Rick Warren, John Piper and Deception in the Church

72 Responses to Rick Warren, John Piper and Deception in the Church

1. SLIMJIM says:

   April 26, 2010 at 11:09 pm

   Wow…this is a very thorough post will lots of follow up links for those who might not be familiar with the multitude of problems with Warren.
2. rodericke says:

   April 27, 2010 at 2:09 am

   This reminds me of so many things, first and foremost is how we are often given as an example, the relationship between George Whitefield and John Wesley as how we Christians ought to interact with those of deviant doctrine. But folks, Wesley was as much a liar as any liar, even before you get to his doctrine. Look up how Wesley slandered Augustus Toplady (for more see this link).

   Compromise is all around us. It is disheartening when those we have respected fall into compromise and expect to us to follow along.

   Toplady had to be disheartened at Whitefield’s refusal to publicly address Wesley’s behavior and doctrine.

   I’m not certain if Piper’s invite to Warren will result in a compromise except that I have seen Warren say things about God and the Bible that are nothing but outright fabrications. Where some may claim this is merely application, it appears to be license.

   Warren could very well get on that platform and say nothing “unorthodox”, just as he had appeared to do with Piper on the phone. However, this doesn’t change years and years of his erroneous teaching.

   I am eager to stand with uncompromising men of faith — like Toplady, like Athanasius and others. I’ve become so tired of seeing and interacting with compromisers. I’ve become so tired of being told I have to follow some compromising “pastor” or I’ll be considered “outside the faith”. Where are the real men of faith???
3. Manfred says:

   April 27, 2010 at 4:41 am

   First – I’ve hated Rick Warren’s man-centered, Schuler-schooled theology since I was first made aware of it. I’ve read and critiqued both of his “purpose driven” books.

   But

   That third video, below the word, LIAR, – where is it a serious departure from Truth? I did not hear him imply or declare that works save. While his metaphors and preaching style are repugnant to me, what he said was summed up in the opening scene (before beard): saving faith with produce works. He did not say – unless I missed it – that works produce saving faith.

   Lastly – Rick Warren is no preacher of the gospel. He is, as recently observed, a chameleon. He’s provided lots of material for critical review. Not sure that third video serves well to display Warren’s error.
4. Ministry Addict says:

   April 27, 2010 at 10:22 am

   Rick Warren: “God won’t ask about your religious background or doctrinal views.”

   I don’t think God will be asking about my “doctrinal views,” because HE ALREADY KNOWS my doctrinal views (and everything else.) Regardless of where we stand in our different views on the Judgment Seat / Great White Throne scenario, I would hope we could all agree that judgment day will be more like a sentencing procedure than a trial.
5. Manfred says:

   April 27, 2010 at 10:28 am

   Amen, Ministry Addict. God need not ask anything. The biblical account records that each man will be judged according to the deeds done in the flesh, all of which are recorded in His books. Anyone whose name is not recorded in the Lamb’s Book of Life will be doomed.

   The record is beyond anyone’s ability or right to question it or have it thrown out. The Righteous Judge reads the deeds and the names and pronounces Judgment.

   All praise and honor and glory and power by unto the Lamb of God, forever and forever!
6. Denise says:

   April 27, 2010 at 4:14 pm

   Great post! We have seen a multitude of reasons why not only is Warren a heretic, but we have reasons to doubt Piper’s discernment and wisdom (remember: he’s touted other false teachers in his pulpit for YEARS).

   Piper asked for reasons to “feel bad about inviting” Rick Warren (that was a moment of unteachable defiance). Well, not only HAS there been a flood of information PRIOR to this dispicable choice of speaker, but now with the info out yet AGAIN, I ask

   WHAT ABOUT NOW PIPER?

   But mark this well: there is never enough evidence for a skeptic, of which Piper is one. There wasn’t enough for Driscoll nor for Wilson. This won’t be enough either.

   And I wonder why Piper wanted reasons to “feel bad”? This is a matter of Truth and fidelity to Christ and His command.

   Piper has committed treason repeatedly over the years. This is no exception and wait until next year.

   Btw, Piper is also BIG on the inter-faith/Ecumenical World Council of Churches’ Lausanne Congress.

   Secondary separation? There’s no choice! Of course we separate from men who participate in the wicked deeds of false teachers! See 2John.

   But I guess biblical doctrine is optional for most “Christians” ranging from Justification by Faith alone, to the exclusivity of Jesus as the ONLY Way, Truth, and Life, to the reality of Total Depravity and Hell.

   That’s why Piper and his minions won’t worry about this LATEST treasonous move. Its just a mere matter of views, not Truth.

   How absolutely disloyal to Christ and HIS sheep!
7. Mickey Merrie says:

   April 27, 2010 at 4:23 pm

   Proves Piper’s just another Pulpit Pimp. You can fool some of the Reformed Baptists all of the time, and all of the Reformed Baptists some of the time, but Pimper, you can’t fool all of them all of the time.
   Yep, just because he has credentials doesn’t mean he is called….unless he is a man who can lose his salvation (not possible) so he too is either unrepentant or unregenerate.
   We shall see which soon enough….and yes it ain’t just the prosperity pimps who are making merchandise of us.
   Follow Jesus alone as Lord/Pastor and no man. Listen yes but test anything any man says.
   Great post, thanks for your hard work on this.
8. Manfred says:

   April 27, 2010 at 4:36 pm

   I am convinced that becoming a “celebrity preacher” tests the mettle of any pastor, twisting many to succumb to the applause of man and end up denying the Gospel.

   The role of pastor requires shepherding the flock, which requires a personal knowledge of the sheep. Those who allow a church to grow beyond the size thus led become preachers and lords. It shall no be so among the followers of Christ, who are His.
9. Matthew Johnston says:

   April 27, 2010 at 6:36 pm

   We must be very careful how we speak about John Piper…..mistakes are made by all.

   I do not agree with his decision – even in the slightest but I do not think John is a “pulpit pimp”, nor a false teacher.

   _______________________________________________

   Mickey Merrie – You seemingly are exactly what Phil Johnson was referrring to here:

   http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2010/04/on-piper-warren-connection.html
   _______________________________________________
   Question:

   Denise you said ” Piper is also BIG on the inter-faith/Ecumenical World Council of Churches’ Lausanne Congress.”

   Can you please elaborate?

   I have been researching that movement and can see nothing really wrong with it – I am ignorant to it so far.

   This is from their statement of faith:

   “We also reject as derogatroy to Christ and the gospel every kind of sycretism and dialogue which implies that Christ speaks equally through all religions and idealogies.

   Jesus Christ, being the only God-man, who gave Himself as the only ransom for sinners, is the only mediator between God
   and people. There is no other way by which we must be saved”.

   - That does not sound like interfaith to me!
10. Coram Deo says:

    April 27, 2010 at 8:44 pm

    Manfred – in the very opening sequence of the video you reference Warren flatly denies Sola Fide, the material principle of the Reformation, yet faith is the sole instrument of our justification. By adding any element of works, which he explicitly does by stating “faith is not enough…”, he effectively denies Ephesians 2:8-9 and nullifies grace. This is no small matter of parsing words.

    Incidentally, the “LIAR” signage encompassed the video and the following comments, and I stand by my assertion.

    Denise – thanks for the kind encouragement. You asked, “what about Piper”? My response is that he is to be marked out a la 2 Thess. 3:14-15. Fellow believers should not associate with him that he might be ashamed, but they should treat him as a brother that he might be restored through repentance.

    Mickey – Piper is in error on this issue, but even so I’ve seen nothing that would lead me to conclude that he’s an apostate as I believe Warren to be. His behavior in this matter is certainly disheartening, and I believe dishonoring to Christ, but he’s not crossed the line to the point of teaching heresy – although by endorsing a notable heretic like Warren, Piper is guilty of actively legitimizing heresy, which is arguably just as bad as actively teaching it.

    May the Lamb Who was slain receive the reward of His suffering.

    In Him,
    CD
11. rodericke says:

    April 27, 2010 at 8:53 pm

    Maybe a quote by Spurgeon is relevant here:

    Complicity with error will take from the best of men the power to enter any successful protest against it. –C.H. Spurgeon
12. Manfred says:

    April 28, 2010 at 4:17 am

    CD,

    Thanks for your reply. The sign “LIAR” is appropriate for much of what Warren says. But in that third video, he does not deny faith in Christ as saving faith – he refutes faith that is dead and has nothing to show for itself; same as James.

    All responsible reformed preachers take care not to assure folks who have “said faith” to rest easy. It’s Truth that saving faith will produce works of some sort.

