The debate over music, what’s acceptable and what isn’t in God’s eyes, will continue until Christ returns. I found this very interesting piece at latter days and decided to post it here. I’ve also included another link from the same blog concerning music at the end of this post. I do hope you will consider what is written, it may open your eyes to what is wrong with certain types of music. For me, I knew there was something wrong with CCM, for instance, but I couldn’t quite put my finger on what it was {other than the obvious}.
Don’t Forget the Music!
Not so long ago, I did an article on the effects of beats on the brain. It reviewed the nature of syncopated beats as a means to examine the type of music God inspires versus the type of music Satan inspires.
A few fought tooth & nail on the entire idea of such a thing. That music – apart from the lyrics – can be against God all by itself.
In spite of the numerous scientific reports which show that music (not lyrics) can impact mood, behavior, thought patterns, and physiological development, many still refused to believe that the beats in music can determine the nature of a song. They insisted that music being good or bad can only be defined by the lyrics, and not by the music itself. Entire genres of music could not be considered unGodly just because of the beats. Well, apparently one company knows such claims to be false.
I-Doser is marketing what is being referred to as “digital drugs” which can be purchased for a few dollars over the internet. Being marketed as something that will “powerfully alter your mood” or give you the “highest quality exotic bud, mood enhancement pills, and legal hashish”, this company is selling beats that give the effect of making you feel high…hence the name digital drugs.
read on here…
I also recommend ‘Christ’s music or Satan’s music’ from this same blog
Excellent, sane post – rather than a mere rant
I agree that music is designed by God to impact the soul of humans. David demonstrated this.
What is difficult to categorize, as far as I’ve seen, is how to identify evil music objectively.
That being said, perhaps it’s like the old definition of “obscenity” – I can’t define it but I know it when I see it.
Finally! How many times have those who stand for purity in music come up against the same brick wall of delusion in others? It’s like a fog that covers them and won’t allow them to understand. Music is not neutral, it is either dedicated to the glory of God or it isn’t. Anything else just doesn’t matter.
Lyn,
Thank you for this. Far too many think the exact opposite about music. They claim that God has saved them and made them a new creation AND that ALL things have passed away. Yet, the styles and genres of music they like “after” salvation never changes! Go figure!
Here is a link to the series I did on “The Desert Pastor” about Music – The Golden Calf.
http://thedesertpastor.wordpress.com/category/worship/music-the-golden-calf/
And it seems to always get down to what we want, not what God wants. From Eve in the Garden, the Tower of Babel all the way through Israel’s tumultuous history of rebellion and disobedience to present, man, whether he wear the title “Christian” or non has always and will always strive for the feeling and not God’s glory.
Actually music and the arts fall into the realm of Common Grace. We can take them or leave them. We’re required to exercise discretion. If a certain form of music is affecting you adversely, drumming up old sinful days, glorying in sin, blaspheming…whatever, well, then turn it off.
But in and of itself it is neither Holy nor Unholy. It too will all burn up at the consummation. We live as Christians….we can eat the meat offered to idols, with wisdom and understanding. This is the realm of Common Grace. Culture falls here…..man trying to make sense of the universe. Even fallen man will get some things right, create some beautiful things….we can partake and interact….we can’t hide…..we just need to understand who we are and the principles at work.
I can listen to a song on the radio because it might teach me something about lost people…..sometimes lost people have some interesting insights….or maybe it just has a nice beat. We need to be wise. The problem with these types of arguments is they seem to make western music the standard by which these issues are judged. I reject National Conversions and Constantinianism but take the Armenians for example. They were ‘converted’ in the 4th century and have a LONG tradition of church music based off entirely different scales than anything we use in the European tradition. I don’t think there should be musical instruments in church, but as far as music…..there’s nothing wrong with Armenian music, Kurdish music, Tajik music, or Bengali. Not in and of itself. Christian in India sing hymns accompanied by Sitar. Their whole concept of music is entirely different than ours. They’re Raga, classical music is exotic to our ears. It’s all melody and complicated beats. They don’t have a concept of harmony. Is it sinful? No, it’s just different. The medieval arguments about beauty and what makes good art and good music are totally subjective, rooted in Constantinian Sacralism and without Biblical warrant.
These ‘beat’ studies are totally subjective.
However, I do appreciate other Christians wanting to be obedient to God.
As far as CCM, most of it is just plain garbage with bad theology and the music is just not very good. If I want to listen rock/pop music there are other things I can listen to that are better.
Once you attach the name of Christ to it….ah, now there’s a different criteria. I really do have to listen to it quite carefully and make a judgment.
If I’m listening to just for an example….Gordon Lightfoot or Rush….they’re not Christians…I’m not holding the music up to a standard of holiness. I’m just listening, pondering, rejecting some, accepting some, enjoying or sometimes shutting off.
Wisdom…that’s what we need…..not checklists….not binding where Scripture doesn’t bind.
This kind of logic leads to rejecting reading a book by a non-Christian….Paul didn’t accept that. We don’t need to be afraid. We need to be bold and wise.
God Bless,
Protoprotestant
http://proto-protestantism.blogspot.com/
DP, you are welcome. Music is powerful, and deceiving. Too many ignorantly defend it without understanding how offended God is by most of what passes as ‘worship’ music.
Thanks for the link, I look forward to checking it out
———————————————————————————-
Protoprotestant
You claim this concerning music, ‘But in and of itself it is neither Holy nor Unholy’–I disagree; a closer look at the post as well as the link at the bottom gives insight into the sin of the beat. I can remember listening to different types of music as a young woman, and being influenced sexually by certain songs.
I can also remember driving faster if the song on the radio had a fast paced upbeat tempo.
The mind is influenced by what we put in it. Romans 12:2 says, ‘And do not be conformed {fashion oneself according to} to this world, but be transformed {to change into another form} by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.’ We see from that verse the mind is renewed {renovation, complete change for the better} by the reading/studying of God’s word. What we allow to go in our ears does indeed affect our behavior. Combine our sinful mind with our sin nature, and you cannot possibly discern properly apart from the power and wisdom of God.
The beat is what catches our attention, it’s what causes us to react. We must guard carefully what we put in, as the saying goes, garbage in, garbage out.
