But Joel sounds so winsome! We are 7 weeks into Romans in my church. We cleared chapter 1:26-27, entitled “The Descent of Man, Part 3″. Can’t find any part of Joel’s theology in chapter 1 of Romans. That stuff Washer is talking about – easy to spot.
One of these men is telling the Truth. One of them isn’t – that makes him a liar.
“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Matthew 7:22-23
I’m not supporting Osteen because I’m only slightly familiar with him. And I’ve never heard of Washer. Here are some thoughts, based on 40 years of Scripture study and my own experience with pastors:
Jesus knows our thoughts and loves us unconditionally. If my thoughts were made public, I’d only be horrified to the extent that I have a fear of man. But, praise God, perfect love casts out fear.
Why is it “prophets” almost always focus on the Old Testament? It is the GOODNESS OF GOD that leads to repentance.
Speakers like Washer beat Christians over the head with their sin, yelling at them to REPENT! STOP DOING THAT!! Well, that’s great if all I want is behavior modification so I look good to others. But God doesn’t look at us like man does.
I’ve worked with hundreds of chaplains/pastors over the decades and found that the ones who focus on God’s wrath and man’s evil have deep, deep sins they are trying to compensate for. They have not clue what the victorious life is all about. If they truly had a relationship with God, and had a revelation of God’s unfathomable love, they would quit focusing on their sin and start focusing on their Creator, and their sin would disappear along with their fear of an angry God.
Where in the NT are Christians identified as “sinners”? We are SAINTS! Until we grasp that, people like Washer will continue to keep people bound in Satan’s lies. Sin isn’t the issue – - a relationship with God is.
Bottom line: the difference between these two is one focuses on God’s love, the other focuses on God’s wrath. We’re evil, God is angry… THAT IS GOOD NEWS?
Gotta add a bit more:
God says “For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.” (Jer 29:11)
If you look through the OT, THESE are the thoughts God has for His people. He prepared a promised land for them. He loves them with an eternal love. He sent His son to DIE for us “WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS” (i.e., when we accept him, sin is no longer an issue.)
If Jesus said “IT IS FINISHED,” what was he referring to?
I highly recommend you familiarize yourself with Osteen’s false gospel, then you will understand more clearly Washer’s words. I also recommend John MacArthur’s rebuke of Osteen and his exposing Osteen’s ‘feel good’ gospel here – http://youtu.be/jDuDN2FtrIo
As for your accusation against Washer’s constant hammering on sin, again please familiarize yourself with his ministry {http://www.hcmissions.org/} before you come to a final ‘verdict’ that Paul Washer is a man who does not preach the love of God. You could not be more wrong. Please watch this video as well – http://youtu.be/sIV-KseO_1E – then tell me Washer doesn’t know love.
Thanks for responding. However, the “Joel Osteen vs. Paul Washer” audio above is what has been presented as a juxtaposition of messages. Again, I’m not interested in digging more deeply into either individual’s teaching at this time. I found this site because I had seen an interview with Osteen (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/blaze-exclusive-joel-osteen-tackles-sin-his-rise-to-fame-being-saved-what-it-takes-to-get-into-heaven/) and just wanted to know about how he’s raising his children. My Google search terms didn’t find what I wanted, but did lead me here.
The ONLY way I could agree that Washer’s message is correct and Osteen’s message is wrong (in this audio clip) would be if BOTH were speaking to unregenerate humans. In that case, yes, Osteen would be preaching a “feel good” Gospel, and Washer is showing man his sinful nature in the eyes of God, which is sometimes (SOMETIMES) necessary to bring him to repentance.
However, I don’t get that sense. I hear Washer telling men, Christians and non-Christians alike, that we are evil. That is “anti-Christ.” Jesus MADE us righteous – we are the righteousness of God. (2 Cor 5:21)
I am concerned that your own screen name – “Unworthy1″ – signifies your misunderstanding of your own identity in Christ. I’m not trying to pick a fight here because I spent many years seeing myself as unworthy, unholy, unrighteous. However, those are the very lies of Satan that prevented me from living the victorious life by entering into a true relationship with our loving Creator.
You assume way too much from watching one video and refusing to investigate further.
Yes, I am totally unworthy in and of myself, the righteousness I now possess has been imputed to me from Christ, it is His righteousness that I claim and enables me to go before a holy God. All our righteousness is like filthy rags. However, I must still battle sin and discipline myself under the guidance of the Spirit as I strive to be like Christ.
