56 Comments

Mark Driscoll’s Madness

Ok, this one has pushed me over the edge with Mr. Driscoll. I have had issues with his methods and his personal witness, the way he talks from the pulpit, and so on…but this is a whole new level for me.

This link takes you to the Pyromaniacs Blog where Phil Johnson posted this today…It is regarding Mark Driscoll’s Pornographic Divination. And what is my problem you ask? As if it is not obvious. It’s not that this is just terrible theology and horrendous doctrine regarding discernment and spiritual gifts. But, rather simply that Paul calls Pastor/Teachers/Elders to be above reproach:

1 Timothy 3:1-3:

The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,…

Mr. Driscoll is misfiring on several cylinders here. Look for yourself is he above reproach?:

PORNOGRAPHIC DIVINATION (find article here)

Here is the intro from Phil:

“In a post last week, I pointed out that the preposterous claims, unhinged behavior, and spiritual quackery that are so prominent at the charismatic movement’s lunatic fringe are by no means limited to the outer edges. Goofiness and gullibility are necessary byproducts of a belief system that fails to take seriously the principle of sola Scriptura and its ramifications (i.e., the authority and sufficiency of Scripture).

Here’s a sample of the kind of thing I was referring to: The video below features Mark Driscoll, claiming the Holy Spirit regularly gives him graphic visions showing acts of rape, fornicators in flagrante delicto, and sexual child molesters in the very act.

Please be forewarned, this video and the transcript is somewhat graphic in content and may be offensive to you. It certainly is offensive to me.

Phil Johnson and Team Pyro:

http://teampyro.blogspot.com/

About abidingthroughgrace

Married with kids, work as CEO of Engineering Firm, I am Reformed in faith and Baptistic in flavor, I hold to the 5 Solas, TULIP, and currently studying Systematic and Practical Theology at Reformed Baptist Seminary.

56 comments on “Mark Driscoll’s Madness

  1. Repulsive. How long, oh Lord?!?

    In Christ,
    CD

  2. Yes indeed, pornographic visions and sometimes while he is preaching, and still people think this is ok

  3. Sick….just sick. How does anyone listen to him?? :(

  4. This might be due to his involvement in contemplative spirituality, where the mind is emptied in order to ‘get into the presence of God’. Eastern mystical practices like that are dangerous and could open oneself to demonic influence.

  5. Sadly, many of the same people who would denounce Benny Hinn or Todd Bentley for declaring their “visions” will defend Mark Driscoll for declaring these.

  6. fourpointer – you are so right it’ll be justified because of his popularity and following.

  7. People in the WA area love this pervert. WA has got to be the most God hating state in the union.

    2 Corinthians 11:13-15 KJV (13) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. (14) And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. (15) Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

  8. Many start well, yet end poorly. Mark has aligned himself with the extremes of the Charismatic / Pentecostal Movements. Foolishness at the least; blasphemous at the worst.

  9. The Holy Spirit told me about 2 weeks ago, that this man is about to fall and his sin is going to be exposed. It will scatter his followers… When I shared this with my husband he said “When someone teaches the kind of stuff he does, and speaks the way he does, there is something hidden, some sin they are involved in.” The Lord has been showing me that these false teachers and their followers are getting close to being taken down… lies can only go so far until the one who espouses them is destroyed by them. When one embraces demonic influences, they (the demons) eventually turn and ‘devour’ them.

  10. Mary,

    There’s a certain irony in your comment. For example, by what criteria should a third party validate either your Holy Spirit inspired prophecy/vision of Mark Driscoll’s imminent downfall, or Mark Driscoll’s claims to Holy Spirit inspired visions?

    With respect to your prophecy it’s fairly easy because it’s quite specific; we simply wait about two weeks and we see what happens. But the more important question in my mind is what will your response be if in about two weeks, Mark Driscoll just keeps on keepin’ on? No fall. No sin exposed. Just another day. Business as usual.

    Will you repent of your false prophecy? Will you move the goalposts and say two weeks was symbolic of a different timeframe? Will you modify your prophecy to accomodate a different interpretation, to the effect that something happened to fulfill your prophecy in the spirital realm? Will you update your prophecy to claim the Holy Spirit changed his mind? Will you claim the prophecy was true, but you simply misunderstood it?

    This is one of the many problems of claiming direct, unmediated divine revelation straight from the mind of God.

    In Christ,
    CD

  11. Although I am not a fan of people claiming what the “Holy Spirit” tells them….with all respect CD, Mary said this revelation came to her 2 weeks ago and that it would happen soon. “About to fall” could mean in different time frames. I agree with you, CD, about needing to be careful about what is claimed as prophecy….but just thought maybe you didn’t realize what she had truly said about the two weeks. :)

    Kindly,
    Katy

  12. Thank you Katy for mentioning the facts of what I said concerning the two weeks. It was about 2 weeks ago, not in 2 weeks…

    CD…. my dear brother, that was most ungracious… I realize that you don’t know me from ‘Eve’ ;) and there has been many a ‘prophecy’ touted by many people… I understand this… and I don’t blame you your being sceptical… but my goodness, to place me within the ranks of horrendous false prophets without even reading my post correctly??

    Just so you know… I prayerfully considered even sharing this because of the very real possibility of being ‘eaten alive’ … But I felt led by the Holy Spirit to do so. I believe the Lord would really like to encourage His people, these things are very grievous and I know the Body is suffering because of it. Apostasy and heresy are terrible things… they wound us as believers and throw filth in the face of Christ…

    Anyway, I hope you will think kinder of me in future…

  13. MaryL,

    I did misread the timing of the alleged prophesy, so this relieves the tension of anticipation. Now, did it come true? Did Mark Driscoll “fall” and was his “sin” exposed? If so, what was the fall and what was the exposed sin? The best I can tell it’s business as usual for him, he’s still doing his thing, and like every day he has plenty of critics of his antics, and he has plenty of defenders that say he’s doing the work of the Lord.

    In Him,
    CD

  14. CD… No, you did not misread the ‘timing’ because no timing was given… It has not happened yet, obviously! I don’t know WHEN he is going to be exposed, The Lord did not tell me that… is it because the word ‘soon’ seems to have some kind of limit that you thought I meant immediately or in just a couple weeks from when He told me this? God’s timing is His own… I thought it was very kind of Him to let us know that this particular blasphemy will not just keep going on and on… It encourages me and gives me comfort. There is no specific timing He has given, just ‘soon’ (However and whenever the Lord interprets ‘soon’ to be) just that this man will indeed be brought to account… as will all the others in their own time as well.

    God is gracious to comfort us in these things… Please brother, as for you and I… know that I am a sheep and not a goat… I am with you, not against you…

  15. JOHN MACARTHUR – ROB BELL RICK WARREN MARK DRISCOLL SERMON JAM

  16. Whatever happened to “Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;” (2 Corinthians 10:5). The mind needs to be cleansed every single second. If Driscoll is seeing these visions, he needs to rebuke and cast them all down in Jesus’ name.