Why would any true blood bought born from above Christian listen to any form of secular music!! Let us NEVER forget, it’s NOT about us, our comfort, our happiness, our enjoyment. We must remember this passage from 1 Cor.,’Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.’ Is God glorified when we listen to pop, reggae, country, rock, classical, etc…no. Our God is a jealous God, He will NOT share His glory with another. I do hope you’ll consider reading this, http://defendingcontending.com/2010/05/21/a-jealous-god/
Discernment is a gift of God, this gift grows and deepens as we grow in the Lord. It isn’t considered a checklist, or legalism, or old fashioned/outdated to take EVERY area of our daily lives and put it under a microscope; examining our thoughts, words and actions in light of His holiness, His glory.
I recommend brother Michael’s commentary to this post to you as well.
Blessings to you
Lyn
As like most youth I grew up with music. Started with disco and pop, and quickly moved into rock and then heavy metal. Here, I can tell you unequivocally it was the music that moved me (and others as well), not the lyrics. Often times one could not even discern what the lyrics were as they were so garbled under the blazing guitars and pounding drums.
And even when the lyrics were understood, they were often so cryptic and nonsensical that one never really knew what they were singing about. Take for example Hotel California by the Eagles (which I obviously don’t advise anymore). The song I loved, the lyrics I knew by heart (and sadly they are still etched in my mind), and overall I found it a very powerful song. But was it the lyrics or the music? The music as I did not have an idea what they were even singing about. I mean, what in the world do they mean about stabbing the beast, and you can check out but you can never leave? Well – now I know they were singing about the church of satan. Wonderful.
The same thing can be said of all the music I listened to and the same is true for all genres of music and for all peoples across the globe. That is, it’s the music and not the lyrics. And likewise, the same thing is true with CCM (Contemporary “Christian” music), CR (“Christian” rock), CHM (“Christian” heavy metal), CHH (“Christian hip hop), etc. That is, the music is the reason why the albums sell, the music is the reason why the concerts are packed, the music is the reason why people get up and move to the beat. The lyrics at best are secondary as one could interchange any host of words to the same beats and rhythms and the albums would still sell like hot cakes.
So please, if you listen to this music, at least be honest with yourself and don’t hide behind the lyric defense as it is paper thin. And, if one is so moved by spiritual compositions, why don’t you go to the source and try singing the Psalms? Funny thing in that it is a command in the Scriptures that most dance around as the Psalms are just not “contemporary” enough for modern ears. And I will confess that those weaned on the breasts of rock, pop, CCM, CR, CHM, etc., singing the Psalms will initially taste like castor oil, but in time, as your senses are exercised, you will find them to be like medicine to the soul.
My family and I presently belong to a church that was built on music. Our “pastor”, who was once a music/youth “pastor”, split with our old church over what style/type music he could play. The musicians are very talented, but what and how they play doesn’t honor God. Members of the “worship team” have even been playing at local bars (always outside on the party deck!); and they’ve been playing mainly secular music (along with some “original works”). Sadly, this isn’t the only “church” where this is happening in our county (we’re in the so-called “Bible Belt”). I’m constantly reminded that Lucifier was the leader of the heavenly choir. He’s still using his twisted methods to seduce people today!
Please pray that my husband will have eyes to see what’s going on, and that we will be able to worship at a place where God is glorified, and the name of Jesus is exalted!
Yet again, we find ourselves defending what we want, what we like and what we deem acceptable or not. Humanism has crept in and infiltrated to such a degree that seemingly genuine comments about a variety of subject matter turn out all about me, me, me. Why cannot we stick to what is acceptable to God and change ourselves to fit that? Where is the blockage? Every subject (especially music) seems to degrade into a fight pitting those who think there is neutral ground in the universe and those who have a clear understanding about the black and white clarity of God’s morality. It all boils down to man and his arrogance, pride and ego. We are the generation of ME and it will only end us up in Hell if we don’t change and submit.
R&R-
Excellent point, flesh will always defend it’s pet desires. The command to deny self is so important, and so overlooked. After all, I can justify just about anything for the sake of ‘self’. We MUST understand, this bears repeating over and over and over…IT IS NOT ABOUT US!!!
Thank you for your truthful insight.
Lyn
Lyn,
Thanks for your comments. I fully understand where you are coming from. I was converted overseas and when I returned to the United States I remember throwing out all my secular books including histories. I was only going to read the Bible and Theology….nothing else. I donated some really good books to my library!
The Christian life is often a series of pendulum swings.
A lot of these swings are based on feelings and other subjective standards. I believe, as I’m sure you do the Bible is sufficient for all things pertaining to the life of Christian and for the life of the Church. That’s our source.
I posted an article on my blog called Common Grace Culture. It was something I wrote early this morning before I read your response.
If you’re interested in understanding a little bit more where I’m coming from, (I’m not alone on this point at least) please have a look at this one article.
Please don’t apply the first paragraph to this website. I think the blogosphere is generally better at discussion as opposed to mainline forms of Christian media. And this blog obviously has some good folks who are genuine.
If my writings come across as a rant….I apologize. I’m passionate as many of us indeed are. I’m not meaning to attack anyone personally…unless I name them specifically, which I sometimes do. I’m never sure what tone people will take when they read something. I’m not writing to be purposefully irenic in tone…I’m trying to get to the point, that’s all.
I may offend you by what I say, but I ask that you don’t take it in the sense that I’m trying to attack you or just be plain offensive.
My goal is to provoke and generate discussion and thought…nothing more. I think there are huge issues out there right now, not being resolved, because often the wrong questions are asked and the wrong categories employed.
Thanks for your response. I will consider what you’ve said and I will have a look at the link.
Thanks again, and in all sincerity, God Bless.
Protoprotestant
http://proto-protestantism.blogspot.com/
I am not offended at all. I don’t listen to most music because my desire is to please Christ, not because I am on some radical mission; I never burned old books, records, or cds when Christ saved me, I simply stopped partaking in ungodly forms of entertainment. If it doesn’t glorify God, it has no place in my life. I don’t believe my walk with Christ is a pendulum swing, because it isn’t based on emotion or feeling; it is based on obedience and faithfulness. “Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.” Phil. 3:12. I am ever looking upward, not relying on emotional highs and lows, but fixated on Him. My walk isn’t perfect, but it is steady and streamlined.
Thanks for your comments, God bless you as well
Lyn
Dung, dung and more dung! If we could only see our stuff, our motives, our desires as what it is–dung. If it doesn’t bring glory to God, if it does not advance His kingdom, and if we are not submitting ourselves to being conformed to the image of Jesus, then we are messing around in nothing more than a sewage pit of lust and desires.
