The Pilgrim
Coram Deo
Bill
unworthy1
brother Michael
Drugs, adultery, homosexuality, pornography, divorce, and occult imagery. These are just a few of the things that describe the golden calf of Contemporary Christian Music.
When one actually delves beyond the happy, clappy, sappy, sentimentalism, and shallow “Jesus-is-my-boyfriend” lyrics that define CCM, we see just what these artists are really about.
The laundry list of problems with CCM artists should be enough to alarm most people especially when you consider that so many professing Christians get their theology from CCM (I wish this was just hyperbole).
Now, I know all these musicians and entertainers are human and susceptible to failure like the rest of us, but you have to admit there’s a proportionally large amount of problems within CCM. Historically, the lifestyles and theology of these artists have consistently been an embarrassment.
Sandi Patty’s extra-marital affair and divorce; Michael English and his extra-marital affair with singer Marabeth Jordan of the Christian band First Call; Clay Crosse’s addiction to pornography; Jaci Velasquez and her seductive performance with scantly-clad dancers in Santa lingerie; Caedmon Call’s mingling with the world.
And then there’s those whose worldviews and doctrines send up red flags: Both Rich Mullins’ intention to be baptized into the apostate Roman Catholic Church (before his unexpected death) and POD’s Rastafarianism and use of occult imagery quickly come to mind.
Although some of these artists may have had a true repentant heart after their transgressions came to light, in too many cases, however, I see very little repentance and sadly, even a lifestyle of flaunting their sin. Ray Boltz embracing his sin of homosexuality and now celebrating it comes to mind as well as Amy Grant’s unscriptural divorce and her 2005 appearance in California where she received a star on Hollywood’s Walk of Fame in which she discredited her Christian testimony not only in her dress (or lack thereof) but in her speech as well.
And now the latest pockmark to appear on the already scarred face of CCM comes from one of evangelicalism’s favorite “worship leaders,” David Crowder of the David Crowder Band.
Crowder, who is the
author of the contemplative-promoting book, Praise Habit (referring to the habits worn by Catholic nuns),
also participated in a contemplative/emergent conference with the likes of
Leonard Sweet, Chuck Fromm (founder of the event and of Worship Leader magazine), emerging leader Sally Morgenthaler, Brennan Manning proponent Michael W. Smith . . . contemplative/emerging Marva Dawn, Alpha Course leader and contemplative proponent Todd Hunter, and others.
(See more about this from the source Lighthouse Trails.)
But Crowder’s lack of discernment doesn’t end here. He recently granted an interview to the Roman Catholic “movement” known as Life Teen (whose promo video was previously featured on DefCon here) in which they state on their website:
Because of our deep Eucharistic devotion, Life Teen has developed a spirituality that is
- 100% Catholic
- Obedient to the Magisterium
- Centered on the Eucharist
- Scriptural
- Liturgical
- Catechetical
- Sacramental
- Focused on social justice
And:
On December 9, 2007, [at] the Feast of St. Juan Diego, we consecrated the Life Teen movement to the Blessed Virgin Mary and will renew our consecration annually by prayerfully participating in the St. Louis Marie de Montfort Total Consecration. [Emphasis theirs]
And:
Our entire ministry is dedicated to the Blessed Virgin Mary so that we may be led to the feet of her son with the obedience she exemplified.
If you’re wondering why Crowder (or any evangelical for that matter) would grant an interview with the idolatrous Romanists whose teachings and beliefs are antithetical to biblical Christianity, wonder no more. Crowder–whose music may very well be in your car stereo or on your teenager’s ipod right now–concedes in this interview a rather interesting source of influence in the “formation of [his] faith.”
Here’s the question from the interviewer Matt Smith:
You are not Catholic, but on your Illuminate album, you sing a prayer of St. Francis of Assisi. What’s your connection?
Here’s the evangelical “worship leader’s” answer:
Much of the Catholic traditions and writings have been influential in my formation of faith and to be quite contradictory of what was stated earlier, I’ve found much inspiration there. St. Francis is a figure I’m equally attracted to and repelled by. I long for his powers of disassociation from the trappings of “stuff.” I’m beset with consumption and materialism, and he is a compelling symbol of contentment. His contentment and way of suffering terrify me.
You can read the whole interview here.
Let this be a warning fellow pilgrims, not all that glitters is gold, and not everything labeled “Christian,” that’s sold in “Christian” bookstores, and that’s played on “Christian” pop-music stations is what it’s purported to be.
Be cautious that you are not influenced by those who’ve been influenced by Rome. Be careful little eyes what you see; be careful little ears what you hear; and always be sure to choose your entertainment wisely.
Eeeeek!
Never surprised to see what comes next from this camp….
That dude looks like a relation to the freak who “tokes Jesus” – his name eludes me but you know who I mean.
On a related note, I saw a billboard yesterday, far north Houston, touting this web site: MEJ.com It’s a very new-age Roman Catholic outreach program. Perhaps people could drive by, listening to David Crowder’s music and see this billboard. The two go together like chocolate and peanut butter!
Nothing surprises me about these artist’s.
Pilgrim, I think you ran a lawn mower over a yellow jackets nest with this post ; )
I long ago gave up on our local Contemporary Christian Music station – an operation that rarely uses the word “Christian” – rather using the two tag lines “Positive Hits” and “safe for the little ears in the back seat”. The CCM station on Siruis XM is no better.
What is really disturbing is the hold these artists have on believers – especially young, impressionable believers.
Interesting that Isaiah and Ezekiel both hint at the idea that Lucifer was involved in music before he was cast out of God’s presence.
Hab
i lol @ u
jesus wuz made fun of 4 hangin out wif sinners, 2. good thing he still loved da newbs who judged him.
ur trippin on crowder for da same stuff, lol.
how much did da pharisee class cost u @ seminary.
Joe, I doubt you are of the Faith.
Joe –
It would be beneficial if you have an opinion, whether positive or negative regarding this post, to express yourself with full sentences, real words and at least a cursory adherence to basic grammar. This will take you a lot farther in life if you so desire to grow and mature into a man of God rather than following the reckless path set by Gen Y who seem to think it is cool to break any and all rules.
Habakkuk–
Great idea man. Attack the music. As if the worship wars of the 90′s weren’t enough. Hey, did you know that the piano was a bar instrument before it ever entered our churches. Are you aware that Charles and John Wesley hung out at the bar and that many of their hymns are old bar tunes. I guess that means some of those “Hymns” are actually satanic tools used by Lucifer himself. Get a grip!
Joe’s comment proves that the dumbing down of America, or any nation for that matter, is indeed ‘cool’. We have sunk to the depths of not deeming it necessary to speak in complete sentences, not using proper grammar, and assuming our ‘opinions’ hold more water than God’s own word. I am almost afraid to say this,but, can it get any worse?!?
Yes, I know the answer to that already…..
Come quickly Lord Jesus, before we self-destruct
Lyn
————————————————————————–
Jason,
Hey man, can you like back up your comments with any kind of biblical proof man?
My horrific grammar is done on purpose to emphasize my previous post, the dumbing down of America.
Since when is it acceptable before a Holy God to ‘borrow’ something from the secular world, in this case, rock music, slap a ‘Christian’ label on it and serve it up to the Lord as an ‘acceptable sacrifice’?
What is lacking in Christianity today? Discernment; the goats follow this garbage, the sheep cry out against it.
There is a reason why John the apostle warns us so clearly in 1 John 2:15, ‘DO NOT LOVE THE WORLD’.
“Listening to music without discernment and godly intent reveals a heart willing to flirt with the world” – from C.J. Mahany’s book ‘Worldliness’.
P.S.- It isn’t so much the music as it is Crowder’s bad theology, this is evidence of what really lies in a heart. What we believe shapes and molds us, whether it be 100% absolute biblical truth, or a little truth mixed with a little poison, which is always deadly.
Hey Jason,
Your ignorance of the facts concerning Charles and John Wesley is alarming. Maybe you’re wrong about a lot of OTHER stuff too, no?
http://www.gbod.org/worship/default.asp?act=reader&item_id=2639
Did the Wesleys Really Use Drinking Song Tunes for Their Hymns?
by Dean B. McIntyre
There is a popular misconception that continues to survive among United Methodists that John and Charles Wesley made use of tavern, drinking, or bar songs, as melodies for their hymns. The same is often heard of the great reformer and musician, Martin Luther. This claim is sometimes made to show the extent of their evangelistic zeal; namely, that they would go out into the secular culture, even into the taverns, saloons, and parlors frequented by the sinners they sought to redeem and make use of the musical language, the familiar drinking song tunes, for their own sacred hymns. The claim continues to be made today by some musicians, pastors, worship leaders, composers, and hymn writers. Unfortunately, this is a misapplication of a historical inaccuracy.
Confusion of Terms
The truth is that the Wesleys and Luther never made such use of saloon songs, nor would they have condoned such use. The misconception stems from confusion over a musical term ‘bar form’. In German literature and music of the Middle Ages, “Bar” was a poem consisting of three or more stanzas. Each stanza was divided into two Stollen (section a) and one Abgesang (section b), which yielded a form of AAB. The term “bar form” is commonly used today to refer to any poem or musical composition in this AAB form, or any variation of bar form, such as AABA. A number of Luther’s hymns and tunes used this form, including “A Mighty Fortress Is Our God.” Other chorales (“Praise to the Lord, the Almighty”) and hymns (“What a Friend We Have in Jesus,” “Come, Christians, Join to Sing,” “When I Survey the Wondrous Cross,” “Rescue the Perishing”) also use bar form. A number of tunes accompanying Wesley texts in the current United Methodist
Hymnal also use bar form, including:
“Praise the Lord Who Reigns Above,” UMH 96
“Thou Hidden Source of Calm Repose,” UMH 153
“Come, Thou Long-Expected Jesus,” UMH 196
“Hail the Day That Sees Him Rise,” UMH 312
“Love Divine, All Loves Excelling,” UMH 384
“I Want a Principle Within,” UMH 410
“See How Great a Flame Aspires,” UMH 541
“Come, Let Us Use the Grace Divine,” UMH 606
“O the Depth of Love Divine,” UMH 627
“Because Thou Hast Said,” UMH 635
“Give Me a Faith Which Can Remove,” UMH 650
“Come, Let Us Join Our Friends Above,” UMH 709
“Lo, He Comes with Clouds Descending,” UMH 718
It is not difficult to understand how the musical term, bar form, also sometimes referred to as bar tune, can become confused in an uninformed person’s mind with barroom tune, drinking song, or some other title to indicate music to accompany the drinking of alcoholic beverages.
The Wesleyan Aesthetic for Hymn Tunes
There is also the deeper issue of whether the importing of secular and drinking songs into the church to accompany congregational singing would be acceptable to the Wesleys. Wesley issued three collections of tunes: the Foundery Collection in 1742, Select Hymns with Tunes Annext (in which first appears his celebrated “Directions for Singing,” reprinted on page vii of The United Methodist Hymnal) in 1761, and his last, Sacred Harmony, in 1780. What we find in these collections yields an important insight into Wesley’s musical aesthetic for hymn tunes. Here we find the simple, traditional psalm tunes and hymn melodies, primarily from Anglican song. A number of these survive in our own 1989 United Methodist Hymnal (nos. 60, 96, 142, 181, 302, 385, 414, 450, 682). However, many of Charles’s texts were in increasing number and complexity of meter and required new sources for tunes to accompany them. John made use of new tunes composed or adapted from folk tunes, sacred and secular oratorio, and even operatic melodies. It should not escape us that whenever Wesley allowed the use of secular music — as from oratorio and opera — he used music of accepted high standard and almost always from classical rather than popular sources. In no instance did Wesley turn to tavern or drinking songs or other such unseemly sources to carry the sacred texts of songs and hymns.
