While doing some research on a completely different subject, I found a site that was and continues to be overwhelming to the senses. It advertises a new documentary coming out entitled, “It’s a Girl!”
I have never personally met a parent that did not wait with joy to hear those words, or words equally as poignant, “It’s a Boy!” All the parents I have met have been thankful that a safe delivery has been made and they will now begin the transition of raising that little one whether it is a boy or a girl.
This documentary begins with a culture that in many ways I cannot fathom, yet, I should because it is not really that far removed from the culture in which we live here in the West. The first words heard in short trailer for the documentary notes, “Today, India and China eliminate more girls than the number of girls born in America every year!”
One interviewee notes, “But what this is, is an entire system, a social machinery that says, ‘We don’t want females.’”
A distraught couple are shown speaking about the birth of their new baby and the father describing the marks around the little girl’s neck. She had been strangled!
In stark contrast, a short few seconds later, one smiling mother from India is shown and tells the camera while seeming to laugh, “I killed eight girl children!”
To our polite, cultured, civilized Western minds, our souls recoil at such brutality. Where are the police to stop these savage killers? Why doesn’t the government step in to address the wholesale mass murders of approximately 1.5-3 million babies EVERY year?
Why such numbers? Simply because the baby was a girl.
To seek to put this into perspective, a document published a few years ago by the Geneva Centre for the Democratic Control of Armed Forces stated,
The number of the ‘missing’ women, killed for gender-related reasons, is of the same order of magnitude as the estimated 191 million human beings who have lost their lives directly or indirectly as a result of all the conflicts and wars of the 20th century—which was, with two world wars and numerous other murderous conflicts, the most violent period in human history so far.
A sustained demographic ‘deficit’ of 100-200 million women implies that each year 1.5-3 million girls and women are killed through gender related violence. In comparison: each year, some 2.8 million people die of AIDS, 1.27 million of malaria. Or, put in the most horrible terms: violence against women causes every 2-4 years a mountain of corpses equal to the Jewish Holocaust.
WHAT IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE? In our minds, they are brutal savages. They do not deserve to be parents. The bile rises in our throats as we consider the above quote from the Geneva Centre document. Do they not realize the truth of Scripture? Psalm 139:14, “I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvelous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.” Ps. 127:3 continues, “Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.”
Planned Parenthood and several United Nations groups have long sought to provide “equal” treatment of women around the world. They have touted the desire for all women to have the freedom of choice and to be given the power to make decisions for themselves. They continue to remind us that we should have the lofty goals of raising these women out of the dark ages to a life of enlightenment. Have we really empowered them to live a life of great ideals based on these goals?
As a true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, I believe that false religion and lack of biblical knowledge has created a depraved and warped view of women. Only in and because of Christ will people find freedom from bigotry, hatred, and gender discrimination.
This documentary “It’s a girl!” will find many up in arms. It will generate a firestorm of hatred against such brutality. The movie will probably accomplish very little in places like China and India though where it will like the baby girls killed each year never see the light of day. Some will clamor for our government to intervene in some way. Maybe we can withhold foreign aid until they stop all of the senseless killing. What if we rescind their seat on the Human Rights Committee’s in the United Nations until the Chinese and Indian governments step up to the plate and assume the responsibility of saving the lives of these helpless, defenseless little girls that nobody seems to want?
AMERICA, how about if we STOP WITH THE HYPOCRISY!!
Why should our stomachs revolt in horror at this unknown holocaust? Who are we as Americans to try and police the human rights abuses around the world? What gives us the right to throw condemnation on India and China as though we are a self-righteous nation of Christians seeking to ensure that women in their countries have the same benefits as women in America have?
What about us as true believers? Does this not make us weep as we think of all the parents who would love to adopt a little girl into their family, but struggle to do so? Do we not have great concern for the physical, mental, and spiritual health of these women who murder their baby girls year after year?
Yes, I have no doubt that we do weep, and I have no doubt that we have great concern for them and the 1.5-3 million little ones being murdered every year simply because the doctor says, “IT’S A GIRL!”
But, we are hypocrites. Americans are two-faced cowards who refuse to face reality. Since 1973, Americans have killed approximately 50 million babies by means of legalized abortion, more commonly known by God as MURDER! This equates to almost 1.3 million per year!