  17. MaryL,

    The way I see it we only have a few possible categories for the origin of, and explanation for the claims made by you, and Mark Driscoll:

    i.) Revelation
    or
    ii.) Imagination
    or
    iii.) Demonization/Divination

    **Or possibly some combination of ii.) & iii.)**

    And:
    i.) God put His Holy Words directly into your/Mark Driscoll’s mind
    or
    ii.) You/Mark Driscoll put your/his own words into God’s Holy mouth

    And finally:
    i.) You/Mark Driscoll are true prophets speaking forth the Holy Words of God
    or
    ii.) You/Mark Driscoll are false prophets speaking presumptuously

    Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. – Heb. 1:1-2

    But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die. And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him. – Deut. 18:20-22

    In Christ,
    CD

  18. I once thought Mark Driscoll was for real until I read John Macarthurs article on him. This confirms what pastor Macarthur said.

  19. CD…. I pick #1 Revelation

    Is it so hard for you to believe that God’s Holy Spirit still moves powerfully among us today? That there are genuine believers who have a very close and intimate walk with the Father, that according to His good pleasure He gives the gifts of the Holy Spirit to whom He wills? And some of these gifts include Prophecy, Words of Knowledge and Words of Wisdom? That a tree is indeed ‘known by its fruits’? And we see the fruits of Mr. Driscoll and they are seen clearly in his own actions and speech and the actions and speech of his followers…things that can not be denied…

    And what of my fruits? Do you know me so well that you automatically place me in the ranks of the false prophets and false teachers of the day, simply because you are convinced I am one, without knowing me…and upon what grounds do you make this very serious condemnation? Am I to give a list of all the wonderful and special supernatural accountings in my 30 years as a believer… the workings of the Holy Spirit in my life and the giftings He has given to this very weak vessel?

    You quoted Duet. 18:22…. when this word comes to pass, you will see that it is true and you will also see that the Holy Spirit delights to use weak vessels… you do not need a big name or recognition to be used in wondrous ways by the Lord if He so chooses.

  20. CD & MaryL,

    I think that I’m going to be somewhere between you guys on this one. I won’t condemn MaryL because one sentence in a blog post doesn’t tell us the whole story of what you meant or what you believe regarding gifts of the Spirit, prophecy, and such things.

    CD I understand what you are saying and agree 95%…my only complaint is immediately assuming that MaryL is a charismatic in chaos. I also understand the instinct and reaction because I often have it as well.

    Prophecy in the form of God sending messages to believers for proclamation to humans I believe died with the Apostles and the completion of the Word of God. I have great difficulty with anyone who claims to have the gift of prophecy…so, MaryL, I hope you are not claiming this. Maybe you need to clarify. Prophecy today is simply the proclaiming of the Word of God, which preachers do from the pulpit every Sunday and what we do through reading scripture to others. The Word of God is complete in the Bible and I won’t trust any “word” given to people today as it implies that the Word of God is not complete and perfect (1 cor 14)

    In regard to other spiritual gifts, I’m not a complete cessationalist in that I believe that God has not limited Himself and will work through the Holy Spirit as he sees fit. If that means through the miracle of a healing, of someone understanding the gospel in a language the don’t understand in the mission field, or other such supernatural acts of God through the Holy Spirit for His Glory. God can give us many revelations through the Holy Spirit such as revealing true meaning of scripture, revealing sin in our lives or others, revealing his purpose in our lives, revealing where others have needs, etc.

    I have had the feeling of things on my heart that I felt were a foreshadowing of things to come, or maybe a vision of something that may occur and I have seen a few of them come true…but I don’t put any value in these “feelings” because my heart is deceitfully wicked and misguided. I would never put any value on anything that someone told me regarding my life either for the same reasons…many guesses or feelings can come true, but that doesn’t mean that it is a word of prophecy from God.

    I would suspect that many of us here believe that Mark Driscoll is going to fall and that he has some sort of hidden sin in his life and ministry based on what we see from him. So, I think that we just need some balance in these things and to ensure that it is never the central focus of our ministry.

    faithfully,
    -atg

  21. Mary,

    Mark Driscoll claims the same thing, as do Mary Baker Eddy, Joseph Smith Jr., Oral Roberts, Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, Kenneth Copeland, Ellen White, Charles Taze Russell, the Roman Catholic church, and so on and so forth…

    I’m totally convinced that God’s Holy Spirit moves powerfully among believers today. For example I was born-again and love the Lord God Almighty because of His powerful work in my dead in sins and trespasses soul, and He is working in me both to will and to work for His good pleasure (Phil 2:13). He made me a new creature in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17), delivering and redeeming me from my bondage to sin and death by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, to the praise of His glory alone (Eph. 2:2-9).

    By their reborn nature all true believers in Christ have a close and intimate walk with the Father Who, according to His good pleasure gives the gifts of the Spirit to whom He wills. Where you err is believing that God gives new, fresh, unmediated special revelation from His mind to the minds of men and women today in the form of the specific predictive foretelling of yet future events not contained in the Scriptures. “Prophecy” in our day is “forthtelling” the Word of God; the preaching and teaching of the whole counsel of God as it’s contained in the 66 books of the Holy Bible, not in teaching subjective, relativistic, personal revelations of “new things” God has allegedly placed in our minds.

    In former times God spoke through the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son (Heb. 1:1-2). The apostles of Christ and their close associates penned Scripture whereby the man of God is equipped for every good work, and the indwelling Spirit guides the children of God into all truth. “What is truth?” we might ask along with Pontias Pilate; Jesus answers in John 17:17 “Sanctify them by the truth, your word is truth.”

    Thy Word — not that voice in my head — is Truth.

    I don’t need to know you to see your fruits, I can see your fruits; you arrogantly presume to speak fresh, new, unmediated special revelation directly from the mind of God while pretending humility and weakness. I suggest that you prayerfully reflect on this matter with confession and repentance.

    In Christ,
    CD

  22. atg,

    I didn’t immediately assume “that MaryL is a charismatic chaos.” I have no idea if she’s charismatic. Certainly Driscoll isn’t charismatic. The point of linking to MacArthur’s “Charismatic Chaos” and making reference to it is due to the central common theme of all those who claim to receive unmediated, divine special revelation directly from the mind of God; another authoritative witness in addition to the Scriptures. “Because God told me so” is a pretty impressive claim, thus I’ve tried to deal with the claims at hand in your original post (Driscoll’s Holy Spirit inspired pornographic visions) and MaryL’s claim here.

    In essence they claim the exact same thing, albeit differing in content; God tells/shows them things that He hasn’t ever told/shown anyone else. Private, umediated divine special revelation directly from the mind of God. Driscoll claims the Holy Spirit puts porn videos into his head, and MaryL claims the Holy Spirit told her Driscoll’s sin is going to be exposed and he’s going to fall. Did they Holy Spirit really tell them these things?

