Martial law and Romans 13.

How far is Romans 13:1-3 meant to be taken?

There’s no denying that the government’s reach and control grows larger every day, individual  rights continue to erode, and the framework for the persecution of the church is being laid. So, does Romans 13 mean Christians are to unquestionably collude and cooperate with their coming persecutors?

Here is a brief news clip to spur the conversation (debate). I look forward to reading the discussion.

Romans 13:1-3

“Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;”

96 thoughts on “Martial law and Romans 13.

  1. I’d say the constitution is one of the authorities God has instituted. Most officials take a pledge to uphold the constitution.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  2. We are to obey the government EXCEPT for when it forbids us from doing what the Bible commands us do or requires us do what the Bible forbids.

    This sermon examines Romans 13:1-4 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/25639766/Romans%2013%20vs%201%20-%204.MP3

    This sermons looks at the first 7 verses: http://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopup.asp?SID=925111943583

    This one at the first 2 verses: http://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopup.asp?SID=102112022383
    And this one at verses 3 & 4: http://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopup.asp?SID=1010111029467

    Bill – most officials fail to honor their oath to support and/or defend the constitution. Those that neglect or repudiate this obligation need to be turned out of office.

  3. As a pro-gun Christian, this is a hard pill to swallow. Our second amendment gives us the right to keep and bear arms, however I’m pretty sure the Bible is mute on the topic of gun rights.

    If you take the case in the video, your guns can be confiscated by the government in a crisis. Furthermore, what if the 2nd amendment was ruled unconstitutional, or guns were simply outlawed due to a national referendum.

    I would NOT like this situation, but as Christians, are we commanded to obey the government and relinquish our firearms? I think we are. This is a very difficult command to accept, but handing over a firearm is not forbidden by the Bible.

  4. Pilgrim,

    This is an interesting debate to have. Manfred says it correctly…obey everything except when we are forbidden to do what the Bible commands. We have great examples from Romans 13 of course, but also 1 Peter 2 and numerous examples from the Bible such as Joseph in Egypt, the Israelites as slaves in Egypt, Daniel in Babylon, etc.

    So, what would be something the Bible forbids?
    -Owning guns like in the video? Nope, we obey that.
    -If the Government made homeschooling illegal? We would have to obey that.
    -Making preaching Christ illegal? We would not obey and enter suffering for preaching Christ.
    -Making Bible studies illegal? We would not obey that to the point of going to prison.
    -Being required to worship the President as a deity? Nope…we would be prison bound.
    -Denouncing our faith or death? We’d be facing death.
    -Government seizure of personal property? Take it.
    -Government forcing more taxes, fees, etc? Fine take it.
    -Eat Government food? Fine, eat it.
    -Forced to live in Government house with gov’t job and gov’t car? Fine.
    -Government making raw milk illegal? Obey the law.
    -Making midwives and home births illegal? Obey the law.

    Our perspective needs to be centered on Christ first and not on ourselves. God will ordain suffering for his people all to His glory and He will ordain a terrible Government that is very uncomfortable for His children to His glory as well.

    I pray we are prepared to live in such environments. I fear that we are not because we are cursed with freedom and cursed with comfort.

    In Christ alone,
    -atg

  5. ATG,

    I agree with you…most of the way. :)
    As for homeschooling my children….biblically, I am commanded to teach my children all the time. I think we do have a biblical argument for it and I would definitely fight for my right to teach my children. I absolutely refuse to let my children be indoctrinated by the gov’t. I believe the Bible gives parents (and only them) the charge to raise their children (and to do so properly). :)
    Do you think I am off a bit with this? I would love to hear your thoughts on my position!

    Kindly,
    Katy :)

  6. Katy,

    I purposefully put that in there because I know it is a hot button. We homeschool our kids and if we are forced by the gov’t to put our kids in public school, then we would under the commands of Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2. Homeschooling is not a Biblical mandate. Shepherding our kids, teaching our kids, loving our kids, training our kids, guiding ours kids, teaching our kids the Word of God are all mandates and are all done and they are all done independent of formal schooling/curriculum/eduction choices and situation. I know of no Biblical mandate of homeschooling. In fact, if we look at Daniel, he was taught by the Babylonians without concern yet he wouldn’t eat their food because it would make him unclean (i.e. went against God’s mandate). Sending our kids to public school or private school or charter schools is not a sin. It isn’t my preference, but it is not a sin. So if the Gov’t forces us are we being forced to sin or denounce our faith? No.

    Our response with homeschooling is usually an emotional response out of love and passion for our children…I have the same emotions. But Gov’t indoctrination may very well be part of God’s plan…just like Babylon…just like Egypt…Just like Rome…all in God’s plan for our good and His Glory. Would we wish it was different? Yes. Should we rebel against God’s chosen leaders, Gov’t, and laws? No. If we took the homeschool defense to its logical end it would be a sin to go to college and even work for the gov’t because of indoctrination. We are in this world, but not of this world. Some day our kids may be forced to be in public schools, but not of public schools.

    I hope this helps and look forward to your response.

    In Christ alone,
    -atg

  7. Romans 13 was used very effectivly in Nazi Germany, and in Russia as well as other countries to pacify those who were later um no longer around to give their side of history. One might want to look at the verse in the Geneva bible along with the commentary from that period. Our nation was founded on a much different understanding of these verses then we are seeing today! Perhaps atg you might address this in light of the fact that all were British subjects at the time of the Revolution for our Independance? :)
    Also would anyone care to speak to this in light of verses that say something like: Those who lead into captivity will be lead into captivity, and those who kill with the sword will be killed with the sword?
    …and no I am not a Dominionist, tea partyier, or involved in any patriot movements, or militias, or soverign citizen groups, I just have eyes to see and ears to hear…very provocative blog indeed!

  8. Mickey Merrie,

    You may be right about the Nazi’s use of Roman’s 13…however, in all my studies of WWII I haven’t seen where the Nazi’s are the authority on Biblical interpretation or a trusted source for proper application of the text. Bottom line is that true Christians are still under the mandates of Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2.

    Our country’s foundation was on rebellion and Christ-less deism. This country was not founded on Christ or Christian principals. In fact, if the founding fathers were reading their Bibles they would have been bound by Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2 and they would have RESISTED rebellion and formation of a new nation. If they had seen the King of England as God’s appointed leader and seen their requirement as Christians to obey the leaders and nation they were under, as all Christians are called to do, they would have had no justification to rebel. Ultimately, they rebelled over taxes, which means they completely missed Matthew 22 and Jesus’ call to pay taxes to whom they are due. But, alas, the founding fathers were not Biblical Christians and thus these things didn’t register to them.

    Regarding your reference to Rev 13:10 above, you left off the following half of verse 10: “…Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.” I’m not sure what you were getting at with that verse, but we see that the call for endurance and faith is found in captivity and the sword.

    In Christ alone,
    -atg

  9. Thanks for the reply atg…and we are in agreement regarding the endurance and faithfulness of the saints. For we will suffer! Those pieces, as you have well noted are eternally connected together, and actually well make the point that ours is a position seperated from the 2 fleshly responses of fight or submit to ungodly government, for we are citizens of a Kingdom NOT of this world.
    Are you pre-trib. mid-trib. pre-wrath. amillinial, preterist, post trib. or dominionist? ( Said with a smile brother, as I am not at all against you on this.)
    Have you looked at the Geneva and accompanying notes? Many see the issue as godly government and not godless government as that higher power which was to be obeyed. Paul certainly spent countless time in prison and worse for not obeying the governments, both political and religious over him in his day!
    Your take it would appear would require you, as a good Luthern and soldier to obey the Nazi’s over you had you been in Germany in those days. (Somehow, I don’t think that would have been the case for either of us.)
    This is an issue that all true believers must settle in advance and by the Holy Spirit’s direction as many scriptures must be contemplated. (Used in the traditional sense not post modern vulgar)

  10. Mickey Merrie,

    I am Amil in my eschatology, however I don’t believe it applies to this conversation. I have not looked at the Geneva notes on this passage. If you have a link to these comments I’ll take a look.

    I think that Paul was imprisoned in these areas for preaching Christ as messiah and savior and fulfillment of the OT prophecy. He wasn’t arrested for disobeying the government. As discussed above, we disobey the gov’t when the gov’t forces us to disobey the Bible. Paul of course went to prison when he was told to not preach Christ and we are called to do the same. We must be careful not to allow godly or godless government to enter the conversation because the Kingdom is not of this world and our allegiance is to God who transcends all gov’ts. Our gov’t in USA is completely godless, yet we are still to obey.

    I’m not sure why you say I am a Lutheran, as I am not. I would certainly be 100% against the gov’ts discrimination and murder of innocent people as the Nazi’s did. What the Nazi’s did is completely counter to the commands of the Bible, so there wouldn’t be any obedience to a gov’t that was exterminating millions of people. This suggestion lets the pendulum swing to far into the extreme case. I think we would have to deal with Nazi Germany as a unique case requiring unique response in many areas as I think you are suggesting.

    In His Grace,
    -atg

  11. Amen guys and gals..
    to add to abidingthroughgrace’s list.

    Do we continue to speak the truth that homosexuality is sin? YES

    For what is life? isn’t life more important than FOOD and clothes more important than the BODY?

    And like Daniel did, he purposed (decided and made up his mind ahead of time) that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king’s meat, nor with the wine which he drank:”=Daniel 1:8.