Excuses here include: “I’m just not ready for a child.” Or, “I want the pleasures of a sexual relationship but not the responsibilities.” Or, “Well, the doctor says it MIGHT be deformed in some way!” The reality is that what women of this country are saying is, “God, You have no right to be the Giver of Life. I want to be, and MUST be, in total control of everything about me including my body!”
Our land is polluted with the blood of innocent victims just as greatly as the lands of China and India. The main difference is that we stand in greater judgment for we have the precious Word of God. Our people have heard and know the truth, yet choose to ignore it. Many of our churches have bought into the idea that women have the freedom to do whatever they wish with their bodies. Pastors no longer preach “Thus says the Lord.” Churches do not practice discipline against those who would allow an abortion to take place. Instead, we have allowed our government to dictate policy to us, and we have also endorsed the idea that there can be exceptions allowed for killing a baby, for example, in the case of rape. So, for the sins of the father, our churches are telling us that God will turn a blind eye while we commit another sin. We are informed that murder is justifiable in such cases!
True believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, it is time that we returned to our knees and asked God for mercy. It is past time that we stand up in defiance at the wholesale bloodshed being perpetrated on 1.3 million boys and girls every year in America. It is time that our churches and pastors return to preaching the entire counsel of God, no matter what it costs. The matter of abortion is NOT a political issue, but a moral issue and therefore a spiritual matter. It is out of the heart that depravity spills forth out of the mouth and in the actions of the body.
This in no way is meant to demean the gravity of the situation in India and China. I have no thoughts that the world will ever read this blogpost, and it is not meant for them anyway. It is for we who know and claim the name of Jesus Christ. We must share the good news of the gospel even with those around us for they are just as savage and pagan as the countries to which we send missionaries.
One final note, God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son into the world. The reason is because of sin. We must learn to love those who sin. We must be willing to share the truth of God’s Word in such a way that they will see the difference Jesus Christ makes in the life. To condemn is easy, but to love is painfully difficult. That woman who killed her eight precious little girls needs to hear about Jesus Christ, just as the woman who lives next door to you here in America and killed her baby through legalized abortion does. Whether they admit it or not, hearts are scarred and only Jesus Christ can bring true healing.
Yes, God’s Word makes it clear that killing baby girls in India or China is MURDER. But, His Word also makes abundantly clear that abortion of any kind and for any reason is also MURDER. May God have mercy on us.
thejunglemissionary
Bill
fourpointer
Manfred
abidingthroughgrace
Chris Hohnholz
Abortion…and murder in all aspects makes me ill. Oh how I wish they would give those girls up for adoption and allow others to give them a good home if they don’t want (or aren’t *allowed*) to have them!!! Yes, yes…they need to hear the gospel and we need to pray that they come to a realization of how precious these children are!
Good to bring this back up, right after the “celebration” of Roe v Wade.
Posted here a while back: http://defendingcontending.com/2011/08/29/the-three-most-dangerous-words/
I don’t think it’s quite as black and white as that. I’m against abortion for the most part – certainly for those who simply don’t want the responsibility or who don’t think they’re ready.
But, if a young girl is raped I think she should be given the choice. You can’t use God as a reason not to abort – because not everyone believes in a God / your God. Atheists for example would not take any religious argument seriously, I know I wouldn’t. Trying to say abortion is wrong because God says so to an atheist is imposing your beliefs on them.
Also – people have varying ideas of when life begins, and so destroying it before they think it’s alive is not murder to them.
Unless you can demonstrate that life begins at a certain point, you can’t demonstrate that abortion before that point is murder.
You be in error, Pete. As my former congressman, Dick Armey discovered: He went to Texas A&M and asked a highly respected biology professor to work backward from birth and document the moment in fetal development where the human stopped being a human. There is no such moment. From the instant the egg is fertilized, the human genome is present. There is no chance anything other than a human being will be born. The form doesn’t determine the make-up or identity. And yes – the bottom line is God is the Author of life, even of those who hate Him and claim He doesn’t exist. And that is THE reason we don’t murder – because our Creator said not to murder those He makes in His image.
hey Pete, have you seen the 180movie? You can watch it free here http://180movie.com/ and it’s only 30 minutes long. It’s an award-winning documentary about some of your points.
Pete, let me ask you in return. At what point would killing the baby no longer be acceptable to your sense of morality?
