61 Comments

Jay Bakker and the art of manipulation.

So what do you do when you’re preaching to a church full of people and you want to persuade them to believe that a sin (that’s clearly defined in Scripture) isn’t really a sin?

Well, if you’re Jay Bakker, you first go for the shock of it all then follow it up with making the congregation feel stupid. If that doesn’t work, make them feel guilty. And if that still doesn’t work turn on the tears to manipulate their emotions.

And what do you do if none of this works? If you’re the Sundance Channel you make a short video of the incident, insert some sentimental music at just right spot, and make it available to upload to YouTube.

HT: The Museum of Idolatry

61 comments on “Jay Bakker and the art of manipulation.

  1. And here’s me thinking that it was persecution for righteousness sake that I would suffer as a Christian. I need not have worried had I? What I understand from the clip here is that it is persecution as a homosexual that Christ is being glorified by.

    Does that mean I have to go out and buy a pink frilly dress to get right with God?

    Sorry for my slip of sarcastic bile, but what else does this utter trash and stupidity deserve? The narrow path of homosexuality….my oh my!

  2. Why would a Gospel church invite him to speak there, and why didn’t the pastor get up and shut him up!!!!!!!!!! Don’t they check on people they invite to their church to speak? He should have been told to leave. At least they didn’t like what he said. Another liar who claims to speak for God, they are really coming out of the woodwork now.

  3. I agree with jude, why have this man preach to your flock if they know what kind of message Jay Bakker is going to preach?
    The reason Jay, in the video they were silent is because they know it’s wrong and against the clear teaching of the Word.

  4. I’ve repeatedly asked the question: Why did Bill Hybels invite Brian McLaren as the keynote speaker at Willow Creek’s International Youth Leadership Conference this year? McLaren is a man who doesn’t believe in a literal hell, nor does he believe that Jesus is our propitiation. The Willow Creek book store is bulging with Emergent authors who basically believe the same thing as McLaren, and yet the people remain silent. Perhaps it’s the near 3 decades of non-gospel preaching that has left these generations of seekers biblically illiterate.

    I see Jay has his mother’s gift for tears…and by the way, I watched the new Jim Bakker Show while on vacation last year; he’s selling real estate again….or trying to.

  5. I agree with what has been said thus far. Why would they invite someone that was going to present a message like that? And I also thought the same thing; at least they got quiet because they knew what he was talking about was wrong; you could see it on their faces.

    Scenes like this causes me to think what would I do in a situation like this? In my mind I think there’s a difference in a matter of doctrinal difference as opposed to rank heresy. I go to an Armenian church and I don’t stand up and correct the minister whenever he says something with an Armenian bend on it. At the same time though, if he started preaching a heresy like denying the trinity I might not stand up in the middle of a sermon and stop him but I would take it up with him as well as elders, etc. Is that wrong? I mean, if your preacher starts preaching heresy should you stand up and make a scene? I really struggle with knowing the right thing to do with this. I also sing in a quartet and we travel and sing at different churches. I think as a visitor I may not have a right to make a scene if I heard something that I didn’t think was biblical. Am I on the right path with this or am I being a wimp?

  6. He tried to work the crowd and they clearly weren’t being worked. Then again the pastor can’t be that discerning to let him in the pulpit in the first place…

  7. Here is a sad, mixed up young man who does not have the Word of God as his foundation. Sure, he uses a Bible and even quotes one; but he does not know it nor is he willing to believe it and put in into practice.

    While pastoring a church, we had home fellowships in different homes. One night the owner of the home we were in started in with promoting the “prosperity gospel;” I stopped him dead in his tracks. It was uncomfortable, but necessary. Confronting heresy is always right, even if it is not popular.

  8. It looks setup to me. It looks staged. Notice the camera work. Most speakers at a church simply have a camera fixed on the pulpit and rarely, if ever pan out to the congregation. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if he has this setup for sympathy or to further his agenda on the internet to show the true church as intolerant and unloving and to elevate himself as the saint to the world.

  9. I didn’t think of that but you may be right Jay; it does look like it was staged. In a regular T.V. production of a sermon you might get an occasional glimpse of the congregation but this was set up like a simply meeting and not a grand television production, etc.

  10. I noticed the camera and thought he must’ve bought his own cameraman. If it is staged he would have been better for them to rebuke him and ask him to leave.

  11. It’s unspeakably wicked that Jay Bakker pretends to be a Bible preacher while “affirming” those who practice sin, but the scriptures warn us of men like him:

    “and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.” Romans 1:32

    There’s nothing wrong with loving those who are steeped in sin and rebellion against God, we’ve all been there (Eph. 2:3), but believers demonstrate love for others by pointing them to the truth and calling them to repentance, not by affirming their sin and rebellion.

    The former is real Christian love, the latter is the very worst kind of satanic hate.

    Jay Bakker is trafficking in pure evil, and lest he repent his judgment will be sure, inflexible, and severe; “Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.” James 3:1

    In Christ,
    CD

  12. I work in television and video production – and I think the idea that this was staged has a lot of merit. First of all, there are so many different camera angles – the odd one from directly behind Jay Bakker seems like the most “staged” angle – this angle works well for putting together a littler PR piece like we see here, but seems of little value for a “sermon” recording. Secondly – notice the close ups – we see the exact same faces in tight shots going from exuberant and cheering to angry, silent, and disgusted. Unusual for a camera man to get the exact same close shots of the same people, unless they were shot back to back with the intent of showing the contrast between the before and after. I definitely think this was a staged, produced PR piece. I think this was shot with one camera, with each set-up being staged – audience wide shots, audience close-ups, jay from behind, jay from side saying key phrases, etc. The shots you have here don’t make sense otherwise. The shot from behind is the giveaway for me.