Another help to understanding what Wesley considered appropriate in hymn tunes is to be found in his “Directions for Singing.” Of particular importance is a portion of his fourth direction: “Be no more afraid of your voice now, nor more ashamed of its being heard, than when you sung the songs of Satan.” It is clear that Wesley intends the “songs of Satan” to no longer be sung. Also important is his seventh direction:
“Above all sing spiritually. Have an eye to God in every word you sing. Aim at pleasing him more than yourself, or any other creature. In order to do this attend strictly to the sense of what you sing, and see that your heart is not carried away with the sound, but offered to God continually; so shall your singing be such as the Lord will approve here, and reward you when he cometh in the clouds of heaven.”
Wesley’s aesthetic to “above all sing spiritually” simply would not allow drinking songs to accompany hymn texts.
Finally, in no hymn book, tune book, or other publication of the Wesleys can there be found any example of or encouragement to use drinking songs for singing hymns.
What About Today?
The question still remains, “What about today? Just because Luther and the Wesleys didn’t use drinking song tunes and other popular music for their hymns, does that mean we shouldn’t?”
Whether Wesley did or didn’t use drinking songs is not really the issue. Rather, the issue is why Wesley did or didn’t use them. Wesley found the close association of hymn text and tune (even commonly referred to as a “wedding”) to be of such importance that the use of tavern songs was beneath consideration. It was never a possibility. That question remains for us to answer today. Do we find it acceptable, appropriate, and commendable to select the music of drunken sailors or the local tavern for our worship? If Wesley’s reasoning for the Methodists of his time remains valid for our own, then the answer is no; and those who choose to use such music in worship should be able to dispute Wesley’s practice convincingly. Further, those who justify in our day the use of secular culture and influences in United Methodist worship by claiming that Wesley used drinking songs in his own day should be called to account.
For further discussion of this topic, see Dean McIntyre’s article “Debunking the Wesley Tavern Song Myth”, posted August 16, 2002.
http://www.gbod.org/worship/default.asp?act=reader&item_id=5442
For Further Reading
“Bar Form” entry in Harvard Dictionary of Music (2d edition, revised and enlarged) by Willi Apel (Cambridge, Mass.: The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 1969).
“Bar Form” entry in Encyclopaedia Britannica
Companion to The United Methodist Hymnal by Carlton R. Young (Nashville: Abingdon Press, 1993).
“John Wesley’s Choice of Hymn Tunes” by Fred Kimball Graham (1988), The Hymn 39 (4):29-37.
Sing with Understanding: An Introduction to Christian Hymnology by Harry Eskew and Hugh T. McElrath (Nashville: Broadman Press, 1980).
___
Dean B. McIntyre is the director of music resources for the General Board of Discipleship.
___
This article may be copied, downloaded, and used for local church worship and education use without charge provided this entire copyright clause is included on each copy made.
Copyright — 2001, 2002 The United Methodist General Board of Discipleship, PO Box 340003, Nashville TN 37203-0003; telephone: (615) 340-7073; Worship Website http://www.umcworship.org. All rights reserved. Useb by permission.
posted 4-17-01
@Jason – re.: “Are you aware that Charles and John Wesley hung out at the bar and that many of their hymns are old bar tunes. I guess that means some of those “Hymns” are actually satanic tools used by Lucifer himself. Get a grip!”
That is a myth which has been dispelled for years. Here is some decent research on this ‘perpetuated justification for compromise’:
http://www.wayoflife.org/database/tavernmusic.html
http://www.wayoflife.org/database/luthertavernmusic.html
and this one, from Dean B. McIntyre (the director of music resources for the General Board of Discipleship with United Methodists):
http://www.gbod.org/worship/default.asp?act=reader&item_id=2639&loc_id=17,387
The fact is, Luther and the Wesley’s did not use tavern music as templates for their hymns. If you bother to read the articles, I’m sure you will see the error of this myth.
_________________________
1 Cor. 1:18 – “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”
1 Cor. 2:2 – “For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.”
1 Cor. 3:19 – “For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.”
__________________________________________________________________
@Jeff H – same thought at the same time?… nice.
…
I don’t ‘denounce’ anyone who listens to CCM as heretics or any of that nonsense. I firmly believe though, and am convicted, that it is worldly, deceptive, stylistically profane, and in many ways worse than regular pop music. Worse, because at least secular music doesn’t pretend to be something that it is not. I see around me those with very consecrated lives; those who seem to be holy women and men of God, who are Christ-like in their sanctified walk: and they turn away from this type of music. I believe Jesus would not have celebrated or partaken in profane (common) worship styles, yet still embraced those who chose to. In the parable of the Father (prodigal son), the father still shows compassion on the elder son in Lk. 15:31-32 in spite of his dead works, legalism and selfishness. While I DO view much of ‘liberal’ Christianity (CCM-embracing) as heavily works-driven, inwardly-focused and even legalistic (I know, that sounds like a contradiction, but on close investigation of liberalism you will find that the grace of God is made insufficient), as long as they aren’t straying from the fundamentals of the faith, they are still brethren. Sadly, many of their churches are the most tare-riddled places on earth. My wife and I desire to serve God in a Church that is neither Laodicean nor one that has lost its first love due to dead orthodoxy (Rev. 2:4). God has gracefully placed us in a local Church which worships Him using only the old Hymns (and even those with discernment), and Psalms. When Christ is truly at the center, the trappings of the world will easily be washed away because of the beloved elect’s glad obedience to Him. When the center becomes institutional, corporate and purpose-driven (etc…), then ‘anything goes’ in terms of worship (as long as felt-needs are met, and numbers climb), and then of course the local church (and subsequently, the denomination) begins to look like the world.
In Christ,
Aaron
y wud all u people want 2 listen to da old songs?!?!?
i want to sing a new 1!!!
my yuth pastor sayz itz nawt wut christian song u sing but da heart and ‘tude behind it.
thanx 4 alienating da next genurasion of christians wif ur lame rules.
i’d prob hav to wear a suit to b axepted @ ur church, huh?
huhhhh?
what did joe say?
I don’t think he is serious
FOR EVERYONE OVER 16 . . .
(translated with Google Translate)
Why does it seem that many on this site wants to enforce a “only my old hymns” song list for my iPod? (Zune actually, but you get the idea.)
My youth pastor has taught us that what you sing isn’t as near as important as your heart behind it. Isaiah 1:13-15 I happen to believe him.
It feels as if adults are trying to alienate the us because our culture didn’t fit into what there’s was when they grew up.
Keep your LAME rules that dictate appearance (suits, no hats, jeans or piercings) and focus on whats on the heart. That is, if you don’t want to lose us.
iz dat ok?
I suggest you keep your worship of Christ biblical. Stop dragging the world into the church and dressing it up as ‘Christian’. Those who truly love Christ have no desire for piercings, cool dress, or any other means of trying to be just like the world. We are not of the world, that is why we have no desire to be like it.
Examine yourself Joe and see if you are indeed in the faith. Those who have been born from above are being changed from the inside out, it’s called regeneration. It’s the transformation that takes place in the mind, both by His power and His word; this transformation is made manifest in our thoughts, speech, and actions.
You can listen to whatever you desire, you can dress however you desire; that doesn’t mean what you want and like is biblical.
I ask you this, show me, from scripture, where youth pastors and praise and worship bands are mentioned?
I am not worried about ‘losing you’, I am more concerned if you are truly saved,by biblical standards, not man’s. No decision, no inviting Jesus into your heart, no method of simply choosing Jesus is found in God’s word. Those who truly are born again are the ones whose lives reflect a change, a desire for holiness, to be conformed to His image. That may not fly too well in today’s emerging church; truth is, the road that leads through most churches today is broad and wide, we all know where it ends.
From the original post, how do you defend this Joe? Please, use a biblical defense…
Funny thing Joe, but there are rules in life per God’s ordination of orderly society so you best grow up and learn to deal with them if you want to go anywhere in life. Unless that is you desire to revert back to the uncivilized ways of the barbarians where grunts were the accepted means of communication.
Secondly, boys who want to grow up from being childish to being men, seek to put away childish things (see 1 Cor 13:11) and to learn from their elders (1 Pet 5:5). In this, they likewise submit to rules (nasty things that they are) and not to boast as if the world revolves around them. Read the Scriptures and you will find that it is parents and elders whom God has entrusted to lead the young, not the other way around as your generation arrogantly believes.
Thirdly, you do well to note that the Scriptures declare rebellion as the sin of witchcraft where God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.
Finally, from one who labels rules as LAME it is ironic, is it not? how you want us to follow your rule whereby we submit to your wishes. Sorry – but that is not happening and if you and your generation is lost, it is not at our expense but rather due to your recalcitrant and rebellious heart.
Howz dat 4 ya?
Ha ha ha ha….This is entertaining! I’m sitting here reading this as my bride practices How Great Thou Art for a funeral tomorrow.
Old bar songs!?! Not in the ones I used to frequent.
Joe Mama…It’s not about YOU it is about JESUS…till you understand that, you ARE alienated…cach my drif?
I don’t get the “show me the praise and worship bands and youth pastors are biblical” question.
Couldn’t I just ask you “Show me where Blogs, Children’s Pastor, Christian Arts, underwear, hair coloring, makeup, etc” is in the bible.
Why should a guy be considered an unbeliever if he has his ear pierced?
As far as praise and worship bands are concerned, those who were skilled musicians led worship in the old testament, why should it have changed?
Also, if I dress “cool” (lol), I don’t understand how that reflects a heart that desires worldly pleasures more than Jesus. Does dressing uncool make me more holy?
When I witness to others at my school about Christ, I better not be wearing a robe and sandals! After all “Man looks at the outward” right? As long as I’m clean and covered up(as MawMaw says) my conscience is clean!
I’ll try not to offend others with my outward appearance, and I’ll please God with my inward one.
Joe,
I am asking you to show me, from God’s word, where He has mandated the office of youth pastor/minister/group. Also, where do we find Christian rock bands defined in scripture?
As for how we act, dress, behave; these outward ‘works’ are evidence of whether or not one is truly saved. You see, the battle is in the mind, a mind that is saturated with God’s word leads to an outward behavior that manifests itself in proper attire, speech, conduct, etc.; no worldly traces are found, such as tattoos, piercings, etc. Let me ask you this, how are tattoos, piercings, etc glorifying to God?
This is from God’s word, – Lev 19:28 You ‘shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the LORD’
If you cannot define your beliefs solely by scripture, then you have created a ‘god’ in your own image, a god who looks, acts, and is just like you. This is a grievous sin.
Piercings don’t necessarily mean one isn’t saved, many of us have piercings, tattoos, etc. we received BEFORE God saved us; would I get a tattoo now? No, I refer you back to Lev. 19:28. No one is saying you aren’t saved because of your piercing, it is your defense of unbiblical ways that make you suspect.
BTW, you haven’t responded to my request for a biblical defense of Crowder’s comment on the Catholic traditions and St. Francis.
Where are quartets, classical music, Southern Gospel in the Bible? I think that question about Christian Rock bands doesn’t make sense.
How does my teacher’s Just For Men beard give God glory? Or my mom’s color treated hair lift up Jesus? It’s not in the Bible, but big deal if they do it.
If God can be glorified by David’s adultery, or anyone’s sin for that matter, how could he not get glory by a non sinful act? (like having a pierced ear, or tattoo of jesus name in greek on my back when i’m 18!)
Joe,
If you think Psalms 51:4 says that God was glorified in David’s sin, your comprehension of Scripture is worse than your command of English.
I must emphasize God was not glorified in David’s sin of adultery and murder, He was satisfied in David’s brokenness/confession over his sins, which the Spirit of God produced in David.