“If it doesn’t bring glory to God, if it does not advance His kingdom, and if we are not submitting ourselves to being conformed to the image of Jesus, then we are messing around in nothing more than a sewage pit of lust and desires.”
OUCH!!!
You are dead-on target with piercing statement.
Press on!
May the people of God grow not weary of repentance and faith. This wonder dog included.
Ouch indeed…I don’t think anybody gets what I’m saying. Not everything we do can advance the Kingdom…..doesn’t mean such activities are illegitimate… we still do them as Christians….but it’s part of this age, not the age to come.
When you step out the door and see a billboard, read a newspaper, talk with your co-workers, you are interacting with culture. Emotions, worldviews etc… are being thrust upon you. Do we live in fear and flee or do we interact?….do we try to conquer?
Submission and obedience to Christ is great…but what’s it look like? Does that mean I can’t read what Larry King says in the newspaper because he’s a liberal? Will I be infected? Or can I to a certain extent redeem reading a lost man’s commentary? Does it mean I can’t look at a billboard regarding an Art Festival? When my co-worker wants to tell me about his vacation in Florida do I plug my ears?
Of course not….so what’s the criteria? How do I understand these things? Do I go by what feels right? Or do I establish an understanding of how we as Christiand relate to the world by answering critical questions concerning culture, the holy and the common?
You can’t hide from the culture….the question is not if we interact, but how.
I’m not encouraging anyone to listen to secular music, if you thought so, you misunderstood me…but I’m saying that we’re fooling ourselves if we think we’re walking around and not interacting and being affected by the culture.
What did Paul mean by the weaker brother in Romans? What does it mean to bind your own conscience where Scripture does not bind? What does it mean when you bind the consciences of others?
If I really accepted ‘the beat’ argument, then I would have to go all the way and never listen to any music at all. There’s no such thing as Sacred Music….so it would be safer to lay it all aside.
Big questions…..more than emotional responses are required. Do we accept the Sufficiency of Scripture or not?
Thanks to everybody for these posts. Though we don’t agree….I benefit.
Proto
Proto,
Thanks for your comments. However, we are going to have to consider the bigger picture – it is not the world and all of its cultures. The big picture is God and is “in Him we live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28).
1 Corinthians 10:31 makes it clear that “Whether you eat or drink or whatsoever you do, do all to the glory of God.” Therefore, you are correct in your statement that the question is how do we interact, not if we do. The answer for the believer is that every aspect of our being is to be involved in the worship of the Creator.
If we “step out the door and see a billboard, read a newspaper, talk with our co-workers” etc, we are to do all of those things in a way that brings honor and glory to the Savior. In so doing, we are advancing the kingdom because we are seeking those things which are above and not the things of the earth.
The saying, “He is so heavenly minded that he is of no earthly good” is based on a wrong understanding of Scripture. The truth is that we, as true believers, should be so heavenly minded that only then are we of any earthly good.
This is definitely the bigger picture. If the view we have of God is not in the proper perspective and we do not seek to give the Lord Jesus Christ the preeminent worship (preeminent is not one among many, but first alone!), then we will have problems with the culture. We will fail to realize that music is not as amoral as the majority within the realms of Christianity blindly believe. It is of interest to note that no well-known unbeliever has ever stated that music is amoral. Quite the opposite is true. They know the truth and it is by this that they seek to control the minds of believers who have been duped.
The sufficiency of Scripture is a valid and the only viable belief, but understanding its truth means that it must apply to every aspect of our lives not just the ones that we like or want it to control.
The Desert Pastor
Well put DP. In living in this world we are and always will inundated with the world’s attempts to get us away from our Lord. This has always been the enemy’s main objective. To whom does he want our attention to be diverted to? Himself of course. It’s one or the other. The enemy comes in a multitude of colours, shapes and sizes while God comes as Himself. The enemy can offer anyone a whole host of modifications and styles and themes to custom suit their needs, but they all lead to death and hell. He is the champion of offering the half-truth. He can twist and manipulate the scriptures better than anyone, and has had success for thousands of years. He had some say in the music in heaven according to Ezekiel, and seems to know what to do with it even today. When my wife and I live life, we have had to make some serious decisions about where we shop and what we do for entertainment and such. We don’t shop at malls and we don’t buy our groceries in big box grocery stores. We have made our minds up to buy from those whom we know are honourable. Where is your hard earned money going and what causes are you supporting? Home Depot, Home Sense and others openly support the Gay and Lesbian movement and direct some of their profits to fuel this abomination. Do you shop there Proto? General Electric funds the Islam faith in its various forms. Who makes your light bulbs and appliances? Ignorance is not an excuse, and when we stand before God to give account to where our money (that God gave us) has gone, what will we say? Do you support the pornographic magazines at your local supermarket by shopping there? We have bus stops here in Canada that sport some of the most seductive and pornographic images that are out there today. I personally don’t want to see them and I don’t want my wife to feel dirty and exposed as a woman by passing them, so we go around them. We don’t have TV at all, we don’t go to movies and we don’t participate in entertainment that others dive into. We are what the world calls boring. Our so-called Christian friends call us too closed minded. This is my reasoning. As DP said, our all in all must be done for God’s glory alone, plus every time we subject ourselves to ideas, music, images and philosophies that go in direct opposition to God’s truth, we are de-sensitizing ourselves and allowing those things an in road into our lives and thinking. What are some of your favorite movies, what are some of your favorite TV shows? If you can answer these questions then you have told me that you are too familiar with the world. Is the world crucified to you or does it fascinate you?
Protoprotestant
I thought you may be interested in this article, here is the link, http://www.apuritansmind.com/PuritanWorship/McMahonGodFaddishNostalgic.htm
lyn
I also appreciate that a Christian artist like Steve Camp has taken on CCM (in particular) for its blasphemous nature.
A Call For Reformation In The Contemporary Christian Music Industry:
by Steven John Camp
Those of us who are privileged to represent our Lord Jesus Christ in the arts should be galvanized by mission, not by ambition; by mandate, not by accolades; by love for the Master, not by the allurements of this world.
Out of love and zeal for Biblical truth and the desire to bring it to light, I come to you, brethren, burdened and broken over the current state of Christian music. I come–not out of a heart of condemnation, but out of convictions immersed in tears as one in desperate need daily of our Lord’s grace to be conformed to His image. I come aware of the depravity from which I have been saved and that my heart, apart from the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, is desperately wicked and eternally sick. Early in my own musical journey I wrote songs that neither represented good music or precise theology. My motives were vitiated; my actions were not godly; and my lips were unclean. The thirst for prominence and position made my heart prideful, judgmental and callused. But the Lord, out of His infinite grace and otherworldly love, broke me with His chastening hand to bring true repentance in my own life–and it’s that life of repentance, which is my greatest desire and my greatest failing. It is out of the crucible of those experiences that I am driven to speak with conviction on these issues.