    Now I am of the opinion that Rick Warren doesn’t present the Gospel accurately. Can’t find it in his two “purpose” books. That video ain’t the best – not even good – at showing Warren for the false teacher he is.
13. DavidW says:

    April 28, 2010 at 9:30 am

    Coram Deo:

    Thank you for the documentation on Warren and Piper. Suffice it to say Warren is a chameleonic, scripture-twisting, ecumenical, professional businessman and politician who makes the likes of Balaam and Simon the magician look like pitifully amateur religious hucksters.

    But what about Piper? What’s so hard for people to see there? If he is half the discerning theologian and defender of the Truth that people insist on viewing him as, why does he keep supporting wolves like Warren and Driscoll? When Piper is on record as saying Warren is theologically and doctrinally sound, it reveals what he himself thus truly believes. In being in such agreement with Warren he has thus yoked himself with an unbeliever. How is that Biblical? Despite all the “Reformed” rhetoric and best-selling books he has written, the proof is in who he supports. And he has revealed himself to be a supporter of the enemies of the true Gospel, and the Christ of the Scriptures. You said it precisely in this statement: “by endorsing a notable heretic like Warren, Piper is guilty of actively legitimizing heresy, which is arguably just as bad as actively teaching it.” The sad thing is, despite his exposure, people still do not want to hear anything (even his own quotes) that would tarnish Mr. Piper’s sterling stature in their eyes. Why all the bending over backwards to make excuses for Piper? I just don’t get it.
14. Mickey Merrie says:

    April 28, 2010 at 9:47 am

    @ Matthew,
    Thanks for the link to pyro. Havn’t been there recently, nice site.
    He is entitled to his opinion and so are you, and I. My point is that the road is far more narrow then most folks think. Further, the new testiment spends a great deal of time warning us of just such folks as these. “Christians” today put far to much stock in men and their traditions/methods/receipes then in the bible in context. Further they depend on men to interpret/teach rather then the bible and the Holy Spirit. Why are we to test the spirits? So as to not shut out the Holy Spirit, and so as to not be deceived by familiar spirits. Too many folks have let popular preachers function as their holy spirit and have learned a salvation system. It won’t hold up under the purifying fire of the Lion of Judah.
    The only rethinking we need to do today is in relation to “on Whom we believe” not in the what we believe, or the why we believe.
    Look hard too at what Denise is telling you, as she is quite accurate in her assessment of the ecumenical movement….THAT is why we need the Word in context, as we are LEAD by the Holy Spirit.

    Further at Matthew;

    They will make merchandise of you…Marketing….Tmothy was told not to be a burden on the people, but to freely give as he had been freely given to, yet see what leads at Piper peck of pickled presents:
    http://www.desiringgod.org/

    By the way, does anyone know how to change my “sad face” (…the picture at right, so don’t be cute, please, unless you are really funny of course! LOL).
    I really am a happy person! How can I change that avatar thing? Help!
15. Manfred says:

    April 28, 2010 at 10:08 am

    Mickey,

    Create a free account with http://en.gravatar.com/ and choose your own face :-)
16. Darrel says:

    April 28, 2010 at 5:13 pm

    I’ve often wondered why so many are willing to come to the defence of a flaming heretic whether it’s Warren, or Piper, or Driscoll, or the pope or your own pastor. Perhaps it is because we have bought into the lies told for so many years and now to face that fact would put us in a bad light with others who have also believed the lies. So we make excuses and twist the facts so that we can retain the illusion of truth being spoken to us by our favorite “prophet”.

    Perhaps it’s time to determine who’s side we are on. “Choose you this day whom you shall serve”. How big does the heresy have to be before we take a stand against it? To listen to some people talk they are more interested in defending their favorite preacher than they are the Word of God, the faith once for all delivered to the saints, and even the Lord who bought them.

    A scathing indicement? You bet! And I’m being nice. What do you think our Lord will have to say to those who are more interested in defending some wanta-be self proclaimed prophet who speak lies from their own heart? There’s subject to be alot of repenting at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
17. Coram Deo says:

    April 28, 2010 at 8:43 pm

    DavidW / Darrel,

    If you could provide some examples of Piper espousing heresy I’d certainly be interested in reviewing it.

    As far as I can tell he is a brother in Christ, not a heretic, and the Bible is quite explicit about how we are to approach a brother who has fallen into error vs. an unbeliever or false teacher.

    At this point I’m compelled to treat Piper as the former, and Warren as the latter, but again if you can provide something other than assertions I’m open to instruction.

    Manfred – I’ve answered you once, but I’ll try again. You said: “That third video, below the word, LIAR, – where is it a serious departure from Truth? I did not hear him imply or declare that works save.”

    Maybe we’re hearing him say different things. In my first reply to you I stated: “in the very opening sequence of the video you reference Warren flatly denies Sola Fide, the material principle of the Reformation, yet faith is the sole instrument of our justification. By adding any element of works, which he explicitly does by stating “faith is not enough…”, he effectively denies Ephesians 2:8-9 and nullifies grace. This is no small matter of parsing words.”

    I’ve transcribed his actual “pre-beard” monologue below:

    Warren excerpt 1: “You see, it takes more than faith, it takes more than belief to really please God”

    This is a satanically inspired lie straight from the pit of hell. Anyone who believes that sinful men need to (or even have the ability to) “do something” to “really please God” have been deceived by the father of lies.

    In effect, Warren says “we must (or at least need) to do something to be pleasing to God”. Yet the message of scripture is crystal clear: we cannot do anything to be justified and be pleasing to God.

    Justification is by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone – in other words saving faith is the sole instrument whereby the object of that saving faith – Christ and His work – is apprehended. Anyone who denies this, or teaches to the contrary is deceived, and is found guilty of nullifying grace (see Galatians) and teaching another gospel – a gospel of works.

    In fact, apart from an outright repudiation of Christ Himself it’s hard for me to imagine a bigger lie for a professing evangelical Christian pastor to tell than to flatly deny Sola Fide as Rick Warren does in the third video above.

    Warren excerpt 2: “He says it takes faith that results in loving others” [i.e. in order to "please God"]

    Where does the Bible say “it takes faith that results in loving others to please God”? That’s pure, unvarnished, undisguised, naked works righteousness! Rick throws grace under the “law bus” in front of our very eyes!

    Anathema!

    LIAR!

    Evidently Rick just makes up scripture as he goes along. Perhaps this is yet more special revelation directly to his mind from the mouth of God?

    Do fallen man’s sinful works please God? Do even the redeemed with the Spirit indwelling them have perfect works that are untainted by sin? No. Our works are as filthy rags before the Lord, they are altogether worthless and meritless. The only good thing in us as believers is His abiding Spirit, and the fruit of the Spirit is manifestly not of us, not of the flesh, but of Christ therefore no flesh may glory in His presence.

    When the redeemed behold the exquisite beauty of what God has done for us in Christ our only response can be to live for Him. Yet our motivation for serving Him is not like the motivation of the unregenerate. Unlike them, we do not strive to please God out of obligation or terror in order to earn His pleasure – because we already have it in Christ’s perfect imputed merit! Instead we love and serve Him out of a joyful heart filled with gratitude and love for what he has done for us in Christ. We love Him because He first loved us.

    Warren excerpt 3: “Religion without love doesn’t matter.” Fair enough, no objection to this point.

    Warren excerpt 4: “It’s not enough to say I believe, or even that I know my purpose, what matters is how I love God, and how I love other people, that’s the great commandment.” [i.e. in order to "please God"]

    More works righteousness. What matters is what you do for God. He completely inverts the gospel here, as with excerpt 2 above.

    You said: “But in that third video, he does not deny faith in Christ as saving faith – he refutes faith that is dead and has nothing to show for itself; same as James.”

    You’re simply mistaken.

    Warren uses his time, in particular the first 32 seconds, to systematically deny that saving faith alone (Sola Fide) is “enough” to “please God”.

    It takes more, it takes works.

    This specific species of lie is double-cursed by Paul in the book of Galatians. Rick Warren isn’t simply decrying dead faith. If he were I’d happily join him in an amen chorus. Instead he’s commending positive merit from God, i.e. “being pleasing to Him”, based on one’s works. Incidentally this is precisely the soul-damning doctrinal position of Rome.

    In my mind the essence of Rick Warren’s core heresy really doesn’t get any more blatant than the 32 second non-stop full frontal assault on the doctrine of Sola Fide shown in the third video above.

    In Christ,
    CD
18. Manfred says:

    April 29, 2010 at 5:20 am

    CD,

    Thanks for your efforts. I am not standing up for Warren, but faith without works is death. Faith alone – without works of some sort – is not the faith that saves; it’s the faith of demons.