As for who these men were addressing, we cannot assume all who sit under the preaching of the word {this isn’t the case with Osteen because he doesn’t preach truth} are truly regenerate. You state “I hear Washer telling men, Christians and non-Christians alike, that we are evil. That is “anti-Christ.” Jesus MADE us righteous – we are the righteousness of God. (2 Cor 5:21)”
First of all, how do you know all who heard Washer’s message are ‘Christian’? That is assuming quite a bit don’t you think? As for men being evil and your claim this is ‘anti-Christ’, what do you do with all the verses in the Bible that speak of the wickedness of man? Starting with Gen 6:5- “Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually”. And Joh_3:19 “This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.” Men are born evil, wicked, depraved, hating God and hiding from Him. Even Adam hid after he’d sinned…I recommend this for you concerning the vital doctrine of total depravity of men – http://www.theologue.org/5Points-RLDabney.htm#_Toc121045802
It is ‘anti-christ’ NOT to tell sinners of their wickedness; they may cry out ‘how can I be saved’? or they may gnash their teeth, in either case, truth must be told. To present a Christ without speaking of sin and repentance is to present a different Christ. Even after God saves sinners by grace, we still sin and must repent daily. Don’t rest on one verse concerning righteousness and think you do not have to strive for holiness and Christ-likeness and battle sin the remainder of your days on this earth. If you do, you may be greatly deceived. We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling…
The Gospel is not the Gospel of Grace if you do not tell the WHOLE Gospel and that means showing people that we are sinners..
Paul in the first book of Romans shows us how utterly wicked and hopeless we are —–NOT as a means to an end but because you cannot present the GOOD news as GOOD without telling sinners the BAD news FIRST.. (it’s like a diamond that is placed on the backdrop of black velvet)…
Paul Washer does this and it never ceases to amaze me how people confuse God trying to deal with their wicked heart from man preaching at them…
You then downplay Osteen who is well known to be a heretic because he does NOT preach the Gospel and he does NOT warn people of their need to REPENT. People don’t know what or why they are to repent if they don’t know they are sinners. People need to know the GOSPEL. Anything LESS is ANOTHER GOSPEL which cannot save anyone…Osteen preaches people to feel good about themselves and have your best life NOW all the way to hell..
OK, I sense we’re getting off track here, and I want to avoid any misunderstanding.
My firm belief is that church (the “assembly of believers”) is for believers – - for equipping them. If a non-believer shows up, thats great – - but the sermon/teaching/preaching shouldn’t be directed towards them. In other words, an evangelist should be setting up shop where he’ll be able to preach to sinners, and a non-evangelist should be preaching to the saints.
If we can’t at least agree on this, then we’re too far apart for a reasonable discussion. Right?
let me add: an evangelist should be telling unbelievers/sinners of their sin. No argument on that.
Linda – all I’m doing is addressing the audio clip on this page that purports to show the “heresies” of Osteen as compared to the “sound doctrine” of Washer. I’m not setting up strawmen or using outside sources for reference other than Scripture. You may think that Osteen is a heretic – - obviously there are many who think otherwise. It’s surprisingly impolite of you to so quickly question my wisdom and use terms such as myopic when all I am is a fellow believer trying to discuss a published opinion.
To be intellectually and spiritually honest, there needs to be some context to the audio clips. My reason for delineating between an evangelist and a preacher is an attempt to provide that context. I found Washer’s website and bio (http://www.heartcrymissionary.com/about/staff/2). He’s a missionary and church planter (i.e., an evangelist.) Osteen, on the other hand, is a pastor to believers (http://www.joelosteen.com/About/Pages/AboutJoel.aspx). Each has a different gifting, and to compare them to each other is akin to comparing a mouth to a hand. One transports food to the other, which chews and eats it. Both are necessary for the proper function of the body, but both have completely different roles.
To compare one to the other by expecting them to perform the same role doesn’t pass the common sense test. Maybe you’ve seen the Einstein quote making the rounds lately: “Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.” That’s a good analogy for the “Joel Osteen vs. Paul Washer” audio compilation.
“To compare one to the other by expecting them to perform the same role doesn’t pass the common sense test.” — there is no comparison {which was the whole point of the video}, Osteen is not even in the same class with Washer. Osteen is a false teacher, he preaches a feel good, man -centered message as he professes ‘you can have your best life now’. There is no mention of sin and repentance in Osteen’s motivational speeches. Does the Bible agree with Osteen’s positive message concerning having your best life now? Christ teaches differently on this, “If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.” John 15:16
” And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household.” Matthew 10:36
“Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. ” Matthew 10:39 – I think it’s fitting to include commentary from John Gill on this particular verse ‘That man that seeks to preserve his life, and the temporal enjoyments of it, by a sinful compliance with his friends and the world, and by a denial of Christ, or non-confession of him; if he is not, by the providence of God, deprived of the good things of life, and dies a shameful death, both which are sometimes the case of such persons; yet he is sure to lose the happy and eternal life of his soul and body, in the world to come: so that the present finding of life, or the possession of it, on such sinful terms, will in the issue prove an infinite and irreparable loss unto him.’
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.” Luke 14:26,27
” So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.” Luke 14:33
This is quite a contrast to the motivational positive message Osteen proclaims. His message is centered on man and caters to the flesh, Christ calls us to die to self, to the world and to crucify the flesh {Galatians 5:24}.