This document is a call to Reformation-a clarion call to recover Biblical Christianity in the arts. Music is a powerful tool from the Lord Jesus to His church intended for worship, praise, encouragement, edification, evangelism, teaching, admonishing. And exhorting God’s people to holiness–with always our chief aim “to glorify God and worship Him forever.” But beloved, the serpentine foe of compromise has invaded the camp through years of specious living, skewed doctrine and most recently secular ownership of Christian music ministries. While I assert this, I recognize that there are godly men and women who love the Lord that work for these companies and record for these companies, but that’s not the issue here. The crux of the matter is that the overall nature of our industry has dramatically shifted. The Apostle Paul warns… “It takes only a little leaven to leaven the whole lump.” (1 Corinthians 5:6) When sin is tolerated it ultimately permeates and corrupts the entire church. What is pure today will inevitably be polluted tomorrow if we do not “purge out the old leaven…” (Ibid. 5:7) In the past several years there has been a non-so-subtle drifting away from Christocentric music to an anthropocentric music. Sadly this has resulted in various visible manifestations of spiritual sedition– where currently, the CCMI finds itself on a slippery slope sliding away at accelerated speeds from the Savior, the Scriptures and the church.
Contemporary Christian music originally began unashamedly declaring Jesus Christ as Lord. Within a few years His name was replaced by several generic titles filtering out the name of God ultimately to the non-specific cognomen, “Love.” This led to a multitude of synonyms: “The Man Upstairs”; “My Higher Power”; “Our Family Values Expert”; ad nauseam…ad infinitum. This Biblical illiteracy I’ve coined as theological ebonics – Biblical language diminished to cultural unintelligible chatter affirmed as profound, acceptable spiritual truth. Os Guinness is “spot on” when saying “[we have seen a change] from the emphasis on ‘serving God’, to an emphasis on ‘serving the self’ in serving God.” The object of faith is no longer Christ, but our self-esteem; the goal of faith is no longer holiness, but our happiness; and the source of our faith is no longer the Scriptures, but our experience. Christian music currently reflects this. We are producing a generation of people that “feel” their God, but do not know their God.
When Martin Luther stood at Wittenberg’s Door in the year 1517, he called for reformation from the recalcitrant Roman Church. Now is our turn, almost five centuries later, to sound the alarm in our generation. This time, to call the Christian Music Industry to reformation–back to the supremacy, sufficiency and Lordship of Jesus Christ. Genuine revival–a fresh return to obedience in Christ–is surely needed today, but that would be almost impossible given the current environment of our industry. Why? True revival is marked by repentance; true repentance brings restitution; true restitution demands that Christian music be owned and operated only by believers whose aim is the glory of God consistent with Biblical truth. This means that the current CCMI labels music return all the money they have received to their respective secular counterparts that purchased them and divorce alliances with them. The CCMI has gone too far down the wide road of worldliness and there is not the tenacity of character and the Biblical courage of heart and mind to do the right thing no matter what the cost.
These are serious times, brethren, that call for real answers. This is not a time for duplicitous people, proclaiming a diluted message, from disingenuous ministries. It is a time for those whose lives are tempered with the steel of righteousness, girded with the belt of truth, standing firm in the gospel of peace, raising high their shield of faith, guarded with the helmet of salvation, to wield the sword of the Spirit with a surgeon’s exactitude, praying always with all prayer and supplication, with all perseverance for all the saints in the Spirit. (Ephesians 6:10-20)
Will we champion again the manifesto of the Reformers: Sola Fide (by faith alone); Sola Gratia (by grace alone); Sola Scriptura (on the Word alone); Solus Christus (because of Christ alone); and Soli Deo Gloria (to the Glory of God alone)? Do we have the conviction of heart and courage of mind to do what’s just? Do we have the boldness to shout above the roar of the marketplace that the Emperor has no clothes? Will we leave our careers, our contracts, our carefully cultivated plans and press releases, our unequally yoked record companies to serve the Lord again with all our heart, soul, mind and strength? There is no gray in this–it’s a matter of obedience.
Oh brethren, “we have a name to be alive, but we are dead.” (Revelation 3:1) There is no greater love song to proclaim than the once for all sacrifice of Jesus Christ our Lord at Calvary, but yet others feel content to sing about the chaff of this world. What the New Testament church wrestled with the least is what our industry craves the most–money. How dare we think we can play politics with God, with His truth and with His church. We can’t negotiate with sin no matter what kind of capital is at stake–and that really is the issue here.
Let us “press on, that [we] which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of [us].” (Philippians 3:12) Let us “lay aside every weight, and the sin that so easily ensnares us and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.” (Hebrews 12:1) Let us fall on our faces before our Holy Lord, repent of our sin and return to our First Love. With lives bathed in His grace, let us provoke one another to love and good works. With undivided hearts may we leave the prodigal’s pigpen and come back to the Father’s house. Let us commit to prayer and fasting, seeking the Lord’s will with a broken, contrite and obedient heart. Let us return to our churches and to the faithful pastors/elders that shepherd us-submitting ourselves to their godly leadership. May we be students of His Word being filled daily with His Spirit. Let us come away from an industry that has all but abandoned Christ and forge, by God’s grace, what it was always meant to be … a ministry. Doing His work, His way, according to His Word, by His Holy Spirit.
Pray on this, Pounding on “Wittenberg’s Door”, let us come together to make history- to make Contemporary Christian Music…Christian again.
Yours for the Master’s use,
Signed: Steve Camp
2 Corinthians 4:5
I’m not ‘lock-step’ with all of Steve Camp’s perspectives, but it’s a great “shot across the bow” to the CCM industry.
Here is a link to his 107 anti-CCM theses:
http://www.solideogloria.org/beliefs/stevecamp/pt1.htm
Soli Deo Gloria!
- Jeff H
Jeff H., I’ve read this piece by Steve Camp. I have enjoyed many of his writings from the past; however, I no longer read Mr. Camp’s blog. When he upheld Carrie Prejean as a ‘Christian’ I knew he was in need of prayer, and now I find he endorses Rick Warren. Here is the link concerning that endorsement, http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=17655
lyn
lyn,
Thank you for the link and the other eye-opener. I had no idea.
