The peddler of false assurance.

Recently my grandfather was in the hospital for a week (it was looking pretty serious). On one of my visits to the hospital with my grandmother present, a nice white-haired man in a dress shirt and a tie entered the room. He introduced himself as a Eucharist Minister (I saw where this was going).

He was “doing his rounds” throughout the hospital visiting those who listed themselves as Roman Catholics on their intake papers and wanted to know if my grandfather wished to take (the heretically distorted version of Rome’s) holy communion. Of course both my grandparents were anxious to do so and stopped their profanities, taking of God’s name in vain, and all their other pet sins long enough to be good Catholics for a moment in the presence of such a holy man.

This man asked if we were all Roman Catholics and after my grandparents said yes, I said, “No, I’m a Christian.” Immediately realizing that his response was inevitably going to be “we’re all Christians,” I cut him off before he had a chance to tell that lie and I added, “Protestant,” for clarification.

My grandfather jokingly replied, “We won’t hold that against you.And of course this stranger representing Rome agreed, confirming they don’t hold anything against anyone. (How kind of him.)

Because challenging this man in front of my grandparents would do more harm than good, I bit my tongue. He then wasted no time as he leapt into ecumenical action requesting that since we were all Christians “let us pray to God together.”

I stood and watched as this man who knows nothing about my grandparents, their lives, their sins, their struggles, or even their current relationship with God, blasphemously stood in the place of the Lord Jesus Christ as their mediator and prayed for them to be forgiven of their sins.

And what sin of my grandparents did this stranger clairvoyantly hone in on as their biggest sin, requiring special emphasis and forgiveness from? Why, none other than their needing to be forgiven of their sin of not realizing how close God is to them and that God is near to them at all times.

After this feel-good prayer of pseudo-repentance while avoiding the real issues of their sin nature in all its abhorrent wretchedness and hostility toward God, we were now ready for communion! (If only the hospital was this quick with their formalities before moving on to administer care and medicine.)

The man then reached into the pocket of his slacks and pulled out a round object. It was very similar to an Altoid tin. This man then opened the lid to reveal a bunch of white squares resembling Chiclets gum. He removed one of the squares, and holding it between his two fingers, held it in front of him so that my grandparents could see it. He then presumptuously announced, “This is the Lamb of God.” I could endure no more and removed myself from the room with an exhale that I’m certain he heard.

This false teacher peddling his false assurance had the audacity to call a little piece of food the very Lamb of God; what utter blasphemy. Yet my grandparents clung to every word of this fork-tongued tool of Satan, and now had clean consciences to continue about their normal lifestyles of rampant and impenitent sin.

Sadly, late at night while I sat alone by my grandfather’s bedside trying desperately to convey the gospel of Jesus Christ to him (Law first), he remained completely averse to it. After all, the nice priestly mediator already prayed for him and he took communion, so what need does he have of a propitiation for his sins?

Not even his brush with death that put him in the hospital could rouse him from his spiritual slumber. My grandfather opined that God understands that he’s just a human, and with a nice condescending pat on my arm he assured me that all will be well . . . all will be well.


“They have healed the brokenness of My people superficially, Saying, ‘Peace, peace,’ But there is no peace.” - Jeremiah 16:14


96 thoughts on “The peddler of false assurance.

  1. Joanne says:

    Dear Brother,

    I’m sorry to hear about this situation with your grandparents. I too was graciously delivered by my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ out of the RC church. My family is still blinded to the truth. My husband and I have shared the Gospel message with them, and they responded with anger and resentment. All we can do is speak the truth in love and continue to pray the Holy Spirit will soften hardened hearts and open blinded eyes!

  2. Wade says:

    This is sad and I’m sorry you have to endure this for it has to be very difficult to say the least. Your grandfather sounds like he is content with the way things are per the assurance of the false teacher, etc. I remember our last minister use to say that one of the hardest people to minister to is someone that is content; because you don’t have anything to offer him. Your grandfather thinks he’s in good standing and condescendingly rejects “your” gospel. It happens everywhere, even within the land of being a Protestant. There are all kinds of ministers telling people to “make a decision” and after they do, their heart becomes hardened to the gospel and they become a 10 fold son of hell. Joanne is right, however, I can’t say it any better than she did; “speak the truth in love and continue to pray the Holy Spirit will soften hardened hearts and open blinded eyes!”

  3. Neil says:

    I can relate. I came from a culture that’s plagued by Roman Catholicism. Sadly, the motto you would here from people is this, “I was born a catholic, I will die a catholic.”

    Let’s just continue to lift them in prayer.

    As C.H. Spurgeon once said,

    Oh, my brothers and sisters in Christ, if sinners will be damned, at least let them leap to hell over our bodies; and if they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees, imploring them to stay, and not madly to destroy themselves. If hell must be filled, at least let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions, and let not one go there unwarned and unprayed for.

    As long as there is time, let’s not give up on our unsaved relatives and friends.

    Grace and Peace.

  4. DavidW says:

    Neil, Wade, Joanne: All very well said.

    Pilgrim: It is truly disheartening, frustrating, grievous, to offer God’s truth, and to have it thrown back in rejection. But hardest of all is to experience this from those we love so deeply and care about on a personal level. It’s a tremendous heartache. I feel it today. And I’m sure many brethren in Christ around the world keenly feel this.

    My uncle ridiculed and mocked his wife for her dedication as a Christian. She never gave up praying for her husband, and endured the abuse all those years, being faithful to Christ. In his 90’s, shortly before he died, he became a follower of the Jesus Christ he had rejected all his life.

    Let us not lose heart in diligently praying for the lost.

  5. brother Michael says:

    Pilgrim,
    Thanks for sharing your experience with your grandfather. I know the difficulties and heartache for us as believers when dealing with family members who claim to have Christ yet ironically want nothing to do with him or his gospel when you bring it up. This is the tragedy of dead religion where faith in a church/religion prevents people from having faith in Christ.

    DavidW – Great testimony and praise God for your persevering aunt and converted uncle!

  6. Elizabeth says:

    Again, another post that hits so close to home.

    When I was 8 years old, I was in the hospital getting my tonsils out. An old priest came to bring me communion, and I remember being terrified because I didn’t know when to say the words in the right place. It seemed to go on forever. His gruff demeanor didn’t help any.

    The lack of joy these “ministers” have in this work reminds me of JW’s going around and “doing the work of Jehovah” with so much weariness in their souls. Such a heavy yoke, works of the flesh are.

  7. My grandfather jokingly replied, “We won’t hold that against you.” And of course this stranger representing Rome agreed, confirming they don’t hold anything against anyone.

    Oy! You held your tongue better that I would have – I’d have shot back, “Oh, really? You mean that whole Council of Trent thang was just a big ol’ misunderstanding, then?”

    But that’s because I empathize with the frustration and the sheer audacity. Do we come from the same family or something??? It’s as if you are writing about my parents!

    Around here (New England), as my pastor says, ‘you have to get folks unsaved before you can get them saved!’

  8. Diane says:

    Pilgrim,
    I, too, understand a little of what you experienced, as I have a Catholic brother, nephews and sister in law. I received the very same response after begging my brother recently to investigate the claims the RCC makes and compare them with the bible. His response, “It’s (all religions) all good as long as we really believe what we believe. Everything will work out in the end.”
    And so we do not stop praying, because there is hope…with God all things are possible.
    Bless you.

  9. jude newman says:

    Thanks Pilgrim,
    my family are all RC. I can’t share my faith with them, they patronize, laugh and become hostile. I am held up to be not quite as bright as them,maybe not quite right in the head. Just before my Dad died all I could do was put a Gospel of John on his pillow I trust in my heavenly Father that no matter what happens He is righteous and just.When my Dad died I had a hard time knowing he was unrepentant. I had to turn my eyes to God, knowing that any judgment on my Dad was true and right. My heavenly Father is not vain and fickle like men and He always judges righteously and that one day all this pain and sorrow will be no more. I pray for my family with tears, my Mum is 80 with failing health, she doesn’t want anything to do with me. I have my prayers and the knowledge that one day this vale of tears will be no more, that my assurance is in the coming of my Lord and Savior. Bless you and I pray this will be a time for you to draw ever closer to Him

  10. Julie says:

    Having been delivered from the RCC, I can appreciate your agony over your grandfathers blindness to the truth. And working in a hospital and watching these priests come in and perform their drive-by blessings is both pathetic and annoying. I recall one time when a family had called for the priest for some loved one who had just died. The priest came in and performed the last sacrament in less than a minute and left. The poor visitor that was with them said “Is that it?” And the surviving family member stated “Yes, that’s it. That’s all you have to do and your taken care of.” I could hardly believe my ears. These people (especially the older ones) are so deep and so lost in this religion. It really is sad. All I can say is to keep praying for your Catholic friends and relatives that God will have mercy and save them from this false religion before it’s too late.

  11. My stepmother is a cradle Catholic. She moved back to upstate New York several years ago after my father died and has been assimilated into the Roman Catholic collective. I sent her a copy of this excellent book: http://www.lighthousetrails.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LTP&Product_Code=AJ&Category_Code=RO

    When she visited during Thanksgiving, she admitted to reading a bit of it, but she is very defensive – just as the cult teaches their drones to be.

    I agree with the comments here – we must proclaim the Truth to them and pray for them. We need to remember that no man can save another – the Lord knows who He has elected. We must be faithful to proclaim the Gospel and trust God the Father to have His Spirit regenerate those are called.

    In His grip because I am most unable.

  12. Wade says:

    I have a question and do not mean to get everyone off topic; is there a difference between Catholicism & Greek Orthodox? I have a friend the is GO and from how he describes their practices, etc. it sounds the same as Catholicism to me. I think they pray to Mary?

    Any help is greatly appreciated.

    Grace & Peace,

  13. brother Michael says:

    Hi Wade – Catholicism and Greek Orthodox are similar in many ways but there are differences. Please check out the article here where you can get some great information as well as links to help you in your studies.

    Blessings to you.

  14. CPCIV says:

    I figured I place this in this blog..I dont know how often people read the blogs that are older. I was reading an article on Tim Tebow and the a “anti-abortion” commercial that some Women rights group is protesting about that will be played on Super Bowl Sunday.

    I alwas had the idea that if Christians could come together and put money to have a commercial aired during a big sporting event. I read in this article that it will cost about 2.5 to 2.8 million for a 30second commercial during the Super Bowl. http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Womens-groups-urge-CBS-to-drop-Tebow-Super-Bowl-ad-012510?GT1=39002

    The commercial I would suggest would be the Bible Says I think its a video by ignitermedia or something like that. (sounds like Morgan Freeman is speaking, not sure though, hopefully not..*L*) Im sure there could be 2.5 to 2.8 million “Christians or professing Christians.*LOL*” Donate a dollar..and then go to CBS with the proposal. What do you guys and ladies think? Please move this post to another appropriate article if necessary.. God Bless.

  15. Wade says:

    CPCIV,

    IMO I don’t think they would air it. It is too contrversial and even though they might get 2 1/2 + million for the air time I suspect that they would estimate that the damage that they would incur from this ad would equate to much more than the money they would make for a 30 second air time slot; it wouldn’t be worth the risk. The real sad thing is that if it was an ad to save the whales or a rain forest, they would run it in a heart beat because its a popular cause. Its sad that this is where we are in our country where we are more concerned about saving a bunch of trees or how much exhaust our family car is putting out over the slaughter of babies that takes place in this country on a daily basis.

  16. Chris says:

    Pilgrim,

    I feel your pain. I buried my dad last Friday, in a ceremony replete with the trimmings of Roman Catholicism. As I sat in his critical-care room the previous Monday, watching him slowly slip away, a priest came into the room, called by the staff at the Catholic hospital he was in. The priest, prior to administering “last rites”, said these exact words: “authority has been given to me to forgive all of your sins”. To me, the only believer in the room, the uttering of such a blasphemous statement made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. To the others in the room, many of which have bought the false gospel of Catholicism, it was a moment of comfort. The final “box” had been checked to present to God. One of the ultimate evils of the RCC is it allows man, in his arrogance, to feel as though he has made God his debtor. On judgment day, just present Him with what you did (baptism, confession, etc.) and He cannot turn you away–He owes you heaven.

