple life that resists material lust and prestige, what do we expect to be the outcome? Debt service is mammon service and we cannot serve YHWH and mammon.

    Psalm 127
    3 Behold, children are a heritage from the LORD, the fruit of the womb a reward.
    4 Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one’s youth.
    5 Blessed is the man who fills his quiver with them! He shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate.

    Proverbs 22
    6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
    7 The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.

    Deuteronomy 28
    15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee…
    32 Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long: and there shall be no might in thine hand…
    41 Thou shalt beget sons and daughters, but thou shalt not enjoy them; for they shall go into captivity…
    43 The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low.
    44 He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.

    Have you seen the poll results about believer’s children denying the faith when they go off to college? Two income families are not conducive to training children properly whether there are 1.2 average children or a full quiver of 13. Why do we think that children are a curse and restrict the number and also think that debt is a blessing and apply for loans so that we can lavish material blessings upon ourselves? The scripture says the opposite. Children are a blessing. Dept is a curse. I guess we should let the Muslims have large families and we should continue in the American way so that we won’t be able to speak with our enemies in the gate on the fatal day that Shariah law is instituted.

    We apply for slavery when we take out a loan. We have made ourselves slaves. Slave wages are probably not enough to raise a large family. Is it the children’s fault? Is the scripture wrong? We have abandoned a scriptural lifestyle, and are reaping the harvest.

    I wonder why there are so many large home school families that somehow make ends meet on one income and also have to pay of educational materials, but the two income small family that gets free public education is having their home foreclosed on. I wonder why the home school families have a better success rate in academics and have a small percentage of children that leave the faith. I wonder if when the Son of Man returns if He will find faith on the earth.

    2 Timothy 2
    2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

    I do not know anything about the false teacher that you are speaking of, but maybe he is not that far off on the idea of a one income large family, though he be off on all others. Maybe we are guilty of the sin of mixture when we try to mix modern cultural norms with Biblical faith. If our field does not produce a pure crop that has seed that can reproduce itself again, maybe our hybrid lifestyle is to blame and not the scripture’s ideals.

    Leviticus 19
    18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
    19 Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed…

    Deuteronomy 22
    9 Thou shalt not sow thy vineyard with divers seeds: lest the fruit of thy seed which thou hast sown, and the fruit of thy vineyard, be defiled.

    Are we loving our neighbors as ourselves when we allow our little neighbors (our children) to be mingled with unbelievers in school? Is our mingled seed of the ideas and philosophies of the world and the Bible producing a heritage for YHWH or a defiled harvest?

    Are large families a curse? Are children a curse? Or have we cursed ourselves by having close associations with nonbelievers and not training our children but leaving the job to baby sitters and teachers?

    Numbers 23
    8 How shall I curse, whom God hath not cursed? or how shall I defy, whom the LORD hath not defied?

    Numbers 31
    16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

    Revelation 2
    14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication…
    16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

    Balaam could not curse YHWH’s people, but they brought curses upon themselves by fornicating with idolaters. Will we take up the sword of YHWH’s word and repent or will He have to fight against us with the sword of HIs mouth?

    Shalom

  28. @David, Maybe part of the problem here is the definition of “Gospel”. To understand your position better, can you define these two so we can see if we are talking apples to apples:

    1. What is the Gospel?
    2. What is a false teacher?

    @Another Pilgrim, I agree with what the others are saying…if your pastor is becoming a huge Driscoll fan then there are problems there. He might not be aware of the problems in Driscoll’s methods and his distinctiveness. I wouldn’t attend a church that was Driscoll driven. Ditto for Beth Moore, of course. Both of them have some things that would be beneficial, but the overall picture puts them in the dangerous column for me. I would also like to point out that any church that focuses on the movement and influence of some other pastor is probably in danger of being off course. Our churches should be intent on following Christ, and not another man’s theology as if that man is our lord. We of course are all influence greatly by other teachers and theologians, but the church shouldn’t have a focus on a particular man.

    In the Love of Christ,
    -atg

  29. michael says:

    Manfred,

    You write in this thread posted in here: “…She found some material that looked questionable and asked me to help her figure out which authors should be put in the closet on the “heresy shelf”.”

