153 Comments

How to think like a Roman Catholic.

The following is an illustrated lesson to help you understand how the average Roman Catholic thinks on the matter of idolatry. I have provided several images which will allow you to better understand how a Romanist processes information.

But before we begin, and so you can fully grasp this lesson, you must carefully read the following passages from Leviticus 26:1 and Exodus 20:4-5 (respectively):

“You shall not make for yourselves idols, nor shall you set up for yourselves an image or a sacred pillar, nor shall you place a figured stone in your land to bow down to it; for I am the LORD your God.

“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,”

Now, let’s begin.

To see if you think like a Roman Catholic, what is your response to each of the the following pictures (the “proper” Romanist responses are indicated below each image).

Pagan idol worship condemned by scripture.

_______________________________

Veneration.

_______________________________

Pagan idol worship condemned by scripture.

_______________________________

Veneration.

_______________________________

Pagan idol worship condemned by scripture.

_______________________________

Veneration.

_______________________________

Pagan idol worship condemned by scripture.

_______________________________

Veneration.

_______________________________

Pagan idol worship condemned by scripture.

_______________________________

Veneration.

_______________________________

Pagan idol worship condemned by scripture.

_______________________________

Veneration.

_______________________________

Pagan idol worship condemned by scripture.

_______________________________

Veneration.

_______________________________

Pagan idol worship condemned by scripture.

_______________________________

Veneration.

_______________________________

Pagan idol worship condemned by scripture.

_______________________________

Veneration.

_______________________________

Pagan idol worship condemned by scripture.

_______________________________

Veneration.

_______________________________

Pagan idol worship condemned by scripture.

_______________________________

Veneration.

_______________________________

To see if you’ve been successfully conditioned to think like a Roman Catholic, we’ll conclude with one last picture.

Examine the following photograph carefully. The worshipers in the picture are from India, a country dominated with the worship of countless idols of Hindu gods made from stone and wood. So, are the people in this picture merely offering veneration, or are they pagan idol worshipers violating God’s prohibition of such activity found in Leviticus 26:1 and Exodus 20:4-5?

The answer: They are Roman Catholics, so therefore, their actions are only that of veneration.

If you answered this correctly, you are thinking like a Romanist, if you answered incorrectly you either need to start again at the beginning of this post, or you’re simply one of those fundamentalists who takes God’s prohibition against idolatry literally and seriously.

But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. Revelation 21:8

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

153 comments on “How to think like a Roman Catholic.

  1. Very good post brother! This is typical of all false religions, they change the wording to fit their belief system, in this case idolatry has be relabeled as veneration. Clever indeed. \

    What does veneration mean? ‘a profound emotion inspired by a deity’. What are some synonyms to veneration? Synonyms:idolatry; cultism; veneration; devotion – courtesy of http://www.AudioEnglish.net

    So is there any difference between idolatry and veneration? Not according to this definition.

  2. But Rick Warren – “America’s Pastor!” – and Doug Wilson – Federal Vision – both claim Roman Catholic en masse as their brothers and sisters in “Christ”. How can they both be wrong? /sarc/

  3. I’ll venture a guess.
    Because John Piper has given his open endorsement of both?

  4. Yikes! There’s another high priest of modern evangelicalism – how can we be so narrow minded?

  5. Wonderful post brother, you hit the proverbial nail on the head so to speak!

    Totally agree with Manfred regarding Piper also ;-)

  6. SO good brother – God bless you in Christ Jesus.

    Jim

  7. Thank you for this. I go to a assisted living home for seniors once every two weeks. Almost every person in there is Catholic. The preist comes twice a week to do mass. Do you have any ways that I can get to the heart of things with these elderly people? I share the gospel with them (although I’m struggling with that because I’m a woman – not sure where to go with it since there are men there) and in their politeness they will agree to what I am saying. I try to go the “no good works root”, but they don’t see the difference. Any ways to respectfully confront them with their false religion?

  8. A picture(s) worth a thousand words; what a knockout punch!

  9. Anna, May the Lord bless you and be your wisdom as you seek to be obedient. I urge you to stick to the Gospel, making clear the FINISHED work of Christ and His place of honor as the once and final offering for sin. Emphasize the the deity and sufficiency and exclusivity of Christ – no man or woman, dead or alive can add to, supplement or subtract from His work. Explain the imputed righteousness we have – this is the core of their false teaching, resting on infused righteousness which empowers the Catholic to “finish the work”.

    Most in Rome do not realize what their religion teaches and many agree with the biblical Gospel, though they be dead in their sin and hanging on to the religion of their fathers. Only God can regenerate them and He has told us it is His Gospel that is “the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes”. Grow not weary in well doing.

  10. Anna:
    This may have been posted here before but getting right to the heart of the matter is always what counts most. People need to be confronted with their sin and this is a great way to go about it!
    http://www.livingwaters.com/good/
    God bless you-

  11. Thank you for these beautiful holy images of Catholic Faithfuls who pray to God, not the statue, they are reminded of our spiritual family and in prayer direct their hearts to God, they remind me to always be grateful for our family and our spiritual family. Now Go grab a picture of your deceased father, Grand Father, or Great Grand Father and in prayer, Thank God for their lives, their love and their sacrifices that brought you into this world. Same thing!

  12. “Thank you for these beautiful holy images of Catholic Faithfuls who pray to God, not the statue, they are reminded of our spiritual family and in prayer direct their hearts to God, they remind me to always be grateful for our family and our spiritual family. Now Go grab a picture of your deceased father, Grand Father, or Great Grand Father and in prayer, Thank God for their lives, their love and their sacrifices that brought you into this world. Same thing!”

    How sad to be so deceived and deluded…praise God for His glorious saving grace.

  13. kfilla, you are absolutely right, it is the same thing.

    Exodus 32:5 NASB

    Now when Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made a proclamation and said, “Tomorrow shall be a feast to the LORD.”

    The Sons of Israel were really worshipping the same Father in Heaven you and I worship! And surely Our Father in Heaven recognized the heart of worship they demonstrated that day, didn’t He? So what was His response?

    Exodus 32:33 NASB

    The LORD said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.”

    Your very words condemn you. Repent, that God might be merciful to you. There is no other way.

  14. I think that I get the picture! Great post.

  15. Anna, I would discourage you from going the way of the Way of the Master. It is confrontational and certainly not the most loving way to share the Gospel. Also, Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron are in bed with TBN and Comfort does not expose false teachers and in fact will appear in venues with them, mistakenly thinking that in doing so he is promoting the Gospel.

    These are elderly folks who are set in their ways, but they are at the doorstep of eternity. What a mission field!

    I would start out asking them respectfully and gently if they died today if they are certain if they will go to heaven. Every Catholic does not have that assurance because their faith is based on works and they believe they will have to go through the purifying fires of purgatory. If they answer that they are not totally sure, you can then tell them that they CAN know for sure and that you would like to share that with them – ask their permission. Show them from the Bible – even their own Bible the Roman Road or other verses pertaining to salvation. Then allow the Word of God to work in their hearts. Remember it is not YOUR words, but GOD’S WORD and the HOLY SPIRIT that bring someone to salvation. They will either receive it or reject it. But in any case, show them love and caring concern and be sure to pray over each person before and after your visits.

    You may be doing this already, but offer to pray for them each time and if they have concerns about their family or medical needs, you can pray for that as well. Your caring and loving attitude toward them will soften their heart to receive the Gospel. If you just reach one of these dear folks, your efforts will not be in vain. They have been deeply ingrained into this cult, but God’s Word is powerful. The first question to ask them really gets their attention!

    May the Lord bless you and use you in this ministry to rescue the perishing!!!

  16. Priceless, Pilgrim – simply priceless!!!

  17. Only By His Grace – interesting that you consider WOTM confrontational, yet you encourage Anna to confront the false belief of purgatory. Any effort to rescues those trapped in a false belief system is inherently confrontational because you must break down their reliance on works righteousness. WOTM simply uses the biblical teaching that the law is the schoolmaster which drives us to Christ. By exposing one’s sins through the use of the law, showing thru scripture that God is a just judge who will not be bribed through our good works, and that it is only through the shed blood of Christ that redemption can be found. Without lovingly and compassionately leading a person through this, it is likely a person might seek an “experimental” relationship with Christ because they do not see Him as Lord and Judge. They may try to come to Him for the benefits of salvation without ever repenting of their works righteousness. I would encourage you to look at what the WOTM folks teach without prejudging their methods.

  18. Dear kfilla:
    Thank you for your comment. You just proved the point of this post, the power of indoctrination of the Roman church, and the depth of delusion its followers are under. There truly is only one proper response to the idols of Romanism.

    Dear Anna:

    Bless your heart. This April will mark six years that I’ve been ministering in a convalescent home (I know, I know, my critics always unrighteously judge me as one who only sits behind a computer criticizing people and never reaching out to anyone . . . but it’s ok, I allow them to think whatever makes them feel good about themselves while they sit behind a computer criticizing me).

    There are not a whole lot of people willing to help out/go into the nursing home mission field (been doing it solo for over the last year now) but it is vitally important as every one of those in there are in the last chapters of their lives. I wrote a brief piece on this back in 2007 (when I had assistance) that you might be interested in.

    I too have a high proportion of Romanists in attendance. I just keep pounding the gospel. No matter where I am in Scripture, I make a beeline for the cross over and over and over gain. I have even used the Way of the Master “technique” (for lack of a better term) as the Law-then-Gospel approach is biblical.

    Is it confrontational? Yeah, the gospel tends to do that, but we’re not called to sugar coat the message. Will you eventually offend someone? Yeah, but as long as you are preaching the text faithfully, you have no control over that and are not at fault.

    I recall a dear Romanist woman who came weekly, then bi-weekly when I went from weekly to bi-weekly (no help and a growing family will tend to necessitate that). She came for several years (one of the faithful ones) to hear the message. One day she stopped coming when she got offended while I was going through Galatians because Galatians dealt with circumcision. She would not return (always made excuses) and less than a year later died. I fear she may have clung to Romanism unto death; such a sad situation..

    Ministry in a nursing home can be very, very discouraging, but when I consider the only other “churches” that attempt to minister to these dying people are the JWs who drop off their reading materials, Mormons who pop in to visit a resident now and then, and the Romanist priest who holds his dead rituals once a week to provide a false sense of security to the deceived, it keeps me going. The forgotten (the sick and dying people in nursing homes across America) are not hearing the gospel anywhere else. And these people are even forgotten by the hundreds of Christian churches in the area with their countless members who are just too busy to go to nursing homes and preach the Gospel to those who are dying. That’s too bad. I guess these Christians are just preoccupied with more important stuff.

    Anyway, I said all that to say, stay encouraged in your ministry and just keep preaching the gospel. When matters of false doctrine arises (e.g. purgatory, indulgences, popery, works righteousness, etc,) don’t pull punches, just be bold, address the error, and continue to preach Christ and Him crucified.

    You may not see results until the other side of eternity, and sometimes even the nurses are the ones who get to hear the gospel.

    Keep up the work, do not compromise, faithfully preach the Word, and stay encouraged through it all.

  19. Chris:
    Great words in support for WOTM. As for Ray and Kirk being “in bed” with TBN, it’s about time the truth of the gospel was aired on this network! Prayerfully, many of those that watch the heresy spewed by these false teachers will be moved to embrace Christ through the clear presentation of His word.

    Pilgrim, thank you for your words concerning nursing homes. Our team is out two to three times a week giving the gospel on the streets but this will indeed be a new mission field for us! Thanks again … Blessings in Him

  20. Excellent post…a picture truly is worth 1,000 words! Keeping “Truthing” His Word.

  21. Thank you for your responses. I do “preach” law and gospel, I learned originally from WOTM, but after searching the scriptures I find that it is biblical, so I will continue. I do not understand a lot, and not very good with my words, but I trust that the Lord can use even me. My heart breaks for these people, please pray for a fruitful ministry there.

  22. Hi everyone, To be honest, I was just joshing with you all. I thought most of us today had photographs or camera’s and took pictures of family. My mistake, here, If you y’all don’t do family photography, Bravo! You are very, very consistent. I think photography is fine myself, Catholic or not!

    Praise Jesus, my Lord And savior!
    Your little Catholic Brother,
    Kurt

  23. Kurt, I used to be a Roman Catholic myself and like you I would have defended it vigorously. However when you simply look at the Word of God in comparison to the teachings of Rome you will find like I did that the teachings of Rome contradict the Word of God who cannot lie.
    You see Kurt, purgatory does not exist, Jesus is not a wafer and the pope is not Holy Father, there is only one Holy Father and you will see that it is God Himself if you care to read John17:11.

    Be a lover of truth Kurt and turn like I did from false religion that only muffles the voice of your conscience and does not save.

    For more information see the Bible.

  24. Dale, I love the Bible and try to read it daily, I just don’t believe in Sola Scriptura nor do I believe that you can defend that doctrine Using only Scripture. You and I will look at the same passages and walk away with completely different interpretations in light of the traditions each of us follow. I follow an inerrant/infallible tradition and you follow as best as you can on your own and with the support of the new traditions you have chosen to follow.

    In regards to the Topic at hand here.

    Do you look at photo’s of loved ones? Do you have family photography in your house?

    I would be happy to discuss any other topics on a separate thread (although I am not sure how this site works and what would be most appropriate. I am new here and happy to follow proper protocol on the site.

  25. kfilla,
    Your retort about family photos is the standard Romanist response, but it is illogical. I have never known anyone to bow down to, or pray to, or “venerate” family photos.

    You claim there is no biblical stance for “sola scriptura,” yet the Bible itself does claim to be sufficient for everything. 2 Tim 3:16-17; 2 Pet.1:3, et al

    What is not in Scripture is any validation of the papacy, the magesterium, mariolatry, mariology (perpetual virginity, sinlessness, bodily ascension, Mother of the church, co-redemptress, etc), transubstantiation, the Mass, the priesthood, support for evolutionism, iconography, purgatory, relics, sainthoods, venerating saints, indulgences, and a host of other legalistic teachings. And yet you follow a man who claims “infallibility” in an office that over the centuries has been purchased, murdered for, filled with apostasy and profligacy, multiple popes at a time contradicting each other and even preaching rank heresy.

  26. Hello Kurt,

    You said you follow Scripture plus an inerrant/infallible tradition. How do you know it is inerrant and infallible? How would I go about verifying your claim?

    Thanks,
    Bill

  27. Romanists worship their statues, trinkets, and dead man’s bones in the same way the Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto, animist, etc, worship their…statues, trinkets and dead men’s bones.

    And yet God had this very clear warning to His people in Deuteronomy 12:29-31–“When the Lord your God cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess…take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them…and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.’ You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way; for every abomination to the Lord which He hates they have done to their gods.

    Notice that last phrase. “Every abomination to the Lord which He hates they have done to their gods.” I think it’s safe to say that God considers bowing down in adoration of statues to be “abomination.” And since the God of the Old Testament is also the God of the New Testament, it is rather silly to think that this God, who condemned idolatry and the worship (oops, sorry, veneration) of pagan statues in the Law has in any wise softened His stance under the gospel.

  28. Bill,
    To answer your question, How do you know it is inerrant and infallible?

    I know it is true because both Scripture and Tradition teach this truth. It is by faith, a gift from God that I believe it and know it to be true.

    How would I go about verifying your claim?
    Read Both Scripture and The Catholic church’s Teaching on the inerrancy of the word of God and her infallibility regarding it. Scripture illuminates tradition and through the lense of tradition we properly understand scripture.

    Once you hear/see/read the truth proclaimed you either accept the truth or reject it. You either surrender to God’s and word and the Teaching authority of the church in obedient faith or you go your own way and follow other traditions/teachings.

    Faith is a gift, that cannot be earned or merited. It comes from God and our role is to simply say yes Lord, I believe.

    Ephesians 2:8
    For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

  29. Hi Glen,

    You said
    “You claim there is no biblical stance for “sola scriptura,” yet the Bible itself does claim to be sufficient for everything. 2 Tim 3:16-17; 2 Pet.1:3, et al”

    and actually, I did not say that.
    Here is what I did say,

    “nor do I believe that you can defend that doctrine Using only Scripture”

    There are many great quotes in scripture that my protestant brothers use to defend it, but you can’t use that alone. Who told you that Timothy as a book in the bible?

    And Note that it says ‘All’ scripture and not ‘Only’ Scripture in Timothy.

    And you do have great quotes from the bible regarding What is the Pillar of our faith

    1 Timothy 3:15
    but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.

    And regarding the fact that scripture can be difficult to understand
    2 Peter 3:16 – 18
    as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

    And since I know that I am the least of all and being untaught and unstable I need someone, as Peter dictates, to help me understand the difficult passages. Should I follow your guidance in how you interpret scripture? Are your understandings about these difficult passages inerrant? Peter is instructing me to be on gaurd, How do I do that unless I hold onto the apostolic teaching and interpretations of scripture handed down to us without error in and through the Pillar of the Church?
    Your little Catholic Brother,
    Kurt

  30. When I was a Catholic I bowed before a statue. I kissed the feet on the statue. We were not supposed to “pray to the statue” but to Mary represented in the statue. Here’s the problem: Men are weak, just like Aaron was weak, who prayed to the God of Israel represented in the golden calf. He wanted something “physical” to hold on to. We are fleshly and wicked in the heart.
    I thought there was some special powers attributed to the statue. The church calls statues a “sacramental.” The RCC says that if you destroy a statue, it is a desecration. Desecration means to destroy what is holy in and of itself. Therefore, the RCC says statues are holy. This confusion leads people to worship plaster and wood. In the days of the Inquistion, when torturing a believer, the inquistior would put a veil over the crucifix so that ‘jesus’ on the statue or cross would not have to “see” the torture. See how sick and twisted this is?
    When my husband and I came to Christ alone, we threw out everything, statues, rosaries, all of it. A demonic oppression left our home.

  31. sueliz1,

    Thanks be to God for setting you and your husband free! And thank you for stopping by and exposing some of the damning lies of Rome to the light of day! My step-mother is of Rome and since she moved home to New England, she has been re-connected to the collective and hates to be in the same room with a Christian who is reading the Bible.

  32. Kurt,

    Well, it wasn’t Rome who decided what books were canon – that was decided long before Rome was “in charge.”

    The “church of the living God” includes all Christians – it is not a man-made corrupt organization.

    There have been many great Christian scholars to help us understand the Scriptures, long before Rome was “in charge” and long after Christians were fed up and split off of that false religious system. We do indeed, by the way, follow the apostolic teaching and not the teaching of Rome, which perverted apostolic teaching almost beyond recognition!

    And by the way, Rome conveniently takes Scripture out of context in order to use it as “proof texts” for their false teachings, much the same way as other cults do. How else can they find mariology and purgatory and the papacy, etc, etc, etc. None of it is even hinted at in Scripture.

  33. Dear Manfred,
    Don’t give up on your mother in law. All things are possible and I am a witness of that. My close friend who was a nun, is now a born again believer!!! We both attended the same catholic college. She was in deep bondage and is now filled with joy.
    Your mother in law is also in bondage, but God’s grace is bigger. Just keep loving her and witnessing the Gospel. Faith comes by hearing the word of God!
    Try not to get in bickering theological debates. The Word is enough. A two edged sword!
    Amen!

  34. Thanks for your encouragement, sueliz. My step-mother has been exposed to the Gospel and my wife and I pray for her, realizing it is God alone Who has chosen who He will save. I do know He saves whom He has chosen as it pleases Him, as shown in the life of a friend of mine : http://defendingcontending.com/2011/04/22/the-power-of-the-word-of-god/

    Blessings in Christ to the called.

  35. Sue,

    If you thought,
    “there was some special powers attributed to the statue.”

    I can see why you stopped being Catholic, I would too, as that just sounds weird.

    Yes the church calls a statue a sacramental
    The catechism teaches in #1670

    Sacramentals do not confer the grace of the Holy Spirit.

    They are merely signs with no special powers outside of the Grace at work in your heart and your disposition. It sounded like your inner disposition was incorrect in regards to the sacramentals and therefore it would make sense why the demons left your home. Praise be Jesus!

    again the Catechism teaches,
    1677 Sacramentals are sacred signs
    1678 Among the sacramentals blessings occupy an important place. They include both praise of God for his works and gifts, and the Church’s intercession for men that they may be able to use God’s gifts according to the spirit of the Gospel.

    The church teaches that these images are merely to direct our hearts and minds to praise God. I am grateful for your post and your witness and pray that the holy Spirit continue to lead you into the heart of Jesus and Jesus alone in the Spirit of the Gospel.
    May Christ be praised forever,
    Your little Catholic Brother,
    Kurt

  36. Dear Kurt,
    Shalom.
    The command of God does not change, even if the Council of Nicaea says it does:
    The CCC says:
    2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons – of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new “economy” of images.

    2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and “whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.”70 The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:
    (end of quote)

    When the Jewish apostles realized Jesus was God, did they set up shrines and statues in their homes of Moses and Abraham? Did they light candles around them and lay flowers at their feet?! NO!!! It was and still is SIN. Neither did they “pray” to the dead, or ask them to pray for them.

  37. HEY PARTY PEOPLE!

    YES! God forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues. Instead, he actually commanded their use in religious contexts! Nevermind “tradition” because I know that seems like a bad word… (Even when Paul uses it? 2 Tim. 2:2, 2 Thess. 2:15)…let’s just stick to Scripture.

    “And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be” (Ex. 25:18–20).

    David gave Solomon the plan “for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan” (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was “by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all,” included statues of angels.

    During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to “make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live” (Num. 21:8–9).

    Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, “On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim.”

    As Catholics we use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted.(like family photos as kfilla said) Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.

    If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these “graven” images, they would be practicing the “idolatry” of which they accuse Catholics. But there’s no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images as gods, but he doesn’t ban the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned. But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.

    Our beloved St. Paul tells us…
    1 Col. 1:15 “He is the image of the invisible God”

    Is Jesus a graven image?

  38. The church teaches that these images are merely to direct our hearts and minds to praise God.

    So then, these images are to take the place of the Holy Spirit. for Christ said, “When He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you” (John 16:13-14). and Paul said, “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?” (1st Corinthians 3:16)

    I suppose when one does not have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them they need statues, trinkets, and dead men’s bones.

    PS–until you put away your idolatry and worship of statues (whether or not you call it worship does not make a difference, it is still worship), please stop referring to yourself as our “brother.”

  39. Pilgrim, thanks for the visual comparison. The average devout Catholic (like so many other religious people, including Mormons, JW’s and many Evangelicals), thinks and reasons within the confines of what is “lawful” or acceptable to think, that is, as their church approves and dictates. Catholic saint Ignacio Loyola expressed the Catholic mindset well: “We should always be disposed to believe that that which appears white is really black, if the hierarchy of the Church so decides”.