    So I’m wondering; are Driscoll and MaryL’s claims more alike or more dissimilar because of their content (one is XXX and one is G rated), or because of their quality; e.g. they both claim the same source (the Holy Spirit) for the same thing (private, unmediated divine special revelation directly from the mind of God)? For the record I covered divine providence in an earlier response to MaryL, and in my recent post linking to Phil Johnson’s article on the same topic. This explains what is often described as impressions, the Lord “laying” something on someone’s heart, etc. The Holy Spirit actually does lead the people of God, but not by giving them play-by-play instructions inside of their heads.

    Although it shouldn’t need to be pointed out, believing that Mark Driscoll is going to fall, and that he has some sort of hidden sin in his life and ministry are quite different than claiming God told you these things. Sorta changes the whole ballgame. In my view professing believers who claim the types of things covered in the original post and this combox ought to be called to critical self-examination in prayer because they are engaged in destructive, dangerous, and – quite frankly – delusional activity.

    In Christ,
    CD

  23. Hello Mary L,
    First of all, thank you for visiting Defcon, you are welcome here.

    I want to address this statement of yours-” The Holy Spirit told me about 2 weeks ago, that this man is about to fall and his sin is going to be exposed. It will scatter his followers”- My intention is not to ridicule, but to try and understand how anyone can claim a new revelation by God when we have all we need in His written word. God has already spoken in His word of the condemnation that awaits false teachers (2 Peter 2:3, Jude 4). So why is what you claim new?

    The gift of prophecy is often misused in our day, especially in charismatic circles. We have no need for prophetic revelations because the canon is closed: God has already spoken from Genesis to Revelation. All we need is found within the 66 books. Please explain how it is you claim God the Spirit has spoken to you.

    Lyn

  24. Abiding Through Grace…. You have shown me grace and kindness in your post and I so appreciate that… You are correct that I am not in some sort of ‘Charismatic Chaos’! I am not in any extreme group or anything of the kind… I am a fellow believer, a sister in the Lord, …. But I’m afraid I do not share your view of ‘everything ending with the Apostles’…. and I know that this is a very strong point of division among many brethren. And I assure you that I do not go around proclaiming ‘prophetic’ stuff all the day long as though I’m out of my mind. Nor does my life revolve around such things but only around Jesus and my personal walk with Him. I do not in any way belong to that terrible list of people that CD is determined to place me in… I realize that you both and I are very strong in our convictions… you believe in all your heart that you are correct in this matter…. I believe that I am correct as well… My personal walk with the Lord has proven this out to me, since neither of you have ever been in my personal walk… there is no way for you to know… for because of At least Cd’s convictions, I belong in that terrible list of false teachers and Godless charlatans.

    I suppose now, CD, you are waiting for me to confess my ‘alleged’ arrogance, my ‘alleged’ pretended humility and weakness, my ‘alleged’ error…. all the while you have ‘shook me like a rag in a dog’s mouth’ and treated me with utter contempt… all for the sake of you being convinced I am in ‘error’… which I am not … but even if I were, if I were some young believer or even a believer that has gone astray as you presume… your treatment of me and your total lack of graciousness to ‘with love and humility, show your brother his error’ … nullifies any correction you could have hoped to present.

    Of course now we know that this has to end… This is your forum and you will post your rebuttals and post your articles proclaiming your convictions and placing me in the camp of the ‘perishing’ because I’m sure you probably think I’m heading to hell… But I assure you… and this is not false humility… I truly do not think the same of you… you are my brother whether you will acknowledge me or not…

    This hurts my heart terribly… this was such a wonderful forum and I really learned a lot of things and was well nourished by many posts… Thanks at least for allowing me to post my answers in this discussion…

    Goodbye my brother… and believe it or not, I will indeed be joining you in heaven..

  25. Can someone point out where I said or even suggested that MaryL is not a believer, and that she’s going to hell? If nothing else your latest comment clearly demonstrates that you’re not a mind-reader at least, MaryL. Evidently calling a professing believer to critical self-examination and prayer and repentance when they pronounce error is viewed as contemptuous instead of loving. If I didn’t care, then I wouldn’t have bothered responding at all. It’s a dangerous sin to put words into God’s mouth that He never spoke.

    In Him,
    CD

  26. Mary,
    I do hope you will continue to visit and comment here at Defcon. When I was first saved, I too thought I could hear the audible voice of God. I was heavily influenced by a co worker who was extremely charismatic. As I studied God’s word and continue to do so, I understand the sufficiency of His written word.
    Would you consider reading this?

  27. MaryL,

    I echo unworthy1′s post here hoping that you’ll stick around. Spiritual gifts are definitely a place where there is serious debate, however, it is not a place where we are to divide the body of Christ…we are all in this together. I hear love and kindness in your words and hope you’ll continue to contribute, disagree, agree, challenge, exhort, and stir one another up.

  28. As far as Driscoll being exposed in the future for some hidden sin, one has to wonder what difference that would make since Driscoll is now, and has been living in open, overt, unrepentant sin (blasphemy, etc.) since the beginning of his “Reformission” more than a dozen years ago, and all his followers seem quite pleased with him regardless.

    As far as Driscoll’s Santa-like claims (“he sees you…he knows when you’ve been bad or good…”), that’s not surprising, being consistent with his long-term mystical basis of his “spirituality”. Indeed his initial “revelation from God” way back in the beginning, as he has himself recounted numerous times, was that God spoke audibly to him and told him to “marry Grace, preach the Bible, plant churches and train men”. So he started a church (that became “Mars Hill”) and “taught the Bible”, by his own admission before he even knew much about the Bible. In placing himself in the position of an elder, and pastor, as a mere novice, (directly contrary to the teaching of Scripture) because “God told him to”, displays that his spiritual authority has not been God’s word, but the words in his own head (which have NOT been in harmony with God’s Word). The rest has been a tragic history of what can only be described as “Driscollism”, since his teachings have been no more than a hodge podge mixture of his own philosophies, wrapped and woven skillfully with Bible verses, in the end presenting a different jesus, a different god, and a different gospel than what the Scriptures truly describe.

    As Coram Deo has ably pointed out, the danger of extra-biblical “revelation” cannot be over-emphasized. Mark Driscoll is a case in point.

  29. There’s one question about MaryL’s revelation that no one has asked, and that’s “Why?”
    Why has the infinite Creator of all the universe chosen to reveal to MaryL in Anytown, USA His intentions regarding Driscoll? Is it because MaryL is supposed to do something about this knowledge, or is He just letting her know?

  30. Pilgrim,

    A related question is why isn’t all this fresh new revelation being inscripturated for the study and edification of the people of God?

    The words of the LORD are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times. – Psalm 12:6
    All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. – 2 Tim. 3:16-17
    But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” – Matt. 4:4

    God’s people are to unswervingly bow before His Word, and commit themselves to the diligent study of it to show themselves approved. Thus it’s axiomatic truth that the church needs to study these fresh, new Holy Spirit inspired prophecies and add them to the canon of sacred Scripture.