  13. Just shows us how crafty satan is. We do serve a God who is all wise though and I thank Him for the truth as “the truth shall set you free” . Jesus Christ is the way…..

  14. This video was not staged, it was from a Documentary tv show sundance channel did about me and my church. I had no control or say over the editing or any of the production. The Video is called one punk under God.(again not my Choice) What you see is very genuine, agree or not and i see most of you wouldn’t agree and thats ok but its not ok to judge my motives (art of manipulation) This is truly my conviction and what you see is what you get. In Grace Jay

  15. Perhaps Jay gets defensive a tad too quickly, but that’s because he’s been kicked in the gut and stabbed in the back by those who were supposed to love him more than most of us could ever understand. And once again he’s taken an unpopular stand on the side of those who are persecuted by those who allegedly follow the persecuted, crucified one! Perhaps blogs like this are just proof that he’s really a follower of Jesus.

  16. I think calling Jay “satanic” is a little far. Everyone has different theologies.
    i am not sure what appearence you are talking about but as a weekly listener of Jay’s I’ll say he has helped bring me back to God. I am thankful to God for men like Jay. Without finding someone like Jay, I wouldn’t have been saved.

  17. Elle,

    Without finding someone like Jay, I wouldn’t have been saved.

    Without Jesus Christ you would not have been saved. It is the Gospel that saves… Do you have it? …the REAL Gospel?

    If so (and I’m not claiming you do or do not), you would care enough about Jay’s immortal soul to see that he is living in defiance of the Living God, preaching another gospel, and you would confront his teaching… not endorse it.

    You would pray for him that he would repent and trust in the Lord for his salvation. Jay must REPENT before he can be saved. So far, he has not.

    In Christ,
    - Jeff H

  18. It’s amazing how people defend what they don’t understand, and lash out what they don’t understand. The only defense {albeit weak} commonly used by emergents, new agers, etc. is the lack of love and judgmental accusations.
    I challenge both Elle and Matt to show us here at Defcon, from scripture, how we’ve been unloving. Then, I challenge you both to show us, again, from scripture how Bakker’s teachings line up, word for word, with that of God’s word.

    Mr. Bakker,
    As a former homosexual freed solely by the grace and power of God because of Christ my Lord, I scold you for twisting God’s word for your own intentions and purposes. You are taking a one-sided ‘god’ and preaching a one-sided message…neither of which is legitimate. This god of yours does not exist and can save no one. Your message is the typical ‘tickle the ear’ message so many flock to…God loves you. You FAIL to mention His absolute HATRED of sin, and the judgment that awaits all who do not repent.
    Homosexuality is birthed out of lust, driven by the desires of wicked, sinful hearts. ALL who continue to live this perverted life will die and face eternal wrath, 1 Corinthians 6:9 says, ‘Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.’ That passage is black and white, homosexuals will NOT enter into eternal glory,instead they will face the wrath of a God who is holy, righteous, and HATES sin. God does NOT compromise; when He spoke these words from 1 Cor. through the apostle Paul by His Spirit, He meant what he said. You are like the serpent, ‘did God REALLY say?’. To give a homosexual the TRUE Gospel, one that calls for repentance and faith in Christ alone, is the most loving act of kindness any true Christian can do. To point out the wolves who teach false doctrine and embrace perversion is another act of love, warning others of the dangers of the heresies false teachers such as yourself shows how much we do love. I urge you to fall on your face before a Holy God, cry out for mercy. You are in grave danger of the fires of hell with your doctrines of demons. Your message is not from God, nor is it about the God of the bible.
    If you love homosexuals and desire to let them marry, then you must hate God. God’s word is clear, homosexuality is an abomination to Him, a detestable thing. He loathes homosexual sin. Quit cherry picking verses and preaching a man-made gospel that appeals to the flesh; the true Gospel will prick the heart. Either the sinner will flee to Christ for mercy and forgiveness, or nash their teeth at the man of God who speaks His truth.

    ‘The Lord tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.’ Psalm 11:5
    There is mercy and forgiveness available through Christ alone for all who see themselves as they truly are, wicked, vile, without hope apart from the grace of God.
    Lyn

  19. Dear Jay
    You said in the video:

    It’s hard for me when people have been through such persecution and have been judged against all of a sudden they do not want freedom for anyone else.
    We’ve got to start living it folks, that’s why its the narrow road.

    I gather from your message that the ones you are referring to who “have been through such persecution” are homosexuals. The persecution comment I am not going to address except to state that you do well to have a greater burden for the saints of God that are truly persecuted throughout the world who have to give life, limb, loved ones and liberty for the sake of following Jesus.

    What I will address is where you implied (if I understand you correctly) that it was the church of Jesus Christ who was persecuting these individuals, and that it is these same ones who “do not want freedom for anyone else.” This statement is categorically false and while I cannot speak for individuals save myself, I can speak for the church of Jesus Christ.

    Here, it is the church of Jesus Christ, standing on the rock of his word, that desires freedom for the sodomite just as much as they do for the adulterer, cheat, thief, drunkard, fornicator, covetous person and all others who are dead in trespasses in sins.

    Yet it is you, from which I can conclude nothing else, that rather desire the homosexual stay in bondage; a slave to his/her unnatural and sinful lusts. I state this because it is you who came out in support of them and now have given your pastoral stamp of approval to confirm them in their sin.