    My mom is still living, though firmly entrenched in the RCC. I pray that God grants her the grace of eyes to see.

  17. Julie says:

    CPICIV

    What a worthy thought! However, most Superbowl viewers would probably be under the influence of an unholy spirit of sorts. But what a sobering moment it could be if they could see the abortion video shown on AbortionNO.org! This video would probably incite a small riot of sorts from the Pro-choicers of the world. But then again, maybe it would change a few minds and save a few unborn of the viewers. Where do I donate?

  18. Excellent Post –

    The last verse really sums all this [and the rank emerging/charasmatic/pentecostal movement] up;

    ““They have healed the brokenness of My people superficially, Saying, ‘Peace, peace,’ But there is no peace.” – Jeremiah 16:14

  19. Wade says:

    Really not meaning to get this post off topic so please allow me to address two things at once;

    1) in regards to the abortion ad for Super Bowl Sunday; just by chance I found this story on Drudge today;

    “The University of Florida campus is slowly catching wind of Tim Tebow’s decision to star in a Super Bowl ad slated to air on CBS on Feb. 7, and some say the ad’s message is bound to spark controversy.

    The ad spot was purchased by Focus on the Family, a conservative Christian organization that places emphasis on marriage and parenthood.

    The Associated Press reported this week that the ad’s theme will be “Celebrate Family, Celebrate Life,” with Pam Tebow sharing the story of her difficult 1987 pregnancy — instead of getting an abortion she decided to give birth to Tebow, the now-famous quarterback who went on to become a Heisman Trophy winner, leading the Gators to two BCS wins. ”

    http://blogs.abcnews.com/campuschatter/2010/01/univ-of-florida-anticipates-tim-tebow-ad.html

    This may not be as shocking as airing an abortion in a commercial but I think its a step in the right direction and am shocked that they would even allow this to air.

    On a second note, I agree that money speaks in the secular world but I also believe that perspective counts as well. $2.5 million dollars is a lot of money for most if not all working people but in the grand scheme of things, its not that much money to CBS and I doubt they would have trouble finding someone to fill the spot. If they are going to catch a lot of grief

    2.) In reference to RCC congregants;

    I don’t know a lot of RCC congregants but from what I’ve encountered, most are not “practicing” members. I don’t want to stereotype but from what I can tell, for the most part; a lot of Catholics don’t read their bible and do not know what is in the bible; a lot of Catholics seem to profess to be Catholic but do not attend mass, confession, etc. on a regular basis. They seem to take comfort in saying that they are “Catholic” or were raised Catholic as if that on its own merit is going to get them into heaven (I never know, is it improper to not capitalize “heaven”?). If it weren’t so sad it would be funny but we have Christians that struggle with not “knowing” if they are saved or not and on the other hand, Catholics never seem to doubt their assurance. Nevertheless, it always amazes me at how devoted Catholics are to their “religion”. I know someone that never goes to mass or confession and yet when it came time to marry, it was completely insisted upon the spouse to “convert”; and along with this, an agreement that their children will be raised accordingly. If you don’t care enough to attend mass and confession then why worry about your spouse being Catholic and why worry about your children being raised that way? If they really believed it then they would practice it. I know I’ve said it before but I think a lot of it comes down to having just enough religion in your life to make you comfortable.

    Sorry if I rambled.

    I am sorry for Pilgrim as well as anyone else that is having to face the heartache of having a family member in the RCC and just will not listen to the gospel. As has been stated previously, we need to continue to pray and in that we must persevere.

    Grace & Peace

  20. Jeff H says:

    Chris,

    I am sorry for your loss as well. May the Lord bring His comfort to you. Keep praying for your mom to be delivered from the darkness of the RCC.

    – Jeff H

  21. CPCIV says:

    Julie – just thought I had, it was actually during sermon where Alstair Begg spoke on about advertising and things. But it would be correct to say that CBS wouldnt have trouble finding someone with money to put forth their commerical. I should find out how much does it cost just for a commercial on tv shows like 24, CSI, etc..etc..

    Wade – You are correct on the professing “Catholics”,”Christians”..I spoke about this with a friend the other day. The U.S. have many professing followers of some sort of religion, but just like Christians, if you really get down to it. Other countries who actually are true Muslims, Catholics, etc..etc..would say that the American view and practice of their religion is false. Land of the free I agree…

  22. Sarah D says:

    Pilgrim,
    While I completely sympathize with your feelings about Roman Catholic theology, and I admit it must be tough to watch this theology being “peddled” to family members, I must ask:
    Do you feel as if your response to the Eucharist Minister was entirely Christ-like? Both in your behavior at the hospital AND in your attitude expressed in this post? I’m not sure our mission to “carry the Light of the Gospel into a world shrouded in darkness” is best served by expressing our disgust to those in the dark… OR to our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

    I welcome any thoughts about this, though – I’m struggling with where to draw the line while “defending and contending” with those that don’t share my Protestant beliefs.

  23. DavidW says:

    Sarah D:

    I believe the Pilgrim’s response was biblical.

    If you knew someone was giving candy (laced with rat poison) to someone you loved, and your loved one chose to take it, has been taking it for years, and insists on continuing to take it, they have made a decision you must respect (yet completely disagree with). But wouldn’t it make you the least bit concerned, and frustrated, that they are unknowingly, yet wholeheartedly taking deadly doses of poison? Wouldn’t it grieve you to see them do this? How would you feel regarding the supplier of that poison who continues to hand-feed that poison to your loved one? Would you smile, be social and polite, while that candy was fed to your loved one right in front of you?

    I am puzzled by your mention of “fellow brothers and sisters in Christ” in regard to Pilgrim’s story. Are you saying you consider Catholics and bible-believing Christians fellow brothers and sisters in Christ? If so, how would you reconcile that by the Scriptures?

  24. Wade says:

    I don’t think anyone in this post has been mean spirited. We are to tell the truth out of love and I haven’t gotten the impression that anyone has been speaking the truth here as an excuse to slander or gossip. It is very frustrating to see false teaching drag family members down. We are talking about eternity here; none of this is a game. If we have a heart after God, we will be angered by things that anger Him. There is such a thing as righteous anger and its not wrong for us to have righteous anger. At the same time we are to have a heart for the lost. We should be disgusted with Catholic doctrine that deviates from scripture but at the same time we need to have a heart for those that have fallen prey to false teaching; the teaching of men as opposed to the teaching of scripture. We need to pray for EVERYONE in the world that has not become an heir in Christ, Catholics included.

  25. Um, you do realize that that man wasn’t even a priest? :) That he wasn’t mediating or even attempting to mediate? :) That your grandparents became reverent because they were about to receive Christ – not because Joe Schmoe Eucharistic Minister strolled in? If that was your level of comprehension, it’s small wonder that your grandfather paid you no attention. You didn’t have the first idea of who was doing what, or why; you thought you knew and that was good enough for you. Maybe you thought your actions were Christlike. Maybe you thought you were providing a genuine witness. But to this Catholic, your attitudes and actions, and the casual ignorance you base them on, are repellent.

    What you wrote here might play well in an echo chamber. It won’t do so well offline, in actual conversation with an actual Catholic – as your grandfather already showed you.

  26. brother Michael says:

    Margaret Catherine – The man is not a priest yet he is literally carrying around Jesus in his pocket so I trust he has some degree of ecclesiastical muscle to be entrusted with such a great task.

    As far as Pilgrim’s Grandfather becoming “reverent” to use your word, I dare say (and Pilgrim rebuke me if necessary) was hypocrisy. Hypocrisy because Catholics are taught by word and deed to be prim and proper when they are in the presence of a “holy” person, whether it be a priest or a lay minister. But, once this “holy” person leaves, it is back to their regular self. I witnessed this countless times ever Sunday at Mass which was a stage for such rank hypocrisy where people would act all holy in church, but once they got home, it was back to living like the devil and talking like sailors.

    Also, although I cannot speak for Pilgrim, I am sure his Grandfather pays his beloved grandson much attention in all matters except those related to the gospel. Why would this be? I garner because he is comfortable with his religion; his religion that tells him what to do in order to be right with God. Problem is; that what he is told is not Scriptural and it will not make him right with God.

    I also ask, why would a man, who is said to be a Christian, not want to discuss the gospel and become adverse to it? It would be like a married man becoming hostile and upset when someone wanted to engage him with conversation about his wife. Maybe I’m too simple minded, but something does not add up here as all believers I know are not afraid of the gospel or the Lord Jesus.

  27. I am not trying to poke fun or make light of a serious situation. I have family members as well that will not listen to the Gospel. It is very sad. I would just like to know something about communion bread. If anyone can answer this I would appreciate it.
    Since Jesus lives forever more. He is from everlasting to everlasting. He does not see corruption. He is perfect.
    If the communion bread becomes Jesus’ flesh, will that communion bread go bad? Will it ever mold? Will it ever become stale?
    I would think that it would not considering it is the flesh of Christ. Because according to M.C. “That your grandparents became reverent because they were about to receive Christ” communion bread is the flesh of Jesus.

    Feel free to delete this comment if it is not appropriate. I just think about strange things sometimes. Would there be a different post that I could place this comment?

  28. Shane
    If it’s strange, you’re in good company; I think it was Augustine who discussed what would happen should a mouse eat the Eucharist. :) Yes, the Eucharist will stale, and in damp conditions go moldy (we make a point of not keeping it that long, but it will happen). OTOH, google ‘Eucharist’ and ‘Lanciano’ or ‘Orvieto’, you might be interested in what comes up there.

    Brother Michael
    To answer a few different points:
    1. A certain amount of muscle…not really. A certain amount of trust, and responsibility, yes – but there’s nothing especially holy about Eucharistic ministers. Trust me. I’ve been one, and if I can be… ;) In any case, an E.M. is no more priestly than any other baptized person, and in no respect is he a “mediator”. No Catholic would regard him as such. He quite simply was not there for the purpose of bringing up “the real issues of their sin nature in all its abhorrent wretchedness and hostility toward God”. He was there to bring Communion. He would have been grossly overstepping his place had he done anything further.

    2. Behaving one way in church, and another way at home – or, far too often, behaving another way the moment the priest is out of sight – is a very real problem. No question. But where you’re seeing hypocrisy, I’m seeing people recalled to prayer, to God’s presence. It doesn’t last. It should, it doesn’t – but isn’t condemning it as hypocrisy coming at the whole thing backwards? Our task is to build up, to strengthen what remains. Not to judge, lest we be judged – sooner or later during the week, we all “forget” church.

    3. I don’t know, from Pilgrim’s account, that his grandfather was averse to discussing the Gospel. Quite possibly he was simply averse to being ‘witnessed’ to by his own grandson. I’m not sure I’d react any differently if a niece of mine, say, started evangelizing me. *Especially* if she ever started going on about my “rampant and impenitent sin”: I still remember the time she threw up in my lap rather than swallow cough syrup, how’s that for disobedience??? Or my nephew, who used to drink his bottle so fast it would come out his nose – talk about greed! There’s a fair amount of human psychology behind Jesus’ words about no prophet being accepted in his own village.

    Or, possibly it wasn’t that it was because Pilgrim was his grandson. Possibly it was because Pilgrim – by his own account – had earlier shown outright contempt for his beliefs. Possibly it was indeed that he was comfortable in his own religion, in a lifetime of experience shaped by it. There are any number of reasons, I don’t know the real one, but by no means need the reason be hostility to the Gospel.

  29. Sounds like it’s just bread to me. But what do I know.

    I always thought that receiving Christ was putting my faith and trust in His finished work on the cross. I figured since His blood washed away my sins(Rev5:1) and that I am at peace with God(Rom5:1) because of His sacrifice, propitiation(Rom3:25), I wouldn’t need to do anything other than just believe(John5:24) for the salvation of my soul.

  30. Shane, I’m not seeking to convince you of anything; I’m answering the very practical question you posed. I recognize the same facts (that the Eucharist will stale and will grow moldy), and yet I still believe as I do.

  31. I guess it could be likened to how I used to listen to false prophets in the charismatic/pentecostal movement and go right along with what they said. I questioned some of it but since everyone said it was ok I went right along with it. It took God to show me the error though. It wasn’t what anyone said about the errors that got me to come out of the movement.

