and there are MANY verses in the Bible that confirms that HELL IS REAL.. thats not a “PARABLE”..

Your questions reveal several interrelated concepts. I think a return to some basics would be helpful. Please bear with me as I explain.

In order to build upon the same foundation, we need to clearly identify, and agree upon, that one foundation. As our teaching about Jesus must be true to the Scriptures, so does our representation of Him if we claim to be followers of Jesus Christ. Thus, if we proclaim MOSTLY biblically-true things about Jesus, and also preach something which is not true of Him, we have just preached “another Jesus”. If we claim to represent HIm, yet in His name, practice what is contrary to the Scriptures, we are misrepresenting Him, and thus proclaiming to the world another Jesus.

Let me illustrate what I mean here so there’s no misunderstanding. We all have human failures, we are not sinless due to our fallen nature. But if we PRACTICE sin, or practice what is contrary to the Scriptures (foul language, getting high, joining in prayer/fellowship with those of unscriptural beliefs, worldly/fleshly behavior, etc.), and yet say we are representatives of Christ (“Christians”), we are thus lying about Christ to the world by our lives, and thus presenting “another Jesus”. Those who are truly of Christ first have a right understanding of Who the biblical Jesus is. Then they bear the fruit of living in accord with the Scriptures, are yielded to the Spirit, have crucified the flesh with it’s passions and lusts, and preach the true Jesus of the Scriptures. Merely believing in Jesus, even doing many good works in His name, yet practicing what is contrary to His Word, invalidates our claim as Christians (Matt. 7:21-23).

A Christian is one who is a part of Christ’s body, the church. The Greek word for “church” is ekklesia, meaning “called-out ones”, that is, called out of the world. He is to be holy, for God is holy (1 Pet.1:16). “Holy” from the Greek “hagios” meaning unlike the world, but like God. The Christian is not to be conformed to this world, but transformed (Rom.12:2).

So, in light of the above, how does the Christian, holy and separated unto God, called out of the world, transformed and no longer like the world as he was before, reach out to the unsaved world with the Good News? Do we become again like them to reach them? No, then we would be unfaithful to Christ and cease to be Christians in the biblical sense. Do we isolate ourselves away from the unsaved world? No, then we would not be fulfilling our commission. On the contrary, we go as missionaries, as representatives of Christ, to the unsaved world around us. We SHOW them transformed lives by the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling within, and we PREACH to them the uncompromised Gospel truth as given in God’s Word.

Regarding your question:

“I’m confused by the “Mark Driscoll Jesus” from above. I’ll admit, right off the bat, that I’m not familiar with his early ministry/methods, but in some of the messages I’ve recently heard from him, he seems very solid in his doctrine and appropriately practical in his application (at least in speech)–I don’t see any of the elements listed above as part of what he’s communicating. Is the description from above from earlier in his ministry?”

Sounds like you’re not very familiar with Mark Driscoll and his tricks. The same “jesus” Driscoll refers to as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and Savior of mankind that he may refer to in one sermon, he turns right around and defames by referring to Him as a joker who goes around “telling knock knock jokes” to miscreants who love His sense of humor, that He was a party-goer (from his book “The Radical Reformission”). Or that He “needs Paxil”, “needs sensitivity training”, is “cruel” (from his “Vintage Jesus”), and elsewhere describes Jesus as basically a fleshly, worldly degenerate. This “jesus” of Driscoll is certainly not the All-Holy, All-Pure Jesus, God the Son, Who is altogether sinless and without fault.

The “Driscoll’s jesus” described in Pilgrim’s original post above is accurate based upon a summary of his sermons and books, to which Driscoll has never repented.

When we take all of the warnings recorded in the word of God about false Christs and their teachers we get a lot better picture of our day and age. Someone openly preach a different jesus and gospel such as mormons. Others the line is blurred, becuase they use the same words we do, but they have different meanings. The word of God says we know them by their fruit / actions.