    Once spiritual truth ceases to be only what God defines and testifies to in the whole of His Word, and becomes what the church authority says it is, then one’s eternity hangs upon the dictates of such church authority. In such a case, appeals to logic, reason, or any source that is at variance with such human authority is usually dismissed as a threat to one’s eternity. The fear of losing one’s eternal soul is a strong motivator to cause one to believe whatever they tell you to believe, and to rationalize that it MUST be true, because the alternative is unthinkable. Combine this with the spiritual darkness the unsaved already possesses, and it’s not hard to understand why it is so difficult to reason with a religious person (whether Catholic, Mormon, JW, etc.)

    Since the very thought that one may be wrong runs contrary to man’s pride, the deceived soul grasps for the twisted interpretations of Scripture provided for them by their church in support of their church so that they can tell themselves they are really in the right church after all. Then there are the distortions of church history, word gymnastics, and other techniques also provided by their church to give them “proof” that their church is the correct one.

    Only the unadulterated, uncompromising Word of God has the power to break through such darkness.

  40. Hi Four pointer,

    My belief is that the holy Spirit does the directing of our hearts to God, for it is by grace alone through the Spirit that we can give praise to God. An image of a person created by the hand of God is a reminder of our creator, we are made in his image, by him, in him and for him and as his grace works through us, these sacramentals remind us of the giver of life, They do not take the place of the Holy Spirit, but rather The Holy Spirit is the one that turns our hearts to the creator and not the created.

    As Catholics we believe that our separated protestant family are still part of the church and still our Brothers and Sisters and I feel that you are all my brothers and sisters in Christ, We may not be in fully unity but we are all part of God’s family. I am sorry my reference to myself as your brother offended you, I will refrain from saying that out of a desire to submit to one another out of love for Christ. I did not mean to offend, my sincere apologies my friend.

    In Christ,
    Kurt

  41. If these statues, trinkets and dead men’s bones are only meant to “remind” us, then why bow down to them? If they’re just a “reminder” then don’t bow down to them.

    That was the sin of Israel over and over again, envying their pagan neighbors who had visual deities they worshipped, hence the reason for the command from Deuteronomy I quoted above. And again in Deuteronomy, he warned the people, upon pain of death, not to try and create images of God in order to bow down to them in Deuteronomy 4:15-23–“Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any animal that is on the earth or the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground or the likeness of any fish that is in the water beneath the earth. And take heed, lest you lift your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun, the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, you feel driven to worship them and serve them, which the Lord your God has given to all the peoples under the whole heaven as a heritage…Take heed to yourselves, lest you forget the covenant of the Lord your God which He made with you, and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of anything which the Lord your God has forbidden you.”

    God is very clear–we are not to make any image in order to bow down to it. And I know the tired, lame Roman argument–“But, but, but…God told Moses to make images of angels over the mercy seat!! What about that???” Yes, He did…and what do you think God’s reaction would have been if the priests in the temple or tabernacle started bowing down to the statues? Would He not have been moved to anger over His priests bowing down to statues? Yes, he would.

    God hated idolatry under the old covenant. He hates idolatry under the new covenant. And nothing that any Infallible Magisterium™ says can change that fact. And if you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, you do not need idols to remind you of Christ.

  42. Hi Four pointer,

    this is such a great post. your first comment is so important,
    “If these statues, trinkets and dead men’s bones are only meant to “remind” us, then why bow down to them? If they’re just a “reminder” then don’t bow down to them.”

    That is exactly the truth, We don’t bow down TO them, We bow down in Prayer TO God. Any catholic that would Worship a statue would definitely be walking in serious error.

    It is exactly like the psalmist states

    Psalm 5:7
    7 But as for me, by Your abundant lovingkindness I will enter Your house,
    At Your holy temple I will bow in reverence for You.

    Some here on this board might think of this chap in today’s world as being idolatrous towards a Church and that this poor man was bowing down to the actual building and its physical stones and bricks. But see the heart here, he does it in reverance to God. And so to0 do I in every bow and every genuflection and every moment of prayer before the grandeur and wonder of our Great God

    Thank you for making this disctinction, it is a very important one.
    Kurt

    Glen,

    You said,
    “kfilla,
    Your retort about family photos is the standard Romanist response, but it is illogical. I have never known anyone to bow down to, or pray to, or “venerate” family photos.”

    So you agree that you could simply look at a family photo and at the same time give Praise and thanks to God for his Grace at work in your family (With or without the head bow)? Would that be acceptable to you as a non Romanist or would you not do that?

    What do you think of this poem? Do all things all around you cause you to Praise God? Do you desire to pray unceasingly, even while you look at a family photo, or the Earth, or fire or Moon?

    Most High, all-powerful, all-good Lord,
    All praise is Yours, all glory, honor and blessings.
    To you alone, Most High, do they belong;
    no mortal lips are worthy to pronounce Your Name.

    We praise You, Lord, for all Your creatures,
    especially for Brother Sun,
    who is the day through whom You give us light.
    And he is beautiful and radiant with great splendor,
    of You Most High, he bears your likeness.

    We praise You, Lord, for Sister Moon and the stars,
    in the heavens you have made them bright, precious and fair.

    We praise You, Lord, for Brothers Wind and Air,
    fair and stormy, all weather’s moods,
    by which You cherish all that You have made.

    We praise You, Lord, for Sister Water,
    so useful, humble, precious and pure.

    We praise You, Lord, for Brother Fire,
    through whom You light the night.
    He is beautiful, playful, robust, and strong.

    We praise You, Lord, for Sister Earth,
    who sustains us
    with her fruits, colored flowers, and herbs.

    We praise You, Lord, for those who pardon,
    for love of You bear sickness and trial.
    Blessed are those who endure in peace,
    by You Most High, they will be crowned.

    We praise You, Lord, for Sister Death,
    from whom no-one living can escape.
    Woe to those who die in their sins!
    Blessed are those that She finds doing Your Will.
    No second death can do them harm.

    We praise and bless You, Lord, and give You thanks,
    and serve You in all humility.

    Glenn,

    “Well, it wasn’t Rome who decided what books were canon – that was decided long before Rome was “in charge.””

    Great, so who did decide? Please articulate it. My answer is the Church finalize in the first 400 years after Christ, take “Rome” out if you like. What is your answer?

    Glenn said
    “The “church of the living God” includes all Christians – it is not a man-made corrupt organization.”

    Great. we agree. You have an proper understanding of the Church in accordance with the Catholic churches teachings on it as documented in Lumen Gentium.

    Glenn Said,
    There have been many great Christian scholars to help us understand the Scriptures, long before Rome was “in charge” and long after Christians were fed up and split off of that false religious system. We do indeed, by the way, follow the apostolic teaching and not the teaching of Rome, which perverted apostolic teaching almost beyond recognition!

    Again, we agree that Tradition is important and it is not the Bible alone that we follow, but rather the Bible and Christian Scholars. I am glad that you acknowledge that.

    Glenn said,
    And by the way, Rome conveniently takes Scripture out of context in order to use it as “proof texts” for their false teachings, much the same way as other cults do. How else can they find mariology and purgatory and the papacy, etc, etc, etc. None of it is even hinted at in Scripture.

    All Doctrine comes from the Deposit of Faith handed to the apostles, and the Teachings on Mariology and Purgatory are found both Scripture and Tradition. Yes, both Catholics and Protestants are good at proof texting, most protestant are better at it though in my opinion. In the end you and I just disagree on who is right about the actual interpretation of these difficult passages.

    Your little Catholic Brother,
    Kurt

  43. Kurt,

    When praying before a Mary statue, you are bowing before Mary, not God.

    Kurt, no offense but you are not speaking the full truth.

    You said:
    As Catholics we believe that our separated protestant family are still part of the church and still our Brothers and Sisters and I feel that you are all my brothers and sisters in Christ, We may not be in fully unity but we are all part of God’s family.
    My reply:
    The Council of Trent has not changed the fact that anyone who believes they are saved by grace alone is anathema (cursed). This has NOT changed, nor will it. This whole “family” thing is a farce from Rome to unite under her “authority.”

    CANON 9: “If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.”

    This does not sound like beloved “separated brothers and sisters, does it?”

    CANON 12: “If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified … let him be accursed”

    Canon 14: “If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema.”

    Canon 23: “lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,- except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema.”

    anon 24: “If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.”

    Canon 30: “If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema.”

    Canon 33: “If any one saith, that, by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.

  44. Sueliz1,

    “When praying before a Mary statue, you are bowing before Mary, not God.”
    Is God not present all around me? I would say he is there, It is the doctrine of Omnipresence, and I do not bow before Mary, it’s just a statue, Mary isn’t in it. It is just a reminder of God’s great handiwork.

    Lumen Gentium is a great read, it ties it all together. It gives us clarity and hope, knowing that our separated brothers and sisters are united with us and all of the church in and what they believe when those beliefs are in unity with Her, it doesn’t seem like a farce to me but I still respect you as a sister in Christ and respect your opinion.

    I do think you may have been mixed up in your lingo though when you said,

    The Council of Trent has not changed the fact that anyone who believes they are saved by grace alone is anathema (cursed).

    You meant to say Faith Alone not Grace alone, We catholics can fully embrace grace alone but yes the doctrine of faith alone is contradictory to

    James 2:24
    You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

    And to be honest, Anathema’s are juridical in nature and not part of the Deposit of Faith, they can be abolished and by Canon law of 1983 actually were. They also only applied to someone who was catholic at the time and then chose to follow false teachings and they are not taught in the new catechism, outside of a reference to the history of trent. They are not applied to protestants “en masse” mainly because the church does not have jurisdiction over these communities.

    I believe the Pope apologize for many “Excommunications” during his Millennium reconciliation service, and so to do I to you. I am sorry for the historical sins of the past of the men and women of the church, we are all sinners, even our popes, and I am sorry for the the harsh way we treated one another century through century.
    In the love of Christ,
    Kurt

  45. Kurt,
    You state this about statues of Mary…
    ‘ It is just a reminder of God’s great handiwork.’
    However, as Fourpointer clearly pointed out, this is sin.- Deuteronomy 4:15-23–“Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female’… You cannot dance around this one. You and your church are in grievous sin, the sin of idolatry.

    Your only arguments against God’s word and all that has been given to you here is based on what you believe which is nothing more than your opinion based on your wisdom. What does the Bible say about the human mind? From Jeremiah 17:9,”The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it? ” Heart is from the Hebrew word leb and means ‘mind, knowledge, thinking, reflection, memory’. The mind, thought-life, understanding and reasoning of mankind is deceitful, which means ‘trickery, fraudulent, polluted’. God’s word also says our minds are desperately sick, which means ‘incurable, sick, woeful’.
    Still wanna trust your own beliefs and reject God’s word as the sole authority?

    As for this erroneous claim from you, “You meant to say Faith Alone not Grace alone, We catholics can fully embrace grace alone but yes the doctrine of faith alone is contradictory to
    James 2:24 ‘You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone’. You misunderstand what James is saying, those who have saving faith prove such by their works, which God has prepared beforehand for His people, because He is the one who wills us to do good works {Ephesians 2:10}. How are sinners saved? Read Ephesians 2:8-9, ‘ For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. ‘ God’s word contradicts your false belief that one must ‘work’ to be saved; also, faith is a gift given by God, as Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches. This makes null and void your religious traditions that insist you must ‘do’ something to be saved. God does it all, based solely on His grace because Jesus Christ was the atoning sacrifice for the sins of those who would believe, by God’s grace.

    I find it amazing you Catholics deny the authority of scripture, then you turn around and quote verses to justify your sin of idolatry. You will die and spend eternity in absolute agony because you cling to a false religion and to the teachings of men, you follow rituals and dead works hoping that will grant you entrance into God’s kingdom. He abhors what you believe because it is rebellious, idolatrous, and wicked. May God open your blind eyes and deaf ears and grant you understanding, may He free you from the dead religion you adhere to…may He be merciful to you.

  46. Kurt, you said this …..”Do you look at photo’s of loved ones? Do you have family photography in your house?”…in defense of idolatry.

    Yes, of course we look at photos of loved ones, even dead loved ones, the major difference being these photos are true representations of our dead loved ones,
    N.B. nobody knows what Mary,Peter, or Jesus Christ looked like,therefore these images you have “to remind you” are false images, I hope you can see that.

    You also said numerous times “Your little Catholic Brother,
    Kurt”…as Fourpointer quite rightly corrected you, you cannot be seriously considered a Christian until you turn your back on Rome and it’s idolatry and therefore are not our brother….N.B. Your baptism does not save you and until you recieve Jesus Christ you are not a child of God, as the word of God says.. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.John 1:12-13

    Just a couple of points that I hope will help you, as they have helped me escape from Rome’s false religion.

    Be a lover of truth Kurt…The truth shall set you

  47. Totally great post. It’s like “twit-cure”, pictures in a hundred forty or less. I would be really interested if anyone from an RC camp could even mount an attack using the same method.

    Regarding the commenter who stated: “..and I do not bow before Mary, it’s just a statue, Mary isn’t in it. It is just a reminder of God’s great handiwork.” Sir,, I think that qualifies as an Idol. I can’t drive my car around day after day and then expect anyone to believe me when I say it isn’t my car.

  48. Michael,
    when you said,
    Regarding the commenter who stated: “..and I do not bow before Mary, it’s just a statue, Mary isn’t in it. It is just a reminder of God’s great handiwork.” Sir,, I think that qualifies as an Idol. I can’t drive my car around day after day and then expect anyone to believe me when I say it isn’t my car.

    Your example is a bit unclear to me,
    I mean,
    It is your car and I believe it is yours, and Mary is God’s Vessel and I believe Mary belongs to God who is the driver. You and all christians belong to God, he created you and if I take a picture of you, you are not physically there and if I stop for a moment and pray for you as I look at your picture it is because God is in the drivers seat of your Car and it is the Lord of the car, the Lord of Your heart, It is God that I worship and pray to, not some piece of paper or a statue

    All good gifts around us remind me of our God who made them, yet those gifts are not my idols because they are mere reminders to me of God are they? I am not sure I follow you. I am trying to understand your point in light of Romans 1.
    romans 1 20
    20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

    Dale,

    you stated,
    Yes, of course we look at photos of loved ones, even dead loved ones, the major difference being these photos are true representations of our dead loved ones,
    N.B. nobody knows what Mary,Peter, or Jesus Christ looked like,therefore these images you have “to remind you” are false images, I hope you can see that.

    so can I ask would you logically conclude that any Artist that painted Jesus, anyone ever in history would be in grave sin, and anyone who looks at a painting in an art museum would in sin, or is it just the people that feel in their heart an inspiration to be reminded of God’s grace via the art? I am very curious as to your reply so please do let me know, and Yes, I apologized to fourpointer for offending him by calling myself your little catholic brother. I will refrain from doing so here out of deep respect for you and your beliefs

    Dale you also stated
    Your baptism does not save you and until you recieve Jesus Christ you are not a child of God, as the word of God says.. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.John 1:12-13

    By the grace of God I was baptized as an infant and Gave my life to the Lord as a teenager on Oct 10 1988 at 1:10 in the afternoon in the middle of a cafeteria at college where I had a vision of the dove of the holy spirit descending into my heart and recreated me inside and out. I wept for my sins, confessed them to God, and committed my life to him as my personal Lord and savior. I received a scripture verse in my heart I did not know by memory “whoever is in Christ is a new creation the old has gone and the new has come”, I was set free from the bondage of a drug addiction, unchastity and more. I was given a new start, a new life with Jesus as the center of my life, 20+ years later, I continue to surrender my life to Christ Daily.

    Lyn

    You said,
    Your only arguments against God’s word and all that has been given to you here is based on what you believe which is nothing more than your opinion based on your wisdom

    Actually I said,

    “And since I know that I am the least of all and being untaught and unstable I need someone, as Peter dictates, to help me understand the difficult passages.”

    so truly I don’t rely on my own wisdom for on my own I am nothing and can do nothing of any good on my own. The only thing I can do on my own is sin.

    Lyn
    You said
    ”The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it? ” Heart is from the Hebrew word leb and means ‘mind, knowledge, thinking, reflection, memory’. The mind, thought-life, understanding and reasoning of mankind is deceitful, which means ‘trickery, fraudulent, polluted’. God’s word also says our minds are desperately sick, which means ‘incurable, sick, woeful’.

    I say,
    Amen sister ( I hope you don’t mind me calling you sister!) Preach it. I believe this with my whole heart and mind and soul My heart is deceitful and as I mentioned early in referring to Peter’s teaching

    “2 Peter 3:16 – 18
    as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,”

    I desperately need someone to help me understand difficult passages.

    Because when I read God’s word such as

    James 2:24
    You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

    I am tempted to simply believe what God word’s says, but as you mentioned I can’t rely on God’s word alone because it is so easy to misinterpret it.
    I believe you said,

    “You misunderstand what James is saying”

    And my conclusion here is that you mean to say I need God’s word alone, plus someone to help me understand it properly? Just like said Peter in that it is difficult to understand right?

    May I ask you sincerely to pray for me Lyn, I would very much desire that and I will pray for you too, for unity, that by the unity of christians the world will come to know our Lord Jesus.

    Peace in Christ,
    Kurt

  49. Kurt,

    Here is a verse from 2 Timothy 1:8-9 that states we are not saved by works…”Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began”.

    Ephesians 2:8-9 also states how we are saved, by grace, not of works, lest any man boast.
    Since God’s word does not contradict, the only logical conclusion to come to is that you have misinterpreted James….here is commentary from John Gill, a theologian, bible scholar, and Baptist pastor; Born in Kettering, Northamptonshire, he attended Kettering Grammar School where he mastered the Latin classics and learned Greek by age 11. He continued self-study in everything from logic to Hebrew, his love for the latter remaining throughout his life…

    “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,…. Not as causes procuring his justification, but as effects declaring it; for the best works are imperfect, and cannot be a righteousness justifying in the sight of God, and are unprofitable in this respect; for when they are performed in the best manner, they are no other than what it is a man’s duty to perform, and therefore cannot justify from sin he has committed: and besides, justification in this sense would frustrate the grace of God, make void the death of Christ, and encourage boasting in men. Good works do not go before justification as causes or conditions, but follow it as fruits and effects:

    and not by faith only: or as without works, or a mere historical faith, which being without works is dead, of which the apostle is speaking; and therefore can bear no testimony to a man’s justification; hence it appears, that the Apostle James does not contradict the Apostle Paul in Rom_3:28 since they speak not of the same sort of faith; the one speaks of a mere profession of faith, a dead and lifeless one; the other of a true faith, which has Christ, and his righteousness, for its object, and works by love, and produces peace, joy, and comfort in the soul. Moreover, the Apostle Paul speaks of justification before God; and James speaks of it as it is known by its fruits unto men; the one speaks of a justification of their persons, in the sight of God; the other of the justification and approbation of their cause, their conduct, and their faith before men, and the vindication of them from all charges and calumnies of hypocrisy, and the like; the one speaks of good works as causes, which he denies to have any place as such in justification; and the other speaks of them as effects flowing from faith, and showing the truth of it, and so of justification by it; the one had to do with legalists and self-justiciaries, who sought righteousness not by faith, but by the works of the law, whom he opposed; and the other had to do with libertines, who cried up faith and knowledge, but had no regard to a religious life and conversation; and these things considered will tend to reconcile the two apostles about this business, but as effects declaring it; for the best works are imperfect, and cannot be a righteousness justifying in the sight of God, and are unprofitable in this respect; for when they are performed in the best manner, they are no other than what it is a man’s duty to perform, and therefore cannot justify from sin he has committed: and besides, justification in this sense would frustrate the grace of God, make void the death of Christ, and encourage boasting in men. Good works do not go before justification as causes or conditions, but follow it as fruits and effects:

    and not by faith only: or as without works, or a mere historical faith, which being without works is dead, of which the apostle is speaking; and therefore can bear no testimony to a man’s justification; hence it appears, that the Apostle James does not contradict the Apostle Paul in Rom_3:28 since they speak not of the same sort of faith; the one speaks of a mere profession of faith, a dead and lifeless one; the other of a true faith, which has Christ, and his righteousness, for its object, and works by love, and produces peace, joy, and comfort in the soul. Moreover, the Apostle Paul speaks of justification before God; and James speaks of it as it is known by its fruits unto men; the one speaks of a justification of their persons, in the sight of God; the other of the justification and approbation of their cause, their conduct, and their faith before men, and the vindication of them from all charges and calumnies of hypocrisy, and the like; the one speaks of good works as causes, which he denies to have any place as such in justification; and the other speaks of them as effects flowing from faith, and showing the truth of it, and so of justification by it; the one had to do with legalists and self-justiciaries, who sought righteousness not by faith, but by the works of the law, whom he opposed; and the other had to do with libertines, who cried up faith and knowledge, but had no regard to a religious life and conversation; and these things considered will tend to reconcile the two apostles about this business.”

  50. Kurt, lets not get sidetracked here, in response to your comment defending idolatry by saying “Do you not look at pictures of loved ones ?”….I said :

    ” Yes, of course we look at photos of loved ones, even dead loved ones, the major difference being these photos are true representations of our dead loved ones,
    N.B. nobody knows what Mary,Peter, or Jesus Christ looked like,therefore these images you have “to remind you” are false images, I hope you can see that.” ….
    This comment was made in the hope that your eyes would be opened to the error of your thinking and you would turn from idols. This obviously did not happen Kurt, instead you moved away from having to face up to the fact that the images you worship are false, by asking a question regarding paintings.

    Kurt can you agree with me that the images of Mary,Peter and Jesus Christ you have “to remind you”, are false ?…Yes or No will do Kurt.

    Also, you said as validation of your claim to be a Christian, “I had a vision of the dove of the holy spirit descending into my heart and recreated me inside and out.”

    I’m going to stick my neck out here and say you are either lying or mistaken, the Bible says this :
    “John 3:7-8 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

    Your “testimony” has familiarities with Jesus Christ’s baptism in Mathew 3, kurt, Jesus Christ is God and this was His coronation, this was evidence to everyone there that He was the Messiah.

    And since Jesus said you will know His people by their fruit if you had truly had this amazing experience and the Holy Spirit does indeed dwell within you, there would be evidence of that by works, which incidentally answers your question regarding what James wrote when he said; “faith without works is dead”. Our works do not save us, they are evidence that we have been saved;
    Eph 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

    To conclude then Kurt, I doubt your salvation story, I doubt your assertion that you have had the Holy Spirit dwelling with you for 20+ years while remaining in the RCC with all it’s idolatry, false teaching and no Biblical fellowship.

    You could always honour and God prove me wrong by leaving the church you are attending in favour of a Biblical church that teaches the finished work of Jesus Christ kurt ?