Would you find it acceptable for a baby to be killed 1 minute AFTER the birth?
Would you find it acceptable for a baby to be killed as it is being born?
Would you find it acceptable for a baby to be killed/aborted 1 minute BEFORE the birth?
What about 10 minutes before?
What about 1 day before the baby is due?
What about 10 days?
At what point exactly does your morality find it to be deemed murder versus “abortion”?
Judges, courts, lawyers, and doctors have deemed that we can legally rip a baby from the only from of life support it has available, hold the baby’s deformed remains up to the world and say, “See, it was NOT viable outside of the womb, therefore, abortion is NOT murder!”
What hypocrisy! By the way, your arguments worked very well for Nazi Germany until they lost the war! It also worked well for the Roman Empire until the Empire collapsed.
Pete: You said, “Also – people have varying ideas of when life begins, and so destroying it before they think it’s alive is not murder to them.
Unless you can demonstrate that life begins at a certain point, you can’t demonstrate that abortion before that point is murder.”
Let’s use your logic for a minute. Assuming that we don’t know when exactly life begins – a false assumption, but let’s play with it for a minute – wouldn’t it be more prudent to err on the side of not killing an innocent person?
As for the exception of rape, I can sympathize with a woman who was done wrong and now gets a reminder for the next nine months of that horrid act. But – and this is the big but here – the baby did nothing wrong. The baby was innocent of the crime. Killing him doesn’t make the woman unraped. Killing him for what his father did is no better than Freddie Krueger’s hunting down the children of Elm Street for their parents’ vigilante actions.
Thanks for what you have posted. I was aghast at what I saw on the trailer but I also thought of all the babies that were murdered in America.
The minute you announce “I’m having a baby!” is when life begins. When was the last time you heard a woman say, ” I’m pregnant with something, but we are still waiting when it becomes human.”
That is a ridiculous argument. Say you are pro abortion, but do not say you don’t know when life begins. When your wife announced she was having a baby, did you tell her she couldn’t possibly know when it was human? What woman announces we are having a…thing? Fetus? Embryo? Fungus? If you and your wife are going to have any more kids, the next time she announces she’s pregnant, say, “Big deal. You don’t even know when this life began. It could be dead now for all you know.” Better yet, say it to a friends wife. Or your sister. Or ask a woman how she even knows she’s pregnant. Are you sure it’s not some dead thing inside of you making you throw up? Have headaches? Gain weight?
I’ve got news for you. Black, white, polka dot or green, that baby was MINE from the first moment I knew I was pregnant. Alien, blob of fetal tissue, whatever, that child was beginning.
You struck a nerve here. Abortion I have a problem with. But I would have more respect for someone who quit using that lame old argument of when life begins.
Ky gal, we believe that life begins at conception! Fearfully and wonderfully made by God. Only He can give life.
Sorry, tongue in cheek doesn’t translate well online. I know that it does, but I was being facetious. Mea culpa.
@Manfred:
Why does there being no chance of anything other than a person being born mean that it is alive at that point? And most atheists in my experience do not claim to hate that which they do not believe in – it’s like saying I hate the tooth fairy – it’s nonsensical.
@thejunglemissionary:
I would not find it acceptable to kill a baby any time during or after birth – or even months before. The only time I would say it is morally acceptable to me, is not too long after conception – and only in extreme circumstances like rape.
@072591:
Good point – well made.
@Manfred and @Ky gal:
The developing baby/foetus/embryo is human, but that doesn’t mean it is alive yet.
@theresa:
Thanks I’ll have a look.
Pete,
It saddens me that you would murder a baby for the sins of the father. Rape is a horrible thing…but the baby is still a life and it didn’t have any part in it. Adoption is always an option. Murder should never be.
Kindly,
Katy
@Katy:
I’m not so sure it’s alive at the early stages.
Oh, good grief. You can have an ultrasound at 6 weeks pregnant and watch the heart beating! Does that make baby alive enough? Or does it have to beat a certain rhythm to mean its alive?
I have a friend who was raped and chose to keep the child that resulted from the rape. She never considered abortion and has been blessed beyond measure because of the precious relationship she has with her child.
What was meant for evil, God meant for good (Gen. 50:20).
Pete – the Bible declares that men who deny God are at war with Him and that they hate Him. That’s why I said atheists hate God – because He said it.