    I see no reason to shield those false teachings and books from the disciples, putting them in a closet as you seem to imply with those words?

    The Apostle Paul taught:
    2Co 2:11 so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs.

    There also is an interesting verse from Hebrews 6 that indicates the powers of God are at work in bringing one into a full discernment of what is good and evil. In light of the entire chapter 5 and the first two verses of chapter 6 I find this verse an indicator that the more mature among us have our work cut out for us in making clear to the immature the Truth without putting false teachers and their books in the closet. We should, over time as we grow up in Christ to be mature learn from false teachers and their writings, should we not?

    Here is the verse from Hebrews 6 that seems to indicate the work True Shepherds of His Faith do on any given day:

    Heb 6:3 And this we will do if God permits.

    What needs to be understood, it seems, is the work strong men of His Faith are called upon to do on behalf of the weak of His Faith among us as is indicated here with these two citations:

    Rom 15:1 We who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
    Rom 15:2 Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up.
    Rom 15:3 For Christ did not please himself, but as it is written, “The reproaches of those who reproached you fell on me.”
    Rom 15:4 For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
    Rom 15:5 May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus,
    Rom 15:6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    Rom 15:7 Therefore welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you, for the glory of God.
    …………………………………………………………………………Gal 6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.
    Gal 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
    Gal 6:3 For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
    Gal 6:4 But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor.
    Gal 6:5 For each will have to bear his own load.

    I believe it is important to lead disciples into the Truth. The Truth has a component to it where we learn about the devil and how he operates in the world among the Sheep. Clearly we learn from Scripture both the evil and the good, both that wolves ply their faith with among the ignorant and novices and what True Shepherds ply as well? It is the job of a good shepherd anointed by Thee Good Shepherd to feed the lambs and tend the sheep until we all come into a unity of the Faith!

    Joh 21:15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” …………………………………….Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
    Eph 4:14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.
    Eph 4:15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,
    Eph 4:16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

    I leave off my observations about your words, both the post and the follow up comments to others in here with these Words from Romans 3 and 1 Timothy, too, seeing there seems to be a disagreement about the Gospel becoming a law work among us:

    Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
    Rom 3:30 since God is one–who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
    Rom 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law. …………………………………………………1Ti 1:5 The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
    1Ti 1:6 Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion,
    1Ti 1:7 desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.
    1Ti 1:8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
    1Ti 1:9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers,
    1Ti 1:10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,
    1Ti 1:11 in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.

    As we can learn from those Scriptures and many more there is a proper use of the “Law” and the “Gospel” as both law to be applied in our daily life and as Gospel that brings us to an active life in His Faith which brings about the salvation of our soul!

    I have to agree that David makes a good point. I guess the question that concerns me is this. Is David with his good point a good and true Teacher of both the Law and Gospel or is he false?

    Apparently from reading your words it isn’t clear to me what you believe about him?

  30. Another pilgrim says:

    David,

    I am terrified that if I take this further I will tread on the theological corns of the much more learned friends on this site :-) :-) or very much worse mislead you; nevertheless venturing where angels would fear to tread I’ll proceed.
    I believe that God is perfectly Holy, Perfectly Righteous and Perfectly Just among His other attributes (This I believe and if it were not so He wouldn’t be God, would He).
    Man on the other hand has a propensity for wrong and is in a state of rebellion against God’s rule and such treachery requires punishment even amongst us as mankind.
    We, notwithstanding the evidence of our eyes that we have a Holy, Loving God tend towards what we intrinsically know is wrong and head for our just deserts.
    Now you rightly speak of consequences and I don’t know if you have children or not but don’t you tell youngsters that life is but a litany of consequences? Whatever we do, say or decide has consequences either for good or bad. I cannot off-hand think of a single thing that I could do, say or decide which won’t have a consequence either good or bad. The Bible describes it as a sowing and a reaping.
    Our persistent rebellion or wrong doing has the inevitable consequence of punishment. Now that you must agree is a given.
    What is not a given is that a God of love and mercy and kindness should allow His own Son to take the consequences for our rebellion and all we have to do is open our ears and eyes and in gratitude and acceptance say “This I believe was done” in order that we may enjoy forever the mercy, love and forbearance of a God of infinite love and infinite mercy (There is a bit to add about repentance but that’s a separate issue for now). Sure, that is a consequence of our accepting Christ, but what are the consequences of your own child accepting a priceless gift, given with unspeakable love by you?.
    To me it is indeed Good News (The Gospel) and most certainly never, ever law.
    May I suggest that you take time out from this site and go off and read the Gospel of John right through in one sitting and then within a day read it again with a little more thought and then again in the same period really study it.
    After that visit us again with your thoughts.
    Go well brother.