Tit 1:14 not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth.
Tit 1:15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.
Tit 1:16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

Luk 6:43 “For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit,
Luk 6:44 for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush.
Luk 6:45 The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.
Luk 6:46 “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

If Driscoll were just some grunge teenager that was saved off the streets we could bare with him as a young brother that needs to be sanctified and mature in the faith. As it is though he has brought this condemnation on himself by becoming a teacher and refusing to repent of his crude gimmicks and impure conduct. What must his idea of Jesus be – certainly not what the apostles recorded. You will know them by their fruit.

Eph 5:1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children.
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
Eph 5:3 But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints.
Eph 5:4 Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.
Eph 5:5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Eph 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

In Christ -Jim

Also–is it possible that some of the descriptions of different “Jesuses” (sp?) above (not including the cults and/or the extremes listed in some of the other categories) are simply strategies people have used to tell the world? For example, are youth pastors’ strategies or pop Christian musicians really portraying an entirely different Jesus or are they, as I Cor. 3:11-15 suggests, building with a variety of materials which will, on day, be tested by fire? A different Jesus and a misguided strategy are a far cry from one another. According to the key scriptures throughout the book of Acts, we find a constant reflection/update on results: was the church growing? Following this example, if music is leading to results of some kind–discipleship, for example–because of the way it’s presented to people who otherwise might not have heard, isn’t that a type of building material? Isn’t the foundation still Jesus Christ–the Jesus of the Bible? There is no indication that a divergent, sinful lifestyle be adopted–which I would imagine a different Jesus would offer me.

I do understand that the best deceptions come equipped with much truth, so perhaps I am missing something in my analysis of these things. Coming from a Word of Faith background, I see some value in the “emotional” aspect of Christianity. After all, we are present within this human condition and there is a flame to fan. However, I also see much twisting of Scripture used eisegetically to almost excuse any lifestyle or “pursuit of happiness” since “new creations” can’t possibly want or think anything contrary to God (oh wait–how does that Lord’s Prayer go again…?). On the other hand, many of the more conservative, fundamentalist churches go to a similar extreme wherein they sing the praises of assurance without regard to such Scriptures which warn of testing ourselves to be sure we’re in the faith, or he who stands firm to the end shall be saved or go and sin no more (in reference to known, lifestyle-sin).

I wouldn’t contend that these are different Jesus’s (sp?–I keep trying)–well, the Word of Faith Jesus, maybe–more than they are, perhaps over-emphasizing one aspect over another and if either does not allow for a balanced emphasis on teaching all aspects of Christ, the Gospel, etc., then perhaps it is a new Jesus they’ve invented for themselves. There are many tensions throughout Scripture, and there is such a fine balance between understandings, and human tendency seems to be to get caught up in our lust for extremes–it’s easy to feel that we’re in a tangled mess of semantics and emphases within the bounds of the church!

In Acts we see a balance (again, right?!) of careful, strategic planning and of the Spirit’s guidance/promptings. It’s not totally logical, and it’s not totally Spirit-obvious, and yet the Spirit is constantly at work in thinking apostles/believers. The church today is a body made up of many different parts. And we know that there are wheat and tares planted throughout. I guess what I’m asking is, exegetically speaking, how are we to interact with the world–how to we reach out to unbelievers? Is it appropriate to do it through pop music? Through a “seeker-friendly” service? Through a youth group retreat? Through public/private schooling? Through pushy Bible-thumping? Through living a life separated from unbelievers? Through websites? Through “Christian” books? And if there is an over- or under-emphasis on a presentation within the bounds of any of these avenues, does that make the whole thing an invented Jesus? Is there room for human error so long as personal study is held in high esteem through the individual priesthood of the believer? Are we all building on the same foundation–Jesus Christ–though building with various materials which will one day be tested by fire? Or are some strategies/emphases incarnating the antichrist? Is there anyone who can answer all my ridiculous and never-ending questions?! :-) Thanks ahead of time…

btw…thanks @fleebabylon for the references–helpful in my ponderings!

2Co 11:3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
2Co 11:4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.
2Co 11:5 Indeed, I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles.
…
2Co 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

It used to be (for the most part), we “tested” whether one was a fellow believer, a fellow follower of Christ, by their doctrinal stand, and their behavior. We’ve become well aware of the obvious, glaring errors of cults and false “Christian” churches (as defined above).