    I see in your transcript the subtle bridge from what the Bible calls dead faith to what Warren teaches in his books – works-based salvation, along with many other errors.

    Again, I think that video is not the best example of his apostasy. But apostate he is.

    May God have mercy on us all.
19. David T says:

    April 29, 2010 at 5:29 am

    Coram ~

    I don’t know if John Piper is a heretic or not, I really don’t know too much about him except through his support for Driscoll. I am just curious if 2 John verses 7-11 could be used against Piper for his inviting Warren to his conference.

    ~ David
20. Coram Deo says:

    April 29, 2010 at 9:42 am

    Faith alone – without works of some sort – is not the faith that saves; it’s the faith of demons.

    I don’t think you really mean this the way you stated it here, Manfred.

    We are justified (saved) by FAITH ALONE. Good works certainly proceed from a regenerated heart due to the supernatural outworking of the inward work of the Spirit in the redeemed heart. Yet faith is the sole instrument by which men are justified before God [saved]. By grace you have been saved, through faith and not of yourselves, it is the gift God [lest any man should boast] (Eph. 2:8-9).

    Justification [salvation] is explicitly NOT of works.

    Clearly, as James teaches, good works are the inevitable result, and evidence, of true saving faith, but works are by no means instrumental in salvation [justification]. Salvation is all of grace.

    In Christ,
    CD
21. Ministry Addict says:

    April 29, 2010 at 10:24 am

    “Although we cannot be saved by works, we also cannot be saved without them.”
    [John Stott, Christ the Controversialist (Downers Grove, IL: IVP, 1970), 127.]

    This, I think, also sums up the view of Piper, MacArthur, and Washer, although they would probably each phrase it differently.
22. DavidW says:

    April 29, 2010 at 10:34 am

    Ministry Addict:

    But what do the Scriptures say: “not of works, lest any man should boast”. Stott presents confusion, since Scripture is clear we are saved totally apart from any of our works.
23. Ministry Addict says:

    April 29, 2010 at 10:40 am

    David W:

    I’m not agreeing with them. I believe the Scriptures. I was just trying to summarize what I believe THEY believe, based on what I’ve read and heard them preach. I believe we are saved by grace through faith and that not of ourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.
24. Denise says:

    April 29, 2010 at 11:14 am

    [Caps are for emphasis only.]

    John Stott is an Anglican who would of course deny justification by faith alone, because Anglicanism is the daughter of Rome–its works based. Stott denies a literal Hell, which means he then denies the Bible, calls Jesus a liar, and denies the holiness and justice of God, as a result.

    Its best to go directly to what Scripture says, otherwise this quickly becomes a competition of who can out-quote another using various pastors. Pastors are not our standard nor test of Truth: Scripture is.

    Salvation is either ALL of grace or not at all. Let me be clear: the FRUIT of salvation AFTER being justified and saved are the RESULT of HIM working in us (therefore HE gets all the credit–see Phil.2:13), but our works are never counted as righteousness on our behalf as Romans 4 so clearly declares repeatedly. Our most righteous works are as bloody rags to the HOLY HOLY HOLY God, Isaiah says.

    Romans 4 and Eph. 2 couldn’t be clearer. Not one work saves. Ever.

    See the thief on the cross as an example.

    There is nothing we bring to God to count as righteous. ALL WE ARE AND HAVE are deathly and hateful toward God. That’s why Romans 4 says God justifies the UNgodly.

    ONE work added to grace means its no longer by GRACE. Its not an option. Works can’t save. James makes it clear that good works that God is pleased with are the RESULT of being saved, thus demonstrating a real salvation. But works is never said to save any person.

    Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY, his FAITH is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God COUNTS RIGHTEOUSNESS APART FROM WORKS

    [We see the fruit of true faith in Abraham's obedience to God, but not before as Romans 4 clearly states as well.]

    Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 NOT A RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast.

    Rom 11:6 But if it is BY GRACE, IT IS NO LONGER ON THE BASIS OF WORKS; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

    2Ti 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, NOT BECAUSE OF OUR WORKS but because of His own purpose and grace, which He gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

    2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

    Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person IS NOT JUSTIFIED BY WORKS of the law but through FAITH in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be JUSTIFIED BY FAITH in Christ and NOT BY WORKS of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

    Eph 2:8 For BY GRACE you have been saved through FAITH . And this is NOT OF YOUR OWN DOING; it is the GIFT of God, 9 NOT A RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

    Gal 3:8 And the Scripture foreseeing that God would JUSTIFY the nations BY FAITH , preached the gospel before to Abraham: “All the nations will be blessed” “in you.”

    Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law OR by hearing with FAITH? 3 Are you so foolish? HAVING BEGUN BY THE SPIRIT, are you now BEING PERFECTED BY THE FLESH?

    Rom 4:5 And to the one WHO DOES NOT WORK BUT trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

    Rom 3:20 For BY WORKS of the law NO HUMAN BEING WILL BE JUSTIFIED IN HIS SIGHT, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

    Rom 3:24 and are JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE AS A GIFT, through the redemption that IS IN Christ Jesus,

    We are HIS workmanship– SAVED AND JUSTIFIED APART FROM WORKS, to THEN do works as HE works us us to “will and to do HIS good pleasure” (Phil. 2:13). But we are fully and totally justified apart from any works.

    Rom 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, much more shall we be saved by Him from the wrath of God.

    Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

    Rom 4:5 And to the one WHO DOES NOT WORK BUT trusts him who JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY, his FAITH is counted as righteousness,

    1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

    Phi 3:3 For we are the real circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus PUT NO CONFIDENCE IN THE FLESH—

    Heb 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a SINGLE SACRIFICE for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God, …..Heb 10:14 For by a SINGLE OFFERING He has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

    _____________________________________________________________

    Btw, Warren denies Justification by faith alone because he denies Total Depravity (see verses below). In his beliefnet interview he said:

    “But going back to this thing about heaven and getting into a perfect place. Let’s say we got a scale of 1 to 100. Let’s put Hitler at zero and Mother Teresa at 100 OK. And Steve you’re at 85 and Larry’s at 65 and I’m at 45. The truth is, some people are better than others, there’s no doubt about it. Some people are more moral than others, they’re nicer, they’re less selfish, less self-centered, things like that. But the truth is, nobody makes [it] to perfection… And so somebody’s got to make up that difference. And that’s the gift I believe Jesus came to – to make up the difference between my zero and my 100 or my 45 and 100 — somebody’s got to make up that difference. ”

    This is entirely contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ! No one makes up the difference. This assumes there’s some good in people, and what, Jesus makes up for our lack? He’s actually using man as the standard….if someone is 10% good, Jesus adds 90%? No! Jesus did NOT come to add to our goodness. This is a denial of the doctrine of Justification which assumes our total sinfulness. Scripture says:

    Rom 3:10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

    Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience–Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

    Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
25. Manfred says:

    April 29, 2010 at 11:23 am

    Denise,

    Excellent! Rick Warren has written lots of “heresy rope” to hang himself with :-)
26. Denise says:

    April 29, 2010 at 11:30 am

    John Stott is an Anglican so his view of Justification is not going to be biblical. He also denies a literal Hell, which is heretical and calls Jesus a liar since HE said its a real place of eternal torment (its eventually thrown into the Lake of Fire for eternal punishment of all who are in it).

    Justification is by faith alone in Christ alone and that is what both MacArthur and Washer proclaim. The FRUIT of salvation is obedience to Christ, but that cannot be done apart from being regenerated by God which is by grace.

    Salvation and justification have nothing to do with works.

    Rom 4:5 And to the one WHO DOES NOT WORK BUT trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

    Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in His sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

    Rom 3:24 and are justified by His grace AS A GIFT, through the redemption that IS IN Christ Jesus,

    For MacArthur’s view: http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sf-solafide.htm
27. Ministry Addict says:

    April 29, 2010 at 11:51 am

    Denise: “Salvation and justification have nothing to do with works.”

    John MacArthur: “The result of salvation is good works.”

    Good works do not save anyone, but if you think that Piper, MacArthur, and Washer teach that salvation has “nothing to do” with works, you are fooling yourself.
28. Darrel says:

    April 29, 2010 at 2:27 pm

    CD
    Piper was invovled in the “Federal Vision” heresy some time back. Don’t know if there was ever repentance or if it was buried and no longer discussed.
    If I was any good at providing links, I would. Maybe a google search would point you in the right direction. There was a similar thread on Slaughter of the Sheep a few weeks ago and a commenter left a link there, perhaps that will help.
29. Brian of the Hill People says:

    April 29, 2010 at 2:54 pm

    I think we all know what Denise meant: Salvation and justification are not born of our works.