    This is grievous Jay and a sin you need to repent of for in so taking this position you have usurped the word of God and denied them the only freedom possible through Jesus Christ. All because you do not want to hurt your friends, offend them or I assume appear judgmental.

    Yet read the Scriptures for it is the Lord Jesus who declared that , “Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.” (Jn 8:34) Those who practice sodomy are servants to sin Jay, just as is true for the fornicator, adulterer, drunker, thief and all else who are held fast in the fetters of sin. And it is only Jesus who can set them free for he likewise stated that if one “…continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” (Jn 8:31-32)

    The truth Jay that makes people free; the truth found in God’s word and not in misguided feelings. The same truth that Jesus spoke to the woman caught in adultery who was being persecuted by the Jews and within a hairsbreadth of being stoned. In reading this account you will not find Jesus placating the woman nor confirming her in her sin. Rather, what you will find is grace and mercy extended where Jesus condemned her not, and then told her “go, and sin no more.” (Jn 8:11)

    Go, and sin no more. The same words that should be on your lips to those caught in the bondage of homosexuality. For this is true love Jay, this is true concern, this is truth.

  20. The purpose of this video is crystal clear. Jay is a martyr figure for the pro-gay movement, and it is absolutely transparent that this video is designed to stir the emotions in the “christian-gay” community. Jay is seen here as a hero, one who is suffering for the “persecuted” homosexual for the supposed god-given (notice the small g) gift of being gay. When in fact, he (Jay) hates the homosexual. If Jay truly loved them he would tell them the TRUTH! He would tell them that they, along with every other unrepentant sinner is destined to an eternity in hell! No, no, no… Mr. Bakker… You do not love them… You in fact HATE them!

  21. Like I said before I am not here to defend my stance, I just don’t appreciate being called a manipulation artist by “The Pilgrim”. If you believe I am a Heretic go a head and call me one if you like but none of us can truly know or judge another’s motives. Grace and Peace, Jay

  22. Mr. Bakker,
    Your ‘stance’ is indeed manipulative. You are trying to sway others into an unbiblical way of thinking, misusing the ‘love’ word to strengthen your stance.
    We can know and judge deceptive motives, and should do so. There is a reason why the bible warns of deception; to steer believers clear of false teachers such as yourself. As for your ‘grace and peace’, this verse from Jeremiah comes to mind, ‘For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.’ This is exactly what you are doing with your man-centered approach to sin–accept it, love it, embrace it. Aaah, the trickery of the human mind.

  23. Jay’s views on homosexuality do not align with the Bible, but he is right to some degree about the way the people of this blog have treated him. There were more than five or six comments devoted to only questioning the authenticity of this video clip from Youtube, not the actual issue at hand. Also, the issue mentioned in the video (how Jay now affirms ‘gay marriage,’ not the act of homosexuality itself), was never addressed. Shouldn’t have someone brought that discussion up?

    Once Jay set the record straight that he didn’t create this to lead a lost generation of evangelicals to Hell, that it was merely a clip from a documentary series filmed by the Sundance Channel, not a single person apologized to him for making wrongful accusations against him. Isn’t part of grace and forgiveness simply admitting to someone when you’ve wrongly accused them of something? Let us not pick and choose from the Bible the sins we condemn. Loving your enemies includes loving folk who do not have correct theology, does it not?

    Luke 6:35-42

  24. What is the difference in affirming homosexual marriage and the actual act? If you approve of sodomites marrying, doesn’t that also include of their perverse acts? What is it married couples do, is it not intimate moments that bond that heterosexual couple? So does Mr. Bakker think homosexuals who desire to marry are abstinent?

    This is where the emergent/new age thinker drifts off course; it’s okay to be ‘for’ homosexual marriage, just don’t dig any deeper.

    Mr. Bakker needs to repent of his evil ways, his trying to manipulate people into ‘loving’ homosexuals by accepting their demand to marry is unbiblical. The covenant of marriage is ordained by God for a man and a woman…period. There is not one thing about this perversion that any true Christian should accept.

    Loving your enemies means telling them the truth, and calling them to repentance, just like the Bible does.

    Those who continually accuse Defcon of being unloving, or judgmental, please…argue your case from scripture.

  25. It also means admitting when you [generally speaking] wrong someone, as clearly indicated in my previous comments, and indicated in the Bible, too. You don’t get to decided what forgiveness means. And Jay was wrongly accused.

    Correct theology doesn’t mean you get to be an expletive deleted. to everyone else.

  26. Again, the gist of the video is one of Bakker condoning homosexuality, to the point of encouraging others to embrace homosexual marriage. Bakker is only worried about Pilgrim’s speaking out against his manipulative ways. There is nothing posted by anyone who oppose his unbiblical view on homosexuals that was ‘out of line’.

    Bakker alledges, ‘What you see is very genuine, agree or not and i see most of you wouldn’t agree and thats ok but its not ok to judge my motives (art of manipulation) This is truly my conviction and what you see is what you get.’
    He also states ‘Like I said before I am not here to defend my stance, I just don’t appreciate being called a manipulation artist by “The Pilgrim”.

    I find it strange he will not back his embrace of homosexuals biblically, instead, he appears to be worried about his own reputation; that speaks volumes of his agenda.

    I suggest many who defend error open God’s word and study Christ, how He spoke and taught when confronted with error. From Matt. 12:34, ‘Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.’ Who was He addressing? ‘Religious’ leaders of the Jews. Was it not unloving for the Lord to call them brood of vipers?