    Are you willing to do that ?

    Rev 18:4-5 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues; for her sins are heaped high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities…”

  51. dale,

    in regards to the original topic you wanted to stick with,

    you said,
    “Yes, of course we look at photos of loved ones, even dead loved ones, the major difference being these photos are true representations of our dead loved ones,
    N.B. nobody knows what Mary,Peter, or Jesus Christ looked like,therefore these images you have “to remind you” are false images, I hope you can see that.” ….
    This comment was made in the hope that your eyes would be opened to the error of your thinking and you would turn from idols. This obviously did not happen Kurt, instead you moved away from having to face up to the fact that the images you worship are false, by asking a question regarding paintings.”

    And to your question
    “Kurt can you agree with me that the images of Mary,Peter and Jesus Christ you have “to remind you”, are false ?…Yes or No will do Kurt.”

    I would love to engage you on this an my apologies if you thought I moved away from this. IN order to answer, please forgive me, but I have 2 more question for you to be sure I understand you, (I promise I will answer asap) but if you would be so kind to humor me I would be be very grateful. (It is hard over e-mail to be sure you understand someone so I just want to be sure we are defining things the same way before I go further).

    Look at 2 of the pictures above.
    the first one,
    the cartoon picture of calf and people of the old testament.
    Is that Golden calf true or false? ( I was not there and not sure if that truly represents what happened, I am not sure I truly know what that calf truly looked liked)

    Is the photo above of Pope John Paul II true or false?
    I will give you my answers first so you don’t feel like I am trapping you in anyway.

    I would say the first cartoon picture is False since we have no idea what that calf really looked like, I bet it was much better looking than the cartoon represents:)
    I would say the image of Pope John Paul II is true.

    Would you agree?

    Please let me know if we are on the same page and then I will immediately answer your previous question. I just want to make sure we are on the same page in our definitions about the trueness or falseness of different types of imagery.
    Peace in Christ,
    Kurt

  52. Wow!
    Sure is a lot of back & forth on this topic.

    I have four comments:
    1) Since when did it become acceptable for Roman Catholics to assert they are Christian?
    2) Orthodox Roman Catholics are NOT Christians.
    2) Roman Catholicism is a false religion – like all other works-based systems.
    3) Roman Catholic people need conversion.

    Todd
    Texas

  53. Kurt, this is not as complicated as you are making it out to be ….

    Can you agree with me that the images of Mary,Peter and Jesus Christ you have “to remind you”, are false ?…Yes or No will do Kurt.

    Be a lover of truth kurt….no more dodging this simple question please….Yes or No , which is it kurt ?

  54. Kurt,

    I think I saw someone below mention this (I’m a bit behind, playing catch-up), but there is a big difference from looking at a photo of my wife to remind me about her and looking at a statue to remind me of Jesus, et al. We have no idea what Jesus, et al looked like, so all you have are false representatives. I wrote an article explaining why this is idolatry and an insult to God at:
    http://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/2010/06/catholic-iconography-and-saints.html

    Essentially a response is this: if you had a photo of a Playboy model in your wallet and told your wife that you looked at it to remind you of her, do you think she’d be okay with that? Is not God a jealous God? Do you think Jesus is okay with you making an image of something that isn’t what He looked like and then say it reminds you of Him?

    You asked what I thought of the poem. Well, the sun isn’t a brother, nor does it bear the likeness of God. The moon is not our sister, nor are the wind and air brothers, nor is water our sister, nor fire a brother, nor earth a sister, nor death a sister. The poem is rank paganism, pantheism and panentheism.

    The CHURCH decided what was canon through its use of the various books before Romanism even existed.

    The apostles had no such “deposit of faith” as you describe. Mariology is NOT found in Scripture, nor is purgatory. They are found ONLY in Romanist tradition, made up as they went along.

    And as others on this blog have stated, you are not my “Catholic brother.” I am not a brother with Romanism – I follow no pope. And as Sue has pointed out, Rome doesn’t consider me a brother either – I am anathema.

  55. Dale,

    Then my answer is simply True.

    the images of Mary, peter and Jesus, truly remind me of Mary, Peter, and Jesus of the bible and therefore remind me of God, Creator of all things whom I worship.

    Now, is the photo of JP II above true or false?

    Peace in Christ,
    Kurt

    ———

    Todd,

    I do agree with you 100% that Catholic people need conversion! Peace in Christ!
    Kurt

  56. When we all stand in the Great Judgment before the Throne of the Triune Almighty God, Creator of heaven and earth, He will have no regard for man’s word games. Calling Him “Lord”, or calling oneself a “christian” will mean absolutely nothing. Nor will He be influenced in His judgment by all our “christian” catch phrases. Spinning, twisting and distorting His Word to allow loopholes and “justifications” to break His commandments will not avail us. Equally futile will be all excuses in defense of our sinful actions. The Lord God Almighty Jesus Christ was very specific when He said we will be judged by one, and only one criteria, His Word (Jn. 12:48). Not His Word PLUS man’s traditions, nor His Word PLUS man’s additions or amendments. By God’s Word, and His Word alone will all men be judged, no matter what their claims or affiliations.

    As fourpointer rightly testified above from Deuteronomy, the Lord God Almighty has FORBIDDEN bowing down before imagined images of Himself, (which is why He specifically did not allow man to see His form) or of bowing to images of ANY of His creation. Period. End of argument. All attempts then to justify ignoring, altering, or otherwise disobeying this commandment, no matter how “justifiable” or “reasonable” one’s argument may seem, is still disobedience to God’s command, and will merit the practitioner of such disobedience God’s wrath upon him. Also end of argument.

    All such practitioners of Idolatry, or anything else forbidden in God’s Word, would do well to repent while they yet have time.

  57. This back and forth on whether it’s considered idolatry to bow, bend, close eyes, lie down before, Genuflex or Venerate before these inanimate, lifeless objects is not the real issue. The real question and what it always comes down to for everyone who claims to believe in Christ is. In what do you ultimately place your faith in that assures you of your Salvation? Is it Faith In Christ and his finished work alone (so that you don’t have any reason to boast) OR is it, Faith in Christ together with your own works (leaving you reason to boast) that assures you of your Salvation? In other words, Was Christ work enough to finish and secure Salvation or do we need to his work by cooperating in good works and traditions to secure Salvation? Now let the real discussion begin!

  58. kurt this is my final attempt, I did not ask you whether those images remind you of anyone, that is not the question put to you (I get the feeling you know that but are deliberately being deceptive, which speaks volumes).

    Let me remind you once more.

    When confronted with the accusation that as a roman catholic you break the 2nd Commandment which is :
    Exodus 20:4-5 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God,…”

    Your response in defense of that was basically ;
    “So what don’t you have pictures/photos of your family ?” (Paraphrased).

    I replied;
    “Yes we do but they are true reflections of our relatives”…In other words, they actually look like the people we are reminded of.

    Now, my question put to you is simple; Do you agree with me that in comparison to photos of relatives, statues of Mary, Peter and Jesus Christ are false, because they do not resemble them ?

    I cannot put it any simpler than that kurt.

    Reminder Yes or No will suffice.

  59. Dale,

    I want to be clear that it does not matter if an image is either a true representation of the object or a false representation, any sinful person can Worship either one, False ones or true ones, it is not the subject matter or style used, (photography, painting, abstract, impressionism or digital photography), any object of any sort can be worshiped as an idol. I am avoiding your question because it doesn’t get to the heart of the issue which is a heart issue. God judges the heart and we as humans should not Judge one another’s hearts.

    Look at the definition of Idol
    i·dol/ˈīdl/
    Noun:
    An image or representation of a god used as an object of worship.

    You are hung up on getting me to say it is a false representation, when either an image (and yes a photo) or a representation of an image (whether it be accurate or not) can be used as an object of Worship.

    In working with someone like me from a RCC perspective you need focus on the Worship part, and address the issue of whether any of these objects can remind us of God and can we at that moment stop and pray, and yes maybe even bow our head. If we are worshipping God as the object of worship and not a photograph is it Idolatry?

    All this back and forth is rather useless on this topic as I don’t find your line of questioning persuasive when looking at what the definition of an Idol is since you are focusing on just the “representation” part of the Definition and not the entire definition. Getting me to say it is False, doesn’t mean that a photograph can’t be and IDOL, It CAN be Worshipped, for it IS an image. But if you really want to nail me down on one side of that fence, I truly believe that Art comes from the heart and as we meditate on scripture the Holy spirit breathes life into our mediation where we image the scene and the characters and the people. Bringing those images to life through art is not sinful, and looking at them is not sinful, and to the artist, and many of the admirers of the art, they are TRUE representations of the words of Scripture.

    Peace in Christ,
    Kurt

  60. Caudillo23

    I love it when you said,
    Now let the real discussion begin! Truly great topic,

    Let me ask you a question in regards to this discussion,

    This is a statement that I believe to be true, do you? if not, why?

    we are justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

    to answer your question,

    Nothing I can do on my own can merit salvation, the only thing I can do on my own is sin. Grace prompts, precedes and permeates every good work that I do so that I can. Here are some versus that stand out to me regarding this topic which I believe with all my heart.

    Romans 3:28
    For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law

    Hebrews 11:6
    And without faith it is impossible to please God,

    Romans 3:24
    and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

    Galatians 2:16
    know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

    Romans 11:6
    But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.

    How is that for a start.

    ———————————–

    Lyn,

    thank you so much for your reply.
    I believe 2 Timothy 1:8-9 and Ephesians 2:8-9 with all my heart, I agree no man can boast, I agree that we are saved by grace alone,

    the catechism teaches that both salvation and works come from Grace

    “for it is by grace that we are saved and again it is by grace that our works can bear fruit for eternal life;”

    So that no man can Boast!!!

    the catholic church teaches that,
    nothing that happens prior to justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

    My main point was to show you that I do not boast of my own wisdom and that as God’s humble servant, scripture can be difficult to understand and it is nice to have help in interpreting it, You illustrated that point beautifully too, just in the same way you shared a quote from someone whose tradition you follow that It helped you to come to believe that
    When You read James 2:24 “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone”
    that it really meant
    “Man is Justified by faith alone”. sola Fide
    May God bless you abundantly,
    Peace in Christ.
    Kurt

  61. Kurt,
    you responded with “the catechism teaches that both salvation and works come from Grace”…I ask, what does God’s word say? God’s word is the only source of truth there is, ” All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.’ 2 timothy 3:16-17

    Again, the works that born from above believers do are evidence that they are saved, not means of justification. For if we could be justified by our own works, what was the point of Christ’s atoning sacrifice? The Bible teaches all of mankind is radically depraved, there is nothing that we could do that would cause God to save us. Read this from Isaiah 64:6, “All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.” Do you see what is being said here? Every work we think is worthy of God’s favor toward us is like a filthy rag, this commentary from Matthew Henry says it quite well….”Even all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. (1.) “The best of our persons are so; we are all so corrupt and polluted that even those among us who pass for righteous men, in comparison with what our fathers were who rejoiced and wrought righteousness (v. 5), are but as filthy rags, fit to be case to the dunghill. The best of them is as a brier.’’ (2.) “The best of our performances are so. There is not only a general corruption of manners, but a general defection in the exercises of devotion too; those which pass for the sacrifices of righteousness, when they come to be enquired into, are the torn, and the lame, and the sick, and therefore are provoking to God, as nauseous as filthy rags.’’ Our performances, though they be ever so plausible, if we depend upon them as our righteousness and think to merit by them at God’s hand, are as filthy rags—rags, and will not cover us—filthy rags, and will but defile us.

    You contradict yourself by saying you believe salvation is by grace, then you keep quoting James 2:24 as proof justification is based on works and faith. Read Romans 3:24, Romans 3:28, Romans 4:2, Romans 5:1. This is the crux of all false religions, works. You must do something in order for God to save you, which stems from lack of discernment and false teaching.

    What did Jesus mean in John 3:3-7? Do you consider yourself born again and, if so, what makes you think you are?

    Those who have been regenerated by the supernatural power of God flee from false religions, they do not defend them.

  62. What’s that saying?…There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!

    As Lyn quite rightly said;
    “Those who have been regenerated by the supernatural power of God flee from false religions, they do not defend them.”

    I would not want to go back and forth either if I held your position, I would want to drop the subject also kurt.

    That being said I want to correct your thinking regarding salvation, as it is clear that you have a wrong understanding of some very important Christian doctrines, probably picked up in some RC college somewhere, am I right ??.

    You said ..”we are justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation”
    Incorrect kurt, and here is why, faith is a fruit of regeneration along with repentance, Now do you agree with that statement and if not, why not ??

    I also came across this article recently I thought might be helpful :

    “Three years ago during the Liturgy of the Mass in the eastern Polish town of Sokolka, a consecrated host was accidentally dropped on the floor by the priest who was distributing Holy Communion to the faithful. The consecrated host was then carefully placed in water in order to allow it to dissolve. However, several days later a nun discovered that the host remained undissolved. On her further inspection of the consecrated host, she noticed a distinctive red mark on it.

    According to an Associated Press report, “Two medical doctors determined that the spot was heart muscle tissue, church officials have said.”

    http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=43101

    It appears kurt, that the good catholics of Poland believe this “miracle” and flocked in their thousands to see the host being paraded through their town by a local priest…surely you do not believe that do you kurt??

    Is that what they taught you in college ?

    Jesus Christ said this …. “An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign..”Mat 12:39

    I would be greatly interested to read what you have to say regarding this type of thing that goes on in your church kurt, please respond honestly.

    Be a lover of truth ..the truth shall set you free!

  63. That is exactly the truth, We don’t bow down TO them, We bow down in Prayer TO God.

    So, why bow down in prayer to God before a statue at all? Why not just get rid of the statue altogether? Just bow down do God without the statue.

    And as for your response to sueliz, that “When praying before a Mary statue, you are bowing before Mary, not God.” Is God not present all around me?–that is one of the most clever dodges I think I’ve encountered. No matter what kind of word games you want to play, the person is bowing down to the statue.

    If I look at an animal that has webbed feet, white feathers, and quacks and waddles–I can call it a dog all I want but it’s still a duck. Likewise, if someone bows down in front of any statue, saying they’re “giving praise to God through the statue”–the Vatican can call it “veneration” all they want, but it’s still idolatry.

  64. Looking at this statement from kurt, ““When praying before a Mary statue, you are bowing before Mary, not God.” Is God not present all around me?” —that comes dangerously close to pantheism. Are you insinuating God is present in this idolatrous statue?

    Define idolatry for us Kurt.

  65. Hi lyn,
    I sincerely did not mean to imply pantheism, my apologies – I am quoting (paraphrasing poorly I guess) from Romans 1:20
    20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

    God is not in a statue, he created the artist and he is the creator of the Subject matter. If I were to Draw a picture of my daughter, God would not be in the photo, the photo just reminds me of what God has made known to me about his divine nature (through what has been made), in this case, he Made/created my daugther and therefore I am reminded of God through his handiwork. ( and I may be moved by the spirit to offer a prayer of thanksgiving for her, and I may even bow my head in reverence to almighty God – God being the object of my attention -God the Father and Jesus Christ my personal Lord and savior, who by his grace alone can I be saved.)

    Isn’t Idolatry simply
    The Religious worship of an image or other material object representing a deity.

    I worship God alone and Do not find God in any statue, photo or Stained glass window, it would be silly to worship such a thing. Worship is due only to God.

    God is a jealous god and does not want us to worship anything but him alone, as in Deuteronomy

    8 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 10 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

    ———-

    Lyn,

    I wanted to answer your question in regards to the statement from the catechism, I should have said “the bible” and apologize for the distraction there.
    I had said,
    “the catechism teaches that both salvation and works come from Grace”
    You asked
    “…I ask, what does God’s word say? ”

    Here is my reply.
    In regards to works, we see that good works are enabled to be accomplished through grace.
    Acts 14:3
    So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to perform signs and wonders.

    The spiritual gifts that God gave us are from above, when we use those gifts, or a good work is done, it is by grace that we can do it

    Romans 12:6
    We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us.

    Paul talks about his works, He says he works hard but it is not He but Grace!
    1 Corinthians 15:10
    But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.

    2 Corinthians 6:1
    As God’s co-workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain.

    Regarding Salvation, again in acts

    2 Timothy 1:9
    He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

    Acts 15:11
    No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

    Let me know if we agree or not here on this point.
    Peace in Christ Kurt

  66. Four pointers,
    you said,
    So, why bow down in prayer to God before a statue at all? Why not just get rid of the statue altogether? Just bow down do God without the statue.

    I only do that if my heart is moved for love of my savior through some moment of prayer when I am reminded of my savior. I have never considered not doing it since it does not go against my conscience to worship God no matter where I am or what I am in front of. I Just got done Praying and kneeling and bow to God in front of an abortion clinic awhile back. I was not Bowing to the abortion mill, but the slaughter of innocent life reminded me of the need for prayer and I stayed there for quite some time on the sidewalk, begging God to save life. It is the heart that God cares about. But as you say, I often bow down to God with a statue, in fact, I try to daily be alone in my room, with my bible, with my head bowed. And no, I am not worshipping my bible!!!

  67. Lyn,
    You said,
    Read this from Isaiah 64:6, “All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.” Do you see what is being said here? Every work we think is worthy of God’s favor toward us is like a filthy rag

    I do see that, Is 64:6 is quite clear about our state, we are all unclean, praise God we have a savior in Jesus Christ.

    The only work I could ever think is worthy of God’s favor is one that he accomplishes through me, through Grace, I cling to righteousness that is credited by Faith Apart from the Law so that no man can boast.

    Romans 4:4-6

    4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

    Peace in Christ,
    Kurt

  68. Four pointer,

    You said,
    If I look at an animal that has webbed feet, white feathers, and quacks and waddles–I can call it a dog all I want but it’s still a duck.
    Amen, I agree, it would still be a duck, now what if you got down on your hands gave the little duck a pat on the head and bowed in a moment of prayer and thanked God for the beauty, of joy of his creation. What if that duck brought you joy, Would it be okay to give God a moment of thankful praises? Maybe not with a head bow, What if you turn your head upward and gave thanks to heaven and the duck was just near you, would that be okay?

    What about gratefulness to God for a Sunset. Have you ever prayed seeing the Sun rise or set on the ocean?

    You also said,

    “Likewise, if someone bows down in front of any statue, saying they’re “giving praise to God through the statue”–the Vatican can call it “veneration” all they want, but it’s still idolatry.”

    Fourpointer, I think your point is a good one in that Catholics or any christian should not Give Praise to God THROUGH the Statue. That sounds very near idolatrous. We give praise to God through our actions, our thoughts, our word, and mostly our heart. the statue is nothing more than some man made article and I too do not think we should praise God through it. That seems to be a good reminder for all.

    Here is my position about art and statues and the rest,

    This is from Gregory the Great to Serenus
    Not without reason has antiquity allowed the stories of saints to be painted in holy places. And we indeed entirely praise thee for not allowing them to be adored, but we blame thee for breaking them. For it is one thing to adore an image, it is quite another thing to learn from the appearance of a picture what we must adore. What books are to those who can read, that is a picture to the ignorant who look at it; in a picture even the unlearned may see what example they should follow; in a picture they who know no letters may read. Hence, for barbarians especially a picture takes the place of a book

    So I simply say that imagery has its place, but should never take the place of God. And if I see a painting nest time I go To the art museum in Chicago of the last supper and stop for a moment with heartfelt thanks. I may be tempted to pray and thank God for the Sacrifice of his only son. I might also pray for you, but I will do so without a bow, out of honor for you and your love For God and Zeal for his grace and power.

    Peace,
    Kurt

  69. How did you become a roman catholic kurt ?

    or am I on ignore button ?…lol

  70. Kurt,
    You said:

    I only do that if my heart is moved for love of my savior through some moment of prayer when I am reminded of my savior.

    My reply:
    Do you really need a statue to be reminded of your savior??

  71. Well, this is truly sad. According to Kurt, the Catholic can commit an act of Idolatry (bowing/kneeling in reverence before an image) with a clear conscience (evidently), because all they have to do to justify it in their own mind is to tell themselves that 1) “it’s not idolatry,not really, at least I don’t think of it in that way” (despite the fact that God expressly forbids the act, as testified earlier from His Word), and 2) one isn’t “worshipping” the image, one is really worshipping God while bowing before the image in reverence (even though one is in the very act of rebellion to God’s specific command by practicing such behavior).

    This is highly reminiscent of the temptation of Eve in the Garden. God commanded Adam and Eve NOT to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts. Eve (and Adam) did what God specifically commanded her not to do, because in her mind, it was okay to eat of it (she saw it was pleasant to the eyes, good for food, good to make one wise). The rest is history. Looks like the same old tricks just keep on working.

  72. I am hoping that some of these comments will grip Kurt’s heart, to see the reality of idolatry.

    ——

    Dear David,

    There is no use beating a dead horse as the saying goes. I am a ex-Catholic. I did all the idolatry stuff and thought it was fine since “mother church” told me it was. Kurt’s final authority is not the bible, but the magisterium,, the catechism and dogma.
    What did pull me out eventually was the reality of the RCC calling for a world government, global taxes, international climate change, and ecumenical “dialogue” with false religions. I then compared the bible to the catechism finding multitudes of contradictions. By the grace of God, I was set free from Rome. Thank you Lord!

  73. This might double post, because my earlier post never showed. David, Kurt’s final authority is not the bible. It’s the magisterium, the catechism and dogma. Being an ex-Catholic, I was blind and deaf to everything idolatrous.
    After I saw the Vatican calling for world govt., a world bank, international climate change law and global taxes, I started questioning ‘mother church.’ I started comparing the bible to the catechism and saw loads of contradiction. Like the church calling Islam in the plan of salvation in a special way. Vatican 2 also says Buddhists CAN achieve DIVINE illumination in praying to their false gods. That did it. After much prayer for a year, and much reading, my husband and I trusted in Christ alone, threw out all of our idols and left Rome. Thank you Lord.

  74. dale,

    I was born and raised catholic, (you are not on the ignore button, I have just been a bit ill today)

    Here are some replies to questions above,

    I spent 1 year at a wesleyan college
    2 years at a catholic college
    1.5 years at the university of Illinois where I received a bachelors in Psych with a Piano Minor.
    I have 7 kids (1 in heaven) and married for 20 years.
    I am an owner and Senior executive at an online Advertising company in Grand rapids Mi. This has been a delightful distraction from my busy day, speaking with you on this site was been wonderful. I stumbled upon it as I was doing searches for more info on one of my favorite christian artists, David Crowder. (I think it best if I stay out of that post so the moderators don’t boot me as some “troll” as they call it on their rules of engagement).
    I don’t know much about your polish nun/miracle that you mention but my faith is not based on the validity of any such reported event. If you are asking if I believe Jesus is present in the Eucharist, body blood soul and divinity? You bet!
    You also asked,
    “faith is a fruit of regeneration along with repentance, Now do you agree with that statement and if not, why not ??”