But more and more, we’re seeing those who proclaim 1) a rock-solid doctrinal statement (complete with a very orthodox view of the Trinity, and the deity of Christ), 2) a sound basic soteriology, 3) every detail of eternal security minutely dissected and affirmed, 4) affirmation of the 5 Solas, in essence, all the right doctrine proclaimed.

Yet, we’re seeing “another jesus” being put on the Cross, and placed at the right hand of the Father. When described, this “jesus” is not the Jesus of the Scriptures. His character is different, His righteousness has been altered, His holiness has been diminished, he is slacker in who or what he approves of, the gospel has been re-defined with his approval. Identity theft of the only Savior, the only Way, Truth, and Life has taken place, so that an impostor has been put in place of the true, Biblical Christ, and all the sound doctrine of Scripture transfered to him. Thus, we can no longer go merely by doctrinal affirmations, but must clearly and accurately identify the Christ we are talking about. Whatever else we may affirm from Scripture, if it is not the Christ that is identified in the whole of the Bible that we are following and believing in, then all our doctrinal correctness is merely academic.

You asked,

The only thing I don’t understand is (according to this site) what is wrong with Benny Hinn, Robert Schuller, Rick Warren, and Joel Olsteen?

Here are some links to get you started.
SCHULLER:
http://defendingcontending.com/2009/08/30/a-glimpse-into-the-theology-of-the-man-mark-driscoll-calls-brother/

HINN:
http://defendingcontending.com/2008/04/17/benny-hinns-false-prophecies/

WARREN:
http://defendingcontending.com/2010/04/08/beware-of-false-prophets-warren-piper-and-the-legitimization-of-heresy/

- Pilgrim

The only thing I don’t understand is (according to this site) what is wrong with Benny Hinn, Robert Schuller, Rick Warren, and Joel Olsteen? All these people are Godly ministers (though not perfect) they are serving the Lord, winning people to Christ and training people for ministry.

You say ‘Purpose Driven Life’ is a book teaching how ‘to earn your salvation.’ But I disagree. I read most of it and it is about ‘living a life of purpose because of your salvation,’ such as bearing fruit.

As for the ‘Charismatic Word of Faith’ movement, I do agree that the prosperity message has been overdone and manipulated at times. But people are realizing that and becoming more sound in their teachings. Every one of us would be lying if we said we did not want to be healthy and prosperous. But we should also be content if we have to do without.
About the Holy Spirit, people do not ‘get slain in the Spirit or speak in tongues’ as a result of their salvation -confirming it. But these things are a manifestation of the anointing of the Holy Spirit. If we walk in holiness, worship the Lord and come into His presence, we will experience these things, such as the prophetic.

Blessings to all in the name of JESUS CHRIST – OUR SAVIOR.

Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Jud 1:25 To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
___________________________________________________________________________________

Oh and to make it clear, when was I saved about 2000 years ago when my Lord made intersesion for me before a righteous and holy God who has given all power and domain to the Christ to judge this world with righteousness. Repent!
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshiped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

OK, that made absolutely no sense, and I have no idea what Martin Luther had to do with anything we’re talking about–so let’s skip that.

2. Out of control, and flailing around with no foundation. (flaky)

This seems to be your approach. The way you keep “flailing around” with your statements would indicate you have no foundation. I’m really trying to understand you, but there doesn’t seem to be any cohesiveness in your comments.

Plus, how can you say that encouraging people to turn away from sin is “legalistic”? That is a command we find all through the New Testament.

I don’t think I can converse with you any longer, because I can’t make heads or tails of what you are saying. I’ve asked you to be clearer, but your statements have only gotten more muddled. Farewell.

I would agree with your #3, with some clarifications. Level headed and preach repentance: agreed. Restoring God’s honor: agreed. In fact, standing in defense of God’s word, His revealed truth, His character, His person, is what this site is all about. Worship (the Lord God Almighty) with all your strength: agreed. Yielding to God’s Spirit: agreed. Letting the Holy Spirit be in control: agreed.