    Defcon defends God’s word, and uses it to point out erroneous teachings, stances, preaching. Bakker fits into all those categories. For those who defend him, this is not the site for you.

    After viewing thevideo, ask yourself this…what IS Bakker’s motive? Regardless of whether or not the video was staged, possibly to make it look like Bakker has suffered persecution [cough cough]. Nevertheless, the heart of the matter is his heretical unbiblical stance for homosexuals. There is NO getting around that, regardless of the accusations made by his ‘fans’.

  27. Notice any pattern here? Certainly you’ve seen it before when a false teacher is exposed. Sin is excused in favor of social etiquette. Offending God doesn’t seem to matter. Denial of God’s specific commands and judgments do not seem to matter either. The biggest sin seems to be exposing the false teacher for his error. And as so many defense attorneys have displayed, right and wrong, justice and morality, are irrelevant. All that matters is getting the client from paying the penalty. Even if it means shifting focus to disputes in interpretation of proceedures. If Hitler had stood trial, no doubt his legal team would have worked to throw out the case because there was no proof he personally killed any Jews.

  28. For the record Jeff and Jay, “gay marriage” is an oxymoron. There is no such thing. Marriage is defined in the Scriptures and it is between one man and one woman as decreed by God and not redefined by evil societies sliding toward Gomorrah.

  29. It’s blowing my mind how you all are ignoring what is going on. You talk about this blog being a forum for discussion and yet you shirk real conversation by actually disregarding the views held. Instead the crux of the discussion has been about the legitimacy of the video.
    Your arguments have been trite, at best, and certainly don’t follow the laws of logic. If it’s okay, let’s have cogent arguments. Even though Aristotle formulated the ideas, God still created logic and expects us to use it.

    Also, it speaks volumes about your life, unworthy1, when you’re so focused on calling this one man a hypocrite that you cannot see how hurtful some of awful things that have been said about him. (“I see Jay has his mother’s gift for tears” – his mom is dead, it hurts to lose your mother, no matter what.)

    If you watched the entire documentary series, “One Punk Under God” (as filmed for the Sundance Channel), you would see how painful it was for Jay to watch his mother pass on. You will also see how much studying Jay did and how he came to this decision about homosexuality and gay marriage. Context context context. He isn’t a martyr for a movement; he’s just a guy trying to understand the Bible and the world he’s living in, just like you and me. So, he’s wrong, how does that impact your life? Let him be wrong.

    And even though DavidW’s comment isn’t quite reductio ad Hitlerum, there always seems to be a Hitler argument in these nonsensical debates. It’s borderline reductio ad absurdum, though.

  30. Jeff Watkins:

    You apparently missed my whole point. I’m not comparing Jay to Hitler, but to give an example, using a well-known personality, of the process of shifting focus, in reference to common legal practice, which your arguments increasingly resemble.

    You judge those here by saying “you shirk real conversation by actually disregarding the views held.” Yet, that is exactly what you have been doing. The views expressed about homosexuality brought up here you seem to have shirked. And you’ve called those here expletive deleted. . You have been unkind, unloving, and abusive to those here.

    Unworthy1 and brother Michael have attempted to give appeals from Scripture how Mr. Bakker is teaching falsehood to unsuspecting individuals. Yet you ignore all scriptural references given, and continue to attack those here who are attempting to tell you, and Mr. Bakker, what God has said in His word.

    “So, he’s wrong, how does that impact your life? Let him be wrong.” Here you admit the man is wrong. At least we’re in agreement on that. But he’s not wrong about how he conducts his own affairs, that’s his business. He’s wrong about the God Whom I serve, and telling others false things about he God Whom I serve. And that makes it my business.

  31. DavidW, I very much understood your point. That is why I commented with what you said “wasn’t quite reductio ad Hitlerum.” In debates, it is virtually meaningless to argue any case from a ‘Hitler argument’ because they all turn into rubbish (i.e., Hitler painted, thus painting is bad). That is the fallacy I was pointing to, not accusing you of.

    You also claim: “You judge those here by saying ‘you shirk real conversation by actually disregarding the views held.’ Yet, that is exactly what you have been doing. The views expressed about homosexuality brought up here you seem to have shirked. And you’ve called those here expletive deleted. You have been unkind, unloving, and abusive to those here.”

    Pardon me, but the first thing I posted when I stumbled across this blog was, “Jay’s views on homosexuality do not align with the Bible, but he is right to some degree about the way the people of this blog have treated him.”

    I actually defended truth firstly, then defended Jay’s treatment. And you’re right, I wasn’t kind. But, I didn’t actually call anyone an expletive deleted. It was a general statement. Matter of fact, I said expletive deleted. which does denote the same idea without being terribly vulgar. I suspected that most readers would be sensitive to that type of thing, thus I censored myself. It’s a true statement, though. And, you didn’t bother to actually examine the statement in question but overreact to what you suspected to be an irrational, retaliatory comment on my part.

    As per my prior statement, I’ll just say I’m well aware of God has said in the Bible.

    “He’s wrong about the God Whom I serve, and telling others false things about the God Whom I serve. And that makes it my business.”

    Perhaps it is our business. But, today, things were handled wrongly.

  32. DavidW / Jeff Watkins,

    No more vulgarity – even “sanitized” versions thereof. Such conduct is not becoming to Christ, and it is unsuitable for DefCon.

    Consider this your first and last warning – breach this rule and get permanently banned. I wouldn’t normally interject myself into a thread in this manner, but I am appalled at your filthy talk, and I trust the regular DefCon blog administrators and contributors are in support of my admonition.