    My reply at this point is:
    Can you show me in scripture where it says Faith is the fruit of regeneration?

    You disagreed with me When I said
    “We are justified by faith and faith is the beginning of salvation”
    I was speaking about romans 3 and Romans 10

    romans 3:5
    Romans 3:28
    For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

    And in regards to Romans 10

    I simply meant the order in which it is declared to be such in Romans 10:
    But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

    The word is preached – then
    1.) in the heart one believes (I call that faith)
    2.) resulting in righteousness and
    3.) confession of that faith
    4.) resulting in Salvation

    My apologies if I missed any of your questions, do let me know if I missed anything important as I am enjoying our dialogue a lot, and honored that you chat with me, even if not considered a brother by most here.

    suezliz1 said
    My reply:
    Do you really need a statue to be reminded of your savior??

    Absolutely not! I don’t need any statue at all to remind me of Jesus.

    David,
    You said,
    “Well, this is truly sad. According to Kurt, the Catholic can commit an act of Idolatry (bowing/kneeling in reverence before an image) with a clear conscience (evidently)”

    If I kneel before my bed with my bible open praying to God, am I worshiping the bible or the bed? would this be acceptable in your mind, or should I never kneel in front of a bible? If you could help me out on this and let me know what you think about this idea, it may clear up a few things for me. I do not find it to be tenable to consider every bow or every time on my knees in my life an act of Idolatry as you stated above.

    you defined Idolatry as
    “Idolatry (bowing/kneeling in reverence before an image)”

    Merriam websters definition is
    Idolatry
    the worship of a physical object as a god.

    I don’t believe any statue or any object is a God nor do I worship any of them. I worship only Jesus my personal Lord and Savior. In regards to the quotes from the old testament, I understand how your tradition may hold onto these verses to object to me but I don’t find any substance to the illogical conclusion that these old Testament commandments were ever to be understood as an absolute and universal prohibition of the creation of any kind of image. If so, the use of photography would be universally condemned by every protestant in your camp if you carry out the logical conclusions of the arguments presented here.

    I know fourpointer was pretty clear about Deut
    “lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female”

    I just don’t believe that pottery is a sin in this age, and Photography had not been invented, so the way FP is presenting the argument, ‘carved’ must not be taken literally for there are many ways to create an Idol, other ways back then and more innovative ways now. Earlier I wanted to move the conversation away from just carved images of representations merely because that is part of the larger issue laid out here in the initial images on this post which included catholic faithful praying to God in front of a photo of blessed John Paul II.

    Fourpointer also stressed what he thought God’s reaction would be to someone bowing before the statues in the tabernacle/Temple of the OLD testament and Yet I pointed out clearly already that this is what the psalmist does out of reverence for God and I don’t see any other words in psalm 5: that express the anger that fourpointer insists God has to this act. The statues were there, in the temple, and the bow occurred and all was well because it was done with Almighty God as the object of the act of reverence.

    May all of you be blessed, I want to say again, how honored I am to be here among you and for you to take time to engage me. I will pray for all of you tonight, sincerely mean that. (no bowing will occur – I promise!).

    Peace in christ,
    kurt

  75. kfilla,

    I was raised in the Catholic Church and went to Mass almost every Sunday until I was 23. The statues and images by themselves are not a problem for me, but the assertion that they are reminders that help Catholics worship God is not the case for millions of Catholics.

    Consider the Pontifical prayer of Pope Pius XII, TO MARY, in his celebration of the Marian Year in 1950:

    “Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, oh Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother. … Oh Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell … Oh Mary, cover our aching wounds: convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church. … Receive, Oh sweet Mother, our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are Glory, you are the Joy, you are the Honor of our people.”

    Aren’t we supposed to case our anxieties on God? Isn’t the Holy Spirit supposed to convict us of sin? Isn’t God supposed to be our comforter and counselor? Aren’t we going to be singing hymns around the throne of Christ our Savior? Aren’t we supposed to give glory to God, and Him alone? Isn’t He our joy?

    Pope John Paul II — who I liked when I was younger — attributed almost every good thing that ever happened to him to Mary. If Popes pray to Mary and ascribe the powers of God to her, certainly millions of Catholics do too.

    Take a minute and look up the Kondakion — a set of twenty-four chants (prayers) directed to Mary — published by the Catholic Church. Many of the stanzas ascribe to Mary, powers that are only God’s. I have written in brackets whose power she is ascribed — God’s, Christ’s, or the Holy Spirit’s.

    From the First Chant:

    “Hail, O Restoration of the fallen Adam;” [Christ]

    From the Third Chant:
    “Hail, O bridge leading from earth to heaven!” [Christ]
    “Hail, O you who illumine the minds of the faithful!” [Holy Spirit]

    From the Fifth Chant:
    “Hail, O propitiation for all the world!” [Christ]

    From the Ninth Chant:
    “Hail, O you who deliver us from pagan doctrine;
    Hail, O you who rescue us from the flames of passion.” [Holy Spirit]

    From the Eleventh Chant:
    “Hail, O Rock who quenched those who thirst for life!” [God]
    “Hail, O Pillar of fire who guided those in darkness;” [God]

    From the Thirteenth Chant:
    “Hail, O intercessor with the righteous Judge; [Christ]
    Hail, O forgiveness for many transgressors.” [Christ]

    From the Seventeenth Chant:
    “Hail, ship of salvation to men of good will;
    Hail, haven for those who struggle on the ocean of life.” [Christ]

    From the Nineteenth Chant:
    “Hail, for you did regenerate our fallen race; [Christ]
    Hail, for you did instill the truth in minds lacking truth.” [Christ, Holy Spirit]

    From the Twenty-First Chant:
    “Hail, O remover of the abomination of sin.” [Christ]

    From the Twenty-Fourth Chant:
    “O MOTHER worthy of all praise, … deliver all men from every affliction, and save from the future punishment those who cry out to you: Alleluia!” [God, Christ]

    There are many other prayers addressed to Mary and others that I have collected over the years, but this sampling makes the point.

    It really doesn’t even matter if you’re looking at an image — if you’re praying to, and/or ascribing the powers of the Triune God to someone/something else, you’re worshiping an idol. Whether it’s called veneration, adoration, or worship, and whether or not it involves a picture or a statue, it’s idolatry if you direct it to anyone/anything other than God. Once I realized that (among other things), I knew I could no longer continue in the Catholic Church.

    Now when I’m anxious or worried, I pray to God. When I fall, I ask God for forgiveness. When I’m in need, I ask God. When I’m thankful, I thank God. When I’m joyful, I praise God.

    That’s my two cents. God bless. (Oh yeah, when I ask for blessings, I ask God.) ;-)

  76. Kurt,

    Once again, you rely on your own understanding instead of reading and obeying…concerning Deut. 4:15-16 you say, “I just don’t believe that pottery is a sin in this age, and Photography had not been invented,so the way FP is presenting the argument, ‘carved’ must not be taken literally for there are many ways to create an Idol, other ways back then and more innovative ways now. Earlier I wanted to move the conversation away from just carved images of representations merely because that is part of the larger issue laid out here in the initial images on this post which included catholic faithful praying to God in front of a photo of blessed John Paul II.” True believers have one intercessor, Christ Himself; not some sinful man who desires worship by allowing his followers to call him ‘holy father’, even though Christ commanded we call no one on earth our father {Matthew 23:9} ; allows others to bow to him, to kiss his ring.

    God doesn’t allow loopholes, when He states do not make a carved image in the form of male or female, He does not say ‘but if it’s a work of pottery, it’s okay’. You are sinning and excusing your sins away by your depraved way of thinking.

    These exchanges from all here to you have been uneventful, you have no desire for truth; you simply want to defend your dead religion and its idolatrous practices…enough already.

    It is past time to move on

  77. “These exchanges from all here to you have been uneventful, you have no desire for truth; you simply want to defend your dead religion and its idolatrous practices…enough already. It is past time to move on”

    I gotta disagree with you, lyn. You may have found them uneventful, but I think they have been very interesting; they show how the Catholic mindset responds to challenges. I haven’t really discussed the issue of the statues and the pictures with a Catholic, so I was curious about how one would respond. I have found this discussion very fruitful to observe (even though it does disturb me how much I agree with you on this).

    I have gained a lot of benefit from watching this unfold. I can’t believe that others haven’t as well.

  78. kurt said…”This has been a delightful distraction from my busy day, speaking with you on this site was been wonderful.”

    You know, something doesn’t quite ring true about that comment kurt, during your time on here we have;
    1. Challenged your religion, calling it false.
    2. Called you an idolater, (no idolater will enter heaven 1 Corinthians 6:9)
    3. Questioned your testimony accusing you of lying or mistaken.
    4. Denied you are a Christian, refusing to accept you as a brother.

    Although we are happy to have the opportunity to share truth with you, in all seriousness this could hardly be described as a “delightful distraction” kurt, unless you have some other motive for being here ?

    You also said ..”I don’t know much about your polish nun/miracle that you mention but my faith is not based on the validity of any such reported event.”

    Again, you failed to answer the question put to you which was, what your thoughts were regarding such claims, however, this is not my “polish nun event” kurt, I got this article from YOUR facebook page, where you posted it for your “polish friends” back in october..Now, why would you deny all knowledge of that?

    In response to my comment …“faith is a fruit of regeneration along with repentance, Now do you agree with that statement and if not, why not ??”

    You replied …”My reply at this point is:
    Can you show me in scripture where it says Faith is the fruit of regeneration?”

    Sure I can kurt, but why would Scripture all of a sudden interest you ?…we have pointed you to the source of truth (the Scriptures) constantly regarding the worship of idols, and you flat out reject it in favour of what the pope says.

    Again I have to agree with Lyn when she says ….”These exchanges from all here to you have been uneventful, you have no desire for truth; you simply want to defend your dead religion and its idolatrous practices…enough already.”

  79. The Word of God is a two edged sword. Never to come back void. To Kurt’s credit, he has been respectful and courteous throughout the discussion.
    I trust that all that has been witnessed will seep into the depths of your heart Kurt. Even if you are unaware of the seeds planted.
    He is bigger than any stronghold. If He can change me, He can change anyone.

  80. Hi Dale,

    I must be honest, I am reading fast, there is so much content here and so many people engaging me on the topic, and so little time in my day that I did not take time to actually look at the link you posted, so I did say I did not know about it, not to be dishonest, but out of haste. So yes, after reading your post again and looking at that link I do remember it and did find it intriguing at the time. In fact, as I went to bed praying for you last night I felt prompted to tell you that, and that I was sorry for not being more thoughtful. I have been a bit ill and was I was thinking about our dialogue and wondering if I hadn’t heard about it at one time. But it is true what I said that the validity of such events do not affect my belief in the eucharist.

    In regards to your response to my comment
    “This has been a delightful distraction from my busy day, speaking with you on this site was been wonderful.”

    You said
    You know, something doesn’t quite ring true about that comment kurt,

    I was wondering if you would call me out on that :)
    It could not be more true and is probably the most honest thing I have said to you.
    I love to talk about faith, and I love to talk about it with people whom I believe are my brothers and sisters in Christ. I love my protestant friends I have here locally in town. I learn sooooo much from them and deeply desire unity with them. And the fact that we disagree is too be understood in my opinion and I can’t really explain it more than that I have complete joy in my life in Christ. My simple rule in my life is to be troubled about nothing but the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, all that matters is that one be created anew. I know you have post that you

    1. Challenged my religion, calling it false.
    2. Called me an idolater, (no idolater will enter heaven 1 Corinthians 6:9)
    3. Questioned your testimony accusing me of lying or mistaken.
    4. Denied me as a Christian, refusing to accept me as a brother.

    But I believe you are following your conscience and being true to what you know and believe at this point in your life and I have a deep love for you and everyone on this site. I am moved by your sincerity and your love for God and for the time you have devoted to conversing with me. I do not think it a small thing and have deep respect for you. I believe everything the catholic church teaches and I love to dialogue with people such as yourself. It helps me to know what people think about us that are outside of my comfortable group of friends in my life. It is a joy to share the truth with you and to labor through these discussions.

    Peace in Christ,
    Kurt

  81. Kurt:

    In regard to your request and comment to me:

    “If I kneel before my bed with my bible open praying to God, am I worshiping the bible or the bed? would this be acceptable in your mind, or should I never kneel in front of a bible? If you could help me out on this and let me know what you think about this idea, it may clear up a few things for me. I do not find it to be tenable to consider every bow or every time on my knees in my life an act of Idolatry as you stated above.”

    Once again you’ve distorted what was said and repackaged it into strawman rhetoric. I never said, nor infered, that every time one bows or is on their knees is an act of Idolatry. And, no, I do not believe that kneeling before one’s bed in prayer to God (with a Bible) to be worshipping the bed or the Bible. But then, it’s not hard for any rational person to understand that. Nor should it matter to you what is or isn’t acceptable to me. Nor does it matter in regard to our eternal souls how Webster (or any other dictionary) defines “Idolatry”. All that matters is what God has said. And that’s the real issue here. I agree with others here that all honest attempts to help you understand what God has specifically said, often by bringing you back to what God has specifically said regarding this subject have, at least in the present, been unfruitful. But then, it’s not for us to change you, nor open your eyes, nor “make” you understand. Only God can do that. So I will pray for you. And just so there’s no misunderstanding, none of us hate you, Kurt. Nor do we by any means hate any Catholic. I have some long time Catholic friends, and we are on very good terms, (though we disagree on spiritual matters). On the contrary, we just wanted you to understand God’s Word, for the sake of your eternal soul. Because we care about you. Goodbye.

  82. Dale you also asked me
    “Sure I can kurt, but why would Scripture all of a sudden interest you ?…we have pointed you to the source of truth (the Scriptures) constantly regarding the worship of idols, and you flat out reject it in favour of what the pope says.”

    In regards to the pope statement, are you referring to the quote from Gregory? I am just trying to think what prompted you to throw out the pope statement.

    Why did I ask you about where you found it in scripture? It is because I am trying to not make any assumptions about who you are and what you do or do not believe in hopes to have the most honest dialogue possible. I seem to be one of the Few Roman catholics posting here, and yet folks here are probably from various denominations I just want to find out more about who you are and how you approach scripture before going further.

    Additionally, As sueliz stated it is difficult to dialogue with you because I don’t believe in Solo Scriptura, so as a catholic I can’t give you evidence that would be contrary to your beliefs from a catholic perspective of Scripture and Tradition together. So the goal would be to have as healthy of a dialogue as possible regarding what we both believe to be without Error, Scripture. We both believe it to be without error, and therefore going to that common source in regards to the question you threw out seems logical. I believe you are setting a stage of some sorts and I would like to have your biblical sources at hand to review. It would seem the courteous thing to do.

    You rejected my statement, and I showed you in scripture where it seemed self evident to me of the truth of that statement so I am assuming that may have helped us be more unified in regards to what I was referring to with the statement
    we are justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation

    I honestly think in light of the biblical sources I shared from Romans, it was a rather benign statement that I was surprised you disagreed with.

    since you did, and offered a counter statement without a biblical source, I was curious as to the source so I could compare it to Romans.

    In Christ,
    Kurt
    __________________________________________________
    Lyn,

    You said,
    Once again, you rely on your own understanding instead of reading and obeying
    and

    These exchanges from all here to you have been uneventful, you have no desire for truth; you simply want to defend your dead religion and its idolatrous practices…enough already.

    The exchanges with you personally have been uneventful, I agree. You stated before that I rely on my own understanding, and then when I respond to you with who I am as a person and what I truly believe, you do not engage me but rather say the same thing and seem to attack me.

    My comment to you before was that

    “And since I know that I am the least of all and being untaught and unstable I need someone, as Peter dictates, to help me understand the difficult passages.”

    Our conversation would be eventful if you actually dialogued with me. I am giving you the opportunity here to drive the conversation forward. In regards specifically to your posts I have been trying to share with you that I am not convinced that you have the proper understanding of scripture. I see that you believe with a passion the conclusions you have come to with regards to certain passages, but as a catholic, how do I know for sure that they are not a heresy? As a catholic I am giving you the opportunity to tell all of us how you know for sure that you are right in regards to what you believe about difficult passages. I assert that it is not that you are more learned than I (although that might be true), but I assert that you follow a different tradition than I do and am concerned that you are following the wind of a new doctrine that is not true such as warned about spoken in

    Ephesians 4:14
    As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine

    In a desire for ecumenism and understanding between the two of us I was hoping you to see my plight and see how similar we are. You want to point out the extreme differences and I am focusing on something that will help bridge the gap that we each approach scripture through lenses of tradition, history, commentators, teachers and more. It is not as simple as just throw away my idols and believe God’s word when I do believe God’s word and Don’t have any Idols.

    My apologies that I have frustrated you, I was enjoying the opportunity to work through differences and deepen our understanding of each others faith. But I do understand if you want to stop engaging me at this point.

    Peace in christ,
    Kurt
    _________________________________________________

    David,

    thank you so much for being one of the few people to actually respond and engage me where I am and give me feedback about my specific way of thinking. It means a lot to me and truly kind of you. (And I never considered that anyone here might hate me, but thank you for saying it and if it matters I don’t hate anyone here either, in fact, it is quite the opposite).

    You said Goodbye in somewhat of a final way and if you don’t want to engage me further I completely understand, but I do hope you do, and if you don’t I hope someone else will as I feel your post is the first one that actually gets me excited that someone might understand my heart and my line of thinking and might be able to develop the dialogue further,

    You said,
    :And, no, I do not believe that kneeling before one’s bed in prayer to God (with a Bible) to be worshipping the bed or the Bible. But then, it’s not hard for any rational person to understand that. Nor should it matter to you what is or isn’t acceptable to me. ”
    Unity in Christ does matter to me immensely David. I take John 17 very seriously

    22 The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

    Unity among Christians has the power to Evangelize the world in a special and unique way, so much so that Jesus prays for our unity and to that end it is of the utmost importance to me what you believe and what matters.

    Now I know you think my point is a strawman as you put it but please humor me for a post or two more as I continue to work through this with you.

    So if you don’t believe the bed or the bible is being worshipped, even though you are bowing and/or kneeling before it in prayer. Imagine for a moment me doing that, as a catholic, in my bedroom with my bible, and as a bookmark in my bible I have a family photo of my wife, me and the children. Now remaining in that same posture, and looking at that photo, I pray and intercede for them asking God to bless them. Is this Idol worship?

    I honestly was not trying to be disrespectful when I pulled the Merriam Webster definition. I just find that when talking about these terms two people from two denominations can hold different meanings of the same term.

    I thought you were defining Idolatry with what was contained in your parantheses
    Idolatry (bowing/kneeling in reverence before an image)

    This is the cause of my question about the photo book mark. Can we both agree that this moment I just described above is not Idol worship? (this is not a trick question)!

    I would be curious to know anyone’s thoughts here, Lyn? Dale? Sueliz? Jay? fourpointer?

    and Jay I do understand your concerns and why you left, I wrestled with many of the same things you shared but I did not leave. I am not familiar with your song/chant that you posted nor where it came from – And no Dale, it is not on my face book page :). I did do a quick search on it and could not find much about the origin of the Marian form of this chant. I do believe Catholics can get carried away, and we are not exempt from certain sins of extremes.
    The church does say “lex orandi lex credendi”, but I would not want to take up a dialogue about a prayer I am unfamiliar with and would prefer to stick to the topic of this particular thread out of respect for the site and the moderators here. I would be happy to engage you about the topic on a separate thread or by e-mail. My e-mail is kfilla@gmail.com. I am not sure if the moderators will allow me to post that but If they do feel free to e-mail me and I will gladly respond without detracting from the integrity of this site.

    Peace in Christ,
    Kurt

  83. So, Kurt, is that what you are doing when you kneel before an image of a saint to pray? Praying FOR the saint? That image is only serving as a reminder to pray for that dead person? If not, your analogy of a bookmark is rather flawed….

    Do you ever ask a saint (or Mary) to intercede for you or do anything for you? Ever? Do you ever address any words to Mary or a saint? Ever?

    Do you ever say this:
    “Hail Mary, full of grace. Our Lord is with thee.
    Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
    Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
    Amen.”

    Does your church >encourage< people to say those (or very similar) words while kneeling in front of an image of Mary?

    If the answer is that yes, you do address words to Mary or a saint, or ask them to do anything for you, then we can just discard this entire facade that the images are only reminders to pray to God. You pray to Mary and the saints, asking them to intercede for you, while kneeling in front of images of them. Your tradition calls it veneration, but what does God say?

    Ultimately, the whole thing comes down to your "second authority." You reject sola Scriptura. Your God doesn't love you enough to talk to you directly. He has to talk to you through a priest or a church tradition so that you can understand His words — you can't understand them well enough on your own. Your God talks about marriage as an illustration of His love for you (Eph. 5), but your God's view of marriage doesn't actually include direct communication in love.

    Do you talk to your wife through a priest, Kurt? Do you want her to listen to what you say and ask you to make it clear if she doesn't understand something, or have you hired an interpreter to talk to her for you? That's the whole issue with Roman Catholicism, and everything else flows out of that. Your God doesn't love you enough to talk to you, so other people get involved in telling you what He says, with all kinds of problems coming out of it. The whole edifice is built on a failure to really accept God's love. That's why you need other intercessors besides Christ.

  84. Jon,

    I assume you saw my post and read my question(s), but rather than answering my question first and then engaging me on additional topics you threw out quite a few new topics and ideas of which seem to be 17 steps ahead of where I am.

    I would be happy to answer one or more of your questions if you first honor me and respond to one of the questions I posed,

    The one question I would like answered the most is this one I posted just recently.

    “So if you don’t believe the bed or the bible is being worshipped, even though you are bowing and/or kneeling before it in prayer. Imagine for a moment me doing that, as a catholic, in my bedroom with my bible, and as a bookmark in my bible I have a family photo of my wife, me and the children. Now remaining in that same posture, and looking at that photo, I pray and intercede for them asking God to bless them. Is this Idol worship?”

    Please take a moment and respond yes or no and I would be happy to engage you further. I understand if you may not want to do that though and would prefer to go do down a different line of questioning but before we do that I would like to know if we have the same perspective on the scenario above. I do think that will help me. I wish you all the best, peace in Christ,

    I am looking forward to your reply and/or a reply from sue, lyn, david, dale, fourpointer, glen, jay, Caudillo23, 072591 or anyone else here.
    Peace in Christ,
    Kurt

    (and sueliz, thank you for your kind words, you did not have to say that and I too feel the same way in regards to you, you have been very kind to me, wishing me the best and encouraging me to pursue the truth. I know in your heart that you desire is for me to be a lover of truth and your respect and encouragement means a lot. Have a blessed Sunday.)

