108 Comments

Once More – with Feeling! “Government Education is Evil!”

I know – our (unregenerate) children are to be sent into the world’s system of “education” to be salt and light; ignoring the context which tells us it is Christians – not unsaved children of Christians – who are to be godly influences in the culture.

EDIT – for clarification: I think that if children are converted and have a credible witness of saving faith, AND a desire to contend for the faith in a government school, that’s a fine decision for parents and the child to make. At some point, every Christian will enter into the world and must know how to live for the glory of God while participating in a worldly system that is hateful toward God. The MAIN point of this article and book and video is to warn parents that the government school system IS evil and not to be deceived nor ignorant about that. Our children are more valuable than saving money and their spiritual welfare is our highest priority in their lives.

I know – we all pay taxes for the government school and it would be dumb to not get any return on that money; ignoring the fact that government schools are moral agents that indoctrinate all children into a worldly, humanistic worldview that is hateful towards God.

All the while, we sit in silent defiance of God’s commands that we who are His train up our children in godliness, in the fear and admonition of our Lord – praying that they might be saved and that, regardless of anything else, He would be glorified by and in our service.

To help Christians understand what it as stake, here’s an 8 minute video and free 600 page ebook. May God have mercy on us!

About Stuart Brogden

Reformed Baptist, married to one woman since 1978, enjoy camping, motorcycle riding, solid books that assist in understanding the Word of God, fellowship with the Lord's saints, and some classical music. A wretch saved by grace, with nothing to give my Lord except my sin. Desire to make the gospel known and shepherd some of the Lord's sheep.

108 comments on “Once More – with Feeling! “Government Education is Evil!”

  1. Until people’s eyes are opened…many don’t see the need for homeschooling. I wouldn’t have it any other way for our family….and I truly despise the day anyone tells me I have to send my children to the public school…for it *will* be a fight.

  2. Amen, Katy. My own grown children – who were home schooled – do not yet see the need to do so with their own children. I pray they “get it” before their children are born.

  3. I think, once your children are born and you realize:
    1. the amount of time public school takes them away from you
    2. the completely un-Christian-ness of public schools
    3. the horrible behavior of many of their peers (and some of the public school teachers)
    …it helps bring to light why they should be with you, at home, to learn.
    Manfred, have you seen InDoctriNation? I think it’s on youTube if you want to show your children…or I can send you my copy. It is such an eye-opener!

    OH~ also..Manfred, I don’t know if you remember that we were having trouble finding a Reformed church in our area….after prayer (lots of it)…God dropped an answer right at our doorstep, literally! I won’t explain it all here, as it is totally off subject from the post…..but I wanted you to know we have found a wonderful, reformed church…most families there homeschool and the preacher does expositions of scripture at each service. It is feeding our souls immensely! Praise God!!!!

  4. Katy – I have a copy of Indoctrination (love the ending!) and you are spot-on in your three points of government schools. I bought copies of Voddie Baucham’s DVD – “The Children of Caesar”, http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=7LDDLGNX
    Praise the Lord that He led you to a Reformed church! The Word of God proclaimed – good nourishment for the souls of the saints.

  5. We homeschool, and homechurch, for the same reasons!

  6. Having church in a home is fine – but gathering Christians in a home without the order and structure defined in Scripture (elders, for starts) is not “church”.

  7. We should not be overly paranoid. I am a big advocate of homeschooling and did home school for one year, which I would not trade. But. For circumstances I will not get into I had to send my child to school. He was in a Christian school and now public. Since many people put their unruly kids in private school to discipline them, it was not always a great choice for my child. He actually thought the kids were nicer in public school. His teachers are excellent.
    I know homeschoolers that should NOT be homeschooling, it’s more like NO schooling and I wonder if the kids will be able to function as adults when they graduate. Not all homeschooling is good. In addition, school is sometimes the only place kids get a hot meal before returning to a life of poverty or abuse.
    I think we need to be careful to have the extreme “them versus us” mentality. Our children will have to live in the world yet not be of the world, and it’s the parents jobs to raise them to be on the lookout for things like drugs,propaganda, sex, ect. Often both parents must work to put food on the table also especially in this economy.

  8. So, Manfred, since you feel that public school is evil, and you highly recommend IndoctriNation, do you then believe – as the producer of the video does – that parents who send their children to public school are in sin and should be subject to church discipline?

  9. Indeed – we should not be paranoid at all! You are correct – home schooling is not a “silver bullet”. We should never put our faith in a system or institution – no church or school can do the work we most desperately need that only God can do.

    My children went to government schools later in their education – when my wife and I were convinced they could stand the test. This also fit within our child rearing scheme of providing wider and deeper responsibilities for them as they aged, so they could live in the world when they left home.

    No Christian should be condemned by putting their children in a government school, but no Christian should deceive himself into thinking the government school is morally neutral. Parents must work much harder to give a Christian education to those who have been trained by Caesar.

    It is a sad state when taxes (in myriad forms in countless ways), coupled with and all-too-common tendency to live beyond one’s means puts such a strain on marriages. This is but one reason the local ecclesia is so important to our spiritual well being.

  10. The problem is most parents don’t even question what their kids are learning and rarely communicate with the teachers. They expect the school to raise their kids and teach them how to think. Wrong. Teach your kids how to think at home so that when they go to school they have discernment. I taught my child all about global warming, the UN and global govt. at home, when the teachers at his school bring up propaganda about climate change and the UN being necessary for world peace, my child already knows it’s baloney and then we talk about it.

  11. Well said Manfred.

  12. 072591,

    Short answer, yes and no. Liberty of Conscience is a concept we must embrace, lest one man puts himself place of God regarding another. I think sending children to government schools is sinful, but doing so does not warrant church discipline. Those who struggle with this and do the best they can should be encouraged and assisted by their church.

    I do think, however, that parents who refuse to educate their children in the doctrines of God warrant discipline. Government schooling makes that job much more difficult.

  13. Manfred,

    You said:
    I think sending children to government schools is sinful,
    My reply:
    I think that is ridiculous.

    You should not be guilt-tripping parents that MUST send their kids to public school. You are putting an unnecessary yoke around their necks. You may think it’s sinful for you to do that, but for me, it’s been a great thing and a blessing.

  14. sueliz1 – I am not trying to “guilt-trip” anyone. It’s a plain fact that government schools are moral change agents that are hateful toward God. Those who have little resources should be helped but not told that such schooling is “OK” without any warnings or training about how to counter the indoctrination they provide.

  15. Mr. and Mrs Jones are barely scraping by. They must both work to pay the mortgage. After paying the heat and electric bill, they barely have enough for food and must shop at 2nd hand stores for clothes for their children. They help fill their pantry at the local food pantry in town. It is impossible for them to home school. You are telling me they are in sin, for sending their kids to school? Where are they supposed to get resources so they can homeschool? Go on welfare and food stamps? When you can barely get by, public school has to be “OK.” The average Joe, will not “warn” them it is not ‘OK’. They are in survival mode and not sinning for sending their kids to school.

  16. Manfred: Here’s my confusion about your stance. If it is sinful for parents to send their children to public school, how can it be a matter of Christian liberty? Further, if it is sin, then those parents ARE living in unrepentant sin and how can that not be a matter of church discipline – especially when that “sin” is causing their children to “sin”?

    That is the logic of the producer of “IndoctrinaNation” used – I have not seen the movie, but I did listen to the interview where he made these explicit claims. And that is logically consistent.

    Now, if you stated that it is merely not a good idea, and the bulk of your post seems to be saying just that, then that would make sense as a stance of Christian liberty; “It’s a bad idea and here’s why it is not profitable.” But you called public schools evil and sin, which would put it out of the realm of considering it a matter of Christian liberty.

  17. Not enough information – which would be available in a church which has deacons discharging their God-given responsibilities. How big is the house and how much is their mortgage? What does their budget look like – where does their money go and how does their spending compare with their earnings?

    You tell me – does being poor make sending small children to a God-hating immoral education system a good thing?

  18. I know a poor family that homeschools. I fear for their future. These kids would have more opportunities in their lives if they were in school. Their school year sometimes starts in late November, because they cant afford the books to homeschool. And you think this is good?