    In Christ,
    CD

  33. As long as you stand on the very truth that gay marriage is sin, then Jeff I agree with you. Be mindful however of the entire Emergent Movement –

    It is rank, heretical and Jay is right in that mix.

  34. I will go even further to say that by standing in a pulpit and claiming to be a messenger of God, Jay Bakker mocks the true God of heaven and fully endorses the homosexual agenda all for the sake of what he calls love.

    The fact is that the agenda of the homosexual agenda is the capture of the minds this generation and in particular that of young people. Homosexuals can not procreate so must gain more supporters and followers, and this is often done by preying on the minds of our children.

    Of course, the homosexual will say that it is wrong to equate them with pedophiles. The truth though is that groups like NAMBLA and others are the logical outworking of a lifestyle that perverts the intimate act which is given by God and is to be ONLY between one man and one woman who are married. Period.

    Or how about the agenda of the ILGA (International Gay and Lesbian Association) which wrote in 1985, “young people have the right to sexual and social self-determination and that age of consent laws often operate to oppress and not to protect.”

    Go to Europe and find the “progressive” nature of what is going on behind not-so-closed doors any more. Groups headed by homosexuals and their supporters actively seek to LOWER the age of consent for sex for both male and female to 12! Why? Because once you progress down the path of that which is illicit, the thrill is not enough. You have to go towards that which is even more depraved. The world will never be able to contain the depravity that is desired by those who continue into a debauched lifestyle. By the way, the ILGA is now a consultative group for both the European Commission AND the United Nations.

    And here is a question for those who follow such a lifestyle – would you be willing to share for the record that you will endorse other practices to be fair to those who “love” outside the bounds of established behavioral patterns? Polygamy, polyandry, bigamy, etc??

    Jay is not a true follower of Christ any more than any other who choose to live a perverted lifestyle. He is disingenuous at best as he seeks to convert others to accepting what God hates. It really does not matter whether the video was staged or not, he spoke what was on his heart. And as Jesus Christ said, “Out of the heart proceeds evil.” (Matthew 15:18-19)

  35. Dear Defcon administrators and readers:

    I sincerely apologize for an offensive word I used in my last post. And I seek your forgiveness. Thank you admin for deleting the word. It won’t happen again.

  36. DavidW,

    Thank you for your humble response. Your apology is accepted. You have added much to the conversations in the past, we trust you will continue to do so.

  37. Please note that it is more important for DavidW to stay in this site’s good graces than it is to offer a word of apology to me for wrongly making accusations that I did not stand behind truth.

    That’s why you guys don’t get it.

    Also, an expletive is just a word. It depends on context; that’s why ‘bloody’ is something altogether different in England and means very little to Americans.

    [I wonder if they'll censor that?]

    Grow up. I mean it. In life and in Christ. A profane word is not sending someone to Hell. One’s sin nature and disobedience to God rightly justifies punishment–that’s what makes grace so amazing. But even if someone cusses, it doesn’t mean he/she is not of the elect.

    Sheesh.

  38. Jeff Watkins:

    I do not consider myself to be in the “good graces” of this site. Out of true Christian love, and faithfulness to God, Coram Deo rightly chastized me, for which I am grateful. It shows Who they truly serve. And the Desert Pastor kindly forgave me, as the Lord forgives all who repent, again, displaying the character of true children of God. These are fair, Godly men and women who seek to honor the Lord Jesus in ALL things (even purity of language), and they are each one of them far more mature in Christ than I. Wiser, too.

  39. Jeff Watkins,
    your biblical illiteracy is shining brightly. As for profanity being ‘ok’ with God…wrong.
    “Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers.” Ephesians 4:29
    Corrupt, from the Gr. sapros, which means of poor quality, bad, unfit for use, worthless. Profanity is not found in Holy Writ as fit for use, nor should it be fit for use in any born from above Christian. As usual, your view is not supported by scripture, and yet, you claim to be a follower of Jesus. I have no doubt you are, it’s just that your ‘jesus’ is not the one we find in the Bible.

    Your claim that ‘I’ll just say I’m well aware of God has said in the Bible’ seems to be untrue, for you cannot comprehend the sin of cursing. You simply do what so many others do, you make God’s word say what you want it to say, and ignore parts that point to sin in your life.
    Here is another verse for you to bury deep within your heart so you might not sin against God, ‘But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth.’ Col. 3:8
    ‘filthy language, translated from Gr. aischrologia
    meaning foul speaking, low and obscene speech.

    So, when you say ‘Also, an expletive is just a word’, God’s word proves you to be a liar.
    May He bring you to repentance

    I will also address your statement, ‘Instead the crux of the discussion has been about the legitimacy of the video.’ This is not true…out of the 39 comments posted, only four have questioned the legitimacy of the video. Since Mr. Bakker condones homosexuality, why not question his honesty and integrity?
    How about your own honesty and integrity? You say, ‘Pardon me, but the first thing I posted when I stumbled across this blog’, did you just happen to come here, and just happen to find this post on Bakker, or, did someone steer you here?
    You have also stated, ‘Also, it speaks volumes about your life, unworthy1, when you’re so focused on calling this one man a hypocrite that you cannot see how hurtful some of awful things that have been said about him. (“I see Jay has his mother’s gift for tears” – his mom is dead, it hurts to lose your mother, no matter what.) Would you argue your case from scripture, and not from your own personal opinion? ‘The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked, who can know it?’ Jeremiah 17:9 This verse tells us why we should never speak using our own wisdom as a defense.