    Kurt

  85. Kurt, no, it is not idol worship to pray for your family if you see a picture of them. And as I’ve said, that’s an irrelevance if you are speaking to Mary when you kneel or bow before an image of her. Which your church encourages you to do, and you know it does, so you are merely blowing smoke. And now I have answered your question, but you will just use more misdirection, because you don’t want to face the truth.

  86. Dear Kurt,
    This is a little off subject, but you dissed it the times i mentioned it. That being that the RCC is calling for world govt., world bank and global taxes. This all ties in with the one world govt. and one world religion that is not far away. There is no denying the church’s syncing with the United Nations and in fact, they said that the UN is the world body needed to head up the world govt. I can back all of this with articles and research and from catholic sources.
    You mentioned this to David:
    Unity among Christians has the power to Evangelize the world in a special and unique way, so much so that Jesus prays for our unity and to that end it is of the utmost importance to me what you believe and what matters.
    My comment:
    You can not unify under two different gospels. The Gospel of Rome and the Gospel of the Bible are completely different. I can not earn my way to heaven. And I can’t lose salvation by eating meat at Lent on Friday or missing a ‘holy day of obligation’ but “you can.” You are in a state of mortal sin for eating a hamburger on Friday during lent because the “holy father” says so.The RCC took on the job of the pharisees, They also burnt believers at the stake, locked Jews behind a ghetto wall for 300 years and to this day calls for a Palestinian state, supports the PLO and calls Muslims ‘brother.” The Vatican has also stated space aliens are brothers, and that they should be baptized if found:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/sep/17/pope-astronomer-baptise-aliens
    These aliens are demons by the way. And one day, when ‘disclosure’ happens, the RCC will say to accept them as brother. Scary indeed. If you think this is crazy, it’s not. Just this year, there was a Vatican conference on ET’s. I can supply soundbites from priests on news channels saying that the church may have to change their theology when ET intelligent life is found.
    There is too much to tell here. The bottom line is, I am afraid the RCC has taken you for a ride. I really pray His light will brake through this darkness. I am sure you are a good person and moral at that. But Gospel you know is much different that the one I have have come to understand.And I will not and can not be unified with a church not adhering to the true Gospel. I will not “submit my full will and intellect to the Roman pontiff” as Rome demands. I pray the same for you

    ‘This loyal submission of the will and intellect must be given, in a special way, to the authentic authority of the Roman Pontiff, even when he does not speak ex cathedra, in such wise, indeed, that his supreme teaching authority be acknowledged with respect, and sincere assent be given to decisions made by him.’

    The substance of the above doctrine from Vatican II is repeated in the Code of Canon Law, Canons 749752.
    In Jesus,
    Sue

  87. Nothing like juxtaposing 2 pictures to give us the true meaning of the saying “a picture is worth a 1000 words”
    If people can’t see the truth when it’s right there staring at their face, then nothing will –Except GOD in his mercy and grace

  88. Sueliz,

    Yes there have always been and always will be sinful men with sinful agendas who claim to be catholic. I truly wonder what Church you claim to be a part of that called eating meat on a Friday in Lent a mortal Sin??? But, I feel you know better Sueliz…. as this is a quite an obvious strawman, especially if you used to be catholic.
    “A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position.”

    I looked up the term after David used the term in referring to me, Speaking of Strawman…

    David, I have reflected a great deal about your comment,
    “Once again you’ve distorted what was said and repackaged it into strawman rhetoric.”

    I really never meant to do that at all. This whole time I have been trying to journey through my position with all of you one step at a time, (and answer other questions/topics respectfully as they come up) and when I saw what I thought was a definition of idolatry that you included in your paranthesis and included that in reply it was merely to continue my dialogue with all of you and to try to be in step with you. I do want to apologize if it appeared to be anything but. To be honest I was asked to define idol worship previously and no one commented when I did so when you gave what I perceived as a definition of Idolatry I was just trying to keep my focus on what was in my heart as it related to how people here were defining things rather than using my own or MW. I want to thank you again for responding to me directly in what I was trying to inquire about!

    With all sincerity (no strawmen here) – is the reason you have a problem with Mary because she is Dead? This is why I ask. I feel like you have given a really reasonable reply here that has been helpful in regards to my scenario: that is, I am kneeling in front of my bed with a bible praying and I have a family photo. But imagine Now one of my family members as passed away. I still bow my head in prayer to God, I read the psalms, I read the Gospels, I meditate, I get ready to close the bible, still kneeling, look at my family (with one who recently passed away) and thank God for all of them. Is that Idolatry?

    It is important for me to know you answer, to interpret everything that has been said to me here and process it. I need to know if praying to God in front of a photo of people both living and dead can be ever be permissable under certain circumstance or conditions – maybe if the disposition of someones heart was right with God? Could a protestant who has been saved in your church do this without sinning? I would love for someone to carry one with me here and reply.

    I hope soon that someone here realizes that I am not here merely to defend my idol worshiping faith, but I am here to talk, understand, and love – to be a witness and to engage in a healthy dialogue about my faith and to better understand yours.

    To that end I want to respond to Jon when you said,
    “And now I have answered your question, but you will just use more misdirection, because you don’t want to face the truth.”

    Jon, I clicked on your link after church this Sunday, read about you and your wife and 6 children, I read about your love for God and why you are a pastor. I read that you were a marathon runner that your desire to communicate God’s word. I prayed for you and asked the Lord to bless you and your ministry and to fill you and your family with his Grace. But I am struck with what seems like such severe judgment about my heart. How can you know in such a short time, without ever meeting me that I don’t want to face the truth? How do you know that I am using and will continue to use “misdirection” in my journey on seeking truth? You appear to be a man of faith who has given up everything to serve, to shephard, to preach and to bring the Good news of Christ to all people and yet in one quick sentence you swipe me away with such quick (and to my heart and soul) severe judgment about my heart and my intentions. Why did you do that Jon? maybe I misunderstood you.. I hope, as I would like to dialogue with you and not be swept away so quickly. Is your ministry and your christian witness not able to reach me? Do you already have doubts that you reach me? Why? is it not possible that you and I could ever be brothers in the future, even if you believe we are not now at this moment? this really struck me severely and the reason it took me so long to reply this time as I don’t know what it means for me if people here have already made up their minds about my heart and my desire for truth. I want everyone to know here with whom I have been speaking, I have not done that to any of you, and I promise with all my heart to do my best not to in the future. If I have offending anyone here up to this point, by appearing to make assumptions about them. My sincere apologies.

    Peace in Christ.
    Kurt

  89. Dear Kurt.

    Grace and peace to you.
    I did not present a straw man. I just checked with Catholic Answers and it is indeed a mortal sin to eat meat on Friday.
    I say these things because I care! I especially do not want you to be dragged into world religion and I am speaking truth to you about that reality. Saying there are sinful people is not enough. You need to know what’s going on.

    http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2004/04/meat_on_lenten_.html

  90. Hi, Kurt. Yes, I was pretty direct — more so than usual.

    Very simply, you dodged the issue. Maybe you didn’t mean to, and I judged you harshly.

    1. You asked if praying for your family when you see their picture is idolatry, and used that as an analogy of what you do in front of images of saints and of Mary..
    2. I answered it indirectly by asking a series of questions as to whether that analogy was relevant at all. The obvious answer to those questions was that it wasn’t relevant.
    3. You blew it off with “you haven’t answered my question.”
    4. That appears to me to be dodging the issue and using misdirection. It does not sound like a desire for truth. It sounds like someone who is not trying to explore truth but trying to persuade people that a form of worship which is contrary to Scripture is acceptable to God. The Bible calls that kind of person a “false teacher.”

    I don’t see that we are supposed to dialogue with a false teacher, particularly. Romans 16:17 says we are to give them a wide berth. If you are not a false teacher, you are doing a fine impression of one, and I respectfully suggest you stop doing so.

    I thank you for the kind personal words, but here’s the thing, Kurt. Even that shows a great gulf between us. In all probability, if I had a chance to know you well, I could find many good things to say about you. You are made in the image of God, and so you will have many excellent characteristics for anyone who is willing to look for them. I am sure we could have a mutual admiration society on a personal level if we pursued it.

    But to me, that is largely irrelevant, because we are talking about Biblical truth in this discussion. Personal respect / regard, for me, has no place in this kind of discussion. The only thing that matters is what the Bible says, and whether certain worship practices are consistent with its teaching.

  91. Sueliz,
    catholicanswer.com does not teach that, and even if it did that site is not the teaching authority of the Church. You continually show why you left the Church with your misunderstandings and misrepresentations (first the POWERS inside the Statues and now these gross exaggerations). The practice you mentioned was encouraged by Pope Paul IV and you can look up PAENITEMINI for the official teaching on it. No where in that apostolic constitution does it say it is a mortal sin – I encourage you to post the link to it so I can understand you better.
    Peace,
    Kurt
    (sorry if some of this is repeat, I seem to have lost the page while posting)

    ————-

    Jon, to be rather blunt with you, I have been working through things here slowly and you jumped in the middle of it with a slew of questions that are much farther ahead of me than where I am in my thought process. I was not dodging your questions, in fact with the tone of your e-mail I am surprised you are interacting with me at all or that you wanted a response. I was just continuing my dialogue for mutual edification of all of us to figure out where exactly I go wrong. To be honest, I did not think you really wanted me to engage you with the force of the blow of your first post. I understand you have a lot of assumptions about me because I call myself catholic but you do not know me or my heart or can you possibly know if I want to face truth or not. I know that Ephesians has commanded us to be immitators of God,

    Ephesians 5:1
    Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children.

    Is your posting, tone and words here an imitation of your God or fruit of your traditions’ doctrines?

    I want to be clear, I am a guest here and I am on the defensive side of the discussion. Slapping me down further into a dark hole where I can not see anything and then stomping on the mud and dirt above me so I can’t breath, is not going to help me see the light you call day. If you truly want to be a witness to your truth, then engage me in this dialogue and meet me where I am and take the time to engage me or you can simply attack my beliefs, make judgments about my heart and step in and then right back out of the dialogue. Most everyone else has seemed to have given up on me so I would understand. (But yes either way some mutual admiration would be great).
    I know you said Respect doesn’t matter here but what does matter is Gods word. Well, what does the word say about the role of respect for one another. I know in marriage between a believer and unbeliever it is huge

    Peter 3: 1-3
    3 Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they see your (respectful and pure conduct.

    I know we are not married, I but believe the role of respect between a believer (you) and a non believer (me, as some would claim) would be applicable here. Additionally

    1 Peter 2:17-19
    17 Show proper respect to everyone. Love the community of believers. Have respect for God. Honor the king.

    With that said, and with a deep desire for respect and unity for God Alone in Christ.
    I would like to answer the first few questions of your original post and then ask you a couple of more.

    (you said)So, Kurt, is that what you are doing when you kneel before an image of a saint to pray?
    (my reply)
    I am giving praise and thanks to God the father through our Lord Jesus Christ,

    (you said)Praying FOR the saint?
    (my reply)I do not pray for a saint, I am unfamiliar with that practice

    (you said)That image is only serving as a reminder to pray for that dead person?
    (my reply)If I bow my head and pray to God the Father, giving him thanks and praise for all of his creation I believe I am right with God, and it does not matter if that person is Dead for Death has no power over those in Christ, Yes, my family both alive and dead are reminders to me to give praise and glory to God the Father through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    If not, your analogy of a bookmark is rather flawed….
    (my reply)I don’t follow here …. I am really not tracking here with you.

    So now my questions to you.

    Is it because Mary is Dead that I can’t bow my head and give thanks to God in front of her?
    Can I bow my head and give thanks to God for my Family in front of a photo of both those living and dead?
    Can I protestant do that?
    (I am thinking we Catholics can’t because we are idolators but maybe you can if your heart is right)

    So in closing, and to move this dialogue further faster, Many here have said things repeatedly like “God is very clear–we are not to make any image in order to bow down to it.” Citing scripture about not making Carved images.

    I am trying to show that it is not the Making of Carved images that is bad, or otherwise Logically, Photography would be a sin, nor is it the Bowing before them that is bad or you could not do that in front of a bible with a picture of your family (including one that passed away).
    I am trying to show that most everyone here is not condemning these two independent issues,
    Carving
    or
    Bowing
    Nor even them together really,
    Carving & bowing,

    But rather the CONDITION of the HEART of the person in front any image of any kind in a posture that appears to be reverent.

    If most everyone agrees with me, I am happy to move on to the deeper issue at hand that concerns you – that of Worshiping idols and I would love understand how it is that I do that when I believe I only worship Jesus.

    And Sue,
    Catholic Answers does not teach it is a mortal sin to eat meat on Friday, and even if it did Catholic answers is not the teaching authority of the Church nor the written word of God. You continually show why you left the Church with your constant misunderstandings and misrepresentations (first the POWERS inside the Statues and now these gross exaggerations). The practice you mentioned was encouraged by Pope Paul IV and you can look up PAENITEMINI for the official teaching on it and no where in that apostolic constitution does it say it is a mortal sin and I could care less what some random catholic website says and encourage you to post the link to it so I can understand you better. By the way, since you are an ex catholic can you give the 3 criteria that must be present for someone to be living in mortal sin?

    Peace in Christ
    Kurt

  92. Kurt, we’re all guests here. You’ve probably posted on this site more than I have.

    You are perhaps misunderstanding my point about respect. The point is that whether I like you or not, whether I think highly of you on a personal level or not, I cannot let that influence me when you advocate error. Truth is what matters in these discussions.

    Now, as to your bookmark analogy, it fails horribly. You say that looking at a picture of your family, and using that as a reminder to pray for them, is not idolatry. I agree.

    But when you look at an image of a saint, you are not using that as a reminder to pray for them. When you kneel before an image of Mary, you are not using her image as a reminder to pray for her. Therefore, your bookmark analogy does nothing for your position, because you are doing something very different when you kneel before her.

  93. Dear Kurt,
    I already sent you this link. Obviously you didn’t read it:
    The time of Lent preserves its penitential character. The days of penitence to be observed under obligation through-out the Church are all Fridays and Ash Wednesday, that is to say the first days of “Grande Quaresima” (Great Lent), according to the diversity of the rite. Their substantial observance binds gravely [Norm II §1, emphasis added].

    That the keeping of abstinence (and fast on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday) is part of the substantial observance of these days is evident from the fact that the second half of Norm II names this as the chief requirement of observing these days:

    Apart from the faculties referred to in VI and VIII regarding the manner of fulfilling the precept of penitence on such days, abstinence is to be observed on every Friday which does not fall on a day of obligation, while abstinence and fast are to be observed on Ash Wednesday or, according to local practice, on the first day of ‘Great Lent’ and on Good Friday [Norm II §2, emphasis added].

    The faculties mentioned “regarding the manner of fulfilling the precept of penitence on such days” have to do with the ability of pastors to dispense the faithful from the obligation of abstinence and fast or commuting it to something else. If such dispensation or commutation is not obtained then “the manner of fulfilling the precept” is abstinence.

    Thus one must substantially observe the law of abstinence on such days, and the obligation to do so is a grave one, meaning that it satisfies the condition of grave matter required for mortal sin. If one knowingly and deliberately fails in this obligation then one has committed mortal sin.

    As to the reason for this, the Code of Canon Law notes that:

    The divine law binds all the Christian faithful to do penance each in his or her own way. In order for all to be united among themselves by some common observance of penance, however, penitential days are prescribed on which the Christian faithful devote themselves in a special way to prayer, perform works of piety and charity, and deny themselves by fulfilling their own obligations more faithfully and especially by observing fast and abstinence, according to the norm of the following canons [Can. 1249, emphasis added].
    (end)

    Every Catholic and their Aunt Betsy knows if you eat meat on Friday willingly during lent you are in mortal sin. Please don’t assume I am clueless. I studied under Scott Hahn at Franciscan University and I know what the church teaches. I don’t need a catechisis lesson or need to list the mortal sin requirements.

    You also falsely claim i left the church because of my misunderstanding of statues. I shared my personal experience to show the weakness of human nature and the need to cling to the physical. This is especially true of those unregenerate by the Holy Spirit.

    I left the RCC BECAUSE THE TRUE GOSPEL was made known to me. This is NOT the same gospel the RCC teaches no matter how many times you say it is. But you need eyes to see and ears to hear. As long as you ‘submit your will and intellect to the Roman Pontiff (dogma), you will never be able to see. There is no unity between a false and true gospel. None.

    I’m glad you mentioned the rule changes in 1966. Think of all the kids who ate a hotdog at the ball park on a Friday night(since no-meat of Friday was mandatory every Friday and not just Lent)and never confessed it. I guess they’re in hell, huh? This is insanity. At least admit it.
    You can go to Red Lobster on Lent and have a big Lobster or pig out at the parish all-you-can eat Fish Fry, stay “within the rule” and be A-ok. This is NOT what being a follower of Jesus is all about and sadly it is for millions of Catholics trapped in the system, not born again, and following the rules till death, never knowing the Messiah.

    It is my prayer for you that you can open your heart to the scriptures and the true gospel where you will find true freedom in Christ and be liberated from years of paptist propaganda.The Word pierces every man made dogma.

    Peace,
    Sue

  94. Sue, We can just agree to disagree, you sent me a link to Johnny be good’s opinion and I thought you went to catholic answers and was looking for the link there – I see he is an apologist for the site though. My point is that Eating meat on good friday and Mortal sin are two distinct teachings that you are putting together to easily throw a stone at. Sure I agree it should be taken seriously but most catholics believe that no one should be scrupulous in this regard; failure to observe individual days of penance is not considered serious. Moral theologians remind us that some people are excused from fasting and/or abstinence because of sickness or other reasons.

    Yes it qualifies for 1 part of a mortal sin, that it be serious. But to eat meat on good friday isn’t automatically a mortal sin without satisfying the other 2 requirements. Happy Ash Wednesday, I will offer up prayers for you today as I enter into our lenten time of sacrifices and fasting.
    Peace in Christ.
    Kurt

    ————-

    Jon,
    I was not equating the concept of respect with whether or not you like me. You don’t know me well enough to be able to like me I would assume. I was merely talking about the biblical principles of respecting the dignity of each person in order to be an effective evangelist and to promote the gospel, I thought it may help you as a pastor and evangelist to reflect on that.

    How can I be drawn to the truth within you if you are stomping on my heart? It is one thing to rant on about a doctrine – go for it, but when you criticize me as one who will continue to misdirect and who is a person that does not want to face the truth, that seems to cross a line of basic respect among people that as we evangelize the world we should take seriously. But maybe this is what God thinks about me too if you are to be imitating him, and if so, why should I be drawn to this God that causes you to treat me that way?

    Jon, lastly, my conversation at this point about my photo is not an analogy (maybe at first). but I came into this website with and basic understanding that we were brothers and sisters in Christ and could have a healthy dialogue. I realize that not to be the case and have been bombarded by much firm criticism that seemed to be directed at both me personally and the doctrines of Rome, and at this stage I am just trying to figure out what y’all think is right and wrong specifically about us regarding praying before an image.

    I am happy to hear that having photo’s of loved ones, even dead ones, and bowing in prayer to God in front of them is not a sin. as I entered this site, I thought I was hearing from folks that it was, but it could have been knee jerk reactions to the shock I was absorbing about how strong peoples thoughts and emotions were about Rome and Me.

    You have been most helpful to me to know that when someone does the action I described above, that we both agree it is not sinful.

    So now, what is the sinful part? And please, be gentle with me and if you could don’t bombard me with a ton of questions, help me slowly if you don’t mind.

    Peace in Christ,
    Kurt

    (Now,please let me know if anything in this e-mail appears to be “dodging”, or misdirecting, I am happy to be corrected by you in this regard as I still believe you are my brother in Christ even if that feeling is not reciprocated.)

  95. Kurt, four questions. Simple questions.
    1. Do you pray to Mary?
    2. Does your church encourage you to do so?
    3. Do you pray to Mary while bowing before an image of her?
    4. Does your church encourage you to do so?

  96. I pray this for myself too. It is not only wood and stone that can become an idol …anything that is put above God in your life and my life can become an idol.

    ——————-

    Dear Kurt

    I am not putting two things together to throw stones. I am merely expressing a church teaching has been taught for hundreds of years.

    Your tone towards me is different and this is most likely because you know I am an ex Catholic.
    I have appreciated your kindness in speech and the respectful dialogue. I hope you don’t feel bashed on this site. As It was expressed by other readers it is the theology debated not the judgment of ones heart.
    When discussing the gospel there is always a dividing line where no compromise is possible…
    and perhaps this what you are feeling.
    May the gospel ring true in your heart and may every idol be cast down and out of your life.

  97. Interesting reading these comments, I would like to make these observations :

    Kurt, you need to be more understanding towards those you profess to “love with all your heart and desire unity with” instead of assuming the reaction you are recieving on here is due to unloving hypocritical Christians who are judging you unfairly and are not Christ – like, understand this Kurt, the RCC used to kill Christians not too long ago, now what they are doing is trying to blur the lines between us and unite both religions, therefore when you comment here that all you desire is unity and defend idolatry, that gives a certain impression to Christians that have heard those things from many in the RCC who perhaps are not as sincere as yourself, in other words Kurt, you are not the norm, if you are a Christian, a brother in Christ, (and that will be made clear through time) you are certainly not typical of catholics everyone of us comes in contact with.

    I hope that makes sense (typed in the early hours here in the UK)

    dale

  98. Well said Dale. Interestingly enough Kurt has not called me his sister and maybe it’s because I am an exCatholic… In which according to the RCC I am anathema. But not you or Jon or the others since they were not Catholics. The RCC fawns over the ” separated brethren” but the ex-Catholics not so much.

  99. Sueliz, I so believe you to be my sister, I just tried to stay away from saying such things as not to offend people, you included. My tone with you is more shock than anything. I grew up catholic, 12 years of catholic school +2 post high school and 10 years in ministry at my church and just never heard anyone ever tell me they thought eating meat was a mortal sin. sorry about my tone, again I am just really having a hard time to think we grew in the same church. You do make some good points about it so I will just back off, it is a serious request, but the disposition of the person who would eat meat has to be considered. Please forgive my tone with you I meant no harm.

    Now, seriously, ex catholics are very very dear to me but wasn’t you you said “There is no unity between a false and true gospel. None.”. I did not want to call you sister as to avoid further provacation.

    I hope that clears the air here in this regard.
    peace sister :)!