  31. Michael – I have no idea what you are trying to communicate, especially with the reference to Hebrews 6:3. Regarding your question to me about David – I do not know him and do not have an answer for you.

  32. Rev Limiter says:

    Michael wrote:
    “I see no reason to shield those false teachings and books from the disciples, putting them in a closet as you seem to imply with those words?”

    I’ll try to be as simple as possible.
    Why should anybody spent time reading heresy when they could be studying something beneficial? When you’re familiar with the “real thing,” a counterfeit is easy to spot!

  33. David says:

    Thank you, Michael for you long in depth answer using Scripture.
    Manfred is correct in that he does not know me since this is my first time commenting on his blogs.
    My purpose for commenting here was to show that unless we have a clear definition of law based on our current society we as Christian will appear as if we’re not functioning with the full capacity of our brains.
    I think most of our differences would be resolved if we simply knew each other definition of words.

  34. Rev Limiter says:

    Michael:
    This verse just came to mind:
    “I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.” Rom. 16:17

    Hope this helps!

  35. David i think your choice of the word law or rule is what is causing the problem as many false prophets even at the time of Paul were trying to put the “Law” back into the Gospel. Abraham was saved by faith hundreds of years before the Law came in with Moses as was Noah. Its easy to play semantics with the words “right and wrong” and to swap the word “right” or righteous with the word “rule or law” but this is to miss the spiritual point. The laws and rules of Moses were for the flesh not for the heart or spirit. Jesus both fulfills and trancends the Law to go beyond the flesh to the spirit as no flesh can please God. Jesus gives the example of having hate and anger in your heart as “spiritual murder” when comparing this to the law for the flesh that thou shalt not kill. This is not a law or rule but a spiritual truth. If you reduce this to merley following a rule or a law you bring it back to the flesh again and are missing the spiritual lesson. With regard to your last point, we are not here to please society and to follow its ways but God’s How society views us is not our problem and should not concern us as long as we are being faithful to God. The NT was the same 2000 years ago as it is today so we don’t have do anything to define “law based on current society” The teachings of the NT tell us all we need to know about the spiritual difference between law and grace, the flesh and the spirit I try my best to obey God and Jesus not because its law or rule that i do so but because Jesus is the the truth and want to obey truth and the holy spirit i hope would prompt me to do so if am saved. Can’t you see the difference between doing something becuase its the right thing to do, the holy thing, the righteous thing to do, coming from the holy ghost, from the heart and spirit and the objective truth of God rather than follwing a rule or a law from the flesh?

  36. michael says:

    Rev. Limiter

    I had these verses in mind and if one takes what David is pointing out to Manfred and us, one could easily see that the things we learn and receive, hear and see and then practice from others as lawful and abiding. The Gospel, in a sense, is Law. It is “how” the practice of the Law of Righteousness is practiced that counts.

    The clear distinction has to go to what God is doing by transforming our lowly bodies to be conformed to and reconciled with His Glorious Body!

    Php 3:17 Brothers, join in imitating me, and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us.
    Php 3:18 For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ.
    Php 3:19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things.
    Php 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
    Php 3:21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself. ………………………………………………….Php 4:9 What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me–practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.

  37. HOBO says:

    Bo,
    Thank you for your thoughtful reply to my comments. I don’t believe large families on one income are the problem either. I grew up in a family of eight with a one income parent model as most in the 50′s and 60′s were back then. The problem is the pulpit ministers preaching that it is a requirement to have lots of kids and only one working parent, which also is absolutely to be the male parent. Mothers are required to be the stay-at-home parent by this distortion of the scripture.
    I agree with you that the culture of spending into personal debt is out of control and our young people are destroying themselves by worshiping that culture. That said, the ones who barely live within their means and continue to push children into this world at a pace they can’t afford, because a “pastor” has perverted scripture and told them it’s their duty as Christians, are victims of his twisted preaching.