So sad.
“If we have died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; if we are faithless, he remains faithful — for he cannot deny himself.” (2 Timothy 2:11-13)
Thanks be to God for His faithfulness!
- Jeff H
I had read that about Camp a while back – sad indeed.
For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
Jeff said: I’m not ‘lock-step’ with all of Steve Camp’s perspectives, but it’s a great “shot across the bow” to the CCM industry.
My addition is that I think the time has come for a shot through the bow of the CCM indu$try to scuttle that ship.
bro Michael
p.s. Lyn – thanks for the link although it is very disappointing.
Lyn,
Thanks for the article…but that is dealing with issues pertinent to worship. As far as that goes I’m a hardline adherent of the Regulative Principle of Worship. I don’t believe in musical instruments in worship at all.
The discussion we’re having is about culture.
But…..the Puritans were great folks…..and I think really misunderstood. A lot of people have a kind of caricatured image of them.
Thanks,
Proto
… Right, and besides, what’s wrong with adding just a little bit of cultural-relevance leaven, right?
“Do not love the world or the things in the world. If any one loves the world, love for the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life, is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world passes away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides for ever.” (1 John 2:15-17)
Right?
Desert Pastor…and then later down the post….Revival and Ref,
Thanks for your comments. I appreciate your thoughtfulness.
Actually I totally agree with you…I’ve never agreed with the statement about being so heavenly minded we can be of no earthly good. I’ve always rejected that. We have to be heavenly minded only then can we be of use here on the earth and not be deceived by the world or worldliness.
What I’m trying to avoid here is two extremes.
One is the Transformationalist View of culture….which I don’t detect here at this site but it is pretty dominant in Evangelical and Reformed Circles. This Kuyperian/Dominionist view says we have to be engage to conquer and transform…we want to take over holywood, politics, etc….
I think this stems from a very mistaken view of the Kingdom of God and makes culture into something Holy. It’s Holy so, we have to work to clean it up so it will be what it’s supposed to be. I would say, the world will not be perfected until Christ comes and establishes the New Heavens and the New Earth. This is trying to force the Triumph (the Not-yet) into the now (the Already)
I have no interest in taking over…we’re not supposed to try…we never can…the church I think will always be a remnant. For example, I don’t even a vote. I don’t care if you do…but I don’t see anyone to vote for.
The other view is the Separatist View of culture…this says we don’t just do everything as Christians…..everything we even come into contact with has to be Christian or we’ll be polluted. Culture is also Holy in this view, but instead of Transforming….we flee and try to form a Christian sub-culture. Again trying to live in the Already when we’re still in the not yet. We’re still in this age living in hope for the age to come….
Let me define Holy here…I’m probably using it a little differently then what some might be thinking. I’m using it in reference to the Kingdom of God. When I say culture is neither Holy or Unholy….what I’m saying is Holy things directly pertain to the Heavenly Kingdom. Christ REIGNS over all…..but in this present age not everything is in His REALM. He is the Lord of Creation…but the Kingdom of God is his Holy Domain where He reigns in the hearts of His people, an invisible kingdom seen only by those who have eyes to see…a new heart. Only the Holy will continue to the new heavens and the new earth. The Unholy will perish and the Common (the matrix or venue, the delay realm in which the gospel works will simply pass away.)
Culture is just fallen man’s attempt to understand the world. He always generates idols and tries to build Babels.
Culture is not Holy…not part of the Kingdom of Christ. We as His people are Holy and certainly whever we do….has to be done as Christians. But we live in a fallen world and we can pretend that we’re not interacting with it….but we are.
The one view says All is Holy, so transform it….the other view presented by revival and reformation is that All is Holy…so flee from it.
Same mistake, different response.
Paul says in 1 Corinthians that we don’t judge those who are outside…God will judge them. We can’t flee them…because then we would have to go out of the world. We call sin what it is….but we don’t walk around acting like we’re in heaven almost with a scowl on our face toward the lost. Where’s the love in Christ in that?
Paul had no problem buying meat that had been offered to idols. Those who did have a problem with it, he categorized as weaker brethren. So, if I were around someone who was a weaker brother…sure I might not tell them that I read a book by a non-christian…..or talk about how everyone at work is talking about this song….isn’t it interesting how the lost man can’t see x,y,and z? I won’t tell him how when my co-worker says Hey, that’s a really deep song…..since I’ve heard it, I can say… why do you think so? Or, actually I think it’s sad….in which case he’ll say oh, why do you think so.
I won’t share that with him because he’ll be offended.
Where does this kind of thinking end? Did you turn on your lights this morning? What does your electric company do with their money? What bank do you use? You don’t buy any clothes made overseas? You pay taxes to a government that uses that money to murder people in other countries? Nowhere does the New Testament present this kind of pietism. It does deal with it though.
Everyone seems to forget, Nero was the Emperor when most of the Epistles were written. Paul did not have this view of the Roman Empire that we have to flee and hide.
By the way I haven’t had television-proper for 15 years. What movies do I watch? Those that are edifying. Things that help me to think and understand the world…not just mindless entertainment. Christian’s can be pretty ignorant of a lot going on in the world and what’s shaping the policies of governments and societies. They get duped real easy if they’re not vigilant. I watched in 2002 as a president deceived his country with false information into a war. The Christians led the cheerleading pack. I’ve been studying history and current events for years and immediately knew what he was saying was wrong……and that it would not turn out how he said.
What if my son was 18 right then and wanted to enlist? Most Christians would have encouraged their sons. I would have told him that he was sinning.
What happened in Germany in the 1933? Here’s a nation of ‘christians’ that went right along with the dreams of a leader. Some weren’t deceived…but those who were ignorant of what was happening around them were.
The Transformationalist view of culture tends to accomodate itself to be relevant. It’s almost like you have to watch all the movies and listen to all the music. I can take it or leave it. If you don’t want to listen to music or watch something or read something…then don’t. But if you think you’re being more holy, a better Christian by not doing so….Paul has words for you….Will-worship, self-imposed religion. Jesus said it more plainly…But in vain do you worship me teaching for commandments the doctrines of men.
The Separatist view tends to be driven by one or two factors.
1. Fear
2. A legalistic tendency
For a lot of people they are so terrified of the world and having to think, they find a comfort in fleeing from it and living in a shell….much like the monastic movement in the middle ages.