Joe, I do not mean to be harsh, or unloving. I am afraid you are caught up in some unbiblical practices, I strongly urge you to weigh EVERYTHING in light of Scripture.
I do hope you will consider listening to this sermon, http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=52906154239, by Paul Washer. May God work a mighty, supernatural work in you.
How about Titus 2:6-7. Paul encourage Timothy (a pastor) to teach young men.
I think you teach me differently than you teach my PawPaw, so why not have separate classes and get-togethers for us. I don’t think everything should be separate, but some classes should.
It’s impossible for my senior Pastor to be everywhere at one time, which is why Paul told Timothy to “teach faithful men who will be able to teach others also” II Tim. 2:2.
I look at it like this
My Senior Pastor (Timothy) taught my Youth Pastor (faithful man) who is teaching me (other’s also)!
I think thats the best I can answer that question.
what does seem ironic is the fact that an apology was given not to long ago for what seems to be the attitude going on I these comments towards what seems to be a young believer. this being a site where brothers like paul washer and others are quoted, I find it hard to understand how someone has the nerve to question this young man’s salvation based on a couple sentences not mention why weren’t those comments deleted.
does anyone even have a clue what washer means when he says ″its better to have it and not know what to call it then to know what to call it and not have it″ seriously that’s not zeal or boldness, that is an absence of the fear of the Lord.
Julius, you are correct in your assessment of some of the comments made here, including mine. I humbly apologize to Joe, and to any whom I may have offended. This young man is in dire need of truth, not being attacked.
Thank you for pointing out my sin of pride.
I do pray this comment from Joe,
— will cause him to repent as well.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Let's hope he repents of his sin of dishonesty, posting under two different names and misleading others, including myself, here. He obviously did not come here seeking truth, but to cause disruption and uphold opinions over God's word. May God be merciful.
Lyn
Good point unworthy. I was in direct disobedience to Paul’s command to me. Sorry to everyone I offended.
Julius,
Do you think it’s ok for me to go to youth group even if it’s, like unworthy suggested, not a mandate in scripture?
I’m kinda confused now.
There’s some suspicious behavior transpiring on this thread.
JoeMawma’s e-mail and I.P. address are identical to that of Jason’s, yet they try to appear to be two different people, even leaving a comment to himself.
Something’s fishy here.
I think you’re right, Pilgrim.
Remember, Jason’s first comment was a high-temperature railing accusation against Habakkuk and the Wesleys, breathing fire about judgmental condemnation of the worship wars of the 90’s, sordid history of the piano, and sarcastically ascribing to us the “satanic tools used by Lucifer himself”-labelers.
He ends by admonishing us to “Get a grip!”
Hmmmm.
- Jeff H
Hmmm! i’d say busted
Praise the Lord for the responses!
As to whether or not this is jason posing as someone else seems to be an admin problem, which would be quite pitiful.
Joemawma,
whoever you are, you asked me a question and so i’ll answer it.
First it would seem odd if you’re asking for yourself since you are a little old for youth group.
Youth groups don’t work, and that because they are plan b, yet that doesn’t mean every person in a youth group or the churches that have them are in sin.
However there can be sinful motives in starting one, and in who is hired for the job.
Youth groups cater to the cultures isolation mentality, it provides yet another place for young people to avoid their parents (and any other adult oversight) which only nutures the pride and rebellion found within.
In some ways this site is enjoyable and helpful. In other ways this site cries wolf just a little too much. This is an example of the latter.
So what that David Crowder appreciates St. Francis of Assisi. Why are you sounding an alarm over this? You make this out to be an issue that is way more than what it really is. I don’t understand. In one way or another we have all been influenced by the Roman Catholics (your theology is just as much from Augustine as it is anyone else). They were the church for over a thousand years. If they are so bad why did God allow them to come into existence? I’m not saying I agree with them or their theology, but many of them are fellow brothers and sisters in Christ and their seems to be more important issues to deal with.
If you cry wolf too much, like in the story, people stop taking you seriously.
T Sheets: The Roman Catholic Church has NEVER been the bride of Christ; it has always opposed Him – more and more as the years have unfolded. Saints of the living God are commanded to mark those who depart from the Truth as a service to other sheep. Rodney King is not God.
I hate to disappoint you Pilgriam, but I have no idea who JoeMawma is. I am an ordained minister of the gospel in the Nazarene church. I received an undergraduate degree in Music Business from Trevecca Nazarene University and I received a Masters degree in Ministry with an emphasis in Church Leadership from Indiana Wesleyan University. I currently serve as a Campus Pastor at a Nazarene church in Colorado.
My initial comments on John and Charles Wesley were correct. They did use bar tunes to minister to those whom they were seeking to save. They did use the piano, which was a traditional bar instrument not found in churches until a much later date. And they ministered to a group of people who were so depraved, my guess is you wouldn’t even bother saying hello to them.
You ask, how do I know any of this to be true. Well, I did just spend two years receiving a masters degree from a Wesleyan university, but that probably isn’t good enough for you. So I’ll tell you that I took a one week intensive class on the life and times of John Wesley just last summer. During this class I actually went to England and visited many of the preaching sites of John Wesley. I also visited his childhood home, his home in London, and get ready for this………..three taverns that he frequented in various areas of England while he was on his preaching circuit. In all locations we were learning from Wesley experts who actually do this sort of thing for a living. To further put a wrench in this debate about how holier than thou some people would like to think John Wesley was, it may surprise you to know that he was horrifically mean to those around him, treated his wife horribly, and was a bit of a womanizer. So, I must contend by your reasoning that anything he was a part in creating is not and could not be redeeming in anyway. I move that we immediately stop singing any of those “great hymns” he was a part of writing.
Now, I suspect you and a number of your friends will now follow this up with more articles that perpetuate false history of methodism, Wesley and the like which is fine. The reality is we could go back and forth all day with various articles that will back up each point and counterpoint till we’re blue in the face. Sounds like fun.
On another note, those of you who like to throw around scriptures like Lev 19:28 You ’shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the LORD’. I would like to point out to you that it is Levitical law which we were set free from with the saving power of Jesus Christ. If you would like to subscribe to those laws may I suggest a few others that I doubt you are following as closely…..
Lev 7:23 Do not eat any of the fat of cattle, sheep or goats (I for one like a little fat on my New York strip steak and I eat it medium rare and a little bloody)
Lev 11:10 But all creatures in the seas or streams that do not have fins and scales – whether among all the swarming things or among all the other living creatures in the water – you are to detest (watch out for those lobsters and crab that so many enjoy)
Lev 19:19 Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed (I actually don’t have a field, but I do have a garden with lots of different seeds)
Lev 19:27 Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard. (I’m totally cool with the hair thing cause I wear mine long, but the beard thing I just can’t roll with. I like my gotee!)
And the list goes on and on and on. So unless you’re willing to live by all levitical law, please don’t throw parts of at me. Oh, by the way, I have a tatoo of my son’s name and his birthdate on my arm. I love it, I love him, and I love God. I’m pretty sure it won’t damn me to hell.
Oh and by the way I did NOT post this. May have been someone else with the same name or JoeMawma, but it wasn’t me.
Jason, is it wise to boast of your education; all the degrees in the world are nothing unless God himself instills His wisdom. No school can teach you the things of God, the Spirit is the one who reveals truth.
As for Wesley, you believe what appears to be gossip about this man’s life, here-say, etc. Is this wise?
True humility is a tough lesson, one we all need to pray to learn.
Jason,
Ah!
Did you even read the articles Aaron and I posted above?
Your scholarship of the Wesleys is just plain wrong. It’s unfortunate that you can’t admit it, but more so that you perpetuate this urban legend gossip/smear campaign.
On another topic, if you really are a victim of mistaken IP address duality then I repent of my comment and sincerely apologize to you… unconditionally.
In Jesus,
- Jeff H
I’m not boasting bud. I’m just setting myself apart from anyone who you may think is posing as me so that I’m not accused of being Joemawma.
I’ll be sure to let my professors and all of the instructors I learned from over there in England know that they are gossipers and spreading here-say.
———————————————————————-
Actually Jeff, I did read the articles you posted and had actually seen some of them when I was taking my class on Wesley because this was a topic of debate. The reality is, there are two sides to every coin and since none of us actually knew John or Charles it is pretty difficult for us to know the exact truth. I will stand by my belief, based on what I learned during my coursework and you can stand by yours.
On another note, it appears you have a problem with the Nazarene Church. Not sure why that is unless you’re a part of the fringe group of “concerned nazarenes.”
Jason, again, you base your accusations against someone according to what some professors tell you; are they reliable because they are better educated? Are educated men/women above sin, such as gossip, here-say, tale-bearing?
Do you have concrete evidence for your claims, other than what you’ve been taught?
Bear in mind, our school system teaches evolution, does that mean what they teach is accurate?
Unworthy, you fail to recognize that I can use the same argument against you. Are those magazine articles reliable. How do you know? How does anyone know? We’re you there walking with John or Charles? Obviously not. Who’s to say the history that you’ve supposedly been taught is more accurate than the history I’ve been taught.
Jason,
I am NOT defending or ripping Wesley apart, YOU ARE! You say you know, almost factually, that Wesley used ‘bar tunes’.
There is NO absolute truth outside of God’s word, so to say otherwise is not accurate. However, some myths can be dispelled by those who were there to witness firsthand.
There is no perfect man or woman, to attack a dead man seems pointless, unless your motive is to assassinate his character. That is really the key behind all we think, say or do..our motive. This can lead to sin.
I’m not out to assassinate Wesley or his character. In fact, I love Wesley and follow very closely to his theology. My point in all of this is that God can and does use man to accomplish His purposes. He can also use a man who may not have been the nicest, who may have been a womanizer, who may have been known to throw a couple beers back, who may have had an affiar (King David), who may have denied Jesus three times (Peter), etc. This idea that rock music cannot be used to glorify or worship God is absurd. The idea that God can’t use David Crowder to accomplish His purpose on the earth is ridiculous. Do I subscribe to all of Crowder’s theology? NO. Do I subscribe to all the theology taught to me at school? NO. That doesn’t mean that God can’t use those entities whether school, or a rock band, or a televangelist or a mega church pastor to accomplish His will and do good things on the earth. My problem is that groups of which you appear to possibly be associated with would like us to think that the only way you can be a good Christian is if you sing only certain hymns, dress only a certain way, see only certain movies (probably not at the theater), go only to a specific church and subscribe to only their brand of theology. The problem with this is that if that is truly how Christianity works, your group will be the only ones in heaven and it will be a VERY small minortiy of people. I just have a tough time believing that. I believe that if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is Lord and that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. I also believe that you should love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, sould and strenth and love your neighbor as yourself. If you do these things you’ll make it. I for one, look forward to spending eternity with the likes of Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wesley, Deidrick Bonhoeffer, Paul, Peter, Mother Teressa, Pope John Paul, and a host of others whose theology I may not completely subscribe to. Granted at that point we won’t care about our petty differences the way that we do here on earth because we’ll be too consumed with awe and worship for our creator. Maybe if we spent a little more time doing that now instead of arguing over Crowder’s theology we’d get to see a little slice of heaven here on Earth and it might just be a better place. Peace!
Jason, your lengthy comment was classified as ‘spam’, I have approved it.
You said, ‘This idea that rock music cannot be used to glorify or worship God is absurd. The idea that God can’t use David Crowder to accomplish His purpose on the earth is ridiculous.’
You are correct, God used Pharoah for His purpose, He uses false teachers/prophets for His purpose as well. Those who reject absolute biblical truth fall prey to men such as Crowder. If someone embraces false teachings, such as that of the Roman Catholic Church, do you think they are trustworthy?