Then an egg is fertilized, it becomes something else – no? That is the early stages of a human being (NOT a replay of Darwin’s theory). Read the descriptions on this page to see how early human development actually takes place: http://www.secondlookproject.org/tslp_fetal.html
I never ceased to amaze at the hypocrisy of the world and non-believers when it comes to the matter of when does life begin. We have laws on the books that protect animals and birds BEFORE they reach the point where they would be able to sustain life outside the egg or their mother’s womb! Yet, even those who claim to believe in evolution and who claim that we are but another species of animal, these people do NOT give (NOR do they want to give) respect and protection to the unborn child.
Why is this? Why are unborn eagles IN THE EGG protected by federal law (for example), but babies in the womb are not?? Why are there laws protecting us from taking animals (like horses or dogs), sedating them, then slicing them open and ripping out the little ones developing inside them – BUT, those laws are NOT applicable to humans?? No, our corrupt, evil, abominable government and court system can pass laws allowing doctors to do this to human women and shred the life of a baby in some places to the 3rd trimester!
I believe the answer is because if we can separate the truth of when life begins from our daily lives, it will allow us the freedom to live how we want without being worried about a Creator God. You see, if we are right based on what the personal views of some doctors and scientists are, then God is nothing but a myth. Nothing would suit the world any better than to continue to think such a thing. We would remain as but animals evolving into a better human species over the next million years.
However, if a baby is fearfully and wonderfully made (evolution being totally and completely impossible to design such a creation), then the Word of God is true. If the Word of God is true, then God is true. If God is true, then man is wrong in their assumptions and will have to pay the penalty for their rank arrogance.
I would say a human is not alive until it has at least developed a brain and a nervous system – which by the way are not fully developed until after the heart starts beating. The heart is only a pump don’t forget.
Try to look at this next question from a non-religious perspective; how can a human be alive if they have no brain and therefore no thought, no nervous system and therefore no feeling?
@Manfred:
I don’t think you grasp that I believe a developing human being is not the same as an alive human being. You do, and I understand that, but I don’t – understand?
@Yvonne:
I’m sure there are plenty of people like the one you’ve mentioned, but there are probably others who regret it, and others who have had an abortion and are happy.
Pete – you will stand before your maker one day understand.
Oh – the purpose of life is NOT for one to be happy. There are people who rape and murder who are happy with their lives. They will be called to account to God on Judgment Day.
Repent and believe on the risen Lord Jesus, Who is the Christ.
Pete, still looking for a reply to my comments as well. There are local, state, and federal laws that protect eagles, horses, and dogs in the egg or in the womb. They are protected BEFORE they get a full brain, they have no thoughts that we are aware of, very little nervous system to speak of, and definitely have no feelings to our knowledge. Why are they protected and this is acceptable, BUT a baby is NOT??
A rape, then a murder (which actually makes up VERY few abortions) – Two wrongs NEVER make a right.
One final point – looking at that link AND using your definition of when a human is alive, that should put them (even in your estimation) as a live human being at no less than 21 days. Therefore, could we assume that you would take a stand against an abortion of any live human after a pregnancy is 3 weeks along??
Pete,
You claim “I would say a human is not alive until it has at least developed a brain and a nervous system” – thankfully, it isn’t up to you. Your opinion is just that, which is man’s ‘wisdom’ based on what he believes to be true. However, the Bible teaches that the human mind is deceitful, full of trickery, sickened with sin {Jer. 17:9}. How can any good thoughts come from such a mind?
That is why the Bible is the only source of truth, regardless of man’s ‘opinion’, which means nothing to the God who created man. As for when is a baby considered ‘human’, Every culture’s view of when human life begins changes as society’s values, moral standards, and knowledge
about the process of embryonic development change. Prior to the 1973 U.S. Supreme Court decision that allowed abortion on demand, developing embryos were considered unborn persons.
The average age of an aborted baby is 9.5 weeks; at four weeks the heart and blood vessels continue to develop. And the lungs, stomach, and liver start to develop. At eight weeks, the baby is now a little over half an inch in size. Eyelids and ears are forming, and the tip of the nose is visible. The arms and legs are well formed. The fingers and toes grow longer and more distinct.