    ———————–

    Jon,
    Kurt, four questions. Simple questions.
    1. Do you pray to Mary?
    2. Does your church encourage you to do so?
    3. Do you pray to Mary while bowing before an image of her?
    4. Does your church encourage you to do so?

    1. I have the words of scripture memorized
    Luke 1:28
    28 And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed be thou among women.
    & Luke 42
    42 and cried with a great voice, and said, Blessed be thou among women, and blessed be the fruit of thy womb.
    and yes, I repeat them often

    2.) while repeating them the church encourages us to meditate on the Life of christ and His singular work of salvation in the world, things like the the Crucifixion, incarnation, pentecost etc they are called the mysteries of our faith.
    3.) sometimes, I bow my head when I recite these words of scripture and sometimes there are images, paintings and statues of mary nearby.
    4.) The church does not call praying to God with the intercession of the saints a sin and yes permits this.

    In short, we read in the gospel
    Luke 15:7

    7 I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

    Knowing that those in heaven are aware of our repentance and that death can not separate us from the Love we have in Christ,

    37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    We believe that when we are Saved by Faith in Christ Jesus, Death has no power over us and therefore to be in loving unity with those who have gone before us “the cloud of witnesses” in Hebrews 1, and to be together in prayer with them to our creator, our savior our one mediator is not idolatry. It is the same as you asking your wife to pray with you before bed and for you together to bow your heads in front of each other and intercede for your needs.

    this is how I live my life, with christ as the center, He is my savior and I worship no other image are carving. All for Jesus my Lord and my King. I give him my life with all my heart and soul and all that is within me and praise him for saving me through the power of his resurrection.

    Peace,
    Kurt

  100. Kurt.

    Shalom.

    I honestly don’t understand how you can be a catholic and say you never heard of anyone talk of mortal sin and eating meat. Are you American?? Please check the CCC and re-read the link from Jim Atkins , RCC apologist.

  101. More misdirection, Kurt, with such a simple question. You didn’t give the whole prayer, did you?

    “Hail Mary, full of grace. Our Lord is with thee.
    Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
    Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
    Amen.”

    That’s the prayer your church tells you to pray to Mary. Yes, it quotes Scripture in those first two lines (though horribly out of context, to put them in a prayer to her). The third line ends all doubt that this is prayer to Mary, and not to God. But you wouldn’t admit that, would you? A simple question couldn’t get a simple answer.

    That’s what you teach Roman Catholics to do, to pray to Mary, but you won’t come out and admit it here. You take the first two sentences and say all you are doing is reciting Scripture.

    The fact that you repeat a prayer to Mary, and that you won’t honestly say so, but instead describe it as repeating Scripture and meditating on the work of Christ, tells us all we need to know. You are not just a deceived believer in Roman Catholicism, you are willingly deceptive in the way you describe it. I often quote Scriptures in my prayers, but I don’t claim that I am just quoting Scripture, and I don’t claim that I am speaking to the Lord if I’m talking to someone else.

    I have no reason to believe that you are who you portray yourself to be — if you won’t be straightforward about you prayers, you may not be forthright about anything else. You might be who you claim to be, or you might be a Jesuit priest (the Jesuits have always been advocates of these kinds of tactics). I couldn’t possibly know, but I can judge, based on your comments on this thread, that Romans 16:17 applies. I’ll not engage with you again.

    Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

  102. Jon,
    I understand if you want to give up on me, I believe that may be a reflection of your theology as you described it using scripture. We have been divided for hundreds of years it will not take 4 exchanges on a blog to correct that, but I want you to know I have the utmost respect for you, I truly love you in Christ, all of you here and I am thankful for the time you have given me. It has been a blessing I can not even begin to describe.

    I wanted to lay the ground work that the first part of the prayer was purely from scripture and the the church encourages us to meditate on the life of christ as we pray these prayers. In regards to the second part of the pray that you would like me to address, I will leave you with this final image since it is clear you will abandon me here.

    There is a 10 year old girl who lost her father to cancer, She is a protestant and at funeral grave site she turns to her mom and says,

    “Mommy, will you pray with me to have Jesus help me. I don’t know how we are going to make it without Daddy, please pray with me Mom!”

    the mother takes her hand and says, “yes love, let’s pray together, for where 2 or more are gathered in his name he is there” And quietly that pray hand in hand. the the young girl turns away from her mother and she kneels before the coffin and with tears in her eyes she lays a rose on the coffin and says,

    “Daddy, I love you so much, I miss you. Please tell Jesus I love him too and now that you are so close to him please ask jesus to help me to carry on without you and for the grace of faith to be the kind of Daughter you always wanted me to be so that when I die will be with you in heaven,
    I miss you Daddy, I love you…..”

    Is this young girl “praying” to her Dad? No?
    In regards to misdirection I leave you with this scripture verse

    1 Corinthians 3:2
    I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.

    Peace in Christ,
    Kurt

  103. Hello, Kurt. I’ll answer this once, because of this: someone sent me an email with enough information so that I’m relatively sure that you are who you say you are. I am glad for that, at least.

    As to your story, God is very, very compassionate to the grieving, but any “church” that teaches children to speak thus to someone who has died is in grave error.

    As to the I Corinthians quote, this is absurd since I already cited the words of the prayer and was asking you about them. I’ll refer you instead to II Corinthians 4, where Paul says he has renounced the hidden things of dishonesty. What else of Roman Catholic teaching are you hiding from us, or misrepresenting because we aren’t ready for it?

    May the Lord give you repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.

  104. Here’s some hidden truths from Catholicism:
    Mystical union with “Jesus” through contemplative prayer.
    Mary as mediatrix of all graces and coredeemer.
    Consecration to Jesus THROUGH Mary.
    “Jesus” contained body blood soul and divinity in communion bread.

    Those are just a few.

  105. Well, interesting days. I just got your message, Kurt (and read it all). I understand you better, and can see how little you understand me, or Biblical Christianity (as contrasted to traditional Christianity). I’ll give you a response, perhaps in part here if I think it is publicly profitable, perhaps privately if not, (a public response wouldn’t deal with private matters, obviously).

  106. We’ve seen here the common answer the Catholic gives for praying to saints is to merely ask them to intercede for us to God. And the reasoning they give for that comes from their doctrine of “The Communion of Saints” (which term they take from the Apostle’s Creed) for which the Catholic Encyclopedia has a protracted definiton, but in essence can be reasonably summerized to say that all the “faithful” (those of the “Christian” faith not condemned by the Catholic Church), whether living or dead (in heaven or purgatory), are all still part of the mystical body of Christ. Thomas Aquinas further includes the angels in “the faithful” as well. Thus (according to Catholic belief), saints, angels, even our own dearly departed relatives, can be “invoked” or “petitioned” in prayer to intercede with us to God, either on our behalf, or on the behalf of others in need.

    Do we see such invoking or petitioning of the dead practiced or taught by God’s people in the Scriptures? No. Are there those in heaven who rejoice when one down here comes to repentance (Luke 15:7)? Yes. But does it say we who still live are to pray/invoke those who have died and gone to heaven? No. Does Heb. 11 mention a “cloud of witnesses”? Yes. Does it say we are to pray/invoke those who lived by faith in the past? No. In fact, nowhere in Scripture are we instructed to pray to, invoke, petition, or “pray along with” those who have died.

    On the contrary, the Scriptures tell us of a practice that the heathen performed that God specifically condemned. Furthermore He said that all who do such things are an abomination (some versions say “detestable”) to Him. Among these detestable people (Deut. 18:9-11) are those who “call up the dead”, “inquire of the dead”, “a necromancer” (depending on the English version). One might think this only refers to mediumship, but mediums are already condemned separately (in Deut 18:11) from these “necromancers”. When we look at the Hebrew words used for this specific abomination we see a combined usage of “darash” (“calling, seeking, inquiring, asking), and “muth” (the dead). Thus, according to Scripture, “calling, seeking, inquiring, asking” of those who have died, is specifically condemned by God. Furthermore, those who do it are detestable to Him.

  107. Sueliz
    Mystical union with “Jesus” through contemplative prayer.

    Shouldn’t we pray to be living in union with christ? What part of contemplative prayer bothers you?

    John 17,
    May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—23 I in them and you in me—

    “I in them”? sounds pretty mystical to me!

    Mary as mediatrix of all graces and coredeemer.
    This is not a Catholic Dogma or Teaching so can be easily dismissed as not very relevant right now, (even though some may personally believe it, it currently does not dogmatically divide us)

    Consecration to Jesus THROUGH Mary.
    This is a practice advocated by St Louis Demtfort but not dogmatic teaching. So by the church declaring him a St, it does imply that it is not in error.

    “Jesus” contained body blood soul and divinity in communion bread.
    Yes, this of course is truly church Dogmatic teaching on the Eucharist,

    John,
    My apologies about the Cor quote, it was written in the flesh and not from the spirit. I was sad that you gave up on me so soon. If there is any spin I could put on it that would convey any truth it is that truly our two camps have been at odds for over 500 years right? My heart here is to learn from my protestant brothers and sisters, to take in all that truth that they have and at the same time share with them – in the belief that I have something, maybe it is small, but something to bring here – to be about a better world where we grow in respect and love for each other and maybe in having these discussions in a healthy way we can dig through the crap and the BS that goes on and get to the heart of what divides us so that we can then work to find out how God wants his church to be one, and to me, that starts one person at a time. In short, yes, I should not have used that scripture, but I feel pretty beat up here and feel that everyone is pounding me with Solid food/meat and if I think I am right about anything and want to share that with you, it is certainly not going to be done by Defending arrogantly that what you say about me is true and I am right and you are wrong.

    You feel I dodge your questions because I feel you pose them in a way that is already condemning. When you say “do you pray to Mary”, it is not a yes or no simple answer because you are assuming something I don’t in the way you ask, so that my yes condemns me in your mind and yet my conscience remains free in my mind because of how we understand things differently.

    I am trying to talk about those differences in approaches in my responses, the child grieving over her father is an example, the kneeling at bedside with a bible and a photo another. And honestly, I did not know you would find the funeral scene objectionable and that is why this dialogue is helpful to me as with understanding brings clarity and compassion and truth.

    With all respect and regards to you and everyone here,
    Peace in Christ,
    Kurt

  108. Dear Kurt.

    You must stop playing the victim card complaining you are beat up. Debate the issues and doctrine and let’s leave feelings out of it. With all due respect this debate is over emotional which is bordering dysfunctional. Let’s be honest.
    There is way too much gushy love talk. Lovey dovey language does not change dogma or belief so let’s stay focused.

    Contemplative prayer is emptying your mind to reach a alternate state of consciousness. It’s called the occult. I’m sure you know who Thomas Merton is. A catholic monk who was also a Buddhist. Scripture teaches us to pray with our mind and not empty it so evil spirits won’t deceive. The CCC states that Buddhists can achieve Divine illumination by praying to Buddha. Hmmmm Nice endorsement of paganism.

    Asking Mary to pray for you is asking a created being who is not omnipresent or omnipotent to read your soul like only the Lord can.

    Having the Holy Spirit reside in us IS not contemplative prayer!!!

    Louis DeMonforts book is complete and utter blasphemy and Mary worship.

    The future 5 th Marian dogma that John Paul 2 believed- Mary as coredemptrix and mediatrix spearheaded by Prof Mark Miravalle will eventually come to pass. Of course that is my speculation.

    http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/merton.htm

    What I was trying to say about Contemplative prayer is that it is very similar to Buddhist meditation That’s why pope jp2 was good friends with the Dali Lama and allowed a Buddha to be out on the tabernacle and worshiped in 1986 at the inter religious meeting in Assissi.

  109. David,
    Yes in the old testament it was instructed to us not to invoke the dead, But Christ destroyed the power of Death and you are giving that power back to the enemy. Scripture says

    1 Corinthians 15:22
    For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

    We do not pray to those Dead, but to those alive in Christ.

    Eph 2 1
    1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins….But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions

    We are alive in Christ and The church, all of us who love Christ our Lord are no longer subject to Death for it has no power over us.

    Jesus says we will never taste Death
    John 8:51-53
    51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.’ 53 Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?”
    Romans 6:2-4
    do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
    Romans 8:2
    For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

    David, you give power back to Death, back to the enemy and thus diminish the Gospel and its power. The saints do intercede for us, We see it in revelations and we remain connected to them because of our common life in Christ for he is the head of the body, the church militant and the church triumphant, which Death can no longer divide or have power over.

    Rev 5:8 regarding the prayers of the saints,
    Rev 6:9&10 The martyrs cry out to God and plead with him concerning things on earth
    Rev 8: 3 the incense and prayers of the saints are revealed.
    Mat 17 1-3 those that have died, but live in christ are revealed to the apostles
    Mat 27 52&53, as the tombs are open to reveal the truth that Death no longer reigns but rather life in Christ, the saints appear many and walk around the city

    Protestant Greek Scholars such as Marvin Vincent and A. T. Rovertson comment on the hebrews passage I shared,

    “the cloud of witness is an arena, watching, overhanging like a cloud filled with lively interest and sympathy and lending heavenly aid
    (robertson v, 432)

    Bottomline, I believe Scripture,
    I believe that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ,
    I believe that we are one body in Christ and that to assert that Death would have the power to make it a grave sin to ask my grandfather who died and is with the Lord to pray with me and for me is rather silly to be honest.

    It is not consistent with church history,
    Jerome for example stated in 406 AD
    “if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?” (Against Vigilantius 6 [c. 406 AD]).

    And methodios in the 300’s

    Methodius (circa 305 AD). “Therefore we pray [ask] you [Mary], the most excellent among women, who glorifies in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance.”

    It is just not the Gospel message David,

    Peace in Christ,
    Kurt

  110. Kurt,
    They are still physically dead. There is nowhere, absolutely nowhere in Scripture which has people praying to those who have died. All prayers in Scripture are to GOD. We are told to pray to God the father in the name of the Son. Some pray to Jesus – who is God.

    DO you pray to anyone on earth? By your reasoning, that should be normal. The Romanist idea that we pray to the dead to for them to intercede for us is totally unbiblical. The idea has to abuse Scripture in order to make any sort of a case.

    Think about this: in order for those who have died to be able to hear all the prayers directed to them, they would have to be omnipresent!

    The practice is blatantly unbiblical – period.

  111. I wanted to go back to James 2:24, ‘Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.’ This verse is pointed to repeatedly by Kurt as a clincher for what he has been taught and believes. In his book entitled ‘the pursuit of holiness’ Jerry Bridges states ‘this is the point James is making in his hard-to-understand passage on faith and works. He is simply telling us that a ‘faith’ that does not result in works – a holy life, in other words – is not a living faith but a dead one, no better than that which the demons possess’.

    So what is ‘holy living’? Is it attending mass, or praying to Mary religiously? Is it doing good deeds, or being faithful to confess our sins to a priest? None of the above, again I turn to Jerry Bridges from his aforementioned book, “to live a holy life, then, is to live a life in conformity to the moral precepts of the Bible and in contrast to the sinful ways of the world. It is to live a life characterized by the putting off of your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires, and putting on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness”.

    It is a desire to be like, live like, think like, and act like Jesus Christ – “Holiness is to be separated unto God, to be immersed in God, to be passionate about God, to be wild about God, to think about God, to be God besought, to be consumed by God.” – by Paul Washer

  112. What we need to remember when we speak to someone like Kurt Filla, brothers and sisters, is that he rejects Scripture as final authority, he flat out rejects the sufficiency of God’s Word, therefore when we say things like “There is nowhere, absolutely nowhere in Scripture which has people praying to those who have died”.

    That does not mean too much to Mr filla, if we point out that something the RCC practices/teaches is not found in Scripture in our minds that should be enough for him to repent from that practice/teaching. Sadly this could not be further from the truth, and in Kurt’s mind when he hears that there is something the RCC teaches not found in Scripture his mind simply defaults to something like “It’s no biggy, the church is the final authority anyway, and has the last say”.

    In private dialogue with Kurt I showed him this quote by Jesuit founder Ignatius Loyola :

    “That we may be altogether of the same mind and in conformity with the church
    herself, if she shall have defined anything to be black which to our eyes
    appears to be white, we ought in like manner to pronounce it black”

    (St Ignatius Loyola, “Rules for thinking with the church” Rule 13 (Cited from
    Documents of the Christian Church, ed, Henry Bettenson [Oxford University pres,
    1947] 364-65).

    In order for us to witness effectively to Kurt we need to bare in mind the above and focus on the sufficency of Scripture.

    dale (UK).

  113. Yes Dale. Amen. As an ex-Catholic I confirm what you say.

    Let us remember church teaching that solidifies your Loyola quote:

    ‘This loyal submission of the will and intellect must be given, in a special way, to the authentic authority of the Roman Pontiff, even when he does not speak ex cathedra, in such wise, indeed, that his supreme teaching authority be acknowledged with respect, and sincere assent be given to decisions made by him.’

    The substance of the above doctrine from Vatican II is repeated in the Code of Canon Law, Canons 749752.

  114. Kurt, I told you I would respond to your message, and I’ve chosen to do it here.

    You said in one of your posts that you thought my response was theologically driven. Just to clarify, all of my posts have been theologically driven. You expressed concern that you had offended me, but you most certainly haven’t in any personal way. The theology you express is offensive to my theology, as mine, no doubt, is offensive to yours. But there is nothing of personal offense driving my response to you. I actually think I would like you as a neighbour.

    I believe in what is called the Sufficiency of Scripture. II Timothy 3:17 tells us that the Scriptures are sufficient for all we need to be completely equipped for all good works. You believe that the traditions of the church have equal authority. The Scriptures tell us we need no such traditions — the Bible alone is enough.

    I believe in what is known as the Perspicuity of Scripture. That means that the Scriptures are understandable – we do not need a priest or a church to tell us what they mean, we can understand them ourselves. I have three recent posts on this on my blog – I’ll not link to them, because that’s not the purpose of my comment here, but you may have seen them when you visited. The third one, you may find somewhat offensive, because it points out how ridiculous it is to think that God’s love requires a human priest. Yet, I do not apologise – there is Scriptural precedent for pointing out how ridiculous idolatry is, and putting a priest in the place of Christ is a form of idolatry.

    I believe in the priesthood of the believer (I Peter 2:9). All believers have a direct relationship with God, and need no other priest than Christ (I Timothy 2:4-5), nor, for that matter, intercessors such as Mary or saints. Nor do I believe the authority claimed by your church to tell people what to believe is at all supported by Scripture.

    Even the Apostle Paul said that he did not have dominion over the faith of the believers in the Corinthian church, a church he founded (II Corinthians 1:24). He didn’t say that such authority rested with Peter or the church in Jerusalem, or in Rome. Rather, he said they stand by faith – faith in God, not in man, or in churches. Human authority vs. faith — he chose faith.

    I believe that truth is not always popular, not always pleasant. Sometimes, it offends (I Corinthians 1:23-31). I am not concerned if someone rejects what I say, nor even particularly if they direct personal comments against me, if I have stated Biblical truth. I might limit such comments in my church or on my own blog, against me or other Bible teachers, but that is because those who truly teach His Word represent Christ, and where I can limit inappropriate comments against His representatives, I should do so. But it isn’t personal, even then. I’ll be rewarded if I’m persecuted (which is just a measure of His grace, to reward ME of all people for something someone else does to me, not even for anything I do).

    I am justified by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8-9). The righteousness of God has been imputed (credited) to my account through Christ (Romans 3:22, 24). Anyone who preaches another Gospel is accursed, even if it is an angel from Heaven (Galatians 1:8-9). Although this is a general statement, we should not lose sight of the fact that the error Paul was refuting was not one of taking away from the Gospel, but of adding requirements to it that were not in Scripture. Thus, this speaks to your church, which by its tradition adds requirements to the Gospel.

    Any good works that I do are a gift of love to the Saviour who loved me – they have no merit in His sight to contribute to my salvation in any way. Isaiah, writing as part of a community of believers (not unbelievers), said that “all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6). This is true whether I am preaching or teaching or reading His Word or praying or giving to the church or the poor. All that I have (time, money, abilities) I received from Him, and I merely give Him what is His own (I Chronicles 29:11-14). There is no merit in what I do for Him at all.

    My relationship with those who believe another Gospel is, again, theologically-driven. I cited Romans 16:17 previously. II John 7-11 says we are not to in any way help those who bring doctrine contrary to the doctrine of Christ. We are not even to give them greetings when that is what they are doing. That doesn’t mean, if my neighbour is a Roman Catholic, that I would not greet him, or help him in need – but I would not say or do anything that even remotely gives the suggestion that advocacy of his beliefs is acceptable. (I am not talking about limiting his religious freedom, I am talking about my personal response.) There are other verses I could cite as well, that tell me to keep distance from those who bring a different Gospel.

    There are many differences that I hold with Roman Catholics besides the problem of a different Gospel. Some have been discussed on this thread. I absolutely reject your view that the work of Christ changed the prohibition against communication with the dead. Christ made very clear in His response to the Sadducees that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were spiritually alive, though physically dead, when God spoke to Moses at the burning bush. Yet, it was forbidden to seek to communicate with them. Thus, it is also forbidden today. And so on. There are probably hundreds of ways in which Roman Catholic doctrine has deviated from Scriptural truth.

    I could overlook some errors, at least to consider a person who holds those errors to be a brother in Christ. But I cannot overlook a different Gospel, and that is what your church teaches. If you claim otherwise, you deny your own church, for it anathematises those who believe as I do. The differences between us are not minor matters of interpretation.

    I would not join with a Roman Catholic in an interfaith meeting. I would not join with him in a political association if it were to be called a “Christian” or “faith-based” initiative. I might appreciate the fact that he tells the truth on political questions, I might vote for a Roman Catholic politician, but I would never vote for one who asks me to vote for him because he is a Christian — that would be to validate his faith. I would not take joint part in a funeral service or a wedding with a Roman Catholic priest. I would not join with a Roman Catholic in a poverty-fighting campaign or aiding the poor — that would be to say that we are partners in faith..

    All of this is true though I might have great personal regard on many levels for an individual Roman Catholic, though I might appreciate him as a friend and neighbour. When he puts on the hat of “advocate for Roman Catholicism,” he becomes one I cannot join with in any way, shape, or form. If he wants to advertise my blog or my church, I would prefer he not do so. If he asks me if he can help deliver our Gospel leaflets, I would say no. I would question why he wants to do so, anyway. His church has declared anathema on the Gospel I preach and teach. If he believes his church, and he believes Scripture, he shouldn’t want to be helping me, either.

    In discussions such as this one, I have no problem with engaging with Roman Catholics who are interested in finding out what I believe. Perhaps the Scriptures will sink in. But I have no interest in engaging, as if brothers, with someone who is advocating Roman Catholic doctrine. In this discussion thread, you’ve “put on that hat,” and that’s not a discussion that my theology encourages me to have. All I can do is refute your error and walk away.