    May we who serve the Living and Only True God maker of heaven and earth be BOLD for Christ if martial law comes and be like our heavenly Father to bring HIM all the glory and honor that men around us would praise the Lord and be saved….

    for it’s “Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.”——Zech.4:6b

  12. ATG,
    We are actually quite in agreement on most all of this.
    I am using the dialogue with you as a point of thought for the many who would read this, yet not join in the discussion. Many being of different end times opinions then ours. Here are a couple of links to Geneva Romans 13 and commentary as per your request.

    http://www.bing.com/searchq=Geneva+Bible+Romans+13&qs=n&form=QBRE&pq=geneva+bible+romans+13&sc=0-15&sp=-1&sk=

    I didn’t think you were Luthern, my point was that many Nazi soldiers were Luthern and had to deal with Romans 13 from the standpoint that they were to obey their government. Further, many christians throughout Europe did nothing precisely because of the mis-use of Romans 13. Kindly re-read my post and perhaps see this.
    As for dealing with Nazi Germany as a unique case, I would point out that the definition of Facism includes the marriage of corporations and government. Sound familiar to anyone? Thomas Watson founder of IBM, and his key punch machines were an instrumental piece in the operation of every aspect of the Nazi machine from running the trains and ovens on time to knowing every Jew in Europe down to 1/16th Jew. How much more information and precision do his machines of today give governments over their subjects. By the way his other 2 top customers in addition to the Nazi’s were the IRS and the Social Security Administration here in godless America! Perhaps we soon shall see what the patience and preserverance of the saints are in another not so unigue circumstance much closer to home?!?! …and perhaps that too is part of Pilgrim’s point as well.
    (For all of us)
    As for folks who use Romans 13 to lead people captive. You too will be lead captive, and disposed of soon after. Finally those who think that they can raise arms against even a third world military, think again! FYI Russian soldiers are at this moment training here in America, there are well documented muslim traing camps here in America, and our government just placed an order for 400,000,000 40 cal. hollow point bullets which are never used for training practice, and cannot be used in war, for they are against the Geneva Convention, so just where will they be used? China now has banking power here in America, including acquiring more banks, and the government of China owns the majority of the Chinese bank now allowed this privilege.
    American soldiers and police officers sworn to defend the Constitution may not turn on American born “terrorists” yet UN sponsored foreign soldiers have no such hinderances!
    Isn’t it time we served Jesus as Lord, taking our place in His heavenly kingdom, finally being dis-“illusioned” from the religion of this age.

  13. Katy, I would be on your side with this one as I do now believe that homeschooling falls solely under the remit of the parents.

    ATG, Brother, I do not believe we can say that because “homeschooling” is not mentioned that it is not a Biblical mandate. The case of Daniel was under captivity by a hostile power and he was taken against his will to a foreign nation as a slave to Babylon. Mandating an education under strict, liberal, God-hating government minders takes much out of the hands of the parents that belongs solely to them. Once a child grows and is able to make their own decisions as an adult, then they can decide to go to college, join the military, etc.

    To use a valid case of government control, here in Liberia, the legal government was controlled by a band of misfits and rebels. They sought to force children to take up arms and to indoctrinate them through various forms of educational formats. Many true believers fled into the surrounding jungles to keep their children safe, and rightly AND biblically had the right to protect their children by whatever means possible.

    Sometimes, we must also consider when to fight and when to flee. When I was in 6th grade, social workers came to our home and informed my parents that homeschooling was illegal under the laws of the state in which we were then residing. They threatened, cajoled, etc., then finally told my parents that if we were not entered into a local school, they would be back with a court order to enforce it one week later. We moved out of the state within 5 days. I have no doubt that my parents made the right decision to protect us and to honor the mandate given to them by God.

  14. Jungle Missionary,

    It is nice to see comments from you. I think there may be a case of discussing the extremes in this conversation. My point is that if the USA right now outlawed homeschooling, we as Christians would be required to obey this new law. In order to rebel against this law and essentially break the law we would have to prove that not homeschooling our kids is a sin…that sending our kids to public or private or charter school is by the opposite case a sin. I can’t make that case in good concience from the Bible and I have never heard a legitimate argument that makes the case that not homeschooling is a sin.

    The Daniel scenario does apply because he rebelled against the Gov’t forcing him to sin by eating unclean food…but his learning under the Babylonian teachers was not something he rebelled against. He also rebelled against bowing to Nebby’s statue. There is a clear delineation there of what was worthy of disobedience.

    On the flip side…if the govt tried to take my kids away from me I would fight, hide, & run to protect them.

    I believe we have to think through the overarching concept. We would have to not allow our kids into college, or into the military, or accept govt jobs because of the same indoctrination.

    Sending kids to school is not a sin, doesn’t cause us to deny Christ, doesn’t stop is from preaching Christ, so I can’t see how it is worthy of choosing to rebel against God’s mandate, His ordained leaders and laws for our time and culture that He sovereignly put us in.

    In brotherly love,
    -atg

  15. Jungle Missionary,
    I agree with you…for that is how I see it as well! :)

    ATG,
    I do understand what you are saying….I guess if that time ever comes, it will be a time for prayer and strong discussion with my husband.
    You did say: ” On the flip side…if the govt tried to take my kids away from me I would fight, hide, & run to protect them”. I see public schools *as* the govt taking my children away. I see sending them to public school as literally *giving* them to the gov’t. That makes me cringe. I think it would be sinful to send my children when I am instructed to teach/train them up. That calling was given to me and my husband…and I think to send them out of our home for 8 hrs a day would actually *be* sinful. Oh my….such a difficult situation to discuss. May that day never come!
    I truly appreciate your views on this! :)

  16. Katy & Jungle Missionary,

    Some questions I’m curious about from your perspective:

    1. Are you then calling all Christian parents (and unregenerate parents) who put their kids in a) public school, b) private school, c) charter school to REPENT?

    2. What sin are they repenting of?

    3. Christian parents who send their kids to school, but also teach their kids the Bible, shepherding them through what they experience in school and everyday life, guiding them through the differences in the school’s teaching and what the Bible teaches – are these parents requiring repentance as well?

    4. If a pastor sends his kid to school and does not homeschool, is he disqualified from the office of elder for living in unrepentant sin?

    5. Have we made homeschool an idol?

    6. Have we made our children idols?

    This is a good and healthy conversation. I look forward to your thoughts.

    In the riches of Christ,
    -atg

  17. atg – considering how hateful the gubmint schools are toward God and how they – as a system – work to subvert the children to a worldview that is hateful to God, how can it be in the sight of God to send young, unconverted children into that system?

  18. Manfred, This is truly an interesting discussion. How can it be excluded from the site of God in his sovereign plan? Need we review Israel in Egypt for 400 years, endless judges and kings in Israel who were 100x’s more godless than our gov’t perverting the temple with rampant pagan idolatry, the Jews in Babylonian exile?

    Do we really believe that somehow our homes are bastions of holiness? Our homes are sin filled pride and idol factories. Just because the Gov’t is godless and they want to indoctrinate our children doesn’t mean we are somehow in a unique godless time in the history of man. Rome was burning Christians as lamp posts and using them for entertainment by throwing them to the lions. Ruling authorities (gov’t) have always been against Christians and God.

    If our perspective is to not allow our kids to face a worldview that is subverting our faith and hateful towards God, we would crumble into little balls on our living room floor in fear of stepping outside our house. There is no such place that isn’t subverting our faith and that isn’t hateful towards God. We have a respite in our homes (maybe depending on the parents) and in the church (maybe depending on the church), but in general we are left to live as lights in the darkness until Christ returns or takes us home.

    Are we not called to share in the suffering of Christ? In the USA we are so cursed with luxury and comfort and freedom. Suffering for us in the USA could feasibly manifest itself through losing the freedom of what luxuries we hold dear like homeschooling. Are we prepared to share in the suffering of Christ by being obedient to the Gov’t if they outlaw homeschooling and we have to undo all the public school teaching each evening and weekend at home?

    In brotherly love,
    -atg

  19. atg – We are not currently forced to sending our kids to gubmint schools. Choosing to send them to Molech is not the same thing as being taken (by God’s providence) into slavery and being forced to do so. Choosing to expose little children and immature saints to the wiles of Satan is never a good thing.

  20. Manfred, yes of course we are not right now. But that isn’t the discussion. The discussion is how far will we take the command of Romans 13. We homeschool and love it and highly recommend it for all the reasons stated here. There is no better way to educate your kids. But does it rise to the level of disobeying the Gov’t if it was outlawed? No. Is sending your kid to public school when we have the freedom to homeschool a sin? No.

  21. atg – the conversation appears to me to be ambiguous enough to apply now and in the theoretical future.

    How is it not a sin to send unconverted and young Christian children into an education system that hates God and tries very hard to convert its students to that point of view? Does it please God for this to be done? I cannot see how choosing to submit our children to this system pleases God. Where in Scripture can we find such counsel? If it doesn’t please Him, it is sin.

  22. Manfred, I do understand your point and you make it well. I believe, however, that God will be just as pleased with parents whose kids are in school yet the parents are engaged with their kids and their kids minds to train them in the way of they should go and that shepherd them and teach them the scriptures in all they do. I also believe that God will be just as pleased that for those older children who are saved (maybe 12-18 years) will be a light in the darkness of the school system bringing the gospel through their witness to the world as we are called to do as believers. I also believe that God isn’t pleased with our homeschooling if we do it out of self-righteousness, fear, or idolatry of family. I’m not suggesting anyone is doing that here…we should just check our hearts.

    In the hope of our soveriegn God,
    -atg

  23. Dear Manfred,,, God does not consider it sin if we don’t homeschool. There are many of us who are poor and cannot afford homeschooling. are you saying,God would consider such classes of people living in sin? Too bad for the poor people who are Christians the rich people who can afford homeschooling are more “righteous” than we are.

    Anyways, I thought God was in complete control not us. We can raise our children in homeschool and they can still end up with a heart that is wicked. It is GOD who changes people.

    Also, when it comes to education and homeschooling that doesn’t save anyone anyways.. A thief is a thief. You can take a thief give him a great education and now you’ve just made him a smart thief. Education never changes a person’s heart. God does. We can train up a child in the way that he should go and in the end he will not depart from it”–that Proverb doesn’t say our children will automatically be saved. No a heart transplant needs to take place and it is GOD who is the Saviour of ALL men…

    Germany @ around the time of WWII was the most educated country in the world. And it “certainly” didn’t solve the problem of sin intellectually.