    It leaves me wondering how “Christ” could go stale and moldy. My natural mind cannot grasp that.

  32. Sarah D. says:

    David W.-

    Sorry for the confusion! To clarify, let me copy & paste:

    “I’m not sure our mission… is best served by expressing our disgust to those in the dark… OR to our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ..”

    “Those in the dark” refers to the Eucharist Minister in the story, and “our fellow brothers & sisters” refers to the fine folks reading & responding to this blog post. ; )

    I appreciate the poison analogy – but I think your focus, and Pilgrim’s, is slightly misplaced… perhaps the time & energy you are spending on feeling frustrated and grieved you could actually invest in providing a Christ-like witness to these misguided souls, who – by the way – actually believe the false doctrines they are selling to others.
    Imagine a drug dealer who is addicted to the drugs they deal… no amount of exasperation, frustration, arguing, sarcasm, etc. will even come close to solving the problem. Both the drug dealer and his clients need rehabilitation.

  33. “I guess it could be likened to how I used to listen to false prophets in the charismatic/pentecostal movement and go right along with what they said. ”

    Perhaps it could be – but I would like to think that my faith is based on slightly more than majority opinion.

    “It leaves me wondering how “Christ” could go stale and moldy. My natural mind cannot grasp that.”

    And neither can mine. Nor can mine grasp how there can be an eternal God (or indeed anything at all!). Nor grasp how He could be a Trinity. Nor how the second Person of that Trinity could be both God and man. From that perspective, the Eucharist is simply one more mystery among many. I could explain to you about “substance” and “accidents” – but those are ultimately just words layered over something beyond human comprehension.

  34. Dear Margaret,

    I wish I could say thank you for your sensitivity in the matter, but I’d be lying.

    What blows my mind is how a man who daily blaspheme’s God’s name, has no interest in the things of God, hasn’t cracked a Bible since before I was born, never steps foot in church (save for baptisms and funerals), is perverse, ungrateful, holds bitter unforgiveness in his heart towards those who have ‘done him wrong,’ opposes any conversations about God, is hostile to God, rejects God’s son, rejects the the truth of the Scriptures and is completely unrepentant (even in the face of death), can then pause his lifestyle of impenitent sin just long enough to “receive Christ” in the form of a Chicklet-sized cracker and then quickly return to his lifestyle of sin, and somehow everything’s fine: God’s happy, the payment for sin has been satisfied, and my grandfather can now continue in his hypocritical lifestyle of rejecting holiness, rejecting sanctification, and rejecting Christ, only to have people like you, Margaret, continue to lull him to sleep with your false assurances.

    You know not the man that laid in that bed, but because of his identification as a Romish adherent you have unrighteously judged him a saint. You care not for the man to examine himself to see if he is in the faith. You care not that he took “communion” unworthily, you care not that he is facing the terrifying judgment of God for his sins. You instead care only to play word games (cough syrup, baby bottles, and “but isn’t condemning it as hypocrisy coming at the whole thing backwards?”) as you fight to persuade everyone that the cult of Rome somehow has the answers for a dying man.

    So as to squelch you speculation, Margaret, my grandfather does not want to hear the gospel because it brings conviction of sin. He would rather cling (albeit rather half-heartedly) to his synergistic dead religion that cries ‘peace and safety’ while eternal destruction awaits him one heartbeat away, than to bow the knee to the only one who can save him; Jesus Christ.

    The E.M. offered my grandfather nothing except false hope, just as you offer nothing but excuses, just as the false cult of Rome offers nothing but lies.

    – The Pilgrim

    For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes. Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself, if he does not judge the body rightly. 1 Cor. 11:26-29

  35. “Perhaps it could be – but I would like to think that my faith is based on slightly more than majority opinion.”

    Are you sure? Salvation by faith alone, what the Bible states, is the “minority opinion” with man. Earning salvation is the “majority opinion” with man.

    From what I have studied about the RCC, not much, it seems like they require works along with faith to earn salvation. Which would put the RCC in the “majority opinion” category.

  36. Pilgrim – :( Your original post was a tooth-grinding (literally) rant against Catholicism. So yeah, that sent me to the other extreme. I do care about all of those things, but I didn’t know if you were talking about really much more than the fact your grandfather was in that “false religion” of his.

  37. Wade says:

    Margaret,

    If Pilgrim believes his grandfather is involved in a false religion, why wouldn’t he be upset? How loving of a grandson would he be if he didn’t get upset after believing his grandfather is involved in a false religion?

    There really is no such thing as pleasing everyone. I was just reading yesterday that the criticism that the Eastern Orthodox church has against Protestants is that think we think too much and our worship lacks spirit. At other times when we look to the Greek to find the meaning of a word, we’re told not to be so technical about everything because we need to observe the spirit of the law, etc. And then when we get upset because our emotions possess the courage of our convictions, its somehow wrong? We’re being un-Christ like? Jesus showed great emotion when correcting the Pharisees. Paul showed great emotion when he rebuked false teaching; he even told a woman not to let false teachers into her home and I’m sure if we were to do that today we would be accused of being un-Christ like. I can’t speak for Pilgrim but I would guess that the constraint that he showed was completely out of the love that He has for Christ because I’m sure he knows enough scripture that he could’ve nailed everyone to the wall if they wanted to debate doctrine.

    ———————————————————————————-

    Margaret,

    I’m sorry if my last post sounded harsh. It wasn’t my intention to be mean to you; I only wanted to illustrate that if you look at it from our standpoint then perhaps you too would be upset if you thought that a family member was in danger.

    Grace & Peace,
    ———————————————————————————-

    I stand corrected on my other post. Paul didn’t tell a woman to not let false teachers into her home, it was John.

    Sorry…

  38. Dear Sarah D.

    Not sure if you understood the post, but the peddler was only in the room for five minutes. Nobody’s lifestyle evangelism is that good. You can’t grin enough and be polite enough to a wolf in five minutes to effect the desired result that you think will come about.

    Secondly, we at DefCon (and many of our readers) do not take the limp-wristed, coddle-the-false-teacher approach that you are suggesting. Instead we take a more hardened approach against false prophets and false teachers, just like Jesus and the Apostles did.

    To better understand where we uncompromisingly stand when it comes to wolves among the flock, please refer to Fourpointer’s recent missive Let us flee, for the enemy of the truth is inside.

    Also, for a better understanding of the way sheep should interact with wolves, refer to this Thursday’s sermon of the of the week by John MacArthur entitled Sheep Among Wolves.

    After this, if you still disagree with us and feel we’re not loving enough to those dragging our friends and loved one’s to eternal damnation, then I suggest you find another blog that’s more accommodating to wolves, for we will not capitulate, regardless of what everyone else is doing around us.

    Sincerely,
    – The Pilgrim

  39. jude newman says:

    Margaret.
    you said
    “I guess it could be likened to how I used to listen to false prophets in the charismatic/pentecostal movement and go right along with what they said. ”
    The charismatic/pentecostal movements are heading to Rome and have been for a very long time. You only jumped a bit ahead of them

  40. Sarah D says:

    Pilgrim,
    I agree five minutes isn’t quite enough time for lifestyle evangelism to stop a Roman Catholic dead in his tracks. ; )
    I guess I’m not familiar enough with DefCon to fully understand how the designation of “wolf” or “false prophet” is made. I am reading some more posts, & will check out that sermon as soon as I can. (Trouble loading it at work.) If you feel like the Eucharist Minister was truly a false prophet, “spitefully using” your grandfather (pulled those words from your post, Are We Supposed to Pray for the Wolves,) then I support & applaud your response.
    On the off-chance that this guy was merely a lost soul, trying to serve God in a way that he believes in his heart is right (because he has been misled, just as your grandfather has been,) then I would argue that perhaps your reaction did more harm than good.
    I guess I’m still working on how to best tell the difference between wolves and lost sinners… I’m jealous that you were able to do it in less than 5 minutes at the hospital…
    ; )

  41. Wade – Of course he should be upset. But for heaven’s sake – “fork-tongued tool of Satan?” “Chiclets” in an “Altoids tin”? Walking out of the room at the very moment the Body of Christ is being held aloft and proclaimed?

    Yes, Christ showed great emotion – but He also showed great mercy; read the account of Him meeting the Samaritan woman at Jacob’s well. He did not come down on her like a ton of bricks, but met her where she was and gently led her to recognize Him as Messiah.

    I’m trying to give you a Catholic lens to look through. That’s all. I’m trying to show you, a little, where it is you lose any chance of the Catholic hearing what you have to say. We *do* believe that that “little piece of food” is Christ, and there comes with that everything we believe about Christ Himself. Mock that, or sigh and walk out, and you slam the door on yourself.

    Sarah – The Eucharistic minister was just a rank-and-file Catholic, commissioned to bring Communion to homebound and hospitalized Catholics. He had no special authority or credentials, he was just somebody from Pew 4A who’d stepped forward for the particular ministry.

  42. Margaret,
    The ‘body of Christ’ is in heaven, at the right hand of the Father. When Christ ascended after His resurrection, He took His proper place at the right hand of His Father…He is not in some ‘wafer’, nor can He be found in a bit of wine.
    Here is proof, from God’s own word…Rom 8:34-Who [is] he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us-
    Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. –
    Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high –

    Hbr 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God

    Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. –
    1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

    Traditions will save no one, grace is what saves; grace available through Christ the Lord. Ephesians 2:8.9, ‘For by GRACE are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves {meaning grace, faith, and salvation}, it is a GIFT OF GOD, not of works, lest any man should boast’. You simply cannot ‘earn’ your way to heaven, nor can you work your way there. True biblical Christianity is not birthed out of man’s traditions and rituals, it is found only in God’s life-changing word.

    lyn

    Fourpointer–apparently we were typing simultaneously!

  43. Walking out of the room at the very moment the Body of Christ is being held aloft and proclaimed?

    Funny, I didn’t think Jesus’ body could be carried around in a fancy tin in one’s pocket. Last time I read the Bible, it said that Jesus was seated at the right hand of God–

    Romans 8:34–Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

    Colossians 3:1–If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.

    Hebrews 12:2–looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    1st Peter 3:22–who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

    Psalm 110:1–The LORD said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”

    The word of Scripture makes it perfectly clear that our Lord Jesus is seated, in Heaven, at the right hand of God. Yet the Romish church has reduced our Lord to a pile of crackers on a plate or carried around in an Altoids™ tin, and that if the you eat this cracker, then by golly, you’re saved!!

    We *do* believe that that “little piece of food” is Christ, and there comes with that everything we believe about Christ Himself. Mock that, or sigh and walk out, and you slam the door on yourself.

    No, friend, by reducing the Lord of glory to a pile of crackers, it is Rome that is heaping condemnation on itself, and everyone who follows such teachings. Jesus is not sacrificed over and over again. He offered Himself once for all time, on the cross. To say that His “body” (the crackers and juice) has to be sacrificed over and over again is to blaspheme our Lord and to “count the blood that He shed as a common thing” (Hebrews 10:29).

    If one were to stop looking at things “through a Catholic lens” (Roman Catholic, that is) and simply read the Scriptures, one would flee as quickly as possible from the wrath that will one day swallow the Vatican in fiery indignation.
    ___________________________________________________________________

    lyn,

    What, were we typing our responses at the same time?

  44. Neil says:

    Brothers and Sisters,

    If only God would allow all of you to spend even a holy week in my country, you would learn how despicable Roman Catholicism is. What am I saying, go to youtube, look up feast of the black nazarene in the Philippines, the holy week, the penitence, Quiapo church, cardinal Jaime Sin, and maybe you will understand how my countrymen are in bondage to this religion.

    Are we really led to believe that the cardinals, the priests, participating in this events, holding a bible and a rosary, a scapular, wearing white & red robes, do not have the slightest idea of what they’re doing?