    Yet it’s patently beyond absurd to even consider such a course of action, thus we know such claims to inspiration are utter foolishness.

    Presumably even Driscoll in his most fevered high-noon fantasy would never claim that his visions should be added to the Holy Bible as the cultists before him have claimed, yet instead of being a redeeming quality this omission only serves to further prove his irrationality, because at least the cultists were following their demon-inspired claims to their logical conclusions.

    Driscoll’s built-in defense is “But I’m not 100% right all the time”…well guess what? That’s the Biblical definition of a false prophet! Thanks for making our job of discernment so easy, Mark!

    In Him,
    CD

  31. C.D.:

    The “I’m not right 100% all the time” is that disclaimer that says “I don’t claim to be a prophet in the Biblical sense, but I’ve been placed here by God as your pastor and you still need to listen up”. He’s kept himself very approachable by showing such dichotomy, and can effectively pontificate his philosophies to his followers without sounding like he’s pontificating.

    But the bigger concern is Driscoll’s doctrine of “Sola Scriptura, but not Solo Scriptura” (notice the reference to alternate form/s of Scripture in the phrase). In other words, God’s Word is the highest authority, but not the ONLY authority in spiritual matters. Sound familiar (a la R. C. Majesterium)? Any competing “authority”, however “less significant” one may insist it is, is nevertheless in reality an attack on the all-sufficiency of God’s Word.

    To alleviate God’s Word from getting in the way of such alternate authority, and to ascribe legitimacy to it, one must either:

    1) place it in a position of practical equality with God’s Word, or
    2) ascribe God’s Word to the realm of the unknowable, far-above-our-heads-to-understand realm, and thus operate in a realm we are able to understand.

    In the case of #1, one simply redefines Scripture to accommodate and support it. To practically make this work, one does whatever deconstruction to the traditional understanding/interpretation of Scripture that one can safely get away with, in order to reconstruct it to support one’s philosophies thus rendering them authoritative.

    In the case of #2, one offers one’s interpretation of God’s Word (which is presented as far beyond the average person’s ability to understand), effectively redefining God’s Word as one sees fit in order to conform it to one’s own philosophies. One then of course calls this “contextualizing” God’s Word for today (or a given situation). Thus his followers in dutiful allegiance to their “Pastor” (submitting to him as unto the Lord, as he’s already “shown” them from the Scriptures is their Christian duty), see the same Scriptures we see, yet reinterpreted according to his interpretation. Which is why it is so difficult to reason with them from the Scriptures, because “who can really know the mind of the infinite God? I’ll stick with my Pastor’s interpretation”.

    Classic cultic practice either way. And it all begins by challenging, casting doubt, or attacking the supreme authority and sufficiency of God’s Word the Holy Bible.

  32. I believe that because there is so much false teaching today, that the gift of teaching passed with the apostles, and all those who sit under the teaching of a pastor are being misguided by the spirits of dead reformers… yes I am joking, but you get the idea. That thinking is often used when talking about other gifts, but I never hear it applied to teaching.

    It is confusing to hear those who support the unbiblical position of the reformed senior pastor (pastoring in a roman catholic modeled religious institution) to then claim that true biblical gifts no longer exist. Sola scripture my foot. I saw one straw man comment that compared anyone who moves in the gifts of the Spirit is doing the same thing as the roman catholic church. I could just as easily say that anyone who picks and chooses what part of the NT apply today (ie gifts) are no different than the typical cult.

    Love my reformed brethren, doctrines of grace, and this site, but I would really tone down the sola scripture claims. Go on and stereotype me, blast me, but I have said nothing unbiblical here (sola scripture). I still love all the true brethren here in Christ anyway.

    BTW – my post has nothing to do with shameful pastor porn or the alleged prophetic knowledge that the poster has about his ministry. Just a general observation.

    Jim

  33. Jim,

    What “true biblical gifts” are you referring to, and what do you mean when say someone “moves in the gifts of the Spirit”? I’m trying to clarify because you closed by indicating that your comment has nothing to do with the actual subject of this post, and the subsequent comment thread, which deals with claims of fresh, new, unmediated, divinely inspired revelation directly from the mind of God to men. Given that caveat it seems like you’re in agreement with the post and comments thread, yet you’re still protesting about something. As an aside, there are few comments I can think of that would cause me take anyone less seriously than to demand that we “tone down the sola scripture claims”, so I’m not overly optimistic about the outcome of this discussion based on its starting point.

    In Christ,
    CD

  34. A quote from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessationism_versus_Continuationism

    ” For principled Cessationists, who reject Continuationism by appealing to the principle of Sola Scriptura, the main issue is the logical relation between Sola Scriptura and the Continuationist thesis. They contend that Charismatic gifts would represent a second infallible source of authority for the Church, and we therefore cannot consistently maintain Sola Scriptura. ”
    unquote
    .
    .
    .

    The problem with this is that it elevates every prophetic utterance spoken BEFORE the Canon was completed as being equal to the Canon, as the inspired Word of God, which would be really silly.

    THAT is what they are saying, and it’s absurd.

    There’s no way in the world that we can glean from Paul’s teaching that he thought that every gift of the Spirit in operation at the time in the Churches was equal in authority to Scripture, THAT is what the Cessationists are implying by saying after the Canon there could be no more gifts bcos it would violate Sola Scriptura.

    So, after Paul wrote to Corinth concerning spiritual gifts, they could no longer use them bcos Paul had given them the Scripture, and therefore using the gifts would undermine the authority of Paul’s letters to them? Were they violating Sola Scriptura by continuing to use gifts AFTER they had received the Scriptures from Paul? No.

    Why did God have Paul write extensively on the proper use of gifts if He was going to ban them just a few years later?

    Did Paul know that the gifts he was teaching on would cease shortly after? If he did, why didn’t he say so?

    That large portions of the NT Canon have no relevance to the entire Church age?

    So much Scripture is irrelevant to us today, BUT we have Sola Scriptura?

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  35. Hi Ian,

    What gifts are you referring to? The subject post and this entire thread have discussed one very specific topic, that topic being claims of fresh, new, unmediated, divinely inspired revelation directly from the mind of God to men. Is this the “absurdity” you’re complaining about? Please clarify.

    In Christ,
    CD

  36. If a “gift” is the authentic thing then it will be used according to what Paul lays out in 1Corinthians14. If the “gift” is not used in that way then it is not the authentic gift. Paul says it himself that the person using a “gift” that does not follow his commands for usage is to be ignored. Which leads me to believe that what I have seen in the pent/chars movement is not the authentic gifts because none of them are ever used in worship in the manner that Paul lays out.

    On a side note. I have heard a lot, and I mean a lot, of “thus sayeth the Lord” statements or “messages” in church. Those messages were always vague and could cover a whole range of things. Several of them would have gotten the speaker stoned in Old Testament times. Most of them were always in King James language. I think that is because most of the people I was around would only read the KJV. Since the KJV is the only God approved Bible since the Apostles ; ).