    In fact I would submit to you humbly that one of the biggest part of our problems as Christians is we are too smart and don’t know how to trust in the LORD with all our hearts anymore. We LEAN on our own understanding and it has gotten us in a mess.
    Anyways that’s my 2cents~

  24. Linda – you’ve read what I did not say. I did not mention home schooling in my latest comments. I never once said any education would save a child. I will not respond further because your comment to me is based on what I did not say.

  25. Linda,
    I kindly say, quickly (as to not get off-topic), that we are considered *poor* in this country and we homeschool. It doesn’t take a great amount of funds. It can be done. Being poor should never be a reason not to homeschool. Anything important enough *can* be done…there are various resources available for free or low cost. Also…one can get rid of many extras (such as TV, internet, cell phones etc.) to find the money to do it.

    ATG,
    Hello :) Well….wow…I am not a biblical scholar…so I want to be careful what I say…but I *do* believe that sending your children to public school could very well be considered sinful in the sight of God. Here is my basis….scripturally, only parents are given the right to train up (teach, discipline) their children. It is also my duty to protect my children. I believe that, according to the Scriptures, my children are mine.
    Hitler used schools to indoctrinate children. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_did_hitler_indoctrinate_the_youth_of_Germany

    Do I believe my God is absolutely sovereign *over* the gov’t? A thousand times *yes*! But just as if the govt ordered me to send my children into a brothel or some such horrible place, I likewise wouldn’t send them into the public schools without a fight…as I feel that they are just as God-less a place (some schools worse than others). I believe we are called to teach our children and can’t find a sensible reason why anyone would send them to other people for more hours a day than they are awake at home.

    I absolutely (in all kindness as I type) do not think making marriage, family or children idols is what we, with firm homeschooling and tendencies to shelter, are doing. I think as a wife and mother I am biblically called to care for my home, husband and children to the glory of God (to the best of my ability). They *are* to be my focus (second to my relationship with Christ). :)

    I believe the Bible commands *us* to teach our children….truly this kind of age-segregated schooling hasn’t been around all that long…but since it has been, it has been getting worse every year. Often, I hear parents, at the end of summer, breathe a sigh of relief as school will start up again and their children will be out of their hair. :( And the number of children in daycare is horrendous. I think our society has gone awry (in more ways than one) and public school is one of those ways!

  26. Katy,

    Thank you for your reply. I would like you and manfred and JM (when he is online again) to answer the questions I asked above. They are key to the discuss and I’d like to know both your perspective.

  27. atg – I do not see the questions you posed above as having anything to do with the choices we have today. Being free to keep our children out of gubmint schools does not deny the providence or sovereignty of God nor does it deny that our homes are full of sinful people. BUT the homes of Christians ought to be focused on pleasing Christ and we are not to seek out suffering – especially when it puts young ones in the minefield. And that’s what gubmint schools are. They are designed – despite the few good folk therein – to sacrifice children to Satan.

    I do not deny that Christians are called to suffer for Christ nor that we are, as a society, far too fond of our comforts than we ought be. But I think we cannot answer theoretical questions about what we might do IF. That’s why I focused my comments on what we can do now.

    Let me ask you a few questions: Would you have freely given your children to Molech if your government demanded it? Do we see, in Elijah, an example of God-directed rebellion against the godless government of that day? Is it easy for you to make judgments about how others should decide these things?

  28. Manfred, please read my post from 528am today. I put 6 questions there that are not “what ifs” and not judgements and not theoretical. They are relevant and current. I would like to hear your answers to those as school=sin in your view.

    You are getting a little carried away in your last comment, which I don’t appreciate. I am asking questions and being polite and not making judgements. Saying those who put their kids in school is making judgement and I am making an attempt to suggest that we should all think through this better. Maybe you missed that I too am a homeschooler so I can speak from this perspective. I am also dealing with the post point of how far do we take Romans 13 in the case of martial law.

    Theoretical questions are vital to the faith because we must be prepared to deal with what may come. Theoretical questions are ways to check our heart.

    In brotherly love,
    Atg

  29. atg – thanks for specifying which post had the relevant questions; I had looked at your 6:37 AM post :-)

    1. Are you then calling all Christian parents (and unregenerate parents) who put their kids in a) public school, b) private school, c) charter school to REPENT? Christian parents who put their kids in God-hating schools should repent. Unconverted parents should have the gospel preached to them.

    2. What sin are they repenting of? Sacrificing their children to a God-hating system; how is this not sinful?

    3. Christian parents who send their kids to school, but also teach their kids the Bible, shepherding them through what they experience in school and everyday life, guiding them through the differences in the school’s teaching and what the Bible teaches – are these parents requiring repentance as well? If the school is a God-hating government school, yes. All parents should be doing what you describe. Working daily at these God-given chores should not be made twice as hard by having sent the children to a God-hating government school.

    4. If a pastor sends his kid to school and does not homeschool, is he disqualified from the office of elder for living in unrepentant sin? If he sends his kid to a God-hating government school, he should explain himself to his people and ask them.

    5. Have we made homeschool an idol? Some people do; no humble Christian who rightly understands his nature would do so. That does not make God-hating government schools less evil.

    6. Have we made our children idols? This is a major part of the American culture and should not be so in the church of our Lord. God-hating government schools make idol-making much easier than God-fearing Christian parents.

    The questions presume wrongly that home schooling is the only proper alternative and that there is no difference between God-hating government schools and other alternatives. I think home schooling is what we see prescribed and demonstrated in Scripture and that it’s best for parents and children. A Christ-centered coop or private school would not be sinful, IMO; just not as directly in line with Scripture.

  30. Dear Beloved in Christ,

    Perhaps this is why it is said: “But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.” Matthew 6:33-34

    If we are one of God’s beloved sheep He will give us the grace, wisdom and discernment to navigate these “potential trials” if and when they come. Presently, we need to equip ourselves with the armour of God to be able to stand firm.

    In the strong name of the Prince of Peace, Jesus our Savior.
    Blessings, charisse

  31. atg,

    I will answer your questions but I am quite nervous about doing so…since I am truly an imperfect creature and would never want to say something that is not in accordance with what God truly thinks.

    1. Yes, I do believe all Christian parents should homeschool…and even in the homes where there is only one parent around, who must work to provide, I believe the church should be stepping up to help in this manner. It’s so hard though to say *for sure* that God would expect those who put children in schools to repent. I would never want to say something He didn’t truly expect. I think that quite possibly, those families should repent.

    2. The sin I believe they may be partaking of is not teaching their children constantly, as scripture calls us to do in Deuteronomy. I believe that they are letting their children go to a place of anti-Christian teaching (evolution as fact, socialism/marxxism in some schools, homosexuality as good etc.). So in essence, one may teach Christian values to their children at home…but the truth is that children spend more hours at school through the day than at home (waking hours). You may teach them but it is one step forward and ten steps back. I would say it would be sinful to not protect them from these things. I know *we* don’t save our children but we are instructed to *train them up* and that is next to impossible when you send them to a place that tears down any base you have made.

    3. I believe many homeschool and don’t properly catechise and teach their children the things of Christ. So this would be sinful as well. For the parents that send their children to schools away from home, after catechising them properly at home, as I said above I think it is taking one step forward and ten steps back. I addressed this question more in my answer for number 2.

    4. If a pastor sends his children to public school, I think there should be a meeting among the elders as to why this is. I wouldn’t be comfortable with a pastor who believes sending their children into a lion’s cage, unprepared, is okay.

    5. I don’t make homeschooling an idol…I revere my God and His calling upon my life. I believe some people can make it an idol…but for the true believing Christian, I think it is about obedience, seeking to train up our children constantly.

    6. Children can be made idols…but I see this as quite the opposite of what many homeschooling families are doing…we don’t worship our children…we worship the Almighty God Who gave us these beautiful treasures. In obedience to what He has called us to do, we train up our children.

    There are my answers…from a simple woman. If I am wrong on any points, I will truly repent…but I just don’t see how anyone can biblically make the case for sending children into a lion’s den without the proper armor. Yes, we can teach them at home (arm them with the Word), but the school has them from age 6-18. The God-less schools and the peers of the children will strip that armor away in no time. I want to stand before God, one day, and tell Him that I truly tried my *very* best….gave it my all. :)

  32. What about parents whose children enter into the cruel, secular world after they graduate, unprepared for what they’re going to experience therein – largely due to their “helicopter” parents and/or the “extreme” sheltering OF being homeschooled?

    Should those parents also repent?

    Todd
    Texas

  33. todd – As children mature and exhibit the saving grace of Christ, parents must determine the freedom and restrictions in place in order to prepare the child to deal with world in a godly manner. No properly home-schooled child has been “extremely sheltered” at home – this is a myth based on a few extreme cases. Parents who give their children a classical education do a better job of preparing them for the world than the God-hating government schools could hope to.

    BTW – what is a “helicopter parent”?

  34. Brothers and sisters in Christ,

    Maybe I am misunderstanding but this seems concerning to me. Is it being stated that inorder to be a Christian (not in unrepentant sin-which would therefore negate that you really are) that we are saying it is a God given mandate to homeschool your children?

    There was great dissension among the brethren regarding circumcision “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you can not be saved.” Acts 15:1 After much debate Peter said “Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.” Acts 15:10-11

    “It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.” Galatians 5:1

  35. Todd,
    I feel sending them into the secular world, after years of proper training and discipline is **much** better than sending a young child into the secular humanist school system unprepared and vulnerable.

    Charisse,
    Honestly, this is why I am careful in what I say. I don’t know *for sure*. I am not trying to throw stones…but rather just to state my views and answer the questions I was asked to the best of my ability. :)

    I guess my question is: Why would any believer of Jesus Christ, after hearing about what is taught in public schools, send their children off for most of their waking hours? It’s just as I said in one of my posts above….do we have the biblical *freedom* to send our child to a brothel or some hideous place such as that? Does having the *freedom* to do so mean it is the God-honoring choice?