    I have proven, from scripture, this man is a heretic. I must ask, are you claiming that I made the ‘mother’s gift for tears’ comment? I never said such a thing. I do recall his mother being an advocate for homosexuals…I guess the apple does not fall far from the tree. Scandal has followed this family for years, Bakker has drawn criticism because of his unbiblical stance on homosexuality. He may be popular with the masses, but, God is the one he should be serving and seeking to please.

  40. Jeff Watkins,

    Skimming through your blog I’d say this conversation is the least of your concerns.

    Leave it at that. Go seek Him in His fullness and grace.

  41. Dear Jay Bakker,

    Sorry for taking so long to get back with you but I’ve had narry a moment to get on the internet, let alone have the time to read the comments and respond.

    Now I am going to “judge” you here, so brace yourself. I am “judging” that you are telling me the truth and that the video production was out of your control. So to clarify for the readers, I have reworded the original post to better reflect your account of the source of this video. And if the original post led to any confusion on the part of readers, and/or cast you in an unfair light, then for that I truly apologize.

    There’s enough wrong with the theology of the modern American church, the Emergent church, and the pro-homosexual movement within both said churches, that I certainly do not need to lie, purposely misrepresent, or skew the facts. Again, if the original post caused a misrepresentation, I am sorry.

    Now with that said, I want to encourage you to be honest as well. You know very well that the entire pro-homosexual movement is where it is today because of its finely orchestrated manipulation of an entire generation of people. So successful in its manipulation in fact, that it’s now working within the walls of many churches. (For more on the pro-homosexual movement’s success, I strongly encourage DefCon readers to check out David Kupelian’s book The Marketing of Evil.)

    Jay, you also said:

    If you believe I am a Heretic go a head and call me one if you like but none of us can truly know or judge another’s motives.

    Since this post has been Tweeted on Twitter, it’s amazing how many sympathizers have weighed in with their “don’t judge” and “you’re not loving” comments (amazing, but not unexpected as this is a common tactic to put others on the defense). So you know very well that if I called you a heretic (like you suggest) it would only create more distraction from the real issue: the fact that you’re preaching a sin-tolerant gospel which is “another gospel” and which makes you anathema. Galatians 1 is very clear on this. Additionally, it is blazingly obvious what your “motives” were/are, Jay. Are you seriously suggesting you can openly advance the homosexual agenda and when someone recognizes it you can claim that no one can know your motives? Come on. If you really believe this they it can be equally argued that you do not know my motives for this original post and any criticism from you would then be “judging.” (See how ridiculous this can get?)

    If you really wish to rest on this argument, then tell me Jay, what exactly were your “motives” when you did what you did at that church, preaching about what you did, with the documentary production team all around you, and knowing that it was going to be used in the documentary?

    —–

    Dear Jeff Watkins,
    You have officially overstepped your bounds and overstayed your welcome. Your final comment was the last straw and is, well . . . your FINAL comment. Your snarky comments about DavidW’s “good graces” and you personal insults like “Grow up. I mean it. In life and in Christ” have revealed the true you who was so desperately trying to hide behind a neutral facade all the while craftily distracting this thread from the real issue. If only you had as much fervent passion to call Jay on the carpet for preaching another gospel as you did because 4 out of 39 comments were suspect of the video.

    If you have any questions about the decision to show you the door, please refer to our Rules of Engagement for further explanation.

    —–

    To everyone else, I wanted to bring attention to a spot-on comment that may have been overlooked during all the interference being run by Jay sympathizers. The comment was from Sergio on February 8th. It captures the essence of this whole matter:

    The purpose of this video is crystal clear. Jay is a martyr figure for the pro-gay movement, and it is absolutely transparent that this video is designed to stir the emotions in the “christian-gay” community. Jay is seen here as a hero, one who is suffering for the “persecuted” homosexual for the supposed god-given (notice the small g) gift of being gay. When in fact, he (Jay) hates the homosexual. If Jay truly loved them he would tell them the TRUTH! He would tell them that they, along with every other unrepentant sinner is destined to an eternity in hell! No, no, no… Mr. Bakker… You do not love them… You in fact HATE them!


    Hit the nail on the head.

    - Pilgrim

  42. The Pilgrim,

    You ever notice what happens when you hit too close to the truth or seek to reveal the agenda of wickedness that those in those camps either ignore you or attempt to spin off into other areas.

    My comments have still not been addressed either on this post or any other particularly in regards to the homosexual agenda.

    Maybe those who live and seek to perpetuate such a wicked lifestyle think that by ignoring it, the problem of truth will just go away like vapor in the noon-day sun!

  43. Advice for J. Watkins, re-read this warning. This was posted by blog administrator, Pilgrim, for you…

    Dear Jeff Watkins,
    You have officially overstepped your bounds and overstayed your welcome. Your final comment was the last straw and is, well . . . your FINAL comment.

    Your latest comment was sent to cyberspace for trash pick-up. Any further posts by you will meet the same fate.

    After a brief visit to your blog, it is clear your greatest need is for the grace and mercy of God to save your lost, dead in sin soul. May He draw you to the Christ of the scriptures, may He crush you under the weight of your sins, bring you to repentance and regenerate you.

    BTW-trying to post on my blog will not work either. All postings by you will be rejected. I do applaud your determination, albeit driven by ignorance. Your false accusations are most pitiful, you desperately need to seek the Christ of the Bible.

    Lyn

  44. I think here’s the bottomline…

    1. God is unchanging… 1 samuel 15:29, Mal 3:6, James 1:17, Psalm 102:25-27, Hebrews 13:8 among many other verses proves this.