At twelve weeks, the baby measures about 2 inches and starts to make its own movements. The doctor may hear the baby’s heartbeat with special instruments. The sex organs of the baby should start to become clear. All this is in the first three months, and you argue this baby isn’t considered a human life? You fail to understand, at conception babies aren’t fully developed, but that does not mean they aren’t growing and developing. When children grow from toddler stages into young men and women, is that not a growing process as well? Would you consider a toddler a human life, even though that toddler is not fully developed mentally and physically?
There are zero references in the Bible as babies being referred to as fetuses, or anything other than a human being. In your quest to deny God, you will go so far as to deny a tiny human being their right to be called a human being? How sad.
The president says abortion allows women to reach their full potential. A leading abortion rights advocate says abortion is “as American as apple pie”. Those two bookends from the top of our country to the battle lines pretty much frames the attitude of the culture of death.
As every abortion argument for it has been reduced to rubble by logic and science, it has now even come down to the argument that abortion, although evil, is the lesser of two evils since violating a woman’s choice is the greater evil. To that I would ask, since 50% of now universally accepted as human (even by abortion proponents) fetuses are female, how much of a choice is it for them?
Abortion is evil, pure and simple. Every argument for abortion seeks the horizontal acceptance of being right through social acceptance, rather than through the vertical, of God’s law and grace versus what sinful mankind wants.
*smacks forehead
Let’s say a woman finds out she’s pregnant. She wants an ultrasound because she wants to make sure she is not having twins ( I was concerned, ok?) At 4 weeks pregnant, you can have an ultrasound and SEE the heartbeat. Is that alive?
Goodness gracious, can I skip over rules of engagement and name call? I live in a household of men and I know they have thick skulls, but I am having some trouble here. Please Mr. or Ms. Moderator? Just one. It’s not even that bad, honest. (facetious tone)
A good resource to show those who deny the humanness or life of the baby in the womb:
http://www.ehd.org/movies-index.php
The development during weeks 4-6 and 6-8 are especially remarkable as this is the time frame when most women first realize that they are pregnant. Notice the heart is already beating and the brain is already rapidly growing by this time.
@thejunglemissionaty:
I guess they are protected because they are in danger of going extinct, or if not I don’t know. It’s not really comparable anyway – I mean think about it – those laws are about humans destroying non-humans… is there a law about a mother eagle not being able to destroy her eggs?
Let’s turn this argument around – why are you focussing on abortion when there are far worse atrocities going on in the world? Some in the name of religion! For example, Christian mothers in Nigeria beating/torturing/killing their children because they think the children are possessed. Muslim people blowing many innocent people up because they think they are doing what God wants. Catholics in Ireland killing young unarmed soldiers.
Yes abortion (in most cases – my opinion) is morally wrong. But I think any of the above murders are morally worse.
@lyn:
Actually it is up to me. Me and the rest of society – after all we make the laws that dictate whether and when a baby can be aborted. That is exactly why we should take it seriously and treat each case of a wanted abortion individually – and not a black and white yes or no.
We should consider the reasons and implications of aborting/not aborting and the length of time after conception in each case individually, and come to an informed decision without referring to some old copied, translated text written by men. After all, should we make a different decision based on the religion of the mother?
@Manfred:
I will meet my maker one day will I? It’s about as likely as meeting Elvis on a flying unicorn. I, and you, will probably just die instead.
Pete, quite an interesting comment. You said that you “think any of the above murders are morally worse.”
What would give you the ability to make such a moral decision? Why would you even distinguish such a moral distinction? We are not and have not overlooked other atrocities in this depraved world. It is just that this blog happens to be about abortion and the killing of baby girls.
Re: the mother eagle, you are correct in that there are no laws forbidding her from destroying her eggs. But, we are not speaking about a creature with a conscience like we are with humans. Wow, another difference between us and the animal/bird kingdom. We are different. We have a system of morality that is found in EVERY single society and culture in the world. As a side note, this could not have just evolved for it would also be found in the animal or bird kingdom to some degree, but it is not.
As for making a different decision based on the religion of the mother, again we refer to Nazi Germany. The decision they made for Jewish women was based solely on who they were which was ultimately based on their religion.