  36. @ Katy, Thank you for honestly answering the questions. I wasn’t trying to trick you or pin you in…I am just curious.

    @ Charisse, I too am concerned about what I am hearing…so you are not alone in that.

    Katy & Manfred, I appreciate your personal convictions on this issue. However, I think calling all parents with kids in school to repentance isn’t sustained through Biblical authority, but through preference. I have yet to see a compelling Biblical case for calling parents to repentance and Pastors to step out of the ministry over sending kids to school.

    I can think of 3 examples where godly men were taught by the world in the Bible, yet I can’t think of one place that condemns it. Examples: Daniel 1&2: Daniel wouldn’t defile himself thru the Babylonian food or worshiping Nebby’s statue, but this is absent in his Godless Babylonian education. This is a clear example. In Acts 7:22+ Moses was raised in the learning of the Godless Egyptian wisdom and he was mighty and used by God. This is a clear example. Acts 22:3 we see Paul describe how he was raised up under the legalistic worldly pharisees to the point that he came out killing Christians. This is a clear example. None of these were accidents, none of these where a surprise to God, but all were in His sovereign electing plan. None of these cases were labelled or discussed as awful sinful situations…the parents of these children where not found in sin per scripture.

    Grace, mercy, freedom in Christ are all being left out of the conversation as well as God’s sovereign election. Schools are just a smaller version of the world we live in…there is no distinguishable difference. We as believers are to have peace and rest in Christ and confidence in God’s sovereign plan over every aspect of our life. Sending kids to school might not be my preference, but hardly rising to the level of sin.

    I expect that you’ll disagree, but we will not divide over this Minor issue. I pray we will be guided by the Major issues in unity regardless of the minors.

    in the unmeasurable riches of Christ,
    -atg

  37. Manfred, So from your statement above God is no longer sovereign over education, government and what happens to our children? And the logical conclusion from your statement above is that these educational examples from the Word of God don’t represent sin in those days, but they are sinful now.

  38. atg – God is sovereign, period. He gives man some freedom to make choices – all that fit within His providential will beyond our vision. Do you deny you have a choice to home school your kids, rather than send them to a God-hating government school? Calvinists do not reduce man to a robot of God. We hold man responsible for his actions – as does God, even those whose nature prevents them from doing good. To be coerced into subjection to a God-hating government school by an authoritarian ruler is far different from choosing the same environment with not coerced.

  39. Manfred, of course I agree. But nothing of what you said converts the 3 Biblical examples of worldly education to a sin today. Our disagreement is in the rigidity of saying that putting your kids in “school” = sin.

  40. atg,

    I didn’t feel tricked. I am glad for the challenge and to hear your opinions. I truly don’t know if I can say it is *sin* or not to send children to public school. I believe it is absolutely wrong…and at least, according to my convictions, if I sent my children to public school, I would be sinning.

  41. Manfred, this is not actually for you only so please don’t take it personally.
    I have been following the debate on Romans 13 and am greatly impressed by ATG’s patient and incisive comments. In fact challenged by his quiet, dignified insistence on Truth
    It appears to me that ATG is only attempting to focus minds away from emotional re-actions and onto what God is saying to us through His word. More importantly making a vain attempt to define sin that requires repentance as opposed to what might merely be considered unwise actions. In addition he speaks strongly for the sovereignty of God and it appears to me that others are either pleading for free-will or failing to look at this aspect fully in the face.
    Can anybody really claim that to send their children to a government school is a sin worthy of repentance, failing which repentance they need to be set aside from their church a best or lose their salvation at worst.
    ATG is correct when he appears to be asking where is this even remotely hinted at in Scripture and doesn’t sort under what Paul deal with in the very next chapter of Romans? Interesting that 14 follows 13 isn’t it?

  42. Another pilgrim – greetings! I have not said one word in favor of “free will” – that being the demonic doctrine of Pelagian. I’ve tried to point out that the government schools in this country are God-hating and asking how it cannot be sin to willingly put one’s young child into that environment. Nobody bought by the blood of Christ can lose that status – please do not take a comment about a given sin and extrapolate it to an embrace of a false doctrine.

  43. Dear Manfred and Katy,

    I completely understand your position on public schools. I do not disagree with your assesment. However, in God’s providence He has placed His beloved in all different stations and locations.

    We had a local pastor whose child requested (8th grade) that they be allowed to attend their public school (they were attending a Christian school) because they felt like they were so privileged and blessed to know Christ and wanted to be salt and light for their Savior. They were called to a mission field.

    I also know several teachers who choose to work in public schools so that they could impact the lives of children who may never have had one person pray for them. These are godly women who do their work as unto the Lord, yet by your criteria you would cause them to believe they are acting in sin. What would happen if every true Christian retreated from the public arena? Only God can direct our paths in the way He determines we should go, which may or may not coincide with human wisdom. I don’t think we can paint this with a broad brush, because we can not know the Lord’s purposes in these matters.

    Hopefully, I have not offended you and I deeply respect your convictions.

    In christ alone, charisse

  44. I’ve said – in this thread and others – that when a child is mature and shows the saving grace of Christ in his life, I think it fine if he and his parents want to send him into the world of the God-hating government school. I have tried to be careful and restrict my condemnation to that of willingly putting young, unregenerate children into God-hating schools, not all schools. I stand with Katy and others who home school their young children (as my wife did when our kids were young) – it is what Scripture reveals as God’s will. I am NOT advocating Christians withdraw from the public arena – I stand against using young, unconverted children of Christians as fodder in the spiritual warfare that is our culture.

    I ask, again – how is it not sin to willingly put a young, unregenerate child into the God-hating system known as the US government school?

    I am not offended by anything anyone has said on this entire post :-)

  45. @Another Pilgrim – thank you my friend for the kind words. I feel like I should send you a fruit basket! :)

    @Manfred – The reason these comments from Another Pilgrim are coming is because we have to take your comments to their logical extent. Maybe you (all in love here, brother) need to sit back and reflect on the message you are putting forth to make sure it is what you actually believe. This is how I see your position from your comments: The whole discussion starts with “how far will we take Romans 13 in the case of martial law”. The argument then turned generally to: “I will disobey the gov’t to homeschool my kids if homescholing is outlawed. My claim is that homeschooling is not a Biblical mandate by Christ such as preaching the Gospel is or not murdering or not lying or…you get the idea. Since then the point that you and Katy have made through your own convictions is that you will disobey the gov’t if homeschooling was outlawed because it is a sin to put your kids in gov’t school. The logical assumption than is that you and Katy believe that it is a sin TODAY to put your kids in school…which you both have confirmed. Now, this is fine as it is your conviction. However, the Biblical case is just not there…I gave you the opposite case with Biblical evidence that you have implied doesn’t count today for reasons I still don’t see. The logical next question then is to ask, why? Does it affect their salvation? Is God not sovereign over our kids while in school? Will homeschooling somehow affect our kids salvation? Is our homeschooling more righteous than the school’s righteousness? All these point to some sort of question of God’s sovereignty or belief in our self-righteous successes or it points to my conclusion that putting kids in school as not = sin.

    I say this not to pounce, punch, or insult…I say it out of love to just question if your words above represent your faith. We must be careful how we sling the judgement of sin around and it is ok for us to think through this stuff. In fact, it is hugely important that we think through it all to ensure we are being faithful with the Word of God. If your position is that putting kids in school is sin…then it is important to think through why. If you still feel that way after meditating on it, great. I still disagree as it has no scriptural basis to hold to the extreme.

    In love and grace,
    -atg

  46. atg – You keep tangling up man’s responsible actions and choices with God’s sovereignty. I’ve never indicated that our kids will only get saved if they are home-schooled – never made ANY such connection. Those questions are red herrings, dragging attention away from the ONE claim I’ve made: sending young, unconverted children into a God-hating school is sinful.

    Government schools in this country promote homosex, provide secret abortions, beat down Christian students and teachers who want to be know as such, program children to be obedient citizens (the German model) rather than thinking adults. Remember this thread? http://defendingcontending.com/2012/03/14/once-more-with-feeling-government-education-is-evil/

    How can it NOT be sin to put a young, unconverted child into such a system?

  47. Manfred, I do apologise that I read into your statements “He gives man some freedom to make choices” and “Calvinists do not reduce man to a robot of God” far more then you obviously intended. However, please do note that my response was not aimed at you but was general in nature.
    Of course one cannot “lose one’s salvation” but if one deliberately continues in known sin without thought or repentance was one saved in the first place?
    Having cleared these points (hopefully to your complete satisfaction) you and others might want to address the rest of my previous response?

  48. What I am saying is that your comments are sending out the message I described above. You may not believe it, but this is the picture coming out. That is my point. That is what I wanted you to ponder.

  49. There’s always the danger for people to “read” what they want or think, rather than what is written. We face this when we read familiar passages in Scripture and need to be on guard.

  50. There is also a danger of lacking humility and lacking a teachable spirit when someone points out a concern. Is our concern for Christ or winning an argument?

  51. It ain’t winning the argument that is my concern. It’s being properly understood on what we both think is an important issue. I lose no sleep over who agrees with me or not. Show me how sending a young, unconverted child into a God-hating school is taught in Scripture – of that book I am willing to be taught.

  52. I have to weigh-in here folks. This thread has obviously regressed/digressed into another round of the factional subject of homeschooling. The original topic was (and still is) Martial Law and Romans 13.

    I have a last thought on “classical education” and homeschooling, and that is this: although there is nothing wrong with either, and both are indeed great options, I will NOT be censorious of fellow believers who elect where and/or how to educate the children the Lord gives them. I don’t intend on commenting further regarding this specific subject – too emotionally divisive, and it doesn’t usually edify.