From Osteen’s book, he states “As long as you’re doing your best and desire to do what’s right according to God’s Word, you can be assured God is pleased with you.” He is teaching a works based salvation, which is contrary to the true Gospel. All our ‘righteousness’ is like filthy rags – Isa. 64:6 ‘But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.’
Osteen’s statement is also is contrary to how the Bible teaches sinners are saved, ‘ For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.’ Ephesians 2:8,9
If you understood Osteen’s ministry to be false, you would have understood the video
“Osteen is not even in the same class with Washer.” That’s my point. Does it mean nothing that one is a pastor, the other is an evangelist?
“There is no mention of sin and repentance in Osteen’s motivational speeches.” That’s because he’s preaching to believers. They have already repented, and their sin has been forgiven. What is difficult to understand on this?
Regarding the “works based salvation,” it just seems clear to me that Washer is preaching that, not Osteen.
I appreciate your use of Scripture. I have no desire to read others’ works or opinions, because I can find just as many supporting my position. It’s important we stick with what God’s Word states.
With that goal in mind, I’m going to ask two questions to which I’d be grateful for a “yes” or “no” answer.
1) The following Scriptures are just a sampling of what God says is our identity in Christ. Does this fit Washer’s description of evil, sinful, wicked, etc?
I am loved.
1 John 3:1 – Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
I am accepted.
Ephesians 1:6 – To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
I am a child of God.
John 1:12 – But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.
I am Jesus’ friend.
John 15:14 – Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
I am a joint heir with Jesus, sharing His inheritance with Him.
Romans 8:17 – And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
I am united with God and one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17 – But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
I am a temple of God. His spirit and his life live in me.
1 Corinthians 6:19 – What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
I am a member of Christ’s body.
1 Corinthians 12:27 – In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.
I am a Saint.
Ephesians 1:1 – Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus.
I am redeemed and forgiven.
Colossians 1:14 – In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.
I am complete in Jesus Christ.
Colossians 2:10 – And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power.
I am free from all condemnation.
Romans 8:1 – There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
I am a new creation.
2 Corinthians 5:17 – Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
I am chosen of God, holy and dearly loved.
Colossians 3:12 – Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering.
I am established, anointed, and sealed by God.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 – Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
I do not have a spirit of fear, but of love, power, and a sound mind.
2 Timothy 1:7 – For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
I have direct access to God.
Ephesians 2:18 – For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
I am chosen to bear fruit
John 15:16 – Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
I am one of God’s living stones, being built up in Christ as a spiritual house.
1 Peter 2:5 – Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
I can always know the presence of God because He never leaves me.
Hebrews 13:5 – Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
I can ask God for wisdom and He will give to me liberally.
James 1:5 – If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men]liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
I have been justified. Romans 5:1 – Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
I am Christ’s friend. John 15:15 – Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
I belong to God. 1 Corinthians 6:20 – For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.
I am a member of Christ’s Body. 1 Corinthians 12:27 – Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
I am assured all things work together for good. Romans 8:28 – And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
I am confident that God will perfect the work He has begun in me. Philippians 1:6 – Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
I am born of God and the evil one cannot touch me. 1 John 5:18 – We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
I am chosen before the creation of the world. Ephesians 1:4, 11 – According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love…… In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
I am adopted as his child. Ephesians 1:5 – Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.
I have purpose. Ephesians 1:9 – Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
& 3:11 – According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
I have hope. Ephesians 1:12 – That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
I am a saint. Ephesians 1:18 – The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints.
I am salt and light of the earth. Matthew 5:13-14 – Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
I have been chosen and God desires me to bear fruit. John 15:1,5 – I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman…… I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
I have been shown the incomparable riches of God’s grace. Ephesians 2:7 – That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
I am God’s workmanship. Ephesians 2:10 – For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
God’s power works through me. Ephesians 3:7 – Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
I can approach God with freedom and confidence. Ephesians 3:12 – In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
I am humble, gentle, patient and lovingly tolerant of others. Ephesians 4:2 – With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
I am dead to sin. Romans 6:2 – God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
I am victorious. I John 5:4 – For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
My heart and mind is protected with God’s peace. Philippians 4:7 – And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
I am blameless. I Corinthians 1:8 – Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I am set free. Romans 8:2 – For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
& John 8:32 – And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Question #2: The Scriptures below are what God tells us is our identity in Christ. Does this sound like Washer’s description as “evil”, “wicked”, “sinners”, etc.? (Hint: either God or Washer is wrong…)
I am a Saint.
Ephesians 1:1 – Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus.
I am redeemed and forgiven.
Colossians 1:14 – In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.
I am complete in Jesus Christ.
Colossians 2:10 – And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power.
I am free from all condemnation.
Romans 8:1 – There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
I am a new creation.
2 Corinthians 5:17 – Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
I am chosen of God, holy and dearly loved.
Colossians 3:12 – Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering.