  19. 072591,

    I’ll try make my position more clear. When Daniel and his kin were taken to Babylon, they knew that was a pagan (evil) culture yet they stayed put. They didn’t have any choice. I cannot think of Christian parents in the USA who can claim to be in a similar position. Yet our cultures education system is just as corrupt and evil and that of Babylon. Those who think sending their children is “OK” are denying the danger to their children and likely subject to discipline; those who recognize the danger and are doing their best to counter it have no reason to face discipline – only help.

  20. sueliz1,

    Examples of extremes abound – and are never a good case for establishing rules.

  21. Again, I think your claim that parents who send their kids to public school are likely for discipline.You simply can NOT be so black and white.
    There are parents that MUST send their kids to public school for many reasons. It is not “all evil.” My child’s school is great and the Vice Principal a Christian. My child’s education is not “babylonian”. You are way off.

    I meant to say I STRONGLY DISAGREE that parents will be disciplined for sending their kids to school. I’m actually appalled you are writing this and will end my discussion on this thread.

    Just as a side note before I exit, my child learned about global warming and how wonderful the UN was in Christian school, NOT public.

  22. sueliz1 – the fact that there may be a school in a city that is NOT the norm (evil) is (a) wonderful and (b) a commonly held perception of parents everywhere.

    Again – I have repeatedly stated that parents who blithely send their children to government schools and do not make efforts to train them up the ways of God are the ones who should face discipline. Those who send their children to government schools and work to train their kids rightly in the fear of the Lord should be encouraged to not grow weary in well doing – while staying on guard for the moral training the government school does provide.

    Christians in the system – and I know a few – cannot change the system from evil to good.

    I’ve never said the government schools had the market cornered on misinformation. Your last comment adds nothing to the conversation.

  23. Parents who send their kids to school and are not training them at home in godliness, are usually not Christian!! So you are saying non-Christians will be disciplined? That doesn’t really fit, does it? It is Christians who are disciplined.
    I’m sorry, I just don’t agree with your thinking and reasoning. No sense debating it.
    Blessings.
    Sue

  24. sueliz1 – if those parents are members of a church, they are subject to discipline. The chaff grows with the wheat, remember? Each church should do its best to admit only regenerate folk to membership, but we do not see the soul.

  25. Manfred, Manfred, Manfred…

    Jesus builds His “church” (your word not His) He adds to it, He keeps His, just as He did in the Old Covenant and does in the New Covenant. You are blessed as far as I can see, to have a fellowship lead by Voddie. Few have that option. The majority are left with “change agents” running “churches”! I don’t have a good public school option where I live, nor do I have a good private school option where I live. I am a degreed educator, and am a functioning elder both within my own home and in my local community. You violate many more scriptures then you keep with your flippant answer to my simple statement regarding homeschooling and home churching.
    I am the husband of but one wife, I have one child remaing at home at this time, with another graduating as an engineer next month from a church school (what a joke their religion is there, but hey they function as the 501(c) 3 that says they are such, with elders and everything.! My son is tearing up in bible quizzing, and takes 9th grade honors/pre-IB classes as an 8th grader, and is a walking talking witness for Jesus, as is my lovely spouse, and for the most part we are doing well, even though son is only 7 months out from brain surgery, and our only tribulation comes from “christian” folks sitting in pews spouting flippant remarks to how we worship our Lord! I will remind you that many godly men in scripture did not attend the religious ritual you call church, but worshipped Him in spirit and truth where He lead them! Nor would they submit themselves to your “church disclipine!” Man, are you trying to take Corem Deo’s seat. or what?!?! LOL
    Remember who it was that exposed his hypocracy with pictures? I still love and appreciate you brother, but you have no idea what shoes I walk in, and am standing in Him who is able to keep me standing!
    http://bible.cc/romans/14-4.htm
    http://biblebrowser.com/romans/14-1.htm

  26. Mickey, Mickey, Mickey…

    The Word of God clearly shows elders (more than one) being appointed in churches – by Apostles and then later by elders. Just because there are many false churches and many that have man-made practices doesn’t change what the Bible says about how the local church ought be. How can Matthew 18, 1 Cor 5, and the other myriad Scriptures that advise a local assembly to through a bum out apply if there’s no sense of togetherness (membership) in that local assembly?

    I agree with you about 501(c)3 – ain’t needed and can be a train wreck.

    What Scriptures did I violate with my short (not flippant) reply to your first comment?

  27. sueliz1…I know you said you are leaving the conversation but in case you stop by to read this…I just want to say that the words you speak could be the exact ones my parents could’ve said when I was in school.
    I am a product of the public school system….ingrained with the teaching of evolution (despite creation taught at home) as well as what was then, the biggest highlight to me, my peers. My parents thought all was okay…yet there is so much that I did that they still don’t know about. God drew me out of my sinful mire and I am forever grateful….however, I live in such regret of my past. I will *never* send my children to public school.

    We do *not* have a lot of money…actually, we are considered “poor” by the gov’t. But we make it work on one income. Did you know that most people that are “poor” have cell phones, television programming, the internet and more? The rest of the world who really is living in poverty would LOVE our version of “poor”. There are **plenty** of free and useful teaching sources to homeschool your children….a public library is one of them. If the folks are Christians and truly desire to homeschool…the church could help with it, as well. Maybe the father would have to get a second job? There are lots of options to help folks if they truly feel they should do something. God provides. I know there are single parents who really have no other option…there are, of course, extreme cases where there is no other way out of it (but that is not the norm).

    I don’t mean to sound cruel, but truly, it sounds like a lot of excuses are being introduced so that parents can flake on their God-given responsibility. I say this all in kindness and love and wish you all the best, truly. I just wanted to warn you, as a fellow Christian, that your thinking sounds a lot like most parents who send their children to public school.

  28. Did you read the one at the bottom of my post?
    I’m just having a little fun at your expense, please forgive me! LOL
    Elders are grown and not by appointment, and they function that way with or without a title. The whole purpose of the system is to organize those which aren’t in and of themselves organized. In a small gathering of the Lord’s elect, it makes little sense to hand out badges if you will, and in a larger gathering, it helps for a while, but when you reach 200?!?! I can see little control in this age. As there is no real relationships and accountability till things get beyond control.
    So when 2 or 3 are gathered in His name, is it not your concept of a church? Should we appoint elders deacons etc? Too much focus on forms and traditions, and very little discipling going on.
    Whether you believe it or not, there are LOTS of mature believers who follow Jesus as Lord oiutside of the confines of the church system, which is not what Jesus ordained, He ordained the gathering of “called out ones” and through the Apostles established order, but never with anyone else as head but Jesus, and the teachingwas by the Holy Spirit, with faithful undershepherds (including deacons, elders, teachers) functioning as servants pouring out their lives as the least of men serving all for the call of the Lord…This today is nearly nonexistant, and in their day, was already being abused to the point of grevious error. Remember, no heresy nor apostasy ever entered a fellowship except by the elders directly or elders allowing it to happen. Blind guides and blind leaders of the blind are apt descriptions then and much more so today. “My sheep know My voice and in NO WAY will follow another.” As the harlot religious system increases its persecution of the saints you too will be forced to adjust your gathering as well friend, should the Lord tary.
    It was the churches that allowed the government to usurp the responsibilities of their calling, and it ain’t coming back! Does your fellowship offer education to the young in your comunity as an alternative to public education? If not, why not?! Better to mission the young of your community for free then to aid governments around the world with vast mission programs in my opinion. Since the public schools are what they are, and you see it so well, why are you not fighting for free christian education for your community through your church, and supporting it with your servant heart and income to make up for what others don’t have…”and they were in one accord and shared everything so that there was no lack…”

    ____________________________________________________________________

    We agree more then we disagree on this, Manfred, you just don’t have the benefit of walking in my shoes. This is the sort of thing I must deal with, pretty much alone in my community, pretty much continuously…
    http://www.rlaerie.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=18&Itemid=30
    I would encourage everyone to homeschool, for if you do not, the price you will pay is far greater then the cost you will save!
    Manfred, you homeschooled, yet your children do not see the value in it for their children? (This is in no way meant to be a questioning of your ability or anything like that, I just hoped you would elaborate on where you feel the disconnect occured with them, for I too will have adult children soon enough.)