  37. From my blog:

    Here is a recent thread on the same subject concerning the voice of God:

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/2011/08/15/what-is-being-led-and-taught-by-the-holy-spirit/

    It is very hard for us to have confidence that a Christian is filled with the Holy Spirit if they think that hearing Jesus’ voice is a foreign concept, and they are solely left to their own intellect, trying to apply Bible principles alone. That is how unsaved cultural Christians operate.

    It’s also hard to believe Christians are FILLED with the Holy Spirit when they come up with hair-brained reasonings, tortured logic, and scripture twisting to establish Cessationism.

    Yet, also hard to believe ones are Spirit-filled when gifts are in operation but there is little Christian character, genuine love, or love for the truth of Scripture.

    ……………………………………………………………………………

    There are times when i think it would be more convenient to become a Cessationist, especially consdering how much is false today, and that the final delusion concerning the “man of sin”, “the beast” , will be by great signs and wonders.

    Much of the signs and wonders movement in the earth is conditioning and preparing the way for the last and final delusion.

    However, a doctrine of convenience indicates a lack of the fear of God.

    …………………………………………………………..

    It would have been so easy for the LORD Jesus to warn us accordingly: “I am going to cease the gifts of the Spirit, and that is how you will know false prophets, by the fact that they are doing miracles when I have ceased the gifts.”

    It would have been so easy for the LORD to warn us on these lines, if that were the truth.

    But we’re not going to get out of it that easy. We’re gonna have to use our brain.

    We are going to have to discern false prophets BY THEIR MESSAGE AND LIFESTYLE and not by the fact that they do miracles or healings.

    The Cessationist stance, among other things, is dangerously simplistic and naive.

    It is dangerous (and evil) bcos it concludes that EVEN WHEN a man has Biblical teaching, and the doctrine of Christ, and the fruit of the Spirit, that if anything supernatural happens thru his prayers, then that Godly man MUST be from satan, bcos God is not doing anything supernatural today.

    On that basis i would say Cessationism is a doctrine of demons due to the damage it can cause.

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  38. I’ll simply note in passing that your comment alludes to those who don’t agree with your views on the gifts as i.) possibly (probably?) “unsaved cultural Christians”; ii.) as being guilty of “hair-brained reasonings, tortured logic, and scripture twisting”; iii.) as demonstrating “little Christian character, genuine love, or love for the truth of Scripture”; as “dangerously simplistic and naive”; as “dangerous (and evil)”; and finally, “i would say Cessationism is a doctrine of demons due to the damage it can cause.”

    LOL! Well, I’m sure glad to see that “operating in the gifts” has produced such a bounty of Christ-like character, genuine love, humility, and graciousness in your heart!

    But back to the point, my prior question was very simple. Can you answer it without link trolling to your blog?

    In Christ,
    CD

  39. Reply to CD:

    “What “true biblical gifts” are you referring to, and what do you mean when say someone “moves in the gifts of the Spirit”? I’m trying to clarify because you closed by indicating that your comment has nothing to do with the actual subject of this post, and the subsequent comment thread, which deals with claims of fresh, new, unmediated, divinely inspired revelation directly from the mind of God to men”

    That is a good starting point brother. Of course there is no new fresh revelation about the nature of God, Christ, salvation, etc. However there are spiritual gifts given to the church as shown throughout the New Testament and, being strictly biblical, they include the prophesying of future events such as a coming famine. Here is my response to a similar thread on a reformed friend’s blog that I made a while ago, it is very thorough, and I do not believe you can biblically refute it. I hope it is not a problem posting the link, it is another reformed blog that you would probably agree with 100%, and not my own blog, so I have no agenda in linking to it besides that I was pretty thorough in answering this question. I could copy-paste the text, but that would be really long. Forgive me if you would have rather me done that.
    http://thereformedtraveler.wordpress.com/2011/03/18/the-lord-told-me-warnings-of-fresh-revelation/#comment-1070

    “Given that caveat it seems like you’re in agreement with the post and comments thread, yet you’re still protesting about something.”

    I am protesting your original comment to Mary, where you said “There’s a certain irony in your comment. For example, by what criteria should a third party validate either your Holy Spirit inspired prophecy”. Again, I am not sticking up for pastor porn grand delusions, or even Mary’s alleged prophetic word. I am sticking up for the word of God though, that clearly shows God giving prophetic (future events) to new Testaments believers. Imagine if I said to someone who was bringing correction to a false teaching “There is quite an irony in trying to use teaching to correct false teaching”. That is my point, false teaching does not equate to no true teaching. False prophesying does not equate to no true prophesying either. That is one logical fallacy I see propped up often among reformed brethren, charismatic chaos = no true healings, prophesy, tongues, etc. That is my main protest, the baby getting thrown out with the bath water for lack of better term. In this case though, the baby is the Holy Spirit.

    You also asked how a third party would validate her alleged prophetic word then went on to say “This is one of the many problems of claiming direct, unmediated divine revelation straight from the mind of God.” I think these points you brought up are very good points indeed. Paul told the Church in Cornith that the spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets. Of course if anything does not line up with the word of God then you can immediately dismiss it (to the word and to the testimony) just as you would if it were a word of teaching being given.

    “As an aside, there are few comments I can think of that would cause me take anyone less seriously than to demand that we “tone down the sola scripture claims”, so I’m not overly optimistic about the outcome of this discussion based on its starting point.”

    In the same way, I have a hard time taking anyone seriously who support the unbiblical reformed senior pastor position that is borrowed from the Roman Catholic church, then on top of that claims that the clear word of God describing the gifts operating in the local church no longer apply. To make void the word of God in how the Church operates and put in place the traditions of the reformers while claiming “the word of God alone” is quite lacking in many ways. I will show you charity though, as I do my close and personal reformed brethren that I fellowship with and not jump to uncharitable conclusions. I hope you can have the patience to do the same with me. If I were to say anything unbiblical that would be one thing, but please don’t dismiss because I question a seemingly contradictory catch phrase from the reformation. Going back to the topic, the reason I said to tone down on sola scripture is not because I think that the value of the word of God should not be upheld, but because most reformed brethren do not uphold the word of God. They claim they do, but they are leavened with the doctrines of men, which teach certain portions of the New Testament word of God no longer apply. I just think “sola tradition” (and that from Rome) and “sola pastor” would be more honest then “sola scripture”. Anyone who picks and chooses what parts of the New Testament no longer apply should not have any claim to “sola scripture”, it is contradictory. I know I just basically said the same thing over and over in this last paragraph, but I want to be clear without writing a treatise.
    Brother, if you think I am being unbiblical and handling the word of God incorrectly please show me from the word of God and not the words of a dead reformer. To me it appears that reformed cessationists are the ones playing games with the word of God though by claiming some of it no longer applies. This is only my opinion (not new revelation) but I believe many cessationists would have rejected the gifts and miraculous workings of the Spirit even if they lived in 50ad. I look forward to hearing back from you if you have the time.
    -Jim

  40. Jim,

    I read your comment above and at the blog you linked. With respect to the topic under discussion it appears to me that you’re basically saying the same thing I’ve already said above, so I’m still left scratching my head about your complaint. In the linked combox you said:

    ” When I talk of speaking prophetically, it is not with a thus sayeth the Lord (unless scripture was just quoted), but with a special word needed to be heard by the listener at the specific time that it is spoken by the providence of God though His servant.”