    @Manfred
    A “helicopter” parent is one who continually “hovers” over their kid(s) to ensure they can’t possibly hurt, injure, endanger, or imperil themselves. “Overbearing” would be another word.

    Lastly, I agree with the assertion that we are to be subject to all civil authorities unless they require us to sin against God. Even if we don’t agree with the Law, we must obey it. Those who God has put into authority positions over us will give an account for their decisions and behavior.

    Pretty clear to me.

    Todd
    Texas

  53. Brother, we do need to be careful what stumbling blocks we put in another’s way which does not mean that we must not speak up on important issues; perhaps better put “issues clearly important to our Lord”.
    I really think that you might just possible be misunderstanding ATG. He is not even inferring that Scripture says it’s ok to send children into what you refer to as “God-hating schools” (A thought, aren’t they already in a God-hating, rebellious world). What I hear ATG saying is that (1) God is sovereign and will protect a child – if so be His Will – in any and every environment and (2) also asking, inter alia, where is it taught that sending a child to a Government school is a sin (Of the same kind, for example, as blaspheming God)?
    I respect the sincerity of your convictions and appreciate your defending them; however do be open to learning that just perhaps these convictions might be incorrect.

  54. I am so terribly imperfect….and although my views are firm, I do have a teachable spirit. I appreciate this discussion from each person who has offered their opinions.

    My concern is for Christ and for all to be done His way. I believe my children are young, impressionable, and immature. I take Proverbs 22:6 to heart. Sending them to public schools for more hours of the waking day will indoctrinate them with whatever the schools want to put into their minds. Then, rather than being on the offensive, I will be on the defensive…trying to undo, constantly, what anti-God things are put into their minds. It’s my responsibility to keep their minds pure and clean as long as possible. Yes, I believe God is absolutely sovereign…but that doesn’t negate the charge He has given me and my husband. I don’t believe I am properly parenting my children if I allow them to be put into the public schools.

    I believe adults in the public school system have all rights to be there and teach…and may they be a wonderful light shining in a dark place. I don’t think children are ready for the responsibility to fight for their faith. I liken it to a lion tamer. Would you send your children in there untrained? By the age of 8.9 or 10, are they ready to defend their faith….or are they more likely to believe the “professionals” who say we came from monkeys and worry more about their peers than pleasing God?

    I will fight the government from forcing us to ever place our children in public school. They do not have the rights over my child….I do. That *is* biblical. And them forcing me to give rights over to the school/govt for 8 hrs a day is against God’s instructions. My children are mine…and I will fight for them, to keep them safe from harm. I don’t believe my child’s salvation depends upon *me*…but I am instructed to train up my children and can’t see how this can be done if they are away from me more than they are with me. :)

    If this day comes, my husband and I will be in prayer over it. And ultimately, as a woman, I yield to my husband’s ultimate decisions. Everything I have posted has been my opinion. I may beg and plead with my husband but if the govt forces us, he may do it…so my opinion isn’t as weighty as the men in this thread who are leaders of their homes. :)
    ______________________________________________________

    @Another Pilgrim…

    I do see your point about Romans 14…and I need to be careful about judging others’ stance…but I guess I truly can’t understand why there are Christians *not* home-educating their children…as Luke 6:40 says a pupil will become like his teacher. Scary to think about when you consider the things taught in schools these days.

  55. Katy, your opinion is always valued and appreciated. Thank you for sharing.

    Manfred, my dear brother. I fear that this discussion is no longer about what it should be about. We can agree to disagree on this issue. If someone questions the words you are saying regarding our Lord and Savior and the Word of God, the response should be to ensure razor sharp precision on your meaning. I wouldn’t want my beliefs and interpretation to come out in a way that led others to misunderstand what I was actually attempting to teach from scripture. Our goal as teachers should be to have razor sharp precision in our interpretation and strive for the utmost in communicating it w/o confusion and when confusion or misunderstanding arise we are obligated to humbly review and correct, clarify, and further explain…or discover our point is weak or wrong (I’m not suggesting this of yours above) and bring that same humility to correcting it. I pray you would agree with me in this. If Christ is our utmost concern and accuracy in how we deal with people and accuracy in what the Word of God says, our own views will always be suspect in our own eyes as we know that our hearts are deceitfully wicked.

    I appreciate both Manfred’s and Katy’s deep love for their children.

    your brother,
    -atg

  56. I sincerely hope that even if you are disengaging from this topic (as it appears to be your desire) you will still continue posting on DefCon. I do think that todd3588 may be correct when he considers that we’ve strayed off the original topic.
    May I encourage you to commence a thread around “The Lordship of Christ” (DefCon about 29 April). This sermon was a huge challenge to me which I’m not sure that I’ve got my mind around yet,

  57. Hi all,

    I am puzzled by the apprehension some of you have for government schools. I am an Australian and my wife and I ,as well as our son, went to government schools and my son and I attended top class secular universities in Australia. My wife and son are Evangelical Christians and I am a liberal Christian. In real life, we have to interact with others who are non Christian.

    I do not know how bad the US government schools are, so I cannot comment on them. You may have legitimate concerns. However, even if we were forced to go to Government schools true education ( as distinct from indoctrination) requires us to think from a Christian World and Life perspective, but we do so in the world. The church and the family are places for Christian instruction and where we can interact with non Chrisitan views from a Christian world view.

    You have a choice of whether to send your children to Christian schools or have them home schooled if you so wish, provided you have the finances to do so. I do not know what the quality of home schooling is like, but I would suspect that unless parents were properly qualified to teach or were able to afford tutors that such an option might not be desirable. How can someone teach year 12 mathematics to their child properly unless the have a degree with a major in this subject?

    Kind regards,
    John Arthur

  58. exmo: Luke 22:36 states “And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.” I think God would want us to defend our families and ourselves, even if it means doing harm to a criminal.

    On the subject of martial law, I think we can all agree that there are some ungodly forces at work in our government. Barack Hussein Obama, who is most likely a Muslim, is cutting back on freedoms that we once held dear in the name of national security. Look at http://www.martiallawusa.com to see all the proof.

    It’s not tinfoil hat conspiracy theory stuff; this is REALLY happening.

  59. Hi Tracee,

    I doubt that Obama is a Muslim. He is in favour of gay marriage and Muslims are solidly opposed. to same sex unions as far as I understand.

    It is important to interpret biblical passages in their immediate and broader contexts. Your understanding of Luke 22:36 flies in the face of Jesus’ pacifist stance for the disciple communities (read the Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon on the Plain) and has nothing to do with taking the law into our own hands. I will check up the Greek on the word “sword” in this passage, but I think it means the short sword and is not a call to arms.

    It is absurd to think that martial law is likely in the USA in the forseeable future. The USA is a democratic government and there are plenty of checks and balances in the political system to make martial law highly unlikely any time soon.

    Shalom,

    John Arthur

  60. ATG,

    First, you are using examples that do not reflect the situations with which we are dealing. You again mention Daniel, but this was not his choice or his parents as he was a slave of Babylon. He was forcibly taken, more than likely at the point of a sword. While, we are not told the full story, history makes it very clear that if his parents refused they would have faced brutal assaults and probably been murdered at the hands of the godless Babylonian soldiers for refusing. Regardless, the princes of Judah were forced into captivity. God also through His sovereign purposes directed the writer of Daniel to reveal that Daniel and his 3 friends purposed in their hearts they would not defile themselves. This was upon their very arrival into Babylon showing very clearly that their decision to do what was right was because of what they had previously been taught at home and in Judah.

    Second, you mention Moses who was a prince of Egypt after his training in the home of Pharaoh. Again, this is not a valid point as we are dealing with Israelites who had the choice of allowing their son to be killed or let one of the compassionate Egyptians raise him. However, we are also told that Moses’ own mother nursed him. We are not told how long she helped to raise him as a paid “nanny” but we can be sure that there was enough of a Biblical education for him to understand Who the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was. I am positive THAT was not part of the Egyptian curriculum.

    Third, you use Paul as another example. In none of these examples are we dealing with people who would have fallen under the teaching and principles of Romans 13. None of these cases are dealing with Christians and their responsibility to train and teach their children.

    In addition, Brother, I do not think that it is a fair comparison by any stretch to use three examples of a “worldly education” which in two cases was by compulsion by a foreign power on pain of death and one by a non-Christian steeped in the religious teachings of the law. Paul’s parents were not commanded to have him raised or taught by the religious leaders, nor were they commanded him to be taught as a Roman citizen in the local school manners of Roman sons.

    The Israelites were commanded to teach their children every day from the time they rose from sleep to the going down of the sun. I do not believe that Israel is the same as the Church of the New Testament. They are completely separate entities. And certainly, if one held otherwise, it would make the case for homeschooling (in my opinion) even stronger than for those who hold to a position similar to my own. If the Church is a New Testament “version” of the Old Testament Israel, then the commands given to the Israelites would also apply to the children of parents under the New Covenant.

    Interestingly enough, I do not find any passages of Scripture in the Old Testament whereby the Israelites were ever commanded that they were to be completely in subjection to the whims of whatever powers were holding them captive. They were not only to seek forgiveness and turn from their wicked ways, but they were also able to resist with NO command to the contrary (that I can recall) while under the thumb of a surrounding nation.

    In the end, if we are faced with the decision of handing our children to the lions or having to flee, we will choose the latter. Once they are old enough to make their own decisions and are out from under our authority, they can choose military, college, etc. In the meantime, God has given ALL parents who are true believers the responsibility of teaching their children in the things of God. To deny otherwise would be to deny clear teachings of Scripture.

    Whether I can teach my children for 1 hour in the morning and 1 in the evening, then abdicate my role to the government for 8 hours for the purpose of godless subjugation of their minds to the teachings of pre-marital sex (hetero-, homo- or otherwise), evolution, humanism, etc. is for each person to clear with God and their own conscience.