Again, I ask at what point do YOU believe life begins? We offered several options. Life cannot begin for one baby at 9 months, another at 5 months, another at 5 weeks, another at 21 days, and another at the moment of conception. So, when does it begin? If morals are to be accepted in our society, there has to be a standard to which all are somehow bound. For example, you would not dare say that stealing is wrong but ONLY if you steal more than $50, or $500, or $5,000. Either it is stealing or it is not. You would not say that killing is wrong but ONLY if you kill more than 3 people in your lifetime, or 13, or 30. No, either killing is wrong or it is not. And by what moral standards do you make such a call or distinction?
@thejunglemissionary:
Actually morality is something that we have evolved and is quite easily explainable by evolution. There’s no reason whatsoever to think that moral absolutes exist.
Take a look at this page that refutes your claim on several levels. Do you have any response to the points made?
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB411.html
Also an important point that I think needs mentioning is that morally questionable actions are not necessarily purely motivated by one’s morality. For example – you mention Nazi Germany, who’s actions were clearly immoral to most if not all humans. But there were many other factors that influenced their actions – not just morality.
Is it immoral to kill someone in self defence? Wouldn’t moral absolutes suggest that it would be immoral?
As I’ve mentioned I believe a human becomes alive in the sense that killing them would be murder sometime after the brain and nervous system have been developed. When exactly I do not know.
Your comparison to stealing is flawed… no you would not say it is wrong based on the monetary amount being stolen – but you would say it is wrong based on intent. For example: Someone stealing money because he does not want to work for it, is clearly in the wrong (based on my personal morals – not moral absolutes). Someone who steals money from someone else who does not need it, because they have no other way to get it and they need it to survive, is not morally wrong.
Pete
Pete,
Self defence is not murder.
The height of hypocrisy is that an organization such as Planned Parenthood would claim to advocate for women’s rights when it systematically subjugates the young, poor, and underprivileged in promoting abortion (rather than adoption) as the best option based on economics, etc. The founder of Planned Parenthood, Margaret Sanger, was herself a proponent of eugenics.
Is the commandment “thou shalt not kill” or “thou shalt not murder”?
Pete – the proper interpretation of the Hebrew is “Do not murder”.
Pete,
As Manfred stated the proper meaning is “do not murder” in contradistinction from “kill”. Abortion is murder – murder of the innocent not-yet-born.
Horrifying article, but I comment now because I must give you a HUGE thumbs-up for not only pointing out the horrors of this situation, but in the same breath announcing the forgiveness of sins through Christ’s death on the Cross for those that are guilty of such things. So often in Christian writings the sin is highlighted and the message of grace is withheld. THANK YOU for presenting both law AND gospel in this piece!
For anyone, especially a “Christian” to say that a woman has the right to terminate a baby is ludicrous. You are forgetting/ignoring the simple, yet plain fact that our bodies, reproductive systems and the fruit of those systems do not belong to us. They belong to God. He gives life, it is only His right to take it as well. To decide to end a life like this is to say that you are God and you have the right to extinguish what God lit.
I’ve read all the comments and I guess I’m not understanding why a person would consider that a baby in the womb at any time is not even alive or a non-being until a certain point. That being said begs the question to be asked ‘Why don’t we just kill all these non creatures in the womb then? After all, if they are not really alive and they are just things, what difference would it make?’ The reality is that even those who support the choice of the woman and support abortion KNOW that if every one of these babies were killed in the womb that would eliminate all of mankind. No babies would be left in this world and life for humans would only continue until each one died! So then the next question is, ‘Are they humans or are they not?’ If they are humans then you are murdering a human being, if they are not then why bother and let’s just have it done with. Maybe the babies will magically appear in our arms! Just saying….
An honest answer would be to say, “Yes, they are babies but I am selfish and don’t want to have to deal with my sin so let me kill this human that is in my way.” Of course then you have to deal with the results of being honest and saying you actually murdered a human being but that might be too hard on the conscience so I guess it’s easier to believe that those precious babies are non-beings or not really alive. How does that saying go? “There is none so blind as those who do not want to see…” Still, we, as a nation, will have a lot to answer for when we stand before God in judgment!
I understand that to Christians it would seem like murder, but that is because you believe life begins at conception, because I presume, the bible indicates that God says so.
For people who do not think there’s any reason to believe in such a being, we have to try and take in as much information as possible on the subject, and make an informed opinion, based on our own judgement and morals.