    A pastor from the Driscoll, Mars Hill cult met with our children and told them our daughter’s duty was to drop out of nursing school, and have babies. She was told her place was in the home rather than the career world, and it was her husband’s duty to be the provider. With her income potential as a surgical nurse being nearly unlimited, and her husband’s income potential very limited, the obvious choice for their family was for him to be a stay-at-home Dad. But….that is absolutely not acceptable to the Driscoll cult. So..our kids are drowning and both sets of grandparents, are supporting them.

    Mark Driscoll’s Taliban style of controlling Women has raised the bar in Misogyny. During a discussion in our kitchen one night, my wife and I were in disagreement on an issue and our seven year old Grandson blurted out “Papa, you are over Nana, just tell her what to do!”

    Our hearts sank when we realized that our beautiful grandchildren were already being indoctrinated into the misogynistic cult beliefs spewed forth by this false teacher. These beliefs are not spiritual ideals but rather, perversions of spiritual ideals and Mark Driscoll is using his mastery of social media and the internet to spread his cult beliefs world-wide. He specifically appeals to young men who feel empowered by these teachings. Women are the victims.

    If Jim Jones and David Koresch had had access to electronic media, many more members of their cults would have perished with them.

    My prayer is that all of you will continue your search for truth, and educate yourselves and your family and friends about all the false teachers Manfred has included in his list. By the way…the picture at the top of this blog, with the sheep, is an accurate depiction of Driscoll and false prophets like him. Thank you, Manfred for that powerful photo.

  38. michael says:

    Rev. Limiter,

    “Why should anybody spent time reading heresy when they could be studying something beneficial? When you’re familiar with the “real thing,” a counterfeit is easy to spot!”

    Yes, I quite agree with that, that is, for those who are novices but as we go onto maturity things are seemingly more difficult to have our senses continually exercised to discern between good and evil.

    Apparently making that distinction is not so easy as we learn from the writings of Luke about Paul as witnessed in the book of Acts chapter 20:

    Act 20:29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
    Act 20:30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.

    The question for me is this one: “how did the Apostle Paul know those two things, one, wolves would come in and two, from their own selves men would arise?”

    Jesus Himself gave this response to the disciples about tares being among the wheat during the great harvest:

    Mat 13:24 He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field,
    Mat 13:25 but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away.
    Mat 13:26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also.
    Mat 13:27 And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’
    Mat 13:28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’
    Mat 13:29 But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them.
    Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’”

    Maybe we are just to quick to judge another who seems to not be bearing the fruit of the Gospel?

    I take some consolation from these Words from Romans, too:

    Rom 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
    …………………………………………………………………….Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
    Rom 14:13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.

    Anyway, Manfred has done us all a service by posting this thought provoking post about false teachers!

  39. Rev Limiter says:

    Michael:
    I don’t understand your point! Philippines 3: 18-19 is discussing the enemies of Christ.

    If I’m not mistaken, this thread was started to alert everyone as to the danger of “false teachers.” It’s always a good thing to be reminded of topics such as this.
    As I said before, when you know the truth it’s easy to spot a counterfeit.
    I won’t be able to respond till tomorrow but will leave that in the capable hands of others!

  40. David says:

    The illusion that Gospel has not become your new law is that God can not tolerate a wrong choice.
    Hence you are confined by this.

  41. David – to whom is your comment of 1:55 directed? If to me, I do not understand your presupposition. You make an assertion without substantiation. Difficult to know what you’re trying to accomplish.

  42. David,
    Gospel means ‘good news’. The law of God, the ten commandments, is His perfect standard that no man can keep. This should point the sinner to the good news of Christ and His finished work on the cross. There is no ‘threat’ as you state concerning the good news for sinners who believe what Christ has done as propitiation for sin. You do not understand God’s holiness, which is why He must punish sin. Is that a threat? Hardly. We are all worthy of judgment and hell because of what WE have done, not because God makes threats. You are a sinner as I am, and you have done nothing except sin against God and His word your entire life. God, in His mercy, has sacrificed His sinless, perfect Son so as to reconcile sinners back to Himself. This isn’t a threat, this is the best news there is. God does command us to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ so we may have eternal life, why would you classify this as a threat?