    That is even more the case with someone who appears to be disingenuous. I am entirely willing to take your word that you had no such intention. I suspect the manner of your involvement here may have been consistent with training you have received. It certainly gave the appearance of being disingenuous, but I’m not particularly interested in judging your motives at this point.

    Furthermore, in light of other things I’ve said here, perhaps you will understand why I say this: I’m not interested in telling you all the specifics of why you appeared disingenuous, because I don’t want to help you learn to be a more effective advocate for Roman Catholicism. I’m beginning to feel doubtful of even refuting you anymore on this thread — you’ve been refuted sufficiently, and I don’t want to just teach you how to modify your arguments.

    Now, it is very possible that some of this seems offensive to you. That is neither my desire nor my intent, but simply a function of telling you what I believe to be true. It is all theologically-driven. If I happened to be in your area in the States (which happens from time to time) and it were to work out for us to get together for lunch, I would be happy to do that. I suspect that we would find much in common on a personal level. I would even converse with you in private about the differences in our faith, if you wanted to do that. I am not prepared to be a party any further to you advocating it to others in a public forum.

    I trust that this has answered your questions and the things you have said to me both privately and on this blog. If you choose to respond, I will most certainly read your response, but my involvement on this thread is ended.

    This is probably too long for a blog comment, for which I apologise to all who have waded through it. I hope some find some profit in it.

  115. This has been a great discussion, showing the difference between Scripture interpreting Scripture vs another philosophy/belief interpreting Scripture. Thank you Kurt Filla for so excellently showing us how to interpret Scripture by presuming Catholic dogma as your basis. In my part of the world I often see Muslims interpreting the Bible according to their Islamic presuppositions. (For example they use Deut 18:18 to prove that Moses prophesied the coming of Muhammed – never mind that he was not descended from any of the people Moses addressed. Never mind that he didn’t fulfill any of the other numerous prophecies.) We see the same thing as New Agers and “atheists” cherry pick verses and use them to “prove” their own suppositions. Perhaps we could say that the basis of “Sola Scritura” is that Scripture interprets Scripture?

  116. Rosa,
    thank you for saying this
    Scripture interpreting Scripture. This is one of the biggest reasons I remain catholic. That statement doesn’t work. How is it possible for that to happen without a body in the middle of the sentence and then I am sure you will agree with me that all of us are fallible on our own.

    You have to remember from a Catholic perspective you would not have God’s word, without the Church saying “this is God’s word”, and if the church never had the gift of infallibility than you have no confidence that the books you use, (which I may add you don’t use all of them) are truly sufficient. Without the church, you have a fallible list of infallible books at the best. I would go out on a limb and say without the church you have a fallible list of fallible books. Of course I don’t believe that because I rejoice in the gift of infallibility that assures me that the books we use are truly the Canon.

    This is why the quote that Sueliz posted and dale shared is so beautiful to me,

    Catholic saint Ignacio Loyola expressed the Catholic mindset well: “We should always be disposed to believe that that which appears white is really black, if the hierarchy of the Church so decides”.
    It is complete unity with scripture,

    Romans 16: 17 – 19
    17 Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them. 18 For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting. 19 For the report of your obedience has reached to all; therefore I am rejoicing over you, but I want you to be wise in what is good and innocent in what is evil. 20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

    You see Sue, You despise Rome so of course that quote is offensive to you, but replace Church with the Apostle Paul, and that is the spirit that Ignatius (and I) adhere to.

    So you see Rosa and Sueliz, scripture teaches us the scripture does not interpret scripture, but rather the Gospel is taught by the apostles and the early christians were obedient to them. It would be much, much easier for me to pick up scripture and say

    Jon,
    You said,
    “Now, it is very possible that some of this seems offensive to you.”

    Not at all, it was your first post that mainly attacked the doctrines and what you thought about the church rather than making grand assumptions about my character. I understand you have some thoughts about my approaches, but nothing you said was offensive. Thank you for that. I wish you well.

    And by the way, I am less concerned about being better at arguing a point and more concerned about how to Love like Christ loved. It is through prayer, fasting, almsgiving and love that we will change the world and while I have enjoyed our dialogue, it is not my goal to adjust my approach on anything. I am quite confident that God wants you to come home, but I understand you must first follow your conscience, and that is of the utmost importance and the church affirms that in you,

    From the Vatican Council,

    “In the depths of his conscience, man detects a law which he does not impose upon himself, but which holds him to obedience. Always summoning him to love and avoid evil, the voice of conscience can, when necessary, speak to his heart more specifically: do this, shun that. For man in his heart a law written by God. To obey it is the very dignity of man; according to it he will be judged.
    Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. “He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters.”

    And Lynn, I am very grateful for your post,

    especially this part,
    “In his book entitled ‘the pursuit of holiness’ Jerry Bridges states ‘this is the point James is making in his hard-to-understand passage on faith and works. He is simply telling us that a ‘faith’ that does not result in works – a holy life, in other words – is not a living faith but a dead one, no better than that which the demons possess’. ”

    What I like most of all is that you relied on someone else’s interpretation of the verse to convey truth you believe, and that person recognizes “it is hard to understand”, which supports my point that I need someone to teach me.

    So is scripture sufficient? Absolutley, It says so clearly in God’s word, But does it also need to be understood and taught properly, Yes. Without an infallible authority you have a lot of people with a lot of good ideas….
    Peace in Christ,
    Kurt

  117. Kurt said..”You have to remember from a Catholic perspective you would not have God’s word, without the Church saying “this is God’s word”, and if the church never had the gift of infallibility than you have no confidence that the books you use.”

    Perhaps from a roman catholic perspective that statement is true Kurt….However we (Christians) are not in the business of believing a lie, we are not in the business of pronouncing black white when it is very clearly black.

    You need to check out church history Kurt if you have any modicom of love for truth.

    This comment you made here scares me Kurt : “This is why the quote that Sueliz posted and dale shared is so beautiful to me” in reference to Ignatius Loyola :

    “That we may be altogether of the same mind and in conformity with the church
    herself, if she shall have defined anything to be black which to our eyes
    appears to be white, we ought in like manner to pronounce it black”

    I think you have demonstrated now that you are not a Christian Kurt, no -one born of God would agree in any sense with the above quote, true Christians would run a million miles from that and any religion promoting it.

    Repent and believe the Gospel !

  118. I must make this remark for the innocent and unknowing: Ignatius Loyola and the apostle Paul could not be further opposites. Anyone questioning it needs to read the Jesuit oath. End of story.

    http://www.reformation.org/jesuit-oath.html

  119. Where was the Catholic church when Jesus opened the scriptures to the Jews?

    Nonexistant. The Word of God existed before the RCC The Word was intact without error before the RCC and the Bereans read these scriptures daily not even believing what was told to them without searching the scriptures. Somehow the word was protected for years and years without the Vatican.

    Let’s all remember with gratitude that not too long ago the bible was kept from the people. It was on the forbidden book list. Those who dared to translate it to get the word to the common people were tortured and burned at the stake. If a person held the word of God in their possession the Catholic Church would not even forgive their sins unless the Bible was removed from their homes.

    Kurt. I am irritated that you quote Vatican council affirming the right of conscious. Please tell me. Why was not Tyndale given this right? Or the Anabaptists or millions of believers tortured to death on unimaginable tortures??!

    You say you are so sure that the Lord wants all believers to ” come home “to the Catholic Church. Which part of the blood thirsty murder should we forget about and “come home”?

    The Gospel has been presented to you over and over again on the site yet you refuse to believe it. The Gospel you believe is the gospel of Rome and it is completely different than the biblical gospel.

    The dividing line of this gospel will forever divide those who believe in this gospel will never leave it. Those who live by it will die for it. Those regenerated from the pit, utterly saved by grace are already home. And He has made his home in them. Those who were lost in a sea of sin have been rescued by his hand and saved by the gospel of Jesus Christ will never turn and need religion and the pope, rituals and feast days. Amen.

  120. SueLiz,
    You asked,
    “Where was the Catholic church when Jesus opened the scriptures to the Jews? ”
    Being taught by a catholic university I thought you would know the answer to this. But I will humor you. Jesus is the head of the Church and therefore it was right there, with him as head and it was right there in the eyes that were opened as the body.

    You said,
    he Word of God existed before the RCC The Word was intact without error before the RCC

    Matthew 16:18
    And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

    So the church was there, being established long before the letters of Paul were first written, even before, Paul was converted (I don’t really care about the Term rome in this context – I just care that scripture is gaurded and can properly understood.

    You said,
    “Somehow the word was protected for years and years without the Vatican.”
    And I want to be clear I agree it has been protected, my point, which no one has yet to address (except I believe Glen did without much additional commentary), regarding the process by which the Canon was establish. That book in your hand was not penned by God from the Sky, but through his Church, and it was penned & protected from error. But who told you which books were protected and which books were not? The answer which Glen gave (and I appreciated the honesty) and agree with him, is the Church. But without a gift of infallibility what confidence do you have in that process or proclamation of the canon, A canon that was fairly well agreed upon until protestants threw out a few books that did not agree with their “new” teachings completing ignoring the council of carthage and the council of rome.

    Sue you said,
    “Let’s all remember with gratitude that not too long ago the bible was kept from the people. It was on the forbidden book list. Those who dared to translate it to get the word to the common people were tortured and burned at the stake. If a person held the word of God in their possession the Catholic Church would not even forgive their sins unless the Bible was removed from their homes.”
    That sounds really, really scary right? but I say amen Sister to the truth you proclaim. Please remember that this type of dialogue does nothing for my catholic mindset. I call you sister in Christ. You have many gifts to bring, and throughout history protestants have done great work in many areas where the sins of the magesterium prohibited things we now all take for granted. Please know, and please take this seriously. I claim the the church is infallible, not impeccable.

    Sue,
    You said,
    “Kurt. I am irritated that you quote Vatican council affirming the right of conscious. Please tell me. Why was not Tyndale given this right? Or the Anabaptists or millions of believers tortured to death on unimaginable tortures??!”

    I will tell you why, because the teaching on the affirmation of conscious is true (infallible), but the practice of carrying it out with care, purity and uprightness is not impeccable and what happened in my opinion was sinful conduct by sinful men in positions of power. Our Catholic church history has many stages of grave sin that I am greatly grieved by.

    Sue you said,
    “You say you are so sure that the Lord wants all believers to ” come home “to the Catholic Church. Which part of the blood thirsty murder should we forget about and “come home”?

    the answer is simple,
    Ephesians 5:1
    Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children;

    And what does God do
    Heb 8:12
    12 For I will forgive their wickedness
    and will remember their sins no more.

    And Is 43
    25 “I, even I, am he who blots out
    your transgressions, for my own sake,
    and remembers your sins no more.

    You need to forgive Sueliz

    What happen was sinful, and as people of God we must forgive one another. I believe there were sins on both sides of the fence, but I try to practice what I preach and not recall them or use them in arguments like this because it does not help to reconcile the world to Christ nor does it imitate God who forgive and forgets, for I have already forgiven it, I am human and the forgetting is hard for me, but I pray for God’ grace. For example I was abused by a man for 3 years as a pre adolescent. Forgiving is easy. Erasing those memories takes grace, but I know in time I will be fashioned by God’s hands and those memories erased.

    Sue you said,
    “And He has made his home in them. Those who were lost in a sea of sin have been rescued by his hand and saved by the gospel of Jesus Christ”
    and I am not here to prove to you I am a christian, for it appears my association with rome defacto disqualifies me, But know I believe Christ is in my heart, his home is there. I was lost at sea of great, serious sin and his love convicted my heart. I lost family, friends, my daughter, my girlfriend, school, car everything when I came to Jesus. I had nothing but truth planted in my heart so deeply that I cried for hours and days on end with gratitude for God’s saving hand in my life. After my drug addiction my girlfriend got pregnant and was going to have an abortion. I came to the Lord on Oct 10 1988 where I asked jesus to be my personal lord and savior and confessed my sins before his mercy and love and surrendered my life forever to him. My protestant friend, nancy, who is still my friend today (and protestant) was the one who witnessed to me and led me in the prayers that I had said a 1,000 times in the pews and never truly believed until I was at rock bottom. As a result of my conversion my girlfriend withdrew from me, took my baby in her womb and forbade me from contact, lied to me and said my daughter wasn’t even mine and she had been sleeping around. I had to drop out of school at the time with $10,000 in debt and a mother and father who couldn’t help me and who I hurt so deeply by my sin. It was me, Jesus and my bible and the help of my protestant friend who lead me to who I am today, a person madly in love with Jesus and who has great grief over sin in the world. But I just want you to know that as you type words of division between us, it was because of you(protestants), and protestants like you that I found Jesus. I owe my brothers and sisters outside of the church (of Rome) for all that I am today. God led me step by step to a miraculous recovery from Drugs, cigarrettes, alcohol, impurities, lies, deceit and more. 3 years ago, I was reunited with my daughter who I never saw my whole life nor knew she was even mine, but I never gave up hope and searched for her for 18 years and I prayed for her everyday of my life. To my joy and tears her mother who abandoned me due to my faith now testifies along with her husband who is a jew for jesus, that my conversion and commitment to abstain from further sexual immorality was one of the key points in her own conversion. I am not some random nutty catholic with an agenda. I love you, my protestant brothers and sisters for it was through your willingness to pray with me, witness to me and love me in a radical and powerful way that I could know the Joy that passes all understanding of serving Christ alone, Through Grace Alone, Through faith apart from works. (thank you for letting me share)

    And finally, personally, as a side note, I have some issues with current jesuits and want to echo what I said about men and women in the church, they are full of sin, many of the jesuits today have lost the true faith. I have a christian/catholic friend who goes to Loyola now and is appalled with what is being taught that is not even remotely catholic. My main point is that you misquoted me, I was not comparing the Ignatius to Paul. I was comparing the spirit of the quote with scripture in that I want to live the model that scripture gives us and the scripture quote I used was about obedience to the Apostles teachings. If scripture is not a model for how to live a holy life, the my apologies. But I do believe it is and therefore I do believe with 100% assurance if the early church could be obedient to apostolic teaching (without any reference to sola scritpura), I too can do the same, for today the church teachings scriptures with that same authority and it is a gift from the Holy Spirit. so it is never MEN that I put my trust in when it comes to dogmas and moral teachings it is the supernatural gift of the Holy spirit protecting the church from the gates of hell, giving us the canon of scripture and the infallible gift to never proclaim a lie as a truth. It is the Spirit of god at work in the church whom I glorify and the reason why I can say with Ignatius, If the church teaches it, I can believe it. That gift does not lie outside of the church so as you teach your shades of scripture colors I can point to what is accurate and what is not and rejoice with you in the truth and grieve where there is still division.

    That is all for now,
    Thank you Sue for being there to allow me to fine tune our discussions. You have much passion and bring up many good points, just not many points that answer or address my concerns here and what dale rightly points out. I reject sola scriptura because of the bible. I believe it is unscriptural or rather an “new” teaching not handed down by the apostles. Is all of it useful and sufficient, absolutely, No need to convince me further on sufficiency. but there is no verse in scripture that says “only” scripture is to be used, nor does it say anywhere that only scripture should be interpreting scripture, since it just can’t be done.

    Peace in Christ,
    Kurt

  121. Kurt,

    Thank you for sharing your burdened past. I do not deny that you came to the Lord and HE changed your life. I appreciate your story and all you went through and am grateful for your Protestant friend that shared the gospel with you and led you to Jesus. And as I am very sorry for your suffering, you can not compare it to the 600 years of Inquisition marking a harlot church.
    My question is how did that led you to Rome and the Pope? You have forsaken the gospel your friend shared with you Kurt, because Rome adds to the gospel.
    When i spoke about the scriptures I was talking about the Old Testament. Please do not patronize me and “humor me.”
    Before Jesus walked the earth, the Word was there. Being read and followed by the Jews. This Word was not preserved by an “infallible” pope or the Vatican. Still it remained without error and was preserved being taught in the synagogues. As Jesus grew and matured, He also taught these scriptures. There was still no infallible pope.
    There is no infallible pope. I do not deny Peter was a leader in the church. I do deny he was “infallible” and of a hierarchy. The Lord said we are all brothers and sisters. Jesus is our high priest. There was no Christian priesthood in the New Testament. The veil was torn and we can enter into relationship through Jesus. There is no other mediator between God and man. There is only the priesthood of all believers. Please don’t quote Acts 6:6 for the Catholic priesthood. Laying of hands was in the Jewish tradition of blessing others not a conferring of the priesthood. Priests were born into the priesthood as Levites.

    Matthew 23:8
    “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.

    You say I need to forgive. Forgive the antichrist??

    Forgive me, but I am so TIRED of hearing all the ‘mistakes’ of the church were from ‘sinful men.’ Seriously? 600 years of the Inquisition is because of some sinful men? Did you know it was the Popes or “Vicars of Christ” that thought up most of the tortures, which were so brutal and demonic? It’s just too easy to say, it was just a group of sinful men. No. The Church has been and still is about power. Power through concordats, power through canon law being made into civil law.
    I have said this before, but you will not address the calls for world govt., how Rome supports it. Rome also lures the world religions through interfaith dialogue because she will head up the world religion when one world govt. is enacted, which is not far away. Please research the facts on this that are all over the news. Let us not forget the Office of Inquisition STILL EXISTS, ONLY THEY CHANGED THE NAME TO CONGREGATION OF DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH.

    http://sueliz1.wordpress.com/2012/01/06/the-office-of-inquisition-seeks-unity-of-all-christians-during-2012/

    Kurt, you still do not address the demonic Jesuit-oath and still revere Loyola, which I don’t understand how that is possible really.
    Finally, you say you were saved by Grace alone through Faith alone. Ironically, that contradicts the teachings of the Catholic church in the council of Trent, which deems you anathema if you believe that.
    Peace,
    Sue

  122. Kurt,

    I want to make sure one thing is clear. The Scriptures were indeed penned by members of the Church. But when we are talking about the Church of the first two centuries, we are NOT talking about Roman Catholicism. The Roman Church was not the organization it became in the 4th century. And it was not a church with popes and magisterium, etc, nor was it a church claiming total authority over the Church. You tend to convolute the two. Roman Catholicism was a later development – an apostate and heretical development which ascribed to itself authority which it was never given by Christ.

    There is NO “infallibility” with the Romanist organization – never has been. It is a self-proclaimed doctrine without biblical support, and with plenty of history to prove it as 100% erroneous.

    By the way, the canon was established before Romanism took over, and the canon did NOT include the books Rome later added in an effort to support false teachings such as purgatory.

  123. I forgot to mention that because there is no specific verse promoting sola scriptura, you wont believe it. Isn’t that in itself using the premise of sola scriptura? If it’s not in the bible you don’t believe it?
    Plus, I believe Timothy is sufficient.
    “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.” (2 Timothy 3:16) (NIV) .

    There is nowhere in the bible that says to venerate statues, pray the rosary, and submit to the Roman Pontiff, but you do that no problem. So that argument does not hold water.
    http://www.justforcatholics.org/answers.htm#1

  124. SueLiz,
    I am sorry that my words “humor you” were a distraction. I meant that it seemed like the question was a redundant one since I would assume being taught as a catholic you would know the answer to the question “where was the church?” I did not mean it in any offensive way, but only in a way that continued the dialogue regardless if I understood your intent correctly. I say it all the time with friends and is just a phrase I use, I realize now how it could have been misunderstood over e-mail. I will refrain from using it again per your request, again my apologies.
    Yes, forgiveness is hard. I believe I have tasted a small bit of that truth in my life but agree with you that it does not compare to the past horrors. But Sueliz, citing them here as proof of anythings does no good now. I can do the same and how does that help us?

    Here let’s try your tactics.
    On October 27, 1553 John Calvin, the founder of Calvinism, had Michael Servetus, a catholic, the Spanish physician, burned at the stake just outside of Geneva for his doctrinal beliefs!

    Now I could cling to that as proof that Calvin was a heretic, or in the present day I can reflect on the times, the tensions, the Fury and not link that to how true or false Calvinist beliefs are now or were then. Calvin was a sinful man, Luther was a sinful man, Many, Many of the Popes were sinful men (many with concubines) and many of our priest and popes will not be found in heaven. I do not submit to the teachings of Men, but to the Grace of the Holy spirit working through Humanity.

    I don’t have time to answer all your questions this moment ( I will soon) but I do want to be clear, I did not say, as you posted…
    “Finally, you say you were saved by Grace alone through Faith alone.”

    Please go back and reread what I said, I chose my words very very carefully Sueliz so that I am always in unity with the teachings of the church and I did not state that.

    Now as you reread it and realize your error in misquoting me, you might be keen to pick up on the word “serve” as being disingenuous and purposefully misleading and I did not mean that word to be a distraction so I will save you the trouble of looking up what I said and re post the statement more appropriately. ( I was very tired last night after a long business trip)

    “I love you, my protestant brothers and sisters for it was through your willingness to pray with me, witness to me and love me in a radical and powerful way that I could know the Joy that passes all understanding and the saving power of Christ alone, Through Grace Alone, being Justified Through faith apart from works.” Amen

    Lastly, I don’t care about a one world govt conspiracy, it is not dogma, it is not being proclaimed from a valid council or “ex cathedra” nor could it ever for the Holy Spirit protects the church throughout all of history from ever proclaiming a lie as a truth so I have complete assurance that it will have no impact on Dogmatic teachings. Sinful men will do what sinful men will do. It is dogma I care about, not some conspiracy that I am sure you have a great deal of info on. It does not affect my faith and that is why I have not addressed it. I also believe the days are dark, evil is all around us and it will be harder and harder to tell the sheep from the wolves. And from a catholic perspective it will even be harder for those of us who believe we know the truth “inside the walls of Rome” for there is often decay and grave sin all around us “inside the walls of Rome”. It is Doctrine that I care about it with Scripture and Tradition as my lamps in the night.

  125. Lets not get sidetracked here, allow me to simplyfy:

    Roman catholics do not believe that Jesus Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient, as they may have to suffer for some sins in purgatory.

    Christians do not believe in purgatory and agree with Scripture:

    Heb 9:24-26 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is,
    has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    And :

    Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

    Roman catholics then, deny the sufficiency of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice,this is another Jesus, and deny the sufficiency of Scripture, adding to the Word of God and also have a different Holy Spirit, one who does not convict them of the sin of idolatry, finally they have a Gospel of works, the CCC confirms this by stating that sacrements are necessary for salvation #1129 & #2068.

    This is another Gospel folks, another Jesus and another Spirit:

    2Co 11:3-4 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.

    And:

    Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one e preached to you, let him be accursed.