I am established, anointed, and sealed by God.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 – Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
I do not have a spirit of fear, but of love, power, and a sound mind.
2 Timothy 1:7 – For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
I have direct access to God.
Ephesians 2:18 – For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
I am chosen to bear fruit
John 15:16 – Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
I am loved.
1 John 3:1 – Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
I am accepted.
Ephesians 1:6 – To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
I am a child of God.
Question #1: The link below lists 667 sins from Scripture (note that it doesn’t include OT sins such as eating shellfish, wearing mixed cloth garments, etc.) Since sin prevents us from entering into God’s presence, do we need to memorize this list and confess each one so we receive forgiveness?
John 1:12 – But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.
I am Jesus’ friend.
John 15:14 – Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
I am a joint heir with Jesus, sharing His inheritance with Him.
Romans 8:17 – And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
I am united with God and one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17 – But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
I am a temple of God. His spirit and his life live in me.
1 Corinthians 6:19 – What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
I am a member of Christ’s body.
1 Corinthians 12:27 – In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.
I am more than a conqueror. Romans 8:37 – Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
I am redeemed from the curse of the Law. Galatians 3:13 – Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
I am qualified to share in His inheritance. Colossians 1:12 – Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
I am victorious. 1 Corinthians 15:57 – But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
I bear much lasting fruit in Christ.
John 15:8, 16 – Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples……. Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
& Romans 7:4 – Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
I am Christ’s workmanship, his opus, his poem, his masterpiece.
Ephesians 2:10 – For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
AND
Together with the Bride of Christ, I am presentable, radiant, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
Ephesians 5:27 – That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Mike L.
In all kindness…Osteen is all about your “best life now”…that is *not* what Christ calls us to. Quite the opposite actually. Jesus teaches us to focus on loving others…putting others before ourselves….living with a humble, gentle, loving spirit… taking up our cross and following Him. We are not to focus on making this our best life now!
A pastor shepherds the sheep feeding them sound doctrine…not just feel good words that tickle the ears as Osteen does. If you don’t like the comparison between Osteen and Washer…then compare Osteen’s teaching to another pastor who is sound in their teaching…such as John MacArthur or Voddie Baucham.
“There is no mention of sin and repentance in Osteen’s motivational speeches.” That’s because he’s preaching to believers. They have already repented, and their sin has been forgiven. What is difficult to understand on this?”
There is also no message of self denial, forsaking worldly pleasures, picking up your cross after Christ or anything else that Jesus speaks to his body. He is not preaching to “believers”, he is preaching to goats who want their ears tickled.
1Timothy 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
Mike L.
It is clear you are an Osteen supporter and sidetrack this thread by claiming the different roles of Osteen and Washer within the body. This would be a commendable argument IF Osteen were indeed a true follower of Christ. I present this to you again, Osteen’s statement ““As long as you’re doing your best and desire to do what’s right according to God’s Word, you can be assured God is pleased with you.” I have already provided God’s word to point out the grievous error of the mindset of Osteen, and you ignore the most vital part of this debate! The above quote was straight from Osteen’s mouth, according to his book he wrote. What do you say Osteen believes and can you provide Scripture to support your claim? This must be addressed by you before we can go off on other topics you present, i.e., your question concerning walking in perfect obedience, we will not go down rabbit trails here. You are diverting away from the issue. Let’s stay focused on debating the ministry of Osteen and what he believes. We will put it under the microscope of God’s word and see what we find.
You also say “Regarding the “works based salvation,” it just seems clear to me that Washer is preaching that, not Osteen.” It’s ironic, you say you have no desire for other’s opinions, and yet, you give one here! Can you support your accusation against Washer using God’s word? If not, you have merely formed an opinion, which you claim you have no desire for.
You also claim “They have already repented, and their sin has been forgiven. What is difficult to understand on this?” – so you are claiming believers never sin and never need to repent? What do you do with 1 John 1:8 ,’If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.’
Just know…
If you follow Mr. Osteen’s teachings (i.e. drink his Kool-Aid), THIS life (the one now, today’s, currently) is your best life! After you die you won’t experience life anymore – it’s eternal death and wrath in outer darkness, where there is no rest. It’s a terrible thing to fall into the hands of an angry God.
Mr. Osteen’s “pied piper” musings are leading hundreds of thousands to the abyss. Sad thing is, there are hundreds (if not thousands) of other “pastors” across the world who are using Mr. Osteen’s “model” as the model for their respective “ministries.”
But Joel sounds so winsome! We are 7 weeks into Romans in my church. We cleared chapter 1:26-27, entitled “The Descent of Man, Part 3″. Can’t find any part of Joel’s theology in chapter 1 of Romans. That stuff Washer is talking about – easy to spot.
One of these men is telling the Truth. One of them isn’t – that makes him a liar.
Pfffttttt……..
Joel is a joke -
Well, so much for my self esteem, Mr Washer. Thanks.
Anybody got Mr Osteen’s phone number? I need someone to have a nice chat with over a warm cup of latte and help me feel good about myself.