  29. Thanks for your kind reply, Mickey. My grown children are slowly moving to seeing the benefit of educating their (future) children – my wife and I continue to pray for them in this (and other) regard.

    That “Easter Drop” is a sad reminder of what too many “churches” do. sigh Maranatha!

    That video is hilarious – a home school “freak” (normal person) from our church showed that to me a while back.

  30. Manfred,
    You said that sending children to government schools was sinful. You also said you sent your children later when they were older. Is it sinful at one point and not another? This has me a little confused.

  31. And herein lies the problem with written communication. And human pride doesn’t help to retain the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace. I’m sure we all agree that:

    1) The public school is not a Christian institution. Worse, it is of the world, and often, very often, presents it’s anti-Christian worldview to the captive audience that sit in the desks, and are required to learn and be tested on what they learn from the instructors.

    2) It is the Christian parent’s responsibility to train up their children, to the best of their ability, in the ways of the Lord, and to educate them in the truths of His Word.

    3) There are many who are not able to homeschool their children, and are thus required to send their children to the public school. That does not negate their responsibility in point 2.

    4) Those who are able to homeschool their children are responsible to provide them with an adequate education which will allow them to function well in society and the workplace. And still not be lax on point #2.

    Agreed?

    Mickey:
    Your snarky slam on your Christian brother Coram Deo is unwarrented, unnecessary, and outright sinful, and you need to repent.

  32. Ky gal,

    When we sent them to the government schools, we were in a church that did not know nor practice discipline, nor would have thought anything wrong in sending children to one OR failing to to train their children – for that is the church’s job. Apart from the past comment, we were in agreement.

    Now, I do see a legitimate argument for sending older children who have a credible witness of regeneration into government schools, if they wish to enter into that warfare. In this, I do not agree with my elders.

  33. So it was still sin when you did so, you just didn’t think so at the time (ignorant is the word I am thinking of but it sounds mean-maybe unaware is better), nor did your church, is that correct?

  34. Upon more reflection on my part, I think I should have clearly stated at the beginning that I think it is sin to send children into a den of wickedness if they are not able or willing to defend themselves and contend for the faith. My elders would never think it acceptable to send Christian children to a government school, but do not discipline parents for doing so.

  35. Ok, thank you. Who determines whether the child is able to contend for the faith? Would elders, church or parents have a vote equally?

  36. Parents are the ones. Some churches are heavy handed – a violation of the principles of proper leadership as revealed in Scripture.

  37. So it would be the job of the parents to educate their children, despite what their particular church teaches? In other words, if your elders see homeschool as the only option, but you have no problem with sending them when they are older, then your children would abide by your wishes, correct? Or, if your church has no particular say in the matter, then you would educate your children in the best way you see fit? You could go against the elders, either way, because in the end as a parent, you have the final say so. Am I understanding correctly?

  38. Manfred said “Having church in a home is fine – but gathering Christians in a home without the order and structure defined in Scripture (elders, for starts) is not “church”.

    This is not exactly true Manfred. There was a church on Crete before Paul sent Titus there to appoint elders, and there are no indiciations that there were elders in Corinth. Church is the people – of course there should be elders when the local church gathers, but to use air quotes is uncalled for as the Church are the people even if their are no elders established yet.

    In Christ -jim

  39. Yes, because elders do not rule the families in the church; they shepherd the members. On non-essential matters, no division. For children who are unregenerate or unwilling to contend, sending them to government schools would be red flag that would (rightly) lead to discipline if the parents were not training the children in God’s Word. The same responsibility is in place for older children, but if they have a credible witness of saving faith and want to contend, I think that is a decision for the child and the parents. My elders would disagree but see it as rightful exercise or parental responsibility; with no place for an elder to try and overrule.

  40. Thank you for your patience in answering my questions.

  41. ‘Tis good for soul, as the Lord sanctifies us in these matters. You – and the others who questioned me – helped me in my walk with the Lord! For His glory and the good of His people.

  42. My son goes to public schools. I know they are corrupt but I’ve never had the financial means. I don’t fret about it as I know God when He reaches down to an individual can change their hearts no matter what situation they were/ are in. Public Schools are horrible with their egalitarian beliefs. I get frustrated with their strange policies at times~

    I’m just a nobody who relies on the LORD more than money and knows that He is all wise, all powerful, all knowing in complete control and everywhere at the same time.

    I believe in what his word says and pray for my son every day.

    I know many families who raise their children well, home-school them, great education mind you. But when they are out on their own live like the devil. There’s no guarantee either way. That doesn’t mean we should not try and give them the very BEST we can. But we cannot change their hearts either way.

  43. Amen, Linda and may the Lord bless you for taking your responsibilities seriously AND because your faith is real.

  44. Thank you David W for your opinion on my “snarky slam” on Corem Deo.
    I will consider your suggestion. It would have been better accepted by me had he handled his hypocricy public as well, with repentence and not tried to hide his double standard, and my proof of such… Perhaps you are not fully aware of the situation, or his continuous snarky attitude of the past here. Perhaps also I should have left the “sleepnig dog lie.”
    I did appreciate his work here at this blog, but not his two sets of grace one for him, and quite another for his victims

    I apologize to any and all who may be offended by my Corem Deo comments, including Corem Deo himself. “Two wrongs don’t make a right…
    .” Except in the case of our children, as both have turned out well for my lovely bride and I.

  45. Dear Katy,
    I think you have me all wrong sister. I am not making excuses or flaking my responsibility as a parent.
    I agree wholeheartedly with Linda. There are no guarantees either way, homeschooling or public.She really expressed what I was getting at.
    Why is there a stigma with the “pastor’s kid?” Because they go crazy exploring when they leave the nest. They feel so restrained and kept in a box, their choices feel forced and not chosen. You can teach kids the best of the best and godly too, and sometimes they just don’t choose it. We can’t choose faith for our kids either. We can show them the way, but only they can believe. The Lord doesn’t have “grandchildren.” Only sons and daughters that believe.

    One of the conditions we had in putting my child in public was that he must be very involved in his youth group. Thankfully it is a good one and he loves it and wouldn’t miss it for anything. These kids also attend public and so it will give him a good group to associate with surrounded by peer pressure.
    I don’t know of anyone who did not do dumb things growing up, even living in godly homes and homeschooled. It’s the whole “what’s out there?” question. I’m not surprised you hid things from your parents.Again, I don’t know anyone who was an open book with their parents all through high school! Do you think you can keep your kids from every danger and bad experience because they’re homeschooled? You can’t. At some point, we need to let go and let them start to choose. When they choose wrongly, they have to learn there is a consequence for every action, spiritually and physically and emotionally. In the mean time, we feed them with the Word and surround them with a godly environment and show them why to choose rightly. And we pray for them daily and pray together as a family.
    Blessings.
    Sue

  46. sueliz and linda- I gotta agree with you both…good points made by you sisters. It is not a sin not to home school, if so, where would I find this in God’s word? Is it a sin to buy a car/truck from Ford, who supports homosexuality? We have to remember we live in a fallen world, sin lurks at every corner. We must teach our children according to God’s word, but we cannot live under a rock either. To home school or not to home school is a personal decision made by the parents according to their situation/circumstances. Being a single parent, it is impossible for me to home school because I work and because of my financial situation. If I were a ‘stay at home’ mom, then that would change my decision. Am I in sin because I do not home school? Absolutely not, I do teach God’s word, which is what the Bible commands us to do. Home schooling/education is a personal decision, not a biblical mandate.

  47. I don’t know that *not* homeschooling would be a sin exactly….but I do know that there is nothing anyone could do that would convince me to hand my children over to the state education system for 6-8 hrs/day of their life.
    I don’t know how your youth group is…but my children won’t be attending that either. My Children get their Christian view points from home and the Bible….not the youth group. No matter how good the teaching (which is usually lacking anyway)…. many teens in the youth group are acting just as secular as the world…lusts of the flesh, dressing inappropriately and more.
    We don’t live under a rock. I guess you can say that I am protecting my children from the world, training them in righteousness as long as I can.
    I just hear the same thing, that you all have said, from other Christian parents all the time…and that they want their children to be a *light* to the school. Everyone wants to believe their children will be different…they will be the exception. I pray your children are untainted by the public school system…each of you, truly.