    She clearly displayed in her posts that God’s good works in us and through us are the result of real salvation and justification by the gift of faith in Christ Jesus.

    We should all be very clear that when a believer produces good works, it is not the believer, but Christ in the believer, working to will and to do that which the Father predestined we should walk in to His glory and that of His Holy Son, through the power and prodding of the Holy Spirit, according to the Word of God.

    With love and gentleness, I suggest that quoting that one line she wrote, without reference to everything else she wrote, is similar to taking a verse out of context in scripture. More than once, she affirmed a biblical understanding of good works being the result of our Savior’s gracious gift of faith unto salvation.
30. DavidW says:

    April 30, 2010 at 8:46 am

    Coram Deo:

    I appreciate your request for documentation regarding my position on Piper. I already provided that in the DefCon post on “Piper – the slope to heresy” in my Nov. 6, 2009 comment. Rather than cut and paste that to here, I encourage you to read that first.

    In addition, it should be noted that Piper is fully aware of his choice to yoke himself with Warren (and other false teachers, as DefCon has already documented). He is fully aware Christians find this unbiblical (which it surely is, and directly forbidden by God). Not only is he rebellious and unrepentant, but he has defended his stand. He is aware enough of Warren’s teachings to choose to accept or reject them, and has chosen to accept his heretical teachings with a blanket endorsement. Even going so far as to tell the Church that what Warren teaches is biblically sound. In doing so he is in fact promoting error and espousing heresy in giving his full approval and support of it. This is no different than bringing Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Charles Taze Russell, or any other heretic into the Church and assuring his trusting followers that such heretics are biblically sound.

    Scripture is clear that claiming to be a Christian means absolutely NOTHING to Jesus (Matt.7:21). In fact, both their orthodoxy and their orthopraxy meant nothing. Satan’s ministers appear as ministers of righteousness (obviously saying all the right words, even behaving LIKE Christians). The real test is: what is their fruit? If they continually support the enemies of Christ, they display they are NOT of Christ! If they continue to do what God forbids, they are practicing lawlessness and are not of Christ. No matter how many books on Christianity they may write. Piper continually supports and endorses those who bring false Christs, and false gospels. If I were to drive the getaway car, I would be as guilty of robbing the bank as those who actually did the robbing. I would be an active accomplice and would fully share in the punishment for the crime. Thus Piper is as guilty as Warren (and all the other false teachers Piper also endorses) in their spiritual crimes against Christ and His Church.

    So the question is: Based upon what Piper continues to unrepentantly practice, is he truly a follower of Jesus Christ? I mean really, is he? I’m not talking about what he affirms. What is his fruit displaying?

    For those who have not gone back to read my previous documentation in “Piper – the slope to heresy”, Consider the following excerpts:

    “Unless a man be born again into a Christian Hedonist he cannot see the kingdom of God” (Piper, Desiring God, p. 55)

    “Could it be that today the most straightforward biblical command for conversion is not ‘believe in the Lord’ but ‘delight yourself in the Lord?” (Piper, Desiring God, p.55)

    These are flat out denials of what the Scriptures say. The biblical command IS believing on the Lord (Acts 16:31; Rom.10:9). Nowhere does Scripture tell us to “delight ourselves in the Lord” in order to be saved. The two statements are not even close to being equal.

    “The pursuit of joy in God is not optional. It is not an ‘extra’ that a person might grow into after he comes to faith. Until your heart has hit upon this pursuit, your “faith” cannot please God. It is not saving faith” (Piper, Desiring God, p. 69)

    “Not everyone is saved from God’s wrath just because Christ died for sinners. There is a condition we must meet in order to be saved. I want to try to show that the condition…is nothing less than the creation of a Christian Hedonist.” (Piper, Desiring God, p.61)

    Oh, really! There is a condition we must meet to be saved? And that “condition” for salvation is to become one of Piper’s “Christian Hedonists”? Where is that in the Scriptures? Before salvation is possible, one must become a Christian Hedonist? How does that square with Rom. 3:11?

    “Christian Hedonism does not put us above God when it makes the joy of worship it’s goal” (Piper, Desiring God, p.85)

    “The aim of life is to maximize our joy” (Piper, Dangerous Duty of Delight, p.19)

    “I came to see that it is unbiblical and arrogant to try to worship God for any other reason than the pleasure to be had in him” (Piper, Desiring God, p.16)

    There are many more quotes I could give, but I hope these few suffice to show some of Piper’s errors, which directly attack biblical teachings on salvation, worship, and walking in the Spirit. Piper’s whole premise for his Christian Hedonism doctrine is not to live for, or worship Christ solely because He is worthy of all glory, honor and praise. But he teaches rather to live for the PLEASURE we receive in Him, and that the goal of worship is not to give glory to God, but is for OUR joy. And he teaches that it’s arrogant and unbiblical if we don’t! This is all contrary to the Scriptures. He makes pleasure the pursuit (and goes into that at length in his “Desiring God”, but attempts to “sanctify” it by saying that pleasure must be “on God”).

    Piper simply does what so many other Emergents do. He re-defines Scripture to fit his beliefs. In fact his entire belief on Christian Hedonism didn’t even come from the Scriptures as he fully admits, but came from the teachings of other men. In fact, he testifies he wasn’t converted to Christ, but to “Christian Hedonism”! Only after coming up with his theory did he begin “seeing” it in Scripture. A careful reading of his “Desiring God” reveals he alternates between teaching a given amount of orthodoxy, then mixes in teachings that are directly contrary to what God has clearly said, then returns to preaching basic orthodoxy.

    The core teachings of Christianity are the polar opposite of Hedonism. Yet Piper tries to mix and merge the two contrary concepts. Scripture says a lot against this but for brevity I quote only one: “What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures (“hedone”) that wage war in your members” (James 4:1). Hedonism is man’s problem. It cannot be channeled to please God. It must be put to death as part of the old human nature.

    In addition, Piper preaches a doctrine of salvation that relies heavily on the receiver’s participation:

    “”Nevertheless, we must also own up to the fact that our final salvation is made contingent upon the subsequent obedience which comes from faith.” (http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/tulip.html)

    Our “final salvation” contingent on what we do? Where is that in Scripture?

    In Piper’s “Future Grace” (all from p. 248), he says” “Keeping the covenant of God did not mean living perfectly. It meant a life of habitual devotion and trust to the Lord, that turned from evil and followed him in his ways”.

    “All the covenants of God are conditional covenants of grace—both the old covenant and the new covenant. They offer all sufficient future grace for those who keep the covenant”.

    “But what it does mean is that almost all future blessings of the Christian life are conditional on our covenant-keeping” .

    Paul is clear: “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all the things written in the Book of the Law, and do them” (Gal 3:10). If you put your eternal salvation on keeping the law, you must keep EVERY SINGLE ONE! And according to Scripture, that STILL won’t save you! Piper links “covenant-keeping” with Repentance. The two are not the same. Covenant-keeping is strictly “by the law”. Yet Piper attempts to mix law and grace.

    It’s apparent Piper’s is not a case like Peter who was rebuked by Paul for leading by bad example (as in the case of separating himself unto the Jews). If Piper taught sound doctrine, as Peter did, and if he took heed to rebuke and repented of poor example (as Peter did), I would have no problem including him as my brother in Christ who simply made a mistake. But Piper fits neither of those criteria.

    Hope this helps you to understand my position on Piper.
31. Coram Deo says:

    April 30, 2010 at 7:49 pm

    DavidW,

    Yes, you’ve made it crystal clear that you believe John Piper is damned. I admit that I’m not as certain about that conclusion as you are.

    In Christ,
    CD
32. Darrel says:

    May 1, 2010 at 9:51 am

    CD

    As bad as Piper’s “Christian Hedonism” is his endorsement of the Federal Vision heresy is worse. FV states that a person is elect of God at salvation, but in order to retain that salvation good works must be maintained. If the good works are not maintained, salvation can be lost. It does not seem to specific on just what these good works would entail, just that they are necessary for entrance into heaven. Sounds rather Rome-ish, does it not?

    Douglas Wilson has written a book on FV. In it he states that election is granted at baptism and that good works (not specified) are necessary for continued and ultimate salvation. If this does not qualify as rank heresy then what does?