    I don’t deny God’s providential work in the lives of His people, in fact I specifically spelled that out to at least two different interlocutors, provided a link, and did a separate post on the topic. God is sovereign and works all things according to the counsel of His will, to the praise of His glory which can certainly include a timely word of encouragement, exhortation, edification, or rebuke. The only substantial difference I can see between the position you’re staking out on the so-called prophetic gifting (based on your definition above and comments at the linked blog) is that you’re either in the “absolutely” or “maybe” category (you seemed more certain in your comment above than in the linked combox) on someone foretelling a yet-future event today based on claims of fresh, new, unmediated, divinely inspired revelation directly from the mind of God whereas I’m much less optimistic about that prospect.

    “Of course if anything does not line up with the word of God then you can immediately dismiss it (to the word and to the testimony) just as you would if it were a word of teaching being given.” Bingo! And if anyone foretelling a yet future event by revelation from God can show me where the Bible says what they’re claiming is true, then all they’ll receive from me is a hearty, “Amen, brother!”

    “Jesus is coming back to rule and reign!” “Amen, brother!”

    “The Lord is going to re-make the heavens and earth into a place wherein righteousness dwells and the saints of God will live in His glorious presence for all eternity!” “Amen, brother!”

    “The Lord told me that Bill Gates is the anti-christ, and that he will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem beginning early next year!” …”Come again?”

    In Christ,
    CD

  41. When people start using the gifts in church how Paul commands them to be used, I might start to think that what is seen today is the genuine. It would also help that it the people in the pent/chars movements didn’t teach that Jesus is a weakling that can’t hold on to those that are His. I have a hard time believing that God would validate their ministries with sign gifts, when they teach that a truly regenerate believer can lose the peace they have with God, sealing of the Spirit, God working in them, Spiritual birth, and etc. If a believer can lose their salvation then Jesus is a liar and or a failure. Not a good thing to be calling Him.
    To quote Dan Phillips; “The very fact that “continuationists” acknowledge the need to make their case to Christians by argument is, itself, a devastating and sufficient refutation of the position.”

  42. CD – I will re-read all of your comments in full to see where I misread you.

    Shane- you have said more then once something similar to this “When people start using the gifts in church how Paul commands them to be used, I might start to think that what is seen today is the genuine.”

    I dont think anyone here is asking you to think what is seen today is genuine, rather that tounges, prophesy, words of wisdom, healings, etc still exist DESPITE what nonsense you see today trying to pass as being genuine. I am curious if you hold teaching to the same standard though. Do you sit in a pew and listen to the man made position of senior pastor (ok roman catholic made position) “teach” in an unbiblcal sunday service? That is clearly not what Paul teaches should take place at a meeting, so do you reject teaching also as it is usually not done today in a new testament manner?

    “The very fact that “continuationists” acknowledge the need to make their case to Christians by argument is, itself, a devastating and sufficient refutation of the position.”

    This is an outrageous statement. I only need to read the word of God and believe it. One needs to read the words of dead reformers and play hermeneutical gymnastics to come up with the gifts ceasing. I know many true brethren that disagree with me… but all I have to do is open Romans 12:3-8, the middle chapters of 1 Corinthians or Ephesians 4 and read them. It is not I who has to then start jumping through hoops to show how those scriptures ‘no longer apply’.

    I hope you will take an honest look at your attitude towards these things and at the word of God. You have also presented the idea that all those who believe in or operate in the gifts do not hold to the doctrines of grace. That is not true either brother. Even so, I will agree with spurgeon that we have true brethren that have terrible understanding of Gods sovereignty. If God chooses to work through them despite their fault in this area, that is no different then Him choosing to work through true brethren in the often spiritually dead reformed churches.

    -Jim

  43. Jim,

    I’m not sure why you feel the need to resort to well poisoning tactics by taking so many gratuitous swipes at the sorts of churches you personally dislike, but it doesn’t serve to further your argument, it just comes across as graceless and sad. But given your rather strident comments about the subject of (e.g. “Roman Catholic influenced sitting in a pew and listening to a pastor”, “unbiblical Sunday service”, etc.) what sort of believer’s fellowship do you associate yourself with?

    In Him,
    CD

  44. CD-
    OK, we differ on prophesy of future events. Sorry for implying things to you that, though are often true among the reformed crowd, are not true of you. Also, as far as my apparent uncertainty in support of future event prophecy, it is not because I doubt it, or question that the Lord still moves the same today as He did in 50ad. We both know that some of the worse travesties that have taken place in recent “Christian” history have been based on false manifestations of the Spirit. I would not be quick to accept such a prophetic word as coming from God because of the day we live in, but I would not outright dismiss it as I see no case in the word of God to do so.

    So then, to use your examples, what about this…
    “The Lord told me that Bill Gates is the anti-christ, and that he will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem beginning early next year!” …”Come again?”

    The Lord told us there is famine coming all over the world (Acts 11:27) … what if brothers who bare good fruit, are sound in the doctrines of grace, etc, come and prophesy like this. What would have made you accept that word if you were alive then but immediately reject it if it came to you now?

    Did God reveal this prophetic foretelling in the cannon to then prove the very opposite is true, that prophetic foretelling is no longer given in such a manner today? Beyond that, there were clearly both teachers and prophets (distinct) in the New Testament churches. What can you see in scripture is the difference between the two?

    Brother, one last thing, you said Mary was arrogant for claiming to hear directly from the Lord. There were many countless saints (old and new) who were not arrogant for claiming this. I know someone who seemingly refuses to obey the clear written word of God then claims to get “words from the Lord”. I agree there is great pride in that and I do not give much of a hearing to that, but again, to make this your default position doesn’t appear to be in-line with scripture.

    -Jim

  45. CD-

    Sorry if you see my remarks as less then graceful. I dont think there is a cookie cutter church model, but I do believe in general there are a plurality of elders, and the body operating as a body, with songs, words of teaching, prophesy, mutual edification, rather then being stunted in pews. Probably somewhere short of the house church movement where there is no structure, elders, etc, but definately in that direction. Most of my early years as a believer were spent meeting in homes, breaking bread, and preaching in the ghettos of Detroit to gang members. I have sat in a pew too for a few years. When I read the word of God I see one of those seasons closely aligning itself to normal NT Church pratice much more then the other.

    The roman catholic model is fact though, luther took the puplit and false clergy-laity divide with him. Thankful for much truth that came from the reformation, but it is not my idol as it is some (in no way applying this to you). This actually all ties in to what God has ordained in the local Churches. I believe the early Church (before constantine) is what God ordained, as seen in scripture. One man standing behind a puplit, and the rest sitting in pews is not it.