  43. Michael,
    Heretical books should be kept out of plain site – in public places such as church libraries or in homes – lest casual observers see them and think ye endorse heresy or not know the books are bad and take them as good and get deceived. Those who are mature and want to read them should be given access on a case by case basis.

  44. michael says:

    Manfred,

    let the record reflect I concur with what you wrote there about heretical books and keeping them in prudence not novelty as to bring the wrong impression upon those weak of Faith among us.

    I think I said it before but I will say it again, thank you for bringing this thought provoking and beware of warning topic in here about false teachers.

  45. David says:

    Manfred is God not capable in knowing that the one’s being deceived by these false teachers would have chosen otherwise?

  46. David – God knows all things, in all times, and works His will in all circumstances in all people in every era of creation. No fallen man has absolute freedom of will – everyone’s will is bent toward sin and the person is unable to choose that which pleases God unless the Spirit of God regenerates him and implants the Gospel in his soul and raises him up to new life in Christ. Then – and not before – is man able to choose good. Anyone can be deceived – which is why the Scripture commands God’s people to test all things and hold to that which is good. But unregenerate man is particularly susceptible to being deceived about spiritual matters. All of this is in accordance with what the sovereign Ruler of all creation determines.

  47. Davidkent says:

    HOBO you need to fall back, son. You are WAY out of order. I don’t know and don’t care why you have a vendetta against Driscoll, but you need to shut your mouth. I am very familiar with him and he absolutely does not teach anything remotely similar to what you are accusing him of. Making this man out to be some kind of Antichrist because you don’t like his personality is just ridiculous and pitiful. Shame on you, you buffoon.

    And ignore David. He’s obviously a troll.

  48. David says:

    Manfred, since the sovereign Ruler of all creation determines all things then this conversation is of no use for presupposing another outcome is impossible. Peace be with you.

  49. HOBO says:

    Good morning Davidkent,
    Thank you for your attempt at defending Mr. Driscoll, lame as it was. I won’t waste space on this important Blog, taking shots at other respondents but I will be happy to address your eloquently articulated comments. My “vendetta” against this false teacher has nothing to do with my opinion of his personality and everything to do with the destructive path he is leading young people down, including members of my family. Had you read and actually experienced the pain I expressed in this blog, you would not have exposed yourself as shallow by attacking with words like ridiculous, pitiful, and buffoon, and “shut your mouth”. I believe you addressed another respondent as a troll. And unless you are in your 80′s, Davidkent, you have neither the chronilogical age, nor life experience to address a Grandfather as “son”. Though the attempt at self appointed authority was a bit elementary, it was not unlike a follower of Driscoll to try.
    Being a false teacher doesn’t make Driscoll or anyone else an Antichrist, as you put it, but his self aggrandizing, narcissistic circus has to be exposed to limit the damage to gullible young people. And…I am very familiar with Mark as well sir. I hold no ill will toward you or any other gullible followers of Driscoll and pray for all of you every day. I also pray for Mark. He has the uncanny ability to attract followers and it would be a blessing to see him lead them to our Lord and not to himself. Have a good day sir, and God Bless you.

  50. Hey Manfred, you goin’ to Joel’s “church” this weekend down there in ‘Yoo-ston’ to confirm that the vast majority of the people there are, indeed, enjoying their best life now? After all, it REALLY is their best life now – since most, if not all, won’t be in Heaven. Talk about a purveyor of falsehood, whew!

  51. todd – I have a dear brother in my church who was in Joel’s “church”. He goes there from time-to-time to tell them the Truth as they joyfully skip into the heresy center. I have friends who think too highly of Joel that I speak to about Christ; their view is too often self-centered; which is what Joel teaches. Don’t forget we also have Cirque de Shook close by, in “The Church of the Woodlands.” Enough to gag a maggot off a gut wagon.