This is not hard to comprehend. As for the pastor, he may not say it “just right” to every hearer. But he must be biblically sound in what he does say. He needs to be pleasing to God in his behavior (as required by God in His word). He needs to be qualified, again according to the Scriptures.

But this is all getting away from the topic of this post, which is: which Jesus do you worship?

Todd Bently? ah No. sorry nice try.

Being exclusive to one translation which I am not, is not the best. Just reading a translation from a Jew hater might need to be researched a little further than how is reads off the King James Version. Make sure its God’s word not Martin Luther’s word. But obviously we have to start somewhere.

It seems as though there are two options here.

1. Level headed and preach repentence. (necessary)

2. Out of control, and flailing around with no foundation. (flakey)

But what about,

3. Level headed and preach repentence, with restoring God’s honour, worshiping with all your strength. Which might mean using your body, not just your mind (cause I know God know’s the thoughts and hearts of man). And yeilding to God’s Spirit, letting Him control the service not man. (regardless of denomination)

I know this will be hard to comprehend, I probably don’t expalain it the best, but it does work. With a God fearing humble Pastor who is not controled by a mob of legalistic Christians ready fire Him if he doesn’t say it just right. It does work.

One without the other is incomplete.

What you are saying sounds very familiar to how I once thought when I was a young Christian in a Charismatic fellowship. “All those dead religious Christian Pharisees are missing out on the power God wants to empower them with. If only they would seek His power, rather than focusing on being dead to sin all the time. Why are they so “afraid” of that Holy Ghost fire?” (I once thought)

As the Lord put me through years of hardship, and I had only Him and His word to lean upon to survive, my attitude and understanding gradually changed. I began to see that repentance is a lifestyle. It is a prerequisite to having that relationship with God in which God could use me in His service to do His will. My will had to be broken before He could even use me, let alone empower me.

You speak of a “new move of the Spirit”. I was told that, too. A lot. But apart from Pentecost, I don’t see any focus on that in God’s word. What I do see, as I found to be true in real world Christianity, that the spirit wars against the flesh (daily), and the flesh wars against the spirit (daily), and the two are contrary to each other (Rom. 7, Gal.5). Which is why Jesus said any who desire to come after Him must deny themselves, take up their cross, and follow Him DAILY (Luke 9:23). So, in order to be that vessel usable to God, we are commanded to DAILY deny our flesh and follow Him. Thus repentance is a daily behavior. It is not an accounting system where sins are debits and “good works” are credits. Repentance is putting to death the old human nature itself (“the flesh”), which is what drives us to sin against God. Submission to His will is a daily behavior. As the child of God does so, he is used when, where, and how the Lord will use him.

Seeking after power, even spiritual power, is but another manifestation of the flesh. When power is what we want, when power is what we desire, it should tip us off that our focus is on ourselves. Our focus must be to seek to live in obedience to His word, to be mere vessels for His use. Whether we are vessels of “honor” or mundane, utility vessels, doesn’t matter. It’s however He wants to use us.

I am not afraid of God’s fire, or His power, flowing through me. But I do know that my own will, (with its pride, arrogance, and foolishness) will merit me disciplinary action from a loving Father, Who will use His unlimited power to chastise and humble me. I never forget what happened to Nebuchadnezzar, and so many others who forgot just Who God Almighty is.

The power of God is a changed life, not flashy demonstrations. A life transformed from arrogance, self-will, power-focus, personal benefit focus, fleshly, worldly, looking-out-for-number-one, hedonistic, proud, sensual driven existence,….to a life of humble submission to God’s will, is the most miraculous, and most powerful thing imaginable. Because, apart from God’s miraculous power, such transformation is impossible.

Tim, I encourage you to also chuck your “Message Bible”. It is a cheap, ego-feeding, ear-tickling, perversion of God’s holy word that will not provide you with the spiritual nourishment you will need to grow in Christ. Get an NASB, NKJV or some other more accurate translation.

Tim, be careful that you are not led to follow a different Spirit, a different Gospel, or a different Jesus, than what is defined in God’s Word.