    I am very passionate about this, I dont think it is poisoning the well though. I think the roman catholic practices in the reformed churches often go hand in hand with the whole gifts ceasing ideas. I will admitt that the reformed churches probably have more true saints in them then others, so please dont read me completely wrong. I do long to see God glorified through new testament christianity, and true saints to be loosed from left over traditions of rome. I really dont intend this to be a swipe, or atleast not a pointless one. I know we probably strongly differ here, based on your comments on family integrated worship threads, but I think the books of acts and early church is normal christianity that is both descriptive and prescirptive. Forgive my tone, but the words are not just thrown in like “aha you’re all abunch of secret papists”. They are related to the subject even if I have been poor in communicating that.

    -Jim

  46. ““The very fact that “continuationists” acknowledge the need to make their case to Christians by argument is, itself, a devastating and sufficient refutation of the position.”

    This is an outrageous statement.”

    I don’t think it is an outrageous statement. If the true gifts were operating through someone today as they were way back when, then there would be no need to argue. All true believers would accept it as true. I have been through the spectrum of churches that practice the “gifts”. I have seen and experienced some things that I can’t explain. Though a moment of clairvoyance does not mean something came from God nor does it make one a prophet or apostle.

    I think of Mark Driscoll’s pornographic visions along the same line as women being “slain in the spirit” and exposing themselves when they hit the floor because their skirt or dress flew up. I find it hard to believe that God would place anything in someones mind or cause a person to do something that would cause lust. Unless maybe it was some type of judgment.

    Paul said that if anyone doesn’t regard what he is saying about using the gifts then that person is to be ignored. Makes me want to ignore everyone I have ever known in the pent/char movements. None of them used the gifts as Paul outlined.

    But I guess since I attend a wanna be Roman Catholic church it doesn’t really matter what I believe. You are right and I am wrong fleebaby. ; )

  47. Hearken, my Cessationist brothers, and let’s reason together from the Bible:

    “I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than you all: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.”
    (1Cor 14:18-19)
    .
    .
    .

    So, Paul spoke in tongues, in private, more than anyone. We take it from his statement here that he prefered not to speak in tongues in the Assembly.

    This means the speaking in tongues he is referring to here is private prayer. Not a tongue with an interpretation in the Assembly.

    Cessationists are saying that such private prayer is not “necessary” or “normative” today.

    But if this type of prayer is not needed today, in the Kingdom of God, then it was never needed, and Paul was deluded.

    Then, Paul says to, “not forbid speaking in tongues”.

    Therefore, if you forbid it, you do not hold to Sola Scriptura, but you place more authority on extra-Biblical teachings.

    So, bottom-line, if Paul came back today, John MacArthur probably wouldnt shake his hand, when he found out that Paul prays in tongues more than anyone.

    Mac would probably try and convince Paul that praying in tongues was only needed back then, but not today.

    http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/

  48. What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God. Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.
    As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
    Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But all things should be done decently and in order.
    (1 Corinthians 14:26-40 ESV)

    Paul lays out how the gifts are to be used in worship in 1 Corinthians 14. The true gifts would be used in worship how Paul prescribes which is actually a command from the one giving the gifts. Paul says that if the gifts are not used how he says to use them in a worship service then that person is to be ignored. Thus that person is not using the genuine gift. So if anyone wants to say that it okay for everyone in the church to “speak in tongues” at once then they are in direct disobedience to God. That would seem to invalidate whatever “gift” those people are claiming to have.

    “Therefore, if you forbid it, you do not hold to Sola Scriptura, but you place more authority on extra-Biblical teachings.”
    Really Ian if you are saying that it is okay for people to practice using gifts in a worship service contrary to the way that Paul has prescribed then it is you that are leaning on extra-Biblical teachings.

    During my whole time in the pent/chars movement I have never seen the gifts used in the manner that Paul lays out.

    “So, bottom-line, if Paul came back today, John MacArthur probably wouldnt shake his hand, when he found out that Paul prays in tongues more than anyone.”
    Come on now Ian you know that is not true. You are just being silly.

  49. Ian,

    The topic of this thread and combox discussion is the claim by Mark Driscoll (and others) that they receive fresh, new, unmediated, divinely inspired revelation directly from the mind of God. If you have something to say about that, then speak up, otherwise you can beat your drum at your own blog.

    In Christ,
    CD

  50. shane – despite your fleebaby comment, I actually agree with you on the sad state of the pentacostal and so called charismatic churches. I just dont use my subjective experiences with such groups as a reason to deny the word of God. For instance, slain in the Spirit is unbiblical – it is not found in the word of God, it is utter foolishness. However prophesy and tounges are found in the word of God, and in the New Testmanet Church to be exact, so i believe it. I believe the word of God, not subjective experiences or doctrinal traditions. That was my whole point all along, I think my belief is actually based on scripture alone, more than the reformed cessationists is.

    If I can simplify it, I say the word of God alone means this:

    Believe everything written for the Church in the new covenant as clearly laid out in scripture. This includes accepting that brethren may speak in tongues and prophesy (though many certainly do this falsely). Such must not contradict the word of God, directly, or in its general whole council, and must be done for edification, and in an orderly manner as Paul spells out (you have brought up this point several times). These are just some requirements, strict requirements though, but as laid out in the word of God.

    The opposing view is this:

    Only believe the letters written in the word of God, nothing like a future prophesy (ie coming famine) given to brethren directly from the Holy Spirit. Although the word of God shows that God operates in the Church like this, it was only for a season.

    I think the opposing view is contradictory, kind of like the reformers got a new revelation that certain parts of the word of God no longer apply :0)

    My last comment will be this. I believe, that in light of the questionable and seemingly contradicting theology of the cessationists, they should not immediately claim that any one prophesying is arrogant, deluded, etc and use sola scripture as their defense. It is just not honest. I apologize to you Shane if you took my roman catholic comments as a personal attack.
    -Jim

  51. Jim,

    With God all things are possible, so I suppose it’s certainly possible that the Holy Spirit would give someone a message today of an impending famine, for example, just as it’s possible that He may choose to make a donkey speak, but we don’t expect such things to be normative.

    It seems to me that if one holds that “prophecy” (in the OT/NT function) continues today in the same manner and function as in the Scriptures, then it’s actually those who make such claims that hold to questionable, contradictory theology. Why? Because they set themselves upon the horns of quite a dilemma. The Scriptures testify that “prophecy” of the OT/NT variety is solely produced by the Holy Spirit (2 Pet. 1:20-21), and we know that the Holy Spirit’s primary role in the church age is to point to and glorify Christ (John 16:14) by applying His saving work and Word to His people. We also know that in the former times God spoke by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son (Heb. 1:1-2) Who is Truth embodied, the Word made flesh (John 1:1); and that the Holy Bible testifies of Him, being the divinely inspired, infallible, plenary, inscripturated Word of God.