    My mother was a strong a devout Catholic…and in America, these catholic devotion does not exist (it probably does, but not in volume and somewhat unheard of). I’m talking about carrying a 3-4 foot idol of the virgin mary, while on her knees right in the doorstep of Quiapo Church (one of the biggest church) working her way to the altar, with a rosary on the other hand praying Hail Mary, Our father, and other Catholic prayers thinking that this is what she should do to be saved and her prayers be heard. She would visit grottos, trek mountains and do devotions to whatever saint they put on there. They would dance during the feast of some saint believing that they will get pregnant and have a baby. They would crucify themselves during holy week. And I’m not talking about ropes, these are real nails pounded on their palms. (not sure about the feet though..) Because they believe this is what they need to be forgiven, and some people do this every year during holy week. These are just examples…

    Are you telling me that these priest do not know what they are doing?

    I apologize for my ranting. As my mother used to say after being born again (praise God!) “You will curse the day you become a Roman Catholic!” And my friends it is true. People actually believe that salvation is through WORKS! And it is D most damnable heresy anybody can think of! Wolves? They are worse.

    However… we are still to walk in love…

  45. Thanks, to whomever’s been merging my posts together – I’ll try to remember on my own, when/if I post here again. This is y’all’s blog, I didn’t come here to play troll – and I don’t believe in the power of the Internet to save anybody, anyway.

    I am in fact reading the Scriptures – not only at Mass as any Catholic does, but for hours a day; I’m in the middle of a writing project for my parish church. The entire Lenten cycle of Old Testament, Epistle, and Gospel readings, over 40 days’ worth, read again and again. The constant call to repentence, remembrance of the Covenant, mercy towards the widow, the stranger and the alien. Love of God and love of neighbor, and everything else coming from that. It is true that works do not save, but there is no saving faith that is not expressed through works, through the mercy towards others that God desires of us. And it is that mercy that I find very little trace of in this discussion (save for Sarah, who was reminded there were other blogs for *that*). You believe you have the truth, do you have love towards those outside of it?

  46. brother Michael says:

    Wow Neil – thanks for sharing this! I know of these things through my research but to hear it first hand is extremely helpful. If you ever want to write a short paper on these things you have witnessed with your own eyes, I’m sure we here at DefCon would love to post it as a guest article. Something that would be very helpful for the Catholics blinded to the truth of their religion.

    bro Michael

  47. Margaret Catherine
    “It is true that works do not save, but there is no saving faith that is not expressed through works”

    I would agree that faith without works is dead. I guess the question would be, do those works come from gratitude of being saved from the wrath of God by His grace through faith or is it because we feel like we have to do those works to earn God’s favor and/or salvation?

    If works are the result of trying to earn God’s favor and/or salvation, how many works does it take?

    John6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
    John6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    I am trying to be merciful. I hope I don’t seem like I am not. I find it interesting to talk to a R.C. Will I convert? no. I like to see why people believe what they believe. I think a lot of people cannot tell someone why they believe what they believe other than it is what they have always been taught.

  48. Neil says:

    Brother Michael…

    I would love to do one. Give me some time and Lord willing I’ll submit one to you…

    Glory to God!
    _____________________________________________________________________

    Margaret…I believe I have the truth, yes I do..because it is what the Word of God says.

    Secondly…Do I have love towards outside of my belief…YES I DO! And i will tell you why…The people you refer to are my uncles, my aunts, my cousins, my nephews, my nieces, godparents, my friends, my co-workers….These are people I eat with, work with, laugh with..people who witnessed my birth, my birthdays….these are the same people who were there when my father had a heart attack, a stroke, an end renal failure, a kidney transplant. The same people who witness my marriage, my son’s miraculous birth…these are the same people that I would give my life for…for the same reason that I believe they would do the same…

    But I must! never compromise the truth. And if I know the truth, I must share the strongest of my conviction to them. That Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation alone, by grace alone..through faith alone.. Our works is meaningless to God when it comes to our salvation. It is all God’s sovereign grace that saved me. How can I preach love (like you said) if i will not tell them the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. If my relatives and friends and I have the same belief about Christ, then why are we still different? If we are commanded to love others, then let’s love them by telling the truth.

    This is where I draw the line. I must stand for my faith, and If I am so sure, beyond the shadow of doubt, that my God is the only way to salvation and he is mighty to save. Then this is the truth that I must preach.

    I was a Roman Catholic, my whole family came from Roman Catholicism…And believe me…they are different. The God of the roman Catholic is different from the God of the Bible. And I will not be ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ of the Bible.

    Margaret, I have witnessed enough tradition brought in by the roman catholic in my country that have sent men to hell thinking that these are the way they can get to heaven. As I’ve said before…witness to any RC in my country and they’ll tell you..” I was born a catholic, I’d die a catholic..”

  49. Margaret-
    You asked this, ‘You believe you have the truth, do you have love towards those outside of it?’
    My response is this, if you truly love others, you will give them biblical truth, NOT going outside God’s word speaking of extra biblical revelation or church tradition. Instead, simply stick with God’s word; cry out to Him for insight, wisdom and knowledge, add nothing to His word.
    I do hope and pray God will reveal His truth to you Margaret; His word says all who diligently seek Him with their whole hearts will indeed find Him.
    As for works, this is evidence of salvation, NOT a means for salvation. Once more, I reference to Ephesians 2:8.9 ‘For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God; Not of works, lest any man should boast.’ This is a key verse to ponder over, salvation is given by God to whom He chooses, as His gift, made available through Christ. There is NO WORK performed by sinful mankind that would cause God to save us, which is why He says, ‘NOT of works, lest any man should boast’.
    Romans 9:11 is more proof of grace, not works, as the only means of salvation, ‘For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth’ — or Galatians 2:16, ‘Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ’.
    Also, read this, 2Ti 1:9 ‘Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began’.
    This passage clearly states salvation is by grace, for His purpose. Works that God ordains for believers come AFTER He saves.
    Titus 3:5 says, ‘ Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us’

    I stress grace and mercy, because I know the Roman Catholic Church stresses ‘works’ as means of salvation; you must continue to work your way to heaven, according to RCC theology, or you won’t enter.

    May the Lord bless you Margaret, may He reveal absolute truth to you as you read His word. I kindly suggest you ask Him to clear your head of what you’ve been taught by man, and replace that with the Spirit of God as your teacher.

    Lyn

  50. Pilgrim, let me first say you have my sympathy for enduring such a heartbreaking event. As far as the subject at hand, the real question I have to ask practicing RC churchgoers is this: Why is hypocrisy so accepted, winked at and embraced in your church? Why the beer tents and the drunkeness? Why the cursing? They are all practices that are merely given a wink accompanied by a “you should try to do better” frown. The book of 1st John makes it SO CLEAR that these things should be alarm bells to you indicating true conversion hasn’t occured. But when someone is confronted with this, the RCC system of works and religious atmosphere steps in and dulls the conscience almost as much as the beer. If someone wants to enjoy sin and feel religious, I would recommed the RCC!

  51. Sarah D:
    Just when I thought you were openly looking at both sides of the coin, you revealed your bias when you snarked:

    I guess I’m still working on how to best tell the difference between wolves and lost sinners… I’m jealous that you were able to do it in less than 5 minutes at the hospital…

    If there’s any shred of sincerity in your comments, then allow me to answer your comment by directing you to Scripture (if you’re not sincere and just here to indirectly support the Romish heresies of Margaret, then you can simply ignore the remainder of this comment and refer to our Rules of Engagement, paying particular attention to #7).

    Compare every instance when Jesus and the Apostles encountered sinners such as thieves, prostitutes, etc. with how Jesus and the Apostles confronted the “religious” who were teaching false doctrine.

    The Bible is very merciful to the sinner, but very harsh to the wolves: Those clouds without water for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever (Jude).

    If (after reading the Scriptures) you still refuse to see the difference between someone like the woman at the well and the thief on the cross compared to the Pharisees and the Judiazers, then it’s no longer a matter of ignorance on your part but willful choice . . . and, again, perhaps this blog just isn’t for you.

    – the Pilgrim

  52. Margaret,

    You never responded to either lyn or me about the fact that Jesus isn’t in a pile of crackers, but is seated at the right hand of God in Heaven. We gave you Scriptural proof. How do you respond? And please give Scriptural proof, not the traditions of Rome.

  53. (If this is a duplicate, please delete it. I don;t know if my previous tries went into moderation due to length, or just vanished somehow.)

    Fourpointer:

    Give me some time for eating, sleeping, working – and drinking coffee; all those essentials of life. :)

    Christ is seated in glory; He’s also present in the Eucharist. It’s a both/and. We know that in His glorified body, he could do things impossible to you and I: how do you know that this is not another of those?

    In Jewish thought, remembering an event was to make it present again, all the more so when it came to their festivals. So a male being circumicised was Abraham, making a covenant with God and taking on the attendant blessings and curses. Passover wasn’t a re-enactment of the flight from Eygpt; it *was* that flight, and they *were* the escaping slaves. Christ specifically invoked that concept at the Last Supper (“do this in memory of me”) and Paul references it as well (“as often as we eat this bread and drink this cup, we proclaim the death of the Lord”). We don’t re-sacrifice Christ; we make His sacrifice, an eternal reality, present again.

  54. DavidW says:

    “But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.” (Acts 5:29). With this truth, inherently fundamental to the fact that God is Who He is, God’s word supersedes the words of any man, or group of men, whoever they are or claim to be. God’s word always trumps those of men.

    God has declared in His word:
    “But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler– not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?” (1Cor.5:12-13)

    According to these verses, the true Christian is forbidden to associate (fellowship) with anyone who claims to be a “Christian” (brother), if he is an idolater. We are commanded to make such judgments.

    Furthermore:
    “For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.” (Eph. 5:5)

    Thus, no idolater will go to heaven.

    “Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.” (1Cor.10:14) Why flee.? Because Idolaters will be cast into the Lake of Fire (which is eternal):

    “”But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Rev. 21:8)

    So what is idolatry? It derives from two words: εἴδωλον (an image or object of worship) and λατρεία (divine worship or service). Simply put, Idolatry is the act of placing something or someone in the place in one’s life that only God must have.

    “Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.'” (Luke 4:8)

    Nowhere are we told by God that we are allowed to worship any object that represents Him. We are commanded to worship and serve Him, and Him alone. To reverence an object, in this case, a piece of bread, as if it were God Himself, is an act of Idolatry. Only God Himself is to be revered and worshiped, not a statue, not a physical representation, not an object. To do so is in violation of God’s specific word. To fellowship with anyone who does so, is also forbidden by God.

    Surely the arguments arises: “But didn’t Jesus transform Himself into the bread and wine at the Last Supper when He said “This is My body”, and “this is My blood”? From the Scriptures, such a literal interpretation could not be so.

    Of the bread and wine, Jesus used the word ἐστί, which is the same word “is” as in Rev. 19:8 “It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.” “Is” in both sections means “represents”, not “has literally become” or “has been turned into”. If Jesus had meant the bread and wine had become His actual, real, physical body and blood, He would have used a different word γίνομαι, which is the word used to describe the wine at Cana that Jesus miraculously made from water (Jn. 2:9). There, He literally turned water into wine. Such was not the case at the Last Supper.

    Furthermore, “Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.” (Jn. 6:35). To come to Him is to eat of Him, to believe in Him is to drink of Him.

    Thus the internal evidence is against the concept that the bread and wine of the Last Supper became the actual, literal body and blood of Jesus.

    Therefore, to worship, reverence, bow to, or believe the communion wafer is the real, actual body of Jesus Christ, is Idolatry.

    Thus, the Pilgrim’s behavior in this instance was biblical.

  55. David – Actually, Jesus spoke Aramaic…which very likely, given how close it is to Hebrew, lacked the word ‘is’ altogether. Christ would have said ‘This my body’. What Greek translation are you using?

  56. DavidW says:

    Margaret:
    I guess the point I was getting at was the difference in meaning between that which merely “represents”, and that which “has become the very same in substance”. To answer your question, The Byzantine Majority text, The Textus Receptus, Westcott and Hort, Tischendorf and others all use the word έστιν (is).

  57. David, right, but your example was a difference of meaning which was an interpolation (admittedly a necessary one). I’m not a Greek scholar or scholar of any language, but I have to wonder at the choice of one word for the Last Supper, and the other for Cana – in Catholic thought those two events are not unrelated.