    The difference between us goes back further than 500 years, it is the difference between truth and error and goes right back to the garden of Eden when satan asked Eve ” Has God really said ….?”

  126. And Lynn, I am very grateful for your post,

    especially this part,
    “In his book entitled ‘the pursuit of holiness’ Jerry Bridges states ‘this is the point James is making in his hard-to-understand passage on faith and works. He is simply telling us that a ‘faith’ that does not result in works – a holy life, in other words – is not a living faith but a dead one, no better than that which the demons possess’. ”

    What I like most of all is that you relied on someone else’s interpretation of the verse to convey truth you believe, and that person recognizes “it is hard to understand”, which supports my point that I need someone to teach me.”

    You don’t like what I posted because it goes against what you’ve been taught. I backed what I posted with definitions of holiness, which make the passage in James easy to understand to those who have been born from above.

    You do not believe in sola scriptura, nor do you believe in the finished work of Christ alone to save to the uttermost dead sinners; Christ did not die to make salvation possible, He died to completely save all the Father gives Him. You have no assurance of anything because you believe man made traditions and teachings. Why do you keep coming here Kurt? You have no desire for truth, your agenda is nothing more than defending an unbiblical dead religion. There are believers here who God has saved from their sins and brought them out of the dead religion you still cling to, such as sueliz and dale M, and you refuse to listen. Why? Because God has sovereignly chosen not to open your understanding at this present time. But I know His word will not return to Him void, it will accomplish the purpose for which He sent it. Either God will use His truth to save you, or He will use it to condemn you to hell on that final day. My prayer is the former, not the latter.

  127. Dale, it is hard for me to take you seriously right now when you misunderstand things so gravely.

    you start with this sentence
    “Roman catholics do not believe that Jesus Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient, as they may have to suffer for some sins in purgatory.”

    The church clearly teaches with no ambituity the unique character of Christ’s sacrifice as “the source of eternal salvation” and teaches that “his most holy Passion on the wood of the cross merited justification for us.”

    from the Catechism
    613 Christ’s death is both the Paschal sacrifice that accomplishes the definitive redemption of men, through “the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”, and the sacrifice of the New Covenant, which restores man to communion with God by reconciling him to God through the “blood of the covenant, which was poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins”.

    Dale there is nothing insufficient about this, the word definitive leaves no room for you assertion about what the church teaches.

    When Christ tells you in scripture to “pick up your cross and follow him”, is that not to you some indication that there will be suffering as a christian? If you must suffer in this world, does that mean christs sacrifice was insufficient? Of course not. When you are tempted, and go through the desert fighting trials against the world the flesh and the devil, is it not painful, difficult and hard at times? Does that mean Christ sacrifice was insufficient? of course not. It is out of love that we become purified and take up our cross and follow him. You misunderstand purgatory my friend and it is your misunderstanding that divides us, not church teaching. Promulgation of falsehoods about what we believe is not going to open my eyes to the truth. It further illustrates to me why you are not Catholic. If I believed what you did, I would not be catholic either.
    —————————

    Glen,

    quick question?

    You said,
    By the way, the canon was established before Romanism took over, and the canon did NOT include the books Rome later added in an effort to support false teachings such as purgatory.

    Please share with me, when was the official canon of scripture you use established? Please cite the sources as I would like to know exactly what context you using to support your assertions.

    And by the way, Everything you said, I get it Glen. I get that when we are talking about the first 200 years you do not equate that with Rome, no problem here to be with you in spirit. Call it whatever you like we are both referring to the same early church. So in taking “rome” out of the context, please tell me what you point to when you say “this is the canon I believe to be scripture and this is how I know our canon is the right one?” when in history was that done and who were the players at the time?
    Kurt

  128. Kurt said : “Dale there is nothing insufficient about this, the word definitive leaves no room for you assertion about what the church teaches.”

    and the teaching on purgatory in the CCC #1030 “All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,”
    contradicts what you are implying my friend, which ever way you look at it the existence of purgatory a place of suffering for sins after death to make us holy,makes Christ’s sacrifice insufficient. In other words He didn’t save anyone on the cross according to Rome, He just made salvation possible.

    2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

    You see Kurt, one of us has another Gospel, and according to Scripture if anyone comes with a different Gospel than the one Paul preached they should be anathemetised, therefore you should not be trying to unite yourself to us, you should be staying well away from us. Your position is a contradiction in terms, claiming to have the truth and at the same time calling yourself “our little catholic brother” that’s a contradiction Kurt.

    For the record, I would rejoice to call you a brother in Christ, however your alegiance to Rome and another Gospel tells the world that is not what you are.

    Be a lover of truth Kurt and the truth shall set you free.

  129. Purgatory (Lat., “purgare”, to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions. (end of quote)
    PLEASE NOTE, THAT THE TRANGRESSOR MUST PAY FULLY HIM OR HERSELF. THIS IS WHERE THE INSUFFICIENCY OF HIS SACRIFICE COMES IN ACCORDING TO ROME. THAT YOU MUST PAY FOR YOUR OWN SIN TO SATISFY GOD AND IF YOU ARE NOT PUNISHED ON EARTH, YOU WILL BE PUNISHED IN PURGATORY.
    The Second Vatican Council, p. 63, says, “The truth has been divinely revealed that sins are followed by punishments. Gods holiness and justice inflict them. Sins must be expiated. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments.” (END OF QUOTE)
    Let us not forget indulgences can be applied to the dead to get souls out of purgatory. How many prayers did I pray that said at the bottom of the booklet page “pray this prayer and receive 5 years indulgence” (basically take 5 years out of your purgatory stay.) In the medieval ages you could pay for the indulgences to get people out of purgatory. Now you can pay a stipend and have a mass said for that person to get them out. Or say rosaries and the like, or offer up your own suffering to get them out.

    Dale does not misunderstand anything and quite understands what Purgatory is. Simply that you must pay for your sins on earth through being punished in order for sins to be expiated.

    How sad. Jesus’ blood is enough to cover me, and I can not pay for my own sin. That is why He died. May this false doctrine be exposed..

    I too long to call you brother Kurt. I really do. I am putting you on my prayer list because you are loved and I want to see you free.

  130. Kurt do me the honour of watching this video and then comment please :

    I look forward to hearing your comments, please don’t ignore it.

  131. Kurt, What is known as the Apocrypha was NOT in the original Hebrew Bible, rather it showed up with the Septuagint, and the Jews did not canonize it. The Latin Vulgate, completed about 405 A.D. included the Apocrypha and was accepted as canon from then on. The Protestants rightly eliminated what the Jews did not consider canon.

    The Christians accepted the O.T. as canon because the Jews considered it as canon. As for the N.T., for the first two centuries there were several collections being considered as canon, some including more of the N.T. than others. But the Church as a whole considered these writings to be canon by the late 2nd century, which is why virtually all of the N.T. is cited in the writings of the early apostolic fathers.

    It was because of the Gnostics and their compiling of false works that a need existed to designate as canon what was already accepted in the Church. A possible reason to hasten this was due to the persecution of the early 4th century before Constantine. The majority of the churches in the East and West had already agreed as to what books were “canon.” The completed collection existed before the Roman decided to take over the Church. The Roman Catholic Church had no part in the selection of what was to be canon – that was determined before the RCC existed as such, and it was determined by the people themselves.

    As for citing specific reference sources for the history of the Bible, I have at least a dozen books on my own shelf, and there are many more works available to anyone who wants to learn the truth.

    What do I point to when I say, “this is the canon I believe to be scripture and this is how I know our canon is the right one?” I point to the same books the apostolic fathers pointed to in the first two centuries!

    Quit trying to give RCC credit for deciding what was to be canon – they had nothing to do with it.

  132. Dale,

    That was a REALLY good clip.
    The book of Tobit advocates witchcraft:
    Tobit 6:5-8, “If the Devil, or an evil spirit troubles anyone, they can be driven away by making a smoke of the heart, liver, and gall of a fish…and the Devil will smell it, and flee away, and never come again anymore.”

  133. Shocking Sue, but not surprising I guess.
    Glad you enjoyed the clip, Dr James White has done some fantastic debates with catholics they no longer debate him funny enough. There are many more on YouTube :

    This has the potential to help Kurt on the apocrypha, only if he watches it of course.

  134. Glen, thanks for your response, and I am in complete agreement about the heresies and why things happened the way they did. At this point in the discussion it is not about “Rome” to me. I can appreciate your time and the amount of books you have but I am trying to understand your mindset in regards to the first 200 years or whatever you call the church pre “rome”. Any quote from any early church writer will do, just Grab any book on your shelf and share with me what that you can point to that gives you 100% confidence that “yes, this is the authoritative list”. Which one of those quotes (or maybe none at all) give you cause to believe with certainty that the New testament books you have are correct, I mean 100% accurate without a shadow of a doubt? Or if anyone else has a moment to share about this that would be great. How this list was understood prior to the councils response to gnosticism would be great.

    Thanks

    Kurt

  135. Did you watch that video Kurt ?…It’s only a couple of minutes long and I would love to hear your thoughts on it…You do believe the same as the Roman Catholic priest on that video don’t you ??…after all he was just repeating what Rome has taught him.

  136. Kurt,
    I’m not playing this game. The history is available for all, the many lists compiled over the first two centuries are available for all to see. I don’t know what you are getting at except to come to a position which says that ROME is who we have to turn to in order to really know which books are canon, even though RCC did not exist when this was determined. What we have in the N.T. today is what was accepted as canon prior to the RCC coming into existence as the apostate and heretical organization it is today. So to look to Rome for any sort of confirmation is self-defeating.

    Also, the study of textual criticism helps us understand that what we have today are better than 99% accurate as to the original manuscripts. THAT’s how I can know beyond a shadow of a doubt.

  137. Well said Glenn, I wouldn’t worry too much about not answering Kurt’s question he has been ignoring most of mine throughout our discussion claiming they are “not productive”, what he really means is that he cannot blur the lines between us when confronted with the truth about his false teachings.

    Hey Kurt, white is still white my friend, check out that video and see if you are brave enough.

  138. Dale,

    Another good one on Transubstantiation. Thanks. Great to hear those facts.

  139. “Dale,

    Another good one on Transubstantiation. Thanks. Great to hear those facts.”

    Glad you appreciated them Sue, I wish Kurt had the same appreciation for facts.

  140. Keep ‘em coming Dale.

  141. At your request Sue.

    Here you go Kurt, this could really help you on the priesthood of all believers:

    And here on Sola Scriptura :

    Here is one on free will :

    I am still waiting for you to get back to me on the first one Mr Filla, I did ask nicely :)

    I know you hate me Kurt, and I know why but I just want you to know that ‘m praying for you.

  142. Oh my gosh dale, why would I hate you? why would you even think that? It could not be farther from the truth. I am hosting 12 people this weekend and just busy cooking and prepping etc

    I don’t hate you even slightly in fact I am quiet thrilled about our dialogue, it has been most engaging and I am so grateful for your time and feel you have been quite kind to me and generous with your time.

    Blessings to you my friend!
    Kurt

  143. Funny that, whenever we seem to get to a crucial point in our discussion when you have to face up to some major difficulties with your religion something occurs that prevents you responding, last time you were ill, this time you are preparing a meal

    I ask again ….Did you watch that video Kurt ?…It’s only a couple of minutes long and I would love to hear your thoughts on it…You do believe the same as the Roman Catholic priest on that video don’t you ??…after all he was just repeating what Rome has taught him.

    Just in case you forgot which video here it is :

    Take your time in responding Kurt.

  144. Dale,
    I as you know from viewing my facebook page, I am a father of 5, and a senior executive at a large advertising company. I do have a busy life so I would prefer you try to avoid poking at my character in this regard. I feel I have done a very fair job at responding to most all points addressed to me, and I will do the same here in this regard. And if there are others I missed, I would be happy to go back and address them if they are important to you. And from my side this is not crucial. Yes I watched the video the moment you posted it. I found it rather flat. The priest was not a great presenter, had a bit of a triumphant spirit about him which I find bothersome. quoting the scripture verse he did was probably not the best defense to Mr White who I found to be quite persuasive in his speech. Personally, in regards to the debate itself, I am not sure what doctrine in our catechism you are referring to. If you quote what we believe that you have issue with and cite the source of that dogma, I would be glad to address it.

    What I find funny is that you find my behavior funny when you all here avoid my crucial points and do the same thing you are saying I am doing. I try to get back to the issue, people here simply flat out tell me they won’t respond. It is a funny thing though that no one responded to my crucial point, in fact the moment I get to something crucial from my side of the fence Glen bailed on the dialogue and no one else responded. So I ask again,

    Glen,
    this is not a game.
    In regards to Sola scripture and specifically the NT canon,
    I just wanted to know what list you used or what sources you looked at in history prior to the councils, which we both agree were a result of gnosticism. I had a feeling you would not answer my question. I am not sure why though, that is what troubles me, but it is the behavior I predicted. Your assertions about me and what I was trying to get at are completely false, but you have to believe something about me right? I understand the conclusions you came to about me and respect your decision but would prefer a response from you are anyone.

    Does anyone else have an answer to my question in regards to the history available to us prior to the councils about the canon, and what you all use as the basis for knowing which NT books are the Canon that give the confidence to adhere to the doctrine of Sola Scripture?

    Finally, It is not my intent to blur the lines, I understand that you have left the church and there is a great chasm dividing us. I simply believe that you can still be saved and I can still believe you are my brother in that which unites us even though you put your faith in certain teachings that are false.

    Peace in christ,
    Kurt

  145. I don’t blame Glenn if he decides not to answer your question Kurt, as he said there is plenty of material for you to read up on if you are even remotely interested in the truth about where your religion came from and how we got the Bible. Sadly I believe that even if Glenn responds and answers you, it would still not be enough for you to abandon your alegiance to the vatican.

    Kurt I believe you have been deliberately evasive throughout our dialogue, you answer selective questions and avoid the questions you either do not have an answer for or the ones that you know makes your beliefs loook ridiculous. I for one am not going to strive with you any longer, it is clear that you are a slave of roman catholicism and have no desire for truth. You have constantly been presented with the Biblical Gospel of grace and flat out reject it in favour of another Gospel.

    In response to this on the video I posted:
    “Personally, in regards to the debate itself, I am not sure what doctrine in our catechism you are referring to. If you quote what we believe that you have issue with and cite the source of that dogma, I would be glad to address it.”

    The video showed very clearly that the roman catholic priest Peter Stravinskas, who incidentally was one of the RCC’s top apologists at that time, clearly believes that you can pay for your sins with money, just as the apocrypha and RCC teaches Kurt. I know you are not stupid and believe you know that this is what I wanted you to address Kurt.
    A reminder; in your own words you “believe everything rome teaches” Kurt. Therefore you must agree with mr Stravinskas.

    You have another Gospel, a Gospel of works, another Jesus, one whose sacrifice was not sufficient, and another Spirit, a Spirit that does not convict you of idolatry nor lead you into truth.
    Some of us have been brought out of the false religion of rome when we were born again and the Holy Spirit convicted us of idolatry, seemingly this has not happened to you Kurt even after 20 years or so of claiming to be saved.
    I would suggest to you that is because you do not have the Spirit of God and are not saved, that is why you do not have love and esteem for His Word above mans word, you reject Scripture alone in favour of the traditions of men that have throughout history contradicted themselves and changed their minds.
    Be careful Kurt, if the men in the vatican decide that the polish nun miracle is real (Remember that? the one you posted on your facebook?), then you could be worshipping a wafer when they parade it through your town/city.

    dale

  146. Kurt, I DID answer your question. The Bible I read and study from is the same collection of books – the same canon – as the church used in the first couple centuries. SAME ONE!

  147. Glen, then you misunderstood the question, my apologies. I don’t question that from a textual critical approach you have the right canon. what I want to know is on what basis, what source, what context are you sure the books in the canon you have in front of you are the correct ones? I mean when you say it was the canon of the church at the time, was a particular father of the church you were referring to like Ireneaus? What sources, books, quotes, or basis give you assurance that the books you have are the correct books? does that make more sense?

    Dale, I am not sure what dogma exactly your video is about, which is why I asked for the source of the dogmatic teaching you are referring to. There are a lot of priest out there that say a lot of crazy things and I don’t believe every priest and everything every priests says, it has to be in line with dogma. I have never heard of the priest in the video either so I was just asking a question.

    I have heard a lot of scripture shared here Dale, I am just concern about the correct “sense” of the words of scripture and on what authority you have assurance that your “sense” is correct and infallible.

    Here is a quote by a famous catholic that converted 40,000 calvinists back to church that gives me great pause to be sure I know that the “sense” of scripture being shared is truly consistent with Christ,

    Whoever says that Our Lord has us at the mercy of the winds and of the tide, instead of giving us a skillful pilot perfectly at home, such a one says that he wishes our destruction. Let him have placed therein the most excellent compass and the most correct chart in the world, what use are these if no one knows how to gain from them some infallible rule for directing the ship? Of what use is the best of rudders if there is no steersman to move it as the ship’s course requires? But if everyone is allowed to turn it in the direction he thinks good, who sees not that we are lost?
    It is not the Scripture which requires a foreign light or rule, our conclusions, understandings, interpretations, conjectures, additions, and other such workings of man’s brain, which, being unable to be quiet, is ever busied about new inventions. Hilary says (350 AD) (Lib. 2 de Trin. xviii.) “Heresy is in the understanding, not in the Scripture, and the fault is in the meaning, not in the words.” and S. Augustine (In Joan. Tr. xviii, i.): “Heresies arise simply from this, that good Scriptures are ill-understood, and what is ill-understood in them is also rashly and presumptuously given forth.” It is a true Michol’s game; it is to cover a statue, made expressly with the clothes of David (1 Kings xix.) He who looks at it thinks he has seen David, but he is deceived, David is not there. Heresy covers up, in the bed of its brain, the statue of its own opinion in the clothes of Holy Scripture. He who sees this doctrine thinks he has seen the Holy Word of God, but he is mistaken; it is not there. The words are there, but not the meaning. “The Scriptures,” says S. Jerome, ( Adv. Lucif. 28. ) “consist not in the reading but in the understanding:” that is, faith is not in the knowing the words but the sense. And it is here that I think I have thoroughly proved that we have need of another rule for our faith, besides the rule of Holy Scripture. “If the world last long “said Luther once by good hap (Contr. Zwin. et. Oecol)”, “it will be again necessary, on account of the different interpretations of Scripture which now exist, that to preserve the unity of the faith we should receive the Councils and decrees and fly to them for refuge.” He acknowledges that formerly they were received, and that afterwards they will have to be.

    One last question for you dale, especially if you chose to abandon the conversation. If your God has decided before all time that it is his perfect will to send me to hell, do I have a choice? Meaning does God permit me to go to hell, or does he ordain me to go to hell? I believe the former (not for myself but for those that end up there). What do you believe?

    Peace in Christ,
    Kurt
    (ps, I am serious about my last question).

  148. I was planning on writing on the canon for my own blog next week, but have brought it forward to today, in case anyone here is struggling with this. It’s very long to post here, so I’ll merely give the link. The Scriptures are sufficient to guide us on the topic of the canon as well.
    http://mindrenewers.com/2012/03/05/the-canon-of-scripture/

    I have no wish (or time, this week or probably next) to debate the topic either here or there, but thought it may be helpful to some reading this thread.

  149. Jon,
    That was excellent – thanks!

  150. I have to say that in some of the above videos that the person or persons who are speaking against cathlicism have disobeyed the Lord’s command to call no man “Father”. When I see this on Christian web sites where a Christian refers to a catholic priest as Father so and so, I cringe.
    Other then that, you people have done an excellent job of defending the faith once delivered to the saints, especially with that catholic guy.

  151. First of all, greetings in the Lord Jesus to all my fellow Christians. I was a sinner (and still commit sin & fall short of the glory of God) but the Lord is merciful to call us out of our dark & blind past into His marvelous light! I cannot claim to be righteous for I was only given this gift of salvation which I did not deserve at all. So I would forever be grateful to the Lord Jesus for His Death, Burial & Resurrection – His Gospel of salvation as preached by St.Peter in Acts 2:38.

    Anyway, In line with the topic in this thread, I was raised as a catholic and I was a bit religious even when I was a kid as I used to attend mass regularly, prayed the rosary and novenas to many (dead) saints. But the irony is that when I was a kid (and even when I became an adult), I always felt uneasy and a bit scared to “pray” before these images & statues. I dared not to look into the eyes of these images as I felt something eerie or strange that they might move or spring to life… Even when I was a catholic, I did not want to touch these graven images or statues. Although I had been taught that we do not actually worship these lifeless images but these are just tools or inspiration for us when praying to God or the (dead) saints. We’re supposed to only venerate these images and not to worship them, so to speak. But still I knew something was not right about bowing down or kneeling before these images & statues. However as a catholic, I had no choice back then but to accept the teachings or doctrine about veneration of these religious images, and not consider it as idolatry but simply a form of veneration? (Isn’t this what the “real” second commandment is about?:
    “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.” Exodus 20:4-6

    But God was not through with me yet as the Lord kept on knocking on the door of my heart. Each time I would come across those verses in the Bible about idolatry, I felt the conviction but I was still clinging on to the beliefs & traditions of roman catholicism. Since I had been taught to believe that catholicism was started by st.peter (alleged to be the first pope?) then I thought that catholic beliefs & teachings could not be possibly wrong? since it is supposed to be the “true church” handed down from the apostles (st.peter, etc.) themselves? (I later came across a certain historical name – simon magus a.k.a. the real first pope. He was apparently mistaken for simon peter as claimed in the articles about this topic.) I only stayed as a catholic because I was made to believe that it is the real church started by the apostles. But other than this reason, I knew a lot of beliefs & traditions that were contrary to the Word of God that’s why I had reluctantly accepted catholicism.

    But finally one day I attended a Christian fellowship / praise & worship service, which is a full Gospel, Bible believing group of Christians. I heard the preaching about the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the keys of salvation and the good news that “we are saved by the grace of our Lord through our faith, and not by our own good works…” I was baptized in Jesus’ name as I accepted Christ as my Lord & Savior. I then started to delight in reading the Word of God, to attend more Bible studies as I came to know deeper about Jesus as the only Way, Truth and Life.

    Finally, I had been set free from the chains of idolatry as we now worship the Lord in Spirit and in truth. For the Lord’s presence is felt in our spirit and in our heart, if we will seek Him with all our heart and soul, mind and strength. So I praise the Lord and give back all the glory and thanksgiving to the one God we serve, in Jesus’ name. To God be the glory!

  152. Dear Kfilla,
    Thank you for the good works that you are doing here – a good example of the spirit of Catholicism. And thank you also to those who have challenged Kfilla so bravely. With love and prayers. Sincerely, Nik A Morris.

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