    2. Therefore if we can agree then that God is IMMUTABLE…. Then it proves that God is faithful. and true that He is FAITHFUL to His Word… Matthew 24:35, Isaiah 55:11; Psalm 18:30

    3. Then! One can agree that God stands by His word..specifically Leviticus 20:13; 1 Cor 6:9-11; Romans 1:26-28, etc.

    Conclusion:
    Matthew 24:35 says “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.”

    There is no room for man to justify this sin!

    It was an abomination then, it’s still an abomination now.

    PS.
    I know i’m preaching to choir…again..

    Glory be to God!

  45. Jay says this was not staged. But then goes on to relate how it was shot for a documentary. I have yet to work on a documentary that does not stage things. I think what he said reinforces my point – this was a big Hollywood production – not a videotaped sermon which explains why there were so many camera angles, the CU before and after reaction shots, etc. It was a set-up! Just like “Reality TV” – it ain’t real. It was orchestrated. Whether or not the reactions were genuine we cannot determine, but it was a staged production – thank you for confirming Jay!

  46. Jay Bakker is simply NOT a disciple of Christ is all. He sidesteps into that phony “you can’t judge (aka know) my motives”. LOL. Same line Todd Bentley and his ilk love to quote. Funny how they both love to follow the WORLD’S fads ie body mutilation. Jesus haad a lot to say about denying the world and insstead following HIS rules! Sadly, Bakker (rhymes with faker) has followed his weird parents’ patterns of prying $ out of Christians’ pockets.
    Jonh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on Him, IF you continue in My word, THEN are you My disciples indeed.”

  47. I’m sooooo glad I stumbled upon this site. After seeing Jay Bakker’s interview on T.V. last night, I was so disturbed and troubled, not only from what I heard from Mr. Bakker, but also from the interviewer, Don Lemon’s, affirming comments and head nods of approval http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbVAVy5pWE0. I was disturbed at first, but then the Holy Spirit brought a scripture instantly to my mind “Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed–the one who brings destruction” – NIV, “Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,”- NASB. 2 Thess 2:3. Jesus IS coming. I guess Jay Baaker and Don Lemon think that Jesus came to earth for no reason at all! Why did He need to come in the form of man, suffer at the hands of His own creation, and die a cruel death, if sin is not exceedingly sinful, and Hell is not real nor our certain destination if we fail to accept His ONE and ONLY remedy for that sin! Romans 7:13 says “Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become UTTERLY sinful. I am praying for peace. I am praying for Jay Bakker to come to a SAVING KNOWLEDGE of Jesus. The hour is near, and the days are growing darker! John the Baptist prepared the way for Jesus to come the first time. That same spirit, the spirit of Elijah needs to prepare His way DAILY in this present dark age. The age when wrong is right and right is wrong! The age when consciences are seared. Help us Abba. Pray for us Lord. Come Lord Jesus. Your children need you now. I need to ask Jay Bakker, Don Lemon, and all others who think in their heart of hearts that there is no right or wrong, no Hell, and probably don’t even really believe there is a God, nor BELIEVE God – What do they consider to be sin? Is there something that you consider wrong? Can you please answer that for me? Jay Bakker’s father was in prison for a time, and now Jay Bakeker is in prison. Why do I say this? Because as King Jesus said all who sin are a slave to sin. Help us Lord to be salt and light in a dead and dying world. Please help us. The GREAT apostasy is alive and well on planet earth! Men who seek the approval of man, rather than the approval of God are reigning supreme. What do you consider as sin? Where is the standard? Jay Bakker doesn’t read the Bible. That’s not a judgment, or a criticism, but an apparent fact. If he does and says he does, he’s just plain blind or crazy then. I don’t know what version he could be reading! Maybe the “Message” version.

  48. One does not have to know the motive, nor is it even relevant when one sees a crime or travesty taking place. The same is true for harmful religious teachings. Adults should not have to hide behind such veiled defenses. The victim of heretical teaching is a victim, regardless of motive, and any church leader should have the guts and courtesy to not utilize arguments that I chide my 8th grade students for using.

  49. Jeff,

    I am afraid you err in your view of the Scriptures. You cannot take a different stand than God does on the issue of abomination such as homosexuality and still claim to be a believer that is producing fruit. The Bible makes it clear that there is woe and judgment on all those who call good evil and then call evil good. Jay Bakker is under the wrath of God and will undoubtedly spend eternity in hell if he does not repent and confess his sins before a holy, righteous God. When we are truly redeemed, we become a new creation in Christ. This disqualifies Jay from claiming to be a true believer in Christ. In addition, I would caution any reader to remember that not only will homosexuality bring condemnation in hell for those who do not repent and place their faith in Christ, but Revelation reminds us that condemnation is also in store for all those who support or endorse those who practice such abominations.

    To conclude, yes, we are thankful for grace, but it is not cheap or easy grace. Grace changes the heart of man and brings him or her to the point where we are in agreement with God about our sin.

  50. Humor the one in err…where in Revelation does it say we’re guilty of sin if we don’t condemn homosexuality?

    I agree grace isn’t cheap or easy and I think it makes grace even more powerful when it covers the sins we commit in trying to love one another.

  51. Jeff,

    My apologies, I was actually thinking of another comment on another post when I typed in Revelation. I meant Romans – chapter 1 vs 32 to be precise – “Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”

    Revelation 21:8 continues, “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” This simply means that those who are not only sexually immoral but those who would say that God’s Word does not condemn such sin will find themselves in the same judgment.