    Douglas Wilson was one of the featured speakers at Piper’s DGC 2009. Piper gave another video “explanation” to those concerned justifying the invitation to a man who is clearly not speaking for God and who does not glorify the Lord Jesus. Wilson is stating that the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus was not enough to satisfy the Father and that we must by our good works continue to try and appease the Father’s wrath.

    Piper is an example of the most insidious form of wolf in sheep’s clothing/angel of light. He has spent years teaching reform theology and building a large church and probably a world-wide following. No doubt most of what he taught was true and now he shows his true colors by introducing these two heresies to his following and most will accept it because their “prophet”, “pastor”, icon preacher has stated it. Are there no Bereans left? I do not know how many other DGC’s have sported heretics. One was enough for me. I hope repentance is in his future.
33. Coram Deo says:

    May 1, 2010 at 2:54 pm

    Darrel,

    Thanks for your comment.

    I’m aware of Doug Wilson’s speaking engagement at Piper’s Desiring God National Conference, but I missed where Piper endorsed FV, could you point me to that endorsement?

    In Christ,
    CD
34. Darrel says:

    May 2, 2010 at 4:34 pm

    Yes, I can.

    Daniel Chew’s sight: puritanreformed.blogspot.com

    Type in federal vision in the sight search engine, upper left of first page.

    Scroll down to the July 4, 2009 entry. Find three videos. The last one is probably the most infomative.
35. Coram Deo says:

    May 2, 2010 at 6:24 pm

    Thanks for the reference, Darrel. As it turns out I had seen that video before (mine was the first comment in Daniel’s thread).

    As I suggested then in Daniel’s combox, Piper’s ongoing patterns of inviting heterodox speakers to his conferences is extremely troubling, but I think it’s a bit of a stretch to make him a proponent of FV based on his profoundly wrong assessment of N.T. Wright and Doug Wilson as touching upon the gospel.

    For the record I believe NPP and FV to be grossly and plainly heretical, and John Piper ought to continue to be called to account for his egregiously erroneous tacit approval of the theology of those men.

    In Christ,
    CD
36. Darrel says:

    May 6, 2010 at 6:54 pm

    CD

    I just read your comments on this subject back in Nov. ’09. Is there a marked change in your position on Piper or am I missing something?

    Concerned.
37. Coram Deo says:

    May 6, 2010 at 9:05 pm

    Darrel,

    I’m not exactly sure what you mean, but insofar as I can recall I’ve never claimed that Piper is damned, or that he’s a blatant heretic, and I think I’ve been consistent on this point. I do, however, have the same deep concerns about his apparent continual slide into pragmatic doctrinal excesses and theological errors today as in the past. I think it’s also self-evident that he’s deemed by many within the broader evangelical church as being somewhat “untouchable” because of his name recognition, and his ability to “put men and ministries on the map” as it were. The allure of fame and filthy lucre is powerful.

    But more recently, at least in the past few threads, I’ve found myself in the odd position of defending a man with whom I have serious theological problems against charges of being a wolf in sheep’s clothing who is guilty of corrupting the doctrine of Sola Fide and purposefully and actively leading souls into perdition by way of teaching “another gospel”. I don’t believe this is the case with John Piper, and since I’m fully persuaded that the Biblical approach to be taken with a brother who’s fallen into the clutches of error and deception is to be markedly different than the approach to be taken towards a false teacher, I find it wholly unreasonable to approach Piper’s situation from the latter position.

    In my opinion Piper needs repentance and restoration, and until such fruit is forthcoming he is to be marked out and avoided as a disobedient brother a la 2 Thess. 3:14-15.

    In Christ,
    CD
38. DavidW says:

    May 7, 2010 at 3:17 pm

    Coram Deo:

    I’m sorry I wasn’t clear about my position on Piper. No, I do not, and cannot judge anyone damned. As long as he is alive, he can repent (just as Saul/Paul did after murdering Christians and wasting the church). But then, so can Warren, Schuller, even the Pope. I just do not see where there is sufficient evidence to say that Piper is my brother in Christ, based upon his false teachings and his fruit.
39. Coram Deo says:

    May 7, 2010 at 5:10 pm

    DavidW,

    I don’t think you’ve been unclear at all.

    Frankly speaking I’d suggest that if there were any lack of clarity about your position on Piper the fact that you’ve placed him on a list with notorious 30+ year veteran apostates like Rick Warren and Robert Schuller, not to mention the man who sits in the very seat of the anti-christ, the Pope, should pretty much remove any lingering doubts that anyone reading your comments might have had up to this point.

    In Christ,
    CD
40. Berean Gal says:

    May 8, 2010 at 4:24 am

    Who will be a faithful “Watchman”?
    No matter what it cost.
41. Manfred says:

    May 8, 2010 at 5:58 am

    Berean Gal,

    We know of only One upon Whom we can completely trust, and He has left us His Word and Spirit – that those chosen by the Father will defend His holy name and proclaim His glorious Gospel, though we be yet sinful and ignorant in many ways.

    The warnings in Scripture are clear – many will be deceived and many will be led astray. This is why we must keep our focus on the Lord Jesus and not on any man.
42. DavidW says:

    May 8, 2010 at 6:17 am

    Coram Deo:

    My point was, and this is the last I will say about it: I do not believe Piper is damned as you have accused me of. I have not placed him on a list of “veteran apostates”. My point was that if Paul could repent and be used mightily by the Lord thereafter, than ANYONE can (including Warren, etc.). Point being again: I do not consider anyone damned as long as they have an ounce of breath to repent. That was the context of what I said (or intended to say).

    I am very disappointed that despite my efforts, I just cannot seem to communicate with you, Coram Deo. Every effort has been met with greater hostility. I have always known I am a poor communicator, and if I have offended you, or any of the DefCon readership with anything I have said, I sincerely apologize. Since you’ve just issued pretty much a blanket warning against me and “my comments”, and have thus thoroughly discredited me publicly, I request you remove ALL my comments from DefCon so that I am not a stumbling block or source of confusion. I certainly do not wish to bring dishonor to my Lord Jesus Christ, or His church in my desire to defend His truth. Perhaps it is best I leave such defense to those more skilled.

    To those more skilled than I, press on defending the faith.

    DavidW
43. Coram Deo says:

    May 8, 2010 at 8:06 am

    DavidW,

    I’ve not felt any hostility towards you in this exchange, nor have I sensed any hostility coming from you. There are two sides to every discussion, and that’s one of the key points of blogging. I don’t have any interest in deleting all your comments from DefCon, and in fact I think it’s helpful for others to read through discussions such as this, because in many cases it can help them sort out and refine their own positions on a matter.

    Here’s our disagreement in its essence, you don’t consider John Piper to be a brother in the Lord, and I do. This is the heart of the matter. Both of us could readily cite scripture and conscience as the grounds of our convictions – and we ought to follow our conscience grounded in scripture, or else for us it’s sin – yet ultimately one of us is wrong about John Piper. With this in mind here’s what I would ask of you:

    1. Pray for me that I’m not being deceived by Piper, and that the Lord would grant me spiritual discernment in this and other areas.
    2. Pray for John Piper and those to whom he is accountable as an under-shepherd of the Lord (even if he’s lost he holds the position of under-shepherd within the visible church)
    3. Pray that the Lord would send Godly counsel into John Piper’s life to convict him of sin and righteousness that he might repent ( he needs this either as an unbeliever unto salvation, or as a believer who has fallen into sin and needs restoration)
    4. Forgive me if I’ve offended you, as it wasn’t my intent

    Please let me know if after reading this comment you still desire to have all your comments deleted from DefCon and I’ll honor your request.

    Peace in Christ,
    CD

    Manfred,

    Amen to your last comment. May we always and everywhere remember that “the best of men are men at best”. All of us as fallen creatures are definitionally fallible and prone to wander into sin, Lord I feel it. Let us continually lift our eyes to Christ, beholding Him as He is revealed in His Holy Word. Our hope is in Him.
44. jude newman says:

    May 8, 2010 at 6:42 pm

    Reading all these comments regarding John Piper I cannot but put my 2 cents worth in. I do not listen to JP, Nothing personal, Ijust cannot take to him. I look at it this way. People have seen the false teachings of RW and his fruits. All of a sudden JP is saying “he’s ok. He believes the same as we do” How much damage is this doing. If he didn’t support MD then biblically MD would have been stood down by now. JP by his associations is doing much damage to the church. His is a sin of claiming to know better than Gods Word bringing false teachers in, then lulling the sheep to sleep. He is disobeying Scripture which tells us to have nothing to do with these false teachers. Then he proudly states ‘I need to be told what is wrong with this.” Apparently he makes a habit of questionable associations. What makes it worse would you support this if he wasn’t so well known. Isn’t this a sin of giving preferential treatment because of who he is. I will not debate with you CD. The church has grown weak because she not only tolerates false teachers but supports them!
45. Coram Deo says:

    May 8, 2010 at 8:50 pm

    Jude said: I will not debate with you CD.