For others they see the Bible as a set of rules to follow rather than a revelation of Jesus Christ. That’s one legalistic tendency.
Another is sort of a hybrid of the previous….they find a comfort in a list of rules and regulations…due to fear.
One piece of chocolate cake is fine….nothing immoral about that…or good. It’s just a piece of cake…enjoy it….as a Christian…we can enjoy things, it is allowed.
Eat five and you get sick….the problem isn’t the cake, the problem is you were not wise and you took something that was permissible and made it sin.
I would say, since we’re not under the tutor-like aspect of the OT as described in Galatians….we’re supposed to exercise wisdom understanding that rather than live under Thou Shalt nots (by way of form)…..we live under Do…Love God and Love your neighbour (which is the positive reciprocal of the do nots). Since we have the full revelation, we are expected to live wisely…saturated in Scripture…applying it to every situation. As I’m standing in line at the grocery…I can listen to the song on the radio….think about what’s it saying….about lost people….about our culture…..and I can even appreciate it.
It’s completely idolatrous….but at the same time it can still exhibit some remnant of the imago dei. I don’t make it an idol. It’s like looking at a Raphael sculpture….Amazing…even fallen man shows tremendous gifts from God….incredible insight into the creation….and yet it’s just an idol.
I can look at the US Capitol building and say that is idolatrous…and I would be right. It’s a tower of Babel.
On the other hand…I can say that’s really neat…that is an amazing piece of architecture. How glorious the world would have been had not the fall happened….I can’t wait for the new heavens and earth and the resurrected body.
Never amoral…that’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying we live as Christians…wisely and without fear. Everything has a morality behind it.
Wisdom, not childish checklists…not you, Desert Pastor, I think you get that part.
Separatist Culture-piety would say regarding the cake….No one can have any chocolate cake…because they might abuse it. The New Testament deals over and over again with this kind of mindset. Jesus excoriates the Pharisees for it and Paul calls it demonic….forbidding to marry and commanding to abstain from meats.
Men have no right to forbid what God has not forbidden…for the earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof.
Desert Pastor I appreciate your comments…I think you’re thinking these things through. The Scriptures are Sufficient for the Christian Life…..that’s my point exactly….how we as Christians understand the world. The Bible was not written to tell the lost culture how to do economics, politics, or whatever. Those things are not part of the Holy Realm….we are and we interact with them…we’re pilgrims remember?……but the Bible doesn’t give a blueprint for the Common Grace order….that falls under Natural Law.
As far as Mr. Revival and Reformation…you have a zeal but it is not according to knowledge. You have a legalistic and fear based piety which leads to self-righteousness and the kind of judgment the Scriptures condemn. I don’t mean to be offensive, but I used to be EXACTLY of the same mind as you…..I’m not sure you’re understanding the nature of the New Testament. I REALLY urge you to think through what you’re saying….it’s not good.
There are two extremes we must avoid. We are in but not of.
Great conversation. I hope others are benefitting from this…I know I am.
Protoprotestant
http://proto-protestantism.blogspot.com/
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To Jeff H,
I’m afraid you’re not understanding the discussion. I’m not saying we should love the world. In fact, it is often those who place their commandments above God’s….that end up with power-lust and pride.
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One last thing and I’ll be quiet for awhile..
Uh, we’re all on the internet here right? Are you saying that we can use it wisely….even though there are wicked things on the internet? Your ISP doesn’t allow anyone to go to wicked sites right?
I don’t think everyone here is thinking through what you’re saying……the very fact you’re on the internet and on this site……well, it kind of proves my point.
Thanks for listening…….I’ll be quiet so I don’t get kicked off.
God Bless,
Proto
Proto,
First, we have strayed from the topic of music, but I do appreciate the input.
Having said that, I would also disagree with both positions which you have listed. However, I would say that as a separatist myself, I would clearly delineate where I stand much different. I do not do or teach the things I do out of a sense of fear or because of legalism. My goal in preaching has never been to dictate to the hearer what they are to watch or not to watch, what they are to hear or not to hear, etc., etc.
Yet, my goal has always been in teaching that the goal of every true believer is to become more like the Lord Jesus Christ today than yesterday, and more like Him next week than I am today. This is what is taught in Romans 8:28-29. It is for this purpose that we are predestinated.
Proto, I agree with many of the examples you would use but would draw the line on those images still holding a vestige of the image of God. It is man that is created in the image of God, not things, or works of art. While we do not look at The Capitol building and declare the pile of sticks and stones to be evil in the positions they have been placed, it is what that structure represents that becomes either evil or good. Same thing with a block of wood or marble that has been pulled out of a mighty oak or out of a quarry. The wood or marble is not in and of itself evil or good, but what they are used for that makes them so. You carve an image to represent the crucified Christ and you find a group like the Roman Catholic harlot has created an image that clearly breaks the commandments of God.
I also agree that I am not forbidding the eating of cake. Personally, if it was chocolate I would eat two pieces (albeit small ones) LOL. Seriously, there are a lot of areas that we can say are on the line and there are many areas we are given leeway to make right decisions. Even further, there are areas that are not clearly delineated in the Scriptures as being an explicit command from God. However, I am afraid this is an open avenue that allows for a greater multitude of evils to creep in because Christians have failed to realize that every aspect of our life is to be holy. It is not that we are only to touch holy things or live a monastic life, but that the direction of what we take is to so reflect the Lord Jesus Christ that there would never be a concern for our testimony, the testimony of our local church, or the chance of a slight against the Name and Person of the Most High.
So, let’s clarify in regards to music. I am convinced from Scripture (and much personal study up to and including at the university level in regards to music) that music is definitely not amoral. The beat is significant and to gloss over this to support a favorite genre seems to be the favorite pastime of those who call themselves believers. Music standards slip, tv standards follow, then dress standards, and then Christians wonder why their lives are falling apart. Their children listen to the world’s beat and it is deemed acceptable because God does not “condemn” rock/metal/hip-hop/rap/jazz/etc/etc.
If God created all things good and the angels sang together at the creation of the earth, then music in its purest form must have been deemed as important to God. And we know that all things that God created for good get touched by the evil one and a counterpart is formed with the famous words, “Yea, has God really said……” It may not at first appear to be completely evil, but good with just a tinge of something unholy – the 99% good and 1% unholy. That becomes acceptable, so the ante gets upped to 2%, then 3% and before long larger numbers appear, and at each level it is only a small jump to the next level. The problem is that for the most part, Christians have forgotten to look back the other direction and see how truly far they have gone from the standard of perfection.