  48. And I chime in as well with my agreement with unworthy1, Sueliz and Linda.

    “We can’t choose faith for our kids either. We can show them the way, but only they can believe. The Lord doesn’t have “grandchildren.” Only sons and daughters that believe.” Amen sueliz.

    “I don’t fret about it as I know God when He reaches down to an individual can change their hearts no matter what situation they were/ are in.” Me too, Linda. No fretting…a lot of praying.

    “We must teach our children according to God’s word, but we cannot live under a rock either.”
    Amen sister.

    “All the while, we sit in silent defiance of God’s commands that we who are His train up our children in godliness, in the fear and admonition of our Lord – praying that they might be saved and that, regardless of anything else, He would be glorified by and in our service.”

    Are you saying that we are sitting in silent defiance of God’s commands to train our children in godliness by sending kids to public schools? (Unless older and willing to evangelize.) That unless we do not do that, (send to public schools) we are in rebellion, or silent defiance, towards God’s command to teach our children about Him?

  49. Everyone has an opinion about how your child should be raised, and we each want our own decisions validated by people making different decisions! I find parenting hard enough without getting judged for my choices.

    This is why my husband and I have a policy that our parenting decisions are not made by a committee. We read, listen and take in other viewpoints, then we decide what to do based on the needs of our family. No excuses, no rationalizations, just solid decision making. While others may disagree, I guarantee you we know what is best for our family. Now is not the time to decide I don’t know how to parent the kids when I am in the middle of it!

    All of the above women had excellent points and I have no judgement at all for anyone who public schools, home schools or private schools. Each parent has to decide what is best for their family. And each kid requires something different! It’s exhausting just thinking about it. I am not parenting to an audience where I get voted off the island if I don’t do it right. God has given me the responsibility of training up my children, not other mothers in my social circle.

    After my inquisition of Manfred, I understand the point he was making and I appreciate the message. I don’t have to agree with every point to understand the point being made.

  50. There have been many times over the years that I have let a back and forth discussion drop, seeing that it’s not going to go anywhere, and the person engaging me appears to have no interest in the truth of God’s word. This is a different matter. My sincere apologies to Manfred and Pilgrim, for this is quite off the main topic of this thread. But sin is being committed against a brother in Christ here, and I won’t let this go.

    Mickey,
    Your continued derogatory remarks toward a man no longer here to defend himself is even more grevious than before. Your insinuation that he is unrepentant for sins you still hold against him, and for which the Lord shed His precious blood to fully forgive him, is sin on your part. Perhaps you’ve missed the many times he has apologized for any offenses he may have made. Or that he publicly denounced his sometimes caustic remarks. Or that he publicly (again) referred to himself very repentantly as a “recovering caustic Calvinist”. Your remarks lifting up yourself twice now as the one who “proved” him wrong smacks of arrogance and pride on your part. Your accusations of him having two sets of grace (one for himself and one for his “victims”) is not only unjust and unrighteous, it’s bearing false witness. And against a fellow brother, no less!!! I can personally testify, from the years I have had the pleasure of corresponding with Coram Deo, that he judges himself far harsher than most anyone I’ve known. And he trembles at the very name of the Most Holy Lord God Almighty and His Word.

    Which of us is innocent of ever misunderstanding what another has said online? Or of over-reacting? Or of perhaps using wordage we perhaps shouldn’t have used? Or of perhaps not being fully aware of how what we say is taken by the listener? Would you like me, or anyone else, to pull up some of the remarks you’ve made over the years? Because I don’t see you as any better than the man you so self-righteously accuse. Would you like others to refer to you then as a hypocrite? Then why do you stand in judgment of Coram Deo? Your “apology” after launching into your disgraceful and unloving remarks lacks any semblance of honest, heartfelt sorrow.

    Coram Deo’s departure from this blog is a great loss to the service of the Church, as he was ten times the defender of the faith than you or I, standing many times alone for the truth of Scripture in the face of numerous attacks from various cult and secular “apologists”, often simultaneously.

    May the Lord grant you repentance. Lest He deal with you after your folly!

  51. Dear Katy.

    I don’t want to get into the “my kids learn about the Lord at home-not the youth group- conversation ” because you , in one sentence have judged the kids in the youth group, decided they were secular, what they wear is inappropriate , and that they were lusting. Yet you know none of these kids but you’re pretty sure they must be bad.
    Somehow you think your children are completely sheltered from any normal teenage feelings and that ” your kids” are good but “those youth group kids” and “those public school kids” are somehow just “bad.”

    Katy. With love and respect , you’ve gotta give the “other kids ” a break. They are not all hooligans and brats and sex addicts.
    They are good kids Growing up with hormones and changes and normal teenage stuff.
    Just because my kid loves youth group (where they discuss Bible application in small groups) does not mean I don’t teach him anything. I thank the Lord he loves his group. As kids especially boys as they grow older naturally pull away from their mother I am very happy he has a great group to go to and share his faith.

    As its been stated, everyone has their own needs for their families in which I respect. But Katy, you are very condescending hoping our kids won’t be tainted when you are so sure your kids will live a life of untainted purity just because they are home.

  52. I have another question for Manfred in addition to the one above at 1:24 pm.
    Mickey asked you this in his commment at 1:50 pm March 14:

    “Does your fellowship offer education to the young in your comunity as an alternative to public education? If not, why not?!”

    You wrote this in your 9:49 am March 14: “Those who struggle with this and do the best they can should be encouraged and assisted by their church.” (The “this” is public school sending.)

    And this in your 2:19: “My elders would never think it acceptable to send Christian children to a government school, but do not discipline parents for doing so.”

    If it is never acceptable to send Christian children to public schools, (according to your elders) yet parents are not disciplined for doing so, (because it is not a sin as long as they are dedicated to teaching them about God in the home) and if financial aid is not provided by the church for families who do send their children to a public school, (wouldn’t this be a priority to keep Christian chilldren out of evil?) then why would a church (not picking on any specific one here) promote it and teach it as the best/biblical way? Or, why should anyone listen when that church promotes it?

    For example, if in your own church homeschooling/Christian schools are promoted as the best way, are there any concrete ways you can provide that show what is being done to ensure that best way is achieved? Or is it a best way that is achieved only for those who financially can…and the rest are just doing it “half best?” And if these half best are doing the very best they can and should be assisted by their church, as you mentioned above, what does that mean? How are they to be assisted? Thanks, Manfred.

  53. Diane – if you read the bold paragraph I added to the original post, I think some of your questions are answered.

    Our church teaches and assists parents to teach their own children and our parents belong to co-ops in our area that provide myriad forms of assistance. We have monthly meetings for me, wherein we focus on a specific area of spiritual life each quarter. Training children is the topic for one quarter. Those who need help will be helped by other families, and by deacons and elders as need be. We do not encourage “Christian” schools, either – they will teach different doctrines than the churches from which their students come from; but they are not evil by nature as are government schools.

    We provide financial assistance to members under deacon care and published guidelines for how that ministry will be administered.

    If you have more questions, please let me know.

  54. I might have just one more question and thank you for your answer to me, Manfred. It sounds like your church is helping practically for something that your elders deem very important.

    I did read your bolded paragraph with the clarification and conditions you stated. I was wondering about this statement-

    “All the while, we sit in silent defiance of God’s commands that we who are His train up our children in godliness, in the fear and admonition of our Lord…”

    I guess I am still wondering who these defiant ones are…who are the “we?” Are the “we” ones who send their children to public schools as referenced in the paragraph above this statement?

    If it is not a sin, (in your opinion with the conditions you stated) to send a Christian child to a public school, are the defiant ones those Christians who do not teach their children about God in the home and send them to a public school? Or are they Christians who do teach their children about God in the home and send them to a public school? Forgive my not getting this, if you have already explained it, and thank you.