Joel Osteen? Shame, shame, shame!
“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Matthew 7:22-23
I’m not supporting Osteen because I’m only slightly familiar with him. And I’ve never heard of Washer. Here are some thoughts, based on 40 years of Scripture study and my own experience with pastors:
Jesus knows our thoughts and loves us unconditionally. If my thoughts were made public, I’d only be horrified to the extent that I have a fear of man. But, praise God, perfect love casts out fear.
Why is it “prophets” almost always focus on the Old Testament? It is the GOODNESS OF GOD that leads to repentance.
Speakers like Washer beat Christians over the head with their sin, yelling at them to REPENT! STOP DOING THAT!! Well, that’s great if all I want is behavior modification so I look good to others. But God doesn’t look at us like man does.
I’ve worked with hundreds of chaplains/pastors over the decades and found that the ones who focus on God’s wrath and man’s evil have deep, deep sins they are trying to compensate for. They have not clue what the victorious life is all about. If they truly had a relationship with God, and had a revelation of God’s unfathomable love, they would quit focusing on their sin and start focusing on their Creator, and their sin would disappear along with their fear of an angry God.
Where in the NT are Christians identified as “sinners”? We are SAINTS! Until we grasp that, people like Washer will continue to keep people bound in Satan’s lies. Sin isn’t the issue – - a relationship with God is.
Bottom line: the difference between these two is one focuses on God’s love, the other focuses on God’s wrath. We’re evil, God is angry… THAT IS GOOD NEWS?
Gotta add a bit more:
God says “For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.” (Jer 29:11)
If you look through the OT, THESE are the thoughts God has for His people. He prepared a promised land for them. He loves them with an eternal love. He sent His son to DIE for us “WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS” (i.e., when we accept him, sin is no longer an issue.)
If Jesus said “IT IS FINISHED,” what was he referring to?
Mike L.
I highly recommend you familiarize yourself with Osteen’s false gospel, then you will understand more clearly Washer’s words. I also recommend John MacArthur’s rebuke of Osteen and his exposing Osteen’s ‘feel good’ gospel here – http://youtu.be/jDuDN2FtrIo
As for your accusation against Washer’s constant hammering on sin, again please familiarize yourself with his ministry {http://www.hcmissions.org/} before you come to a final ‘verdict’ that Paul Washer is a man who does not preach the love of God. You could not be more wrong. Please watch this video as well – http://youtu.be/sIV-KseO_1E – then tell me Washer doesn’t know love.
Unworthy1,
Thanks for responding. However, the “Joel Osteen vs. Paul Washer” audio above is what has been presented as a juxtaposition of messages. Again, I’m not interested in digging more deeply into either individual’s teaching at this time. I found this site because I had seen an interview with Osteen (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/blaze-exclusive-joel-osteen-tackles-sin-his-rise-to-fame-being-saved-what-it-takes-to-get-into-heaven/) and just wanted to know about how he’s raising his children. My Google search terms didn’t find what I wanted, but did lead me here.
The ONLY way I could agree that Washer’s message is correct and Osteen’s message is wrong (in this audio clip) would be if BOTH were speaking to unregenerate humans. In that case, yes, Osteen would be preaching a “feel good” Gospel, and Washer is showing man his sinful nature in the eyes of God, which is sometimes (SOMETIMES) necessary to bring him to repentance.
However, I don’t get that sense. I hear Washer telling men, Christians and non-Christians alike, that we are evil. That is “anti-Christ.” Jesus MADE us righteous – we are the righteousness of God. (2 Cor 5:21)
I am concerned that your own screen name – “Unworthy1″ – signifies your misunderstanding of your own identity in Christ. I’m not trying to pick a fight here because I spent many years seeing myself as unworthy, unholy, unrighteous. However, those are the very lies of Satan that prevented me from living the victorious life by entering into a true relationship with our loving Creator.
Mike
You assume way too much from watching one video and refusing to investigate further.
Yes, I am totally unworthy in and of myself, the righteousness I now possess has been imputed to me from Christ, it is His righteousness that I claim and enables me to go before a holy God. All our righteousness is like filthy rags. However, I must still battle sin and discipline myself under the guidance of the Spirit as I strive to be like Christ.