I hope this clarifies and feel free to ask further questions, or present your thoughts.
The Desert Pastor
I thank you Proto for your comments and I have received the same sort of input from others as well. I have been called condemning, angry, pessimistic, sarcastic…etc. But my only simple reasoning is this and this alone. Jesus said I do only that which I see My Father do. Nothing more, nothing less. He lived here on earth, lived in the world, interacted with the world, and never once became an island as it were. He did however conduct His Father’s business at every juncture and did nothing in and of Himself. You or someone else might say, ‘But that was Jesus’…to that I say, ‘What’s your point?’ Are we not called, commanded to be like Christ? Isn’t He our hero and example? If so, then we must emulate Him. My simplistic way of thinking give people mental cramps sometimes because I believe the quickest way between point A and B is a straight line. If there’s anything that is holding us back from being usable by God for His glory, we must sever it, pluck it out or cut it off. Because we live in this world for God’s purposes and His purposes alone, we must be willing to sacrifice all for this. It’s that simple. I just speak what I see in God’s word and if it condemns then it condemns. Please read this page on my blog. it will explain my journey, as it were and my relationship with God. http://revivalandreformation.wordpress.com/about/
Apparently, there is an IPhone app that helps men with their libido. It plays a specially generated music that can up a man’s sex drive a whopping 85% if listened to. Just thought I would throw a little more fodder on the flame with that one.
From your blog:
Is that this article?
Is that what we called it: ‘pagan beats’ ?
Have we done that?
Is that us?
Has it been?
Is that what we’ve done here?
You know, the only place the word ‘pagan’ appears is in your article.
In Christ,
- Jeff H
BTW, my post is addressing Proto… in case I wasn’t clear (sorry).
- Jeff H
Jeff H
Actually no, that wasn’t about your site. I’ve had some private discussions, seen this on other websites and then have also encountered several websites that apparently into serious censorship of all discussion. On the one, I didn’t even think I was really disagreeing with them…I just raised a point (it was not regarding music)….and they rejected me.
Your website is quite refreshing in that…there does seem to be discussion here. This thread is starting to generate a bit and seems to have reached a ‘tapped out’ point, but overall this has been a refreshing experience. I enjoy and benefit from the discussion and hope others do as well. Disagreement is fine, discussion is fine, but when it degenerates into juvenile jabs….well that’s different.
It just seems like I keep running into this music discussion…and then no one would allow a difference of opinion. I’m glad at least someone here was willing to listen.
And even though you didn’t use the word ‘pagan’ here…other do….and it is dealing with essentially the same issues regarding culture.
Thanks…..
Proto
Revival and Reformation….
I’m not sure what the point of that was….
If you’re trying to say that music affects people…sure, no one denies that, though I would certainly deny the claims of the advert you cite.
If you’re trying be clever….it didn’t work. Rather childish.
Proto
Proto,
the link I gave dealt with music as well, as it pertains to worship. It was indirectly related with the topic at hand. Overall, we must discern our entertainment choices through the lens of the bible. Music, whether in worship or in the privacy of our homes, must not be taken lightly. We are to do all for the glory of God, that covers a 24/7 way of life.
I particularly liked this statement for Dr. McMahon’s piece, ” That is why the Bible guides the worshipper in his quest to worship God. The objective standard of the Word of God sets the stage for spirit worshippers to Worship. To exclude one or the other is to exclude true worship.
Also, it must be remembered, that worship, done in truth, is a communication of truth. Songs are conduits to theological manipulation. “Allow me to write the music for a nation,” Plato said, “and I will control the nation.”
Well said indeed
Desert Pastor,
Thank you for your comments. We differ on a theoretical level, but to be quite honest…I don’t think we’re really too far apart. I appreciate your spirit and your thoughtfulness.
If I’ve given the impression that I’m Mr. Cool Rock and Roll, then you’ve misunderstood.
I spend most of my time listening to theological lectures, sermons, and history lessons…..
Dominionists and those that have a Triumphalist view of culture usually consider me to be rather retreatest………I can hear some laughs coming from this site.
I only argue here to make a point….work out the principle….and avoid the binding of consciences. To bind someone’s conscience and say ‘you can’t do that, that’s sin,’ when the Scriptures haven’t called it sin…..well, the Bible says, that’s sin.
I’m not accusing you of that….I don’t think you’ve been arguing that point.
I think….many people (not you) kind of shoot from the hip and have not really worked out why they think what they do.
Blessings,
Protoprotestant
Thank you so much for posting on this. I passed this information on to my 25 year old son who I have been praying would feel conviction about some of the music he listens to. He read both articles and listened all the way through all the video lessons. He was convinced he needed to throw some CDs away and he is rethinking how he thinks about music now. He was one who always said all that matters is the lyrics. He still has some questions, but I think he has come to a real breakthrough on this issue and I am so glad. Thanks Def-Con!
Lyn,
Point taken….I’m not trying to be combative with you…..
But, the Puritans and Reformers like Zwingli….they would have no instruments in church due to Redemptive Historical reasons….and then at home, they had no problem with instruments and secular songs.
When the church gathers….it is regulated by Scripture in a way that regular life is not.
I’m not saying regular life is not regulated…don’t misunderstand.
I’m just saying it is different.
The Reformed View was always….
Worship and the Church: Unless it is commanded, it’s forbidden.
Christian Life: Unless it is forbidden, it is permitted.
On the latter point…..I would add, with wisdom.
Thanks.
Rose, May the Lord be praised! I urge all here to pray for your son, may God grant him the discernment needed to glorify Him in ALL things.
Lyn
Oh… where was this? I’m curious and would like to see what their perspective is on the issue. It may be enlightening. ‘Pagan Beats’ sounds like the title of the post… please post a link.
Thanks!
- Jeff H
I think you are the one who has missed the point here, proto.
As revivalandreformation pointed out near the beginning of this thread: music is not spiritually neutral.
Lyrically, most songs are spiritually dangerous.
Also — and this is the point of this thread — a lot of music is spiritually dangerous because of the fleshly response to the beat.
So, while Paul writes that all things are permissible, but not all things are profitable… you must ask whether you are permitting something harmful to your Christian walk or does not glorify God.