    By the way, I never meant that I expected Pilgrim to fall down in worship or anything of the sort. He didn’t believe it was Christ, fine. Fair’s fair. But he should either have excused himself at the very beginning, or gritted his teeth and stayed until the end. My point wasn’t only to him but to anyone reading – what seems a bold stand to you is the grossest disrespect to us, and it *will* worsen your chances of getting a Catholic to listen to you. (It took me a full day to unclench my jaw and attempt a comment. And even that first comment was snarkier than I care for now.) Maybe you’re alright with that, it’s all part of the service of Christ to you, but the fact remains.

  58. My advice to anyone studying the Bible is to forget about what the person has been taught, take off their doctrinal glasses, and lay aside their traditions and read the Bible for what it says. God will reveal Himself to you if you seek him.

    When I sat aside what I had been taught in the pent/char movement and studied the Bible for myself, the most amazing thing happened. (can be read on my blog)
    After 10 years of trying to please God, I found the truth. 10 years of trying to do this, do that, trying to keep up a standard of living, 10 years of hoping I was pleasing to God, and etc. were the most miserable years of my life.

    My testimony could be the same if I was born into a RC family or any other religion.

    2Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

  59. Margaret, you still have not provided scripture to back any of your claims.
    Now, we all must agree that either God is or is not a liar. So, if you believe God is NOT a liar, why is it you do not believe His word? You have been given multiple passages from His holy word stating that Christ is at the right hand of the Father, yet, you insist He somehow magically appears in a wafer repeatedly, over and over and over again. What scriptural basis do you give in defense of your claim?
    You also claim Christ said ‘this my body’ {which reminds me of another ‘religion’ that claims ‘and the word was ‘a’ god} again, you must provide proof for such a claim.
    Are you aware the Lord Jesus said ‘do this in remembrance of me'{Luke 22:19} in reference to the Lord’s supper? ‘And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance {from ‘anamnēsis’ meaning ‘a remembering, recollection}of me’. Where in that verse does Christ say He will come back repeatedly in a wafer? IF you read the passage in the context in which it was written, you will understand Christ was commanding all to recollect His finished work on the cross each time we partake of the bread and the cup. Christ was NOT promoting cannibalism {which is forbidden, as is the eating of blood, ‘Deu 12:23 Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood [is] the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh’}.
    If you reject God’s word as the only sole source of truth, then do not bring more severe judgment on yourself by claiming to be a believer in the Christ of the bible. Step away from the twisted unbiblical teachings of the RCC and cry out for the God of the bible to be merciful to you.
    Heed the warning of Christ in Matthew 24:4, ‘And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.’ Ask yourself this Margaret, who was Christ referring to when He spoke of deception? Those who name the name of Christ will be the ones to lead astray, those who, just as in Jesus’ day, appear to be the most religious ‘on the outside’ {Pharisees, Sadducees}, yet, on the inside, remain filthy, unclean. They have never been born again, or born from above, by God. NO denomination or church can give you salvation, no work you do can save you, certainly not even eating a wafer and drinking Mogan David.
    Sad for you Margaret, you have no clear understanding of ‘grace’, you do not understand salvation as explained in God’s word. Salvation is given as a gift by God. Have you ever received a gift from someone Margaret? If so, did you have to do anything first to earn that gift?

    Lyn

  60. Neil says:

    Margaret, This is the Roman catholicism that I KNOW.

    These are just some of the kinds that I have witnessed. Tell me is this really what you believe man should do for salvation?

  61. brother Michael says:

    The Eucharist, said to be Jesus – soul, body and divinity all wrapped up in a little wafer you can eat, digest and then cast out into the sewer. Harsh, yes, but this is the reality of the damnable doctrine of the Eucharist.

    And how does all this come about where common bread is magically and mysteriously changed into the flesh (even though by every test known to man it is still bread regardless of the inane Aristotelian accident smoke and mirrors)? Well, here the Catholic priests give David Copperfield a run for his money as it is taught that during the consecration of the Mass when the priest utters the magical words ‘Hoc Est Corpus Meum’ (where we get the expression Hocus Pocus) that he

    …reaches up into the heavens, brings Christ down from His throne, and places Him upon our [Catholic] altar to be offered up again as the Victim for the sins of man. It is a power greater than that of monarchs and emperors: it is greater than that of the saints and angels, greater than that of the Seraphim and Cherubim.” (O’Brien Faith of Millions)

    Stop and think on this for a minute or two on this folks. Is this not the height of blasphemy to say that Jesus Christ is brought down from heaven by a sinful priest (many of them sodomites) and offered up as a sacrificial victim for people to eat his flesh like a Ritz cracker? And that he even needs to be offered up again which directly opposes the doctrine that Christ Jesus was offered ONCE for the sins of many and then sat down at the right hand of God. But not so in Catholicism where he is offered as a victim again, and again, and again. Hence, you have the Catholic Jesus perpetually hanging defeated, dejected and forlorn on the crucifix.

    But it gets worse than this. Continuing to read O’Brien we find that

    [t]he priest brings Christ down from heaven, and renders Him present on our altar as the eternal Victim for the sins of man – NOT ONCE BUT A THOUSAND TIMES! The priest speaks and lo! Christ, the eternal and omnipotent God, bows his head in humble obedience to the priest’s command.

    So now, we have Jesus Christ, Lord and Lord, and King of Kings bowing “his head in humble obedience to” a priest’s command! Catholics – please – awaken from your slumber as this is NOT the Jesus of the Bible for he takes commands from NO man. He rather is the one who gives commands unto men and he commands you this day to repent!

    How much worse can it get? Much if you have Jesus being reduced to a wafer that must obey men. We can read of Liguori, one of the preeminent Catholic fathers, who writes that

    And after [Jesus] having come [down from heaven and into the priest’s hands], He remains, entirely at their disposal; they move Him as they please, from one place to another; they may, if they wish, shut Him up in the tabernacle, or expose Him on the altar, or carry Him outside the church; they may, if they choose, eat His flesh and give Him for the food of others.

    What more can one say to all this? This is NOT Jesus and it is NOT Scripture. It is the height of blasphemy to say such things about Jesus and it is the height of wickedness to believe that one can command Jesus and lead him around like a dog on a leash, give him to people to eat, or lock him up in the tabernacle like a common criminal.

  62. jude newman says:

    brother Michael,
    excellent description, utter blasphemy. The Lord of Lord and King of Kings reduced to being eaten every week in a wafer Yuk!!!!!

  63. Don’t hold your breath waiting for Scriptural support for the blasphemous doctrine of the Romish Eucharist . . . at least not without some clever twisting and arguments from silence like this one:

    Christ is seated in glory; He’s also present in the Eucharist. It’s a both/and. We know that in His glorified body, he could do things impossible to you and I: how do you know that this is not another of those?

    Roman Catholics refuse to reason from the Scriptures. They claim to believe it’s God’s inspired Words, but this is merely lip service because their popes and traditions hold more weight than the very Words of our Lord; a practice very common with Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons (in fact the more I study JWs and LDS, the more I notice striking resemblances to the RC).

    But I digress. Because Roman Catholics give their church fathers and traditions more weight than the Scriptures, the preaching of the cross will remain foolishness to them till the Holy Spirit can draw them from their indoctrinated superstitious religion and into His marvelous light.

    – The Pilgrim

  64. …and the Defender/Contenders did quarrel amongst themselves, saying ‘How can Christ give us his flesh to eat?’

    A few scattershot answers on that score – there are a lot of you, and only one of me, and it’s late.

    Lyn: I would have said that my answer to Fourpointer was Scriptural, it moved from Abraham to Passover to the Last Supper to Paul’s letters. It wasn’t a list of proof-texts but it was clearly rooted in Scripture, and engagable on that level.

    To toss your own question back at you, why is it you do not believe the word of God Himself? “Amen, amen, I say to you” – Jesus’ equivalent of ‘Thus says the Lord’ – “unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you shall not have life within you.” “Take, eat, this is my body…this is my blood of the new covenant.” You say to read that in context, but the context is a Passover meal, which ended with eating a lamb that had been sacrificed. Christ is *the* Passover lamb, sacrificed for us; the Lord’s Supper (Mass) is our Passover meal. Now as then, we eat the Lamb. We take the words and the context literally, you don’t, and we’re the “unbiblical” ones?

    “You also claim Christ said ‘this my body’ {which reminds me of another ‘religion’ that claims ‘and the word was ‘a’ god} again, you must provide proof for such a claim.”

    *g* In Hebrew, there’s no verb ‘to be’. They skip it, just as in colloquial English you might ask someone “You okay?” instead of “Are you okay?” Aramaic, being very close to Hebrew, probably does the same thing. That’s all. Nothing to see here, no hidden agenda, just a point of linguistics.

    *********************************

    Michael:

    “this is NOT the Jesus of the Bible for he takes commands from NO man.”

    Actually, He did. Mary, Joseph, even Caiaphas when that one invoked his God-given authority as the Jewish high priest. He was, as He said, humble; and as Paul said, He took the form of a slave – of one who, by definition, is subject to others’ commands. He did so out of love, to save us. And out of love, He gives His priests the authority of offering the Mass; He offers us Himself as the sign of our Christian covenant with God; as the bread without which the journey will be too hard for us. (He is *not* sacrificed again, and as often as I need to restate that point I will. The Mass is a re-presentation of the Last Supper, which as an act of God Himself is an eternal reality. Through the grace of that same God, we are granted participation in that reality. It is not a re-sacrifice.)

    You see a crucified Jesus as “dejected, defeated, and forlorn” – I see Christ triumphant: “It is accomplished.”

    *****************************

    Neil –

    I’d also be interested in reading a post about that (the self-crucifixion); I will say that it is certainly not Catholic teaching. If it is a widespread practice in the Phillippines, it is a severe problem for the Church there. As I recall something like it did crop up in America, and was condemned by our bishops.

    ****************************

    “the more I study JWs and LDS, the more I notice striking resemblances to the RC”

    Yes, they’re all acronyms. ;) Pilgrim, *I’m* still waiting for the verse that says Christ’s being seated at the right hand of the Father is exclusive of His presence in the Eucharist. There isn’t one; you’re drawing the conclusion on the basis of what you already believe. Take my question as a sincere one, and give me something more to go on than a list of verses that don’t actually make the argumemt you think they do – or do not make it so obviously as you think they do.

  65. brother Michael says:

    Margaret,
    You really do need to rightly divide the Scriptures. Here, I’m not going to write a long post as you seem set in your Catholic beliefs, but will say this. Jesus was made a little lower than the angels, he humbled himself and became obedient unto death ONCE for his purpose of coming to save his sheep. His response to John’s protestation at his baptism sums this truth up perfectly where he said:

    Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. (Mat 3:15 – bold added)

    Now – that “now” Margaret is done where all the humility, submitting to men, being mocked by Pilate, beaten by men, etc. is FINISHED. Read the book of Revelation if you want a picture of the true Jesus. Just a glimpse is given below.

    And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. (Rev 5:11-14)

    This Margaret is the Jesus of the Scriptures NOW. He is not a victim being immolated on the Catholic alter nor is he hanging on a crucifix, nor do you eat him at Mass; rather he is seated in heaven in all glory and will not come back to earth until the time appointed by the Father.

    Yet unregenerate men in their religious quest need something they can touch, something they can feel, a god they can control (study history as this is always true of false religions); hence the need for a sensory religious experience replete with vestments, a priestcraft with supreme powers over their god as they are the only ones who can control and appease him, candles, incense, magical and mysterious words and a god one can literally put in their pocket and carry around like a ten cent coin.

    Even so, I recognize why you defend your beliefs as you do because Catholicism is your gateway to salvation where outside of her walls you and the other Catholics are falsely told there is no salvation. The same thing ironically that Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons are taught (even as Pilgrim noted their similarities). Hence, no matter how sound the logic, Scriptural presentation or reasoning, you will have a counter response so as to defend the citadel of Catholicism.

    Thus, our continuance in this discussion is futile for only God’s Holy Spirit can open blinded eyes and soften hardened hearts. I trust in time God will free you from your bondage to Rome even as he did unto me and countless others wherein you might find salvation in Jesus Christ alone; the one exalted in the heavens who commands you and your Catholic priests this day to repent.