So, when does life begin? All of the arguments I’ve read so far appear to say that because a baby is human immediately after conception, it is alive. This seems ridiculous to me – if I pluck a hair from my head it is still human, but clearly not alive. Also, the sperm and egg are human before conception; they both come from humans; they cannot and will not make anything else. So like I said before, something can be human and not be alive. “Human” and “alive” are 2 completely different things.
So again to the question, when does life begin? Don’t forget we need to define this for many people, not just Christians… people from all kinds of faith, or no faith, or people who are unsure or do not wish to think about such things.
The word “alive” needs to be defined. Capable of thought? Able to move independently and spontaneously? Self-aware? I think something along these lines would be reasonable don’t you?
For all of these a brain and nervous system will need to be developed.
Now do you understand where I’m coming from?
Kind regards,
Pete
Pete,
I’ll have a go at answering your question. I’ll use a seed as an (admittedly inexact) analogy, and for a specific example I’ll use an apple seed. A caveat: I’m no horticulturist or biologist so go easy on me.
An apple seed by itself unplanted is not alive until planted and nourished by the requisite amount of soil, water, etc. Assuming a stable environment with the required amount of nourishment continuing, an apple tree will result. Removing the seed from this environment will result in the death of what would have been an apple tree.
Is the seed an apple tree? Of course not, but the only result from an apple seed nourished as (crudely) explained above is an apple tree.
In a very similar way an individual sperm and individual egg are not yet ‘alive’ until united (conception/fertilization) and subsequently nourished in the womb of the mother as the fertilized egg attaches to the uterine wall. Assuming the conditions remain stable (in the womb) and continued nourishment (from the mother) a human baby will result. Removing the fertilized egg (including its continuing life as a zygote, fetus, etc.) from this environment (womb) will result in death of what would have been a human baby.
At the point of conception is the fertilized egg a fully formed human infant? Of course not, but the only result from a fertilized egg nourished as explained above (again, crudely) is a human baby.
Hi Craig, thanks for your response – I understand. Basically you are saying (roughly speaking) at the point where only continued nourishment is needed, it is alive. You come to this conclusion because if nothing is done – the end result is a living baby, if something is done (abortion) the end result is not a living baby.
To me this demonstrates that the baby is alive at some point between conception and birth. Not at conception.
Using your example of an apple tree – by your own logic, while holding a seed in your hand it is not alive, but as soon as you plant it, it is alive. Would that be an accurate description of your belief?
What I am saying is that it becomes alive at some point between planting it and it sprouting. Same for humans; some point between conception and birth.
Could you define “alive” for me, in a secular manner?
Pete,
Thanks for continuing the discussion. I will clarify. First, apparently there is not universal agreement on just when ‘conception’ occurs within the scientific community. My definition is that conception occurs at fertilization for it is at this point in which the process begins. Prior to this point we have separate eggs and separate sperm which are not viable for a human life in and of themselves.
This is roughly analogous to the apple seed which is only viable for a time as potential to become an apple tree because after a time outside a nourishing environment it will no longer be viable. However, once the still-viable apple seed is put into the ground and nourished, just as the fertilized egg is nourished in the mother’s womb, the conclusion will be an apple tree in the case of the apple seed or a living baby in the case of the fertilized egg. In either case, if at any point you take away the nourishment you’ve aborted the process; on the other hand, if nourishment is continued you will have an apple tree or a living baby.
Pete, let’s refocus this discussion for a moment. In a previous comment, you said that there must be brain activity for it to be considered as a human being. It has already been brought up that this takes places sometime around 21 days after conception. This brings us back to the question which we asked and I don’t think you have responded to yet?
At what point, since you don’t believe life begins at conception, do believe it to be acceptable to kill/abort/murder an infant in the womb? Please give us an acceptable time from your own moral perspectives. Will it be ok to terminate the life at 22 days, 2 months, 5 months?
@thejunglemissionary:
Just to clarify: “there must be brain activity for it to be considered as a [living] human being”. The very important word “living” was missing in your recap of my comments.
I have answered – twice I think! Here’s a snippet to save you searching through…
“As I’ve mentioned I believe a human becomes alive in the sense that killing them would be murder sometime after the brain and nervous system have been developed. When exactly I do not know.”
So if after 22 days the brain and nervous system have not been fully developed I would say for circumstances such as rape – the mother should have the choice to abort at this time.
Does that answer your question?
By the way from my previous response to your post do you understand now how morality *could* have evolved?