    Grace is perfect as it comes from God, and yes, it does provide pardon for those who confess and repent of their sins. Grace does not cover the willful disobedience and continued living in abomination that some choose to do as they enjoy living in the flesh and are wholly and totally apart from a holy, righteous God. Grace does not become more powerful because somebody commits a sin trying to “love” another in a manner that is condemned as an abomination before God.

    Therefore, not only is Jim Bakker wrong and stands opposed to God and His Word, but so is his son, Jay. Both have disqualified themselves from ministry, and certainly do NOT evidence any fruits meet for repentance.

  52. Had I not been subscribed to this thread and gotten a notification that there was another reply, I wouldn’t have even remembered about this entry.

    thejunglemissionary, thanks for entering in a peaceful, albeit disagreeable, discourse. If you read the entire thread, I don’t think there were many people who responded to my previous posts with such thoughtfulness. Sincerely, thanks. Back on topic…

    That Revelation verse is clearly about the lost, so I don’t see how it applies to someone who claims Christ yet sympathizes with the unbeliever.

    Romans 1 is a better example of God’s wrath against sin, but again, it’s primary application is to the lost. Paul is writing about general revelation and God’s wrath to which are the main foci of that chapter. I still see it as a directive to the lost and not the Christian who’s views on issues like this our wrong.

    I agree Bakker stance on this and probably a number of other things are wrong but I don’t think he’s dead in sin because of it. He’s got plenty of fruit to show he’s received the grace of God.

  53. Jeff, this is not an issue that Christians are free to agree to disagree anymore than we can on abortion being murder. The standards are set and established by God, not by man. Therefore, all the wrangling by so-called Christians and the passing of laws defining a new morality contrary to Scripture is baseless because it does not match up with Scripture.

    Yes, these passages are dealing with the lost, but Scripture makes it very plain that a true Christian is not just one who has been forgiven, but has also been changed. A true believer agrees with how God sees man – totally depraved. If Bakker has no problem endorsing or affirming his son, then according to the Scriptures, neither if them can be a true believer. All the fruit they are seen to produce is nothing but filthy rags of self-righteousness.

  54. I don’t recall one having to have all of their theology and philosophy straight before coming to faith. Correct me if I’m wrong (don’t, ’cause I’m not), but isn’t that part of sanctification?

    Also, referencing Isiah to say their fruit is filthy rags…man, pretty sure the prophet says all people’s attempts at righteousness (saved or not) is like filthy rags. Check the context.

  55. “Humor the one in err…where in Revelation does it say we’re guilty of sin if we don’t condemn homosexuality?”

    Not Revelation, but Isaiah:
    Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

  56. Pretty sure Isaiah is addressing a specific issue of immorality, but certainly that is applicable to today. Yet, don’t know if context would lead it to be applied to the current topic.

  57. It isn’t directly connected to any sin in context, it’s a general statement (among several others) of Israel’s pride in their wickedness.

    Of course it is directly applicable. Who thinks that God would say it is ok to call things that are evil good, and things that are good evil? Does anyone think a holy God would shrug, and say, “Oh, that’s cute, he says just the opposite of what I say about that”?

    It is exactly what happened here. He condemned people for agreeing with what God said, calling them persecutors. He’s not only called evil good, but he’s called their good evil. And you know what? He knows what the Bible says. He’s not stupid. It’s pretty hard not to assume he’s intentionally doing what he is doing.

  58. “Does anyone think a holy God would shrug, and say, “Oh, that’s cute, he says just the opposite of what I say about that”?”

    Trying to imagine our God saying that, I admit, was humorous. Or me trying to imagine how God would audibly say it.

    Nevertheless, I get your point. Still, I don’t think being accepting of someone’s sin is a sin itself in that we say we think it’s wrong but let them be free do as they will (which happens regardless). I just want to give him the benefit of the doubt first before I cast stones, ya know?

  59. Jeff, for some things there is no “benefit of the doubt.”

    He’s not just turning truth upside down, he’s perverting marriage. Marriage is an illustration of God’s love for us. We see it over and over again in Scripture. It’s not something we can just play around with.

    God is very, very different from us. That is part of the reason He made marriage to be a union of people who are different. He could have made men and women identical. He made difference intentionally, not just for our pleasure, but also to reflect that His love for us brings us into a spiritual union with Him. It’s only a shadow of the great reality, but to mar it dishonours Him. That’s what Jay has done here, in addition to the other problems.

    Sorry, I’ll give no benefit of the doubt for that. There’s no doubt that what is portrayed in that video is abhorrent to God.

    But I will say this. There are comments in this thread which should have no place in the hearts and minds of Christians. We don’t have to indulge in some of the idle speculation and uncharitable words here. What he said is bad enough, we don’t have to make it any worse.

  60. “But I will say this. There are comments in this thread which should have no place in the hearts and minds of Christians. We don’t have to indulge in some of the idle speculation and uncharitable words here. What he said is bad enough, we don’t have to make it any worse.”

    This is probably the fairest thing I have read on Defcon. The original thread went from speculative to just plain gossip. I never said Bakker was right in his stance, just that he wasn’t secretly trying to overthrow Christianity. Thanks for your reasoned response.

  61. Jeff, I wouldn’t exonerate him of that charge, but we need not make the charge, either. To try to decide if he is fully deceived or willfully wrong is unprofitable speculation. It could be either, and it wouldn’t matter either way. The substance of the words, and what it means for whether he should be accepted as a Bible teacher, is appropriate and the exact kind of thing we are told to judge. We’d do well to do that, and stop with that. God will take care of the rest.

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