  52. Amen. We HAVE to be alert.
    Just these days we got confronted – again – with a more and more popular “point of view” regarding “Allah”, as represented by a popular German evangelical- “emerging” teacher like Johannes Reimer (http://www.reimer-ministries.com/allah-der-gott-der-bibel/).
    Good to have others, too, who are helping us giving some insight, in order to recognize some of the “woof” folks (see:
    (a) http://jesaja662.wordpress.com/2012/06/15/is-allah-identical-with-the-god-of-our-bible/
    (b) http://www.sastra-hidup.net/satu-tuhan-satu-jalan/finish/1-satu-tuhan-satu-jalan-apa-yang-harus-anda-tahu/6-names-and-terms-for-god-in-translations-helmi-berkah

    Reblogged this on jesaja 66:2 und kommentierte:
    Some important reminders from a friend.

  53. Jesaja 66:2, Many thanks for stopping by, and providing the links to documents showing the dangers and lies behind the use of Allah in Arabic translations. I quit supporting the Bible League because they started doing just this. Blessings in Christ.

  54. Bo says:

    Hobo,

    I am sorry for your being hurt by this situation with your children. It is difficult to watch things go wrong, even if it is only in our view, to those we love. I had a very close friend (Pete) that joined a cult that basically made slaves of the members. It was a commune with one man basically being the dictator. Pete was there for about 10 years and now has finally come out. He is attempting to put his life back together, starting from zero. The crazy thing about it is that I had another friend that had come out of a similar cult. He told me, when this was beginning, that I probably wouldn’t be able to stop the inevitable and that I should allow it to run its course because that is what it would take to prove to Pete that what he had done was wrong and that Pete wouldn’t be able to see and learn the lesson without experiencing the hardship and disillusion. I didn’t like the idea at all, but he was right. Sometimes we cannot accept wisdom from others. It is sad but true.

    As far as your view of and accusation of misogyny, I am not sure that you haven’t misunderstood the situation. Our culture has been brainwashed with women’s liberation propaganda. There is a difference between sexism and aligning our lives according to the roles that scripture proclaims for men and women. We live in a different world than the Bible writers did, but we need to be careful not to throw out baby with the bath water.

    Certain (maybe most) scriptures can only mean what they mean. There is no interpretive process that can correctly massage those scriptures into our postmodern culture’s wrong ideas. They are simply at odds philosophically. I do not think that we should wear robes and only ride camels, but the scripture does indicate that the wife should obey her husband. That husband has the responsibility to love his wife sacrificially, but if one or the other party is not doing his or her part, it does not make the other party’s obligation null and void. The 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s and their cultural ideas and ideals are not the glasses that we should read the scripture through. We should evaluate the ideas and philosphies of our time by the scripture.

    Though no one is to lord it over another, children are to honor and obey their parents and wives are to obey their husbands, and husbands are to obey Messiah. There is plenty of room for interaction and appeals to our authorities to adjust their decision, but in the end someone has to step up and take responsibility to make the decision. Our humble acceptance is sometimes difficult, but it is appropriate. The husband is accountable to Yahweh for the decisions he makes. Those under a man’s care and authority are accountable to Yahweh for their actions concerning the man’s leadership. Please consider the following passages:

    Genesis 2
    18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

    1 Corinthians 11
    3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
    4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
    5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
    6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
    7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
    8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
    9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
    10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

    1 Timothy 2
    11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
    12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
    13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
    14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
    15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

    1 Corinthians 14
    32 And the prophets’ spirits are under the control of the prophets,
    33 since God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
    As in all the churches of the saints,
    34 the women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says.
    35 And if they want to learn something, they should ask their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church meeting.
    36 Did the word of God originate from you, or did it come to you only?
    37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, he should recognize that what I write to you is the Lord’s command.
    38 But if anyone ignores this, he will be ignored.

    We are not to listen to those that think that they have a better idea about this. Yahweh has designed things to be done according to a certain order. Who are we to decide differently? The reason given for the woman’s subjection, and symbol thereof (head veil), is not culture but the woman’s created purpose and nature. It is an ordinance, something that ought to be done, not a cultural practice of Paul’s time. The woman was made for the man and not vice versa. It doesn’t make the woman less important, just with a different role and a different head/authority. The woman should be very important to her husband. Even Messiah was called to be under authority. He did not do His own thing, but submitted to the will of His Father. If the husband asks his wife to work outside the home or stay home, she should help him by doing as he asks. It is not our society or our culture that should decide this for her. If he asks her to bear a few or many children, it is her created duty to obey. Our society or culture, even our church culture, has no right or authority in this matter. The husband should make his decisions concerning his family, and especially his wife, thoughtfully and humbly in submission to Messiah and according to the teaching of scripture.