As for rock music, what is its origin? I do not find rock music in the bible, I know it originated/ got its name from Alan Freed, a /50s d.j. Do you know what ‘rock and roll’ means?
Please, refrain from responding with a list of questions such as, ‘what about country, or gospel?’ etc. If this is your response, it will be deleted.
BTW, David and Peter repented of their sins, that’s the difference in a true believer and an apostate. Repentance is a gift given by God, you simply cannot repent apart from the Spirit of God bringing you there.
Jason,
Do you embrace Wesley’s view that man could attain a sinless state while here on Earth, prior to the New Earth? Have you read Whitefield’s letter to Wesley? John Wesley went off the reservation and it’s a pity anyone follows him and his Arminian theology.
Manfred
I do not believe man can attain a sinless state while here on Earth however I do believe in progressive sanctification with entire sanctification becoming the end result at glorification when we are made whole again in heaven. The problem with a sinless state here on earth is original sin which I personally believe there is no way to completely erradicate. Based upon some of Wesley’s later writings I would also state that he did not believe he could attain a sinless state although you could strive for “Christian perfection” As for Whitefields letter, I do not believe I’ve read the entire thing although I have read correspondence from the two of them, just not sure exactly which letter you’re referring to. Finally, why is it a pity that anyone follows Arminian theology. I don’t find it a pity that some may follow a Calvinist theology. In reality any theology is just some mans feeble attempt and completely understanding God which quite frankly I don’t believe any of us can do. I believe and hold fast to a Wesleyan theology. Does that mean it’s 100% right. Of course not, but it is a theology I’m comfortable with. I don’t think that if it is wrong, it would keep me from salvation though.
unworthy1,
Thanks for posting the comment. I was quite confused as to why it wouldn’t go through. Sorry also for my long windedness. In response to your last post all I can say is the Bible doesn’t say anything about a lot of what we deal with today. It doesn’t mention cars, it doesn’t mention any style of music quite frankly, it doesn’t mention modern medicine and all of the issues that arise from it’s use, etc. So to throw a certain genre out because it wasn’t mentioned in the Bible doesn’t make sense to me. As for what rock and roll means, I’m not sure but to me it’s just a genre lable for a style of music and quite frankly isn’t used all that much anymore. In fact in the charts you’ll see rock, country, gospel, punk, alternative, classical, etc., but never rock n roll.
As for David and Peter repenting, you are correct. They did, and my guess is so has everyone else in the list of people that I mentioned, I know that I have on numerous occasions and I would suspect you have as well. We just aren’t privy to that information about each of those individuals and what there specific sins may have been.
Jason,
It’s a pity anyone follows Arminian theology because it is – as are its forefathers of full and semi Pelagianism – considered heresy. These faulty theologies deny the sufficiency of Christ, relying on man to complete His FINISHED WORK. Salvation and sanctification are of the Lord, not of works of the flesh, lest any man boast.
Repent of this foolishness.
Manfred,
Well, I’m impressed that you apparently have figured out the only “true” theology. Based on your post I assume that you believe that I am not a Christian and am going to hell because of my theological leaning. That is unfortunate. I will not repent of this foolishness because I do not believe it is foolishness. I hope to meet you one day in heaven and at this point agree to disagree with you on arminianism.
Jason,
I don’t figure out anyone’s destiny. The Bible declares that anyone who depends on works of the flesh will fail. ALL who rely on works for ANY spiritual good will fail. Only those who are called to new life and trust in the risen Lord for His imputed righteousness and full payment of sins has new life.
It’s heresy. It denies the sufficiency of Christ. It glorifies the flesh.
Repent and believe on the Lord for forgiveness of sin and life eternal.
Jason,
The Bible does not condemn music at all, however, when we borrow what originated in the world, such as rock and roll, and slap a Christian label on it, we are serving up to the Lord a tainted sacrifice. FYI, the phrase rock and roll originated from immoral sexual behavior in the back seat of a car while teens listened to…guess what? Rock and roll. When we understand the battle is in the mind, then we see what we allow into our minds does indeed affect our thoughts, actions and speech. That is why the Bible says, ‘do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind’ Romans 12:2
Now Jason, do you believe you are saved because you chose Jesus, or you invited Him into your heart, or you repeated a canned prayer?
If so, then what do you do with Ephesians 2:1 {And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins}? How does a dead man revive his soul, to the point of being awakened spiritually to his own sinful condition? This verse says ‘hath he quickened’, or better translated ‘hath he made alive’. God is the one, according to His word, who saves. Salvation is His gift, which He gives to those He gifts with faith {Eph. 2:8,9}. Have you ever been given a gift Jason? If so, did you have to do anything to receive that gift?
Sinful human pride wants to take credit for a part in salvation, but I do not find that in God’s word.
I think you’ve got this wrong Manfred. I know full well that I cannot depend on the works of my flesh. I know full well that my only hope for any kind of salvation or sanctification rests solely in the hands of God. Apparently your understanding of my theology may be incorrect and I think your understanding of Wesley and Arminianism is skewed by your theological leaning. Seriously, agree to disagree on this one. I’m not judging you for your beliefs but it sure feels like you’re judging me based on your call for me to repent of my foolishness which I might add I believe is against the rules of engagement on this blog. Anyway, I’m heading to the gym. Peace!
Jason,
I look forward to your response to my post when you find a minute to do so. Have a good workout.
unworthy1,
Yes I have received a gift and no I didn’t have to do anything to receive it other than be willing to receive and accept that gift. I do not believe it is out of human pride that we accept this gift, but I do believe we have to play a role in salvation. Rev. 3:20 “Here I am. I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will com in and eat with him and he with me.” Obviously we have to open the door, we have to ask for forgiveness, we have to accept that he is willing to do something in our life. Rom. 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Again, we play a role, we have to confess, we have to believe, but that isn’t something we do out of pride to feel like we can take credit for what God is ultimately doing.
Unfortunately you and I could go round and round using scripture to prove our point and neither of us would necessarily be wrong or right. I just hate the pettyness of these types of arguments. With that said, I have to sign off for the night as I need to go lead my worship band (yes we play modern rock music and hymns) in rehearsal. I trust that you all will have a good evening and even though we may disagree I still consider you to be my brother in Christ. Till me meet again, or I see ya on the other side. Peace!
jason
Jason, that verse is always taken out of context. Christ was talking to the Laodicean church. Note who He was addressing just a few verses up, the lukewarm. He is speaking to the church of Laodicea; one would naturally understand He was addressing those who profess Him as Lord, those who’ve made a verbal allegiance to Him; however, there doesn’t seem to be a supernatural work of God in them, there is no ‘evidence’ of the new birth. They do not see their need for true salvation, they are blinded by deception. So, in a sense, He is addressing lost sinners; they think they’re saved, but He tells them otherwise.
I will add John MacArthur’s commentary on this passage, ‘ Verse 20 tells me that Christ is still on the outside trying to get in. So we must assume then in verse 19 that these are not believers, but God loves the world.
And I think there’s a sense in which because these people have outwardly identified with the church, outwardly identified with the Kingdom which has grown to be so massive that it includes the true and the false, as some of the parables of Matthew 13 indicate that it would, but the very fact that they go around naming the name of Christ and outwardly identifying with His church puts them in the unique sphere of His concern.
So, He says those whom I love I reprove and discipline. Could He be here referring to unbelievers? Yes. Reprove is the word that means to treat with contempt. It’s used that way in many extrabiblical sources. In Matthew 18:15 it is the word to convict. In Ephesians 5:11 it means to expose. So He is saying I love the world and I love the world enough to expose the sin of the world, to convict, to bring reproof and judgment. Frankly, it’s nothing more than a general term for God’s action toward sinners. You can compare its use in John 3:20, 1 Corinthians 14:24.-from ‘Laodicea, the Lukewarm Church’ at http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/66-15
As for confessing and believing, how is it you are able to do either?
You have neglected the scriptures I gave, both found in Ephesians chapter 2. Can you expound them please? Please start with ‘dead in sin’, then proceed on to ‘he hath quickened’.
I strongly urge you to also study Jeremiah 17:9
>><>>>>>><<<<<<>>>>>>>>><<<<<>>
When you insist God needs you to complete the salvation process, you negate Eph. 2:8,9, ‘For by GRACE are ye saved’…
You no longer have salvation by grace, instead you have salvation by works. ‘God saved me, but not without my help’ is what you ultimately adhere to. This stems from pride.
my 2 cents about Romans10:9. I think it is a reference to what Jesus said in Matthew 10:32. In that verse Jesus is talking about confessing Him before men during persecution. I don’t think Paul is talking about just giving lip service to the Lord. But it is a way of life of being sold out and willing to die for Jesus that Paul is speaking of.
I better be careful or I might start talking about Lordship salvation ; )
Dear Jason (#1, not to be confused with Jason #2 who is also JoeMawma),
You’ll have to forgive me for not properly clarifying which Jason I was referring to. I was not referring to you, but the other Jason who shared JoeMawma’s same e-mail address, I.P. address, and self-generated WordPress avatar. The same Jason and JoeMawma who have since ceased and desisted all further comments on this thread after their (his) trickery was exposed, (and all of this in spite of Julius still thinking JoeMawma was actually genuine and sincere).
This here is the Jason I was referring to. Sorry for the confusion.
On a side note, you also said:
Do you really believe Mother Teresa and Pope John Paul are going to be in Heaven? If so, what are your thoughts on Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and Charles Taze Russell? Are they part of that “host of others whose theology I may not completely subscribe to” but you expect to still see in Heaven? If not, why not? If so, why so?
- The Pilgrim
Wow. Quite a bit of discussion going on, but maybe some of it can be distilled down slightly:
1. As for the Wesleys, Jason you should — as a Christian — ALWAYS put the best perspective on any situation… assume the Wesleys were NOT engaged in bar tune writing, because that would be inconsistent with Christian behavior. You have chosen to take the “low road.”
2. You said:
Yes, I do. As has been mentioned already: Arminianism is blasphemous, because it elevates man and brings God low.
‘Poor God couldn’t save me until I did my part’… ridiculous.
Don’t try to rob God of His glory!!
If you say:
…then you are a heretic to your own church (Nazarene)… or perhaps yours is a renegade congregation.
3. You said:
Listen to your responses:
“I don’t believe”…
“I believe”…
“I hold fast to”…
“I’m comfortable with”…
“I don’t think”…
No Scripture, just FEELINGS!
THAT’S the problem, and is just a symptom of your Arminian “faith”… You’ve elevated your feelings, and you’ve brought God’s Word low!
Theology is much more important than you ascribe to it.
Follow Paul’s admonition to:
“Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves” (2 Corinthians 13:5)
God’s Word is:
“For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.” (Hebrews 4:12)
and:
“‘Is not My word like fire?’ declares the LORD, ‘and like a hammer which shatters a rock?’” (Jeremiah 23:29)
Can your feelings do that?
4. You said:
So we should just forget about defending and contending for the Gospel and let the rule of ‘anything goes’ prevail.
First Crowder…
Who is next?
Is Benny Hinn o.k. with you?
Rick Warren?
Joel Osteen?
Joyce Meyer?
Rob Bell?
Tony Campolo?
Jesse Duplantis?
Bill Hybels?
Rick Joyner?
Alan Jones?
Doug Pagitt?
Creflo Dollar?
T.D. Jakes?
Bob Jones?
Paul Crouch?
How about a muslim or a buddhist?
…or a satanist?
Anything goes?
…and you think the world is getting BETTER???
YIKES!
In Christ (alone),
- Jeff H
A bad tree cannot produce good fruit.
A blind man cannot choose to see.
A dead man cannot will himself to life.
