108 Comments

Philip Yancey: Keynote speaker at a 2011 homosexual Christian conference.

Christian author and editor-at-large for Christianity Today, Philip Yancey, will be the keynote speaker at the Gay Christian Network’s upcoming 2011 conference.

Here’s a link to a Q&A with Philip Yancey from 2009 on the topic of homosexuality.

There’s nothing more I can add to Ingrid Schlueter’s remarks (summing up what we are beholding) when she said the following in response to this news:

“Evangelicals once prided themselves that they were not like those small-minded fundamentalists who erected walls around their beliefs and stuck to the Bible. Evangelicals were different, they claimed, because they believed in lowering the drawbridge into the culture so that the church could intermingle. Well, all these years later, evangelicalism is indistinguishable from the culture around it, this story being a case in point. That’s because the lowered drawbridge of evangelicalism wasn’t sending out soldiers of Christ intent on evangelizing the lost. It was sending traffic from the world’s culture straight into the heart of the church. Traffic goes both ways on a drawbridge, and nobody bothered to stand watch at evangelicalism’s gate.”

108 comments on “Philip Yancey: Keynote speaker at a 2011 homosexual Christian conference.

  1. Methinks they have the word “fruit” misconstrued.

  2. This is what God has done to them for not proclaiming the true Gospel of Christ and furthering the doctrines of Christ and his Apostles But they came with another and God gave them over to a reprobate mind.
    And when the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. How much more so of those who turn the Grace of our Lord into wantonness. 2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
    You can tell they have no fear of God or they would have seen his word and took heed!

  3. I like defcon, most of the time you are right on, on this topic I think you are jumping the gun.

    I am not convinced its a sin to speak at this conference.

    I think the point is not to cast the first stone because Mr. Yancey is speaking there per se, but the point is what he says when he is there. IF he preaches the word and points out their sin, great.
    If not, or worse agrees with that sin, then he had a chance, missed the mark and now he has confirmed who he is and what he really believes. Not sure if I will ever find out what he says there but that is the litmus test. Get off his back for judging him for speaking there until he has spoken.

  4. While Jesus was and is a friend of sinners, you would most definately would NOT have found a sign announcing:

    “Jesus Christ: Keynote speaker at the AD 32 homosexual disciple conference.”

    The fact that Philip Yancey is keynote speaker at this “conference” is enough to safely say that he agrees with their abominations.

    But lets look deeper..

    I see he has an endorsement from the apostate in chief Billy Graham on his site..

    http://www.philipyancey.com/

    And now for what he REALLY thinks about the subject at hand…

    http://www.philipyancey.com/q-and-a-topics/homosexuality

    Let his own words judge him.

  5. ,,,well if Mr. Yancey gets thrown out on his ear, I guess we know what he talked about, eh Norm?

  6. Sorry Norm, but you have sadly missed what is present in the evangelical world. Yancey has long been extremely inclusive in his views and his approach to the sin and perversion of homosexuality. I am only realizing now after some further research since finding out this information how deep the rabbit hole actually goes.

    It is sin to speak at this conference. He will not preach the entire counsel of the Word of God, and under no circumstance will he point out their sin. It is interesting that the same excuses were given in regards to Mark Driscoll when he spoke at the Crystal Cathedral and before that when Ravi Zacharias spoke before the assembled LDS members. Both of them erred greatly in that they acknowledged their belief that their listeners were true believers of the Lord Jesus Christ. Driscoll was wrong! Zacharias was wrong! Yancey is wrong!

    Romans 1:32 makes this clear that not only those who practice homosexuality are condemned but those who support and endorse their actions and sins. There is NO way that the GCN would call Yancey to speak for them if they were not convinced that he fully endorses their abominable lifestyle!

    Check out Yancey’s books and you will see that he has called for the inclusion of homosexuals into the welcoming arms of the evangelical church at large. Again, I will go one step further and declare that a man like Yancey can no more know and have a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ than does Ray Boltz. Regardless of our thoughts or whether we are convinced or not does not matter. What matters is what God’s infallible Word has to say.

    In the end your contention cannot be with us, but with the Word of God. I have a question for you. Why is it so important to stand behind the error of a man like Yancey?

  7. He’s going to talk about The Jesus [He] Never Knew. :o(

  8. I am constantly troubled by how these self professing Christians disregard the apparent warnings in the Holy Word of God regarding issues such as homosexuality. How more cut and dry can God make it? He regards homosexuality as an abomination, period. Does Mr. Yancey agree or disagree? He is the key note speaker for a reason, yes? For speaking out against homosexuality? Hardly. One doesn’t invite someone as renowned as Yancey unless they agree with each other. You want your key note speaker to compliment your conference. So that being said, does he agree with homosexuals being acceptable to God? The answer obviously is yes. This being said, he has to disregard the Bible on this subject. Common sense. It’s nothing more than another man putting away the Word of God, and allowing the influence of humanists to alter and condition his thinking. The result unfortunately is hell.

  9. Well I don’t know Yancey at all, you have all made it clear who he really is and what he thinks.

    I know a few gays in my industry and do not agree or condone their choices, but do not agree with alcoholics, liars and drug users either. What they do is wrong according to the word and its all sin, but I sin too. I hang with lots of unsaved sinners and share at times what God is doing in my life and how thankful I am. We are called to extend grace and if the opportunity is there I would share my experiences last 2 years with them and tell them how amazing our God is, vs. judging them, or scorning them, or pure hate for them. Probably does not sit right with most defcon readers but I am not qualified to judge anyone, not my job, and will share the good news when I can.

  10. I don’t think any DefCon poster or reader would tell a homosexual to “hit the road” if an opportunity to minister to them IN TRUTH presented itself.

    Far be it from me to ever say, “I thank you Lord that I’m not like other men.”

    Americans do focus on abortion and homosexuality often to the ignoring of other sins that are just as serious like idolatry, adultery and fornication.

    Yancey promotes himself as a “shepherd” though and as such:

    1 Timothy 5:19,20 19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. 20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.

    He really isn’t an elder being he disqualifies himself with false doctrine, but since he insists on “playing church leader”, he needs to be rebuked before all.

    Christians that have logs in their eyes are the only ones prohibited from judging according to scripture. But if you are walking with the Lord and not practicing sin, you are absolutely qualified to judge.

    John 7:24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

    That would be according to the Word as Jesus said.

    John 12:48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him–the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

    1 Corinthians 5:12,13 12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

    Yancey claims to be “inside”. Indeed he is, he has crept in unawares.

    1 Corinthians 6:2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

    Always remembering.

    James 2:13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

    Jude 22,23 22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

    In this ever increasingly evil world, fear of hell seems to be the only thing that will get through to some people.

  11. I think the story I heard once can be used here. If you were walking down the sidewalk and happened across a man with no arms or legs sitting on the edge of that sidewalk on fire and unaware of it, what would you do? Would you:
    1. Walk up and gently love him, hoping that your love would put the flames out?
    2. Tell your pastor about it and ask him to intervene maybe with a sermon on Sunday about how to put your own personal fire out in a non judgmental way?
    3. Walk past not wanting to impose your opinions on him. Perhaps he wants to be on fire and who are you to judge?
    4. Grab him, throw him down stomp the flames out, roll him around until he was out of harms way?

    Bear in mind, #4 would be considered quite unloving, judgmental, offending and quite unchristian to those watching. What would you do? This whole don’t judge garbage has infiltrated the church so badly, that it reminds me of morning glory. It looks nice, does a nice job of covering up things, but underneath it strangles, suffocates and kills off the life of all around it.

    Matt. 7
    1 Judge not, that ye be not judged . 2 For with what judgment ye judge , ye shall be judged : and with what measure ye mete , it shall be measured to you again . 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold , a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

    Notice verse 5. Clean up or at least attempt to clean up your own life in order to see clearly enough to help clean up your brother’s life. God wants us to reach out with real love and help our brothers and sisters in Christ clean up their lives. We should all stand accountable to each other. Not standing in a place of superiority, but humility and understanding that we are all equally sinners, saved by grace. Confessing our sins to one another. Why does the Bible tell us to do this, if we are told in churches today to not judge, tell one another they are wrong and accept one another’s lifestyle? You cannot confess your sins to one another unless there has been rebuke and conviction. Away with the “I don’t want to judge” attitude. More people are going to hell because those around them don’t have the guts to speak out and rebuke them and we who stand idly by and watch our brother burn up from the fires of sin and hell will be held accountable for it one day.

  12. That is so tragic to read. Sad.

  13. I want to post something on this subject that I am hearing from some Christian circles re: this subject. Let me state up front that I believe fully God’s word, and that homesexuality is a choice and a sin. But, I just want to point out what some Christians now think and believe about this, and how they are justifying their “change of heart” about this subject. They say, based on science, that homosexuality is not so “straightforward” anymore, that a “very strange thing has happened in the western world in the past 100 years” in that the male sperm count has fallen dramatically. Therefore, some Christians are claiming, western males are becoming much less masculine than even their grandfathers. The claim is that this is due to “phytoestrogens” that are found everywhere in our industralized society, but much less so in third world countries, and that these phytoestrogens result in the destruction of sperm (and ultimately feminization of males). I’m not making this up, this is the kind of thing I’m hearing being talked about. They have also pointed to the occurances of babies that are born with “ambiguous sexuality” and could therefore be raised as either male or female, their point being that they can’t reconcile this type of occurance with the Scriptures. Ultimately, far too many Christians now use these types of “scientific” arguments to claim that homosexuality is “not” the fault (or choice) of the individual, but is rather either environmental or a birth defect. I am not a scientist, and I don’t know a thing about “phytoestrogens”, nor do I know how much truth there is to their claim about the western male being affected by this. I just want to share what I’m now beginning to hear quite often and how this is changing some minds.

  14. Marilyn,

    Oh, those chemicals do exist and they are feminizing men as well as turning women masculine.

    The phytoestrogens are in BPA. BPA is found in the lining of soup cans, plastic soda bottles, WalMart store receipts, etc.

    http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/newscience/phytoestrogens/phyto1.htm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisphenol_A

    http://www.usnews.com/science/articles/2009/04/19/tons-of-released-drugs-taint-us-water.html

    http://pubs.acs.org/cen/news/88/i32/8832news.html

    The petrochemical and pharmaceutical companies know it’s happening but don’t care as long as they make a buck.

    That being said, there is still no excuse before God to practice homosexuality, adultery, fornication or any other sin in regardless of whether pollution caused it or not.

    The NWO’s plan is to weaken, depopulate and destroy the earth so only their back yards will be pristine.

    Perhaps they should read this:

    Revelation 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

    God is well able to deliver anyone, in any circumstance if they really want to be delivered.

    If He can protect us from being hurt if we are compelled to drink something deadly, he can deliver a homosexual from their abominations.

    Mark 16:18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

    The ability of the hand of the Lord to save is not shortened by man or any evil thing that man can create.

  15. Well, it’s only a matter of time before the seeker-driven/purpose-driven churches line up and do the same. Let’s all pray for Philip Yancey to receive God’s forgiveness of his sins. I read two of his books when I was a babe in Christ. I remember liking the books, but now I am wondering if I was being deceived. I thank the Lord for ministries that have taught me how to distinguish law and gospel correctly.

  16. Dear Norm:

    Firstly you accuse us of “jumping the gun” on this issue. Then you make what amounts to as excuses for Yancey, even telling us to:

    “Get off his back for judging him for speaking there until he has spoken.”

    Evidently you did not read the link in the post which took you to Yancey’s own site explaining his (unbiblical) position on the sin of homosexuality. After Unprofitable Servant linked to this same piece from Yancey’s own site in the comments section above, you then concede:

    “Well I don’t know Yancey at all, you have all made it clear who he really is and what he thinks.”

    But is there an apology for what you said in the first comment? Nope. Instead you then begin to wax eloquent with:

    “We are called to extend grace and if the opportunity is there I would share my experiences last 2 years with them and tell them how amazing our God is, vs. judging them, or scorning them, or pure hate for them. Probably does not sit right with most defcon readers but I am not qualified to judge anyone, not my job, and will share the good news when I can. “

    So by this comment you imply (and whoever reads your comment will no doubt make the assumption) that we somehow have no grace, we scorn people, we hate people, and that your position would probably not sit well with DefCon readers, as if we and our readers are some backwoods, unenlightened, goons. Insult DefCon writers all you want (implicitly or explicitly), but please don’t insult our readers.

    I’m sorry to say–unless I’m completely reading this wrong–that your pontificating smacks of judgment (the very thing you claim to be impervious to) and it drips with condescension.

    Perhaps you need to familiarize yourself with the facts and our position before wielding your non-judgmental sword of judgment. We don’t expect everyone to agree with our positions, but in this particular comment thread your thinly veiled assumptions and speculations appear to have ulterior motives.

  17. Hi Marilyn,
    I found your comment to be very interesting; I fully understand your position on the subject and realize you hold to a biblical view on homosexuality.

    Let me start by addressing this part of your comment:
    “But, I just want to point out what some Christians now think and believe about this, and how they are justifying their “change of heart” about this subject. They say, based on science, that homosexuality is not so “straightforward” anymore, that a “very strange thing has happened in the western world in the past 100 years” in that the male sperm count has fallen dramatically. Therefore, some Christians are claiming, western males are becoming much less masculine than even their grandfathers. The claim is that this is due to “phytoestrogens” that are found everywhere in our industralized society, but much less so in third world countries, and that these phytoestrogens result in the destruction of sperm (and ultimately feminization of males). I’m not making this up, this is the kind of thing I’m hearing being talked about.”

    I must say, anyone who holds to this nonsense is NOT CHRISTIAN; a true follower of Christ understands the nature of sin, it is birthed from within {Matthew 15:19, 20}. It has nothing to do with sperm count and everything to do with acting out on forbidden lusts. Those who are biblically illiterate will fall for this nonsense, those who are born from above will seek truth as one seeks riches. Man will go to great lengths to avoid accountability, including blaming God. In the end, what does God’s word say on the matter, regardless of who man tries to blame? “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” – 1st Corinthians 6:9-11
    No matter how anyone tries to justify it, homosexuality is a sin; unrepentant homosexuals will spend an eternity in the lake of fire…period.

    Thank you for bringing this lame excuse to my attention.

    Lyn

  18. Yeah. What she said.

  19. “Sure we all thought God condemned homosexualty, but more advanced scholarly studies are revealing we have grossly misunderstood what God ACTUALLY was saying in those verses. Besides, it has been scientifically proven that some individuals are born homosexuals, so would God condemn those who can’t help being who they are? So let’s celebrate who we are: gays in Christ.” So the reasoning goes. Sound outrageous? Read this from their conference ad:

    “Worship God together. Learn from Christian leaders. Recommit your heart to Christ. And have an amazing time doing it! The annual Gay Christian Network conference brings hundreds of brothers and sisters in Christ together for fellowship, worship, support, Bible study, and more! Whether you’re gay, know someone who is, or just want to learn more, this is an awesome opportunity to seek God together.”

    So here, it’s a bold given that one can be in Christ, fellowship, worship and have Bible study, all while being a practicing homosexual.

    This is all straight out of the Emerging church playbook: embrace, promote, and celebrate as “christian” that which has been universally rejected by professing Christians for millenia. At it’s heart, it is an overt attack on the authority of God’s word. For if what we were so sure all these centuries wasn’t REALLY what God said (especially something so cut and dry as homosexuality), then everything else we thought we understood about the Scriptures must also fall under suspicion and doubt. And at the end of the argument, it is not God’s word that reigns supreme, but our chosen interpretation of it. With the objective truth of God’s word removed, our own subjective “interpretations” and traditions become the standards of truth and righteousness.

    Jesus addresses those in Matt.7:21-23, who consider themselves Christians, who call Jesus their Lord, who do many admirable works in His name, and tells them: “depart from Me, I never knew you”, because they were also doing that which He forbids in His word (lawlessness).

    All our reasonings, all the accolades of men, all of our support groups, will avail us NOTHING in the great day when we are all judged by the Supreme Judge of all creation, Who has said:

    “He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.” Jn.12:48

  20. People will do anything to defend ungodly behavior.

    The scripture is plain in both the Old and New Testaments that homosexuality is an abomination that will consign it’s practitioners to the lake of fire for eternity and yet “christians” like Yancey will debate with the church on it.

    This can be seen in just about ANY doctrinal issue, even the idolatry of “christ”-mass.

    It’s a very disturbing thing to watch the church enter the great falling away.

    In years to come, it’s quite possible that the only true believers we will see is when we look in the mirror.

  21. UnprofitableServant:

    I can smell the heavenly aroma of true believers in the rest homes, the veterinarian’s office, in the hospitals, the fire stations, home-schooled children, plain-clothes farmers, indeed, just about all around me. I would hope when I look in the mirror, I would always see the abominable wretch saved from the grasp of hell by the One Who’s sandal I am utterly unworthy to touch.

  22. Hi DavidW,

    The point I was trying to make is that as the falling away progresses, true believers will become rarer and rarer to find.

    Where I live, I can honestly say that I know of maybe a half dozen true believers at most. And we’re all struggling.

    When I say true believers, I mean those who can at least say that every passage of scripture from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Notwithstanding the day to day struggles that we all face.

    I take the scriptural commands to avoid those who promote false doctrine and those who want their ears itched very seriously.

  23. I am bothered by the title “Gay Christian Network”…..talk about an oxymoron.
    Homosexuality is an abomination.
    Do we love and evangelize the sinner–ABSOLUTELY.
    Do we condone and tolerate the sin –ABSOLUTELY NOT!

  24. UnprofitableServant:

    I think all of us who have been dealing with the deceived, the confused, the unsure, and the messengers of unrighteousness, for sufficient length of time, can testify that the churches are becoming lonelier places than they used to be (even though body count may increase). But we need to remind ourselves of Elijah’s momentary mis-assessment: that he alone stood faithful, when in fact (and unknown to him) the Lord has preserved 7000 others who have not bowed the knee to Baal. The gates of hell will not prevail against the true church of Jesus Christ, of which the follower of Christ is but one of many members, and always will be.

  25. You know David, I was thinking of Elijah while I was typing the previous message. :)

    It’s true that a great multitude that no man can number will come out of the great tribulation but out of 6,890,964,241 people (figure as of 5 minutes ago), that will be a very small percentage. The above figure was taken from:

    http://www.worldometers.info/population/

    Matthew 7:14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

    Luke 13:23.24 23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?” And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

  26. Berean Gal:

    Everyone who holds to the absolute supremacy of God’s word should be bothered by that title. For it verbalizes a flat out, bald faced denial and rejection of the authority of God’s word. And it calls others to join (“network”) with such rebellion.

  27. Just as ridiculous a Christian Homosexual is a Christian Atheist. We must keep telling ourselves that just because they call themselves Christians, doesn’t make them so. Unfortunately the world can’t tell the difference.

    http://revivalandreformation.wordpress.com/2010/12/06/christian-leaders-leaning-towards-atheism-ray-comfort-via-sola-dei-gloria/

  28. And equally ridiculous is:

    “Christian 501c3 “church”” (99.999% of all “churches” in America)

    Jesus said you cannot serve God and mammon but thats exactly what they try to do. Mammon always wins though when the I.R.S. comes a callin’.

    I’d have to say that 501c3 churches are more a threat to those who want to do the will of God than the “Gay Christian Network”.

    Thats easy to spot for one that wants to do the will of God.

  29. How about this? XXXchurch or Tabooministry. These “ministries” go to sex shows, brothels, strip clubs and such and hand out specially made Bibles that have a stereotypical porn star on the front of them and they tell the prostitutes, strippers and sellers that Jesus loves you and accepts you for who you are. No Gospel, no Law, no repentance…just gushy love.

  30. Sometimes I want to run outside and just keep on running like Forest Gump did…

    All the while screaming at the top of my lungs, “Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!!!!!”

  31. Y’know, I feel like we are in some weird sci-fi movie where aliens have taken over the bodies and minds of the unsuspecting. There are a few of us left who can see it happening, but no one listens. It is at this moment that we stop and realize that yes, we are in the right time and place in history, yes, we are supposed to see this junk happening (excuse me for waxing the elephant here), but God knows what He is doing in His sovereignty. He knit us together perfectly in the womb and placed us in the exact home and circumstances to do exactly what He wants us to do. He knows exactly what to do and when to do it. Go out and tell others about Jesus, His Gospel and don’t forget the bad news while you are telling them the Good News. Because if you don’t tell them about Hell and judgment, all you will accomplish is to make they way to hell a little more comfortable. Philip Yancey, has been placed as God’s judgment before these gay people, and he will be used by God to keep these people blinded, deceived and condemned. Only IF God chooses to, will He take this one or that one out of that unholy mess, make him holy and set him down to do His will. Let’s intercede for this.

  32. 2 Timothy 4:3, 4 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

    May I suggest that 501c3 “teachers” are a large portion of those mentioned in verse 3?

    And that we are well beyond the start of the falling away spoken of by Paul below.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

  33. I just realized something.

    I’ve said alot about what to avoid in regards to 501c3 pastors and flocks but nothing about what to look for in a true man of God.

    Ready?

    Here goes….

    Go out and look for a homeless man that has no place to lay his head.

    The guy that has no three piece suit, no car, no house, no pulpit and no building to put his non-existent pulpit in.

    The guy that everybody calls crazy, an enemy of the state, demon possesed and causes massive uproars everywhere he goes.

    The guy that everybody wants to get in trouble with the authorities, use trick questions to try and trip up, spit on, slap on the mouth, rip out his beard, throw off a cliff and eventually kill.

    THAT, is the man you want to look for because he is telling the truth.

  34. “Go out and look for a homeless man that has no place to lay his head.

    The guy that has no three piece suit, no car, no house, no pulpit and no building to put his non-existent pulpit in.

    The guy that everybody calls crazy, an enemy of the state, demon possesed and causes massive uproars everywhere he goes.

    The guy that everybody wants to get in trouble with the authorities, use trick questions to try and trip up, spit on, slap on the mouth, rip out his beard, throw off a cliff and eventually kill.

    THAT, is the man you want to look for because he is telling the truth.”

    Are you referring to Charles Manson, Fred Phelps, or Grigori Rasputin? Or the guy on the corner screaming about the reptilian conspiracy involving Windows? Maybe you’re referring to Jesus Christ, but if you did, it was a bad job because you just make the Savior of our souls sound just just another lunatic off his meds – the world can believe that on their own; it doesn’t need our help.

  35. 072591,

    It’s clear to me that your mind has been taken captive because my Bible states that is exactly how the real Jesus was treated.

    Do read your own Bible? Or do you take every word that you are told as gospel without testing it by the Word of God?

    Sorry, but I’m beginning to doubt that you believe in the real Jesus because you fight against everything about Him.

  36. Now for the actual subject at hand, I can almost understand some of what is going on here. When you get Fred Phelps, with his “godhatesfags.com” website taking up the lion’s share of the attention and declaring that the blood of Christ does not cover homosexuality (unlike the lesser sins of murder, rape, and lying – I actually heard a lay pastor explicitly state that incest and pedophilia were lesser sins based on Lot and his daughters), it is tempting to want to reach out and declare that, “No, that’s not how it works. God’s grace is offered to all.” And that is a good instinct, BUT…

    What is happening in part is that those Christians who mean well are not dealing with the sin issue, nor the fact that while the Bible does not call homosexuality an unpardonable sin, the Bible does call it sin, which is to be repented of, not celebrated.

  37. Christianity is for madmen and rebels. We go against the flow, resist the status quo yet are submissive and yield the cheek to our enemies. US, I agree this is what the world saw in our precious Lord, and unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your perspective and attitude) this is what the world will see in us. We are fools…for Christ. We believe in an invisible God, we believe a so-called madman rising from the dead and we believe we (of all people) have the answer to ALL of life’s problems. Imagine that?! The nerve. Not to mention we confidently tell the world that our Lord Jesus (y’know the homeless madman?) is the only way, the only truth and the only life. We KNOW Jesus is the perfect, majestic, all powerful King of kings and Lord of lords, but the world sees through eyes of deception, hate, self and rebellion. This video is awesome for those who want to watch a whole video about how awesome our Jesus is…I just wish he was more descriptive :)

    http://revivalandreformation.wordpress.com/2010/10/20/thats-my-king/

  38. “It’s clear to me that your mind has been taken captive because my Bible states that is exactly how the real Jesus was treated.”

    I didn’t say it didn’t. I was implying, and I honestly thought you were smart enough to understand this, that your description was too vague – possibly inaccurate, as I’m not sold on the idea of Jesus being homeless, but I haven’t really researched that so I won’t go into that. Many, many cults are developed on the idea that the crazy guy is the only sane one, and many in the world see Jesus Christ as just another one of those cults, but with more money. That is why I felt the description you gave needs to be clarified; it does not stand well on its own.

    “Sorry, but I’m beginning to doubt that you believe in the real Jesus because you fight against everything about Him.”

    Wrong again. I am fighting against what YOU claim is to be the things of God; more specifically, I am fighting against what YOU claim are clear-cut, non-negotiable points which you have implied to be necessary to salvation. You claim that those who celebrate Christmas WILL receive the Mark of the Beast. Nobody else has claimed that, and even the Pilgrim, as opposed to Christmas as he is, made a point of not condemning those who celebrate it. You claim that ALL pastors from churches that are registered nonprofit corporations are false teachers with a special place in Hell reserved for them (or did you not read the passage from the Bible you claim to read), then backtracked to imply that only most. You have claimed that celebrating birthdays is unholy, based, not on any command or mention from God but based on what two bad people did on their birthdays. You claimed that voting is a sin, which I contend that the Bible implies the opposite.

    The issue of Christian liberty is that there are going to be areas of disagreement on subjects between different Christians and sometimes, that’s OK, but you do not see that. So now you have put me in the category of “false Christian” because I don’t agree with you.

    I will ask you, because this question has been on my mind. Are you follower of Darwin Fish?

  39. Matthew 8:20 And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.”

    Mark 3:21 But when His own people heard about this, they went out to lay hold of Him, for they said, “He is out of His mind.”

    Mark 14:58 “We heard Him say, ‘I will destroy this temple made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.’ ”

    Luke 23:2 And they began to accuse Him, saying, “We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar, saying that He Himself is Christ, a King.”

    Mark 12:13 Then they sent to Him some of the Pharisees and the Herodians, to catch Him in His words.

    Luke 20:20 So they watched Him, and sent spies who pretended to be righteous, that they might seize on His words, in order to deliver Him to the power and the authority of the governor.

    Luke 20:26 But they could not catch Him in His words in the presence of the people. And they marveled at His answer and kept silent.

    John 8:48 Then the Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?”

    Luke 19:47 And He was teaching daily in the temple. But the chief priests, the scribes, and the leaders of the people sought to destroy Him,

    Matthew 26:67 Then they spat in His face and beat Him; and others struck Him with the palms of their hands,

    Mark 14:65 Then some began to spit on Him, and to blindfold Him, and to beat Him, and to say to Him, “Prophesy!” And the officers struck Him with the palms of their hands.

    Matthew 27:30 Then they spat on Him, and took the reed and struck Him on the head.

    Isaiah 50:6 I gave My back to those who struck Me, And My cheeks to those who plucked out the beard; I did not hide My face from shame and spitting.

    Luke 4:29 and rose up and thrust Him out of the city; and they led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city was built, that they might throw Him down over the cliff.

    John 8:37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.

    John 8:40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.

    John 19:15 But they cried out, “Away with Him, away with Him! Crucify Him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar!”

    Mark 15:13 So they cried out again, “Crucify Him!”

    Mark 15:14 Then Pilate said to them, “Why, what evil has He done?” But they cried out all the more, “Crucify Him!”

    Mark 15:20 And when they had mocked Him, they took the purple off Him, put His own clothes on Him, and led Him out to crucify Him.

    And the consequences of being His disciple.

    Acts 6:11 Then they secretly induced men to say, “We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses and God.”

    Acts 6:13 They also set up false witnesses who said, “This man does not cease to speak blasphemous words against this holy place and the law;

    And what are we to do with all this?

    1 John 2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

    And no, I’m not a follower of Darwin Fish.

  40. Whew…U.S., give your fingers a rest! Jesus was what the world deemed a madman, and we are just as mad for following Him. He was ostracized, alienated and crucified for His stance, words and claims, and be prepared, so shall we.

    We are all fools and madmen in the world’s eyes, because we follow after a resurrected fool, listen to the voice of an invisible God and claim to have THE answer to ALL of life’s problems. Not only that, but we tell the world that our Lord Jesus is THE way, THE truth and THE Life. How arrogant, how closed minded…you better believe it!

    Here is a video by S.M. Lockridge who spends just over six minutes proclaiming Jesus…it’s beautiful!

    http://revivalandreformation.wordpress.com/2010/10/20/thats-my-king/

  41. revivalandreformation,

    It doesn’t concern me much that the world thinks such things, whats troubling to me is that those who name the name of Christ do and all the while think they are born again and a shoe in for heaven.

    But then again, that was prophesied as well.

    John 16:2 They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service.

    Matthew 10:21 Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.

    Matthew 24:10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.

    I’ll check out that video in a few.

  42. It boggles my mind personally over how clever the enemy is. He has convinced the world (and the church mind you) that in order to overcome the problems of the world (hate, famine, poverty etc.) you must ban together, join hands, put away your prejudices and become as one. My wife and I are going through a time right now, here is the link DefCon did on us:

    http://defendingcontending.com/2010/04/19/the-plight-of-paul-and-zabeth-bayne/

    Well, we got to go our son’s “Winter Concert”, and they made sure it had very little to do with Christmas. The theme of the concert was called “Me 2 We”. My gracious, you should have seen the conditioning and propaganda being spewed out on all of us and my boy id being pumped full of this on a daily basis. NOTHING whatsoever to do with Jesus at all. He is the answer. They have all the wording down so well, pumping up the kids to ‘be the change’. They just can’t see it. it is so very saddening and frustrating at the same time. Just like homosexuality. They think it’s okay, they think they are in love and so the lies go. I read an article on Albert Mohler once about a coroner who could tell when he received a dead body into his charge, and if it was killed by a homosexual or not. He said in the gay world, the bodies of those killed by gay people were mutilated, beaten and murdered with such ferocity, that he could actually tell the difference than if the murderer was heterosexual. What does that say about their loving ways? Don’t provoke a gay person to kill you…This is common sense to me at least. They are mostly a very angry, easily offended lot who have a chip on their shoulders.

    And any “Christians” would do well to get on their good side now, while they can…of course just in case, I am being sarcastic here.

  43. The true unity the Word speaks of will unfortuantely not be as it was in Acts until the church is persecuted as it was in Acts.

    Paul spoke at length of how to obtain true scriptural unity.

    1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

    1 Corinthians 4:6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.

    God bless you.

  44. revivalandreformation,

    I read your plight and immediately forwarded it to everyone on my mailing list as a prayer request.

    May the Lord be with you mightily at this time and may He return His children to your care.

    And may God repay that vile, corrupt governmental institution according to their works!

    And may God repay that vile, corrupt governmental institution according to their works!

  45. Thank you. We should be getting the judge’s decision by the end of the month. God’s will be done.

  46. Well, unfortunately we’re not the only ones suffering. We are a small stone in the brook of Governmental corruption.

    http://www.fixcas.com/

    This is a site from a friend of ours who posts stories of the abuses of Social services all over the world. Be prepared and have lots of tissue handy, you’ll need it.

    This is a diabolical epidemic that is destroying families every day for little or no reason or evidence whatsoever. Thank fully, God is with us, and has shown His sovereignty and provision throughout our struggle.

    This is also a link from the Pastor who married us back in 2001. He has been writing about us for about two years now. Start at the beginning here: http://ronunruhgps.blogspot.com/2009/10/paul-and-zabeth-bayne-part-one-alarming.html

    …and move forward to get the perspective. Thank you again for your prayers and support.

  47. revivalandreformation,

    I almost had to go run for the tissues when I read your plight. As well as being filled with indignation.

    God Bless you again

  48. Here is another tragedy where the readers of this post can help by simply writing a letter and sending an e-mail as per the instructions under: URGENT ACTION NEEDED at: http://friendsofdomenic.blogspot.com/

    be blessed -

  49. Thank you brother Michael for bringing this to the attention of the DefCon readers. The parents lost their son because they wanted to home-school. I mean c’mon, this is enough. It’s time parents started standing up and protecting that which God blessed them with. We are not breeders employed by the gov’t to produce numbers in a system.

  50. Ehhh, US:

    The phytoestrogens are in BPA. BPA is found in the lining of soup cans, plastic soda bottles, WalMart store receipts, etc.

    and

    I’d have to say that 501c3 churches are more a threat to those who want to do the will of God than the “Gay Christian Network”.

    Your posts are sounding more and more paranoid. It’s becoming hard to take you seriously.

    May I suggest: Remember, God is in control.

    I don’t want you to end up ignoring Romans 13:1-7 (as I stated in the other post) and end up in the stone lonesome for 10 years like Kent Hovind!

    “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.”

    God is in control!

    In Jesus Christ,
    - Jeff H

  51. Jeff H,

    Parinoid?

    You might want to read the following:

    “Disputed chemical bisphenol-A found in paper receipts”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/26/AR2010072605001.html

    I’m not going to post stories to other places BPA is found as you clearly know more than even the reporters that uncovered the above.

    Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge….

  52. I receive the same brick walls with people when we try to tell them about the horrors of the Child protection industry. They just tune you out because we end up sounding like a couple of nut cases.

    “It can’t be that bad, there must be another side to the story…”

    Sorry. We are not a unique case, for all over the world, Child Protection workers steal children out of loving homes for little or no reason whatsoever. One time a boy was removed in Australia because his parents dressed him in a pink sleeper because he had messed his clothes so badly, they had nothing else to put him in. A neighbour saw him in pink, and called the authorities and they stormed in, kicking down the door, wrestling the child away from his parents, and in being in such a rush, they whacked his head up against the wall. It is this bad Jeff. It’s worse than any of us can possibly think.

    Vaccines? These links will show you the dastardly motives behind what goes into them.

    http://www.vierascheibner.org/

    http://vactruth.com/

    The gov’t we elect in, whether it be in the States, Canada or elsewhere has it in for us. We have to realize this. It is a juggernaut out of control and unless there is a tipping point, it will only get worse.

  53. Amen brother!

  54. It seems to me that when many Christians use the line “hate the sin, love the sinner” part that they have the hate part down realy good–the love part not so much!

    Also, Jesus never taught us this cliche…if anything, he taught us to “love the sinner…hate your own sin!”

  55. Sven:

    It’s important to consider that ALL of the Bible is God’s word, ALL of it equal to the words of Jesus. Throughout the whole Bible is the basic concept that the righteous hates sin (both his own, as well as sin wherever it manifests).

    “Through your precepts I get understanding; therefore I hate every false way.” (Ps.119:104)

    “How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, Nor stand in the path of sinners, Nor sit in the seat of scoffers.” (Ps.1:1)

    “I hate and abhor falsehood, but I love your law.” (Ps. 119:163)

    “I hate those who pay regard to worthless idols, but I trust in the LORD”. (Ps.31:6)

    “A righteous man hates falsehood, But a wicked man acts disgustingly and shamefully.” (Prov.13:5)

    “and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah [homosexuals] to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the WICKED” (2 Pet.2:6-7)

    “If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked person shall die for his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand.” (Ezek.3:18)

    All unrighteousness is sin (1 Jn. 5:17), it is hated and condemned by God. Hating sin (wherever it is found) is the righteous behavior of a follower of Christ. It is also an act of righteousness to recognize and have serious concern when anyone is displaying that they are lost in their sin and headed for an eternity of hellfire. And it is an act of real, genuine love to give sinners the Gospel of Salvation through Jesus Christ the only Savior, calling them to repent of their sins as Jesus did.

    On the other hand, it is an act of hate, hatred of the worst kind, to withhold the Gospel from those perishing in their sins. Such hate masquerading as “love” is not of Christ.

  56. I have no problem with truth spoken in love–sadly I rarely hear of anyone actually showing love to those who find themselves with same sex attractions–even those who do not act on those urges.
    I would also challenge your reasoning of why Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed:
    a) God had already judged the city long before the attempted gang rape of the messengers. The angels were sent there to usher Lot and his family out, being that not even 10 righteous people were found in the city.
    b) The cause for their destruction is clearly found in the Bible:
    Ezekiel 16:48-50 (New International Version, ©2010)

    48 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, your sister Sodom and her daughters never did what you and your daughters have done.

    49 “‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

    Indeed it says they did detestable things, no doubt the attempted rape of the angels (not to mention Lot offering his own daughters as a way to appease the crowd) among them.

    Other sins that are clearly associated with Sodom in the Word are:
    * Idolatry Deuteronomy 29:17-26; 32:32-38
    * Murder, greed, theft, rebellion Isaiah 1:9-23
    * Mistreating the poor, arrogance Isaiah 3:8-19
    * Adultery, deceit by priests and prophets, pride of the heart, idolatry Jeremiah 23:10-14; 49:16-18; 50:2-40
    * Cruelty, failure to care for the young and poor Lamentations 4:3-6
    * Oppression and mistreating the poor Amos 4:1-11
    * Pride Zephaniah 2:8
    * Living after ungodliness 2 Peter 2:6
    * Fornication, going after strange flesh Jude 7

    Let’s not simply say that the sin of Sodom was homosexuality when the Bible clearly teaches that there were (a lot of) other things which brought their judgment. Strangely enough I don’t hear the Christian church treating the haughty, the prideful, and those lacking empathy for “the least of these” in our society in the same way as they treat homosexual men and women.
    (As a matter of observation, haughtiness, pride and lack of empathy are among the most prevalent sins in the church, and far more harmful to it being able to carry out the Great Commission to which she was called, than homosexuality is.)

    Truth spoken in love,
    Sven

  57. Sven:

    I never said the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah were limited to homosexuality, just the most widely known of their sins. And Scripture says they of Sodom and Gomorrah were singled out AS AN EXAMPLE to others who would follow in their particular error, the most notorious of which was homosexuality. Ever wonder where the reference to “sodomy” came from? Romans 1 gives an account of man’s condition, of his natural bent to all sorts of evil, and, low and behold, homosexuality is right there prominently mentioned down the degenerate path. And it is a path that, out of true love, we don’t want anyone to continue down. For it leads to only one place: eternal hellfire.

    Sven, have the verses I gave above meant nothing to you? You mention showing love to the homosexual. Have you followed the highlighted link to the post on love in my last post? I say again, it is not love, but hate, to encourage or to withhold the Gospel, and warning of God, from the homosexual.

    God has condemned homosexuality (in both Testaments), as well as pride, fornication, theft, murder, lying, and all other sins. Every true Christian understands he is no better than anyone else, but is a sinner saved by grace. Do not confuse condemnation of sin with a prideful condemnation of the sinner. It is the true Christian’s prayer and heart’s desire that every homosexual, every thief, every murderer, etc. come to repentance and that they may be saved. And it is every true Christian’s desire to walk humbly before his God in obedience to His word.

  58. Sven, yes there are all kinds of sinners in churches. True Christians are repentent sinners, false converts are not, BUT I don’t know any who boast and has pride in their sins and holds mardi gras celebrating it

  59. It doesn’t appear to me that a conference of people there to fellowship with each other and worship God, even if you and I may not agree with them is the same as a “mardi gras” as you put it. Sharing the truth in love does not include making disparaging remarks about them. Show a little bit of grace…much more grace than we show often has been extended to us.

    Let me ask an interesting question posed to ne by a friend recently. If a person admitted same sex attraction, but was committed to living a celibate life (rather than going through what has been in many cases) harmful and unsuccessful ministry by ex-gay groups, would there be a place for them within the body of Christ? (basically what the sponsoring group of the conference coined as “side b”.

    In love, in Him
    Sven

  60. Jude 7–Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

  61. Sven….. Let me ask you a question.

    Would a conference where hundreds or thousands of non-repentant adulterer’s get together each year to celebrate their pure love of cheating on their wives and husbands would that be ok too?

  62. Sven. I wasn’t talking about mardi gras at conference

  63. Forgive me then for drawing that inferrence from your post. I noticed however, that you neglected to answer my question?

    Sven

  64. I am a sinner saved by grace, what right would I have to reject any one. That is not the point of this post PY has been a professing Christian for many years. If he is not sure about homosexuality being sinful, I would suggest he stops teaching and does an in depth Bible study and realises he is in error and repent. If he doesn’t he is a false teacher who is leading many astray, and facing a harsher judgement as a false teacher. This conference is filled with many so called teachers who know the truth and have decided to reject it, they mock God and His Word and are in open rebellion. As for the ones who are truly being deceived, I pray that they will come to a knowledge of the truth and reject this lifestyle.
    They are not at this conference to worship God as they are in open defiance against Him

  65. Jude,
    I was unaware that you were at this conference, thereby allowing you to directly judge as to the reason they were there, as well as what was taught. You must have spoken to these people to determine that they are “in open defiance to Him” and to know that “they know the truth and have decided to reject it.”

    There are people who believe differently on a whole host of issues that seem rather clear to me in the Bible…baptism, the nature of communion, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, whether to worship on the Sabbath or the Lord’s Day, women preachers, whether it is sinful for a woman to cut her hair and/or wear make up, (among a whole host of others.) If you disagree just open your yellow pages and look at the section under “Churches.”

    When you say “homosexuality is sinful,” please define that for me a bit more so that I can better understand where you come from. Are you saying that same sex attraction is a choice, and thereby sinful, or that just acting on those attractions is sinful?

  66. Hi Sven,

    When you say “homosexuality is sinful,” please define that for me a bit more so that I can better understand where you come from. Are you saying that same sex attraction is a choice, and thereby sinful, or that just acting on those attractions is sinful?

    Well, it’s pretty clear from Scripture that God cares about our thought life too!

    “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment.” (Matthew 5:21-22)

    and…

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” (Matthew 5:27-28)

    Think about it: Is coveting a sin?… or is it only a sin if we act on it?

    Nope, God cares about our thought life: COVETING is a sin.

    God gives us no wiggle room. He sees everything including EVERY thought.

    Personally, my thought life is terrible, and I fall far short of the mark. The Lord brings good news about repentance, though:

    “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:8-9)

    Bring your sins to the cross… there is forgiveness freely available for those who put their faith in Jesus Christ.

    In Christ,
    - Jeff H

  67. Jeff
    Thanks for your reply. If I understand correctly, you believe that just the same sex attraction in and of itself is a choice, and thereby a sin, of which the person then is responsible for. I must say that this is an extreme position to take. Let me explain why I say that. In the example cite the passage about coveting. No doubt, we all agree that coveting is a) a sin, and b) a willful deliberate act. In other words the sinner has a choice in the matter, and has decided that contrary to God’s word, in open defiance to Him (to quote someone from an earlier post) they decide to covet anyway. However, we really have no choice as to what we find attractive and what we do not. Think about it, when you see something (such as a car, a house, a new couch for the living room, a person that you meet) that is asthetically pleasing, do you think about it and then choose to “like” what you are looking at? My friends and I are similar in many ways, but there are things that they have chosen to have in their home that I find to be ugly. Some of my friends have wives that to me are not attractive. I do not have a choice in the matter, my brain simply says “I like this” or “I don’t like this.” In the same manner, the vast majority of current studies show that who we are attracted to (gender wise) is not a choice. I can concur, for I cannot think of when I chose to be attracted to women, I simply am. I am sure that your experience is similar. Is it a sin for me to be attracted to women simply because I have (admitedlly) lusted after some in my time? The attraction is not what is sinful, the acting on those attractions in a way that is outside of the lines of God’s Word is. Let me try it another way. An alcoholic has a desire to drink. It is not the desire to drink that is sinful. It is the acting upon that temptation.

    Aside from the thoughts I have just expressed, I cannot fathom anyone choosing to become the whipping child of the church. I know of more than a few people who loved the Lord from an early age, served Him faithfully in various capacities, while struggling with these issues. When they finally trusted someone enough to be honest and transparent with them about their struggle, they were castigated, told how terrible they were, informed they were an abomination, and put out of the church. This being in spite of the fact that they had never acted on the thoughts. They did not want to have them but they did. Some went to ex-gay groups like Exodus or Love Won Out, all prayed fervently, yet none received a new set of things they were attracted to. Their stories are heart breaking. The reaction of the church to them is even more heart breaking.

    Tell me how I am wrong? Tell me of how you chose who you are attracted to? Tell me of when you chose to be attracted to women? You of course will not be able to tell me of a time. I do not know why some people are attracted to the same sex while most are to the opposite. Some say it is genetic and some say that is environmentally developmental. I am not convinced either way. I do know however that it is not a willful choice. Thereby in my book being simply attracted to the same sex is not a sin. Acting on the attraction however can be the subject for another post at another time.

    In Him,
    Sven

  68. Hi Sven,

    Thank you for your response.

    we really have no choice as to what we find attractive and what we do not.

    I will cut to the chase by suggesting you are trying to drive the argument to the conclusion that ‘people who are attracted to their own gender were made that way and are therefore not responsible for those feelings.” If that is not a fair characterization of your position, please forgive me and straighten me out.

    If that IS your position, I would tell you that same-gender attraction in and of itself is a sin… We are all riddled with sin. We drink up iniquity — all of us!

    However, God is not the author of sin:

    “Let no one say when he is tempted, ‘I am being tempted by God,’ for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

    “Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.” (James 1:13-17)

    and…

    For I will proclaim the name of the LORD; ascribe greatness to our God! ‘The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he. (Deuteronomy 32:3-4)

    The good news, though, is that God will always provide us with a way out:

    “No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.” (1 Corinthians 10:13)

    Aside from the thoughts I have just expressed, I cannot fathom anyone choosing to become the whipping child of the church.

    Straw man.

    Besides, it does not matter what any man thinks of a particular sin. The only thing that matters is what God thinks.

    Tell me how I am wrong? Tell me of how you chose who you are attracted to?

    Tell me how lust in your heart — of any sort — is not wrong. God says it is.

    Some say it is genetic and some say that is environmentally developmental. I am not convinced either way. I do know however that it is not a willful choice.

    You don’t know what the causes are, but you KNOW it’s not a choice. Hmmm…

    Thereby in my book being simply attracted to the same sex is not a sin. Acting on the attraction however can be the subject for another post at another time.

    Then your “book” is not the Bible.

    In Christ,
    - Jeff H

  69. Jeff:
    1. I am driving the argument that same sex attraction is in and of itself not a choice. I am not saying “they were made that way.” The causes for same sex attraction are far above my pay grade–yours too for that matter. If you have this figured out, and have conclusive scientific evidence then please present it. There is not concensus among professionals who deal with this. Even “ex-gay” groups like Exodus, Love Won Out, and N.A.R.T.H. do not believe that same sex attractions are a choice. From the “Love Won Out” website:
    “Do you believe homosexuality is a choice?
    We do not believe anyone chooses his or her same-sex attractions. We concur with the American Psychological Association’s position that homosexuality is likely developmental in nature and caused by a “complex interaction of environmental, cognitive and biological factors” (www.apa.org). We would also agree with the American Psychiatric Association when it states “some people believe that sexual orientation is innate and fixed; however, sexual orientation develops across a person’s lifetime.” If you ever hear us use the word “choice,” it is in relation to men and women who struggle with unwanted same-sex attractions choosing to steward their impulses in a way that aligns with their faith convictions.”
    2. I am also saying that same sex attraction (the temptation to engage in same sex behavior) is not a sin, just as temptation in any other area is not a sin. That is the biblical stance on this unless you wish to insinuate that Jesus was a sinner, seeiing that He “was tempted and tried at all points as we” (Heb. 4:15.) On the contrary, the verse concludes, “yet without sin.” Your own quote from James drives this home: “But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.”
    3. The actions of the church are by no means a “straw man.” They are an indictment on state of the heart of the church. Where is the love that Jesus said would be our testifying fruit in the way we treat people? In the cases I cited, these were individuals who had not even acted on the attraction. When they reached out for help, they were cast aside. Surely you are not insinuating that this is how our Savior would treat these people. My recollection from the Scripture is that Jesus was the friend of the sinners and that he commonly was seen in their company.
    4. Finally, I do not appreciate the isinuation that “my book is not the Bible.” I love the Bible. It is a lamp to my feet and light to my path. It alone is inerrant and my all sufficient rule for faith and conduct. My interpretation of it is not however infallable. I fully recognize my need to study to show myself approved before my God, and to work out my salvation with fear and trembling. I have much to learn, and lean on Him daily, fully recognizing that His Spirit leads and guides into all truth. I would never make such an outrageous accusation as to say that you do not love our Lord and His word, or that “the Bible is not your book” yet you directly suggest that is what I am doing. Thankfully, you are not the judge of my heart. You and I are also not the judge of the hearts of the people attending this conference, or of Phillip Yancy’s. God is well able to do that Himself, He does not require assistance from you or from me. The job of convicting people of their sins, or for judging the contents of their hearts has already been taken, there is currently no job opening for that position.

    In Him,
    Sven

  70. Ooooh, I wanna play!!! I get to say both Jeff H. and Sven are wrong, but are actually more right than wrong in this case.

    I can go along with the idea that a person’s instinctive attractions are not a choice; homosexual desires have been shown to function on a subconscious level, often caused by some event in early childhood that screwed up the person’s sense of sexuality (like molestation) or view of genders (being beaten by one specific parent, for example). However, while the attraction may be hard-wired in, the sin comes long before the acting on the desire; it is the dwelling on the attraction that the sinning starts. The passage from James means that when an errant thought comes along, it needs to be given to the Lord immediately.

    Think of resisting temptation as an immune system. An immune system does not stop bad viruses from getting in (that’s for hygiene, but even that’s not 100% effective), nor does the immune system actively go outside the body to attack viruses. The immune system attacks the bad virus as soon as the virus enters the body; if it does not attack, the virus then starts its work of attacking the body. Damage is being done, and while the virus can still be fought off, it’s harder and the immune system dropped the ball at the first invasive line. You weren’t sick just because the virus enters the body. You get sick when the immune system does not immediately go after the virus.

    As for the conference itself (which was, a long time ago, what this thread was about), Jeff is right 100% and Sven is wrong. This was not a group of Christians who were meeting together to support each other as they struggle with homosexuality – something that is a need. This is a group that was declaring itself as Christians that were clinging to their homosexuality saying it was OK. THAT is the problem. I am not judging their hearts, but their actions and words that are public knowledge. A group meeting to declare pride in their sin simply cannot be pleasing to God. I wouldn’t call this Mardi Gras. I would call it worse! At least Mardi Gras doesn’t pretend it is righteous.

  71. Hello Sven,

    I am driving the argument that same sex attraction is in and of itself not a choice. I am not saying “they were made that way.”

    But that amounts to the same thing. A sinful, rebellious nature is what we inherited from our father Adam. We are in his likeness. The flavor of sin does not matter, it is all lawlessness and rebellion. And, God holds all of us accountable for our actions and our thoughts! Pretty scary.

    The causes for same sex attraction are far above my pay grade–yours too for that matter.

    You’re right… It’s establish and proclaimed by God Himself. God HAS established His Law.

    If you have this figured out, and have conclusive scientific evidence then please present it. There is not concensus among professionals who deal with this.

    What man deems appropriate or not must always be subordinate to God’s Word. I (and others here) have already shown you from God’s Word what this sin is and what its consequences are — the same as every other sin — DEATH.

    As for coveting, you argued that you only covet things you find aesthetically pleasing. You are missing the point: You are coveting! That is the sin.

    Whether you lust after men or women, you are lusting!

    We do not believe anyone chooses his or her same-sex attractions. We concur with the American Psychological Association’s position that homosexuality is likely developmental in nature and caused by a “complex interaction of environmental, cognitive and biological factors”

    You have clearly and consistently demonstrated the error of your argument: You have elevated “man’s wisdom” to a level where it presumes to trump God’s Word. As soon as you do that, you have failed:

    “Seek the LORD while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.” (Isaiah 55:6-9)

    I am also saying that same sex attraction (the temptation to engage in same sex behavior) is not a sin, just as temptation in any other area is not a sin. That is the biblical stance on this unless you wish to insinuate that Jesus was a sinner, seeiing that He “was tempted and tried at all points as we” (Heb. 4:15.) On the contrary, the verse concludes, “yet without sin.” Your own quote from James drives this home: “But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.”

    Jesus was tempted in every way, yet was without sin — FACT.

    Now: Is same-gender attraction part of God’s plan for men and women? No. Where do you think that bit of lawlessness comes from? Sin!

    The person is “…lured and enticed by his own desire…”

    It comes not from God, but from him (or her). Same result.

    The actions of the church are by no means a “straw man.” They are an indictment on state of the heart of the church.

    Yes, yes of course… It’s the Church’s fault. I’ve heard it said: “If there was a perfect church, we couldn’t go.” Christ’s Church is filled with sinful human beings who gripe, bicker, argue, yell, insult, and much more. Remember, we are on this side of Heaven, battling our own flesh. That is part of the reason why being a Pastor is so difficult. They have to put up with US!

    However, your rhetoric has me thinking that your agenda is more than addressing the callous comments from rude congregants. You see, once we open the doors of our Church to “I am the way I am” then where is the room for repentance?

    Going to Church will require you to get some thicker skin to be sure! But you first need to bow the knee of repentance to Lord Jesus and forsake your sin(s). Putting your full faith in Him, know that He can deliver you from even your sinful desires. That is what being “born again” is all about. But remember that it is also a BATTLE.

    Finally, I do not appreciate the isinuation that “my book is not the Bible.”

    I was responding to your assertion that,

    Thereby in my book being simply attracted to the same sex is not a sin.

    “Your book” — therefore — runs contrary to Scripture, and is — therefore — not the Bible.

    If you have a biblical “escape clause” please show me where it is in the Bible. One observation: You use almost no Scripture to support your conclusions, but instead have substituted “man’s wisdom” — that is fatal.

    As for judging you… I claim you are judging me. See, this leads nowhere. You know your heart. You know! God knows. Don’t try to wriggle free of His Word by trying to employ “man’s wisdom.”

    Also, see Rule #7, in the Rules of Engagement.

    Finally, remember Sven, the only thing that has eternal consequences is our relationship with the Son of God.

    A sinner, in Christ,
    - Jeff H

  72. Jeff
    I base my understanding on what I believe the Word of God teaches that sin is. Sin is the deliberate and willful disobedience of God’s directives. Therefore I reach the conclusion that the temptation to sin is not the sin, it is the act of sinning that is the sin. I stated the conclusion of the APA as well as ex-gay groups only to show that there is no definitive conclusion on what the cause for same sex attraction is. Certainly it is as a result of the fallen state of man in general. But what specifically causes some to have the attractions is unclear. The actions of the church actually hinder her ability to minister to those who have the attraction, but feel that because the Bible is clear in it’s dealing with homosexual acts, that they are to live their lives in celibacy. The question realy boils down to what obligation does the church have to support them in that commitment.

    Sven

  73. Sven,

    Your twisting of Scripture notwithstanding, you are drowning and clinging to a lead weight because you like the feel of it.

    “Working together with him, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain. For he says, ‘In a favorable time I listened to you, and in a day of salvation I have helped you.’ Behold, now is the favorable time; behold, now is the day of salvation.” (2 Corinthians 6:1-2)

    - Jeff H

  74. I would reference rule 3 of the rules of engagement but I suspect that there would not be much results from that. I will however reference #2, that participation on this forum is by choice. I entered into this discussion to have a dialogue with you about the nature of sin. Now that is clear and evident that you will not change your mind, and that I will not change my mind, there is no reason to continue having this discussion. Therefore, I am going to choose to do things which are far more productive with the time that has been given to me, namely to share the Word of God with the lost, and not just argue about it with the saved. This is not retreat by any means on my part for I still hold to my positions as biblically sound, just a realization that in the grand scheme of eternity my discussion on this board will have very little ever lasting effect.
    In Him
    Sven

  75. As you wish, Sven.

    I still hold to my positions

    You’re right, though, we all love our pet sins. It’s hard to give them up. It’s impossible, in fact, apart from Jesus Christ.

    In Him,
    - Jeff H

  76. Sven….. Let me ask you a question. Second time.

    Would a conference where hundreds or thousands of non-repentant adulterer’s get together each year to celebrate their pure love of cheating on their wives and husbands would that be ok too?

  77. You people spend SOOO much time addressing the GLBT segment of society and what you think the bible refers to as an abomination, while IGNORING everything that YOU DO that the bible calls abomination. If you are representatives of the church, oor if the church is anything like you, then I want nothing to do with it.

  78. James Nealson:

    It should be plain from the Biblical references given above that it’s not what WE think is an abomination, but what God has specifically said in His word. Where has anyone here ignored “everything that YOU DO that the bible calls abomination”? Could you be more specific on that? What abominations are we doing?

  79. DavidW said

    “It should be plain from the Biblical references given above that it’s not what WE think is an abomination, but what God has specifically said in His word.”

    I have heard this kind of statement before. When a person quotes someone, it is because they agree with that person or concept. So, I use the word “you” because I perceive that you agree with the statement that you made. Own what you say, don’t try to get out of sounding judgmental by saying, “God said it. Don’t blame me.” Don’t be a weasel. (note: I did not call you a weasel, I suggested that you don’t be one.)

    As for abominations; Lev18:19 sex with a woman during her period, Lev18:20 sex with neighbors wife, Lev18:31 profaning the name of god, Deut24:1-4 divorced couples remarrying, Deut24:13-16 dishonest business practices, Pro6:16-19 a proud look – a lying tongue – a heart that devises wicked imaginations – running to mischief – bearing false witness – a person who sows discord, Lev11:6-8 touching pig skin, lev11:10 eating shellfish, Lev 19:19 planting a field with two kinds of seeds, Lev12:19 wearing a garment made with two kinds of thread. There are others, but this makes my point.
    This whole issue is based on 5, maybe 6 passages of the bible. But really it comes down to 2 words arsenokoites and malakos. Malakos means SOFT. Arsenokoites is a compound word that means man and bed. In his book ‘Jesus, the Bible, and Homosexuality’, Jack Rogers has some insight on the words under discussion.

    “The debate over the meaning of these words illuminates the various methods that scholars use to define terms. Dale Martin disagrees with those who read the two words, arsen (male) and koites (bed), as one and thereby create a new term for men who have sex with men. Martin objects that ‘this approach is linguistically invalid,’ using as an illustration that the English word ‘understand’ has nothing to do with either standing or being under. He articulates an important principle: ‘The only reliable way to define a word is to analyze its use in as many different contexts as possible.’ Martin concludes, after analyzing Greek writings both secular and Christian, that arsenokoites probably refers to ‘some kind of economic exploitation, probably by sexual means: rape or sex by economic coercion, prostitution, pimping, or something of the sort.’ He further asserts that ‘no one should be allowed to get away with claiming that “of course” the term refers to ‘men who have sex with men’””

    Jack Rogers also adds;

    “In 1 Timothy 1:10, … arsenokoites appears in a list of vices. The NRSV translates it with the ambiguous word sodomites. Victor Furnish notes that the word sodomite is not used in the Hebrew text of the Old Testament, not even to mean ‘a resident of Sodom.’ It was introduced in English in a half dozen Old Testament passages in the King James Version of the Bible in 1611. Nor does the word appear in the Greek text of the New Testament. In 1 Timothy 1:10, ‘the fact that arsenokoitai [the plural of arsenokoites, which the NRSV translates as “sodomites”] is followed by slave traders, a group who exploited others, adds weight to Martin’s evidence for arsenokoitai as sexual exploiters of some sort, since the vices in the lists were often grouped according to their similarity to other vices on the list.’”

    It is believed that Paul ‘made up’ arsenokoites. If he really wanted to refer to men who have sex with men, then he could have used KINAIDOS. When people start with the various English translations and form dogmas that support their fears, then much trouble results. (as we can plainly see) It is blatantly dishonest. It is a misunderstanding and mistranslation of an ancient document written by some bronze age sheep herders.

  80. To the person who is known as “072591″; I just read your post. You make statements about the conference and those who attended. You made judgments about them. Have you talked to any of them to know what kind of people they are? Probably not. I suspect that you are not gay.
    I have a question for you; are you color blind? if not, you can’t truly understand what being color blind is like. I am color blind and people ask me all the time,”what color is that?” people are confused, because they just don’t get it. It is the same with being gay. heterosexuals just don’t get it. The biggest part is that they have a biblical bias, whether their understanding of the bible is correct or not.
    Another thing is the harm that has been done to GLBT people because of the preaching/hate speech that comes across the pulpit and over the air waves. It is fuel for the fire that entices bashing, hate crimes, suicide and suicide attempts, and murder. I see that as a very un-christian trait. There are only 5 verses that may or may not address homosexuality. There are many thoughts on how that act was expressed. In some cases it was not what we know of “homosexual people” that were behaving in the way that is being discussed.
    The problem with “beliefs” is that when you think, or arrogantly “know”, you are right, then you are not being as a question, and stop looking for answers. When you stop looking for answers, there is little chance that you will come to an understanding of people and things that are different than you. When this kind of situation involves people’s lives and relationships, than it becomes most troubling. Remember Matthew Shepard.

  81. James one question, how many times has God got to say something for it to be true

  82. Before what Is ‘true’? Why are “you” so quick to jump all over gay people, while letting the many things hetero’s do go unaddressed? I know of people that are in church leadership and pastors kids and church members in general that have done all kinds of sexual antics without a word being said. In Lev. 18 there is one (1) verse that addresses man on man sex, while there are 21 references to heterosexual behavior. I don’t hear the church raising a fuss about that. it is also very likely that Lev 18 was referring to fertility cult practices. Have you forgotten about two very prominent same-gender relationships that are exalted in the bible? Ruth and Naomi, and David and Jonathon. The verse that is in Ruth “Where you go, I will go…” is used in many weddings, but don’t forget that it was one woman speaking to another woman; same-gender relationship!
    You just don’t seem to understand homosexuality at all. it is a naturally occurring variant in sexuality; in animals as well as humans. It is completely cross cultural and is found in every social, religious, and economic status. What’s wrong with love? NOTHING. There is something wrong with rape, sexual exploitation, and idolatrous sexual practices. These are what the bible is referring to, not loving mutually consenting relationships between adults. If God doesn’t like gay people, than why did He make so many? If you have/had a child, cousin, friend, relative that came out to you, what would you do? Check out the DVD “For The Bible Tells Me So” to see what five families did. o say to someone that you don’t “agree” with them about being gay, is like me saying to you”I don’t agree with you for being white/black/Asian; or right handed/left handed.” It makes no sense.

  83. How much did Yancey receive to give that speach? 20, 30 or maybe 50 thousand dollars? And does the amount even matter? The fact of the matter is once a Christian takes money to teach or speak on a subject he becomes susceptible to the warning in I Tim. 3:3,8 – “…not greedy of filthy lucre,…” KJV.

    With the sale of books exceeding 15 million, the multi-millionaire Yancey has, by default, been set up as a teaching elder in Evangelical circles. Every Sunday morning, lazy pastors by the thousands all over America read the psyco-babble from his books instead of preaching the Word. (II Tim 4:2). From the pulpit, pastors recommend to the people of God that they buy Yanceys’ books instead of reading the precious Word. What does Yancey have that John, Peter, Paul, or James did not?

    I did not hear the speech nor did I read a copy of the text, but there is one thing we can all be sure of, Yancey did not read from Epistle to Romans, chapter one. We all may have sinners of various stripes in our churches struggling with various sins. Paul himself struggled. Read Romans 7:15. But we do not gather at conventions to celebrate. Nor do we hire multi-millionaire Christian teachers to authenticate our sin to the rest of the Evangelical community.

    Now that the 15 million book best selling Christian author Yancey has given his blessing on that sin, who are we to deny the position of youth pastor, or singles’ pastor or senior pastor to them?

    Peter warn the church that the day would come when greedy, so called Christian teachers would make millions of dollars off of the unsuspecting sheep. II Pet. 2:1-3 Read it in the KJV. I would venture to say 15 million of us have been made merchandise of.
    The Lord Comes
    Mary Natha,

  84. Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

    (Genesis 1:26-28)

    Pairs of men or pairs of women can’t accomplish this.

    then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

    (Genesis 2:7)

    So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. Then the man said, “This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.”

    (Genesis 2:21-23)

    Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

    (Genesis 2:24)

    Sounds like God has a perfect plan.

    And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one’s wife for any cause?” [Jesus] answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?

    (Matthew 19:3-5)

    Jesus reiterates God’s perfect plan.

    Hmmm.

    Just a rehashing of all of the tired, old, lame arguments and gross misrepresentations of the Bible from the militant homosexual agenda.

    In Jesus Christ,
    - Jeff H

  85. James, you have been brainwashed. How about reading the Bible for yourself with some humility and an open mind and heart. You sound like all others trying to justify your sin by twisting the Bible till you can get it to say what you want it to say. Yes there are many sinners in the church, BUT AGAIN we don’t parade our sin and try to force others to accept it. No matter how much you protest, deep down we all know right from wrong, up to when God starts to harden us for repeatedly ignoring the Holy Spirits warnings

  86. Mr. Nealson:
    Since you addressed me specifically, I will address you specifically. No, I am not a homosexual. (Good guess). I am also not an alcoholic, nor a wife beater, nor an adulterer. That does not mean that the Bible says nothing about those things.

    I am not passing judgment on anything I do not know. I am sure some of the people there are nice people. (I work for a supervisor now that is a homosexual, and I only know this because I had to deliver something to him at a gay bar. He asked me to not tell people I saw him there, and I honor the request. Nice guy, good boss, treats his subordinates fairly.) I am only looking at what is publicly known about the conference, and where they stand in comparison with the Word of God they claim to use as their guide to life. There is not merely a conflict, but a contradiction.

    “Another thing is the harm that has been done to GLBT people because of the preaching/hate speech that comes across the pulpit and over the air waves. It is fuel for the fire that entices bashing, hate crimes, suicide and suicide attempts, and murder.”

    It is what the Bible says. Are we to remain quiet because someone might have hurt feelings or even do something bad as a result? If preaching the truth was the cause of hate crimes and suicide and murders, it must be spoken anyway. God’s Word is to be proclaimed, and the truth does not cease being true because bad things happen.

    “The problem with “beliefs” is that when you think, or arrogantly “know”, you are right, then you are not being as a question, and stop looking for answers.”

    This sounds like a call for agnosticism as a moral imperative, which makes no sense. Should I then not have beliefs? Should I reject Jesus Christ because He has not proven Himself to your satisfaction?

    “When you stop looking for answers, there is little chance that you will come to an understanding of people and things that are different than you. When this kind of situation involves people’s lives and relationships, than it becomes most troubling.”

    I do understand many people that are different from me and how they can reach their conclusions. I make a point of looking from the perspective and skewings of those I disagree with, simply because once I know where they are coming from, I can show how my positions contrasts with theirs. I can, and have, debate for the moral right of the Nazis to commit the Holocaust (long story. I’ll tell you, but you have to pay in cash.) I understand the logic of the Ku Klux Klan, and their views of race are as logical as they are immoral. I do understand how a confused teenager can believe that an abortion is a morally neutral choice. Do not confuse morality with lack of understanding.

    As for Matthew Shephard, I hate to break this to you, but he is not a martyr of homosexual activism. He was robbed. Two men came up to him in a bar, offering him a 3-sum and drugs. He, being 19 – and therefore, stupid – went with them. The murderers admitted in court that he was targeted because he was young and could be enticed with sex. His homosexuality only made it easier to rob him; most straight men would no go alone with two guys offering sex, though they would go off with two women.

    This is not just a band of homosexual activists; this is a band of self-proclaimed Christian homosexual activists declaring that what the Bible says everywhere is immoral somehow isn’t. That is where my judgment comes in.

  87. Mary Natha, Jeff H, and jude newman. I ask again, What is wrong with love?

    Mary, if you did not ‘read the speech’ or care to, then how do you know what he did or didn’t say? GCN did not record the address because that was part of the contract. When I read your post, what I hear you saying is that you are jealous because Mr. Yancey is making 15m and you are not. I don’t know what Mr Yancey got paid, and I don’t care. It is none of mine or your business.

    Jeff H. Yes, it reads in the bible that god made them male and female, no one is disputing that. How else are humans (and every other creature) supposed to reproduce? However, this does not invalidate the love between same-gender couples. As for this statement “Just a rehashing of all of the tired, old, lame arguments and gross misrepresentations of the Bible from the militant homosexual agenda.” I could say the same thing back at you with the word ‘heterosexual’ inserted. But if we reduce this conversation to that kind of non-listening non-hearing spewing of words, than nothing will get heard. No understanding will be reached. Like I said before in my Jan 22,2011, 7:55 post “The problem with “beliefs” is that when you think, or arrogantly “know”, you are right, then you are not being as a question, and stop looking for answers. When you stop looking for answers, there is little chance that you will come to an understanding of people and things that are different than you. When this kind of situation involves people’s lives and relationships, than it becomes most troubling. Remember Matthew Shepard.”

    Jude newman, I have not been brainwashed as you accuse me. I have been set free. Furthermore, I have not specifically stated my orientation. You assume. Then you said “How about reading the Bible for yourself with some humility and an open mind and heart.” This sounds like you think I don’t read nor have I ever read the bible. It also suggests that I am not humble. Sounds like a judgment.
    As for this “You sound like all others trying to justify your sin by twisting the Bible till you can get it to say what you want it to say.” What sin? When it comes to “twisting the bible”, I could say that about most of the posts here from many of you people. I would rather talk face to face, because so much gets left out when it is only words that are read, which is what happens with the bible. A person filters what they read through their own feelings and emotions which taints their understanding. When they have a particular bias, say against homosexuality, then they can not go beyond that understanding or see any other way of looking at the subject. I used to be like you people. But I changed when I saw the harm that it was doing to GLBT people.
    I love Jesus. He is my savior. I gave my life to him way back when I was 21. He changed much about me, but he never directed me to change my orientation. Yes, I am gay. I didn’t want to say that right off, for fear that it would get in the way of the discussion. But, because of the view that you and other hold, I have left the church, I no longer call myself a christian so as to not be confused with people of your view. I have been abandon by long time friends and kicked out of a church, not for anything I might have done, but for simply saying ‘I’m gay.” I say again, What sin?

  88. You previously quoted Jack Rogers favourably, here is a rebuttal of his book. A lot of it he has not bothered replying to. http://robgagnon.net/articles/RogersBookReviewed.pdf

  89. This is not just a band of homosexual activists; this is a band of self-proclaimed Christian homosexual activists declaring that what the Bible says everywhere is immoral somehow isn’t. That is where my judgment comes in.

    AMEN!

  90. You all seem so bound and determined to criticize and/or condemn Phillip Yancey, me and gays inn general. I know what my relationship with God is like. I know what “that teaching” has done to me and GLBT people. It has driven them deep int the closet, out of the church, and in some cases to suicide. I spent thirty years in self-hatred, self-loathing, and depression. With acceptance, I no longer suffer from any of those tormenting conditions. I no longer have certain friendships that I had for fifteen and twenty years. I also have strained family relationships with certain members. There are churches that I can never set foot in again. All this for simply saying “I’m gay.” You (the church as a whole) have driven gays out, so they have gone to where they find acceptance. Some have turned their back on church/religion all together, others have found places like GCN. People like Yancey are seeking to bridge the gap, and what do “you” do, “you” bash him too.

    If you think this is a choice, than you are greatly mistaken. Why would gays put up with that, we would simply UN-CHOOSE. All this because of how you read the (mis)translations and misunderstood writings of some bronze age sheep herders that thought the sun moved around the earth. (remember Galileo) and that a snake and a donkey talked.

  91. All this because of how you read the (mis)translations and misunderstood writings of some bronze age sheep herders that thought the sun moved around the earth. (remember Galileo) and that a snake and a donkey talked.

    Well, finally there it is. If we waited long enough it would eventually come out.

    Mr. Nealson has finally shown his stripes and explained exactly how much esteem he holds for God’s Word.

    Another false convert who wanted forgiveness for his sins, without actually giving them up.

    No re-birth… No new man.

    We should keep him in our prayers.

    - Jeff H

  92. James,
    You claim that no one understands what being homosexual is like…I do. You see, I lived a homosexual life for nearly 20 years, 13 of those with the same woman. I understand the choice of sexual perversion stems from our own sinful hearts -Matthew 15:19, 20-’For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person.’ The word ‘sexual immorality’ comes from the Greek word ‘porneia’ and means ‘adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.’ { blueletterbible}. You can trace that all the way back to the root word ‘piprasko’, which means ‘sold under sin, entirely under the control of the love of sinning’. You see James, your forbidden lust and your love of it comes from within your own sinful heart, just like the heterosexual’s forbidden lust to be sexually active with the opposite sex outside the covenant of marriage. So, most could relate to your desires to fulfull your own needs, most lust after the opposite sex whereas you lust after the same sex…same lust, different gender.
    You also say you love Jesus and yet, you are gay. There is nothing ‘gay’ about living in rebellion to a Holy God and deliberately sinning against Him.
    The Jesus you love is NOT the Jesus of the bible James. You do not understand the new birth spoken of in John 3:16, nor do you understand the command to repent {Matthew 4:17: Luke 13:3: Acts 17:30}. You are not saved James, your actions prove so. You do not understand the biblical definition of ‘love’. Biblical love isn’t based on emotions, nor is it merely giving lip service. Notice this from the Lord Jesus Christ in John 14:15, ‘”If you love me, you will keep my commandments.’ An action performed proves the love…do what His word says. He commands us to repent and forsake sin, which is a change of mind leading to a change in living. If God has truly rebirthed you, then you would not be deliberately living in direct violation of His word.

    Notice these KEY VERSES in God’s word, ‘Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. -1 Corinthians 6:9-11
    Did you read that closely James? ‘You who practice homosexuality’ makes it clear, you who live in this perversion will not enter God’s holy kingdom. Also notice this ‘and such were some of you’; again, you need to read that carefully. For example, I once was living in rebellion to God, defying Him, rejecting His authoritative word and deliberately sinning in a perverse way, but now I no longer live practicing this perversion…why? Because God has done a supernatural, mighty work in me by re-birthing me from the inside out; He has given me a heart of flesh, ‘And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. ‘ -Ezekiel 36:26,27

    You state there are only a few verses that speak out against homosexuality…do you realize if there were only one, that would be enough? If God only spoke once against this perverse sin, it would mean you are accountable, period. Your soul is hell bound James, your perverse, rebellious lifestyle will bring you into condemnation on that final day. I pray God will grant you repentance, true biblical repentance; may He draw you to the true Jesus and save your deceived soul.

    This is NOT hate speech, as homosexuals are so quick to label. Do you realize that those who are going to tell you the truth are the only ones who truly love you? We speak God’s truth to you out of love, for the sake of your eternal destination. You respond with false accusations of judging, hate speech, etc. You are only shutting out truth because of your love of sin…been there, done that. I urge you, while you still have breath in your lungs, cry out to a Holy God until He saves you. It is a dreadful, fearful, terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God James.

    I have included a link to my testimony, I pray you read it, and that God will use it for His glory…http://iamhis-lyn.blogspot.com/2008/11/my-testimony-up-until-fall-of-2003-i.html

    Lyn

  93. Jeff and Lyn, I sense your compassion, I really do, as you seem to see some aspect of my personality, whether you understand it or not. Too much gets missed through writing that a face to face would reveal.
    Lyn, you said,”Your soul is hell bound James, your perverse, rebellious lifestyle will bring you into condemnation on that final day. I pray God will grant you repentance, true biblical repentance; may He draw you to the true Jesus and save your deceived soul.” All I can say is, that I HAVE been redeemed, saved, born-again; which ever word you like to use. It was (is) real, authentic, or any verifying word you care yo use. Like I said before, the day I came to Jesus was way back in 1977. It has been great. It was one of the five best things that has happened to me in my whole life. I was raised in a devote Catholic family. After i got in the military, I tried a few things like drinking, drugs, and a more colorful way of speaking, if you catch my drift. Then I met a couple of Christians, and my life was changed drastically when I heard and accepted the message of salvation. jesus changed my life.
    Things progressed nicely through the years. I sought out and participated in and had good standing in several churches as I moved around the country. I met all kinds of Christians. Their various “lifestyles” got me to wondering. If the gospel is so great, and if Jesus is who He said he was, and if God is who Jesus and the bible says He is, then why do they live, act, and carry on like they do? I went through a change of position. I have not rejected Jesus. I have rejected the fundamentalist view of an inerrant infallible literal bible. There are too many things that just don’t add up.
    Then, a couple years ago, I came to accept the fact that I am gay and that I always have been gay. If Jesus wanted to change that about me, He had over thirty years in which to do so, but he didn’t. No where in this blog , or any where on line have I ever discussed any particulars about my private life. So, to refer to, or assume that I have a “perverse, rebellious lifestyle” is the kind of statement that brings up a negative reaction in me. I won’t go into what I do or don’t do, all I will say is that the above quote is not true about me. As for spirituality, I am a progressive christian. Don’t write me off so quickly. Again, I sense your compassion. But I am totally opposed to the evangelical/fundamentalist view about homosexuality. It’s just the latest thing that the church is wrong on. Take an honest look through history and you will see what mean.

  94. All I can say is, that I HAVE been redeemed, saved, born-again; which ever word you like to use. It was (is) real, authentic, or any verifying word you care yo use.

    Jesus said in John 14:15, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”

    Like I said before, the day I came to Jesus was way back in 1977.

    So you’re an “inoculated ‘christian’.”

    It has been great.

    And yet, the Bible warns true Christians:

    Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. (James 1:12)

    But you sound more like:

    And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. (Luke 8:13)

    It was one of the five best things that has happened to me in my whole life.

    Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” (John 3:3)

    And…

    Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. (2 Corinthians 5:17)

    And…

    Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. (Matthew 16:24)

    I was raised in a devote Catholic family

    The pope can’t save you… only Jesus Christ can.

    Besides, proximity to a TRUE Christian won’t save you either… only Jesus Christ can.

    Neal, I go back to my comment on YOUR quote. You said:

    All this because of how you read the (mis)translations and misunderstood writings of some bronze age sheep herders that thought the sun moved around the earth. (remember Galileo) and that a snake and a donkey talked.

    You have shown your stripes and explained exactly how little you esteem God’s Word.

    Christians LOVE Christ AND love His Word.

    You are, as I said…

    Another false convert who wanted forgiveness for his sins, without actually giving them up.

    No re-birth… No new man.

    Deny yourself and pick up your cross and follow Jesus…

    - Jeff H

  95. Jeff, you’re hard core. I hope you are happy, or what ever word you like to use. The bible is what it is. The problem is that we make it something it is not. I have seen people committing bibliolitry; exalting the book to a level that was never intended. When one reads it with a hetero-sexist, (selective) literalistic, ethnocentric view, one ends up with doctrinal difficulties that we have here.
    Ya’ll can quit damning me to hell. (ya ya you didn’t sat it; God did. I know the drill.)

  96. James:

    Sorry I haven’t gotten back to you sooner, as I have been occupied with a family emergency. Thank you for providing insight into your views. Understanding one another is critical to good communication. From what you have shared, it appears you have been turned off to the Bible, and to true, Biblical Christianity, from the behavior you have observed/experienced from those who have CALLED themselves Christians, yet have been perhaps fleshly/worldly. And if that is the case, they will stand before the Lord for their poor or false witness. But I urge you not to judge true Christianity, or the truth and supremacy of God’s word to mankind, by the behavior of men.

    What everything comes down to is:

    1) Is there a God?
    2) Has He revealed Himself to man?
    3) Is the Bible God’s revelation to man?

    Due to the necessity of brevity here, let’s just cut to the chase. If there is no God, no one to judge us, no one to give account to, then when we die, it’s all over. No heaven, no hell (and I won’t even get into how that impacts the subject of Jesus), and life in the here and now is but a futile exercise. If, however, there is a God, then we would expect that He would reveal Himself to His creation. The nation of Israel, Jesus of Nazareth, the study of Archaeology and History, all testify to the accuracy and supremacy of the Scriptures (the Old and New Testaments, commonly known as the Bible) as being a non-human invention (super-natural), written over some 1600 years, on several continents, by some 40 different men, and all focused upon one central theme: the redemption of mankind from sin, and his restoration back to his Creator through the work of the God-man Jesus Christ on the cross (on which He died for the sins of man, and was raised from the dead to live forever, so that those who are saved will also live forever with Him).

    If the Bible is not God’s revealed word to man, then what accounts for it’s uniqueness, it’s accuracy, it’s life-changing power (testified by millions, over the last 2000 years plus)? If, however, it’s is God’s word, then it is supreme in it’s statements, judgments, and commands, because God is supreme. Thus truth on matters of faith, morals, sin, judgment, etc. are not found in man’s opinions, but in the pronounced declarations of our Superior Creator God.

    Thus it is the Bible, as God’s revealed word to man, that we hold to, and appeal to, because of it’s credibility and superiority. Have people called themselves “christians”, and been hypocrites? We all know those who have. That doesn’t change the fact that the Bible is still God’s word, still His truth, and we ALL will be judged by it. It doesn’t change the fact that God remains faithful to His word, remains faithful to Himself for Who He has said He is in His word.

    One of the most basic issues in the Bible is that sin has separated man from his Creator for all eternity. Thus sin is the critical issue that has to be dealt with. That is why Jesus came down from Heaven: to settle the sin issue. So we need to understand what sin is, and why Jesus had to come down, rather than man dealing with it himself (for if man could deal with sin himself, Jesus would never have had to die). And who determines what sin is? Does man? If that were the case, then man’s opinion reigns supreme, and who determines which opinions are true?

    Sin effects our eternity. And since God is the judge of that, He is also the definer of what sin is, and how it is to be dealt with. You may think we are “judging” others, but our desire is not to judge, but to proclaim what God has already judged in His word (the Bible). And that is part of the Gospel: explaining man’s sinful condition (how and why), that man cannot save himself so as to be restored to his Creator, but the good news that Jesus came to save man from sin and eternal punishment, and restore him to God. Resident within this is that man is given a new nature, repents of his sins (no longer lives in it as he did), and lives according to the will of the Holy Spirit now living within him.

    Thus, those who claim to have Jesus as Savior, yet refuse to believe His word, refuse to repent of their sins but choose to live in them, doing what God has forbidden in His word, are deceiving themselves. That is what we do not want for you, James. We do not want you to perish THINKING you have eternal life, when you are practicing what God Himself has forbidden in His word. We are concerned for your eternity. And that is why we pray for you, and are attempting to give you this information.

    “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 1Jn.1:8-9

  97. James
    Do you understand repentance?
    Do you understand homosexuality is an abomination to the Lord(Lev.18:22)?
    If you belonged to Christ, you would not live in direct violation of his word.
    Do you uphold his word as completely authoritative?
    Can you show me, from God’s word, where He says its okay to be a practicing homosexual?
    Did you even read all of my previous post? If you did, how did you understand 1Corinthians 6:9-11?

  98. James…. Paul says in Timothy that ALL scripture is from God. If you believe it’s nothing more than fairy tales, then you do not know of understand God. I won’t judge your salvation myself, but as Lyn, David and Jeff have shown…. the bible itself does so. Please repent.

  99. It is very evident that you people are very sincere, and that you hold fast to what you have written. I appreciate your concern. I do know what the bible says I have over thirty years of preaching and teaching under my belt. Truly, I understand. Five years ago, if I would have read what I have written (as if someone else wrote it), I would be right there with you saying what you are saying to that person. Really, I would. But I have changed. When I ‘came out’ a couple years ago, I HAD to figure out what being gay and Christian meant to me. I hadn’t done anything, just accepted the truth about me as to who and what I was. When I told my long time Christian friends they shunned me, rejected me, kicked me out of their homes, and eventually the church that I enjoyed going to. Not for doing anything, but for simply being gay. This was very hard, even painful. I read books and studied much to figure out how to proceed. In that process I found GCN. Say what you will. Say what you did already say, but I will not go back in the closet. Jesus has not condemned me, but Christians have. I could name several radio ministries here, but I will not. You know who they are already. I can not return to a life of lying, depression, and self-loathing. I am free in Christ as a gay man. I have read your posts, there is no need to say what you did again. It’s just that as a ‘progressive christian’ I see the bible differently than you do. You seem like intelligent enough people to know that the various manifestations of Christianity see the bible differently, other wise there wouldn’t be so many different forms. How the bible has been viewed has changed down through the ages, as well. It is, however, because of the common view that you all share that I have been driven away, and why I have a bit of a sarcastic attitude, and have set out on a different path. (There are things that I would like to share privately, but there is no way to give you an email without everybody getting it. So I guess that is out.) I must do the work set before me, because the anti-gay teachings set forth by the church is killing people; spiritually as well as physically. There has been too much power been put into the word abomination. Mixing two kind of threads, planting two kinds of seeds, and eating leftovers are all abominations, as well as a variety of other things. It means ritually un-clean. One person put it as meaning “yucky”. In closing; Jesus did not see fit to tell me to become ‘straight’. I was created this way. It is a gift from God.

  100. James
    You have ignored many of the posts here and twist God’s word to justify your sin, even though His word clearly states your sin will cast you into hell. Those who’ve responded to you here aren’t just sincere, we know the terror of the Lord and persuade men. God is holy and will not tolerate your sin; read 1 Corinthians 6:9-11: even you cannot twist the meaning. Not everyone has ears to hear: it is clear by your posts you do not. God states in his word he will destroy you James: you will not enter his kingdom…period. you are an abomination to him. repent and cry out to him before its too late
    Lyn

  101. To my dear brother James,
    I know you are hurting. I was a young Christian at one time in my life filled with the joy of my salvation knowing I was forgiven. In my immaturity I believed many fooling things and did many fooling things but I am old now and I still have the joy of the Lord but it is accompanied with the hurt and pain of living in a fallen world waiting for that blessed hope. Much of the pain I carry is not my own but that of countless Christian brothers and sisters who I have counseled and admonished over this many years. The pain I feel is in large part due to the rejection of the God’s Word by so many of my younger Christian siblings. I don’t know why but when a brother or sister rejects the Word I feel pain.

    James, please don’t reject His Word

    You asked me on Jan. 23 what I thought was wrong with love. Well I will tell you. The Bible tells us “love not the world”.

    John, the apostle of love wrote to us and said…
    Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
    For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
    And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
    I John 2:15-17

    James, are you struggling with “the lust of the flesh”? That is not true love as you can see by what the apostle John said, and he was the apostle of love.

    Ask the Lord to give you the faith to repent. There is power in repentance.

    Even so, come Lord Jesus,
    Mary Natha

  102. We seem to be going round and round. It seems like all you hear is that I am gay and nothing else I have said, with the exception of some outlandish statements (used to stress a point). I am in the kingdom, I am “saved”, I am child of the Father. Just because I don’t buy into a bunch of silly dogmas and doctrines that divide and destroy families, communities, and lives, doesn’t mean that I am some wretched unrepentant sinner doomed for hell.
    Some of you have referred to “my sin”, (Lyn said; “You have ignored many of the posts here and twist God’s word to justify your sin…”), and I have asked “what sin”. I ask again; what sin? Would someone spell it out for me? Were just not connecting on that point. If you think you have, well, I just didn’t see it in your comments. Please clarify.
    As for “twisting God’s word”, I have not done that. The plain text is the plain text. An ethnocentric view certainly twists what is written, I have heard preachers do that. Especially in the south, where I used to live, when it came to women’s issues. (that is a whole other thing and I am NOT going to get into that.) Do a study on the words, culture, and setting when the portions of the bible were written, then you will get a clear understanding of what is meant. When you go by English translations of words, especially when it comes to homosexuality, you cause all kinds of grief for those involved; hetero and homosexual. If we were talking face to face, we would both/all have a much better understanding of what we are writing here. Our emotions and feelings filter the words that we read and alters our understanding of those words.
    Mary, I am not hurting. Really I’m not. I did suffer for thirty years or more, being tormented by what I call “ghosts”. But the ghosts are dead. Since I came out [today is national Coming Out day by the way] they have not tormented me one bit. Why? Because they have no power any more.
    Mary said,”You asked me on Jan. 23 what I thought was wrong with love. Well I will tell you. The Bible tells us “love not the world”.” I don’t follow your meaning here. When I made my statement, I meant agape, philao (sp?) the kind of love a parent has for their children or spouse, or a person for a friend. Love is not lust. (The English is so limited sometimes) Some have accused me of lusting. I ask, how do you know? For all I know, you are projecting your problem on me. I’m not trying to be cantankerous here or pick a fight. I am doing my best to answer you statements. Set the party line aside for a moment, be bias if you can, and think about what you are saying to me, and anyone else who might read this. I will tell you, if I walked into a church and got spoken to like I have been heree, I would just walk right back out. I love the concept of the church. I love Jesus. I love what he has done for me. Yet, I am still gay. becoming a christian did not change that, like it did for many other areas of my life.
    Homosexuality is not a verb – it is a noun. Many Christians don’t know that.

  103. James: You said,

    When I told my long time Christian friends they shunned me, rejected me, kicked me out of their homes, and eventually the church that I enjoyed going to. Not for doing anything, but for simply being gay.

    At risk of sounding harsh, your friends did exactly what they were supposed to do. 2 John 9-11 says:

    Whosoever goeth onward and abideth not in the teaching of Christ, hath not God: he that abideth in the teaching, the same hath both the Father and the Son. If any one cometh unto you, and bringeth not this teaching, receive him not into `your’ house, and give him no greeting: for he that giveth him greeting partaketh in his evil works.

    You have openly professed rebellion against Jesus Christ by dismissing what His Word explicitly says. Even worse, you blaspheme His name by declaring that your homosexuality is a gift from God. So … why are you here? Either you are literally insane by devoting so much energy to the futile task of changing the truth, or you are deliberately trying to deceive others into accepting a false version of Jesus Christ. Either way, you are wasting your time.

  104. James
    Your sin is practicing homosexuality, which you have confessed. Did you read first Corinthians 6:9-11? Christ didn’t die so you could keep on deliberately sinning; you claim your forbidden lustful perversion is a gift from God; where is that found in God’s word?

    Unless you can debate from scripture, all your claims are not valid. Your time here is almost spent.

    Lyn

  105. James:

    Because you asked:

    “I ask again; what sin? Would someone spell it out for me? Were just not connecting on that point. If you think you have, well, I just didn’t see it in your comments. Please clarify.”

    I will take you at your word that you are honestly seeking to understand what we mean by sin, and so I will honestly attempt to explain it, in regard to this topic. When we speak of “sin”, we are referring to anything which is contrary to God’s word, and His way (which He has defined for us in His word). What I, you, or anyone else think is “sin” is irrelevant. So is the pronouncement of any group of men. We must appeal to the only One Who has the authority to define and describe “sin”: the Lord God Almighty Who is EVERYONE’s Judge. “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.” (Jn. 12:48). Since we will be judged by, and only by, what God has said in His word (the Bible), it then is the final arbiter, and most supreme authority on what sin is, and how it is dealt with. Thus cultural norms, ethics, or societal morals are totally irrelevant what it comes to defining/describing/understanding sin. And we do greatly err if we think sin is what is “immoral” or “unethical”.

    1Jn.5:17 specifically says that “all unrighteousness is sin”. “Unrighteous” according to who? According to God. Furthermore: “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” (Rom.3:23). We all miss His mark of perfect righteousness, whether in thought, attitude, speech or action. And thus we are all sinners. As I said before, we cannot save ourselves from our own sinful condition.

    So, back to what is unrighteousness, what is sin? Everything that He has forbidden in His word, everything that He says He hates and rejects is unrighteousness and sin. Being the ALL-Righteous God, He cannot allow sin, (spiritual) darkness, or evil in His presence. It doesn’t matter what WE think sin is. We are not our eternal judge. Only He is Judge, therefore, only what He has declared as sin, evil, unrighteousness is what truly counts.

    So, for the purpose of this topic, what has God said about the issue of homosexuality? Is it sin? Or does God approve of it, even giving it as a “gift” as you have said? Though we could look at many references, for brevity I will only bring up one:

    “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to dishonor their bodies among themselves. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,” (Rom.1:18-28)

    I hope you read these verses very carefully, James. God’s wrath is upon those who have turned away from His truth, which God has made very clear, even in His own creation. So God gave them up to the futile thinking they have willingly chosen to have, and in doing so they became foolish. They reject God’s truth and instead believe lies. So God gave them up to their own lusts which He calls “degrading passions”, and which He describes as “dishonoring their bodies”. Specifically, women “exchanging the natural function for that which is unnatural”, “and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts”. To anybody who reads this, it is pretty clear. It is describing homosexuality in no uncertain terms. He describes it as an “indecent act”, a “degrading passion”, and that His wrath is upon those who do such things. How else can this possibly be interpreted, within the context of the passage? Does the passage continue on with other sins as well? Absolutely. But for the point of this discussion, homosexuality is included in those things which merit God’s wrath. Would He bring His wrath upon those who were “born homosexuals”, and thus “can’t help being homosexual”? That’s not what He says here. If you don’t believe this, please read Rom.1 again.

    As Jeff said earlier, God created mankind male and female for a reason. His reason. Nowhere in God’s word is homosexuality part of God’s created order. His stated purpose of the woman is for the man, and the man for the woman. Any perversion of that, be it bestiality, or homosexuality, is a “degrading passion” because it is contrary to God’s established order. And since marriage represents Christ and His church in sacred union, adultery (or unfaithfulness in marriage) is also a sinful act, and specifically forbidden by God.

    You say, what’s wrong with love? Nothing, if it’s according to God’s truth and established order. I may love my dog, but if I love it in a way that should only belong to my wife, I have entered into a degrading passion, because such is against God’s order. Similarly, I love my brothers and sisters in Christ, and I love my friends of both genders. But if it is a love that should only belong to my wife, it is a perversion of righteous love, and therefore condemned as sin. No matter how I may “feel” about it.

    When Jesus saves someone, He forgives them their sins, cleanses them from unrighteousness, gives them a new nature, puts the Holy Spirit within them, and expects them to walk in newness of life, repenting of their previous ways, and yielding to the Spirit. He gives them the power to do that. They are not subject to the slavery of their flesh any longer. He calls them to deny their flesh (fallen human nature), take up their cross (upon which their flesh is crucified) and follow Him (in obedience to His word). And they are declared holy and blameless in His sight, because of His righteousness upon them. And the Holy Spirit within them drives them away from everything that is contrary to His word and His righteousness. That is what has happened to Lyn, as she has testified.

    In conclusion, sin is what God says it is. It is not what others say it is, what we “feel” it is, or what we think it is. I do not hate you, no one here does. Nor do I judge you,, as I am not your judge. I just want you to understand what God has said.

  106. James, I have removed your last comment, which was your final comment. You accuse us of being pharisees, even though everyone has argued from scripture. You do not defend your sin from God’s word because you can’t. You have no interest in biblical trutb: you make false accusations instead. As for your sin not being a ‘choice’, wrong ! I have already sbown you from scripture your error: go back and actually read my first post.

    May God have mercy on your lost and sinfil soul

    A former homosexual saved by the grace of God through the finished work of Christ;
    Lyn

  107. “And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.” (John 3:19-20)

    Nuff said.

  108. This all boils down to “Did God really say…?” It’s the same lie that deceived Eve in the garden of Eden.

    God clearly condemns homosexuality in Scripture, but then that crafty serpent slithers into our ears and whispers, “Did God really say…?” and deceives the lustful soul searching for a way to quiet its conscience.

    The black nature of this sin is worse when uncovered. He says that he (Jesus) is the truth (see John 14:6). Jesus also said God’s word is truth (see John 17). Here’s the kicker: The Bible says Jesus is the Word of God (see John 1:1-14 and the book of Revelation). By attacking the integrity of the Word, we attack Jesus, whom we will stand before on Judgment Day. Beware, & repent.

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