    We have made that mistake and for the time being I will simply state that we confessed what we believe was sin before God and pulled our children from the state system at what became a great expense.

    I would like to answer the 6 questions and will try to do so tomorrow but I have several men coming over for ministerial training. The night will be a long one. Appreciate your prayers.

  61. Tracee, one is so reluctant to feel the need to point out flaws in the outlooks of others and try and refrain from doing so bearing in mind what Christ said about beams in our own eyes. However I think that I should ask you to consider if you are not allowing political consideratons to intrude into your spiritual outlook. You appear to deliberately introduce Obama’s second name in order to substantiate the rather disparaging way you state “who is most likely a Muslim” and will remove rights in the same way Bush willy-nilly did . This without a shred of real unopposed facts and truth.
    We need to all – myself included – make a decision, namely do we defend the faith without politics clouding the issues and alienating those we wish to win for Christ or do we enter politics and use every questionable method we can to garner votes. I son’t think we can have it both ways.
    Please don’t take this as a personal attack on you which it isn’t; it is merely that your sincerely held beliefs are damaged by the methods you use in the message you are sending out and could very possible alienate the very souls you would want to introduce Christ to.

  62. John Arthur, I am afraid that maybe you misunderstand the workings of the evil one and the way things are particularly in America. Martial law is NOT an exaggeration and is a distinct possibility. FEMA prison camps have already been built and stand empty waiting for something to take place that will give the government the “right” to imprison her own population at will. There will be no trials, but further enslavement.

    When we consider government schools, I can speak from both the American and the system found in the UK. I am a dual citizen and have in the past placed our children in both systems during my own times of ministry as a pastor.

    I do not believe that Katy and Manfred are actually very far off in their assessment of a God-hating system that seeks to teach our children, or should I say indoctrinate them. The problem is NOT just trying to undo what the school wants our children to learn and know. The reality is that if homeschooling is outlawed, then Christian schools that are unaccredited will be outlawed, then school teachers and schools that hold to any form of truth will be outlawed, and eventually parents who disagree with what their children are being taught will be forced into censure of themselves or the government will do it by whatever means necessary including the removal of the children.

    Yes, the question was how far do we go if martial law was implemented. Let me give another current example. Believers behind the Bamboo Curtain and in the 10/40 window of predominantly Muslim countries are being forced to either hide their children or lose them. Their freedoms have been reduced to the point where parents are allowed to be little more than a baby producer, then the government wants to indoctrinate those little ones. The parents must agree not to say anything to their children in contradiction to government policies or religious strictures (like Islam) or your children do not come home.

    I would also have to ask as Manfred has – how can allowing our children into such a system as willing participants actually be a Biblical pattern for godly parents to follow. i have no problem stating that I am now convinced that there are enough principles such as to train up a child that would include training up that child in every way possible. The truth is that if our children are prepared to love God, and to do all to His glory because this is what we have first taught them and they now believe, then we must protect them.

    I would ask further, if we are to do ALL to the glory of God, how does agreeing to surrender our God-given heritage to evil bring glory to God? Some have asked about the cost involved. This is not an insurmountable problem. My parents as missionaries homeschooled all six of their children. The Lord blessed their commitment and provided the means to make this possible. By the way, my mother does not have a degree and did not graduate from high school. In the British system, you simply leave school when you turn 16. We are not maladjusted. Several of us have degrees, in fact, more than one. We have been successful in various business ventures and all of us now have children we are raising to the glory of God.

    But this is the decision my parents made. It is the decision that I and all of my siblings have made to continue that path. Each person must make that decision for themselves. All I can say to conclude for now is that if we know what we are to do and do not do it, then it is sin. A person must be convicted in their own heart that the Scriptures teach they are fully responsible for their children and must act accordingly. They cannot decide because of somebody else’s decision. We will each give account for what we did with what God has blessed us with. And I for one will NOT submit to a coming law that would restrict me in any way from fulfilling my commitment to the truths of Scripture.

    I do appreciate the comments and I hope that this clarifies clearly my own position.

    The Jungle Missionary

  63. I appreciate reading your comments TJM. :)
    I *do* believe that (as I am not dispensational) true believers today make up Israel (Romans 9:6-10). So I do take the commands to teach my children constantly to heart.

    It came to mind, as I was reading TJM’s comments…what about those Christians (Corrie ten Boom’s parents and others) who defied the govt and hid Jews in their homes during Hitler’s reign? They were not obedient to the govt in those instances…but I do think it was right for them to do.

  64. Hi Jungle Missionary,

    Thanks for clarifying your position on home schooling. I did not realize that Government schools in the USA were as bad as you claim.

    I remain doubtful that martial law will be proclaimed in the USA any time in the near future but if it did come, I would support non violent resistance to evil and injustice, without actually breaking the law.

    Many thanks for your perspective.

    Shalom,
    John Arthur

  65. May I again enter a discussion which appears to be regressing into one more about a number of people taking up a position which it would appear pride will not allow them to humble re-examine in order to find Truth.
    I rather surmise that if TJM or others think that the American (or UK) School System is the worst than they have absolutely no idea of what is happening in South Africa today and possible also not in Australia.
    Please can we not elevate this discussion to the real original topic without introducing windmills to attack that we believe to be ferocious giants as Don Quixote did.
    The FEMA concentration camps do not exist.
    A glance at http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/FEMA_concentration_camps and other sites would be helpful to those who believe they do. The named site is well worth the read.
    Please ladies and gentleman can it not be seen that – setting prejudices aside – sending children to government schools can never be construed as a sin that requires repentance, being hauled before the Elders for and certainly not justification of grounds upon which to set Romans 13 aside for.
    It is my humble view – to somewhat misquote Paul in 1 Cor 14:23 – that if some unbelievers come into this site, will they not say that we are out of our minds?

  66. Jungle Missionary,

    Hello. My family is continuing to pray for you and your family and your work there in Liberia. I’ll try to be brief in my response because several things stand out in what you wrote.

    First, I am dealing with homeschool families who find themselves suddenly faced with a gov’t who has outlawed homeschooling, making homeschooling a crime. What do we do? So the stories of Daniel, Moses, Paul are relevant in that these parents today are homeschooling, yet would be forced later to send kids to school. Do we rebel? I see scriptural evidence from these stories and the what I believe fall under Romans 13, 1 Pet 2 to say: NO we do no rebel and disobey. What do we do now? I recommend everyone homeschool…however if a parent chooses not to, then they are free to make that decision. So, I disagree with your assertion that the scripture doesn’t apply…it applies effectively. Very few passages are going to be an exact fit to our situation…so of course we must meditate through it and take the eternal principals from it.

    Second, you mention several times about the responsibility to teach your child at home. Nothing stops a parent from fulfilling their Biblical responsibility to teach them the way they should go at home WHILE the kids are in school. It may be harder, but it is still totally possible. Being harder doesn’t = sinful parents.

    Third, are you at fault if your kids doesn’t accept Christ? If your kid abandons the faith is that your fault? Is it the schools fault? Is it because of all those worldly teachings and tolerances in the school’s fault? Or is it part of God’s sovereign plan for that child? So why can’t we be confident that we can teach our kids the scriptures and let God do the work when contrary views come along. If we believe in God’s sovereign election we must have confidence in these situations and not fear the impacts of the evil school, which is identical to the evil world they live in all day long.

    Fourth @Katy, @Manfred & @ Jungle Missionary…there is a logic gap you may want to respond to:

    Here is the scenario: We homeschool now.
    The gov’t outlaws homeschooling next year.
    We rebel and don’t send our kids to school.
    Gov’t comes after us.
    We flee.
    Gov’t eventually finds us a year later.
    Gov’t arrests us and we go to prison for ?? years.
    Gov’t takes our kids into custody.
    Our kids are raised in a Gov’t ophanage/foster care while we are in prison.
    Our kids are forced to attend Gov’t school.
    We now cannot teach our kids the way they should go because we are in prison.
    After xx years in prison we get out and get our kids back.
    We are under probation and forced to put our kids in gov’t school.

    How does going to prison and having our kids taken into custody meet your obligations? We aren’t talking about the outlawing of preaching Christ. At least in prison you can still preach Christ to the prison guards as you are being beaten like Richard Wurmbrand did. But going to prison over homeschooling puts your kids in a far far far far worse situation.

    Just a thought that came to me this morning. Love the discussion with you all.
    -atg

  67. Hi Katie,

    While those who hid Jews were , I think, justly disobedient to the Nazi regime, were they actually breaking a law. (I am not sure what the facts actually are here). I take Rom:13:1-7 in its broader context beginning at12:9 and ending at 13:12. Perhaps Paul is saying that it is the institution of Government that is ordered by God for our good, not every particular government. The governing authorities have been instituted by God. The rulers are meant to be God’s servants for our good, not for evil.

    We, as Christians are meant to live peaceably with all, insofar as it lies within us to do so. We are meant to overcome evil with good. Love does no wrong to one’s neighbour. We are clearly to respect the institution of government, but when a government begins to systematically murder people (as in Nazi Germany) I do not think that respect is due to such leaders . They are not filling the role of the office of Government as ordered by God. We have a duty, in such occasions, to protect such people. Love for our neighbour demands it.

    We can respect the office of Government officials but this does not mean that we necessarily obey unjust orders. Perhaps there is a case for breaking the law on such occasions, but I think it is best to seek a nonviolent solution within the framework of the law, if that is possible. I am very reticent to actually break the law, but I believe that we need to stand against injustice and oppression wherever it occurs whether that is political oppression, economic oppression, social oppression or religious oppression.

    Shalom,
    John Arthur
    ______________________________________________________
    Hi Katie,

    I agree with those who hid the Jews from the Nazis. They disobeyed the Government, but I am not sure whether they actually broke a law ( I am just not sure what the law in Germany was at that time.).