“ “All things are lawful,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful,” but not all things build up. Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor. Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience. For “the earth is the Lord’s, and the fullness thereof.” If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience. But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for the sake of conscience— I do not mean your conscience, but his. For why should my liberty be determined by someone else’s conscience? If I partake with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of that for which I give thanks? So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God, just as I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.” (1 Corinthians 6:23-33)
Others here have already pointed this out to you, but the conviction on your part seems lacking, so maybe you are OK with having one foot in the world and one in God’s Kingdom.
Personally, I don’t see that happening anywhere in the Bible.
Also, proto, I noticed from your blogsite that you seem to like a lot of religious labels, but there (and here) I don’t see you use a lot of Scripture. You are fairly eloquent in making your points using “man’s wisdom”, but what is the case you present, if you can’t point back to God’s Word?
- Jeff H
Jeff H
What I’m writing about for the most part is the underlying issues of how we read the Word of God. We’re 21st Century Americans with a lot of baggage from our culture that we employ without even thinking about it. I’m arguing this affects how we read the Bible.
You don’t get Paul’s argument about all things being lawful. That’s the point I’m making…among many others that no one seems to answer or deal with…..The point is ‘binding’ people’s consciences.
The expedient part is somewhat subjective due to the understanding of the person, their employment of wisdom, and how best to serve the Kingdom given the particulars of the situation…..
The ironic part to me in all of this is that it is people like you and the R&R fellow that are trying to Worship God with ALL of your life and yet it is in vain because it is according to commandments and doctrines of men.
You attack me for employing men’s wisdom, but that’s actually what you’re doing….you’re saying you can determine (with no objective criteria) what is right and wrong….not by Biblical Principle but subjective standards….fleshly beats? What’s that? How do you know it’s fleshly? Because it gives you a ‘feeling’…….
I will say it for about the fifth time now….music is not spiritually neutral. I’m not saying that…I’m not saying it is immoral. I’m saying it is not part of the Holy Kingdom of God…BUT that doesn’t necessarily make it part of the Unholy Kingdom of Satan.
At this point….on this topic I would have to ask is there anyone out there following this thread that is even remotely benefitting from this conversation? Should we keep going? Or is it just a waste of time? I feel like we’re spinning wheels….I keep saying the same thing over and over and the same couple of people are arguing with me, but to no avail on either side or so it would seem.
It’s obvious I’m pretty much a heathen in your eyes….which is fine with me, but I wonder then why you continue to bother to engage me. Edifying discussion is good for a group such as this….Ad hominem combativeness is a waste of everyone’s time…
Proto
Proto,
No, we should not continue to engage; you have said a lot of nothing. Your posts are based on your opinions, not God’s infallible word. You have spoken what you believe is right. You seem to try to make points by talking out of both sides of your mouth, i.e., this comment, ‘music is not spiritually neutral. I’m not saying that…I’m not saying it is immoral. I’m saying it is not part of the Holy Kingdom of God…BUT that doesn’t necessarily make it part of the Unholy Kingdom of Satan.’
There is no straddling the fence in any of our ways, what we choose in all areas of life does indeed matter. The chief end of man is to glorify God, so to make light of or compromise any certain thing is to make light of glorifying God.
No one hear is saying you should NOT listen to music, the original post exposes the evil behind the beat of music and how it affects the mind. The mind controls behavior, thus, we MUST be selective in what we allow to enter in. Discernment is the key to distinguishing these matters.
My goal is not to debate with you, nor to offend. The bible is black and white, the Christian life is black and white. Today’s emerging/postmodern/new age/best life now/humanistic/man-centered/ritualistic Christianity has painted a broad picture of what it means to follow Christ, that picture is neither biblicallly based nor is it pleasing to God.
There are only 2 kinds of people, those who have truly been born from above by the supernatural power of God, and those who haven’t. The most dangerous kind are those who THINK they belong to Christ, based on any and everything OTHER than the power of God in the new birth through the cross of Christ. A heart that desires to please and obey ALL of God’s commands is the heart that has been transformed. Such a heart knows what pleases his Father.
Lyn
Lyn, you pegged it (again)!
Blessings,
- Jeff H
Wow, you think I’m promoting emerging best-life now theology?
That’s stuff is from the pit of hell.
I’m just a little baffled here, because everyone here seems to belong to some kind of Calvinistic categories…..but about 98% of people in Reformed Circles would not agree with the opinions given in this thread.
Most Reformed people are in the pro-culture camp…..they attack me as retreatist….they would call all you folks Pietistic types….a lot of Reconstructionists would call you Gnostic. I’m not saying this…I’m just asking…are you aware of it? That you’re way outside of the mainstream.
There are a handful of groups within Reformed Circles promoting the kind of piety I see here… Netherlands Reformed, some of the Protestant Reformed (PRC)….and some Reformed Baptists.. Is that what everyone here is? Reformed Baptist?
I mean I see quotes from AW Pink (long one of my favourite authors) and Spurgeon….he didn’t have these views of piety expressed here! He’d ask you to have a smoke with him..(smile)
I’m just a little confused. I feel like instead of talking with Reformed People….I’m talking with a bunch of Independent Fundamental Baptists….or even Wesleyan Types.
Sorry everyone has found me so odious….I will end this discussion….maybe someday I’ll engage on something else……
I’m afraid no one here has understood anything I have said. Perhaps I’m just a bad communicator…..but it would seem to me there’s something else at work here…..
Here’s where the problem lies, trying to ‘categorize’ people. As I’ve already stated, either you are a blood bought born from above follower of Christ, a bondservant, or you aren’t.
Being reformed, or a calvinist, or fundamental, or wesleyan will NOT get you into heaven. Being born from above by God ALONE will…it’s all of grace-thank you Jesus!!
The best way to communicate is to use truth—God’s word is all that is needed to combat error.
Lyn
So with the posts that DefCon and others publish, proclaiming right and wrong, black and white morality with the ONLY emphasis being God’s glory we inevitably run up against the brick wall of compromise. I want this and I want that…runs through and through the comments while the authors of this blessed blog try in vain to talk sense into certain someones, but alas to no avail. Basically we will stand before the Judge of all the earth one day give account on what we did, said and thought and was it or was it not for God’s glory. With those of you who like to listen to secular music, go to the beach have your vacations in Las Vegas and watch TV, what will be your excuse? The Bible says that the way you or I judge one another, will be the same way in which we are judged…so be it. One thing I can say is this in all honesty: I am getting to the place where when I commit a sin of either commission or omission, I can almost hear the whip tearing through my Lord’s back. Does your sin have the same effect on you?