As for who these men were addressing, we cannot assume all who sit under the preaching of the word {this isn’t the case with Osteen because he doesn’t preach truth} are truly regenerate. You state “I hear Washer telling men, Christians and non-Christians alike, that we are evil. That is “anti-Christ.” Jesus MADE us righteous – we are the righteousness of God. (2 Cor 5:21)”
First of all, how do you know all who heard Washer’s message are ‘Christian’? That is assuming quite a bit don’t you think? As for men being evil and your claim this is ‘anti-Christ’, what do you do with all the verses in the Bible that speak of the wickedness of man? Starting with Gen 6:5- “Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually”. And Joh_3:19 “This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.” Men are born evil, wicked, depraved, hating God and hiding from Him. Even Adam hid after he’d sinned…I recommend this for you concerning the vital doctrine of total depravity of men – http://www.theologue.org/5Points-RLDabney.htm#_Toc121045802
It is ‘anti-christ’ NOT to tell sinners of their wickedness; they may cry out ‘how can I be saved’? or they may gnash their teeth, in either case, truth must be told. To present a Christ without speaking of sin and repentance is to present a different Christ. Even after God saves sinners by grace, we still sin and must repent daily. Don’t rest on one verse concerning righteousness and think you do not have to strive for holiness and Christ-likeness and battle sin the remainder of your days on this earth. If you do, you may be greatly deceived. We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling…
Mike L. your arguments are straw-men..
The Gospel is not the Gospel of Grace if you do not tell the WHOLE Gospel and that means showing people that we are sinners..
Paul in the first book of Romans shows us how utterly wicked and hopeless we are —–NOT as a means to an end but because you cannot present the GOOD news as GOOD without telling sinners the BAD news FIRST.. (it’s like a diamond that is placed on the backdrop of black velvet)…
Paul Washer does this and it never ceases to amaze me how people confuse God trying to deal with their wicked heart from man preaching at them…
You then downplay Osteen who is well known to be a heretic because he does NOT preach the Gospel and he does NOT warn people of their need to REPENT. People don’t know what or why they are to repent if they don’t know they are sinners. People need to know the GOSPEL. Anything LESS is ANOTHER GOSPEL which cannot save anyone…Osteen preaches people to feel good about themselves and have your best life NOW all the way to hell..
OK, I sense we’re getting off track here, and I want to avoid any misunderstanding.
My firm belief is that church (the “assembly of believers”) is for believers – - for equipping them. If a non-believer shows up, thats great – - but the sermon/teaching/preaching shouldn’t be directed towards them. In other words, an evangelist should be setting up shop where he’ll be able to preach to sinners, and a non-evangelist should be preaching to the saints.
If we can’t at least agree on this, then we’re too far apart for a reasonable discussion. Right?
let me add: an evangelist should be telling unbelievers/sinners of their sin. No argument on that.
Mke L. “I’m glad you agree that an evangelist should be telling unbelievers/sinners of their sin. No argument on that”
However your refusal to investigate Osteen has not been wise on your part and so you don’t have a BALANCED view nor argument and it is myopic
Until you find out what Osteen actually espouses there’s really no point in discussing this any further…
Linda – all I’m doing is addressing the audio clip on this page that purports to show the “heresies” of Osteen as compared to the “sound doctrine” of Washer. I’m not setting up strawmen or using outside sources for reference other than Scripture. You may think that Osteen is a heretic – - obviously there are many who think otherwise. It’s surprisingly impolite of you to so quickly question my wisdom and use terms such as myopic when all I am is a fellow believer trying to discuss a published opinion.
To be intellectually and spiritually honest, there needs to be some context to the audio clips. My reason for delineating between an evangelist and a preacher is an attempt to provide that context. I found Washer’s website and bio (http://www.heartcrymissionary.com/about/staff/2). He’s a missionary and church planter (i.e., an evangelist.) Osteen, on the other hand, is a pastor to believers (http://www.joelosteen.com/About/Pages/AboutJoel.aspx). Each has a different gifting, and to compare them to each other is akin to comparing a mouth to a hand. One transports food to the other, which chews and eats it. Both are necessary for the proper function of the body, but both have completely different roles.
To compare one to the other by expecting them to perform the same role doesn’t pass the common sense test. Maybe you’ve seen the Einstein quote making the rounds lately: “Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.” That’s a good analogy for the “Joel Osteen vs. Paul Washer” audio compilation.
Can you accept that?
“To compare one to the other by expecting them to perform the same role doesn’t pass the common sense test.” — there is no comparison {which was the whole point of the video}, Osteen is not even in the same class with Washer. Osteen is a false teacher, he preaches a feel good, man -centered message as he professes ‘you can have your best life now’. There is no mention of sin and repentance in Osteen’s motivational speeches. Does the Bible agree with Osteen’s positive message concerning having your best life now? Christ teaches differently on this, “If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.” John 15:16
” And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household.” Matthew 10:36
“Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. ” Matthew 10:39 – I think it’s fitting to include commentary from John Gill on this particular verse ‘That man that seeks to preserve his life, and the temporal enjoyments of it, by a sinful compliance with his friends and the world, and by a denial of Christ, or non-confession of him; if he is not, by the providence of God, deprived of the good things of life, and dies a shameful death, both which are sometimes the case of such persons; yet he is sure to lose the happy and eternal life of his soul and body, in the world to come: so that the present finding of life, or the possession of it, on such sinful terms, will in the issue prove an infinite and irreparable loss unto him.’