  66. Jeff H says:

    Margaret Catherine,

    To toss your own question back at you, why is it you do not believe the word of God Himself? “Amen, amen, I say to you” – Jesus’ equivalent of ‘Thus says the Lord’ – “unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you shall not have life within you.” “Take, eat, this is my body…this is my blood of the new covenant.”

    Context… context… context.

    You need to work on your hermeneutics.

    Jesus also told Nicodemus, in John 3:1-21:

    1 “Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

    So did Nicodemus re-enter his mother’s womb? Is that what Jesus meant?

    Nope. Our Lord was speaking of spiritual matters. He was speaking of being “born again”. When Nicodemus missed the point, Jesus patiently clarified it for him.

    …just like He does for the Lord’s Supper (1 Corinthians 11:23-26):

    “23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.”

    Notice:

    “…Do this in remembrance of me.” (vs. 24)

    and

    “…, in remembrance of me.” (vs. 25)

    and

    “…you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.”(vs. 26)

    No cannibalism, just perfect clarity in God’s Word.

    Short of spray painting it on a billboard, I don’t know how Jesus could have made it any clearer!

    In Jesus,
    – Jeff H

    Oh, and as for the eucharist being Christ’s Body, remember:

    “you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.” (vs. 26)

    If you’re “proclaim[ing]“… “until he comes.”

    HE AIN’T THERE YET.

    Jesus CANNOT be present in the eucharist because we are (at the Lord’s Supper) “proclaim[ing] the Lord’s death until he comes.”

    So, where is He?

    Think about it. But He’s coming soon, so think quickly!

  67. Magaret,

    You did not provide any Scriptural basis for the blasphemous doctrine of commanding the Lord of Glory to come down and become a Triscuit. All you provided was your interpretation of Jewish philosophy, and a misinterpretation of John 6:63.

    Here is some more Scripture for you to think about: if the wine/juice of the Eucharist TRULY becomes BLOOD, then how does that line up with God telling the apostles–including PETER–to teach the Gentiles “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, FROM BLOOD, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well” (Acts 15:28-29). If we Gentiles are to abstain from consuming blood, how is it that Jesus would command us to do one of those things the Holy Spirit commanded us to NOT do?

    Margaret, it is not for US to prove that Christ is NOT a pile of crackers. The onus is on the Vatican, since it is a doctrine that was ADDED by Popes and councils. Whenever anything is ADDED to truth, the one doing the adding is responsible for proving their case.

    And to answer the objections you raised about Jesus obeying His parents and Caiaphas–He is not subject to ANY power anymore. 1st Corinthians 15:27–For He has put all things under His feet. But when He says all things are put under Him, it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.” Then there is Colossians 2:15–“Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.” Every power, rule, and authority is UNDER the feet of Christ, and is subject to Him. To claim that we can “command” that Jesus come down and fill our cookies is nothing different than the bla$phemie$ that are preached by the pro$perity heretic$.

    And yes, the Papacy does indeed se it as re-sacrificing Christ. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

    Paragraph 1367–“The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” “And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner…this sacrifice is truly propitiatory.”

    Paragraph 1368–“The Church which is the Body of Christ participates in the offering of her Head. With him, she herself is offered whole and entire. She unites herself to his intercession with the Father for all men. In the Eucharist the sacrifice of Christ becomes also the sacrifice of the members of his Body. The lives of the faithful, their praise, sufferings, prayer, and work, are united with those of Christ and with his total offering, and so acquire a new value. Christ’s sacrifice present on the altar makes it possible for all generations of Christians to be united with his offering.”

    So what we can see from the CCC that it is truly viewed as a sacrifice of Christ’s body, and anyone who does not see it that way is considered, by the Council of Trent, to be anathema. “If any one saith, that the sacrifice of the mass is only a sacrifice of praise and of thanksgiving; or, that it is a bare commemoration of the sacrifice consummated on the cross, but not a propitiatory sacrifice; or, that it profits him only who receives; and that it ought not to be offered for the living and the dead for sins, pains, satisfactions, and other necessities; let him be anathema.” (Trent: On the Sacrifice of the Mass: Canon 3).

    Scripture?

  68. Margaret,

    I know you were trying to be funny with the acronym comment, and that’s fine, I did get a chuckle out of it, (and I admit I do appreciate wit) but I was being serious. Deadly serious.

    Also, you said:

    Pilgrim, *I’m* still waiting for the verse that says Christ’s being seated at the right hand of the Father is exclusive of His presence in the Eucharist. There isn’t one; you’re drawing the conclusion on the basis of what you already believe.

    Again, you’re making an argument from silence. Your church is the one making this claim, so the burden of proof is on you. We’ve already clearly established that Christ is ‘at the right hand of the Father.’ To suggest (introduce new doctrine) that He turns into a cracker every week in thousands of churches is a Romish teaching, not a biblical one. So, again, the burden of proof is on you.

    I’ve also personally witnessed this invalid argumentation employed to defend many of Rome’s other teachings, (e.g. the Bible doesn’t say Mary didn’t assume into heaven so how do you know she didn’t? The Bible also doesn’t say that Mary wasn’t immaculately conceived, so how do you know she wasn’t?).

    Well, the Bible also doesn’t say that Mary didn’t have tentacles like an octopus, but I believe she did, so I’m going to build a whole new doctrine on that belief and you can’t do anything about it because, after all, the Bible doesn’t say she didn’t have tentacles. So Margaret, I’ll be “waiting for the verse that says” she didn’t.

    Now, I don’t really believe Mary had tentacles, but do you see the fallacy of your argument? If you don’t, it’s ok, because I’m certain most readers do.

    As for me drawing conclusions on the basis of what I already believe, I would argue that my conclusions come from the very Word of God and it’s you who is guilty of the very thing you’re accusing me of.

    The Scriptures have been very beneficial in helping me shed the previous erroneous beliefs I was fed (that I held to) from my early Roman Catholic days and later my Charismatic days. It wasn’t until I relied solely on God’s revealed Word for truth, that all those traditions of men (Romish and Charismatic) withered and died on the poisonous tree of my life from whence they came.

    The Bible has a wonderful way of turning people from heresy and to the Truth. No wonder why the Church of Rome tortured and murdered those who desired to possess a Bible in their own language. Without it we’d be left to blindly follow whatever the pope or other RC leaders tell us, and that Margaret, is exactly how the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses keep their people in subjection.

    – The Pilgrim

  69. Fourpointer – Well, that misinterpretation was still a Scriptural basis, no? Just not one you agree with… :)

    “And to answer the objections you raised about Jesus obeying His parents and Caiaphas–He is not subject to ANY power anymore.”

    Be that as it may, you’re shifting the argument, at least as I understood it from Michael – the Jesus of the Bible, that we read of in Scripture, *did* submit Himself to men. Whether He still does, well, that’s another question.

    As to the Mass, of course it is a sacrifice. But it is *the* Sacrifice of Calvary, united to it and one and the same with it. Reread those CCC passages, they are saying exactly that. The “Jewish philosophy” I gave you is important context for Scripture, and for understanding how the Mass can be what it is.

    Your quote from Acts is a good point, one I don’t have an off-hand answer to. (Again, I don’t keep lists of verses ready to hand, so give me time to look at that one.)

    *************************************

    Pilgrim – I would stare at anyone who gave either of those arguments regarding Mary; someone seriously tried them on you? Ouch!

    The scribes Pharisees were “seated on the chair of Moses”; i.e., they possessed his authority, and Christ Himself commanded obedience to them. Jesus would go up on the mountain and sit down; in other words He would assume the teaching authority of a rabbi. The mother of James and John requested that they be seated at Christ’s right and left – again a claim to power, which the other Apostles didn’t take kindly to. Being seated at the right hand of the Father, therefore, refers to Christ assuming once more His rightful authority and power, not to some sort of physical placement. Of course He is in Heaven; He is also, through His ‘once and for all’ Sacrifice that we make present at Mass, in the Eucharist. For my backing of that, see what I’ve said above…it’s an eternal reality, eternally able to save us (something we both agree on?); at Mass we participate in it.
    ****************************************
    Since I have an unexpected evening off from work, let me try to repost something (taking up what Lyn said about faith and works) that would not go through yesterday.

    But first – Brother Michael, I hope you’ll reconsider about continuing the discussion. No, neither of us is likely to convince the other, but I am interested in learning what it is you believe and why, and I’m grateful for the chance to examine what it is I believe. It is the Holy Spirit who softens hearts, but very often He works through us to do that, and very seldom does He do it all in a moment. So…who knows? :)

    (On the subject of “sodomite priests”…I KNOW. Believe me that I do. My nephew was abused, though not by a priest; he wasn’t able to deal with it, never told anyone, but turned around and abused his younger sister and brother. Believe me that the sexual abuse scandal pushed me to the edge of rejecting my faith, and Christ with it: I’ve never wanted so badly to have done with it all – nor, in the same moment, realized how deeply I need “it all”.)

    **************************************

    To Lyn and Shane:

    Quite honestly, ‘faith and works’ is a non-issue to me.(Biblical reasoning to follow). Vatican II removed much of the dogmatism instituted by Trent; it was necessary at the time but no longer is.

    In the Old Testament, we have the constant drumbeat command to care for the widow, the stranger, and the alien. In the New Testament, we have James saying that faith without works is dead; we have Paul telling us that both faith and works must be informed by love, or neither amounts to anything; we have Christ Himself commanding the Pharisees to “go and learn the meaning of the words, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice’” – mercy being necessarily a matter of both attitude and action. How faith and works and love interplay to effect our salvation, what the deciding factor is, I don’t know; and as a practical matter I don’t see that it makes a difference. If we live as Christ commanded, if we love God and neighbor and “seek first the Kingdom”, all the rest will come – the details are up to God.

  70. Jeff H says:

    Margaret Catherine,

    In my post above I made the case that the Lord’s Supper is “in remembrance of Christ’s death.” I was responding directly to one of your posts.

    You never replied… and I would really like to know how the RCC church resolves this dilemma.

    You said:

    To toss your own question back at you, why is it you do not believe the word of God Himself? “Amen, amen, I say to you” – Jesus’ equivalent of ‘Thus says the Lord’ – “unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you shall not have life within you.” “Take, eat, this is my body…this is my blood of the new covenant.”

    I stated (concerning the Lord’s Supper):

    (1 Corinthians 11:23-26):

    “23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.”

    Notice:

    “…Do this in remembrance of me.” (vs. 24)

    and

    “…, in remembrance of me.” (vs. 25)

    and

    “…you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.”(vs. 26)

    I also wrote:

    Oh, and as for the eucharist being Christ’s Body, remember:

    “you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.” (vs. 26)

    If you’re “proclaim[ing]” … “until he comes.”

    HE AIN’T THERE YET.

    Jesus CANNOT be present in the eucharist because we are (at the Lord’s Supper) “proclaim[ing] the Lord’s death until he comes.”

    So, where is He?

    Again, I really would like to know!

    Thank you,
    – Jeff H

  71. carolw says:

    I liked your post Pilgrim, it mirrored much of my experience.
    I married an RC and rolled out of it years ago, there’s no salvation in that outfit, you did right by posting your article.

    I think Margaret is just a ‘concern troll’.

  72. Hi Shane,

    The gospel of Protestants and Rome are mutually exclusive. At least one of the groups will end up in hell, because they have a false gospel (Gal. 1:8-9).

    The gospel of Rome says that you are infused with righteousness when you are saved. This allows you to do good works for the rest of your life, which you must do to maintain your salvation. Any sin that hasn’t been properly dealt with will be burned away in purgatory after death. After a lifetime of good works, and who knows how long in purgatory, you’re perfect and you can enter heaven.

    The biblical gospel says that Jesus paid for my past, present and future sins on the cross. I was imputed (given) Jesus’ righteousness. Every single one of my sins deserves an infinite penalty; I have no ability to make an infinite payment. When God saves us, we are transformed from a thorn bush to a fruit tree (Matt. 7). We go from bearing thorns and thistles to bearing fruit. We don’t bear fruit to get saved, we bear fruit because we are saved, and we go straight to heaven when we die, because we are perfect, i.e. perfectly forgiven. You’ll notice this was all dependent on Jesus Christ, and not ourselves. You are commanded to repent (stop trusting your own good works) and place your faith completely in Jesus.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  73. @Bill
    sounds like Charles Finney might have borrowed a little from the Catholics because he believed that we are not imputed the righteousness of Christ.