    I’m not now, nor have I ever sought for a debate about John Piper, Jude. In fact for quite some time I’ve publicly called him out and expressed my displeasure over his horribly misguided decisions. A quick blog search for John Piper and a cursory review of the comments should clear up any doubt on this. As I’ve mentioned to other commenters in this thread, I remain steadfast in my belief that Piper should be marked out and avoided a la 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15. I hardly think I take a backseat to being critical of Piper’s ongoing patterns of rebellion against God’s word, but where I seem to differ from some, and evidently fall short of their expectations, is that I’ve not declared him to be a non-Christian.

    And again: Isn’t this a sin of giving preferential treatment because of who he is.

    I don’t believe it’s a sin in violation of James 2:8-9 to grant the benefit of a doubt to a professing believer that he’s a brother in the Lord when he has stumbled and sinned, even grieviously. In fact this course seems more in line with the scriptural admonitions of how to deal with a sinning professing believer within the church than the tactic of insinuating that a brother may be in sin for refusing to throw under the proverbial bus a stumbling, sinning, fellow professing brother who is in need of repentance and restoration. It would, however, be sin for me to eagerly join with others and publicly anathematize Piper in order to gain the approval of men when I’m not persuaded by scripture or conscience that he is an unbeliever.

    The church has grown weak because she not only tolerates false teachers but supports them!

    Amen! And many other causes could be added to that statement, such as “shooting our own”; yet ultimately most true spiritual defection can be traced back to leaving one’s first love.

    In Christ,
    CD
46. Berean Gal says:

    May 9, 2010 at 4:30 am

    jude newman: FINALLY !

    We are known by and judged by the company that we
    keep and endorse!
    Not saying that we cannot go in among those that are
    unsaved or false, but we can love WITHOUT condoning
    or lending credence!
47. Brian of the Hill People says:

    May 9, 2010 at 7:52 am

    I mean this respectfully, but in zeal for righteousness, BUT… for the life of me I cannot see who here is SUPPORTING John Piper, who here is in ASSOCIATION with John Piper, who here is LENDING CREDENCE to John Piper, who here is DEFENDING John Piper, etc.

    I see charges being slung around foolishly without substance. I see only ONE thing irritating some: not ALL of us are so quick to label JP an unbelieivng heretic. All believers can be very wrong without becoming no-believers (unless you hold to works salvation, of course).

    If you cannot point out WHO and HOW someone(s) here is(are) doing the things capatalized in the first paragraph, perhaps you are not prayerfully thinking through your accusations and perhaps it is of no help to the Body of Christ.

    We have a way to deal with brethren who are in open sin or serious error, and it isn’t the same as how ones treats an infidel who hates God. We are to shun that believer until fruits of repentence are apparent for restoration to the Body.

    There is a dread lack of grace and wisdom in the Body when condemnation meets with such zeal. I am appalled at it.
48. DavidW says:

    May 11, 2010 at 10:05 am

    Coram Deo:

    I understand and agree we each have a difference of conviction and have arrived at different conclusions on Piper. I know we cannot both be right in our conclusions. I do pray for you and myself, that we both receive adequate understanding from the Lord. Because we are held accountable either way: If we lend any support or allowance to false brethren, wolves, or false teachers, we are responsible for our part for corrupting the Church or leading others astray. If we trash a true brother, we are responsible for interfering with God’s minister, and God’s work. So we need to be sure, or bear the consequences from the Lord. May the Lord have mercy on us and guide us according to His will.

    Coram Deo, I forgive you of course. I love you as a brother and hold no animosity toward you. But I ask that you take me at my word, and not insist I believe something when I say I don’t. I am not here to manipulate nor deceive, nor win arguments. I simply wish to speak truthfully and be understood. Your last response to me was very helpful. But your previous responses revealed that I was not clear in what I intended to say. And it makes me wonder how many others also mistook my comments. So after clearing up this issue, I will be taking a break to seek the Lord’s guidance in how He wants me to serve Him. And if DefCon determines that any of my comments thus far have caused confusion or have been dishonoring to the Lord, then I ask that they remove those comments at their discretion. If DefCon finds any helpful, then keep them as you see fit.

    I believe there are brothers in varying states of immaturity (where most of us reside), brothers in sin or error (which can be from either rebellion or immaturity), false brethren, wolves, dogs, swine, heretics, apostates. Some must be dealt with similarly, others must be dealt with differently, according to the Scriptures. And so it’s critical we determine who we are dealing with. That’s what I seek to do. And I take it very seriously.

    Brian:

    If I haven’t been clear, I want you to know that I do not condemn Piper as if he were, say, a Voltaire, a Darwin, or an Arius. Nor am I quick to declare him a brother just because he has written many books defining the orthodox Reformed faith. I have no idea what is in his heart, only God does. But his is a case where I believe we must make a stand, and it needs to be the correct one. We are commanded to judge according to fruit. We cannot waffle or compromise. Nor should this be a matter of contention among brethren. As Coram Deo rightly said, we must hold to our conviction before the Lord. I will also be quick to add that we must continue to love as Christ loved: each other, Piper, and all men. Nevertheless, love does not overlook nor excuse error, or we wouldn’t be truly loving the Lord. And in saying that, I do not mean to infer that Coram Deo, nor anyone else here is overlooking error nor excusing Piper. Coram Deo has made it clear he calls Piper to repentance, and is not in agreement with Piper’s actions.

    My stand is a bit different, and it is this: I disagree not just with Piper’s behavior, but also with elements of his teaching. As I’ve tried to document from his own hand, Piper has included within his sound doctrinal teaching, false teaching as well. From what I have read of his own writings, and attempted to share, WITHIN his doctrines on Justification, “Future Grace”, and “Christian Hedonism” there is contained teaching that is seriously contrary to the Scriptures. And these are matters which directly impact basic core beliefs regarding salvation itself. Since these teachings do impact such core doctrines, I don’t know how else I can describe this but heresy. Sorry, I know this can seem harsh, and nobody likes to use the “h” word, because it evokes such harshness, but I believe even Piper has to be held accountable to the Scriptures like every other man (as Paul made clear in Gal.1). I believe Titus 3:10 commands us to reject a heretic after the first and second admonitions (which he has already received from others, yet persists). In addition, there is the bad fruit of his continual endorsement of the enemies of the Gospel (again, whether he is simply deceived, or intentionally doing Satan’s work, only God knows). I also do not condemn Piper nor place him beyond the ability to repent. If he repents, as Paul did, I am confident he can be mightily used by the Lord. But we must make up our minds: is he truly a brother in the Lord, or not? We must not make rash judgments either way on this. Giving the “benefit of the doubt” may be a polite thing to do in social situations, but not on doctrinal matters. Our loyalty must be to Christ and His word alone.

    So this is where I stand. I do not reject those who consider Piper their brother in Christ. That is their conviction. And if I am in error, I welcome someone to show me from the Scriptures. May the Lord show all of us His truth on the matter. And may we yield to His truth.

    I also do apologize if any of this sounded like I was condemning anyone. That is not my heart or intent.
49. cpciv says:

    May 16, 2010 at 7:30 pm

    Paul Washer and Charles. Does this guy have a legitimate case against them? Some of the stuff he posts is correct, but some is craziness…opinions…please..
    
50. Manfred says:

    May 17, 2010 at 4:42 am

    cpiv,

    The poster of that video disqualifies himself with the nasty names he calls some of the tribes of Israel. I can’t warrant spending 6 more minutes watching it. If you want answers, please summarize his argument against Washer (with whom I do not agree on everything).
51. Jeff H says:

    May 17, 2010 at 6:20 am

    cpciv,

    More rubbish.

    You might want to take a break from the ‘interwebs’ for a while. :)

    Or, you can look on this blog… There are some posts in this blog (do a search) that can point you to some godly men who preach and teach biblically.

    Please stop posting these offensive video rants.

    - Jeff H
52. Matthew Johnston says:

    May 17, 2010 at 7:12 pm

    Coram Deo,

    Question: Do you believe John Piper is not born-again?

    Thanks!
53. Coram Deo says:

    May 17, 2010 at 8:39 pm

    Matthew,

    Although I’m not usually accustomed to answering a question with a question…why would you ask me that?