-Hebrews 12:28-29

Any “new move” that promotes a lack of fear of God, and that says that believers can get “fired up” about God without reverence and Godly is fear, is not really a “move of God.”

You really need to make up your mind. Are we supposed to stop sinning–or not? Here are two of your quotes [all emphases mine]:

There is more to it than repentance of sins. Ok your saved now what? Just keep repenting for your sins over and over, make sure to stay clean? Sounds pretty stuck on John to me.

Then you go on to say:

Indulging in lusts! Certainly not, if you accept this new fire, there is no need for sin consciousness. The desire for sin fades away, there is no struggle to do the right thing anymore because of the fire inside.

So, what do we do? Do we say, “I don’t need to turn away from my sins”? Or do we say, “I need to turn away from my sins”?

An even more important question–what do YOU consider to be sin? And are we supposed to stop sinning? And what the heck is this “new fire” you keep talking about? It’s funny, in the first comment you posted you said,

I’m willing to bet this article, as good as it is, was written by a Pentecostal.

And yet your more recent comments make you sound like some ultra-hyper-charismatic who can’t seem to stop talking about this “fire” (whatever the heck that’s supposed to be). What IS this “fire” you keep talking about? The one that we’re supposedly so “afraid” of? Is it some kind of Todd Bentley thing? If it is, then I can see why you’re so confused about what to believe. I don’t think that man has seen the inside of a Bible in years.

It is NOT some “fire” that “cleanses us.” It is the Holy Spirit who convicts us of sin (John 16:8-11).

No, your friend should not continue his old life, I didn’t. I also come from a very rough lifestyle. My point is that after repentence there is more to being a believer than to make sure everyone has all thier sins checked off.

As for the new move of God, it seems you know something about it. Indulging in lusts! Certainly not, if you accept this new fire, there is no need for sin conscousness. The desire for sin fades away, there is no struggle to do the right thing anymore because of the fire inside. Falling into a religious rut and resisting a new move of the Spirit of God is no different than when Jesus was rejected and killed by religious leaders, its no different today.

Obviously I have to defend myself here but the reference to the message bible just gives a different wording, thought it might help.

John baptized with water.
Jesus baptized with fire.

…is that hell fire He used to baptize with?

You could easily have a great water service, but could you put on a fire service. It’s funny, you people are so afraid of the fire, yes you should seek after it. God loves fire, its in his eyes.

Don’t stop at John, of course that’s the popular, cleaner gospel. Go for the fire if your not too scared.

Oh, I get it. So we don’t have to stop sinning. We don’t even have to change how we think about sin. We can keep on indulging in our fleshly lusts, going on like lost sinners–and the only repentance we need is to “accept this new move of God.” So, you would tell the guy I mentioned before–who got rid of his guns and stopped selling drugs–you would tell him, “Hey, it’s all good. You can keep selling drugs and sleeping around. Just accept this new fire from God.” Does that sound about right? Because that’s what your words indicate.

However…..

(I know. More of that darned ol’ Scripture to interfere with your opinion).

–1st John 2:1–My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin.
–Romans 6:12-13–Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
–James 1:15–Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
–Romans 6:14-16–For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
–1st Corinthians 15:34–Awake to righteousness, and do not sin.
–1st John 3:6-8–Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning.

I could go on, but I think you get the point.

Now, what’s this about us not having to stop sinning? I guess the apostle Paul and the other writers of Scripture were still “hung up on John” and hadn’t yet “accepted this new move of God.”

Tim, you really need to put down “The Message” and pick up a real Bible. “The Message” is not a translation–it is Eugene Peterson’s attempt to mushify and squishify the Scriptures.

The false fire of the experiential groups is simply one of many ways man tries to replace God with works.

Mat3:7-10 fire is judgment
Mat3:12 fire is judgment

keeping the context going “fire” in Mat3:11 is judgment. John is also speeking to a mixed audience. There are believers and the non believers. The believers will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. The unbelievers will be baptized with fire.

Tim has a MSG “Bible”.

That explains his confused theology.