    “You are commanded to repent (stop trusting your own good works) and place your faith completely in Jesus. ”

    Which is what worries me about some of my family members that are still stuck in the pent/char movement. They are trusting in their works. I have tried to talk with them about it but I got this reply “I don’t want to know any different”. I think that comment shows that there is some pride issues that need to be dealt with.

    On a side note. I put in a different email address than I normally use when commenting. It gave me a new avatar. I like this one better. He looks cool and not so angry : )

  74. Shane, it’s because he has sunglasses to hide the cross-eyed stare. :)

    ****

    Jeff – We just don’t see it as a dilemma. At Mass, the words the priest uses are the exact words of Christ at the Last Supper, ending with the command to “do this in memory of me.” We, the congregation, then respond with one of several prayers – one of them is that verse from Paul. ‘Until He comes’ refers to the Second Coming – something you and I both look towards. (I’ve said above what was meant, in the Jewish faith, by ‘remembrance'; there’s much more to the concept than translates readily into English, and it answers the apparent contradiction.)

    ****

    Shane – What must you do to be saved? Believe in the Lord Jesus and be baptized for the forgiveness of sin; confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead; persevere to the end; not merely say ‘Lord, Lord’ but do the will of the Father; eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, (or you shall not have life within you); live out the command of Matthew 25:34-40.

    Of course I believe that it is in and through the Catholic Church and her Sacraments that these are lived out in full, and that we have the same commission as all Christians to go and make disciples. But I also recognize that the Sabbath is made for man and not man for the Sabbath, that God has mercy on those whom He wills, and that attempting to determine who is and is not bound for heaven is just going to get us judged according to the same measure.

  75. “Shane – What must you do to be saved? Believe in the Lord Jesus and be baptized for the forgiveness of sin; confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead; persevere to the end; not merely say ‘Lord, Lord’ but do the will of the Father; eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, (or you shall not have life within you); live out the command of Matthew 25:34-40. ”

    Here is where I would agree.
    “Believe in the Lord Jesus”
    “confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead; persevere to the end; not merely say ‘Lord, Lord’ but do the will of the Father”

    My answer on water baptism can be found here:http://new5pointer.blogspot.com/2010/01/is-water-baptism-necessary-to-be-saved.html

    As far as communion I would recommend but not say it is necessary. I would ask the believer that refuses to take it “why they refuse?” because I think it would reveal issues that need to be dealt with.

  76. I felt that it looked like my blood pressure may be a little high. I never noticed the crossed eyes until M.C. pointed it out. I still remain just as passionate. Maybe if I could get sunglasses on my other avatar?????

  77. Margaret, you say, ‘Of course I believe that it is in and through the Catholic Church and her Sacraments that these are lived out in full, and that we have the same commission as all Christians to go and make disciples. But I also recognize that the Sabbath is made for man and not man for the Sabbath, that God has mercy on those whom He wills, and that attempting to determine who is and is not bound for heaven is just going to get us judged according to the same measure.’
    First of all, you do not believe Christ when He said, ‘It is finished’? You insist the RCC and her sacraments MUST be added to bring all to completion…will you be so kind as to back your view with biblical proof? You believe the RCC has the correct teachings of the scripture, but, have you sincerely sought God’s wisdom OUTSIDE of your church’s teachings? Have you compared these teachings with what the bible actually says, studying for yourself the word of God with the understanding His word is the only sole authority on who He is, what His will is, how salvation is truly given {by grace, not works}, etc.?
    It would seem you are not comfortable with the finished work Christ has done, you follow extra-biblical tradition to ‘shore up’ your so-called salvation.
    As for ‘determining’ who is and isn’t bound for heaven, who here is attempting to do this? Do you understand Christ when He said, ‘you will know them by their fruit’?

    You continue to post here with NO biblical backing for anything you state, just man-made traditions of a man-made religion. All cults teach the same things, salvation is obtained through some form of a work, i.e., baptism, the sacraments, decisionism, and so on and so forth.
    I am going to be as lovingly kind as I can be…you will die and go to hell if you continue to reject the truth of what scripture teaches, salvation is NOT given through any work of man. Salvation is all of grace, given as God’s gift to all who humble themselves before Him and cry out for mercy. Those who see themselves as they TRULY are, unworthy, vile, wicked sinners who’ve never done anything except sin against a Holy God, and are crushed by the truth of their sinful ways; these are the very ones God saves. The fact that sinners must be born again, or born from above, is not something any church can do. Only God can change a dead sinner from the inside out {A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.-Ezekiel 36:26,27} A regenerated sinner is evident by living a changed life, which is why Christ said ‘you will know them by their fruit’. From 2 Corinthians 5:17, ‘Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. ‘ This is what is known as the doctrine of regeneration, or evidence that God has truly ‘re-birthed’ the lost sinner.
    All of mankind is dead in trespasses and sins and unable to respond to the Gospel until God draws the lost sinner to Christ {John 6:44}. God brings the sinner to Christ, breaking them over their sins, bringing them to repentance, and saving their souls. This is biblical salvation; it does not include tradition, baptism, or rituals as a means of being/staying saved.
    You can name the name of Christ all day every day, but, if your heart has not been changed by God and your life does not reflect the power of God, you are merely giving lip service.

    Question for you Margaret, what about the thief on the cross? Christ told him, ‘today, you will be with me in paradise’. How is that possible? He never was baptized, he never partook of the bread and the cup, he performed no ritual, held to no tradition…he certainly was not a Roman Catholic, so how was he saved?

  78. Margaret Catherine,

    I’ve read through this entire exchange, and I’ve carefully read some of your responses more than once. I point this out to demonstrate that I’ve exerted effort to give you a “fair hearing”, in your own words.

    If I may, I’d like to ask you a question. Do you suspend the welfare of your eternal soul directly, without any intermediaries at all, upon the grace of God alone, or do you suspend the welfare of your eternal soul directly upon “the universal salvific mediation of the [Roman Catholic] Church”?

    Or to put it a bit differently, do you trust your soul to immediate grace, or intermediate grace?

    In Christ,
    CD

  79. Jeff H says:

    Margaret Catherine,

    Jeff – We just don’t see it as a dilemma. At Mass, the words the priest uses are the exact words of Christ at the Last Supper, ending with the command to “do this in memory of me.” We, the congregation, then respond with one of several prayers – one of them is that verse from Paul. ‘Until He comes’ refers to the Second Coming – something you and I both look towards.

    You never answered: SO WHERE IS HE?

    Where is Jesus Christ during your mass?

    If Christ is indeed seated at the Right Hand of the Father, then are you waiting for Jesus’ 2nd Coming, or His 1,000,006th? You see, your theological morass implodes because it is a house of cards built on sand.

    (I’ve said above what was meant, in the Jewish faith, by ‘remembrance’; there’s much more to the concept than translates readily into English, and it answers the apparent contradiction.)

    Are you kidding me? Where in the world did you study Hebrew? Where did you study Greek? Where did you study Aramaic? What references can you cite (from the original Scripture) to validate your argument? Your reply makes no sense whatsoever, I’m sorry. Your scholarship has been weighed and found wanting.

    If, however, you ‘made it up’, then you are being dishonest and must repent.

    Also, since you have painted yourself into a corner, please don’t feed me the default RCC reply one gives when he is challenged on any anti-Scriptural, self-contradictory knot he has woven himself into, that “…it’s a mystery.”

    God spoke plainly in His Word, but your pope and priest have blinded you to the simplicity of the Gospel.

    You seem to be unable to make your case on ANY point with Scripture…

    My question to you remains un-answered.

    In Christ,
    – Jeff H

  80. Coram – Intermdiate grace – with the understanding that there is no grace that does not come from God through Christ Jesus.

    Lyn – almost every sentence clause of my comment to Shane was a verse of Scripture. I don’t know chapter and verse, so I can’t help you much if you don’t recognize them. I can’t help you at all if you insist on fighting the Council of Trent, 500 years in the past, and neither understand nor care about the changes that have taken place in how Catholics understand and express their faith. Any decently informed Catholic will agree with you on certain points where you seemed to expect disgreement. You do not know the Catholic Church of now and today, you know a caricatured version of what was – five centuries ago.

    Jeff, similarly. “are you waiting for Jesus’ 2nd Coming, or His 1,000,006th?” is on the level of asking “Can God create a stick with only one end?” If it were really so blindingly obvious, don’t you think we’d have noticed by now? Don’t you think that in all those years we had the Bible to ourselves, ahead of the Reformation, we’d have fixed that embarrassing little problem? Jesus is fully present in the Eucharist. He is fully present in Heaven. I’ve said this a couple of times. I’ve said something of how that is possible – also a couple of times. Any Christian who does not at some point fall back on “it’s a mystery” doesn’t know his own faith – unless you’d like to explain the inner workings of the Trinity to the rest of us. ;)

    You haven’t “tested my scholarship”, you’ve mocked it – evidently since you’ve never heard the idea before. Languages often translate intro each other imperfectly . The Hebrew word for remembrance, ‘zekar’, is a perfect example. Another example is Jesus’ “exclaiming” in praise of the Father; He didn’t “exclaim” but gave a ‘jubelruf’, a ‘joyful shout’. We do lose some of the richness of the text in translation – but we lose far more if we insist on pretending that ancient Hebrew is just transliterated English, that the people who spoke it had all the same cultural notions we do, and that any other idea is somehow hostile to Scripture.

    Anyways. Back to the Scripture project that is *supposed* to be why I’m up at 2 am.

  81. Jeff H says:

    Jeff, similarly. “are you waiting for Jesus’ 2nd Coming, or His 1,000,006th?” is on the level of asking “Can God create a stick with only one end?”

    Strawman.

    If it were really so blindingly obvious, don’t you think we’d have noticed by now? Don’t you think that in all those years we had the Bible to ourselves, ahead of the Reformation, we’d have fixed that embarrassing little problem?

    Bait and switch with strawman.

    Jesus is fully present in the Eucharist. He is fully present in Heaven.

    Unsubstantiated drivel.

    I’ve said this a couple of times. I’ve said something of how that is possible – also a couple of times. Any Christian who does not at some point fall back on “it’s a mystery”

    Where are your Scriptural references to support your claim. You NEVER give any.

    doesn’t know his own faith – unless you’d like to explain the inner workings of the Trinity to the rest of us. ;)

    Ad Hominem attack.

    You haven’t “tested my scholarship”, you’ve mocked it –

    Nope. I’ve challenged you on it. I want you to cite your sources. You never answered my questions concerning your language qualifications. Whence comes your scholarship. Unless you tell us, your repetition of personal opinion means nothing.

    evidently since you’ve never heard the idea before.

    Argument from silence. Fail.

    Languages often translate intro each other imperfectly . The Hebrew word for remembrance, ‘zekar’, is a perfect example. Another example is Jesus’ “exclaiming” in praise of the Father; He didn’t “exclaim” but gave a ‘jubelruf’, a ‘joyful shout’.

    Fail. Is this a joke? ‘jubelruf’ is Yiddish, not Hebrew!

    Your pope blew that one too!

    Also, where are you getting this from (Bible Book, Chapter, Verse)?

    Is this OT? Where?

    Is this NT? You sure it’s Hebrew and not Greek or Aramaic?

    Fail.

    We do lose some of the richness of the text in translation – but we lose far more if we insist on pretending that ancient Hebrew is just transliterated English, that the people who spoke it had all the same cultural notions we do, and that any other idea is somehow hostile to Scripture.

    Strawman.

    Also, with a broad brush, you proclaim ‘rich original language’, which is true, but you mix a little truth and a lot of smoke together to reach this conclusion.

    I will not educate you. I want to know your qualifications. Until you tell us, your ‘scholarship’ is rejected.

  82. Jeff H says:

    My post should say ” ‘jubelruf’ is German… somehow, ‘Yiddish’ came out.

    However, Margaret Catherine, German is my first language, so don’t read anything into the ‘typo’.