For these impossibilities to occur, an agent of unimaginable power and will must choose to produce these results, defying all logical and tangible limitations set upon the creation itself as one who is not subject to its constraints but rather is able to subject the creation to the limitations that he chooses according to his will. One of such power would not be obligated or indebted to the creation (for nothing in creation could force this agent into compliance) and therefore would do so only for his purposes, in whatsoever fashion he chooses, if he so chooses.
Wonderfully and graciously to the redeemed, God is this agent, purposing to make known the glory of His grace and mercy, His steadfast love and faithfulness, through faith in Jesus Christ to all whom He chose before the foundation of the world. To underscore the greatness of His grace, God has raised the spiritually dead who had no hope nor ever sought Him to eternal life in the Lamb. His Holy Spirit removes a dead heart of stone from a man conceived in iniquity, who cannot enact his own will beyond the definite the limitation of his nature, which is sinful and fallen, and grants him a living heart of flesh, allowing the man to understand and to will beyond the limitations of his fallen nature, that in God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ, a new creation is made in Him through repentence and belief in the Gospel.
The main point being, the One doing everything in salvation is God. I have yet to see the scripture that negates the numerous declarations from God that all men are evil, that no ones seeks after Him, etc and that man has some little, tiny spark of goodness and understanding to enact his almost nearly entirely corrupt will (but not entirely corrupt, after all, we all know we have ‘free’ will, right?) and ‘choose Jesus’. If God did not choose to do this, no one would be saved, we would all choose our evil and pride over His glory, and everyone would be cast into outer darkness, to the thunderous applause of those heavenly beings who serve Him and love His glorious and pure perfection of righteous judgement.
God forbid I should return to the newness of my salvation a few years ago (in a sense), before I had begun to read His word, when I thought ‘I’ made the smart choice that much of the world just couldn’t seem to grasp. Christ saved me from God’s just wrath against me and then, in time, from the pride that thought I had ever brought anything to the table, even something so small as a ‘choice’.
Well said Brian.
Okay gentlemen, here is the deal. I’m not gonna play the scripture game with you. I’ve gathered that you are all quite intelligent and you and I both know that each of us can take scriptures and make them say whatever we want to prove our point. Then of course the other will counter with the argument that it is taken out of context. Next we will resort to using commentators like John MacArthur or Warren Wiersbe or a whole host of others. This will only further my point that there are a number of different theologies and beliefs on what any and every scripture says and or means. Again I will stress that I do not believe any man can fully understand or grasp God or make full sense of His scriptures. Quite frankly, if we could he wouldn’t be worth worshipping. I prefer to have a little mystery surrounding my God. With that said, let me respond to a couple things and I will kindly go back to my home and leave all of you alone.
Yes I believe Mother Teressa is going to heaven. Yes I believe Pope John Paul will be there. I also believe Wesley, Calvin and a bunch of other theologians will be there. I DO NOT believe Mormons will be there because they use a supposed Gospel that has nothing to do with what I believe we would all agree are the true Holy Scriptures.
Obviously I don’t believe Muslims or Buddhists or Satanists are going to be there. Their beliefs are in direct opposition to what we’ve been taught that no ones comes to the father except by the Son. I do however find it a bit disconcerting that you lump so many others into that category. Look, I don’t love Rick Warren, Doug Pagitt is not my hero, I don’t love or hang on every word out of Rob Bells mouth, but I’m certainly not going to lump them in with Mormons, Buddhists, Muslims and Satanists. And for clarifications sake, yes I do believe those names I mentioned will be there in heaven along with us.
Finally, I’m not telling you or urging you to believe as I do, but it bothers me some that based on what I am reading it appears that you and only those who think exactly like you will be in heaven. You have an uncanny ability to damn others to hell without ever really saying it. Maybe that is not your intention, but in our dialogue I have felt like you’ve attacked whether or not I am a Christian simply because my theological leanings don’t match up with yours. It just seems as though you believe your the final authority on scripture and on what it means to be a Christian. I for one have no desire to be a part of a body that makes no room for differing opinions. Instead I will choose to be confident in my salvation. I will choose to accept others who may not believe as I do and I will choose to do my very best living my life as I believe Christ himself would do. Not judging others, hanging out with sinners, and loving all people with the hope that maybe just maybe they’ll see a glimpse of Christ in me causing them to repent and believe that He is Lord. God bless all of you, it’s been a fun discussion and I pray that someday we’ll be able to put our differences aside and agree that Jesus Christ is our Lord, our Savior and our only hope.
A game? Is that what you think of using God’s two-edged Sword?
My question to you is: ‘WHICH Jesus?’
The problem is that if you asked each person on the list I posted “Who is Jesus?”, you would likely get answers that do not match up with the Jesus Christ of Scriptures.
Even the Mormons proclaim Jesus, but as you alluded to, their ‘Jesus’ is just a created being, whose brother is the devil. Obviously, this is NOT the Jesus of the Bible!
If one does not have the right Jesus… one does not have the father either, Jason.
So… by your logic, I ask: why read the Bible at all? You’re giving the same argument the RCC gives for preventing a Christian from owning and reading the Bible for himself.
NONSENSE!
Through proper hermeneutics… rightly dividing the Word… we really all CAN understand the Bible, and apply what it says to ourselves and our circumstances. In fact, we are commanded to do so!
God means what He said, and He said what He means!
So, Jason… you are wrong: quoting Scripture is not a “game”.
When confronted with Satan’s temptations in the desert, our Lord responded repeatedly with: “It is written…”
Would your response be: “I feel like…”, “My opinion is…”, “I choose to…”, “My desire is to…”, “I believe…” ?
Your posts are peppered with your opinions… Have you ever stopped to see what God’s opinion is…. from Scripture?
But the lost HATE God… they are not seeking Him! He is their enemy, Jason, and they are His enemy.
So, would you love them enough to TELL them about sin and judgment so that they may SEE the need for a Savior in order that they may repent and trust in Jesus?
…or will you just let them, in your silence, go to hell?
Hmm?
As the Lord told the crowd of His day: “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”
None can find or enter the narrow gate of his own. None can carry another through the narrow gate. Christ alone shows the way to EACH of His sheep and He carries us through the narrow gate and bids us walk with Him on the narrow, hard path.
As we look around and see so many who deny the sufficiency and excellency of Christ, let us be encouraged by remembering: Wide gate, easy path, large crowd – hell bound. Narrow gate, hard path, small crowd – eternal life.
Let us NOT try to comfort ourselves by gathering large crowds, but by being obedient to the One Who saved us and bids us and equips us to honor Him.
Jason,
This site is about cyring wolf. They do it often and loudly.
Realize it and move on my brother.
Nice, worldly blog you have there T Sheets…
…speaks volumes.
For all the sinners saved by the grace of God in our Savior, Jesus who is the Christ – let your heart and soul rejoice in gratitude!
You know I ran across an old box of letters
While I was bagging up some clothes for Goodwill
But you Know I had to laugh at the same old struggles
That plagued me then are plaguing me still
I know the road is long from the ground to glory
But a boy can hope he’s getting some place
But you see, I’m running from the very clothes I’m wearing
And dressed like this I’m fit for the chase
‘Cause no, there is none righteous
Not one who understands
There is none who seek God
No not one, I said no not one
So I am thankful that I’m incapable
Of doing any good on my own
‘Cause we’re all stillborn and dead in our transgressions
We’re shackled up to the sin we hold so dear
So what part can I play in the work of redemption
I can’t refuse, I cannot add a thing
‘Cause I am just like Lazarus and I can hear your voice
I stand and rub my eyes and walk to You
Because I have no choice
I am thankful that I’m incapable
Of doing any good on my own
I’m so thankful that I’m incapable
Of doing any good on my own
‘Cause by grace I have been saved
Through faith that’s not my own
It is a gift of God and not by works
Lest anyone should boast
Manfred,
Do you realise that song is by Caedmon’s Call? Which is mentioned critically in the original post?
Good song, though… I just thought that was funny. Too bad Derek Webb has kinda gone off the deep doofus end.
Jason said
This is a very, very tragic statement Jason because Mother Teresa and John Paul did not know the gospel, they did not preach the gospel and hence they did not believe the gospel. A rudimentary study of their doctrine, words and writings will quickly testify to this truth. I suggest you study this matter out as a false understanding of the gospel is deadly. A paper on the doctrine of Mother Teresa can be found here which I highly suggest you read.
Speaking of David Crowder, I by chance got a glimpse of the video he and his band did for their song “Forever and ever” or whatever it is titled. Anyway, they do it in Japanese animation and show it as a battle between an army of squirrels and the David Crowder band. To me, what does that have to do with Christ? I would ask why it is on a supposed Christian channel but then I remember that it is a more live by the world channel than a Christ promoting channel.
Dear unworthy1
My name is Matthew and I have 1 statement and a couple questions to ask you and I would love to hear your thoughts on them. I realize that you a Father in terms of your spiritual maturity and I am only a young man in mine so I would love to hear your wisdom in your answers to my questions.
Statement- I found this baffling and careless at best “Those who truly love Christ have no desire for piercings, cool dress, or any other means of trying to be just like the world.
How do you know who truly loves Christ?
Here’s why, this is my story
Im 32 years old and before Christ called me to be saved I was really into the world. I did drugs, had sex, stole, drank and took the Lords name in vain without a second thought. I was heavily into pornography and dishonored my parents constantly. I was lost on my way to a Christ-less eternity. One day Jesus in all his grace and with his eternal plan in mind called me to be His very own. He illuminated his holy Word causing my dead heart to be made new. Soon after that and I mean soon he started to change my desires to be more like his. It was nothing that I could have ever done on my own but with His Spirit I was now a new creation.
Three years after being called by Jesus I wanted to get a tattoo to remind me of the change he caused in my life. So with a clear conscience (that doesn’t make it right but it is just a truth of that moment) I went and got the word GRACE tattooed on my arm.
Fastforward to present day. I am now 32 years old and I regret getting the tattoo. I feel as though the Holy Spirit reminds me more about God’s grace than a tattoo ever could. Im sorry I got it and I feel as though it hinders my testimony sometimes but I TRULY LOVED THE LORD WHEN I GOT IT DONE! I was just immature in my faith. People who are called to be saved grow at different rates and even though I agree with you that tattoos are a sin I would never go as far to say someone who gets one doesn’t really love our Great God for in my case I LOVE HIM MORE THAN LIFE! For I was forgiven much!
Just a thought
Im to tired now to ask my questions but I will get back to you soon.
Matthew
___________________________________________________
Unworthy
Do you have an Email that I could use to ask you some questions in private?
Thanks
Matthew
Matt,
Getting a tatoo is not a sin. You have nothing to apologize for (to us or God).
The passage used over and over by so many is taken out of context (Lev 19:28). This is more about association with pagan practices than it is a modern day tatoo. Now of course we wouldn’t want to put things on our body that would be vulgar or obscene, but getting a tatoo itself is not a sin.
It’s about the heart. Always has been always will be.
It’s about the heart? Always has been always will be? Ummmm….no. The Bible clearly says that the heart is deceitful. Why get a tattoo when it is clearly a symbol of a pagan world?
I get tired of this stuff of “It is okay for a Christian to do it because of the heart and it is okay because it is a Christian doing it.”
1 John 2:15-17
Do Not Love the World
15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.
17 The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.
Matthew Birch,
Let me clear up a couple of things, first off, I am female. I too have a tattoo that I received before God saved me. I understand you getting one as a ‘babe in Christ’. The best testimony we can give for Christ is a ‘changed life’. This is a life that consists of living separate from the world, not wanting to be like the world in any way, shape, or form. I am not stating that a tattoo will cast you into hell, I am stating that a heart that has been changed by God will no longer desire tattoos, piercings, designer clothing, etc.