    I take Rom.13:1-7 in its broader context beginning at12:9-13:10. I think that Paul is teaching that the institution of government is ordered by God for our good and not for evil. However, governments that practise systematic muder are not acting for our good. They are a terror to bad conduct which they tehemselves instigate (as in Nazi Germany) wheras properly ordered government punishes evil and not good conduct.

    I do believe that, in the circumstances where governments are acting contrary to God’s will, we are to nonviolently resist. Paul says that we are to live peaceably with all and to love our neighbour (the one in need). It is love that fulfills the law.

    We are to respect the institution of government and give honour to whom honour is due. However, when rulers become murderers we are to resist without seeking vengeance. We should resist all forms of evil but within the framework of the law where that is possible. I would be very reluctant to break the law.

    We are called to pursue justice and champion the oppressed and to stand againt oppression wherever it occurs, whether it is political, economic, social or religious oppression, but Jesus reuires us to do so lovingly. We are called to love our enemies but this does not mean that we acquiesse in their evil.

    Shalom,
    John Arthur
    ______________________________________________________
    Hi Katy,

    I agree with you that it was right for Christians to protect Jews during the Nazi regime. They were disobeying their government, but I am not sure whether they were breaking a specific law (I am not familar with the laws existing in Nazi Germany).

    I interpret Rom:13:1-7 within the broader context of Rom.12:9-13:10. Paul points out that the institution of government is ordered by God for our good. Properly instituted government is a terror to evil but not to those who do good.

    Christians are to obey lawfully constituted governments when they conform to the will of God and act for our good. Christians are not to take the law into their own hands and seek to redress injustice through violent means. Paul says that we are to live peaceably with all.

    We are to give honour to whom honour is due and to pay our taxes. However, the Nazi regime murdered Jews . They were a terror to good and not God’s servant for good. I believe that nonviolent resistance to oppression is what is required when governments act murderously.

    Love of neighbout (the one in need) requires that we seek to protect those who are being wronged in this way and we should seek to do so within the law, if that is possible. We are not to take vengeance into our own hands.

    Resisting evil and oppression nonviolently requires us to stand for justice and oppose oppression in any form, whether that be political, economic, social or religious oppression. Above all, we are to follow Jesus’ way of compassion and peace, loving others and so fulfilling the law. As Christians, we are to live by the free and overflowing favour of God and to suffer, if needs be, for standing for what is right and not for what is wrong.

    Shalom,
    John Arthur

  68. ATG, this is exactly my point. The parents did not willingly go along. The foreign power took the children AGAINST the wishes of the parents. Maybe the best people to join this conversation would be those who have suffered for refusing to have their children taught the ways of Islam. They are being persecuted and martyred for their faith and for fighting to protect their children from the ravages of a system that blatantly hates Jesus Christ. Sadly, most of them have no access to such posts.

    Under none of the circumstances you mention do we read that the parents made the decision to “give” their children to Nebuchadnezzar or to Pharaoh. They withstood them DESPITE the law of the land until they were not given a choice. God was sovereign and protected these young men in those situations. My question further to you or to others would be, if we believe that God is sovereign (and I do believe He is sovereign) and that He can protect them in those situations, why wait for the government to outlaw homeschools, Christian schools, Bible Colleges, etc.? Why not just spend morning and night teaching your children while you put them in the school now? This way we could go ahead and stay one step ahead of the government.

    So to ask, are those parents behind the Bamboo Curtain and the 10/40 Muslim window in sin against God because they sought to keep their girls from being taken to local Islamic government mandated schools where they would be assaulted and raped because their parents are Christians? Are the parents in sin because they refuse to allow their boys to be brainwashed in government mandated schools that teach them that it is acceptable to kill all the infidels including their own parents if they do not conform to Islam? We cannot have it both ways and say they are not in sin, but that we would be if we were in a similar “government-controlled” scenario. By the way you appear to have written your comments (and some others) we must logically conclude that these people are in sin because they are in rebellion to the government that God has sovereignly allowed to remain in place.

    Thanks for your comments. In Christian love and grace,

    TJM

  69. JM, We need to stay focused on the situation in America. Once you get to discussions of 3rd world countries forcibly raping young girls and creating little terrorists with guns, everything I am talking of goes out the window. Why do we always let the pendulum swing too far in every extreme? Of course I would run for the hills if my child was being kidnapped by the gov’t and raped. These extremes are not worthy of any debate and are totally different from what my point all along has been with America’s public school system. I scratch my head greatly trying to figure out how we go from an American school that is teaching kids tolerance for homosexuals and purposefully refuting the existence of God to a school in a Muslim country where kids are being physically harmed…and these extremes do not even relate or build a case to the assertion that parents who put their kids in school are sinners called to repentance. We can’t use these extreme cases to create a Biblical mandate for homeschooling.

    When the Bible is silent on an issue such as not seeing parents deciding to allow their children to be taught by Nebby’s teachers…we should not make doctrinal distinctive around it. I guess what is so shocking to me is that the Bible mandates that we teach, lead, shepherd, discipline, and train our children, yet the Bible is silent when it comes to something such as gov’t schools or worldly schools and still it is elevated to a “Major” issue. Clearly the Bible is silent on the issue, and clearly it should be demoted to a “minor” issue, where we have grace and mercy on those that believe differently rather than be dogmatic and call those who disagree to repentance.

    in the love of Christ,
    -atg

  70. I agree that God is sovereign. And each situation has to be dealt with according to God’s grace in our lives. God has us where he has us because of his grace and he knows what it takes to get us where we need to be. Each situation and individual is different as well. We are to be led by the Holy Spirit.
    One verse in Proverbs that I love is “He who fears the LORD has a secure fortress, and for his children it will be a refuge”-Pr.14:26

    God is in complete control-sovereign and we must “seek first His kingdom and His righteousness” —FIRST

    and also remember that God’s ways are above our ways and his thoughts are above ours. As high as the heavens are above the earth so are his thoughts above ours.

    Martial law?? Well if God permits it we still Praise the Lord of glory and He is always good
    “If power is given you from above I am ready to suffer.” John 19:11-

  71. atg,

    I understand that you see what TJM used as examples to be extreme…however, when we think of the raping of the mind that can go on in public schools nowadays, it makes us want to protect our children. Do you know that although I considered myself a Christian and grew up in a Christian home that I trusted my teachers and believed their teachings on evolution. There is so many liberal agendas going through the schools today and I can not imagine allowing my children to go there and learn from some teachers who will indoctrinate them with Marxxism, evolution, pro-homosexual views.
    So, are we to only teach our children then, during *non* school hours? I believe God instructs us to be teaching them continually.

    I understand your point about fleeing, going to prison etc. I just feel that I would put up a fight as best I could.
    The govt is there to protect and do good for us. When they cross the line, that doesn’t mean we roll over and accept it. If you don’t protect your children…who will?
    I don’t want to sin against what God wants me to do….but I think doing wrong with my role as a parent is just as sinful.

    Manfred,
    I listened to your link before…but I didn’t have the time to listen to it all. I am listening to it again, now. :)

    Kindly,
    Katy

  72. Brother, I was simply using your own comments to explain my own thoughts. However, let me first say that at no point have I called anybody a sinner, nor have I called anybody here to repentance if they send their children to a government school. I have only stated what I genuinely believe are Biblical principles which are to govern what we permit for our children. I state again, “Every parent must make their own decisions based on their understanding of Scripture.”

    The pendulum ALWAYS swings to the extreme, but we are woefully unprepared for when it happens because we think it can’t possibly happen to us. Explain to the Christian parents in Germany, Denmark, Sweden, and other places in Europe today that are coming under the guidelines of the European Union laws, why they were wrong to keep their children home and in turn are now facing time in prison and/or their children have been removed by social workers.

    People, particularly in Germany, know all too well that the pendulum swings to the extreme. Either we take a stand now, or we have to keep moving the goalposts in order to match the government position. If we do not take a stand for something, we will fall for anything.

    ATG, I do NOT speak just of 3rd world countries. In my home country of England, Muslims teach children (with the approval of the God-appointed government) to accept terrorism as a means to an end – world domination by Islam. The only thing that keeps them in check apart from the hand of God is the fact that the right opportunities have not arisen for them to reveal their true colors. However, children belonging to true believers cannot be kept from their activities or their teachings. Children and parents no longer have the right in most school districts to take a stand against homosexuality. They cannot be excused from those classes because to do so promotes intolerance.

    I encourage any reader to sit down with the school principal of the local elementary school or high school and ask to have your child excused from all humanistic, atheistic, secularistic, and God-defying classes. Ask to have them excused from science class on the weeks they teach evolution. Ask for them to be excused when the literature being presented in English class is filled with sex, violence, witchcraft, and blatant disregard for the Word of God. Then come and tell me what the results are.

    Again, I would ask any reader, how does my extreme position pose any different a position than what we are talking about here – martial law and Romans 13? There are very few readers who would have even thought martial law in America was anything but a term found in science fiction 30 or 40 years ago. Today, our freedoms continue to be eroded and we keep rolling over and saying things like, “Oh, I am sure that it is for our good, and after all, we are still the best country in the world.” That is exactly what they said AND believed in Germany in 1933. In less than 6 years, the world was at war again, and German citizens went from being forced to send their children to government schools to turning a blind eye to the mass murder of 6 million Jews. Why? Because few took a stand, even in the churches. They did not think it could or would happen to them.

    When the morals of a country go down the drain, and we force our children to be taught the new morality is acceptable, and our God is actually just a figment of our imaginations, then we must be prepared to accept the inevitable consequences. You mention extremes but used three extreme cases to support your own position. If I recall, you stated that you believe that a parent that is in rebellion to the authority by refusing to put their children in government school would be sinning. By implication, those parents must then be prepared to repent. Yet, my dear friend, you stated the exact opposite for those of us like Manfred who believe the contrary – namely, if a parent willingly places their children in a government school that they should repent. However, you said that we cannot “be dogmatic and call those who disagree to repentance.” You cannot have it both ways. It appears you have, in your own way, made it a major issue but just on the other swing of the pendulum.