    Vielen Dank!
    – Jeff H

  83. Jeff – yep, thought so. Hard to question someone else’s “credentials” when you have none of your own, isn’t it? :) (A year’s worth of Biblical Hebrew, for the record, and several classes on the Old and New Testaments in the course of a theology degree. But it’s a Catholic telling you that, so you might want to be suspicious of the claim.)

  84. “Shane – What must you do to be saved? Believe in the Lord Jesus and be baptized for the forgiveness of sin;”

    Acts16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    Acts16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    Notice Paul doesn’t say to believe and be baptized. He just says believe to be saved.

    Acts13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
    Acts13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

    Rev1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

    1Cor1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

    If water baptism is necessary for salvation then Paul is not preaching it and we have a problem. If he is leaving out part of what is necessary for salvation then he is a false teacher. So is Paul a false teacher? You will not find Paul preaching or teaching any thing other than faith for salvation.

    What is the gospel that Paul preached?

    1Cor15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
    1Cor15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    1Cor15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    1Cor15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

    “confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead;”

    Rom10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
    Rom10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    Rom10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    Rom10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
    Rom10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
    Rom10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Notice again, Paul doesn’t add water baptism or any other works as being necessary for salvation. That confession

    “persevere to the end;”
    1Jn2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
    1Jn2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

    A true believer will persevere to the end and will not leave the faith.

    “not merely say ‘Lord, Lord’ but do the will of the Father;”

    Mat7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    Mat7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    Mat7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    These people thought that their works would save them. They are even boasting about them in verse 22.

    John6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
    John6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    “ eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, (or you shall not have life within you);”

    I will stick with the other answers on this subject that have already been given in this post.

    “live out the command of Matthew 25:34-40.”

    Help the brothers in need. If a person is truly a believer then they will help those in need. It is not to earn salvation it is because of salvation.

    Rom5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
    Rom5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
    Rom5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    Rom5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
    Rom5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
    Rom5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

    True saving faith will have works flow from it. True saving faith is not works trying to earn salvation.

    1Tim2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

  85. Margaret, I find it suspiciously amusing how you NEVER answer directly, or indirectly certain questions posed to you. Also, be careful of your bragging about your ‘knowledge’, remember this, God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise. If you are trusting in the Council of Trent for wisdom, you’ll fall way short. It is God in Spirit who teaches His children, not a group of men who’ve decided in days gone by what they think the bible says.

    Now, I will repeat my question to you, -Question for you Margaret, what about the thief on the cross? Christ told him, ‘today, you will be with me in paradise’. How is that possible? He never was baptized, he never partook of the bread and the cup, he performed no ritual, held to no tradition…he certainly was not a Roman Catholic, so how was he saved?

    I also wonder why you avoided Coram’s question as well, let me re-post it for you…I’ve read through this entire exchange, and I’ve carefully read some of your responses more than once. I point this out to demonstrate that I’ve exerted effort to give you a “fair hearing”, in your own words.

    If I may, I’d like to ask you a question. Do you suspend the welfare of your eternal soul directly, without any intermediaries at all, upon the grace of God alone, or do you suspend the welfare of your eternal soul directly upon “the universal salvific mediation of the [Roman Catholic] Church”?

    Or to put it a bit differently, do you trust your soul to immediate grace, or intermediate grace?
    In Christ,
    CD

    I must INSIST you use God’s word strictly for your rebuttal, not Roman Catholic teachings, history, dogma, etc. If you claim to be a follower of Christ, then His word is the only source of truth needed to refute lies, right? If you agree, then spare the readers at DefCon the fancy smancy big word, long-winded responses you’ve been spewing out, and expound the word of God as you respond.

    As I scroll back through your posts, I do not find one time where you backed any of your views with God’s word. This is as close as you got, ‘The entire Lenten cycle of Old Testament, Epistle, and Gospel readings, over 40 days’ worth, read again and again. The constant call to repentence, remembrance of the Covenant, mercy towards the widow, the stranger and the alien. Love of God and love of neighbor, and everything else coming from that.’
    This statement was so vague, it doesn’t even hold water to your claims. You string together bits and pieces of God’s word, mixing just enough truth with your doctrines of demons to try and sound convincing…but there are no takers here.
    I will give you an opportunity to respond to the questions I and Coram have asked, but in all honesty, you have worn out your welcome here. You may answer and post one last time, but thereafter, your posts will not be welcome here.

  86. Jeff H says:

    yep, thought so. Hard to question someone else’s “credentials” when you have none of your own, isn’t it?

    I have none of my own? And you know this how?

    Nice smokescreen again, though. This is laughable. You gave two examples (words, with no citations) and they were both orphans. One was an out of context ‘zekar’ , and the other, “‘jubelruf’, a ‘joyful shout’”, is German!

    If you really are a biblical language scholar, you failed! But, what’s one more lie, right?

    Sorry, I think you need to go back to school or at least להישאר ער this time.

    Say it with Scripture or don’t say it at all!

    In Christ (alone),
    – Jeff H

  87. Your quote from Acts is a good point, one I don’t have an off-hand answer to. (Again, I don’t keep lists of verses ready to hand, so give me time to look at that one.)

    It’s really simple, actually. Either the bread and wine/juice are simply instruments by which we remember our Lord’s sacrifice on Calvary (The reason He said, “Do this in remembrance of Me” and not “Do this to keep My sacrifice going“) or the wine/juice actually turns into blood, which is drunk by the participants in violation of the Holy Spirit’s directions to the Jerusalem Council.

    Second, as far as the Eucharist: As to the Mass, of course it is a sacrifice. But it is *the* Sacrifice of Calvary, united to it and one and the same with it. Reread those CCC passages, they are saying exactly that. This line of thinking goes against what is spelled out clearly in Scripture. Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say that the act of Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary is continued. In fact, we have the very words of Christ Himself. John 19:30–“IT IS FINISHED!” Complete. Done. It is not an ongoing process. He did it. He finished it. He completed it. We don’t keep it going by confining Him to a pile of crackers. We who believe in Christ continue to receive the benefits of that sacrifice–but the act of His death on the cross was a one-time event.

    Furthermore, we are not “united” to that act by eating of the Lord’s Table–we are united by our faith in Christ. Consider what Paul said in Ephesians 5:30-32–“For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.’ This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.” This is what Paul is saying here: when a man and woman are joined in marriage, it is a one-time act. They do not continue to perform the wedding ceremony on a daily basis. It was performed once, and its effects are continued (hopefully) until they die (“‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'”). The same is true with Christ’s work on Calvary. It was performed once, but we will see the effects until the last person ever is saved (“This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church”).

    The RCC considers the Didache (written around 160-180 AD) to be included in the writings of the (quote-unquote) “Apostolic Fathers.” Listen to what it says about the Eucharist: “Thou, Almighty Master, didst create all things for Thy name’s sake, and didst give food and drink unto men for enjoyment, that they might render thanks to Thee; but didst bestow upon us spiritual food and drink and eternal life through Thy Son” (Didache, 10:4-5). This early writing clearly shows that the early church did not interpret Jesus’ message in the passage in John 6 to mean that we are to eat/drink the literal flesh/blood of Christ, but rather Jesus was talking in spiritual terms.

    This idea is backed up by Scripture–
    Hebrews 9:24-25–For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another.
    Hebrews 8:4-5–For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle.

    Do you see what the writer of Hebrews is saying? Christ’s ONE sacrifice was performed once, was completed, and He now sits at the right hand of God. Again, Hebrews 8:4–If He were on earth… Obviously, He is NOT on earth, and therefore CANNOT be in the bread/wine.

  88. Margaret,

    I plead with you to consider the Scriptrue that is laid out before you in these previous comments.

    There is much truth in what has been written above.

    Consider it.

  89. revivalandreformation says:

    Matthew 26.26 “And as they were eating , Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said , Take , eat ; this is my body.”

    Has anyone heard of a figure of speech?

    I will quote some of what my Bible states in the appendixes:

    A figure of speech consists of a word or words used out of the ordinary sense, or order: “It’s raining cats and dogs” or “That guy is as strong as an ox”…etc. A figure of speech attracts the reader’s attention to what is being spoken. “The doctrine of the Pharisees is like leaven.” This is the fig. of speech called simile. Had He said the doctrine of the Pharisees is leaven, then that would have been the fig. of speech called Metaphor. The one thing is the other, rather than like the other. When Jesus said beware of the leaven, He actually meant beware of the doctrine which is like leaven.

    “This is My body” is the fig. Metaphor: and the figure lies in the verb IS., which as in this case always means “represents”, and must always be expressed thus. It can never mean “is changed into”. Hence in the fig. Metaphor, the verb “represents” can always be substituted for the word IS. Such as:

    Matthew 13. 38: “The field is(or represents) the world…”

    Matt. 13. 38: ” …the good seed are (represent) the children of the kingdom; but the tares are(represent) the children of the wicked one;”

    Rev. 17.9: “The seven heads are(represents) seven mountains…”

    1 Cor. 10.16: ” The cup of blessing which we bless , is it not(does it not represent) the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break , is it not(does it not represent) the communion of the body of Christ?”

    Furthermore it is a fundamental law in Greek grammar, without exception, that the article, pronoun, and adjective must agree in gender to the noun with which they refer. For example, in Matt. 16.18, the pronoun “this” is feminine, and thus agrees with Petra, which is also feminine, and not with Petros (Peter), which is masculine.
    So here: the pronoun “this” is neuter, and cannot agree with artos (bread), because artos is masculine. It must refer to what is neuter: and this could only be the whole act of breaking the bread, which would be neuter also, or to klasma, the broken piece, which is also neuter.
    In like manner, when He said, (in v. 28) “this is My blood of the New Covenant”; “this” being neuter, refers to poterion (cup) and not to oinos (wine), which is masculine and means “This [cup] represents My blood of the New Covenant, which is poured out for many, for remission of sins”.

    Now “blood” was shed, and sacrificially used, only in connection with two things: the making of a covenant, and the making of atonement. In the former, the victim which made or ratified the covenant was slain and the body divided in two, the parties to the covenant passing between. As long as the victim(the covenant-maker) was alive, the covenant could have no force.

    In the Last Supper, the Lord was not instituting anything with a view to the secret (the “Mystery” yet to be revealed in the prison Epistles); but was substituting bread and wine for the Paschal Lamb(the type being exhausted in the antitype), because of the new meaning in which the Passover was to convey.

    Let us put away once and for all traditions of men. The Bible is clearly written and is open for those who want to take time to discover its Truth. One cannot discover its Truth however, if the one does not have the Holy Spirit opening his eyes. This I would assume is Margaret’s problem. This is why I imagine Margaret has not been changed whatsoever by all of the above documentation and evidence. The grace is given through God because of Christ’s sacrifice, not anything any man could ever do. There is no go between except Christ. He is our Advocate, our High Priest, He is our go between. Period. It is a shame and a slap in His face to bow to a man who claims to be His Emissary. Why would you want to have someone take Christ’s place? To bow to a mere man and ask for forgiveness? Shame! The communion is a memorial, an event that we celebrate in REMEMBRANCE of Christ’s sacrifice. Jesus was crucified once, His blood was shed once, and He died once. It is distasteful to reenact His torture and death. It is distasteful to drink someone’s blood and eat their flesh, this isn’t a faith and lifestyle of cannibals, if that was the case, then the cannibals of Africa along with the Mayans were closer to God than we are. God detests the cults where His people sacrificed their children to the enemy. He abhorred His people falling into the practices and abominations of the pagan countries around them. Roman Catholicism has much to answer for. They have duped many into working for their salvation and living lives that as long as you have confessional, then you are justified in your behaviour. Jesus demands holiness and self-sacrifice for those who follow Him. I have met some of the worst sinners who claimed to be Christian who were later reported to be Catholic. There is a difference between us Margaret, and understand this: You are serving a god that you and your church have created in YOUR own image, whom you can control and manipulate as you please. This is why Christ is still on the cross in your religion. He is controllable there. I am serving God who is sovereign and all powerful and rules the universe. He controls me. He direct me. He is risen from the dead and alive. He is not on the cross any longer. He is the BOSS. He demands obedience, faithfulness and loyalty and if we are not willing to pay the price for this “life”, then we will be hurled into an ever stoked hell by the hand of an angry and incensed God and no prayers for the dead will save one out of this eternal punishment.

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