Why do you now regret your tattoo? I believe we both know the answer to that. I do praise God for your testimony, it is more powerful than any mark on the body! I can relate to many of the things you spoke of in your testimony.
What I see today with so many ‘youth pastors’ and ‘Christian artists’ is a desire to be relevant to the culture in order to ‘reach them’. You cannot tell the so-called believer from the unbeliever. We have forgotten what works, what changes, what convicts, what transforms…the Gospel. There is nothing else that needs to be added; we do not have to look like Marilyn Manson in order to reach Marilyn Manson, we have to give him and all who are lost in sin the word of God. Hebrews 4:12 seems to be all but forgotten, ‘For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.’…and Romans 1:16, ‘For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.’
Where does the power to transform a dead in sin sinner lay? In the GOSPEL, not in looking worldly, not in relevancy, not in any man-made effort. So many say Christ ‘hung out’ with sinners…no He did not. He went to them yes, and he gave them the words of life, then he moved on. He never dressed like a harlot, nor did he get drunk, He knew what worked, He didn’t have to be relevant with the culture.
Our desire should be to be like Christ, to be holy. Tattoos and piercings have their origin in pagan practices, is that really what we want to be associated with?
Matthew, I do believe you understand, you are, just like me, maturing ‘in the faith’. May the Lord guide you in your walk with him.
Lyn
BTW, go here, http://iamhis-lyn.blogspot.com/, you can e-mail me from there.
T Sheets- so you get to pick and choose what is ‘relevant’ and what isn’t from God’s word? Tell me, is it now okay to kill, steal, be sexually immoral, etc.?
It all goes back to the garden….’Did God re-e-e-ally say???’
I’m just curious where you guys get the idea that getting a tatoo is sin?
Where do you pull that from scripture?
David T – I’m not saying it’s about us looking within and trusting our own heart when I say it’s about the heart. I’m saying it’s about God transforming our heart so that our actions are changed because we have been filled with His Spirit. To really be able to keep the law we need a transformed heart. Isn’t that the message of the Sermon on the Mount? Isn’t that how our righteousness (which is from God) surpasses that of the pharisees and scribes?
When one takes into their mind the word of God, for example ‘do not love the world’, or Lev 19:28 ‘You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the LORD’ one understands the dangers of ‘borrowing from the world’ as well as the command ‘DO NOT’ or ‘YOU SHALL NOT’.
This is where I ‘pulled it from scripture’. Again, tattoos are associated with pagan practices; our God is HOLY, we should not taint ourselves or our sacrifices,i.e., our way of living, talking,etc., with worldliness, wickedness, or pagan practices. We are called to be what? SEPARATE from the world, not like it. The problem with the emergent/new age/prosperity/health wealth/American visible church is a total LACK of understanding the holiness of God, as well as a lack of fear and reverence.
Remember this from 1 John 2:6, ‘He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.’ Christ is our example to follow, not the world.
Show me, T Sheets, where the expiration date is on Lev. 19:28, explain and expound to me how this verse was, as you say, taken out of context.
Also, could you show me, from scripture, where God commands us to get a tattoo,or a piercing?
Also, when you say ‘heart’, do you understand the Bible is NOT talking about feelings, emotions, etc? Heart means ‘mind’, the word of God changes our thinking, which changes our actions and words. That is why Romans 12:2 is such a wonderful verse to ponder…
Lyn
Lyn, I respect your stance (and others here) on tattoos although we differ in our interpretation of this section in Leviticus (key in this verse is the statement, “for the dead”).
Why do we differ in our interpretation? For one, I bet you neglect to keep all the commands that surround this passage of Scripture. Do you wear clothing only made of one kind of material? If not, you have given an expiration date to Leviticus 19:19. You have also tainted yourself with the world. You have sinned. Do you eat meat with the blood still in it? How do you get your steaks cooked when you go out to eat? Are you 100% sure the blood of the animal you are about to eat has been drained? If not, you have given an expiration date to Leviticus 19:26.
Why is it that you can preach this one verse on tattoos to your fellow brothers and sisters but not the other laws that surround it? Your argument would lead one to believe that all of these laws would not have an expiration date, right? If you say some of them do, why some and not all?
I’ve spent a good amount of time studying the different aspects of the person using the Bible. Feelings, emotions, etc. fall under the mind of the person. The heart is the place where choice and will happen. Rom 12:2 (thanks for mentioning it) is an awesome passage because the only way transformation of the heart can happen is via transformation of the mind. God the Spirit goes through our mind to reach our heart. Rom 1 gives us the background for why we should start with the mind in transformation because it is the aspect of the person where we first strayed away from Him. I still ponder this verse and love hearing it.
Marking up your body — the Temple of the Holy Spirit — may perhaps be permissible, but is it profitable?
What does it do to your testimony?
Are you building up Christ’s Kingdom?
Are you sullying Christ or His bride with your testimony?
Have you made (with your ‘art’) anyone who looked at it react with disdain and think “Oh yeah, those ‘Christians’ ya know they’re just as worldly as the next guy… look at that thing. Did they just get out of jail? I thought they were supposed to be different.”
And before you bring a railing accusation against me, FYI my wife has one from before either of us was saved. So calm down, o.k.?
I’m just concerned that the world thinks it’s biblically acceptable for a professing Christian to apply permanent body art. You defile your body and again I ask, what does it do to your testimony?
You spend a lot of time talking about your heart… remember our hearts are exceedingly wicked — hardly the gauge a Christian should use.
It’s funny… you seem to comprehend God’s intended message in Leviticus about being separate from the world:
… but then you just wanna jump right in and be like the world by marking up your body (again: the Temple of the Holy Spirit) to defile it JUST LIKE THE WORLD DOES.
Unfortunate.
“…And then there’s those whose worldviews and doctrines send up red flags: Both Rich Mullins’ intention to be baptized into the apostate Roman Catholic Church (before his unexpected death)…”
This is a claim perpetuated by the RCC–but denied by Rich Mullins’ family. Stating such things as “fact”, though unable to fully substantiate, surmounts to gossip.
Jeff H put that nicely.
There is NO law against tattoos to the believer. ALL things are lawful but not all things are expedient.
We have the priviledge of denying ourselves that which is not withholden from us to glorify the Lord in the purity of our testimony. Sure the world has some nutty expectations that abundant life in Christ Jesus is all about a bunch of pious little rules we gotta follow. They’re the world, they’re not supposed to have godly wisdom.
It’s like smoking. No law against it. If it is sin to you, fine, weaker brother/sister in the faith, do not violate your conscience before God and the smoker should not lay a stumbling block before the weaker in the faith by smoking in their sight. But….
You know the world thinks christianity is a bunch of rules to follow (having no knowledge of sin or grace) and that smoking, by default, is one of those icky things christians have a rule against. There is the honor of Christ via our testimony and actions/words before a fallen world to consider more than our own freedom.
Is it wise (expedient) to tarnish my testimony before men just so I can smoke a cigarette, when I know the lost (and even some brethren) think that it’s an issue? Do I want to make it look as though my Lord has a Body of only ‘hyporites’ (as the world would see it)?
Is it wise when a brother/sister ‘rebukes’ me for smoking because I am ‘defiling’ the temple of the Holy Spirit to be a smart alec and remind them the physical laws were about the spiritual reality as Jesus plainly taught. It is wickedness that proceeds from the heart that defiles, not tobacco leaf smoke. But do I need to antagonize those whose consciences hold them in a tighter rein?
We need to consider several things in these issues that brethren debate.
1) Does this dishonor God or hinder my testimony?
2) Does this cause my brethren to stumble?
3) Do I glorify God in some measure, inwardly or outwardly in this thing?
4) Is this thing a snare unto me, am I a slave to it rather than Christ?
Very well put Brian of the hill people and Jeff H.
Early in my walk with the Lord, I smoked cigarettes. I remember one particular day I was at work. I went to light a cigarette, and the janitor was standing there. I started talking to him {after I lit my ‘smoke’}. I ended up sharing the Gospel with him…you know what he said? Why are you smoking cigarettes if you’re a ‘Christian? {his tone dripped with accusing sarcasm}’ I felt a sinking feeling deep within my gut. It wasn’t long after that I started praying fervently for freedom from smoking. BUT, that particular day, my testimony for Christ was shot, worthless. That man didn’t hear a word I said, he was too busy seeing my own worldliness; there was no power in my testimony.
This is why I believe worldly things, like smoking, tattoos, drinking, etc. or harmful; they weaken your testimony for Christ.
Tattoos originated with pagan practices, which is another reason to avoid them. The book of Leviticus also speaks of the abomination of homosexuality, child sacrifice, etc. I do not think it wise to throw out the whole book, just because we are now under ‘grace’. Those who love the Lord will, as they grow, understand what is pleasing to Him. It isn’t a set of rules and regulations to follow, it is LOVE for Christ that prompts us to avoid certain worldly practices. As I stated in a previous comment, ‘I am not stating that a tattoo will cast you into hell, I am stating that a heart that has been changed by God will no longer desire tattoos, piercings, designer clothing, etc.’ This comes with maturity.
I do find this statement by Matthew Birch very telling, ‘I am now 32 years old and I regret getting the tattoo.’ I see life- transforming growth in this statement.
Lyn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This statement by T Sheets, ‘God the Spirit goes through our mind to reach our heart’ prompts me to recommend this- there is an excellent study on the heart, done by John MacArthur. I recommend it to you T Sheets; you can find it here, http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/2139_Strengthen-Your-Heart?q=heart
Lynn,
Absolutely agree with you and had a very similar experience regarding the workplace. It does not matter that to me smoking was not inherently wrong. What shot through my conscience was that the unbeliever I was speaking to regarded me as a hypocrite because an unbeliever thinks we adhere to some code of pious rules for life. That’s just not a strong start.
We have to consider more than our freedom. Our freedom isn’t the penultimate flag to wave. The glory of our Master and the integrity of our testimony both rate higher than the exercising of our freedom.
Unworthy1, could you please further explain why you feel as a Christian we should not desire designer clothing? I’m a bit confused. I have lots of designer clothing, does that mean I’m a bad person?
I think what Lyn is getting at is not that designer clothing is evil in and of itself (in fact, she spoke of maturing in the faith, not a statement that wearing designer clothes is evil).
It is the purpose for which a believer desires them. If it is to flaunt self, that’s not mature, that is worldly. We’re to stand out in the world by love, faith, hope and righteous deeds that the Father predetermined we should do.
Furthermore, there is this to consider: our brothers and sisters the world over that we might help. Denying ourselves to share with them in the love of Christ. It used to be that the world noticed how the brethren loved each other. It really stood out. The brother who had more giving to the one who had less, since God is glorified in it, we are made to be faithful stewards in it, we are made to become more Christlike in it, etc.
I am no better than my brother in India being beaten bloody for his faithfulness to Christ or my brother in Liberia who has very little yet is still diligent in his faithfulness to preach the Good News. In fact, if anything, I feel like a sham in comparison to those whose faith is purified by their sufferings, who show the genuine character of their faith in Christ by them.
Should I be concerned that I am covered in the best of clothing I can obtain, or that my brother is covered in prayer and encouragement and support as God enables me to provide from what He has entrusted to me? It’s not a question of evil so much as one of maturing in the faith through sanctification. The cares of this world grow dim while the glory of the King of Glory grows brighter and ever more lovely in to my eyes.
Well said, Brian of the Hill People. Priorities and appetites change as we mature in Christ.
A benchmark that I use with myself, my family, and friends: The Bible League can put a complete copy of the Bible into the hands of a brother in China or India for $4. How many Bibles is it worth to enjoy that nice meal or that fancy car, etc. We need to consider the ultimate need people have – the true Gospel of Christ that is contained in the Scriptures.