    You said the Bible is silent on the issue of homeschooling, and yet I believe the principles that govern my own beliefs are clearly taught in Scripture, whereas, apart from some extreme cases that would involve extremes just like the cases I mentioned, the Bible does not give the parent the leeway to abandon their mandates to teach their own children. The Bible does not grant permission anywhere to turn over our children to the government to teach whatever they will. No such case can be presented as it is but assertions.

    I believe the bottom line is this. We will give account for what we do with our children. Each person must be able to answer for themselves whether they can with good conscience turn their child over to a godless society or not. The answers will not be easy ones, but then neither are the questions. I am convinced that one day martial law could and probably will come to the west. We are not exempt from persecution and times of tribulation. History always repeats itself and the only thing we seem to learn is that we never learn from history.

    Have enjoyed the conversations as it forces us to consider what and why we believe what we do. I believe it also helps us to formulate our own thoughts as to what we should do when the time comes where we may have to flee or stand and face the lions. However, I do not read in any books that early believers willingly gave themselves over or turned themselves over to the government to put in the arena. I do not recall any history books that reveal a single person who volunteered to be lion food for the afternoon. When they were caught, only then did God give those people dying grace. I hope and pray that I will live by my convictions no matter what comes, even one day, if it may mean death. For to me to live is Christ, but to die will be great gain!

    With much Christian love and grace,

    TJM

    PS – John Arthur, I personally know two people who have been to at least two locations that are designated as FEMA locations. By the way, the Germans and Poles didn’t believe that concentration and death camps existed either until it was too late. Then as long as it did not personally affect them, they refused to speak up even while the stench and smoke of death rolled past their noses.

  73. My dear brothers and sisters. I am fatigued and cannot continue this conversation any longer. My heart is near discouragement. The direction of the discussion is too far off track of what I was ever trying to bring our feeble minds to think through. I am blessed by the thoughtful and passionate comments and discussion. My faith, as always, has been greatly challenged and I value you all for this. My opinion ultimately remains prayerfully unchanged, but greatly challenged.

    May we all agree in the grace and mercy of our God of which he has lavished us daily – in spite of our falling miserably short of His holiness and perfection. Praise be to him that we do not show up on judgement day dressed in our own works, but the finished work of the one for whom He sent to die in our place, bringing reconciliation for sinful man to our holy and infinite God! His steadfast love will shine on us forever because of who HE is. Amen?

    Abiding through His grace alone.

  74. ATG-
    Your comments have been a blessing to me. I don’t have anything to add about homeschooling vs public schools. I just wanted to tell you that you have been a comfort to me, and the sweet savor of the Lord Jesus Christ is evident in your comments, imo. I will say amen to your last paragraph. God bless.

  75. Hi Katy,

    You seem to be very worried about some teachers indoctrinating children with Marxism. evolution and pro homosexual views. Things must be pretty bad in tghe USA, if this is true. I think we should distinguish between indoctrination (which I am opposed to) and educating people with facts.

    For example, biology classes teach the biological theories of macro and micro evolution but I would be very concerned if a teacher was promoting evolutionism which is a philosophical theory that goes beyond the scientific data.

    As for Marxism, it would be okay to teach it in the context of history lessons on the rise and fall of communism for say year 12 students, but it would not be okay to to promote it as a world view that we should adhere to. The latter would be indoctrination.

    A level headed discussion of sexuality in health science classes would be appropriate if facts were adhered to and this could include a discussion on homosexuality but it would not be okay to promote such a lifestyle in the classroom.

    I have taught in Government high schools in Australia (My specialties are mathematics and economics) and I do not think that Marxism, evolutionism or homosexuality were or are promoted. Of course everyone has philosophical biases but most teachers I have encountered try hard to keep their philosophical biases out of the classroom.

    Shalom,
    John Arthur

  76. Dear Abiding Through Grace,

    A hearty Amen!!!!

    Standing ONLY in the righteousness of Christ my Savior!

    It’s alright Todd, you can awake from your slumber:)

    In the everlasting, lovingkindness of Christ, charisse

  77. John Arthur, if things in Australia are as you say, then you are blessed. England and America both have school systems whereby Marxism, socialism, humanism, evolution, and tolerance of homosexuality are all openly promoted by teachers and the system itself. Here at DefCon, we stand unashamedly for the account of creation as found in Genesis 1-3 which means that we stand opposed to theory of evolution.

    Schools in the US and in the UK are not permitted to teach the account of creation, nor can teachers openly take a stand on the Word of God, nor can they take a stand against sin such as fornication and homosexuality. Children in these systems ARE most definitely being indoctrinated by a a system that hates God because the governments that back these systems are also God-hating institutions.

    ************
    ATG, while I do not believe that we are as far off track as you seem to think it has gone, we ALL can project a position, if we are not careful, that does not exhibit humility and grace. Each of us have a conviction, some stronger than others.

    I believe that you have the right to your position which you believe is Biblically supported just as Manfred, Katy, and myself do on the other side. In either case, I believe that as one commenter noted, Romans 14 comes right after Romans 13. Romans 14 deals with what we consider to be a Baptist Distinctive which is individual soul liberty.

    Some, on a different note, would believe that for them to own and have a television in their home would be a sin, while others may not have a problem with one in every room. It is not within my remit to dictate which person is correct. The same must be true when it comes to how we teach our children: traditional, Christian, homeschool, classical, blended approach, etc. I am thankful that I only have to give account for my own decisions, not yours or anybody elses. The only conclusion that I believe we can safely reach is that when we know what we are to do, regardless of the conseuqences, and we do not do that thing, the Bible makes it clear that is sin.

    As feeble minded individuals who have been saved by grace, we must be ready always to give a reason of the hope that is in us with meekness and fear. Not one of us will give account, nor will any one of us be able to make the decisions for another’s family. My prayer will remain that when that day comes that we must take a stand that we will be prepared to accept whatever our Sovereign Lord has ordained that we must go through. Whether prison or freedom, life or by death, we are the Lord’s and for that we can be thankful. His mercies are new every morning, and great is His faithfulness. I fail so many times but He forgives.

    May we all be humbled before God and learn to be Berean Christians who search the Scriptures daily to see whether what we are being taught is truly Scripture, and not merely opinion or doctrines of men.

    Again, in Christian love and grace,

    TJM

  78. I agree, wholeheartedly, TJM. :)
    ATG, (and others) thank you for this discussion and for helping me to spend time in serious thought and prayer about this issue! :)

    Kindly,
    Katy

  79. Dear The Jungle Missionary,

    A hearty Amen too!!!

    I want to apologize to Manfred and sweet Katy because in my earnest desire to not cause a stumbling block for some of the brethren I was unwittingly causing a stumbling block for them.

    They are convinced in their hearts that to do other than homeschool would be sin so for them to argue otherwise would be sin.

    I have learned a valuable lesson. No more debating on non essentials for me. (It is my own stumbling block:) But I will stick with the encouragement of the saints. You can’t go wrong in that arena!!!

    “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.” Galatians 5:22-23

    Onward in Christ Jesus, charisse

  80. It would appear, for which the Lord must be praised, that this particular discussion appears to be tailing of, but unfortunately with everybody apparently unmoved from their original positions by anything read here.
    Why it should have come into my mind as I was about to log off I have no idea but it would seem to me that, yes, while we will all have to give an account one day there appears to be one particular area upon which the focus will fall denoting where we were really at during our sojourn in this foreign place. I exclude the obligation laid upon us by the great Commission with which Matthew concludes his gospel and focus instead on the questions to be asked on that final day regarding the feeding of the hungry, the hospitality towards strangers, the clothing of those that need it, the visiting of the sick and the coming to those in prison.
    I’d say that attending to Matthew 28 and these matters found in Matthew 25 to the degree that they deserve would leave the average Christian little time to debate the minor issues of where their children should be educated and, I very strongly believe, would be an example set which children would follow the rest of their days.
    Just I thought I felt constrained to add before I thank all who have so passionately taken part in this debate and especially ATG for the tone, manner, courtesy and patience he has unfailingly displayed.

  81. Another Pilgrim,

    I must disagree with you. I think the matter of educating our children is not a minor issue…at all. I believe the issues of feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, caring for the sick etc. are all vital issues and things we can (and should) attend to. However, **overlooking** other vital things…such as how to properly train up our children… is concerning. In a country where those considered in “poverty” have cell phones and cable TV, it is difficult to completely tend to the things you mention. Of course, we serve, help and care for those in need as well as make donations to those with less…however, to focus on that and fluff off our responsibilities as parents is unbiblical and outright wrong. Not all are called out to the mission field as TJM is. I am on the mission field of being a Godly wife and mother. It’s my duty to raise up a faithful generation. To say that is a minor issue is offensive. I don’t mean to sound unkind…but firm. I think too many shirk their responsibilities as parents these days and you can see how things suffer in the world because of it.

    Kindly,
    Katy

  82. I think what Another Pilgrim was saying that it does not edify the body of Christ when Christians argue amongst themselves whether we should homeschool or not. In my opinion.

  83. What about paying taxes to a government that uses said taxes to fund infanticide…..abortion. Easy to boycott Pepsi, etc…..should we boycott….not pay taxes…..to a country to funds abortions?

  84. Just wondering if you all had heard about how Delaware’s Senate Bill Outlaws spanking. Here is the article: http://www.hslda.org/hs/state/de/201206260.asp
    Here is another way the gov’t steps in and tries to take over the parental control. We are biblically suppose to train up and discipline our children (which includes spanking). So, would you obey this law?

    Ron,
    Yes, you pay taxes. Taxes do go to pay for other things as well and we are to do what we are told. It is not anti-biblical to pay our taxes (actually, it would be wrong to NOT pay them). Those who put it towards the wrong things will be held accountable.

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