    1 Peter 3
    1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
    2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
    3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
    4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
    5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
    6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
    7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
    8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
    9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

    Even a woman with an unbelieving or rebellious husband is supposed to keep to the role that Yahweh has designed for her. And in all of this, the man is to honor her and not treat her as a doormat. I have never known a wife that did not want to serve and obey a husband that honored and cherished her by being careful not to overload her with things too heavy for her as a weaker vessel. Encourage your children in these things. It will produce good fruit. Do not exasperate them and turn them away by harsh judgments concerning their lifestyle and decisions, whether immature or not, concerning their walk of faith.

    Colossians 3
    21 Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.

    Ephesians 6
    4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

    Your daughter and son in law are to continue to honor you, but now that they are grown and are supposed to leave their fathers and mothers, they are accountable to Yahweh as a new family unit. As you probably remember, it is not easy to get everything right. It may be that you should withdraw your financial support, while continuing to give them loving, emotional and spiritual support. This may be difficult to watch them suffer, but it might be the correct thing to do for them in the long run. If you are supporting them financially so that you will not alienate them or so that you can continue to have sway in their lives, it is manipulation and fear that you are operating from. It will backfire and/or destroy your relationship with them and/or theirs with each other. Let them stand or fall on their own so that they will learn to walk. It is a tough issue and a tough decision. Bailouts only help those that are convinced of their error and are committed to doing things differently.

    You can continue to help by babysitting, and strengthening their efforts with their children. You can give practical gifts like clothing and such. Please don’t do anything that will cause your grandchildren to question their parent’s wisdom or authority or love. Be careful in this regard with your daughter toward her husband also. The more you strengthen your daughter’s family and help its oneness, the more you will have sway in helping guide them. The more you exert pressure and/or manipulate them, the less positive effect you will have on them and your relationship with them.

    Asking your son in law honest questions about his beliefs and goals for his family and really caring and listening to the answers, without offering much correction, will help both of you. Helping him meet the goals and encouraging the beliefs that you share will only bring blessing. Judgmental words and actions will only bring resentment. The more you help him row his boat, the more you likely you will be asked to steer it on occasion.

    I hope this helps.

    Shalom

  55. doreen says:

    Hello Manfred,
    As a total aside to what this post is about, it is what you said about 5ptsalt. It is pointless going on the website. On more than one occasion, I have noticed comments I have posted, have not been made visible online. They were not life changing comments, or anything like that, but I suppose he knew best why he didn’t post them.

    Recently, he had a post about ‘Do Angels Sing?’. My reply was, who cares if angels sing or not. And I quoted the scripture in Zephaniah 3:17, ‘…He will rejoice over you with singing.’

    It wasn’t posted, and will not be. But I don’t truly care about that either. You just wonder how many other comments have not been posted, due to his own ego.

    Well, that’s it. A bit doom and gloom, but the website is not worth the visit.

    Take care.

  56. doreen – I still take a look at what Joel posts at 5ptsalt but rarely comment. Last time I commented, I encouraged him on a post and pointed out a typo he made. He deleted my comment about the typo, made that correction, and allowed the rest of my comment to post. I think that’s the last effort I will make over there.

    Let all the blood-bought saints of the living God walk humbly before God and man, seeking earnestly to honor the Lord and fear no man.

  57. Hello, I am looking for the file that you had linked in your post, but it appears to not be there anymore.
    Is there any way I can get it?
    Thanks~
    Jon

  58. David – thanks for the note. The server I had used back then has gone dark. The link in the original article now points to a valid location.

  59. Jim says:

    We need to stop reading so called Christian books bc in those books are some truth mixed with some lies. “What hath Light to do with darkness.” These books are what cause disunity and false teaching and God’s word is the only Christian book we all need to read and heed!

  60. I disagree with you, Jim. Just as we are commanded to gather together for instruction, etc. good books (none of which are perfect) can be very useful in building up the saints in their faith. Some books are wretched and the child of God needs to develop discernment.

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