We should pray for those faithful folk who translate and transport Bibles around the world in all languages as well as those local folk whom God has saved and who have joy in proclaiming the Gospel to their countrymen.
Baubles and beads loose their luster when we look at things from the Lord’s perspective.
Nicely put Brian.
I guess maybe a better word other than “designer clothes” would be to desire “things” more than God. Most, I said most not all, people who wear designer clothes do wear them to be seen or to make an appearance and turn heads. I buy nice clothes because they last longer. I do not desire them by any means. I’m quite thrifty and probably spend less on most of my “designer clothes” than most people spend on clothes at Wal-Mart. Maybe labeling designer clothes as an unGodly thing just adds more “rules” to follow. I 100% agree that most people wear them for vain reasons, and that is wrong.
I want for people to know that I am God’s disciple by the love I show, not by how I’m dressed or the rules I tell them.
John 13:34″A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
People are searching for love. Ask every teenage girl what she wants…she wants to be loved. If we the church are not portraying a loving spirit towards these youngsters we will lose them because the world will show them love. We don’t have to accept or condone what they are doing. How many of us would be here if it weren’t for someone showing us the Love of God? I sure know I wouldn’t be here without my youth pastor who “wore designer clothing” to fit in with us. Not once did he wear something with skulls or any representation of evil. He did it all tastefully and taught me and 100s of other teenagers the true love of God and that standing on His words was the only way to live.
Don’t get me wrong, people need to know Biblical truths, but maybe we all, me included, need to teach them more lovingly. By lovingly I do not mean watered down…the full truth but told in love not tyrantly. Does anyone agree?
Yes I agree we need to reach and show others love. I also believe the love that the majority show is not Godly love. We must be honest in bringing the gospel to others, and proclaim the whole counsel of God. Most churches consider this judgmental and harsh. In the end if Father God does not open us to the gospel and then give us the faith to believe it we won’t be saved. I do not look at Christianity as rules. I don’t do a lot of things I used to do because I am so grateful, amazed and humbled by the price Jesus paid for my salvation. I know my heart, Paul claimed chief of sinners, I think I come close. I want to know Him more and serve Him. The more I
I pressed enter before I finished.
know Him the less appealing the things of the world become. My hearts desire now is to hear. ” Well done, good and faithful servant. Yes we do need love, ask any teenage girl, or anyone for that matter what sort of love they want. It would be more in line with fairy tales or Hollywood type love.
It may be possible that they want Hollywood Fantacy style love, but they don’t know what true love is. I’m not saying don’t tell them God’s ways…I guess I’m saying in general we need to be more loving. There are loads of verses in the Bible about loving one another and letting them know us by our love. When we are telling them the word how it is we should definitely be doing it in love. Yes I know we wouldn’t tell them if we didn’t love them, but sometimes people in the world perceive Christians as less loving than the world because we are always telling them what they are doing wrong and never telling them about God’s love. We never tell them about his grace and how he offeres forgiveness if we will truly repent. Yes they need to know what they are doing wrong, but maybe it will be more efficient to get people opened up to the ideas of God by showing them and telling them of his love, then sharing the in depth message.
When we see someone all tattood and pierced up are we being more harsh and telling them how being of the world is wrong and will send us to hell, or are we asking them how their day is going and if there’s anything we can do for them? I would be much more receptive to anyone if they asked me about my day and had small talk before they started telling me Biblical truth. That is the same of 98% of the rest of the people.
I want to address some of the comments on dress, appearance, beliefs etc. mentioned on this board. A little context first:
My wife and I are preparing to leave as missionaries amongst the Cham Muslims of Cambodia. Many of the Cham men have beards, wear sarongs, do not eat pork, do not drink alcohol, etc. The women, wear at least 3/4 length sleeves, cover their heads and do most of the manual labor in the community. My wife and I are going to adopt many of these same customs as we live and work in their community. Are we legalistic? No. But as Paul says, we are going to become like these people so that through Christ’s love, many (we pray) will come become followers of Isa. Contextualization is presenting the Biblical gospel without cultural baggage. As Muslims become followers of Christ are we going to force them to change all their ways? By no means! Part of missions if taking the local culture and seeking redemptive analogies that they already practice and belief that we can use to point them to Jesus Christ. Jesus does not care about outward appearance. He cares more about the beauty of diversity in how he has uniquely created the nations of the world. Tribes in Africa have body piercings and tattoos. Do they burn them off and stop piercing their skin when they become followers of Christ? By no means! That just makes them something that they are not and distorts the gospel into something foreign. Man looks at outward appearance, but God looks at the heart.
ZS,
Amen! It has been the work of Satan for missionaries to export culture in the clothing of Christianity. As people are saved – by God’s grace and not by any man’s work – each one will be convicted of sin. Clothing (aside from some extremes) and food are not issues we need to “correct”. We need to proclaim the Gospel and provide the Word of God and pray for teh Holy Spirit to save and reform the elect.
I agree ZS. Thank you for your post.
ZS,
May God bless you for your obedience to Christ’s Great Commission. My family will pray for you as you bring the Words of eternal life, calling men out of darkness and bringing them into the Light of Christ’s Gospel.
All glory to God,
- Jeff H
ZS said Man looks at outward appearance, but God looks at the heart.
Manfred said Amen! It has been the work of Satan for missionaries to export culture in the clothing of Christianity.
Absolutely to both! That is why I have said for years that the three-piece suit has done more to keep people away from church than nearly anything else. When people look down their noses because a that person doesn’t wear “just the right” clothes, they show their own lack of humility. And who wants to step foot in a church where people are going to judge them because they can’t afford a suit?
I teach a men’s Sunday School class at our church plant in the projects in Knoxville. While I don’t walk in with my “pants on the ground,” I also don’t “dress up.” In fact, the most that I–and the fellow who does the preaching–will do is a polo shirt and a pair of jeans. Some of the people that attend wear whatever they got out of the donations to the local community center. How are we gonna look if we’re standing there teaching the poor while we’re wearing one set of clothes that cost more than most people spend on food for a month?
On the other hand, there is another (very affluent, legalistic, fire-breathing, KING-JAMES-ONLY!!) church that will (LITERALLY) turn away a person who doesn’t wear a suit and tie. In fact, one of the fellows that comes on Sundays (and every chance he gets)–a former gun-toting drug dealer–told us about the time this other church invited his father, just so long as he changed out of his overalls and put on the suit they gave him. Needless to say, the dad never darkened their doorstep.
Our focus when preparing for church should not be to out-fancy our neighbor, and we must always be careful to avoid judging people because they don’t spend enough on their clothes.
My 2¢
ZS,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and more importantly, your heart’s desire to go and serve on the foreign field. Truly the fields are white unto harvest. I commend you for your willingness to adapt to the culture you will be serving in. Kind of reminds me of the stories of Hudson Taylor!
I would like to make one comment though in response to your notes about tribes in Africa having body piercings and tattoos. I have missionary friends throughout Africa and have ministered in West Africa myself. I have spoken with people who have been saved and many of them when asked would tell you why they got the body piercings and the tattoos. Most of it has not so much to do with cultural and ethnic diversity as it does with the religions in which they are entrapped. Many of the piercings and tattoos are forced on them during initiation rites as children grow into adulthood.
Having studied cross-cultural missions extensively, I recognize as well that not all fall into this category, but many do – particularly in Africa. If you were to ask, you would find they regret what occurred before they placed their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. It is vital to fully understand the culture in which you are serving to ensure that no taboos are broken and thus cause embarrassment and in turn may hurt the cause of Christ because of poor study or understanding.
Every blessing,
The Desert Pastor
Hey Desert Pastor,
Thank you for your wisdom and insight. You are spot-on that many people in Africa do partake in rituals and ceremonies that are not pleasing to the LORD, and therefore are in bondage to curses, spiritual forces, etc. Great point that many of these tattoos, piercings, fetishes are linked to those rites.
I echo your sentiment about how important it is to understand culture; afterall, that is drives people in their worldview and perspective of the events of life. As westerners, we must clothe ourselves with humility and take on the mentality of a child (as a learner and not a knower) as we live and serve in cultures very different than our own. Only as we begin to learn and grow in our understanding (and love) of people will we be given an opportunity to see what parts of the culture could be used to point to Jesus and which parts must be modified/removed to fully serve Christ. In Indonesia, after a child is born, a ceremony is performed in part to protect the child from the evil forces and some of the forms used hold meanings that are contrary to the Christian life. A Christian couple took this ceremoney and turned it into a blessing for their child. After conferring with some Indonesia believers, they used some of the forms and introduced some others. It was an incredible opportunity to bond with the culture and take part in a very special ceremony (as rites/rituals are much more emphasized than in the west), which brought honor and praise to Jesus!
As a sidebar, isn’t it interesting how we have adopted once pagan symbols as the Christmas Tree and the practice of having bridesmaids at a wedding (to protect the bride from people with the evil eye) into our normal lives? I find this fascinating and have great hope of being able to use cultural forms in Cambodia to point to Christ.
last time i glanced at this (on my phone) there were only 31 comments-
I once again must express a little frustration at the pretended zeal expressed in the comments.
Can we all not agree that there are true believers who are uninformed concerning Catholicism? Did Lloyd-Jones charge John Stott and J.I. Packer as heretics because of their desire to find common ground (though it’s OBVIOUS they WERE in error)? I don’t know about you but I’ve come across such people time and time again, and it’s quite a long task to teach them how conflicting Catholicism truly is.
Of course that’s not to say that a ‘true’ Catholic or teacher of it, is a true Christian, to that I could NEVER subscribe because they indeed follow a different christ!
As far as the debating with Jason and yes i have to call it debating, for the tone is quite disturbing. There doesn’t seem to be an inkling of grace concerning the reality that there are many Arminians that will enter into heaven. Granted a classic Arminian does indeed profess a salvation by works, but aside from scholarship the majority of people who call themselves Arminian don’t really fit the description. Many believers say they hold to one thing, but when they testify, when they pray, when they worship they do so as a true Calvinist would!
As to dress, music, and accessories some of the comments sound more like (Nazarene-like) Christian perfectionism, there seems to be a hint of EXTREME regeneration going on here, and as I alluded to before a view which brothers like Washer, MacArthur, and Voddie would never subscribe to. Now perhaps these comments are by people who NEVER counsel downcast believers or preach the gospel to the lost OR maybe because this is a blog people feel real BOLD and speak in absolutes though in person they are much more graceful, I don’t know but we should be a little distrubed when our standards for conversion exceed Edwards, Ryle, Spurgeon, Pink, and the Puritans.
Wesley and his followers by Iain Murray would be a great read. It must be kept in mind that many ‘experts’ are men who have long ago rejected the faith and who have no desire to be objective but wish to be admired and even subvert the gospel of Christ.
blessings
Are you kidding?
Not according to my Bible!
What?
I mean really… What are you talking about?
An Arminian is really saved because they are really Calvinist?
That’s gibberish, seriously.
wHaT?
Not so. We are admonishing Christians to be separate from the world, even though they are physically IN the world.
That is just plain wise, biblical counsel.
No one here suggested that dressing differently will add to one’s salvation. That would be blasphemous.
But — as you’ve seen from Scripture — we ARE to dress, speak, and act differently than the world.
No. It’s simple:
1. Repentance: turning from sin, turning to God.
2. Faith in Christ ALONE for salvation.
That’s it.
Preaching or teaching anything else is to bring a false gospel.
The only way Arminians can come is if they leave their works at the door.
5 Solas,
- Jeff H
jeff,
i am a little resistant to answer because you ignored the bulk of what I said. in fact what I said is consistent with spurgeon, washer, whitefield, packer, jc ryle, and many more concerning their attitude towards opposing brothers in Christ.
Who are these mean spirited people?