    In Christ,
    CD
54. Matthew Johnston says:

    May 17, 2010 at 9:41 pm

    CD,

    The reason I ask is that it seems you have been vocal regarding John Piper and posing questions/remarks about his salvation or lack there of.

    Thanks!
55. jude newman says:

    May 18, 2010 at 2:20 am

    Great post DavidW and very humbling I also must confess to jumping in with my comment. Coram I ask for your forgiveness for not taking more notice of your posts about your stand on John Piper. I thought you were defending him. My fault. I will take more time in reading the posts before I comment next time.
    David, it didn’t sound like you were condemning anyone to me. Bless you brother. Bless you Coram
56. Coram Deo says:

    May 18, 2010 at 3:38 am

    Matthew,

    Sorry, another question…

    When/where have I been vocal and posing questions/remarks about John Piper’s salvation or lack thereof?

    Jude,

    Thanks for your kind words!

    In Christ,
    CD
57. DavidW says:

    May 18, 2010 at 7:29 am

    Jude:

    Thank you for your kindness. Thank you also for your steadfast defense of God’s truth in the midst of this time of ever increasing apostasy in which we now live. Stand fast. May the Lord richly bless you.
58. Ministry Addict says:

    May 18, 2010 at 9:33 am

    “Beware of False Prophets – Warren, Piper, and the Legitimization of Heresy”

    I don’t recall anyone from Defcon posting that Piper wasn’t saved. I think the implication of the above-titled post is that Piper is a “false prophet,” although the false prophet designation could apply to Warren only, I suppose. In any event, I’m not sure whether Defcon’s position concerning “false teachers” is that they aren’t saved. I know many people feel they are not. Sometimes the titles of the posts seem a little intentionally provocative, but I’m not judging that as a bad or good thing – just pointing it out. Maybe I missed a post where Defcon laid down the Biblical guidelines for whether it’s ever okay to refer to a “false teacher” as “unsaved.” If so, maybe someone could provide a link or reference – I’d like to read it in light of what Scripture says.
59. Matthew Johnston says:

    May 18, 2010 at 2:51 pm

    CD,

    Here is an example:

    “Pray for me that I’m not being deceived by Piper, and that the Lord would grant me spiritual discernment in this and other areas.
    2. Pray for John Piper and those to whom he is accountable as an under-shepherd of the Lord (even if he’s lost he holds the position of under-shepherd within the visible church)
    3. Pray that the Lord would send Godly counsel into John Piper’s life to convict him of sin and righteousness that he might repent ( he needs this either as an unbeliever unto salvation, or as a believer who has fallen into sin and needs restoration)”

    Cheers

    Again, it is a question that requires and answer;

    Do you believe John Piper is not born again?
60. Coram Deo says:

    May 18, 2010 at 3:15 pm

    Matthew,

    If you would go back and re-read that comment in its context within my back and forth exchange with DavidW you would notice that the “doubts” you thought I expressed in my reply to him were actually a juxtaposition of my view that Piper is brother in the Lord with DavidW’s view that he is not.

    Obviously only God knows John Piper’s true spiritual condition.

    Hopefully this will clear up any confusion.

    In Christ,
    CD
61. Matthew Johnston says:

    May 18, 2010 at 4:57 pm

    CD,

    Thank you for your clarification and gracious dealings with me here.

    You said in a reply comment to another person;

    “I don’t believe it’s a sin in violation of James 2:8-9 to grant the benefit of a doubt to a professing believer that he’s a brother in the Lord when he has stumbled and sinned, even grieviously. In fact this course seems more in line with the scriptural admonitions of how to deal with a sinning professing believer within the church than the tactic of insinuating that a brother may be in sin for refusing to throw under the proverbial bus a stumbling, sinning, fellow professing brother who is in need of repentance and restoration. It would, however, be sin for me to eagerly join with others and publicly anathematize Piper in order to gain the approval of men when I’m not persuaded by scripture or conscience that he is an unbeliever.”

    That is mature, non- reactionary, balanced and biblical. Amen.

    Thanks!
62. Coram Deo says:

    May 18, 2010 at 4:58 pm

    Thanks for your thoughts on the subject of the title of my article, Ministry Addict.

    I’m not aware of a post where any DefCon author has laid down Biblical guidelines for whether it’s ever okay to refer to a “false teacher” as “unsaved” either. I don’t believe I’ve done so, but I’ve not read all the DefCon archives, or all the comments by DefCon’s team of contributors either.

    In Christ,
    CD
63. Ministry Addict says:

    May 19, 2010 at 11:35 am

    No problem, CD. Are you aware of whether you meant to call John Piper a false prophet, or was that a reference to Warren? Or just a general warning? Can there be such a thing as a regenerate, born-again, “true Christian” who is also a false prophet?
64. Coram Deo says:

    May 19, 2010 at 4:58 pm

    MA,

    I don’t believe John Piper is a false prophet, and if anyone has gotten that impression from something I’ve written, may the record be set straight.

    With regard to your question as to whether there can be such a thing as a regenerate, born-again, “true Christian” who is also a false prophet, my answer would be an unqualified and emphatic no. I think this ought to be clear enough based on the very meaning of the words “false prophet”, but it might help at this juncture to define what I mean by “false prophet”. First I don’t believe there’s New Testament support for the existence of the ongoing office of “prophet” in the sense of the OT prophets who heralded unmediated, infallible, divinely inspired special revelation directly from the mind of God to the ears of men; i.e. “Thus saith the LORD…”

    That office, I believe, has been perfectly fulfilled by the perfect Prophet, Priest, and King, Christ Jesus the Righteous, the Eternal Son by Whom God has spoken to us in these last days (Heb. 1:2). The office of the New Testament prophet is still to be a herald of God’s Word to be sure, but it is to herald His Word as it has been revealed in sacred scripture, the 66 books of the Holy Bible. In this sense pastor-teachers, speaking elders, evangelists, etc. – those who preach and teach the Word – fill the NT office of “prophet”.

    With this in mind it we find that very clear and strict standards are set forth in scripture for the instruction of those who would proclaim the Word rightly, and grave threatenings are breathed out against those who would proclaim the Word wrongly. By rightly and wrongly the implication, I believe, is (at least) faithfully vs. unfaithfully. This encompasses such an exceedingly broad spectrum that a simple combox statement couldn’t begin to scratch the surface, but having seen you around here as a regular I think you’re equipped to understand my meaning and seek out the relevant scriptures on your own.

    False prophets proclaim the Word unfaithfully.

    Let me also note that by preaching “faithfully vs. unfaithfully” I’m not insinuating that regenerate, born-again, “true Christians” agree on every single point of peripheral doctrine regarding ecclesiology, proper mode of baptism, eschatology, cessationism/continuationism, etc. To take such a position is, I think, to engage in the blindest of partisanship and grossest of sectarianism in violation of a host of admonitions for Christians to live – insofar as possible – peacably with one another in brotherly love, esteeming one another as better than ourselves, turning the other cheek, and living according to the principles of our regenerated conscience so long as they don’t violate scripture a la Romans 14.

    In closing, the DefCon post that perhaps comes closest to addressing your inquiry regarding “false prophets” is a missive by my dear brother The Pilgrim:

    Are we supposed to pray for the wolves?

    I trust you’ll find his piece both thought provoking and helpful.

    In Christ,
    CD
65. Ministry Addict says:

    May 21, 2010 at 8:17 am

    I have read the article about whether or not we are supposed to pray for the wolves, and I admit it was provoking and somewhat helpful. It was also a little discouraging – in that, I think it suggests that we should NOT pray for the wolves, when the Bible makes it clear that we are to pray even for our enemies and Christ’s enemies. Again, I don’t think the post itself was actually MEANT to discourage prayer for the lost or even for false teachers. I think the point of that post is to discourage or condemn squishy, sentimental, truthless fellowship with false teachers. Certainly true Christians out to mark and avoid wolves. But, again, the provocative title is misleading – in my opinion. There’s a difference between praying-for-while-actively-opposing, marking, and avoiding on the one hand, and any of the following on the other hand: fellowshipping-with, approving-of, silently-allowing. We ought to pray for the conviction, conversion, repentance, and correction of false teachers, even as we call upon the Lord to put an end to their evil-speaking.

    I’m not playing the “judge-not” card of the Emergents by any means. But I am trying to remind some of us that God knows His elect for certain even while they are yet unregenerate, but we do not. Even Saul of Tarsus was a false teacher, in a sense, before the Damascus Road.
66. K-Nine says:

    September 21, 2010 at 11:43 am

    It must strike us with sobering seriousness when the apostle James states in James 3:1,2a “My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgement. For we all stumble in many things…” Things to note

    1: teachers of the word shall be judged more strictly
    2: we should not all aspire to occupy the office of teaching the Word. why?
    3: the word “for” links what comes after it to verse 1, that is, we all stumble in MANY things
    4: by saying “we all”, James puts even the apostles in the bracket. Note that this does not mean that Scripture has error, for it is inspired by God and is both coherent and perfect. However, the lives of the apostles were not perfect. No wonder Paul cries out in Romans 7, “O wretched man that I am!”

    What does this mean for us in this situation? I believe that Rick Warren is a heretic. However, I have been (and am) edified by Pastor John Piper’s ministry (and allow me to mention that I am all the way in Kenya). Even though His announcement of Rick Warren’s invitation surprised me, my knowledge of God’s word and even the very confessions of Piper in almost all his opening prayers before sermons, I know that no man is perfect nor adequate. We have to acknowledge that even prominent men of God err. Peter, the rock, was valiant, but He denied Christ. Did Christ trash him? No! He said, “when you have returned to me, strengthen your brethren”. Oh how we drink judgement upon ourselves by brazenly speaking evil of dignitaries! (2 Peter 2:9-11). Did Peter remain perfect after his restoration? No! Paul openly corrected him and Barnabas in Galatians 2 FOR THE SAKE OF THE GOSPEL!! Did that disqualify Peter as an apostle? No! Did his ministry continue… YES!

    John Piper is a man of God. I love him, though not nearly as much as I love Christ. I may not even be in the US, but as Christ our Lord said, I know Piper by his fruits. Who shall bring a charge against the elect? If we are what we claim we are in Christ, and if we are truly after the truth, then let the motive of our words be the restoration of a faithful man and not his damnation and complete disqualification. By our words we will be justified, and by our words we will be condemned. Therefore, you are inexcusable, o man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you judge yourself.

    Let love abound, and let us seek to edify and correct one another in love instead of the body looking like the hand is gouging the eye out.

    Grace and peace to you all.
67. Coram Deo says:

    September 22, 2010 at 8:44 pm

    K-Nine,

    Thanks for stopping by. Could you tell me specifically what you found “unloving” about this post that looks “like the hand is gouging the eye out”?

    Also are you suggesting that some Christians are above correction and rebuke? I’m a little confused by your comment about “speaking evil of dignitaries”, and “bringing a charge against the elect”. Who are you referring to? Was Paul improperly speaking evil of a dignitary, bringing a charge against God’s elect, and being unloving by rebuking Peter in the example you provided?

    How does your comment here line up with your own standards of “judging”?

    In Christ,
    CD
68. K-Nine says:

    September 23, 2010 at 8:13 am

    Coram,

    Thanks for being so gracious in your response.

    I commented in light of the attitude that distinctly permeates comments not only on this post, but many of the Christian “sentry” web sites I have visited.

    I have read most of your responses, and I am grateful for you. However, when people are hasty to call Piper a pulpit pimp, my heart breaks. Someone even seemed to suggest that Whitfield was an unbeliever! When I said “who shall bring a charge against the elect”, I was referring to the readers of informative posts such as this who by default are ready to “write off” lifetime ministries of men of God at the slightest hint of their slipping. I believe that all men should be corrected, that’s why I referenced Paul and Peter’s Scriptural incidence. My reproach was to the commenters who are evidently “gouging the eye out”.

    Coram, remember how Jesus said we would be known to be His disciples? The single factor He said would be the evidence to the world that we are His followers? Love for one another. Try finding that in “Christian” blogs.

    Perhaps I should quote one more example to illustrate this. When the Pharisees brought the adulterous woman to Jesus, the Scriptures state that they “condemned her”. They just wanted Jesus to seal the deal. Jesus then bent down and ignored them as the Holy SPirit convicted them of their own sin till they all left. When He got up, He didn’t just tell her she was free. He said “Go and sin no more”. That’s what we ought to do if we are His followers. We are not perfect, but in repentance and by faith we have His righteousness. Therefore we can admonish others to “sin no more” (as you have done while signing off the post), and He doesn’t consider that judging. But when we have come with stones in our hands, we are the unregenerate pharisaical ones we claim others to be.

    Grace and peace.
69. DavidW says:

    October 11, 2010 at 2:16 pm

    K-Nine,

    I don’t see where anyone here is out to “gouge” Piper’s “eyes out”. Nor do I see anyone here intent on writing off men of God at the “slightest hint of their slipping”. That would certainly be unfair. We are all susceptible to err. But the righteous man repents when he is rebuked. What we have been seeing in Piper is a long and continuous slide away from sound biblical practice. He has been repeatedly and publicly warned of his errors, and rebuked for his sins. He has been repeatedly called to repentance. And he continues to remain unrepentant. His past ministries do not offset his present iniquity. He must be dealt with according to his current state of rebellion.

    Take for instance his latest interview with Christianity Today (http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2010/octoberweb-only/50-11.0.html?start=1) in which he was questioned about his position of inviting Rick Warren to his recent Desiring God conference. After all the rebukes, after all the uproar over his wrongful behavior of endorsing Warren, Piper continues in open rebellion against the clear command in God’s word NOT to yoke with unbelievers, insisting that Warren “is biblical” (despite the clear, overwhelming evidence to the contrary), and that Warren “has been slandered” (by those who have exposed his anti-biblical teachings). Thus Piper not only remains unrepentant, not only persists in endorsing a heretic, but is now falsely accusing those who expose Warren as slanderers. He has gone from bad to worse. And so he continues.

    I must disagree with your analogy regarding Jesus’ handling of the adulterous woman, since it fails on several counts to accurately address the Piper issue. 1) Though we must certainly forgive those who sin against us, Jesus alone can forgive sins against God. In Piper’s case, he is living in open rebellion to God’s word, thus in sin against Him, not us. 2) Though Jesus forgave that woman, He was not showing partiality, nor leniency to His own law. She was not lawfully condemned. According to Old Testament Law (still in effect at the time), there must be 2 or more witnesses (which there weren’t), and the man of the act must also be put to death (who was absent). Thus, they brought her to Him unlawfully. Even still, she was commanded to “go and sin no more”. This was not an example for us to simply ignore God’s commands out of pity for the individual.

    We are commanded to uphold God’s word. We are commanded to put away from us those who claim to be Christians yet walk disorderly (1 Cor.5). We are commanded to mark those who bring division by bringing in teaching which is contrary to the Faith and avoid them (Rom. 16:17). This is not Phariseeism, but obedience. We are not loving God by disobeying His commands, nor loving Piper to ignore his wickedness. In giving him a break because of “who he is”, we are allowing him to lead others astray. That is not loving the body of Christ.
70. rkg says:

    November 2, 2010 at 5:24 pm

    Piper asks what we do when a brother does sinful things that we don’t do and what we use to separate ourselves from them? And he teaches the Bible?

    Is he serious?

    BTW, I never have listened to him preach, nor have I read any of his books.

    What does the Bible say about disorderly brothers and our duty toward them?

    Unreal.

    I think spirituality is being replaced with intellectualism. And a smug attitude to boot.

    Where is holiness and accountability?
71. revivalandreformation says:

    November 2, 2010 at 8:34 pm

    You are so right, rkg. The days of accountability are long gone and have been replaced with circular reasoning, circumstantial ethics and a spirit of love and tolerance. What would a Spurgeon, Edwards, or Ravenhill do if they saw two men necking each other in their church? Of course they would defend their freedom through their christianity, but make no mistake about it, they would be hurled out of there in a quick hurry. God hasn’t changed, and His law is still blameless and pure and He cannot tolerate sin. Piper, Warren and the others are just playing a game of Russian Roulette, and eventually they will get to the bullet, and that bullet has God’s judgment and wrath written all over it.
72. DavidW says:

    March 2, 2011 at 5:05 pm

    Add Tony Blair to Warren’s team, (whom Piper has vigorously endorsed and promoted):

    http://www.crosstalkblog.com/2011/03/saddleback-unveils-blair-peace-program/

    Ingrid Schluter has this to say of Piper:

    “The followers of John Piper are in deep denial. They believe that because Piper has never written or spoken anything heterodox, that he must be trustworthy for all time. That is why I wrote my piece on evangelical Bridgers. These are the most dangerous men of all. Blinded by pride and their own sense of importance in the scheme of things, (and ironically, often claiming newfound humility), they end up bridging the gap between false teachers like Rick Warren and biblical Christianity. John Piper has chosen to become a Bridger. My prayers are with those who will blindly cross that bridge while loyally carrying their Piper banners all the way.”

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