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.” Luke 14:26,27
” So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.” Luke 14:33
This is quite a contrast to the motivational positive message Osteen proclaims. His message is centered on man and caters to the flesh, Christ calls us to die to self, to the world and to crucify the flesh {Galatians 5:24}.
From Osteen’s book, he states “As long as you’re doing your best and desire to do what’s right according to God’s Word, you can be assured God is pleased with you.” He is teaching a works based salvation, which is contrary to the true Gospel. All our ‘righteousness’ is like filthy rags – Isa. 64:6 ‘But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.’
Osteen’s statement is also is contrary to how the Bible teaches sinners are saved, ‘ For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.’ Ephesians 2:8,9
If you understood Osteen’s ministry to be false, you would have understood the video
Mike,
I also encourage you to read this from Pastor Gary Gilley of Southern View Chapel – http://www.svchapel.org/resources/articles/22-contemporary-issues/620-joel-osteen-and-the-prosperity-gospel
“Osteen is not even in the same class with Washer.” That’s my point. Does it mean nothing that one is a pastor, the other is an evangelist?
“There is no mention of sin and repentance in Osteen’s motivational speeches.” That’s because he’s preaching to believers. They have already repented, and their sin has been forgiven. What is difficult to understand on this?
Regarding the “works based salvation,” it just seems clear to me that Washer is preaching that, not Osteen.
I appreciate your use of Scripture. I have no desire to read others’ works or opinions, because I can find just as many supporting my position. It’s important we stick with what God’s Word states.
With that goal in mind, I’m going to ask two questions to which I’d be grateful for a “yes” or “no” answer.
1) The following Scriptures are just a sampling of what God says is our identity in Christ. Does this fit Washer’s description of evil, sinful, wicked, etc?
I am loved.
1 John 3:1 – Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
I am accepted.
Ephesians 1:6 – To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
I am a child of God.
John 1:12 – But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.
I am Jesus’ friend.
John 15:14 – Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
I am a joint heir with Jesus, sharing His inheritance with Him.
Romans 8:17 – And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
I am united with God and one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17 – But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
I am a temple of God. His spirit and his life live in me.
1 Corinthians 6:19 – What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
I am a member of Christ’s body.
1 Corinthians 12:27 – In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.
I am a Saint.
Ephesians 1:1 – Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus.
I am redeemed and forgiven.
Colossians 1:14 – In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.
I am complete in Jesus Christ.
Colossians 2:10 – And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power.
I am free from all condemnation.
Romans 8:1 – There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
I am a new creation.
2 Corinthians 5:17 – Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
I am chosen of God, holy and dearly loved.
Colossians 3:12 – Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering.
I am established, anointed, and sealed by God.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 – Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
I do not have a spirit of fear, but of love, power, and a sound mind.
2 Timothy 1:7 – For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
I have direct access to God.
Ephesians 2:18 – For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
I am chosen to bear fruit
John 15:16 – Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
I am one of God’s living stones, being built up in Christ as a spiritual house.
1 Peter 2:5 – Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
I can always know the presence of God because He never leaves me.
Hebrews 13:5 – Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
I can ask God for wisdom and He will give to me liberally.
James 1:5 – If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men]liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
I have been justified. Romans 5:1 – Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
I am Christ’s friend. John 15:15 – Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
I belong to God. 1 Corinthians 6:20 – For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.
I am a member of Christ’s Body. 1 Corinthians 12:27 – Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
I am assured all things work together for good. Romans 8:28 – And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
I am confident that God will perfect the work He has begun in me. Philippians 1:6 – Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
I am born of God and the evil one cannot touch me. 1 John 5:18 – We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
I am chosen before the creation of the world. Ephesians 1:4, 11 – According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love…… In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
I am adopted as his child. Ephesians 1:5 – Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.
I have purpose. Ephesians 1:9 – Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
& 3:11 – According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
I have hope. Ephesians 1:12 – That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
I am a saint. Ephesians 1:18 – The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints.
I am salt and light of the earth. Matthew 5:13-14 – Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
I have been chosen and God desires me to bear fruit. John 15:1,5 – I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman…… I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
I have been shown the incomparable riches of God’s grace. Ephesians 2:7 – That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
I am God’s workmanship. Ephesians 2:10 – For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
God’s power works through me. Ephesians 3:7 – Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
I can approach God with freedom and confidence. Ephesians 3:12 – In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
I am humble, gentle, patient and lovingly tolerant of others. Ephesians 4:2 – With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
I am dead to sin. Romans 6:2 – God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
I am victorious. I John 5:4 – For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
My heart and mind is protected with God’s peace. Philippians 4:7 – And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
I am blameless. I Corinthians 1:8 – Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I am set free. Romans 8:2 – For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
& John 8:32 – And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Question #2: The Scriptures below are what God tells us is our identity in Christ. Does this sound like Washer’s description as “evil”, “wicked”, “sinners”, etc.? (Hint: either God or Washer is wrong…)
I am a Saint.
Ephesians 1:1 – Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus.
I am redeemed and forgiven.
Colossians 1:14 – In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.
I am complete in Jesus Christ.
Colossians 2:10 – And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power.
I am free from all condemnation.
Romans 8:1 – There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
I am a new creation.
2 Corinthians 5:17 – Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
I am chosen of God, holy and dearly loved.
Colossians 3:12 – Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering.
I am established, anointed, and sealed by God.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 – Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
I do not have a spirit of fear, but of love, power, and a sound mind.
2 Timothy 1:7 – For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
I have direct access to God.
Ephesians 2:18 – For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
I am chosen to bear fruit
John 15:16 – Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
I am loved.
1 John 3:1 – Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
I am accepted.
Ephesians 1:6 – To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
I am a child of God.
Question #1: The link below lists 667 sins from Scripture (note that it doesn’t include OT sins such as eating shellfish, wearing mixed cloth garments, etc.) Since sin prevents us from entering into God’s presence, do we need to memorize this list and confess each one so we receive forgiveness?
http://www.scribd.com/doc/14087682/667-Sins-in-the-Holy-Bible
John 1:12 – But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.
I am Jesus’ friend.
John 15:14 – Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
I am a joint heir with Jesus, sharing His inheritance with Him.
Romans 8:17 – And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
I am united with God and one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17 – But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
I am a temple of God. His spirit and his life live in me.
1 Corinthians 6:19 – What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
I am a member of Christ’s body.
1 Corinthians 12:27 – In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.
I am more than a conqueror. Romans 8:37 – Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
I am redeemed from the curse of the Law. Galatians 3:13 – Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
I am qualified to share in His inheritance. Colossians 1:12 – Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
I am victorious. 1 Corinthians 15:57 – But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
I bear much lasting fruit in Christ.
John 15:8, 16 – Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples……. Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
& Romans 7:4 – Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
I am Christ’s workmanship, his opus, his poem, his masterpiece.
Ephesians 2:10 – For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
AND
Together with the Bride of Christ, I am presentable, radiant, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
Ephesians 5:27 – That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Mike L.
In all kindness…Osteen is all about your “best life now”…that is *not* what Christ calls us to. Quite the opposite actually. Jesus teaches us to focus on loving others…putting others before ourselves….living with a humble, gentle, loving spirit… taking up our cross and following Him. We are not to focus on making this our best life now!
A pastor shepherds the sheep feeding them sound doctrine…not just feel good words that tickle the ears as Osteen does. If you don’t like the comparison between Osteen and Washer…then compare Osteen’s teaching to another pastor who is sound in their teaching…such as John MacArthur or Voddie Baucham.
Kindly,
Katy
“There is no mention of sin and repentance in Osteen’s motivational speeches.” That’s because he’s preaching to believers. They have already repented, and their sin has been forgiven. What is difficult to understand on this?”
There is also no message of self denial, forsaking worldly pleasures, picking up your cross after Christ or anything else that Jesus speaks to his body. He is not preaching to “believers”, he is preaching to goats who want their ears tickled.
1Timothy 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
Mike L.
It is clear you are an Osteen supporter and sidetrack this thread by claiming the different roles of Osteen and Washer within the body. This would be a commendable argument IF Osteen were indeed a true follower of Christ. I present this to you again, Osteen’s statement ““As long as you’re doing your best and desire to do what’s right according to God’s Word, you can be assured God is pleased with you.” I have already provided God’s word to point out the grievous error of the mindset of Osteen, and you ignore the most vital part of this debate! The above quote was straight from Osteen’s mouth, according to his book he wrote. What do you say Osteen believes and can you provide Scripture to support your claim? This must be addressed by you before we can go off on other topics you present, i.e., your question concerning walking in perfect obedience, we will not go down rabbit trails here. You are diverting away from the issue. Let’s stay focused on debating the ministry of Osteen and what he believes. We will put it under the microscope of God’s word and see what we find.
You also say “Regarding the “works based salvation,” it just seems clear to me that Washer is preaching that, not Osteen.” It’s ironic, you say you have no desire for other’s opinions, and yet, you give one here! Can you support your accusation against Washer using God’s word? If not, you have merely formed an opinion, which you claim you have no desire for.
You also claim “They have already repented, and their sin has been forgiven. What is difficult to understand on this?” – so you are claiming believers never sin and never need to repent? What do you do with 1 John 1:8 ,’If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.’
Just know…
If you follow Mr. Osteen’s teachings (i.e. drink his Kool-Aid), THIS life (the one now, today’s, currently) is your best life! After you die you won’t experience life anymore – it’s eternal death and wrath in outer darkness, where there is no rest. It’s a terrible thing to fall into the hands of an angry God.
Mr. Osteen’s “pied piper” musings are leading hundreds of thousands to the abyss. Sad thing is, there are hundreds (if not thousands) of other “pastors” across the world who are using Mr. Osteen’s “model” as the model for their respective “ministries.”
May God have mercy.
Todd
Texas