As Washer says: there are a lot of Arminians who live past their theology but not a lot of Calvinists who live up to theirs!
that brings to mind another quote from our brother: when someone becomes a calvinist they should lock him up so he doesn’t hurt anyone!
My banner IS Christ!
I am not a Calvinist, and I am not an Arminian. I am a Christian. I follow God’s word. I do not look to another persons interpretation of what God’s word says, I read my Bible and pray. I go to church and I’m rather active in our church. Instead of focusing on religion and “why mine is right and why others are wrong” I focus on my relationship with God. Do ya’ll really think Calvinists are the only ones to make it into heaven? If so, please tell me where that is in the Bible.
And…I’m not just focused on myself either. Everywhere I go I make a point to reach out to everyone. The saved and the not saved. I don’t care what people look like, I love them.
Julius I agree…people could be a little bit nicer in here. We are all people hopefully with the same goal…Heaven as our home. Stating our differences is great, but let’s show a little love and not be so harsh. That’s definitely not the way to get anyone to agree with you or think about listening to what you have to say.
I don’t have the background really of what this site is all about or what group of Christians it is meant for – I only stumbled across it while surfing the web.
Based on the critical nature of many of the posts here, I assume my post and character will be attacked for even posting…
I only wanted to point out that it is those Christians who are so extreme, rigid and intolerant that turn people away from religion all together. I myself turned away from God for 10 years as a teenager because of attitudes similar to many of those projected on this site. I felt that if Christianity meant being so unkind to your fellow man, I wanted nothing to do with it. And then I heard other disenchanted individuals cite Leviticus as a reason to disregard Christianity and I couldn’t have been more in agreement.
After 10 years of having given up on hope and God it has been quite the interesting journey to turn around. I appreciate that Jason pointed out that Leviticus was written as law to be followed before Jesus’ death, the ultimate sacrafice. This was something I, myself needed to learn before I could ever trust in Christianity again. While I may not have the surplus of biblical knowledge that you all have, there are some things I do know. I may have left God behind for some time, but he never left me. Despite my problems and imperfections, I know that God has always been with me – he has taken care of me and ultimately lead me back to him.
I thank God everyday for bringing me back through a series of events so complex, only he could have orchestrated them. I pray every day for forgiveness for all those years that I had abandoned him. I see his presence in my life and do believe he forgives my sins. I ask him to fill my heart so that I may live better. I ask for his guidance in all areas of my life.
As I have re engaged in Christianity, begun the arduous task of reading, comprehending and living the bible, I am in awe of how sinful I truely am. Most days there are many “sin-alerts” that go off in my brain as I automatically and emotionally react to my external environment. Being more conscious of my own sin has led me to be more conscious of others’ sin as well.
My point is that none of us are perfect. We are human, and therefore we are sinners. American society, in general, glorifies worldly possessions. I guess in my mind, I don’t understand why the writer of this article is spending time attacking musicians (human musicians, therefore inherently NOT perfect and sinful) who reach out and appeal to a younger generation glorifying God’s message. It seems to me there are far greater evils to confront here on earth.
Is preaching Grace — without the Law first — loving?
No. It is not.
There has to be a combination of Grace and the law. None of us would have any hope without grace. We are all here because of His grace…His grace to forgive us of our sins when we truly repent. Telling someone how they are doing everything wrong, but not telling them about God’s way or his forgiveness and grace would be a disservice to that person.
Cassie, I applaud you for your boldness. I agree with you sister. I do have one word of encouragement for you, you do not have to pray every day for forgiveness for the years you walked away from Him. I’m assuming you repented of all of that when you came back to Him. When He forgives us, the wrong we’ve repented of is gone. Look at this: Psalm 103:12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.
Don’t live in guilt and regret, instead be thankful for God’s grace, mercy, and forgiveness!
JElaine,
And… no one here suggested doing so.
You seem to have your hand wrapped so tightly around that rock you want to throw that you’re not even listening to what has been said.
We have taken a cooler tone than John the baptizer or even Lord Jesus did, calling those in error “brood of vipers”, “hypocrites”, “blind guides”, “whitewashed tombs”, and so on.
Are you more loving than they are… or less?
I would encourage all within this discussion to remember, knowledge puffs up.
The statement that ‘according to my bible’ Arminians will not enter heaven is a dangerous proposition to make; and I do not say that as an Arminian.
yes, there are elements of Arminian theology which are incorrect. No, those judgments aren’t yours to make insofar as eternal judgment goes.
You can be 100% right, and 100% wrong.
JElaine,
I would still like to hear from you concerning your mischaracterization of our posts, and in particular, my question concerning the lengths Jesus and John the baptizer went to warn those who were in error?
___________________________________________________________________
Martin,
You are correct, and thank you for pointing out my error.
I have read through the Bible studiously as a Christian, and find that the Arminian position is untenable when confronted with the truth of God’s nature.
Arminianism brings God low, and elevates man. This is blasphemous, as I and others here have stated.
Nevertheless, my desire to be expedient is no excuse for my ham-handed treatment of God’s word or His Character.
I ask for the Lord’s forgiveness, and yours (all whom I have offended) as well.
In Christ,
- Jeff H
When did I say that you suggested this? My comment was in response to your previous post:
“Is preaching Grace — without the Law first — loving?
No. It is not.”
All I was stating was there has to be a combination of both of these. Yes people need to know their wrongs, and God’s grace and forgiveness. I think you may have misunderstood my intentions. Sorry if you did.
My comment on designer clothing was,I am afraid, taken to the extreme. I never meant to imply such was sinful, I meant to say such can be if the motive is wrong. Anything can be sinful if the motive is wrong. The heart is revealed by what the mouth says, and the actions produced. That doesn’t mean our clothes are sinful, unless, of course, our motive is.
I hope this somewhat clarifies. I pray others will not take one thing I’ve said out of context, blow it up and run with it; this usually leads to much confusion!
Lyn
Yeah, no kidding! That’s why it’s called the Gospel.
I was replying to your:
See, no one here ever suggested doing that, so why did you even bring it into the discussion.
Your whole post earlier set us up as uncaring and unloving, while you painted yourself as the caring one. In fact your whole post was dripping with self-righteousness and self-importance:
I don’t do this… I’m not that… me, me, me.
Have you left any room for God and what He commands in His Word?
Jeff, you have no idea who I am or what I’m about. It’s very hard to really get the feel for someone from a few posts. If you did know me, you would know that was not my heart to appear that way. I’m sorry if I offended you. My whole life is dedicated to reaching souls for Christ. Being in my mid twenties I know how people my age react to certain things. Yes, our generation is a little messed up. I’m thankful to have been surrounded by Christian friends and a great Bible teaching church growing up, or I would be right in the middle of all the partying. Ya’ll were sharing how you helped people so I thought I would. Is that not what everyone else was doing? It’s just that you disagree with the way I do things. Which is fine with me. I don’t need any person’s approval.
Oh and my quote that you keep reposting: “Telling someone how they are doing everything wrong, but not telling them about God’s way or his forgiveness and grace would be a disservice to that person.”
You said right before it that preaching grace before the law was not loving. I agree with you. You asked it as a question and then said no it’s not. I took that as you assuming that I tought grace alone and not law because you said teaching grace first without law is unloving. I never said I tought grace without law, and I never said and/or suggested that you taught law without grace.
The bad thing about reading someone’s response on here is the interpretation of it. One sentence can mean different things to everyone who reads it because everyone will have a different take on it, and different opinions on the people who post.
When did I say that you suggested this? My comment was in response to your previous post:
"Is preaching Grace — without the Law first — loving?
No. It is not."
All I was stating was there has to be a combination of both of thesw. Yes pdople need to know their wrongs, and God's grace and forgiveness. I think you may have misunderstood my ijtentions. Sorry if you did.;
JElaine,
Fair enough.
I was merely responding to your accusations against us:
Part of ‘defending and contending’ is focusing on why false doctrine is false. Perhaps, as you mature in your Christian walk, you will begin to see how important that is. The Bible is replete with admonishments to weed out error in the Church.
You accuse us of not being nice.
You accuse us of being harsh and unloving.
So, I was merely responding to your accusations, as I have already said.
It doesn’t matter what your intended tone MAY have been, when your words are quite clear.
Shall we move on?
We should move on. That is a great idea. I just saw that Amolsch copied and reposted my earlier comment but with errors. That is not me and I do not know who it is.
Amolsch is SPAM
David Crowder looks like a fuzzed-out, burnt Q-Tip. And in the second photo, he looks like he’s channeling Bob Marley (or Curious George). Oh, yeah – he sort of sounds like a sheep bleating when he sings.
Since the theological discussion seems to be over (good points, by the way), my totally biased comments have no biblical warrant whatsoever. He’s just one of the CCM darlings who’s riding the “modern worship” music wave until the next new musical trend comes along. Will he be as adored when his fame runs out and he’s performing at proms? Will he garner more fame when “Rolling Stone” does a special issue, interviewing him and Jennifer Knapp, to show the “broad spectrum” of how Christian music has come a long way? Stay tuned!
Dennis Gibbony,
Your comment was not approved because you attacked various posters here, including myself, by twisting our words – you did NOT use scripture to back your attacks. Your opinions don’t hold water to God’s word. Those of us who’ve responded to erroneous postings here have backed our responses with SCRIPTURE. You have chosen to take God’s word out of context, as many who defend hucksters like Crowder do, and made for yourself a ‘graven image’; you’ve created a ‘god of your understanding’. Your ‘god’ is all love, accepts anything, and would never do harm. That is not the God of the Bible.
I recommend to you this link concerning ‘decisional salvation’—http://repentandbelieve.net/category/false-teaching/
Your comments will not be approved here because the agenda you push isn’t biblical.
May God be merciful to you.
Lyn
Oh, I can’t tell if Crowder disqualifies himself as a Christian just by attending a Catholic interview nor admiring or being influenced by Saint Francis of Assissi. This post is about bashing CCM and not Crowder’s Crowded theology.
I am being puzzled by Crowder’s shrouded theology and standpoint on controversial Christian topics. But this is the wrong post to begin with.
Jess:
No, Crowder does not “disqualify himself as a Christian just by attending a Catholic interview nor admiring or being influenced by Saint Francis of Assissi (sic)”. Obviously, this post is not saying that.
But according to the documentation given, Crowder is a man who: 1) claims to be a Christian artist (which therefore implies he is a Christian, or a follower of the Jesus Christ of the Bible). Yet: 2) he credits Catholic traditions and writings (a huge quantity of works religion, and un-biblical/extra-biblical teachings and practices) as influential in FORMING his belief system. And, 3) He promotes un-biblical mysticism.
If you’ve studied and understood the teachings of the Bible, Catholic tradition and teaching, and mysticism, you’d have to say his is a pretty crowded theology.
I actually can’t believe I’m posting on this site. After spending nearly 30 minutes reading these posts I felt a little ashamed. If we all stood back and took a long view of what the world looks like today, what our youth look like it would be hard to handle. Christ has a special affection for children. Youth ministry in American today seems to represent a large boat filling with water and several people trying desperately to scoop it back out before the boat sinks. In other words it’s not really working as a whole.
The intensity for truth by all those who have posted on this site is commendable. I just want to challenge you with two simple verses. These are irrefuetable and unmistable in meaning. “…Love the Lord, your God with all your heart, mind, and soul…secondly love your neighbor as yourself.” It’s completely conceivable that if each person who seeks after God devoted every aspect of their lives to these two verses the world would change drastically. I would even go as far as to say we would see a vary glorious and color parade of Christians dancing a billion different dances down the strait and narrow path to Heaven.
God Bless all of you and I truly hope that you are able to enjoy a life defined by love and the power of the Holy Spirit.