  55. @DavidW
    I posted on this 3 times. The second and third were combined as one. What should have happened was the last comment paragraph above was a 3rd post combined with a second post. I don’t know why the mod. did it that way, but you should read the last paragraph as simply my apology seperate from the fist 2. I can see that since the mod. combined them you could assume I was still being snarky but that isn’t the case.
    You aren’t familar with the specifics of what he did and didn’t do, and I will not rehash them here, but rather leave my final paragraph above, which should have been seperated but was combined by the mod. as my final word on the subject. I do stand by my words, and my apology for offending you and Corem Deo.
    Thanks for being my extra “Holy Spirit Brother” DavidW and say hello to Corem Deo for me? :)

  56. Diane – yes, those who refuse to see the wickedness of the government schools and do nothing to provide godly instruction for their kids are the ones who are defiant and in need of discipline. It is sinful to send young children who are not saved, or regenerate children not yet equipped or willing to engage the evil that opposes their soul, to government schools – which wage war against all that is godly. I do not consider it sinful to send a spiritually mature child who wants to engage the culture to a government school; I consider this a possible good training ground for what lies ahead for most people – the marketplace is no more friendly to God than our school system. My employer celebrates “gay pride” each year and extends insurance benefits to “significant others” who are not married. That is the way of the world – as with the Girl Scouts being cheek and jowl with Planned Parenthood.

    Soli Deo Gloria!

  57. Sueliz1,

    I am speaking from what I have seen and witnessed at our old church, at youth events and such. I am not just assuming. I don’t see them all as brats and hooligans…I loved those kids from the youth…but that doesn’t mean that I agree with their behavior or would put my children in with it. My oldest child is 10 years old…so we haven’t had to deal with the teen-years as of yet.

    You may see me as condescending, but that is not my intention. I know the dangers of the world and just desire to do my best to keep my children out of it as long as possible. I feel I am doing what is absolutely the best for our family. If you feel you are doing the best for your family, then that is wonderful. I truly wish you all the best.

  58. I’ve purposefully withheld comment on this thread, as I figured it would generate a lot of comments from others. I will only offer ONE comment, and here it is:

    This is a divisive issue, and causes factionalism almost everywhere it’s discussed with such conviction. Let us not be censorious with our brothers and sisters in Christ with respect to their individual decisions relative to where they may elect to educate their kids.

    Todd
    Texas

  59. And you as well Katy. Every blessing be yours.
    Sue

  60. Todd,

    Your comment is excellent, thank you for posting it. I have one parting thought, when our children reach college age, is it sinful to send them off to college? If it’s wrong to send them to the public school system, I would think sending them off to college would be wrong as well, according to this logic. Colleges are just as wicked as the public school system; workplaces are wicked and evil as well. If your grown child were offered a well paying job at a major company that backs sinful ways such as immoral behavior, do you tell them to turn down the position?

    Yes, protect your children, especially when they are young and impressionable; teach them the ways of the Lord. “Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.” Proverbs 22:6

    I understand Voddie Baucham’s wife was a public school teacher…so it’s okay to work within this evil system but not send your kids there? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3g1kRpnuBQU

  61. Eventually there will be a one world education system, run by the UN and the global govt. system. I’m glad my kid knows about it already. I’m sure Lyn and Diane and Linda will let their kids know too.
    Lyn, I agree with your comments.And thanks Todd for yours as well.

  62. Unworthy1…did you watch the rest of the video you posted? That very first comment that his wife taught in public schools immediately goes into that is why that convinced them to NOT send their children to public school. That entire video completely reinforces what I have been saying. :)

    I would prefer for my children not to go to college…but if God leads them that way, I would pray that I had spent their childhood training them up properly… :)

  63. Katy,
    Yes, I did.
    My point was that it was okay, at one point, for a Christian to work for this evil system, how ever brief her employment may have been, but not for their kids to go there. Am I to believe that they were unaware of how evil public education is until she taught within this system? How you educate your children is a matter of choice; teaching them the ways of the Lord is not.

    Sueliz…amen sister!!

  64. Katy,

    I’m curious. Why don’t you want your kids to go to college?

  65. Educating my children and teaching them in the Lord are all one in the same for us…as we teach Creation science, for example…”true” science. Schools don’t teach creation science…or that the Bible is a historical document….that accurately portrays the history of God’s people.

    A Christian teacher, who is strong in their faith, *can* try to be a light in a wicked place….young children are not ready for that responsibility.

    I am truly not trying to be argumentative. I know it seems that way, and I apologize. This is something I am very passionate about. Our children are only young once. If they belong to God….no matter how we fail as parents, He will draw them to Him. However, as Christians, we are called to do that absolute *best* we can with them, teaching them in all things…praying with them and over them.

    It really isn’t for me to tell anyone want to do. If you can acknowledge before God that you know the public schools are an evil place…and knowing that, you send your children there anyway…then that is between you and Him. I can’t convince anyone…only His Spirit will convict.
    I’m sorry if I have seemed harsh and disagreeable…I truly don’t mean to be…
    Warmly,
    ———————————–

    sueliz1,
    :) Often, college degrees are just a piece of paper. The debt people go into to attend college is astronomical. I have experienced college life for myself….I know what goes on. There are so many trades and other things people can do. Of course, God’s will is the ultimate thing for us and if He leads one of my children to college…okay. :)

  66. Thanks Katy. I feel that in today’s economy, college is a necessity to make a living. Trades are paid very little today unfortunately. I know not everyone is a book person and trades are important. For our family, it’s as important as high school and not really an option.
    There are some great Christian colleges and will point my son in that direction.
    I would like to encourage you not to worry about “what goes on in college.” Trust the Lord has your little ones in His care Katy. I just sense you are afraid. The Word is being planted in their hearts. When they were toddlers, we had to let them fall and scrape their knees. They had to fall off their bikes a bunch of times, before they ‘got it.’ It really is the same way growing up into adults and all the while, they will remember the Word deep within their hearts. All of us parents have to learn to give them wings so they can fly from the nest. Easier said than done. ;)

  67. This, by Doug Phillips, from Vision Forum really sums up my beliefs on things. Sometimes I don’t explain myself correctly! :)

    http://www.visionforum.com/news/blogs/doug/2007/09/2940/

  68. I’ll probably regret commenting, but here it goes . . .

    This debate isn’t first and foremost about the virtues of home educating, it is about whether or not it’s right for a Christian parent to place their impressionable, dependent child (not a grown adult) into harm’s way spiritually (and oftentimes physically), and to do so purposely, willfully, and deliberately; in spite of Jesus’ warning against causing little ones to stumble. That is the gist of this debate.

    Home education is not a “silver bullet” as Manfred said, but government education is certainly a poisoned dart.

    I’ve seen many, many examples of what happens to the kids of Christian parents after being sent through the assembly line of government education. And like good little clones of the system, the overwhelming majority adopt the worldview and culture of those educators and peers around them (because, as the Apostle Paul warned, bad company corrupts). There’s no way to sugar coat it, what happens to most children who are educated by Caesar is an abominable (but preventable) tragedy.

    It is for these reasons that I will not be persuaded to hand over my children to a government that hates my faith, hates my beliefs, hates my God, hates my gospel, and hates my Savior.

    It’s natural for my children to have a bent toward sin, so I’d be a fool to foster that sin nature in them by allowing them to be educated by a system antithetical to Christianity; a system designed to condition them how to think, act, and behave like the vast majority of children that those behavioral engineering centers produce.

    My children are already sinners, I don’t need to send them to a group setting reminiscent to The Lord of the Flies in order to expose them to even more sin to somehow make them better, more well-rounded, and more socially adapted individuals. Where’s that concept in Scripture?

    When the level of a child’s education is more important to us than their very souls, we have obviously lost sight of the eternal in favor of the temporal.

    Would it be wrong to send your impressionable young child to a brothel for career day education? How about an evolution science summer camp? What about the Marxist worldview workshop courses at the local community college? Atheist conventions?

    We’d be appalled by any Christian parent that would approve of their children entering into such places for their “education” or to expose them to the “real world,” yet somehow doing this exact thing over the course of a twelve year span gets a pass. When the indoctrination is done in gradual increments over the course of twelve years (and more in college), then exposing our children to harm somehow becomes permissible. I’d argue that brief exposure to the sex business, evolutionary teachings, Marxist teachings, and anti-theist lectures, are far less detrimental to a child’s soul than the slow, gradual exposure of those same concepts and worldviews eight hours a day, five days a week, 52 weeks a year, for twelve years (a worldview often reinforced in most church youth groups . . . sorry, the truth is the truth).