    Thus it’s manifest that those who hold that the Holy Spirit is still today giving authoritative, fresh, new, unmediated, divinely inspired revelation directly from the mind of God to men a la the OT and NT prophets must inevitably find themselves in the awkward position of denying that the Bible alone is a sufficient revelation from God to His people. God has more to say. He’s still telling us new things. Giving us Bible supplements. In this case at best, the canon of Scripture is only partially (or perhaps mostly) closed, but it’s still sort of leaky. On the other hand, if alternatively, if the “prophecy” of today is less than authoritative, fresh, new, unmediated, divinely inspired revelation directly from the mind of God to men a la the OT and NT prophets, then whatever we want to call this manifestation it isn’t Biblical “prophecy”, but something else. In this case the “something else” is representative of “something” other than the prophecy proper we find in the Bible, thus appeals to Scripture for support of this “something else” as being prophecy proper are found to be erroneous, misguided, and mistaken at best. And if it is claimed to be authoritative, fresh, new, unmediated, divinely inspired revelation directly from the mind of God to men a la the OT and NT prophets then the canon isn’t closed, and we need to be writing the stuff down and adding books to the Bible (or collecting the sayings in an equally authoritative new holy book as the Mormons did) for the study and obedience of the church because:

    The words of the LORD are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times. – Psalm 12:6
    All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. – 2 Tim. 3:16-17
    But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” – Matt. 4:4

    God’s people are to unswervingly bow before His Word, and commit themselves to the diligent study of it to show themselves approved. Thus it’s axiomatic truth that the church needs to study these fresh, new Holy Spirit inspired prophecies and add them to the canon of sacred Scripture, or else like the Mormons compile a new equally authoritative addendum of latter-day revelation for the study and instruction of the church.

    In Christ,
    CD

  52. Ian Vincent said:
    It is very hard for us to have confidence that a Christian is filled with the Holy Spirit if they think that hearing Jesus’ voice is a foreign concept

    Sad, sad, sad.
    To read the Word of God IS TO HEAR THE VOICE OF JESUS.

  53. rhology said: Sad, sad, sad. To read the Word of God IS TO HEAR THE VOICE OF JESUS.

    This comment creates a false dichotomy. There are many people that read the word of God and don’t hear the voice of Jesus. Leave a man alone with a Bible, no Holy Spirit, and he will not hear the voice of Jesus no matter how much he reads the word. Unless of course you believe that there is some measure of good in natural man, by which he is able to accomplish this ‘hearing’ by his own ‘free will’. Even if you think the gifts have ceased, you must admit that regeneration and sanctification are not possible without the Holy Spirit. John 16:13

    Jim

  54. CD said:
    “God’s people are to unswervingly bow before His Word, and commit themselves to the diligent study of it to show themselves approved. ”

    Brother, we probably will go round and round and we don’t even seem to differ as much as what it would appear. I do agree with your statement quoted above too, but that is why I trust God still operates the same in the gifting today as He did in the early church (Ephesians 4:11-13, Romans 12-3:8, 1 Corinthians 12:4-13). I do not believe that any prophetic word can add to the cannon or contradict the cannon, but it can be used for the edification of the saints though.

    CD said:
    “Thus it’s axiomatic truth that the church needs to study these fresh, new Holy Spirit inspired prophecies and add them to the canon of sacred Scripture, or else like the Mormons compile a new equally authoritative addendum of latter-day revelation for the study and instruction of the church.”

    Expository teaching, even really good expository teaching can edify the saints, but the preachers expository teaching is not on par with the written word. I can think of some writings by Jonathon Edwards that were used mightily by the Lord to show me the truth about mans depravity, yet I have not added a 67th book to my Bible titled “The letters of Edwards”. In the same way I can listen to a prophetic word and it does not add to the cannon either. I think saying that is axiomatic truth is a stretch, it may be a likely outcome, but not axiomatic. If you come to me with a prophetic word of an attitude in my heart it does not need to be added to scripture. Even if you come prophesying famine it still doesn’t need to be added any more then the expounded teachings of Edwards on depravity do. If you think there is any value in discussing this further let me know, otherwise God bless you in Christ Jesus.

    -Jim

  55. Jim,

    In context both Ian and Rho were dealing with professing Christian experience, so it’s actually your comment that sets up a false dichotomy by bringing a group into view – unbelievers – that isn’t even under discussion.

    Jim said: I do not believe that any prophetic word can add to the cannon or contradict the cannon, but it can be used for the edification of the saints though.

    And I repeat: The Scriptures testify that “prophecy” of the OT/NT variety is solely produced by the Holy Spirit (2 Pet. 1:20-21), and we know that the Holy Spirit’s primary role in the church age is to point to and glorify Christ (John 16:14) by applying His saving work and Word to His people. We also know that in the former times God spoke by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son (Heb. 1:1-2) Who is Truth embodied, the Word made flesh (John 1:1); and that the Holy Bible testifies of Him, being the divinely inspired, infallible, plenary, inscripturated Word of God.

    Prophecy in the OT/NT sense is the utterance of God. If by “prophetic word” you mean the Holy Spirit speaking through a human instrument, then it is the Word of God, and by definition the Word of God must be treasured up in the heart and obeyed. If you mean something other than this, then whatever we want to call this manifestation it isn’t Biblical “prophecy”, but something else. In this case the “something else” is representative of “something” other than the prophecy proper we find in the Bible, thus appeals to Scripture for support of this “something else” as being prophecy proper are found to be erroneous, misguided, and mistaken at best.

    Jim continued: Expository teaching, even really good expository teaching can edify the saints, but the preachers expository teaching is not on par with the written word. I can think of some writings by Jonathon Edwards that were used mightily by the Lord to show me the truth about mans depravity, yet I have not added a 67th book to my Bible titled “The letters of Edwards”. In the same way I can listen to a prophetic word and it does not add to the cannon either. I think saying that is axiomatic truth is a stretch, it may be a likely outcome, but not axiomatic. If you come to me with a prophetic word of an attitude in my heart it does not need to be added to scripture. Even if you come prophesying famine it still doesn’t need to be added any more then the expounded teachings of Edwards on depravity do.

    Straw man. Edwards didn’t claim that the Holy Spirit inspired his sermons, and/or spoke the sermon through him, and/or gave him “new light” about “true meaning” of the text.

    “If you think there is any value in discussing this further let me know, otherwise God bless you in Christ Jesus.”

    I don’t think there is, actually.

    In Him,
    CD

  56. CD,

    I wanted to clarify “In context both Ian and Rho were dealing with professing Christian experience,”
    All I meant was that we as professing Christians can only be sanctified by the Holy Spirit inside of us illuminating Gods word. The work of the Holy Spirit in us does not end at conversion.

    Also, “Straw man. Edwards didn’t claim that the Holy Spirit inspired his sermons”

    Edwards was certainly teaching the word of God with Holy Spirit inspiration. That was my only point there too. I think if you asked him “did you just preach from the flesh brother Edwards?” that his answer would be no :0)

    God bless brother – Jim

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: