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What exactly DOES Hebrews 6:4-6 mean, anyway?

**I’ve said this before, but this time it will be enforced. Any and all further comments that do not deal DIRECTLY with the text of this post WILL BE DELETED. I will not give any thought to how long the comment is or how long it took to type it. And don’t try to post some long comment, with Hebrews 6:4-6 tacked on peripherally. This is final**

When dialoging with Arminians and others who teach that a person can be “lost” after they have been truly born again, one of their pet passages is Hebrews 6:4-64 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Now, at face value, it does sound like the writer of Hebrews (hereafter referred to as “The Writer”) is saying that a person can be saved and then fall away to the point that they cannot be saved again. But is that really what Writer is saying? No, it isn’t, and we will see why.

The first thing we must do in order to study this passage properly is to get rid of the chapter and verse divisions and any paragraph formatting. While these tools help us to find where certain passages are located, they were not in the original manuscripts and can, more often than not, interfere with our understanding of Scripture. What happens, many times, is our mind sees the numbers, separates Scripture from Scripture, and we put up mental walls around the texts and chop them up into separate thoughts, rather then seeing the constant, continuous flow of thought the writer intended. We also tend to chop paragraphs apart from each other, instead of seeing that the author was writing one long paragraph (for example, Ephesians chapter 1 is actually one long paragraph, rather than a bunch of smaller ones).

That said, in order to understand what The Writer is saying in Hebrews 6:4-6, we actually need to go back and start at chapter 5, verse 12 and read through chapter 6, verse 8. So, here is Hebrews 5:12-6:8, with no breaks–

For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

What is the idea that The Writer is trying to get across to the reader? Well, he starts off by saying For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. These people had been taught, over and over again, the first principles of Christ. By now, they should have had a better handle on the truth than what they actually had. But, for some reason, they were not growing in their knowledge, so the writer had to go back over it again. This is the state that many in the church find themselves today. They walk into a fancy building on Sunday morning, they sit in a nice, comfy chair, and a glorified pop-psychologist feeds them some regurgitated, ground-up mush that he calls a “sermon”–while neglecting his duty to take the people deeper into God’s word.

The Writer, however makes it clear that those who do not go deeper into God’s word will not grasp what true holiness is. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. How is a person going to know how to spot the heresies if they don’t have a full knowledge of the truth? Ephesians 6:14Stand firm therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness. Notice how Paul links truth with righteousness?

He puts the two side-by-side because they are linked arm-in-arm. Think about it: when Johnny Pewsitter gets a knock on his door, and a couple of finely-dressed young men present him with “the gospel that was restored by the prophet Joseph Smith”, and Johnny doesn’t know how to respond to their claims because he hasn’t been taught anything more than “Jesus loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life”–when Johnny hears this new “plan”, he’s gonna get sucked in and dragged away into error. It’s like Spurgeon said–“Discernment is not so much knowing the difference between right and wrong. It’s knowing the difference between right and almost right.”

But The Writer isn’t going to go back over those things that the Hebrews should have already learned. For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits. In other words, “Look, if you haven’t understood the most basic things, you aren’t gonna understand the deeper things of God; go back and learn them and get back to me.  Repentance, the uselessness of works, the resurrection–you know these things. And if you don’t, you should. But I’m moving on.”

And now, we get to the heart of the discussion. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. What is the first word in this section? “FOR.” What does the word “For” signify? Well, it means that Writer is using the previous thought as a springboard into his next thought. And if we read this in its full context, this is what we get: Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. So, what is The Writer saying?

What he’s saying is this: if a person has heard the most basic principles of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, if they have been taught that we are not saved by works or by baptism or by anything else but the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ–and after having heard and been taught all those things, if they “fall away” or “turn away” from these things (literally, “fall beside, slip aside, deviate from the right path, turn aside, wander, fall away from the true faith”)  and if they deny these things–then it is impossible for that person who has once learned these things, and has rejected them, to awaken themselves to their need for repentance.

This is a person who has given final, definite proof that he will not accept the truth. The phrase translated “once enlightened” is the Greek άπαξ φωτισθέντας (hapax photisthentas), and literally means “once for all enlightened.” They have heard the truth more than once, and in fact they have heard it for the last time that God will let them hear it. They have been adamantly stiff-necked toward God, and should they hear the truth 1000 more times, it will make no impression on their heart.

The Writer is not talking about a person who has been saved–he is talking about a person who was never saved to begin with. He is not talking about a person who at one time accepted these truths and is now rejecting them–he is talking about the person who never accepted the most basic truths of salvation in the first place. The one who is “falling away” heard the truth of Christ but never accepted that truth. They took in the truth of the Living Water, and it produced nothing but a barren tree, which is why he goes on to say, For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. Here he compares the one who accepts the truth with a tree that bears good herbs that are fit for use in the kingdom of God. But the one who rejects the most basic truths of the gospel is a tree that doesn’t produce anything but thorns and briers, and is only good for kindling.

“But,” the Arminian will say, “what does Writer mean when he talks about those who have become partakers of the Holy Spirit? Doesn’t that refer to someone who is saved?” The answer to that question is “No.” For there are many who may have claimed to have been saved, but were only fooling themselves and others. Those are the ones that the apostle John says went out from us but…were not of us. For if they were of us, they would have continued with us (1st John 2:19). There were many who went out, who even performed miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit of God, yet who were not truly regenerate. Or what else would our Lord be speaking of when he warns us that “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness’”? (Matthew 7:22-23). Or why does Paul tell us that you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him (Romans 8:9). Many there are who have had truths revealed to them by the Spirit of God, but who were never truly indwelt by Him and quickened by Him. Thus, they were ‘partakers’ of the Holy Spirit, but never children of God.

Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God…For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened…to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated…but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

I hope this has enlightened (no pun intended) those who think that we can lose what God has given us. Because we did nothing to save ourselves, and we can do nothing to keep ourselves saved, how could we ever do anything to lose what we have been given? John 10:27-29“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.”

91 comments on “What exactly DOES Hebrews 6:4-6 mean, anyway?

  1. Most excellent! I’ve been greatly encouraged by A.W. Pink wrote about this passage, as well: http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Hebrews/hebrews_024.htm

  2. The context of a passage is very important. I have seen some passages get mangled when I was in the pent/chars movement.

    One of my favorites is this:
    2Cor4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
    “if you don’t understand the KJV then you are lost”

    So folks don’t use a different translation other than the KJV or you are on your way to the lake of fire : )

  3. Ahhhh…! Thank you!

  4. Previously, I’ve gone over this passage several times, but never FULLY got it. I always felt like there was something I was missing, so thanks for this excellent post!

    Shane, yes CONTEXT IS KEY! I felt like an English teacher breaking the passage down. reading the prior passage and asking, who what, where, when and how, but it really helped.

    Manfred, thank you for sharing the A.W. Pink article. It was such a blessing and encouragement. I plan to go back and study the rest of his exposition on Hebrew.

    Revivalandreformation: DITTO!

  5. Pat,

    The Word has many passages that we must study in order to comprehend – even with the help of the Holy Spirit. As we are dull of mind and some things in Scripture are not readily grasped.

    I’ve found for myself that it’s helpful to keep in mind one over-arching rule: any interpretation of Scripture ought to glorify God, not coddle my flesh. By His grace, I grow and learn, but by bit. With much thanks to others to whom the Lord has blessed with wisdom.

  6. BTW, I used this post in our Bible study that I have every Friday, and it cleared up a lot of confusion with those in attendance. We have all wondered about this passage, and now because of your faithfulness, work ethic in studying the original languages and being submissive to God’s Holy Spirit, many besides our little group are a little wiser now. Thank you again.

  7. Very well written and thought-out post.

  8. Maybe you can tackle Hebrews 10:26-39 next?

  9. 10:26 For when we – Any of us Christians. Sin wilfully – By total apostasy from God, termed “drawing back,” Hebrews 10:38. After having received the experimental knowledge of the gospel truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins – None but that which we obstinately reject.
    10:28 He that, in capital cases, despised (presumptuously transgressed) the law of Moses died without mercy – Without any delay or mitigation of his punishment.
    10:29 Of how much sorer punishment is he worthy, who – By wilful, total apostasy. It does not appear that this passage refers to any other sin. Hath, as it were, trodden underfoot the Son of God – A lawgiver far more honourable than Moses. And counted the blood wherewith the better covenant was established, an unholy, a common, worthless thing. By which he hath been sanctified – Therefore Christ died for him also, and he was at least justified once. And done despite to the Spirit of grace – By rejecting all his motions.
    10:30 The Lord will judge his people – Yea, far more rigorously than the heathens, if they rebel against him. 32:35 , &c.
    10:31 To fall into the hands – Of his avenging justice.
    10:32 Enlightened – With the knowledge of God and of his truth.
    10:34 For ye sympathized with all your suffering brethren, and with me in particular; and received joyfully the loss of your own goods.
    10:35 Cast not away therefore this your confidence – Your faith and hope; which none can deprive you of but yourselves.
    10:36 The promise – Perfect love; eternal life.
    10:37 He that cometh – To reward every man according to his works.
    10:38 Now the just – The justified person. Shall live – In God’s favour, a spiritual and holy life. By faith – As long as he retains that gift of God.But if he draw back – If he make shipwreck of his faith My soul hath no pleasure in him – That is, I abhor him; I cast him off. Habakkuk 2:3 , &c.
    10:39 We are not of them who draw back to perdition – Like him mentioned Hebrews 10:38 .But of them that believe – To the end, so as to attain eternal life.

    This commentary was taken from John Wesley’s Explanatory Notes. It definitely bring the issue of living a holy, humble and submissive life through the power and direction of the Holy Spirit. Woe to those who demand room be made on God’s throne for them…

  10. This article was nothing but a strawman argument where the writer picks what he wants the opposing side to say then tears it apart. All the following verses suggest that a person may walk away, surrender, turn back from salvation. please explain the following verses
    Ezek 3:20; 18:24-26

    Mt 25:1-13

    Mt 25:14-30

    Lk 8:13

    Lk 9:62

    Lk 12:42-48

    Jn 15:1-6

    Acts 4:32;5:1-11

    Acts 8:9-24

    Acts 20:17,28-30

    Rom 11:13-23

    1 Cor 9:26-27

    1 Cor 10:1-12

    Gal 2:11-14

    Gal 5:4

    Gal 6:1

    1 Ti 1:18-20

    1 Ti 4:1

    1 Ti 5:8

    1 Ti 6:10

    2 Ti 2:16-18

    Heb 3:12

    Heb 4:1-2,11

    Heb 6:4-8

    Heb 10:26-31

    Heb 10:38-39

    Jas 5:19-20

    1 Pe 5:8

    2 Pe 2:1

    2 Pe 2:20-22

    2 Pe 3:17

    2 Jn 8-9

    Rev 2:4-5

    Rev 3:5

    Rev 3:16-17

  11. Excellent article. I’m printing this out

  12. That’s quite a list there Mark. Why do you want to call Jesus a liar and a failure by saying that His people can lose or forfeit their salvation?

  13. Strawman? How? And how have I said anything that “my opponent” would say? All I did was to lay out the text and allow it to interpret itself. My, but you seem a bit tense over this subject. It is an impotent God you follow, one who cannot even keep those who are His.

    Well, anyhoo, let’s take this laundry list you’ve given us and break these passages up into groups for clarity. It seems as though the mistake you are making with this laundry list is you think these are talking about people who are actually, truly, born-again and blood-bought. When in fact these are warnings for us who are TRULY in Christ to follow Christ more closely than we sometimes do.

    Mt 25:1-13, 14-30–Those who are expecting to enter the Kingdom of God but have not made themselves ready and will not enter.

    Luke 8:13, 9:62; John 15:1-6; 1st Timothy 4:1, 5:8, 6:10; 2 Peter 2:20-22–Those who hear the word, do enough “religious” things for a while but say “Eh, I’ve had enough of this. I want my old life back.” These were never counted in the Kingdom to begin with.

    Luke 12:42-48–These people “served God” for a while, even called Christ “Master” (with their lips but not their heart). And when they didn’t get the Blessin’ they thought they were gonna get, they go back to their old life.

    Acts 5:1-11, 8:9-24–There is no evidence these people were saved to begin with.

    Acts 20:28-30–Speaks of men who will come in and draw people away to follow their own false teachings.

    Romans 11:13-23–The people of Israel thought they were saved because they were “God’s covenant people.” Paul is saying that one is only “grafted in” by faith, not ethnicity.

    1st Corinthians 9:26-27–Paul does not want to become a hypocrite, and thus disqualify himself as a preacher of the gospel.

    1st Corinthians 10:1-12; Hebrews 3:12, 4:1-2, 4:11; 2 Peter 3:17–Calling us to examine ourselves to see if we are truly saved. (As far as the example of the children of Israel in the desert in 1st Corinthians–Christ had not yet come, they were under the old covenant.)

    Galatians 5:4–A person who seeks to be justified by the works of the Law has no part in Christ. They have not been saved, because they were trying to save themselves by their works.

    Galatians 6:1; James 5:19-20–Talks about restoring the one “overtaken in a trespass” into fellowship with the body–not talking about salvation.

    1st Timothy 1:18-20, 2nd Timothy 2:16-18–Putting those who blaspheme out of the fellowship and allowing Satan “to sift them as wheat” (see Luke 22:31, 1st Corinthians 5:5).

    Hebrews 6:4-8–Ummmmm….I think I’ve already answered that one. The original post could also be applied to Hebrews 10:26-31 and 10:38-39.

    2 Peter 2:1–this is an oft-debated verse, and one I may address in full at some point in the future.

    2 John 8-9–John is speaking of losing the rewards that we may potentially receive at the Judgment Seat of Christ (see 1st Corinthians 3:11-15; 2nd Corinthians 5:9-10).

    Revelation 2:4-5–Jesus is speaking of removing His glory form Ephesus, and closing the church there. He is not talking to individuals, but the body.

    Revelation 3:5–Does Jesus say He will blot anybody’s name from His Book of Life? If anyone’s name is in the Book of Life, it will not be blotted out. If anyone’s name is NOT written in the Book of Life, it was never there to begin with (see Revelation 17:8).

    Revelation 3:16-17–the church at Laodicea had stopped doing those things that were commanded by Christ, and were just going through the motions. If they did not renew their zeal, Jesus would let the church go down the drain (so to speak). He would not strengthen it, but would rather put it away from Himself.

    In this list, however, I think you have some typos. For example–

    Acts 4:32–must be a typo, since this verse talks about the people sharing all the things they owned.

    Acts 20:17–must be a typo, since this verse says that Paul called for elders of the church.

    Galatians 2:11-14–must be a typo, since this passage talks about the confrontation between Paul and Peter over Peter not wanting to be seen eating with Gentiles.

    1 Peter 5:8–must be a typo, since this verse only says that Satan is looking to prey on the weak members of the faith.

    Well, now that you’ve given me a list to study, let me give you one. Read these passages and see if these don’t say that what God started, He’ll finish. However, do not come back to this post to comment on this list. Further discussion on this post is limited to the content of the post, and the meaning of Hebrews 6:4-6–ONLY.

    John 10:2-5
    John 10:25-29
    2nd Corinthians 1:22, 5:5
    Ephesians 1:13-14
    Ephesians 4:30
    Philippians 1:6
    2nd Timothy 1:12
    2nd Timothy 2:19
    1st John 2:19-20
    1st John 5:3-5
    1st John 5:13, 20

  14. Just a word on this. Arminians say you can lose your salvation. Semi-arminians say you can never lose it because of a prayer that someone prayed(lip service) and when they go on to a life of sin they are now backsliden. Could it be that they were never sanctified and they were never sanctified because they were never justified. It’s not what we have done nor works which we have committed There is one who has Justified us. It is Christ crucified and risen that we put our trust in and not our works. And that comes by the Spirit in us that brings us out of dead works that quickens us from dead to living. You must first be born again. You can’t loose what you’ve never had. You can act like you do, but if it’s something other than or added to the work of Christ you’ve mist the mark.
    And on the other hand if you hate the sinner then you are blind and can’t see where you’ve came from and are no more than a hypocrite.
    2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
    2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
    2Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

    But he goes on with a warning and to some a strong rebuke!
    2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
    2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
    2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
    2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
    2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
    2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
    2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    Having a form of godliness; but denying the power thereof. Why because they were never born again, They came over the gate another way. Many are called but few are chosen and they show it by their fruit and that fruit doesn’t give God the Glory but only takes from his power. His power to save and call those whom he wills.
    Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
    This is why so many have fallin, they never recived grace. Their trusting in what they have done and it wont last.

  15. Maybe I could lose “my” salvation, and you could lose “your” salvation, but no one can lose the salvation that is of the Lord. I am thankfully saved and kept eternally secure by God’s gracious once-for-all gift of ETERNAL life in Christ the Lord. The salvation I received is not “mine” to lose or keep. Jesus Christ is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of salvation. He’s not weak, double-minded, or variable, so I am secure in Him, and always will be.

  16. Absolutely agree that if we are born again, we have the salvation. To see if we are born again or not:
    1 John 5:18 (KJV)
    18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

    So if we sin now, we are not born again, as is clearly shown. Are you born again then? If you are, you have eternal life, that’s very simple.

  17. Stand,

    “So if we sin now, we are not born again, as is clearly shown.” How’s perfection working out for you? That verse must be taken in context to insure proper understanding and we must recognize that each English Bible has weaknesses. This letter showcases a few of them in the KJV.

    1 John 5:18 from the ESV reads more truthfully: “We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. ” This lines up with other teaching in this letter – and the rest of Scripture. Such as 1 John 1:8 “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”

    John Wesley taught that Christians could reach a state of sinlessness – but he was wrong.

  18. How about this:
    1 John 3:4-10 (KJV)
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

    Is there another interpretation that shows born again Christians sin? Verse 9 is not hard to understand: Born again Christians DO NOT sin and cannot sin.

    I know a person who was lying in sick bed and not able to move, but he could think and pray. The whole time he was there he prayed, repented of his sins and asked God to heal and worshipped God. I don’t know whether he was healed eventually, but I believe he did not sin during the time he was on the sick bed. I hope we do not have to wait until we are lying on the sick bed to be able to stay clear of our sins. As someone says here, God is not a liar, God says you do not sin and cannot sin, then you do not sin, it’s the Holy Spirit who gives you power not to sin, or may be you are not even born again.

  19. Stand – you didn’t answer the question: “How’s perfection working out for you?”

  20. OK, lest this thread get hijacked in a different direction, here’s the bottom line: When we get saved, God does not just instantly transport us to Heaven. We still must live in these bodies of flesh, and we will have a war going on inside us until we die (see Romans 7:14-25; and Galatians 5:16-18). In fact, Peter sinned by removing himself from eating with Gentiles when the Judaizers came along. Are you going to say that Peter wasn’t saved when that happened?

    But, for Stand, yes, even after a person has been born-again we can still sin yet still be saved. 1st John 2:1–”My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” It is because of the fact that our flesh will continually war against the Spirit that God chastens us as children, which we read about in Hebrews 12:5-11. In fact, in verse 8 of that passage The Writer says that if a person is not chastised when they sin, then they do not belong to God. Hebrews 12:8–”But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.”

    I hope that clears things up.

  21. “but I believe he did not sin during the time he was on the sick bed”

    considering we can sin with our mind I highly doubt the man did not sin.

  22. Regenerated believers have God’s Holy Spirit dwelling within them. If you believe that they somehow become “unregenerated,” then what happens when they are cast into the lake of fire? Does the Holy Spirit go to the lake of fire with them? Surely people don’t believe that. But if you say that a regenerated person loses “his or her” salvation, then, to be consistent, you have to say that the Holy Spirit leaves the formerly regenerated believer. And if you say that, you are calling Jesus a liar.

    And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14:16-17

    Jesus says “abide with you for ever,” because that is how long the Holy Spirit abides with a person who has been saved. Not “until they sin.” Not “until they live in sin.” Not “until they walk away from God.” FOR EVER.

  23. We are sinners saved by grace. We have not reached perfection but we strive along with the Comforter as our help to put to death the deeds of the flesh. Yes we’re still in the flesh. And for sure we are not the Judge of the living and the dead. But when I see someone that is void of the Spirit it shows one thing, that fruit of good works that Paul spoke of in Eph is not there but something else Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Then one might say we sin that grace may abound, but God forbid.

    Those good works are a manifestation of His Spirit, and so is confession. Confess your sins one to another wasn’t spoken in a flippantly but was given for our edification that we still are in sin but not to let it rule over our mortal body’s. But some time’s it rears its ugly head the flesh we are…hence 1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

    1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    But is this a Christian;Eph 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. Yes some say that is the church now and live by it. Just watch the Love channel or TBN or CBN. And start sending in your money as seed. Now that’s blasphemy. the seeds we sow is love and grace. You will know them by their fruit!

    Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

  24. “Strawman? How? And how have I said anything that “my opponent” would say? All I did was to lay out the text and allow it to interpret itself”

    The text does not say,”The Writer is not talking about a person who has been saved–he is talking about a person who was never saved to begin with. He is not talking about a person who at one time accepted these truths and is now rejecting them–he is talking about the person who never accepted the most basic truths of salvation in the first place. ”

    You said that. You assume that the person in question was never saved. the text does not say that. Why do you think there is so much debate on these verses?
    This is called isogesis, reading the text with your mind made up already, because you have a theological bent that makes you think a certain thing is being said, when it is quite possible not what is said.

    and you do it again like yor response to Luke -you say”Luke 12:42-48–These people “served God” for a while, even called Christ “Master” (with their lips but not their heart). And when they didn’t get the Blessin’ they thought they were gonna get, they go back to their old life.”
    That is not what Jesus thought, otherwise why would He cut him in sunder? What was He doing in this act? An unbeliever would not need to be cut in sunder.

    Heb 6 is a stearn warning, clear and simple; “we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard (or read) lest at any time we should let them slip.”

    You may not have noticed, but you did not address the Ezek passage that Mark brought up at the top of his list. I would be curious your response to that one.

    And please remember: one does not make Jesus a liar just because they disagree, (shane)
    this whole comment section is for healthy discussion and debate, which is good for all of us; iron sharpens iron, sparks may fly but thats ok, we are on the same side.

    Love you guys
    Keith

  25. If you say that a true believer can lose their salvation then you are calling Jesus a liar and a failure. John6:38-40

    If Jesus loses one of those given to Him by the Father then He is a failure or He lied about what He came to do.

    You may not like it but when you say a true believer can lose their salvation then those are the things you are calling Jesus.

  26. Keith,

    Well, perhaps you can show me in the text where The Writer says he is talking about a saved person. Because it is never implied that the person who was “once enlightened” &c was saved. So then, you too are committing “eisegesis.” After all, the people in the crowd were “partakers” of the bread and fishes–but they wanted nothing more of Christ than a meal.

    and you do it again like your response to Luke

    No, actually, I did not. Because when one reads Scripture, one must understand it in light of other Scriptures. And the reason I can say, with full confidence, that the people in the referred-to verses were never re-born to begin with is what we read in John’s 1st epistle. 1st John 5:3-4–”For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world.” It’s very clear from the apostle’s words that if a person has been born of God, then that person will overcome the world. After all, he didn’t say, “Whatever is born of God might overcome the world, but then again they could fall away. It’s a tricky proposition.” So, if a person does not overcome the world, then they were not born of God–unless you want to call John a liar.

    you say”Luke 12:42-48–These people “served God” for a while, even called Christ “Master” (with their lips but not their heart). And when they didn’t get the Blessin’ they thought they were gonna get, they go back to their old life.”
    That is not what Jesus thought, otherwise why would He cut him in sunder? What was He doing in this act? An unbeliever would not need to be cut in sunder.

    One must be careful when they are reading Jesus’ parables. They are not, necessarily, a perfect picture of the principle He is explaining. That is why they are called “parables”, from the Greek παραβολέ (parabolē), meaning “a comparing, comparison of one thing with another, likeness, similitude; an example by which a doctrine or precept is illustrated; a narrative, fictitious but agreeable to the laws and usages of human life, by which either the duties of men or the things of God, particularly the nature and history of God’s kingdom are figuratively portrayed.”

    These people were not going to be, literally, “cut apart.” Just like when He said “If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out” He was not telling us to blind ourselves. The point Christ was making was the same one He made in Matthew 12:43-45–”When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first.” Peter echoed these words in 2nd Peter 2:21–”For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.”

    You may not have noticed, but you did not address the Ezek passage that Mark brought up at the top of his list. I would be curious your response to that one.

    Yes,you’re right, I must have overlooked them. However, after reading these passages, there are a couple of things we must consider concerning these verses:

    (1) This is under the Old Covenant, when “the Scripture…confined all under sin…before faith came, [when] we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.” Under the law which, as The Writer says in another place, “can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.” (Hebrews 10:1-4). But, even though “these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, [cannot] make those who approach perfect,” The Writer goes on to say that “by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified” (Hebrews 10:14).

    (2) Men–even unregenerate men–can have a form of “righteousness.” Jesus told us that our righteousness must be greater than “the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees” (Matthew 5:20). The Rich Young Ruler had his own “righteousness” (see Mark 10:17-22). Paul said that he was, before he met Christ, “concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless” (Philippians 3:6), and that he now longed to “be found in [Christ], not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith” (Philippians 3:9).

    And please remember: one does not make Jesus a liar just because they disagree

    John 10:4-5–”And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.”
    John 10:28-29–”And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.”

    Can we snatch ourselves out of God’s hands? If we think we can, then we are calling Christ a liar. Remember, eternal life is not “you go to Heaven when you die.” Eternal life is the life of Christ lived out through the believer (see Galatians 2:20-21).

  27. As a quick comment, you all are ignoring what scripture teaches. Paul teaches us that God calls things that are not as if they were, right?

    This also is a NT teaching. We also have NT scriptures that tell us to wait for our savior to bring us our salvation, to bring us eternal life, that we are receiving the end of our faith, even our salvation, that we are closer now to salvation then when we first believed, to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, that faith is hoping for what we do not see, who hopes for what he has, if we do not yet have it we wait for it patiently.

    Instead we make up three tenses of salvation which goes against what faith is and Paul’s comments on not hoping for what we have.

    We assume salvation is given at the altar or some point of conversion, but it is not. That is the beginning of faith not the end that Peter talks about.

    How can our salvation be closer than it was when we first believed if we already have it?

    How is it we contradict what scripture teaches and split asunder the word of God? If we study scripture out that God in our gospel calls things that are not as if they were along with the many verses on our hope of a coming salvation and eternal life at Christ return it gets rid of this debate. Scripture is no longer duplicit.

    We will be given our salvation at Christ return, hence once actually saved always saved. If we fall away from the faith before then, even after having Holy Spirit and tasted of the heavenly gift and instead trample the Son of God underfoot, we will have shipwrecked our faith and die in our sins.

    Bingo! No more division in scripture. You just have to get over the fact you haven’t got yet what you boast about and you do this by taking the whole of scripture, not taking half of it.

    I can prove to you through scripture that the imputed righteousness that we participate in, like our father Abraham, isn’t the end game. It is the beginning of the walking out of our faith. Hence the whole book of Hebrews talks about those who died in the desert because of disobedience and faithlessness. So we are encouraged to not be like them. This is why the discussion of not falling away from the faith.

    How is this narrator for not mentioning scripture verses?

    The question is will you argue back or will one of you ask me if I can prove in scripture that our scripture is not divided. Will it be tell, tell, tell or will it be ask?

  28. Instead we make up three tenses of salvation which goes against what faith is and Paul’s comments on not hoping for what we have.

    We assume salvation is given at the altar or some point of conversion, but it is not. That is the beginning of faith not the end that Peter talks about.

    How can our salvation be closer than it was when we first believed if we already have it?

    Actually, I think we are closer in agreement than you think. I don’t believe you will find any of us saying that “salvation is given at the altar.” In fact, we are vehemently opposed to what are referred to as “altar calls” and “sinner’s prayers” nor do we believe in “three tenses of salvation.”

    That said, if we are “in Christ” (Romans 8:1; 2nd Corinthians 5:17), then Christ is in us (Colossians 1:27) and we have been sealed to God (John 6:27; 2nd Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:13, 4:30; 2nd Timothy 2:19) with the Holy Spirit being the down payment God has given for us (2nd Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:14). If we truly have eternal life (John 20:30-31; 1st John 5:13, 20), then our life is not our own, but Christ lives through us (Galatians 2:20-21).

    We will not be perfected until Christ delivers all things to God the Father (1st Corinthians 15:24-27). And it will only be when we are conformed to the image of Christ (Romans 8:29; Philippians 3:21) that we will see Christ in all of His glory (1st John 3:2).

    the imputed righteousness that we participate in, like our father Abraham, isn’t the end game. It is the beginning of the walking out of our faith.

    True indeed. If we have been bought by God, we belong to Him and His Spirit dwells within us (1st Corinthians 6:19; Romans 8:9).

    It is Christ who begins and finishes our faith (Hebrews 12:2)–what God has begun, He will complete at the last Day (Philippians 1:6).

    And while we still walk around in these bodies of flesh, we serve the Living and True God (1st Thessalonians 1:9; Romans 6:22; Philippians 2:12), salvation becoming complete when God makes all things new (Revelation 21:5).

    Does it sound like we are both on the same page?

  29. We may have some agreement, but we do not agree on the hope of salvation. I without references pointed to a lot of scripture that talks about our hope of salvation. I would never say I am saved, but have a hope of salvation. You would say you are saved.

    I would never says someone has lost their salvation, rather they shipwrecked their faith that could have saved them.

    So the writer of Hebrews is not talking of someone who has been saved but has the promise of salvation. They heard the truth and yes they accepted them and lived by them. These who are grafted into the righteousness that Abraham had credited to him are the ones the writer is talking about. These are those who like Abraham are credited righteousness because they believe the promises of God.

    However when they do not continue in it they fall from grace, which too is a warning in scripture to believers who are not saved, but have a hope of salvation.

    I would never say that we can loose our salvation. When Christ comes back bringing salvation, who can take it away? At that point we are eternally secure. Until then we all need to be mindful not to fall, like those in the desert the writer warns us about. They fell because of faithlessness and disobedience. They rejected the righteousness from God that could have been lived out unto salvation.

    Are you saying you agree with that? I can prove all of this from scripture if you disagree.

    I am putting a post together that will deal with this a little more clearly if you are interested.

  30. I without references pointed to a lot of scripture that talks about our hope of salvation.

    Yes, I know those were Scriptures. I’ve read them before.

    I would never say I am saved, but have a hope of salvation. You would say you are saved.

    Yes I would, because it is biblical. While there are not different “tenses” or “levels” of salvation, those who are in Christ are, nonetheless, saved. The Scriptures say that we “have been saved” and that we “are saved”–but also that we “will be saved.” What that means is that even though our salvation has not been perfected at this time, we have been saved for that last day–that is, the Day of Jesus Christ, when our salvation shall be complete.

    To wit–
    Acts 2:47–And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.
    Romans 8:24–For we were saved in this hope.
    1st Corinthians 1:18–For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
    2nd Corinthians 2:15–For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing.
    Ephesians 2:4-5–But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).
    Ephesians 2:8–For by grace you have been saved through faith…
    1st Timothy 1:8-9–share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling.
    Titus 3:5–not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.
    1st Peter 1:8-9–Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

    If you notice, all of these verses talk about our salvation using either the past, present, or perfect tense. That is, it happened at a point in the past, and it is still going on today. That said, the salvation we have is not yet perfect/complete, as the following passages all refer to our salvation as being future.

    We see–
    Matthew 10:22, 24:13–”But he who endures to the end will be saved.”
    Romans 5:9-10–Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
    Romans 13:11–And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.
    1st Corinthians 5:5–Deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
    Hebrews 9:18–To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time…for salvation.
    1st Peter 1:4-5–to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

    Our salvation will be perfected/completed in the Day of Christ. For our salvation cannot be complete, and we cannot receive our perfect bodies, until all sin has been purged, and all things are made new. So, we wait for the hope of our completed salvation.

  31. Glasseyedave, I would like for you to see something. I get that particular part of Phil.2:12 from a lot of people that I know. Look at the fallowing verse.Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
    Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
    Notice that it is God that is doing something that you or I who couldn’t do in and of our selves. That is to work the works that He accomplishes in us of his own will. He works in us to do His good pleasure. And that gives me such hope. Hope for what? That one day I will see His face in Christ Jesus.(1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.) And as Paul tells us in Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
    Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
    Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior;
    Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
    It’s all a work of God that calls us to Himself, For we love Him because He first loved us. He is the author and the finisher of our faith. And that not of our selves as Paul tells us it is a gift of God. Yes my salvation is sure as sure as his word! And my hope is in the great work that He accomplish in His Son. Oh how glorious is his name.

  32. Fourpointer,

    You understand the different tenses of salvation to mean a perfecting of salvation that comes to completion when Christ returns? I too know that scripture speaks as if we are saved, are being saved and will be saved.

    However, I did not see you quote some very interesting verses that are the cornerstone of our faith. First one being Paul taught our God is a God who calls things that are not as if they were. This is a NT teaching, doctrine if you will, with Abraham as our example, yet nobody, I mean nobody applies this to their gospel. But somehow it is there.

    (Rom 4:17-18 NIV) As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed–the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were. Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

    Paul uses Abraham to show the extreme of God calling things that are not as if they were. He didn’t say you will be, He said I have made you. Paul says God credited him righteousness because he believed against all hope that what God said would come to pass. This example was given to show us that we are to have the faith of Abraham concerning our promises from God.

    Promises are called promises because they are not yet fulfilled. Who looks to a promise that is fulfilled? Or as Paul says concerning our promises, our hope, who hopes for what he has?

    (Rom 8:24-25 NIV) For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

    Concerning our promises, our gospel, we were “saved” into a hope, into a promise and Abraham is our example of not having what was promised, yet God spoke to him as if it were. Abraham didn’t hope for what he had, he hoped for what he didn’t have. But we today say we have it, we hope for what we call the perfecting of the saints.

    Another big NT doctrine is what faith is. We see it in Abraham, that he hoped for what he did not see, because God spoke it as if it were. He was certain of the one who made the promise and this gave him his hope. And this is what he was commended for.

    (Heb 11:1-2 NIV) Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.

    But we today excuse, ignore, toss aside these fundamental truths about our promises, again they are unfulfilled promises, our hope, again something we hope for because we have it not.

    We say we have it, in the face of what we are taught in scripture and in the face of our father Abraham and declare we have faith, when we do not hope for our promise of salvation. I have to ask, are you greater than our father Abraham who is our example of faith?

    If we understand that faith is really hoping for what we do not have, like our father Abraham, then we know we will be saved at His coming. Hence while we walk this earth we can fall away but never loose our salvation if we backslide, we never had it to lose. God was calling what was not as if it were in us. But when He does come with salvation, we can never lose it, hence from then on we are eternally secure. Now were is this great division in scripture that men have made. It is gone not based on me, but on what we are taught in scripture but do not apply to ourselves.

    Facts:

    No one hopes for what he has.

    No one hopes in promises that are already fulfilled.

    No one can say they have faith, when they say they do not hope for it, they already got that.

    Study it out and watch this split in God’s word, that man has made, dissolve away. God’s word is not duplicit.

    Thanks for your time and the honest conversation.

  33. Jonathan,

    Please look at my comment to fourpointer for they also will apply to you. I want you to understand that I am not disagreeing with you that God has imputed to us righteousness, nor am I disagreeing with you that Christ has done the redeeming work on the cross for us and when we leave a life of sin we are being redeemed. What I am saying is Christ made the way but He has not granted us our salvation, this it is yet coming,

    You quote Titus 3:5-7 and ignore what you just said to me. We have become the heirs according to not the actual, but the hope of eternal life. Christ is bringing back to us our salvation. Paul says we have been saved into a hope. God has moved us from hopelessness to hopeful.

    Look at the covenant that God gave Abraham and see a people that God imputed righteousness with a seal of circumcision. That was God’s grace, but look what they did with it. Study it, it is NT teaching right there in front of us.

    I have challenged another Calvinist site and those readers to explain James 2:24 and no one will. It the sound of crickets.

    Then I challenge them to reconcile the teaching of James (it is not by faith alone but works that a man is justified) to Paul (it is by grace and not works). Again only the sound of crickets. I told them I would and it should be done here mid next week. This is based off of what I have been advocating here about our father Abraham. I really want you to look at my comments to fourpointer, study Gods word and seek Him honestly and ask Him yourself about these things.

    Thanks for the chat

  34. OK, so when God uses words like “was” or “were” or “has been” or “have been”–when He uses any verb in the present or past tense, we can assume that God doesn’t understand how to speak in the proper tense. After all, that’s why He told the angel to tell Mary “The Holy Spirit has come upon you” (Luke 1:35), and why He said to Jeremiah, “They are my people, and I am their God” (Jeremiah 32:38). Nah, I think God is more than capable of assigning the proper tense to verbs.

    I assume that you would read Romans 8:29-30 like so: “For whom He gave the promise that they would be foreknown, He also gave the promise that they would be predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He gave the promise that they would be predestined, these He also gave the promise that they would be called; whom He gave the promise that they would be called, these He also gave the promise that they would be justified; and whom He gave the promise that they would be justified, these He also gave the promise that they would be glorified.”

    And when Paul says that “Jesus died for our sins” what he really meant was “Jesus gave the promise that He would die for our sins.” Are you going to take this notion that when the Scriptures say that something has happened–well, it hasn’t actually happened, it’s just going to happen. One needs to be careful in building an entire doctrine out of one part of one verse.

    Here’s the bottom line: We are given the promise of salvation–because we have been given salvation! Just like if you call the bank, they can say “We promise you will have $1000 in your account at the end of the day” because you have $1000 in your account right now! What, you think the bank is saying that because they are going to put $1000 in your account? NO! They can promise that money will be there because it already is!

    Well, this has been an interesting discussion, but if the only answer that you can give is “God calls things that are not as though they were” and brag about how brilliant you think you are, and how much more you know than us knuckle-dragging Calvinists, then you will need to find another platform for your warped views of Scripture. I’ve checked you out on other sites, and from the comments that I’ve seen you leave on those sites, you are the kind of person who will not answer the Scriptures others give you–you simply stick with the ones you know and boast about your so-called vast intelligence. Well, you can do that somewhere else.

    Farewell.

  35. “I would never says someone has lost their salvation, rather they shipwrecked THEIR faith that could have saved them.” (quote from glasseyedave, emphasis added)

    “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith OF Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” (Galatians 2:16, emphasis added)

    “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” (Galatians 2:20, emphasis added)

    “But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith OF Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.” Galatians 3:22, emphasis added

    “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith OF Jesus.” (Revelation 14:12, emphasis added)

    The word “of” lets us know exactly Whose faith we are dependent upon for salvation. Many people vainly seek strength in their own faith, and are discouraged when they are lacking. Others point to once-faithful Christians and pronounce them rejected of God due to a perceived lack of faithfulness in their lives. Jesus Christ is the only One Who is TRULY 100% FAITHFUL, and because of His unchanging, unwavering, unyielding faithfulness, those whom He graciously saves are kept eternally secure.

  36. I keep waiting for someone to reference Eph. 2:8-9 in this thread…

    Oh, look! There it is!

    In Him,
    CD

  37. Oops, I overlooked FP’s prior reference! Oh well, I can never get enough of that passage!

  38. Yeah, ya see CD, in that passage, God couldn’t figure out how to say “By grace you have been given the promise of being saved one day” so He had to say the next best thing, which is “by grace you have been saved.” He hasn’t gotten that whole grammar thing down yet **rolls eyes**

  39. Thank you so much for this explanation. You said at the end about the the verse that says, “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness’”? (Matthew 7:22-23) How do we know if we are saved then? People have said that if I am worried then I am but is that biblical, I have fear of falling away especially because I will have certain times that my mind will have really doubtful thoughts that I feel like I already turned away or fell away in my mind or heart. How do we know if we can partake in the work of the Holy Spirit and call Him LORD, how do we know if we are truly Gods child? The bible says that, “Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God” If people say Lord , Lord and they are not saved, how do we know if we are? I have thought blasphemous thoughts about God and Jesus I don’t know why I do it because all I want is to really believe but at times I doubt or think what if this is just a story but then I feel bad what do I do?????????

  40. Chantale,

    It is not so bad to ask “How do I know I’m saved?” In fact, it is better that one continues to examine themselves rather than go around with a false sense that they are saved. I cannot say one way or the other, that is up to God, but there are Scriptures we can study that can be of immense help.

    First, I would point you to 2nd Corinthians 13:4-5–”For we also are weak in Him, but we shall live with Him by the power of God toward you. Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.” Are we going to have thoughts come into our head that shouldn’t be there? Yes. Are we going to have times when we do or say something we shouldn’t? Of course. But, if those things are the exception rather than the rule, then chances are you are born-again.

    Next, go to 1st John. There are (at least) 5 passages in 1st John that will help us to know if we have eternal life (1st John 1:6-7, 1st John 1:8-9, 1st John 2:4-5, 1st John 2:9-10, 1st John 2:24-25, 1st John 3:18-20. In fact, John himself says that is the reason he wrote that epistle. 1st John 1:4–”And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.” 1st John 5:13–”These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.” We will never be perfectly sinless, but that is why Jesus said “Blessed are those who mourn”–those who mourn over their sins and see their sins for what they are, and who grieve over the times they disobey. I dare say, if you didn’t feel bad about having those thoughts, then you could question your salvation.

    Also, remember that even those closest to Christ had times of doubt. John the Baptist, Simon Peter, even His brothers and sisters. They had their moments when they doubted. The father of the epileptic boy cried out “Help me in my unbelief.” But it is by examining ourselves and by confessing our faults to God that we grow closer to Him, that He may continue drawing us to Himself, and away from those things that grieve Him.

    I hope this helps; we will pray for you.

  41. If a person believes what Jesus says is truth and that He would not lie then I think that would be a good indication of wether or not they are saved.
    If a person depends upon and trusts the completed work of Jesus for their salvation then I think that would be a good indication of their salvation.
    If a person knows that within them dwells no good thing and they depend wholy upon Christ I would think that would be a good indication of them being saved.

    For me the “ahaaa” moment of realizing my security in Jesus was when I decided that I would take Him at His word. He done the work and if I just trust in Him then I am saved.

    “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness’”? (Matthew 7:22-23″

    If you will notice that those people were trusting in what they do to save them. They were saying “but we done this and we done that”. If they were truly saved they probably would have said something to the effect of “we trusted You alone, we know there is nothing we can do to merit our salvation”

  42. The moment came for me when I realized that if I went to heaven right now, and God asked me, “Why should I allow you into heaven?” I know that my answer would have NOTHING to do with me. It is all Christ. When this reality became a reality for me, I knew that something had changed. So many people I ask this of, always answer with their works.

    If the foundation they base their salvation on is what they do and what they think the have to do in order to get into heaven, they are in trouble.

  43. Amen brothers FP, Shane, and R&R!

  44. Glasseyedave and anyone else, Go and study what Romans says about sanctification. Which is the working of the Holy Spirit in us. Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    What is he saying there GED. He’s telling them that they must be born again. Because it is The kindness of God that leads us to repentance Rom.2:4. And he opened my heart to who I am before him. Being without hope in and of my self. He dragged me to him self as John 6:44. to Christ. In so doing he showed me my true state. Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

    Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
    Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

    So see there is proof that there is a working in the child of God by his Spirit. They are his in every way even calling us son’s, those who were called to repentance through his Kindness called according to is purpose.

    I am assured because of his Spirit. Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

    Now what he is talking about in James is the proof of that Spirit working in a man as well.Jam 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. As Christ said If you love me you will keep my commandments. And we know that we love him because he First loved us. Jam 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

    What those of you who think that you can loose your salvation are showing is a lack faith. I have heard it before. You lack and do error form the truth. Many of you who see their works as a way to Gods throne miss the mercy seat. You have by past the grace by placing your works of righteousness before God as a way to his kingdom. Jam 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    They show that through lack of faith in the power of Gods saving grace and think it must be something that is accomplished in us by our works. But it was by grace that God even came to Abraham in the first place. Because Abraham wasn’t looking for God. God found him; Jos 24:2 And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.

    Jos 24:3 And I took your father Abraham from the other side of the flood, and led him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his seed, and gave him Isaac.

    But where do you stand on faith alone or something else.2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
    2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
    2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
    2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
    2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
    Yes they take from that power and give it to them selves in oh so many ways but we know.Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
    Not our workmanship, but His!

    Jam 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
    Jam 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
    Jam 1:7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

    Soli Deo Gloria

  45. Heb 10:15 And the Holy Spirit also beareth witness to us; for after he hath said,
    Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, saith the Lord: I will put my laws on their heart, And upon their mind also will I write them; then saith he,
    Heb 10:17 And their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

  46. So far, no. Of course, those who died before Christ only had the promise of the coming Savior, although they too were justified by faith just as we are. Abraham (and the others) only saw Christ from afar off, but what was once only a mystery has now been revealed in full.

  47. Christ is our righteousness. What is it you are trying to get across? That Calvinist are wrong and are of a cult nature as some have told me. The fact is I didn’t get my understand of the bible from reading books on Calvin, but from reading the word of God.
    Your here trying to refute that doctrine. You need to get in the bible and search the scriptures. God is sovereign in all things and as Paul would say that of God in Rom 9:18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
    Or as Nebuchadnezzar was taught that our righteousness is nothing Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
    Is God the same then as today?
    Go read 1 Peter 1. and look at how he put it in order of how our salvation comes.
    1Pe 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. 1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    Its not a dead or worldy hope but one that is alive.1Pe 1:23 having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth.
    But as for your giving all the glory to the Lord of the universe I can’t make you do that. What are you saving some of the glory for your self, that all so powerful free will that pulls us up by our own strength and brings us to God. No it’s not what the bible tells me.
    2Ti 2:25 in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,
    2Ti 2:26 and they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will.

    Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ:

    Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:

    Eph 1:5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved:
    Eph 1:7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

    The scriptures may in deed be long but in them is all truth.

  48. The Old Testament is full of types and shadows of what was to come, but there is the rub: you cannot drag a person from the OT, shine a light on him, and say: “See, that’s us.”

    You risk blurring the lines with your “through faith” quote mining suggestion. Search the Bible for “shoes,” Abraham wore them and so do we, therefore…

    I’m using hyperbole here to illustrate the point.

    We must remember Titus 3:4-7, “But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”

    By faith we are saved, and God gives us the faith.

    Now that the ‘horse’ is in front of the ‘cart,’ we can properly (using good hermeneutics) understand the role of works:

    Out of gratitude to the Son, we perform the good works that are given to us, as found in Ephesians 2:10, “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

    Blessings,
    - Jeff H

  49. Four pointer,

    thank you sooo much!!!That was very encouraging and I seem to feel much better!

  50. While Abraham only had the PROMISE, we have now seen the salvation of God REVEALED, and can now be partakers in eternal life, even while we live in these bodies of flesh. “These things I write that you may KNOW that you HAVE eternal life” (1st John 5:13). Those in the Old Testament had the SHADOW, but now we have the SUBSTANCE, who is Christ (Colossians 2:17).

  51. Jeff H,

    You do realize it is not my examples I am pulling from the OT. It is Paul’s examples that for brevity I have not given the addresses of. Partly to see who recognizes our NT with out its references. So you can talk shoes all you want, but your talking shoes with those who wrote the NT.

    So I don’t know the color of the horse you just put in front of the cart but you need to back up before you say now is the time to use good hermeneutics.

    Do you want me to address every reference I made from our NT? I will.
    _________________________________________________________

    Fourpointer,

    If Abraham had only the promise how is it Jesus told the Sadducees that God is a God of the living and not the dead? Sounds like he had more than a shadow to me.

    How can you even quote David when he speaks of the salvation of the Lord and not counting a man’s sins against him, if in fact it were only a shadow?

    The Law was a shadow of Christ, but the gospel preached at Mt. Sinai was our gospel.

    I see the shadow of what is yet to come, even now, and this is Christ bringing His salvation with Him. He died for us, yes, but He is choosing to bring it to us at His return.

    (Heb 9:28-10:1 NIV) so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming–not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

    This was written after Christ, what gives?
    ______________________________________________________

    Fourpointer,

    We then agree and rejoice in the revelation of scripture to our father Abraham when scripture teaches that Abraham had the gospel announced to him in Advance?

    (Gal 3:8 KJV) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.(Gal 3:9 KJV) So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

    We are rejoicing together that we are blessed with Abraham through faith? Can we agree together even further that Jesus speaking of our father Abraham said he saw Jesus day and was glad? Abraham knew our gospel, doesn’t this excite you, that our spiritual father to whom the promise was give was in the know?

    (John 8:56 KJV) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

    Do you think there are any implications to those of us who are imputed righteousness through faith that came from the blessings of Abraham if we act like those in the desert who fell?
    ______________________________________________
    Jonathan,

    If I have mentioned the word Calvinist this conversation I am not aware of it. I do not think that Arminianism or Calvinism has the corner on the truth. What I see is two camps who brag their doctrine comes from the complete word of God. Instead the truth is their doctrines are the compete word of God.

    Calvin is by grace not works (Paul), Armin is not by faith alone is a man justified but by works (James).

    Calvin is eternally secure at conversion, Armin is a man can loose his salvation. Both of these have a load of scripture on both sides.

    Calvin is only an elect few Christ died for, Armin is Christ died for all. Again there is a ton of scripture or doctrine on both sides.

    Should I go on? This is why I believe they both have the compete word or God, not the complete word of God.

    As far as you being a cult, I would rather you be like Nicodemus who didn’t fully realize what scripture said but in the end was not only responsible for it but embraced it. So I would like to hope for you.

    As far as most believers, I think they are Samericans. Most believers worship what they do not know. They could care less if they have a strong foundation in God’s word. They have faith in what they do not study or know.

    I agree with Nebuchadnezzar. I agree with all that you put forth. In fact concerning our hope of salvation I would ask you to add to your scriptures of our hope Peter is talking about. I Peter 1:9 (1 Pet 1:9 KJV) Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

    I am not saying we, nor our father Abraham, are trying to save some of the glory for ourselves. Did you agree with my challenge to everyone or is this what you are contending with? But scripture is clear we receive grace not in and of itself but through faith. The grace is there but who has the benefit of this grace out side of this faith?

    (Eph 2:8 KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    Paul using Abraham as our example said that he was credited righteousness before he was circumcised not after. That God didn’t impute him righteousness because he obeyed but because he believed.

    James does not take away from this, he in his letter is talking of man’s faith not God’s grace when he says faith without deeds is dead. We know that God gave the grace in His own will and effort, we can add nothing to it, it is all Him and His mercy and love towards us. But this is bestowed upon a man when he has faith. It is through faith and not of our selves. Can we say amen to this?

    James talking of this faith through which we participate in this grace says faith is not faith if it never goes past belief and into action. So James who also uses Abraham as our example does not contradict the grace of God but describes the true faith by which we can be saved. This is why James says of Abraham that he was not justified by what he believed but by his actions. His faith, his living faith, what God wants in the heart of man is how God chose to impute His grace.

    This is why all the warnings about people of faith not being carnal and not walking in the Spirit. Those things are not according to faith, that is not the conduct of someone who says I believe in Christ my savior.

    Do a word search on “through faith” and see what scripture teaches.

    So can we rejoice together it is by His grace and will that He has chosen to offer not only Abraham and his descendents righteousness but now we gentiles too are participants through Christ, through our faith.

    Or does this offend?

    I would like to get to some understanding on this before we get to pharaoh.
    __________________________________________

    Jonathan,

    Does my challenge below to everyone contradict what you say about Rom 8:8-9? I would say it confirms even firmer. This is part of Paul’s gospel that he taught from the Law of Moses and the prophets that we find in our New Testament gospel.

    (Gal 3:14 NIV) He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

    Can we say amen to that together?

    I say amen with you on His kindness leading us to repentance. Isn’t this all through the Law of Moses and the prophets?

    (John 6:44 NIV) “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

    To this I say amen with you. Is this any different than what we see God doing when He selected Abraham and made His covenant with him? Is this any different that the seal of righteousness, as Paul says, they received called circumcision? Can we agree together as brothers so far?

    Doesn’t it make sense that God chasteneth whom He loveth so we do not look to the Law for our righteousness or walk after the flesh as they did who had the covenant of imputed righteousness because of God’s oath to Abraham?

    Yes, yes, yes, “So see there is proof that there is a working in the child of God by his Spirit. They are his in every way even calling us son’s, those who were called to repentance through his Kindness called according to is purpose.”

    Yes to John 3:5. We receive the Holy Spirit because we share in Abrahams covenant through Christ. Can we still agree as brothers?

    Yes to James 1:12 and to James 1:18 and yes to James 2:24 There is no proof of faith it is not accompanied by action. Scripture teaches us Abraham was credited righteousness because his faith was action, even to sacrifice his own son. Can we still agree as brothers?

    I do not advocate we can loose our salvation. I am not an Arminianist. I advocate we were grafted into the blessings of Abraham and now are spiritual children of Abraham who have inherited the same promises. I believe we are credited our righteousness until we receive the crown of righteousness. (calling things that are not as if they were) I believe scripture teaches we have a hope of salvation in these promises of Abraham. I could elaborate more if you wish.

    But I do affirm we are redeemed, the price is paid, through Christ we are imputed with righteousness in the covenant God made with our father Abraham. I believe this is why we have the seal of the Holy Spirit being a deposit and why we should not grieve the Holy Spirit by chasing the Law or unrighteousness otherwise we shipwreck the faith by which we can be saved.

    Shout a big amen! Yes! “But it was by grace that God even came to Abraham in the first place. Because Abraham wasn’t looking for God. God found him; Jos 24:2 And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.”

    You asked me where do I stand. Looking at my challenge to everyone and these comments here, where do you think I stand?
    ____________________________________________

    To everyone,

    Can I give a simple, kindly challenge?

    The record in the last part of Acts is that Paul preached the gospel from the Law of Moses and the prophets. I have put a brief synopsis of Paul’s gospel from the Law of Moses and the prophets that we find in his letters, our New Testament.

    This is the basis, the foundation of my perspective if you will on the gospel I preach. I ask have I perverted this foundation with my own understanding. My challenge: can you show me were in scripture?

    I kept scripture out to keep it short and to see if there is any interest.

    From the Law of Moses this in a nutshell is Paul’s gospel from our New Testament:

    God imputed to Abraham righteousness because of his faith. His faith added nothing to this righteousness that God gave him, but through his faith he received what God alone can do for man.

    God made an everlasting covenant with Abraham and his descendents and gave the seal of circumcision. Paul testifies that this seal was a seal of righteousness that Abraham received not because he obeyed the order to circumcise but because he believed God before he was circumcised. This is how Abraham before the Law was credited righteousness by God outside of any effort of his own. Abraham was our example of how we are imputed righteousness not from the Law but by faith.

    Paul also taught this was imputed to him because he put his belief into action making it a living faith. Scripture tells us by putting his faith to action he left the land of his fathers and sojourned in a land not his own. He believed God when He said that, “you are the father of many nations.” He offered his son believing God to raise Him from the dead, for he did not doubt the promises. Paul says Abraham hoped against all hope.

    Paul still teaching from the Law of Moses instructs us that this covenant of imputed righteousness was not just for Abraham but his descendents. This is why it was an everlasting covenant. Paul adds to the sons of Abraham by telling gentiles we too are now included in this blessing of Abraham through Christ. The crowd that Paul preached to was not the first to be imputed righteousness but were part of a long line of those God has been giving His gospel of imputed righteousness to.

    This is why Hebrews tells us those at Mt. Sinai had the same gospel preached to them as we do today. But how did the chosen people of God’s election treat His gospel. Moses took it lightly and God was about to kill him on his way to Egypt until his wife circumcised their son. God was not going to let his prophet start off on the wrong foot by making light of the seal of righteousness God gave them.

    From then on His people have continued to make light of the righteousness God gave them. They sought their own through the Law, causing Paul to say they rejected the righteousness of God because they worked for it, instead of accepting it by faith.

    Others rejected the righteousness of God by ignoring what Moses commanded them and rejected all righteousness. But a few, like David, understood what God had done and today we use his voice in scripture to talk of our own salvation. Yet this is a man who we would say is Old Testament and couldn’t possibly have our gospel.

    Now today, we have nothing on Abraham and we have all gone our own way. Some of us who believe have gone into unrighteousness. Others have gone the way of the Law, but some of us truly do have faith.

    Is anything wrong with this understanding of our gospel?
    __________________________________________

    Fourpointer,

    You see, it is not I who does not answer, it is others who will not let me answer.

    I admit I felt bad yesterday for my harsh tone with you, so I say, I am sorry and will you forgive me for this? I should have responded and not reacted to you.

    If I could do it again, I would ask you to go to God in prayer about what I am saying and let the Holy Spirit teach you what is taught.

    May the Lord let it stick out to you every time you read his word.

    glasseyedave

  52. You do realize it is not my examples I am pulling from the OT. It is Paul’s examples that for brevity

    Yeah, I got that… The Book of Hebrews contains what is commonly referred to as the OT “Hall of Faith” list.

    So what?

    That doesn’t make your point valid at all. It simply means that God saves us through faith… and that even that faith comes from Him.

    Your argument’s “core” failing is:

    We will be given our salvation at Christ return, hence once actually saved always saved. If we fall away from the faith before then, even after having Holy Spirit and tasted of the heavenly gift and instead trample the Son of God underfoot, we will have shipwrecked our faith and die in our sins.

    Thus none of us would seem to have an assurance of salvation. Period.

    …that we can ‘walk away’ from God and ‘our’ salvation.

    …that a lifetime of ‘works’ (whatever that means) of ‘walking out our faith’ must be faithfully accomplished or we go to Hell.

    Wow! What a lame ‘god’ you must worship. I mean, he can’t even hold on to us… Not only that, but we must resurrect ourselves (because, remember, the Bible says we are spiritually dead), and then run a ‘works treadmill’ until we die, and finally, live with NO assurance that we will be saved in the end.

    You have cheapened Christ’s finished Work on the cross, and robbed Him of His glory by inserting yourself into the salvation process. What gall!

    Praise God, my salvation does not depend on me at all! It was Lord Jesus Christ who gave life-bearing faith to this dead man. ALL of the glory is HIS. Period.

    “And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” (1 John 5:11-13)

    “The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God’s wrath remains on him.” (John 3:36)

    “And even though you were dead in your transgressions and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, he nevertheless made you alive with him, having forgiven all your transgressions. (Colossians 2:13)

    “I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life.” (John 5:24)

    “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1)

    “Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,” (Romans 5:1)

    “He was given over because of our transgressions and was raised for the sake of our justification.” (Romans 4:25)

    “For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)

    “But to all who have received him—those who believe in his name—he has given the right to become God’s children” (John 1:12)

    “For all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery leading again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God’s children. And if children, then heirs (namely, heirs of God and also fellow heirs with Christ) — if indeed we suffer with him so we may also be glorified with him.” (Romans 8:14-17)

    “Now who is the person who has conquered the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? Jesus Christ is the one who came by water and blood—not by the water only, but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify, the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three are in agreement. If we accept the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, because this is the testimony of God that he has testified concerning his Son. (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has this eternal life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have this eternal life. (1 John 5:5-12)

    “And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among people by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)

    “More than that, I now regard all things as liabilities compared to the far greater value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things—indeed, I regard them as dung! — that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not because I have my own righteousness derived from the law, but because I have the righteousness that comes by way of Christ’s faithfulness—a righteousness from God that is in fact based on Christ’s faithfulness.” (Philippians 3:8-9)

    We need to draw our assurance from faith in the facts of Scripture and not from our ‘good works’ or our ‘walk’.

    I have not given the addresses of. Partly to see who recognizes our NT with out its references.

    You seem delighted by your own perceived craftiness. It almost sounds like you feel that you have landed amongst a group of Bible neophytes… “Tee-hee… I know the Bible and you don’t.” Not so, I can assure you.

    (Heb 9:28-10:1 NIV) so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming–not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

    This was written after Christ, what gives?

    Simple:

    1. My son is at a soccer game.

    2. I will pick him up at 4:00pm.

    Did he ever stop being my son? Nope.

    You’ve set up a straw man.

    In fact, Jesus will return to ‘pick us up,’ but in the mean time, we are already (still) His.

    IN Christ Jesus,
    - Jeff H

  53. Amen Jeff.

  54. Jeff H and Jonathan

    Your conclusion that none of us would have an assurance of salvation is not scriptural. Have you never read what was spoken in our gospel, that Abraham was credited righteousness because he did not waiver in the promises of God. He was fully persuaded that God had the power to do what He promised and this was why it was credited to him as righteousness. This is the guy who only had a promise and he had assurance.

    (Rom 4:20 NIV) Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God,(Rom 4:21 NIV) being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised.(Rom 4:22 NIV) This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.”

    So you say if we only had a promise we can not have assurance, why, because you waiver in unbelief or doubt God has the power to do as He promises? To what will God credit to you for righteousness when you say we have no assurance if we only have a hope? I would much rather be like Abraham and believe God is able to do as He has promised us in His word. What is so unscriptural about that?

    You said, “…that a lifetime of ‘works’ (whatever that means) of ‘walking out our faith’ must be faithfully accomplished or we go to Hell.”

    First of all it wasn’t me that said a righteous man who sins will die in his sins.

    (Ezek 18:24 NIV) “But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

    You said, “Wow! What a lame ‘god’ you must worship. I mean, he can’t even hold on to us”

    Yeah, what a lame God huh? At least the Israelites only called the Lord unjust, you call Him lame. I encourage you not to go down that road.

    (Ezek 18:25 NIV) “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

    Look, I agree with you what God has done for us is not based on us or comes even partially through our efforts. It is all Him and Him alone. It is He who promises us salvation before time began. It is He who imputes us righteousness and does not hold our sins against us as we deserve. But it is Him who said this grace comes to us through faith.

    Others teach that James is wrong when he says, that it is not by faith alone a man is justified but by works his faith is made complete. They reject that our belief put to action, (faith accompanied with works) is what credits us righteousness. They instead teach it is faith without works that credits us this righteousness and works are the results of a thankful life. Those who teach this are tampering with what is plainly written.

    So when you say I work my way into salvation you are wrong. I have no righteousness or works to commend me to God. But it is my faith accompanied by actions (works) that commends me to God and He credits me righteousness.

    So like you, my salvation doesn’t depend on me, but my faith lived out depends on me.

    I have not interjected myself into the salvation process, but God interjects us all in the process of living faith by which we are credited righteousness. It is His grace through faith and James tells us what real faith is. What could be so hard to understand about that?

    For every verse you quote me about being saved, having salvation, having eternal life, I can quote verses that talk about them as coming to us when Christ comes. You say you have, I say God calls things that are not as if they were. But to this you say, not to me but God, not in my gospel you don’t. Even though Paul taught this about the gospel he preached.

    Since our God is a God who calls things that are not as if they were, what in your gospel does God do this for you?

    Bottom line, I draw my assurance of my hope of salvation from the one who made the promise. And like my father Abraham God will credit me righteousness because I stand unwavering in His promise. Wouldn’t you rather be like Abraham too? Jesus Himself said if Abraham were your father you would do what Abraham did. Well do you?

    I am not trying to tee hee you. I want to win you over.

  55. 1. My son is at a soccer game.

    2. I will pick him up at 4:00pm.

    Did he ever stop being my son? Nope.

    You’ve set up a straw man.

    In fact, Jesus will return to ‘pick us up,’ but in the mean time, we are already (still) His.

    Which is exactly what we see all throughout the New Testament. The overwhelming evidence from Scripture (which is indeed the final authority) is that–

    We have been redeemed (Galatians 3:13; 1st Peter 1:18).
    We have been saved (Romans 8:24; Romans 10:9-10; Ephesians 2:8; 2nd Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5).
    We are saved (1st Corinthians 1:18; 2nd Corinthians 2:15; Ephesians 2:5).
    We are in Christ (Romans 8:1; 1st Corinthians 1:2, 1:30; 2nd Corinthians 1:21; 2nd Corinthians 5:17; 2nd Corinthians 12:2; Galatians 1:22; Ephesians 1:1; Philippians 1:1; Philippians 4:21; Colossians 1:2; 1st Thessalonians 2:14; 2nd Timothy 3:12; 1st Peter 5:14).

    If all of these Scriptures (and many more) all say that we have been redeemed, we have been/are saved, we are in Christ, then why do you continue to say that we have not been redeemed/saved? That line of thinking clearly and completely contradicts what is taught in the Scriptures.

    Do we have the promise that we will be saved? Of course we do! But, just like in Jeff’s illustration, we have the promise that we will be saved because we are already saved. That is why it’s called a “promise” and a “guarantee” (or “earnest”) and why it’s called “faith.” Just like we will have $1000 in our bank account at the end of the day because we already have $1000 in our bank account right now.

    You can continue to twist the Scriptures all you want, but the bottom line is this: we who are in Christ are saved–not saved to a promise, but saved with salvation.

  56. Fourpointer

    You said, “You can continue to twist the Scriptures all you want, but the bottom line is this: we who are in Christ are saved–not saved to a promise, but saved with salvation.”

    But there is one who twist scripture better than I. He said we, through the resurrection of Christ have been born again into a hope.

    (1 Pet 1:3 NIV) Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    Speaking of this hope, he said what I hope in is kept for me in heaven until the coming of salvation to is ready, but not, to be revealed in the last days.

    (1 Pet 1:4 NIV) and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade–kept in heaven for you,(1 Pet 1:5 NIV) who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

    Not to mention the faith I say I have in the one who makes the promise that everyone seems to reject as biblical, that God will shield me by His power so I can see that day with confidence.

    But somehow all of this is not biblical to you.
    Somehow the definition of faith in scripture is unbiblical to you.
    Being like Abraham is unbiblical to you.
    God calling things that are not in our gospel somehow is not biblical to you.

    For all of this some say I worship a pretty lame God.

    Hebrews says the ancient ones were commended for their faith in that they believed and acted on belief but never received what was promised.

    You say we have it all now. So what are you commended for?

    (Heb 11:39 NIV) These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised.

    This is what faith is. Hoping for a promise not seen. Why reject it? Why reject God’s word when He calls things that are not as if they were?

    I am not teaching out of some other faith’s holy text. I am teaching out of the bible. You just don’t recognize the gospel Paul preached in the last book of Acts.

    (Acts 28:23 NIV) They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. From morning till evening he explained and declared to them the kingdom of God and tried to convince them about Jesus from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets.

    Although he has written about it and I keep trying to share it with you, you reject it. Is there anything that I have said that did not come out of the Law of Moses and the prophets? Anything?

  57. You seem to have ignored almost every refutation we have rendered, but surely you must realize by now your balloon of heresy has been thoroughly deflated.

    “Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. For the one of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life. For it is witnessed of him, “You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek.” For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. (Hebrews 7:11-19)

    We have a better covenant, a better law, a better Priest.

    As we have demonstrated through Scripture earlier, we are adopted sons and daughters into God’s family. If we sin, or stumble, we do not need to anguish over a fear of being ‘shown the door,’ of being disinherited. Nor will our heavenly Father take His Holy Spirit from us, as King David pleaded.

    Know this:

    My son will ALWAYS be my son.

    Nothing can change that.

    I will ALWAYS be God’s son.

    Nothing can change that.
    ———————————————————————————

    From morning till evening he explained and declared to them the kingdom of God and tried to convince them about Jesus from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets.

    This one is easy… All Paul was doing here was explaining to a group of Jews, who would obviously know the Torah (and indeed the entire Tanakh), that the promised Messiah was fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

    1. The Law was established to show us our sin.

    2. Our sin merits death. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.

    3. The Passover first, then the levitical offerings were prescribed and instituted to COVER sins.

    4. God would send a Perfect Passover Lamb, the Messiah, Who would then be King (Meshiach Nagid). He would come from the Jews, but not Levi… from the Tribe of Judah!

    5. The Gospel message would then go to the Jews first, then to the Gentiles (think Kingdom Parables).

    6. He would adopt (as sons and daughters) a people for His Names sake:

    “and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.” (2 Corinthians 6:18)

    7. How long? Until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in:

    “Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.” (Romans 11:25)

    Now, as sons and daughters, we shall remain so.

  58. I really can’t add anything to what FP and Jeff H. have already said to our aspiring cult founder “glasseyedave”.

    Here’s the bottom line, GED is in the gall of bitterness being bound up in 100% works righteousness. Of course this is no surprise since this is the natural condition of all humanity in Adam until they are set free by the grace of God, being given hearts of flesh instead of hearts of stone, and having the eyes of their understanding opened by the Holy Spirit based solely upon the merits of the Person and work of the Second Adam – the Lord Jesus Christ.

    GED’s fundamental error is making his “salvation” so-called dependent upon his own personal performance (i.e. “faithfulness”). I’ve watched him talk in circles long enough to see him give with one hand what he takes away with the other, speaking from both sides of his mouth as it were. On the one hand he claims his false teaching is nothing more or less than the plain teaching of scripture, even as he twists, denies, or flatly ignores massive amounts of the Holy Bible that demonstrate his gross error.

    On the other hand he claims that his “promised salvation” from God will be granted when Christ returns, based on Christ’s merits; yet in his warped view what is this “reward” of salvation really predicated upon? Why, nothing less than GED’s own personal perseverence in faithfulness!

    This is pure, unvarnished works righteousness.

    GED, you are a liar and a deceiver and you are the mouthpiece of Satan. As such you’ve long since worn out your welcome. You can preach your doctrines of demons at your own blog, you are not welcome to do so here.

    I strongly recommend that you repent of your self-righteousness and flee to the cross of Christ Jesus for remission of sins. Your alleged faith is not the faith described in Ephesians 2:8-9. True faith is the gift of God, lest any man should boast, and the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. You must be born-again.

    In Christ,
    CD

  59. If Dave will not be convinced by Scripture, then I see no point in allowing him to spread his false beliefs.

    This discussion is officially over.

  60. I would say that the context is not down to verse 12 of Hebrews 6 but it would be down to verse 20. When we allow the context to go down to verse 20 of Hebrews 6 I believe this weakens the position cited above and strengthens the Arminian position that salvation is conditional and that condition is continued faith in Jesus from beginning to end (1 Peter 1:5). We are justified by faith (Romans 5:1 and noticed not unto faith) and we are kept by faith (2 Corinthians 1:24). Jesus said that whoever keeps His word (continued active sense in the Greek) will never see death (John 8:51). He makes salvation conditioned upon keeping His word by faith. Even Paul the Apostle encouraged believers to continue in the faith (Acts 11:23; 14:22).

  61. I don’t think you will find anyone here who doesn’t agree that salvation is by faith–but not just any faith, knowing there is a faith that does not save (see James 2:14). Yes, the faith that saves will persevere until the end. And that faith that saves is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9).

    But, if we continue reading Hebrews 6 on through to verse 20, we do not find any evidence that The Writer is warning us about “losing our salvation.” In fact, in verse 9 he says he is going to go on talking about things that accompany salvation–that is, those things that grow from our salvation–not the things that lead to our salvation. Things that make our faith perfect (James 2:22) like our work, our labor of love, our ministering to the saints (verse 10). Then, in verse 11, The Writer says he desires that we show due diligence–why? So that we don’t become lost again? No, so that we do not become sluggish, and forget to do those things that a Christian is called to do (verse 12) and that we may imitate those who have come before us.

    Then, verses 13-18 give us Abraham as an example of the faith that endures and will receive the promise of salvation in the one to whom we have fled for salvation. But then look at verse 19. “This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast…” An anchor that we can pull up is not very sure and steadfast. In fact, Jude says that our God and Savior “is able to keep us from falling” (Jude 24-25), and Paul says that what God has begun He will complete (Philippians 1:6).

    I hope you’re not under the impression that we are a bunch of hyper-Calvinists (which is a heresy). We too believe that the faith that saves is the faith that endures.

  62. FP,

    I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that the difference between your definition of perseverance (i.e. continuing in the faith) and The Seeking Disciple’s is the difference between day and night. One is based solely on Christ’s faithfulness to preserve all His redeemed elect throughout their eartly lives, into death, until He raises them on the last day, and throughout eternity thereafter while the other is based on the professing believer’s faithfulness to preserve himself unto the end – in earnest cooperation with God’s prevenient grace of course. One gives all the glory to God, and one gives 99.99999% of the glory to God.

    I’ll leave the reader to decide which is which.

    In Christ,
    CD

  63. CD,

    ___ hit ___ nail __ ___ head

    Fill in the blanks
    :)

  64. That’s a big 10-4, good buddy.

  65. I have a hard time knowing if I’m saved is like a big ? Mark . Because I used to go to church, and was bapticed. But after I forgot the things I knew and went into the world and did a lot of wrong, very wrong things. One day someone came to me as I was telling him my sins and that I wass going to burn in hell. And he said that God would take me back. And I fell flat on my face and repented like never before. I cried like a baby for a long time and this time it was hart felt. But sometimes I read things and ? My salvation. Someone please help me find

  66. hopefully some one can answer me .. ok, well what i see here , is that people are saying, I have never been saved at all, and that is hard for me to believe.. why? yes ive been baptised in both water and spirit .. i was close to God, i would pray for a long time and even just the thought of God would raise my hairs and give me goosebumps through feeling his love and power.. he has showed up in my room to where i was scared cause he was so strong. he has answered MANY direct prayers of mine, heres an example.. i was shaky at work and needed food for the first break, however all i had was a dollar for lunch.. i prayed for God to have some one offer me food.. i stood in the break room and waited, nothing happened.. so i decided to put my only dollar in the vending machine.. my dollar spit back out.. the vending maching SHUT OFF .. and some one behind me offered me food lol.. God was in my life, and he then gave me a job to where i could DO EVERYTHING i needed to to draw closer.. i didnt work mon, tues. wed. thurs.. and i did someting each of those days with God as in small groups , and movements and so on. he was in my life. i was filled with his spirit,, i fell away for two years.. every day i would think of him.. i would always ask for forgiveness, i asked him to remind me of him.. i would see the word potatoes and it looked like jesus i would look back and it said potatoes lol.. i had a dream where he confirmed the dream in a powerful manner right when i woke up when i asked.. he said i used to be in the fire, and people would watch me burn.. i kept sinning.. i kept asking for forgivness and finally after 2 years i fully got back on my feet, and right now i am there and back seeking him through faith and repentance SO. with that being said.. where do i fall into this?? was i saved,, then backslid and not saved.. and now as i continue in the faith can regain salvation.. or do you truly believe i was never saved at all? because if you are saved you will never backslide??

  67. As often as we confess our sins He is faithful to forgive us of our sins.

    Being born from above means we are made alive by the Holy Spirit.

    Alive first to Who He is. Alive second to who we are.

    You, me and everyone who ever lived, lives or ever shall live except for Christ Jesus deserve nothing but eternal damnation for our wickedness.

    This new life results in a change in us from living for self to living for Him.

    Look at your comment above, with me for a moment. What word shows up consistantly throughout it. Can you see it? The word “i” …

    The question never was have you made a decision for Jesus. The question remains, Has He made a decision for you?

    No man can answer this question for you though some might try. The truth is only He can give you that blessed assurance.

    But like a fruit tree, you will, when born from above, bear good fruit. The old things pass away and all things become new. Do you know the fruit of the Holy Spirit? These He will manifest through you.

    Your place now is not to cry out to men here for their assurance or judgement, but to cry out to God for His peace which when truly received will pass all understanding. This you must do today, and pray through till you have received His confirmation. Do this now while reading His Word. Begin with the gospel of John chapter 1 verse 1 crying out to Him to reveal His Truth to you through His Word. Don’t settle for anything less than His will.

    Once you have prayed through and read through from scripture only then come back and tell us your good news.

    Also, my email address is he.must_increase@roadrunner.com copy and paste it in your email so as to get it right. Also any of the contributors listed above on the right would help you as well once you have received from the Lord via His Word as revealed by the Holy Spirit.

    I and others will be praying for you…

  68. Oh, and as for the “i” thing? It’s not about us, it’s always about Him… Everything is of Him from Him for Him through Him and to Him. God’s will? That in everything Jesus would have the preeminence. Now cry out to Him as you read John”s gospel:
    http://esv.scripturetext.com/john/1.htm

  69. If anyone, and I mean anyone, says that you can lose your salvation; You didn’t have it in the first place. Why would Jesus pay such a great price just to give it away?????? He came to this earth not to condemn this earth; He came to this earth that by HIM all men may have the opportunity for salvation. I believe that’s John 3:17. Enough said……Amen.

  70. I am STILL so blown away by this post. That the plain translated word is not good enough for doctrine when it doesn’t agree with you.

    “Now, at face value, it does sound like the writer of Hebrews (hereafter referred to as “The Writer”) is saying that a person can be saved and then fall away to the point that they cannot be saved again. But is that really what Writer is saying? No, it isn’t, and we will see why.”

    I don’t see you doing this with Romans 5:8, trying to find the opposite meaning of what is plainly written.

    When is it appropriate to use the word… hypocrite?

    What you are doing is nullifying the written Word of God for your doctrine, because you do not understand the gospel.

    What makes your explanation to not trust what is clearly written and taught in scripture any different than the 7th Day Adventist, Jehovah Witness, Mormons and any other false religion. You all always teach the same thing. Not to trust the written word as found in scripture, but to look for the deeper meaning where the real truth lies. If people just listen to you and not trust what they read, then can they know the truth and be set free.

    Not trying to kick the hornets nest, but this is wrong and I can not believe how many fall for it. Not only here but in other false Christian faiths.

    Can you explain how you are different than the others who teach using the same tactics?

    glasseyedave
    thegospelaccordingtothegospel.com

  71. “Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling” — are we supposed to believe that is just a nice theoretical fact, but that He really WON’T keep us from falling? What exactly is the point of saying He is able if He isn’t going to do it?

    Any interpretation of Hebrews 6 (and I’m not entirely persuaded on the one given here) has to be consistent with the rest of Scripture, which includes the end of Jude, and the very clear teaching, noted above, that those who are of us would no doubt continue with us. Hebrews 6 cannot be teaching the loss of salvation.

  72. Jon Gleason,

    Do you see anything wrong with your comment? You quote Jude correctly saying that Jesus is “able”, but then you turn around and emphasize “WON’T”.

    Able and won’t are two completely different things.

    This is a fine example of what I meant. The plain language is translated by the reader (you) to mean something other than what the translator wrote when the KJB was written.

    To me, this is worse than making doctrine out of a paraphrase bible. But the paraphrasing did occur in your statement.

    I know there is a lot of doctrine hanging on the paraphrase “won’t” instead of what it reads “is able”.

    There is a difference in teaching the sufficiency of Christ to be able to see someone unto salvation because Christ can. And the teaching that Christ will not let someone fall away. These are two different subjects.

    You have made the subject of the sufficiency of Christ as written in Jude and turned it on its head, making it a subject of eternal security, which the verse is not speaking of on it’s own until we get the paraphrased translation.

    Will anyone please tell me, how is this deeper meaning beyond the printed text (which to me appears to be a paraphrase not intended in the translation) is any different than what the Mormons, JW and 7th Day Adventist do to justify their doctrine?

    I believe this is an honest question and would like someone to be honest back by not giving me more doctrine to buttress the paraphrasing of Jude, but simply let me know how what you are doing is different than the “cults” who paraphrase verses to find deeper meaning for doctrine?

    Wouldn’t be better to say of our doctrine… It is written, not it is paraphrased? Just asking. Can anyone agree that we can stand on a gospel that is written and not change the meaning of words?

    glasseyedave
    thegospelaccordingtothegospel.com

  73. Dave, I’m not saying the text says “won’t.” It doesn’t. I wouldn’t have quoted it if I wanted to claim it says that.

    I am saying that the text implies that He will keep us from falling. Why? Because Scripture is profitable, and there is no profit in telling us He is able to do something that He isn’t going to do.

    I can just imagine my child walking along a wall, and feeling unsteady. I say, “I’m able to keep you from falling,” so she holds out her hand to me. I take it and we go along a little further, and she loses her balance, and I let her fall.

    “But dear, I didn’t say I was going to keep you from falling, I only said I was able to.” Wouldn’t that make me a great father? “Able” most assuredly implies He will, just as there are other verses that teach He will.

    Use your brain. God has given us one. He told us to love Him with our mind. We can look at what the verse clearly implies as well as what it explicitly says. I’m not twisting it to say something contrary, it’s the logical conclusion and clear implication of what it clearly says. That’s not anywhere near what the cults do.

  74. I just some time on ged’s web site. Ya’ll are wasting your breath trying to get him to understand Hebrews 6 or anything else. He lines up more with Rob Bell than with any Christian.

  75. As a new believer, I came in search of answers and meaning. I didnt understand Hebrews 6:4-6. After reading all the posts, I’m really confused. This seems like its as much a heated debate as any non saved group would have. Now, my life is changed and I just read I’m going to hell since I don’t understand KJV.Would someone please pray that I’ll understand and that other new Christians who read this will to

  76. I’m so grateful for this post. For a while i thought i was ‘lost’ forever. It feels good to know that i ‘ve got a chance again. Thanks for this exposition!

  77. I too am very grateful for this post. It was concise, accurate, easy to follow and understand, and as always, shows the deep yet simplistic nature of the Word.
    Thank You…

  78. Thank you so much for explaining this! It really helped, I do however have another question and it’s concerning the last verse you used in your explanation which is if I’m truly saved shouldn’t I hear the voice of the Lord Jesus? I feel like I don’t hear Him. Does that mean I’m deceiving myself about my salvation? Hope and pray that you can shed light on this question as it does bother me! Thanks again and God bless!

  79. Mary Elliott – The way Christians hear the voice of Jesus is to read and comprehend and obey the Word of God. People who desire to audibly hear from God are often led into many trials and may be misled. We examine ourselves to see if we be in the faith – do we love the things of God more and hate our sin more? If not, then we are deceived. Let not sin cause you to think you are not saved, let any lack of struggle against sin to do so.

  80. Mary Elliott, further to Manfred’s good response, the point of Jesus saying His sheep hear His voice was not about the ears, but about the response. In John 10:26, Jesus tells those who aren’t His sheep that the problem is they don’t believe Him. When He says in the next verse, “My sheep hear My voice,” He is saying that they listen and receive what He says, not that they have good hearing. The people to whom He was speaking had ears that worked just fine, but they weren’t hearing, weren’t listening to believe and receive.

    Here’s a guarantee. If you want to know what He says, and want to believe it and obey it, He will make sure you hear everything you need to from His Word. God is good. He isn’t going to zap you when you die and say, “Ha, Ha, you didn’t hear well enough, off to Hell you go!” If you are truly seeking Him, it is because He has drawn you, and those who seek Him find Him.

  81. Glory to God !!!! :)

  82. I agree with everything except the part about unbelievers doing miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit. I believe they did those miracles by the power of Satan unwittingly; and deceived themselves into believing they were doing it in the name (or authority of) God. In other words, trying to serve God in the flesh – their own way apart from God’s prescribed way which is through Jesus Himself.

    I just can’t see the Holy Spirit making Himself available for use to perform a miracle and yet the person who is using the power of the Holy Spirit, rejects the Holy Spirit Himself. After all, He is Holy -separate from sin.

  83. glory to God..thanx for the share..may God increase His anointing power upon you all..

  84. Thank you & may God Bless your ministry!

  85. I have known two people, a younger brother and an ex-wife(the mother of my daughters) who both ‘fell away’ from their faith in Jesus Christ. Their sincere belief was not in doubt for years while they confessed Jesus as Lord, walked in the Holy Spirit, in bible study, fellowship, and prayer. But somehow some circuit was shorted, or some switch turned off (or on), through various hardships, confusion, seduction or whatever other type of deception. One is now a professed athiest, the other says she believes in God but not Jesus, remarried someone of like-thinking, and this is what she has been teaching my daughters. So as far as I’m concerned all the theology and doctrrine about Calvinism or Armenianism doesnt change the facts of personal experince. Fact is you cant know if someone is saved until you see them in heaven. Or, you can know they are saved, and they CAN fall away. these two are as thoroughly and confidently unbelieving now as they were believing then.

  86. @chris “Fact is you cant know if someone is saved until you see them in heaven.”

    The other disciples thought Judas was one of them.

    “So as far as I’m concerned all the theology and doctrrine about Calvinism or Armenianism doesnt change the facts of personal experince.”

    You are right. Nothing changes the >facts< of personal experience. But personal experience is limited in scope and easily misinterpreted, so we don't always get the facts right. And someone else's personal experience always relies on the accuracy of their perceptions of that experience and their ability (and willingness) to accurately report it. And we never, ever, ever know all the factors that go into a personal experience.

    So personal experience as a guide is extremely unreliable. Its facts may be completely accurate, but learning all the facts, processing them properly, and applying them to our lives and the lives of others is impossible.

  87. WOW, Thanks for the comments. This has been a question that I have had for some time and I appreciate the comments. To me, there is a strong parallel here with John’s comments to the Laodecian Church regarding “lukewarm” Christians. Can I, or anyone, be a christian and be lukewarm at the same time? Clearly the answer is that I am one or the other, I can’t be both.

    My salvation is secured by the blood of Christ, not something that I have done.

    Be steadfast brothers and sisters. Paraphrasing an old Spurgeon quote – discernment is not knowing the difference between right and wrong its determining the difference between what is right and almost right.

  88. SDA is a false religion? Whhhaat? lol. Okay, I’m late to the party, and what a party it was. I love to hear how people think. The deeper issue I think is whether a person can ‘unchose’ what they have chosen. I have no idea why this is even a question. Of course they can!. ” To Him who is able to keep you from falling”. Yes, God is able. Will you let Him? Choice is an expression of God’s love. The plan of salvation just makes the right choice a no-brainer. I love the story of the prodigal son. The father let him do what he wanted. But it wasn’t until the son ‘came to himself’ ..and made that humiliating,long walk home that he found the Father never left..the son did. But the son had faith that 1.) The father would accept him. 2.) The father hadn’t moved. But this was by faith: he didn’t know at the start of his journey whether the father would be there at the end. Was the son ‘saved’ the whole time he was out there doing whatever? That is the biggest threat about the ‘once saved always saved’ philosophy. That you can be saved AS you are sinning. Christ covers all sin, but there is a process to that. ” ” If we confess, He is faithful and just to forgive”. But if we don’t confess… We make this more complicated then what it is. Nothing can pluck you out of God’s hand. But you, like the prodigal son, can definitely chose to walk out. Thoughts?

  89. Travis: “Was the son ‘saved’ the whole time he was out there doing whatever?” Yes. You may have noticed that at no point in time did he stop being the son of the father. There were consequences to his actions and he lost out on some benefits, but his being part of the family never changed.

    “That is the biggest threat about the ‘once saved always saved’ philosophy. That you can be saved AS you are sinning.” The fact that something may be abused does not change whether or not it is true.

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