    And to argue that sending our children into a den of wolves is somehow justified because some parents are too poor (many still with cable TV, cell phones, internet, etc.), sounds a lot like arguing for the exceptions to guide the norm.

    We see this type of argumentation done all the time in the infanticide debate. How many times have we heard the pro-abortion camp wax eloquent for the legalization of dismembering infants based on the minuscule occurrences of rape and incest? And their other favorite argument is on the grounds that the parents are too poor to properly tend to the child’s needs. It’s frightening how similar the reasoning is behind the two arguments.

    Is it wrong or is it not wrong to murder a defenseless child?

    Is it wrong or is it not wrong to condone your kids walking in the counsel of the wicked, standing in the path of sinners, and sitting in the seat of scoffers?

    If Christian parents put their child into an overtly physical, emotional, and/or spiritually harmful environment, other Christians are rightly up in arms over such a detrimental decision and would have serious words with those parents. But if the harm done to the children is committed over time, in the course of government education, then we wink at it and look the other way because, after all, most of the church employs the world’s system to educate, raise, and shape their children, so it must be ok.

    I can’t grasp how it’s a bad thing if you cause your children to stumble in any obvious ways (and it’s permissible to voice objections to such stumbling blocks), but if you cause your child to stumble more subtlety (e.g. government education), then not only is that acceptable, but anyone who objects is often branded a legalist.

    Well, to be brutally honest, I’ve grown weary of arguing with Christians on matters such as this. Frankly, I’m done doing so. There are plenty of others out there sounding the alarm (e.g. Indoctrination and Whoever Controls the Schools Controls the World).

    My own family loses time with me because of my heart’s desire to see other Christians not make these mistakes, but all I’ve gotten for my labor is grief and allegations of “Legalist!”

    I’ve become persuaded as of late to spend less time trying to encourage others in matters of the faith, and more time teaching and raising my own family. If my fellow Christians want to turn the hearts and minds of their children over to an education system bent on the indoctrination and assimilation of their children, then so be it. I’m done sounding the alarm on this matter while everyone else just wants to keep hitting the snooze button. We will each reap what we sow, and we can all learn a little from the Psalmist:

    How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, Nor stand in the path of sinners, Nor sit in the seat of scoffers! But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night. Psalm 1:1-2

  69. Pilgrim….you have said it well! I completely agree. :)

  70. Ouch, Pilgrim. Are you comparing those who send their kids to public school on par with those who justify murder (abortion)?? Wow.

  71. Sueliz1:
    No. I actually I did no such thing. You’re reading into that one. The comparison was to the type of argumentation; the tactic of the argument, not the basis or object of the argument. In both cases the appeal to rare instances is employed to justify the need for the greater act.

    Katy:
    Have you seen the video College Conspiracy yet? It’s well worth the watch.

  72. Pilgrim,
    No I haven’t…but definitely appreciate the recommendation. I will look into finding it! Thank you!

    I saw it turned into a link ;). I am watching/listening to it as I type! :)

  73. I’m glad that’s not what you were saying Pilgrim.
    I just think your post is very hard to digest for single moms that can not homes school. I don’t think Lyn needs to feel one ounce of guilt and nor does Linda. I just can’t point fingers at these women and the choices they have made I’m sure they are great parents.

  74. Sue, he didn’t say there aren’t exceptions, he said exceptions should not guide the norm. There’s a huge difference. I strongly agree with him that, if at all possible, Christian parents should not put their kids (at least their young ones) in the environment of at least most government schools. There may be exceptions in rural places, etc, but there aren’t many.

    And I also think “if at all possible” is a clause that should rarely be used, as well. I think a lot more parents could find a way to avoid this disaster than do find a way to avoid it.

    The churches in the UK are empty these days in large part because Christians lost their children, and they lost their children in large part because they let the state (and their children’s foolish peers) have half or more of their waking hours (and let the telly have 25% more of the remaining time).

  75. Sueliz1,

    Thanks for understanding what I was and was not saying. I’m glad we cleared that up.

    :o)

    On another note, I think the commenters here have stumbled upon something.

    If the church is to visit (or care for) the widows and children (as James tells us), would it not be in the church’s best interest to care for these children by assisting in providing a means to educate them without sending them into the lions den?

    We often look only to food and clothing when it comes to caring for those struggling. But a well-dressed kid with a full tummy who grows up rejecting the faith because of twelve years of constant government indoctrination is not what I would call a success.

    Perhaps this is a matter churches should consider.

  76. Mickey,

    I’ve been having difficulty with getting my comments through too, but I don’t think it’s the moderator, but a software issue. My last comment seemed to vanish altogether, so I’ll try and redo it here (and hope this one gets through).

    I hear what you are saying, and I understand you issued an apology. But I’m just not sensing a heart of love or forgiveness. Especially after accusing Coram Deo of several serious charges, then the “two wrongs don’t make a right” “apology”. What I also heard is your claim that I wasn’t there, so I don’t know what he did and didn’t do. In other words, I’m not privy to the details, so I have no grounds to even discuss this. Actually I was there, and I do know the details. But does that really matter? The point is, your unforgiving, prideful, attitude seems based upon “what he did” and “what he didn’t do”. Never mind that Jesus forgives him (and all of us when we fall short of His perfect righteousness). You’re still going to stand in place of judgment over him. And it very much reminds me of a kid who has it in for Jimmy for something he did (or didn’t do), so you’re still going to get in that shot of revenge to make him pay, then issue an “apology” if anyone got offended (“but, hey, Jimmy was still wrong, so…”).

    This is altogether unbiblical behavior and attitude, friend. It’s childish. It’s fleshly. Actually, it is more than that. It is sinful. It is not the way of Christ. The unforgiving heart that keeps coming through in your words reveals a stubborness to submit to God’s word to love and forgive your brother. Your standing by your words (which were spiteful accusations against your brother) is unrepentance the likes of which I usually only see in the unregenerate.

    No, I’m not trying to be the Holy Spirit here (as you insinuated). I’m just a real nobody that is very grieved at your attitude. Which thus far remains stubbornly unrepentant. And I’m calling you (for the last time) to repent for the sake of your eternity. I don’t know what more I can say.

  77. “Me thinks thou dost protest too much…”
    Tell me what happened then since you were there. Since you were there and know what happened, you would then be privy to my email address, which you are free to use to continue this conversation. Otherwise you would be responsible for the public airing of the event.
    Again, “Me thinks you doth protest too much…” In other words you seem to have more on your agenda then you are letting on. By the way, look around you and see how many have come running to support you in this continued push for, what actually? And since you know so much perhaps you would share as to why Corem Deo chose to leave this blog? “Corem Deo” means to live a transparent life in the presence of God in all things! Since you know, perhaps you would explain why he carried that handle, claimed that walk, held a man to that standard even as he sought to hide his own violations to the standard he held others to? And when confronted used his position as a moderator to attempt to cover it up?!?!
    I issued a seperate apology AFTER the prior 2 entries, that someone lumped in with the second entry. The apology was posted afterwards, and was in response to both earlier statements, and is genuine!
    Would you rather write an acceptable apology for me that would meet your requirements so that this will move along in a fasion you seem to want to dictate?
    Again, “Me thinks you doth protest too much.” and for alterior motives I suspect!
    I am not buying your genuine concern for my standing before God, and further I am holding you to your committment of this being your “(for the last time)”
    Finally, “Me thinks you doth protest too much!”

    I am however rather amazed how you can “hold me accountabe” to judging another unfairly, while simultaneously judging that person as repentant and me as un-repentant, while not seeing you are guilty of exactly what you say I am guilty of!
    …and you did refer to me as brother!

  78. Gentlemen, I know nothing of the individual or events you are discussing, and from my perspective this conversation is unseemly. It is off-topic, for one thing. For another, it is in a public forum where many people who read it may be unaware of the facts of the case. If you are going to write publicly on the matter, it should be done in a way that others can see clearly that Biblical principles are being applied in the discussion and the situation. That is impossible to see in this discussion, and thus it is completely unprofitable for me, and undoubtedly for many others who will read it.

    As brothers, I respectfully request that you take it off-line entirely, or if it is judged to truly be profitable to discuss publicly, to a forum where the facts of the case are clearly stated.

  79. Thank you John Gleason! Wise counsel indeed!
    That is what I asked him to do, after all it was a comment I made to a mod. here who took no exception to it. Now back to the discussion at hand.

    Yes Pilgrim, I did make the suggestion that churches need to consider the need for educating the children rather then just instructing the parents on how their children should be educated. But this would take people actually being what the churches in Acts were…givers to one another sacraficially. I’m afraid that most “elders” look at it as another cash cow business model, when they decide to start a “christian school” and soon they see the benefit financially of labeling it an “evangelical outreach” as they open the thing up to every spoiled rich brat whose mommy and daddy want a safe place to care for their children as they trot off to reap their fleshly lucor harvest. From personal experience these schools of religious education are often times worse places then we might imagine regarding a godly education. Sad really. Further, they hire many of the lamest excuses for educators anyone has ever seen!
    Manfred eluded to the model that from my experience works much better, and that is homeschooling co-ops that are sponsored by and eldered by the church. Parents of the homeschool kids “one another” in their areas of expertise offering classes that they have personal knowlege, experience and passion for. But it is a sacraficial giving relationship. I did also say parents…not just moms…and it also works quite well to have elder siblings helping younger siblings. Oh, you will still have the parents who are trying to use it as a day off from their responsiblilties, and there will need to be some old fashion church discipline in these times. There is an untapped resource in most churches and that is the senior citizens who have vast real world experience that can be tapped, plus the many hands make less work for all…That is if we can get them to slow down all their golden agers bus trips! LOL…Hey! how about all agers bus trips that are co-op field trips! You see, when we stop doing church and start being the church, much more can be accomplished for the benefit of all…like homeschoolers helping their senior citizens with their home chores teaching the children to also serve in their fellowship. I call that the blessings exchange!
    One word of warning, though and that is the “homeschooling mothers mafia click” that sometimes get formed with those moms/kids who are in the click and those who are out of the click…just one more reason the co-op should be sponsored and guided by elders in the fellowship!

  80. “I’m afraid that most “elders” look at it as another cash cow business model, when they decide to start a “christian school” and soon they see the benefit financially of labeling it an “evangelical outreach” as they open the thing up to every spoiled rich brat whose mommy and daddy want a safe place to care for their children as they trot off to reap their fleshly lucor harvest.”

    Its not the most PC way to say it… but it’s true none the less

    -Jim

  81. Katy,

    You might find this post about Doug Phillips and his Vision Forum beliefs interesting…http://jensgems.wordpress.com/2006/12/12/muzzling-women/
    and here – http://jensgems.wordpress.com/

    This blog exposes a lot of strange practices from someone who experienced it firsthand.

  82. After reading many different posts that bash him….I may not agree with everyone Doug Phillips says and does…but I definitely still agree with his views on sending my daughter to college.

  83. In all fairness to the link I gave you, there was no bashing, just revealing truth from what this couple went through. Personally, I steer clear of anything from VF and Doug Phillips. Since I am not partial to this man or anything he teaches, I can see clearly the postings like the one I sent you are not bashing him; it’s more of a warning signal. I understand how we tend to defend those we esteem highly, I have done it myself.

    On the flip side of this discussion, I know young men and women who were home schooled and/or went to a Christian school, yet they are worldly, desiring things of the world; wanting and/or having high paying careers and setting their sights on earthly comfort.

  84. I do need to look more into Doug Phillips’ behavior…I had just never heard it before…and so much of that woman’s site seems to focus on singling him out. I understand warnings and such…but it seems to go on and on…

    Of course, there are homeschoolers and such that are worldly and have no love of God in their lives. It is to be completely expected….however, that doesn’t negate my responsibility to do the absolute best I can with my children.

  85. I agree Katy, just want to encourage you to be informed about this man. Home schooling is wonderful, if you can do it.

  86. Wished I would have homecolleged my daughter! She is graduating in May as a mechanical engineer, and did it in 4 years. When she left, mom and I were 2 of the dumbest animals she had ever had to deal with…It’s amazing how smart we got while she was off at school, but then this dumb animal told her it would be that way.
    Here is a link to a good heads up site for slip sliding away schools!
    http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/Colleges.htm
    This is an ever increasing list folks. My daughters school wasn’t on there 4 years ago…It is now! ;);) (wink wink)
    @ Flee Babylon
    If you think I wasn’t politically correct about christian schools, just wait for my piece on christian colleges! They give me hope for TBN network to repent before they will. Just imagine the liberal college professors of public institutions, and those problems, then add in the beast religious system on top of it. Your best day with them will be the day you go look at them when your kids are in high school, that is the little lamb look, by the time it’s too late to transfer? You will have seen the dragon in all its glory!

  87. Katy, anyone can write a website and make accusations. Often some of them are true and some aren’t. I guarantee you that Doug Phillips is a sinner and makes mistakes in his ministry, so there’s no need to be shocked at finding allegations of such. Unless you are placing yourself under his authority by joining his church, there is little to be gained by trying to sort the true from the false.

    The key for those not personally involved with him or his ministry in some way is usually to simply look at his teachings and compare them to Scripture. The questions of who said what when, and why, rarely do much for us.

  88. I honestly cannot believe someone had the audacity to say that not homeschooling one’s children is a sin! Can you say LEGALISM??

    Honestly, it is these types of posts that have caused me to stop reading most Christian blogs. I am sick and tired of Christians jumping up on their platforms and proclaiming to the world how they are the superior Christians because they do this and that.

    My husband is not saved (before you accuse me of another sin, I was saved 13 years after we married), and he absolutely refuses to allow our 4 children to be homeschooled. So I get up each morning and shuttle them off to those evil dens of sin and vice.

    I, therefore, am obviously a lesser Christian. As if living each day unequally yoked were not devastatingly painful enough, I have self righteous Christians out there pointing the finger at me and reminding me how I and my family do not measure up.

    Perhaps one day my husband will get saved and agree to homeschool our kids. Then I guess I will get to move up in the ranks and become a superior Christian like the one who posted this blog post.

    I guess if sending my kids to public school is a sin, I should get up tomorrow, put my foot down and refuse to take them.

    That would no doubt result in the end of my marriage. I would then be a single mother and be forced to get a job to support my kids, and still would not be able to homeschool them because I would be working.

    It looks like I am doomed to be a lesser Christian.

  89. Amy – there is no such thing and lesser and greater Christians. No mortal is anything apart from the righteousness of Christ. I don’t know where anyone said failing to homeschool your children was sin; failing to train them in the Lord is. You are in a difficult circumstance; only a fool would advise you to put your foot and defy your husband. That does not eliminate the reality that the government school is hateful toward God and working against you as a Christian parent. Your work to train them in the Lord will be more difficult – you need to be (and I hope in Christ you are) part of a biblically solid church that will assist you and pray for you and your family.

    For what’s it’s worth, legalism is the futile effort to earn God’s favor by works. period. Christians exhorting one another to live according to His law with the aim to please Him and avoid sin are not advocating legalism – merely recognizing that Christians have a new nature that wants to please God and He has told us what He desires.

    May the Lord bless you and grant you grace to live a godly life in difficult circumstances that He provided for your sanctification.

  90. Manfred, this is your comment from above:

    “It is sinful to send young children who are not saved, or regenerate children not yet equipped or willing to engage the evil that opposes their soul, to government schools – which wage war against all that is godly.”

    I’m sorry, but there was nothing at all in your article or in the provocative title that did anything to edify me or encourage me in the Lord. It just heaped more pain and guilt on me for something that is completely out of my control.

    We as Christians do not all fit into one little neat and tidy box. Shouting “Government schools are evil!” does absolutely nothing to help those who simply DO NOT HAVE A CHOICE.

    I would especially love for Pilgrim (after reading his comment) to walk a day in my shoes. I don’t have the cohesive Christian home he is so privileged and blessed to have. Perhaps it would cause him to extend grace where I see only judgment.

  91. Amy,
    I completely understand you and support you and am sending you a cyber-hug. I also must send my child to public school. There are many in our position.
    Don’t fret what others tell you. It’s not worth it. You know in your heart what you are doing and no one else does. No one lives your life but you.
    I will remember your husband in my prayers. Certainly by submitting to him in this way, by sending your kids to school is honoring him. And may he be won over without a word,but by submitting to him in love.
    Bless you, sister.
    Sue

  92. Amy – knowing what evil is does help Christians. God’s Word tells to be wise towards the world, not simple minded and easily taken advantage of. I stand by the title of this article and the quote you cited. Little ones who are not regenerate or mature in Christ are put at risk being “educated” by government schools. Parents who “have no choice” need to know this – that book I linked to would be most helpful to anyone who takes time to read any part of it.

  93. Amy,

    Please know that in absolutely *no* way do I think I am a greater Christian than anyone….actually, I feel as though I never will (or can) measure up…and the truth is I can’t without Christ. I am so thankful that He measures up for me!

    Homeschooling *is* the absolute best you can do for your children….there is no denying it. However, you have a biblical responsibility to honor your husband first. You are doing the right thing. :) Just pray over those littles of yours (as we all should be doing constantly anyway) and for your husband. I will remember you in my prayers as well. Perhaps one day, your husband will allow you to homeschool…and what a glorious day that will be! Does that make you a *better* christian? No! But is it *better* for your children? Yes!

    And I want to say…that Manfred’s post was spot-on. He never berated or belittled anyone. I’m sorry it made you feel so bad..but you know that biblically, you are doing the right thing by obeying your husband in this matter…so I am not sure why you felt so defensive about it. You are not one of the Christians he was speaking of. You are not making excuses why your children should go to public school….you are doing what is biblical in your situation! :) So be encouraged! :)

    Kindly,
    Katy

  94. I must have been wrong in my assessment of government schools. This story proves it. The feds have been in control of Kansas City schools for years – because the local could not be trusted how to spend money on a certain government-created demographic. So that city’s school system ought to be a prime example of how good and righteous and wholesome government schools can be. Sure enough – a boy with the wrong skin color volunteered an answer to a question about a government-created worship event and was punished for thinking he could have an opinion. He was the wrong color! The heart-warming story about how good and wholesome the government school system can be is here: http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/03/was_boy_in_kc_fire_attack_a_victim_of_his_schools_racist_teaching.html

    May God have mercy.

  95. Does your local government school use police to enforce discipline? They do here in the swamp known as Houston and in many places around the former United States – now understood to be The UNited State. Well, Milledgeville, Georgia is another town using police to keep a lid on crime in government schools. In this sweet tale of life in kindergarten (research where that came from – extra credit!) a 6 year old girl is put in handcuffs by the police and taken downtown for questioning and time-out. She should be thankful they didn’t taze her!

    http://www.13wmaz.com/news/article/178448/175/Milledgeville-Police-Handcuff-6-Year-Old-Girl

  96. I will add to this when I see relevant articles, in an attempt to show that government schools in the US of A are, as a system, God-hating. Another look at police in gubmint schools and how it turns young citizens into criminals. Is this where Christian parents should choose to put their young, immature or unconverted children?

    ARRESTED DEVELOPMENT: THE CRIMINALIZATION OF AMERICA’S SCHOOLCHILDREN – http://www.worldviewweekend.com/worldview-times/article.php?articleid=8267

  97. The gubmint simply cannot keep itself from making an example of bad behavior the norm. Totalitarian authority on display – an honor role junior thrown in jail for missing school so she could financially support her abandoned siblings. How thoughtful and well reasoned! Details here: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/05/30/group-raises-more-than-70g-for-texas-honor-student-jailed-for-truancy/?test=latestnews

  98. And so it continues. A high school girl in Florida is banned from the gubmint school bus because she verbally defended a “mentally challenged student” from a couple of bullies on the bus after the school admin and bus driver refused to do anything. Thugs in offices protect thugs on the street – and in gubmint buses! More and a short video here: http://www.therightscoop.com/teenage-girl-is-banned-from-riding-school-bus-after-defending-mentally-challenged-student-from-bullies/

  99. I would like to be shocked…but I’m not at all…it’s no surprise that the gov’t acts how it does.

    “If Psalm 1 is to be believed, we must not allow our children to stand, sit or walk with those who deny biblical truth and morality. Instead, we must place them in situations that will aid them in meditating on the law of the Lord ‘day and night.’ Surely this involves how and where they are to be educated.”
    ~Voddie Baucham

    Manfred…each time I read gubmint in your comments I immediately snicker! :)

  100. Katy – thanks for your encouragement. I pretty much always seeing or hearing comments from my friend and pastor :-) He actually uses “gubmint” in some of his sermons! Love the man and his message.

    All these stories from our culture ought to remind us of our duty before God to take seriously the responsibility He has given us when these cute little babies appear in our homes.

  101. In a stunning move, the governor of Louisiana presses forward to make good on a campaign promise to free parents from gubmint schools!

    “Louisiana is embarking on the nation’s boldest experiment in privatizing public education, with the state preparing to shift tens of millions in tax dollars out of the public schools to pay private industry, businesses owners and church pastors to educate children.”

    Read the whole thing here – it makes the state of Louisiana a much more attractive place!
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/01/us-education-vouchers-idUSL1E8H10AG20120601

  102. As good as it sounds…I still would be leery of using vouchers issued by the govt. I don’t want the govt to have *any* hold or thing over my family, if at all possible! It *does* sound better than just options for public school though!

  103. sigh – from my home state, no less. Note the admission of the real reason for this program: to protect the funding of the gubmint skool. It is never for the children; it’s always about the money – and the control over the population it brings.

    Texas schools punish students who refuse to be tracked with microchips.
    http://rt.com/usa/news/texas-school-id-hernandez-033/

    A school district in Texas came under fire earlier this year when it announced that it would require students to wear microchip-embedded ID cards at all times. Now, students who refuse to be monitored say they are feeling the repercussions.

    Since October 1, students at John Jay High School and Anson Jones Middle School in San Antonio, Texas, have been asked to attend class with photo ID cards equipped with radio-frequency identification (RFID) chips to track every pupil’s location. Educators insist that the endeavor is being rolled out in Texas to stem the rampant truancy devastating the school’s funding. If the program is judged successful, the RFID chips could soon come to 112 schools in all and affect nearly 100,000 students.

    Students who refuse to walk the school halls with the card in their pocket or around their neck claim they are being tormented by instructors, and are barred from participating in certain school functions. Some also said they were turned away from common areas like cafeterias and libraries.

  104. Just when you thought it couldn’t get any crazier, the gubmint shines bright with hypocrisy, doing something parents actually get in serious trouble for doing: locking up young kids in small rooms as punishment. This skool calls it a “therapy box”. Gag a maggot.

    Elementary school locks kids who misbehave in therapeutic box.
    Controversy abounds in southwestern Washington after a mother posted photos on Facebook of a padded, cell-like room not much larger than a telephone booth at Mint Valley Elementary School in Longview.

    The school principal said the school uses the room, termed an “isolation booth,” for students with behavioral disabilities, reports Portland’s ABC affiliate KATU-TV.

    Read the article – with a picture of the therapy box – here: http://dailycaller.com/2012/11/30/elementary-school-locks-kids-who-misbehave-in-therapeutic-box/

  105. It’s as if the gubmint skool officials WANT to be seen as fools! Parents would be thrown in jail and lose custody of their children if they did a fraction of what gubmint employees do “for the children”.

    The latest – a 15 year-old boy was STRIP SEARCHED because someone gave the principle an anonymous tip, with no evidence. A cop and the female principle stripped and searched him while other officials looked on. From the article:

    Asked if the officer or assistant principal said anything, the student said, “They told me they had an anonymous tip. They were looking for drugs.”

    He said, while the others watched, one of the security guards put him up against the wall of a bathroom stall so his back was to the guards.

    “And then he searched me with my clothes on,” the boy said. “Then he told me to remove my belt. As I undid my belt he pulled my pants and underwear down to my knees.”

    No drugs were found. Read the whole thang here: http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/12/05/parents-of-teen-strip-searched-at-school-sue-assistant-principal-police/

    Oh – the young man’s parents are suing the skool district. I hope they bankrupt it.

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