Ok now you said: “Can you be more specific about what you mean by this (and provide some Scriptural reference for this as well)?” What I mean is that I want my music to encourage Christians to fight against the worldly rebellion against God and to stand up for their faith. (Isn’t that what this site is about?) Matthew 24:9-13 talks about being a Christian will mean people are going to hate you from all nations but to stand strong. That’s what my music is all about to inspire people to follow God despite the hate. “But what’s really disturbing is that you (as a professing Christian) keep referencing how these extra-biblical “things” keep inspiring you, but what about God and His Word?” I have been inspired by God and his word many, many times. I unfortunately was angry at the time because of some personal matters and didn’t really think to make note of this. “Well, when the author of that article can find a church that focuses that much on hymns at the exclusion of Christ and His gospel, then I’ll address that.” Well unfortunately I have heard of people who boast how “We keep the hymns!” and believe that what they do is “true worship” It’s really sad that we’ve allowed such bickering to go on about such a petty issue. “Well you have rejected Scripture regarding the importance of preaching (Romans 10:14-15) for a quaint saying found on Hallmark cards?” I never intended to reject the importance of preaching, rather I was trying to say that God can use things (usually very strange) to open some one’s heart to the gospel. “Wow. Are you serious? That’s a stretch. I mean a really big stretch. Look up the words “context” and “hermeneutics” to better understand why I am amazed at your stretch.” I looked up those words and really Psalm 150 is quite a straightforward scripture and it’d be hard to misinterpret it. I was trying to say that Scripture supports the use of rock music whether or not they’d like to admit it. Some people use the “We should be separate from the world not apart of it!” argument (James 4:4 I think) when really we are! Christian music is completely separate from secular “CCM” and those artists that have broken out into the mainstream had to fight tooth and nail to do so. I mean when Skillet first got a new record company and started to hit secular radios there were some stations didn’t play them because they knew that Skillet was Christian! I even found a small website devoted to hating on Skillet saying that Rock is about “life, not unicorns in fairy tale land!” You also stated: “One is predominantly Scripture saturated (meat); one is feel-good style over substance (junk food).” I beg to differ. Alot of the songs I hear on the radio deal with more than just “happy clappy” (I have to agree alot of the music is though too. But I don’t like that style music anyways) An artist (I think Brandon Heath) sang a song about how he lives his life the way he wants and prays to God in that song to open his eyes to what God wants him to do (Anything but happy clappy) TobyMac sang the song “Lose my Soul” which talks about (like Jesus said) living to not gain the whole world and lose his soul but instead follow God and his will. Sanctus Real sang the song called “Lead Me” which is about a man asking God to show him how to lead his family according to God’s will. All on similar subjects but very difficult to swallow. (I’ve have felt God tugging on me to follow him when I wasn’t living for him when those songs came on. It’s hard!) And again with the Catholic thing, both family members read the gospel alot and follow the Catholic ways loosely. My Grandma even goes to a Protestent church the only she does is say the roseary. (My Great Grandma has limited mobility so can’t go to church very often) Now can you expand upon the “CCM is steeped in a false doctrine” please I don’t get what you mean exactly. Thank you for your time!

Ack I messed up! I meant to put “Christian music is completely apart from secular music hence, “CCM” ” not “secular CCM” ” Sorry! (PS If you want to see the lyrics to those songs I wrote about I’ll be happy to give you the lyrics!) Thanks for your time!(again)

“Pilgrim thanks for commenting but I wanna ask a question: Are you trying to guilt me into not playing music because CCM is a “golden calf” of idolatry?”

Nope. I was actually making a general blanket statement about the issue, not directing it specifically to you. But if you do feel any guilt about it, then praise God, perhaps He’s working on your heart.

“And like I said in a comment before there a TON of hymns that don’t mention Jesus.”

I never said anything about this. And I would argue that it’s not the absence of the name Jesus in Contemporary Christian Music that’s the problem, it’s the presentation of a false Jesus of CCM that’s most disturbing.

“that’s what I want my my [sic] music to be about, inspiring people who feel hated by the world to stand up and fight the world!”

Can you be more specific about what you mean by this (and provide some Scriptural reference for this as well)?

“And the Holy Spirit has guess what: touched me and helped me through tough times by allowing a certain (oh my goodness!) CCM or even a secular song to be played at that time!”

Laying aside your snarky and condescending tone, please be aware that people are “inspired” by things all the time, that doesn’t in and of itself mean it’s from God. But what’s really disturbing is that you (as a professing Christian) keep referencing how these extra-biblical “things” keep inspiring you, but what about God and His Word? How come nary a word about those the very things that have “inspired” Christians since the beginning of the church (as well Christians today under fierce persecution)?

“I also read that article you posted and I read comments and to all those who think music is becoming such an idol: well CCM is to blame for that isn’t it? None of those hymns have anything to do with it? Yes they do! If you don’t like the way music is becoming an idol in the church why do you still sing hymns? They’re music too!”

Well, when the author of that article can find a church that focuses that much on hymns at the exclusion of Christ and His gospel, then I’ll address that. But until then, you’re blame shifting and diversion hold no water. Music is not inherently an idol till one makes it so. Any good and perfect gift can be made into an idol. So please don’t waste your time with the hymns-are-bad straw man argument.

“All the music you presented in that article seemed to be ‘contemporary’ style churches. So again more CCM hating.”

I wouldn’t have an issue (or an argument) if CCM wasn’t almost completely void of Scripture and doctrine. Conversely, most hymns are similar to a sermon in their copious doctrinal content. Today’s “positive and encouraging” happy, clappy music is more like the world it seeks to mimic than the God it claims to represent.

“And the reason why music has become such an important part of the church is because music has become an important part of people’s lives (especially young people) and people can connect through music.”

Ah, the man-centered gospel where it’s all about us rears its ugly head again. Perhaps music has become such an idol because it relieves us of having to study His Word, yet allows us to retain some semblance of a Christian life. Or perhaps it’s because CCM appeals to our flesh and we love to feed our flesh whenever we can (none of that crazy dying to self stuff for us modern Christians).

“I don’t say it’s right to make the church a stage but I don’t think it’s wrong to play contemporary music.”

I agree and I agree. The church is not a stage (for entertainment), and there’s nothing wrong with contemporary music if it’s God honoring and doctrinally sound.

“I also think that music is a tool that God can use to work in people’s lives and even to reach lost people. (I don’t want to hear “the only way God reaches people is through preaching”. Have you ever heard the saying “The Lord works in mysterious ways”? Well music is one of them.)”

Well you have rejected Scripture regarding the importance of preaching (Romans 10:14-15) for a quaint saying found on Hallmark cards? What exactly do you stand on for your foundation for truth?

“Also if you think “Christian Rock is evil” read Psalm 150. It says at the end to praise God with string instruments (guitars) and loud cymbals (cymbals are on a drum set) so the Bible says to praise God with, basically, Rock music!”

Wow. Are you serious? That’s a stretch. I mean a really big stretch. Look up the words “context” and “hermeneutics” to better understand why I am amazed at your stretch.

“Sorry for the rant but seriously I think the whole CCM hating is getting out of hand because people who glorify hymns are just as bad as people who glorify contemporary music.”

One is predominantly Scripture saturated (meat); one is feel-good style over substance (junk food). Oh, and please stop with the “hate” allegations. I grow so weary when anytime anyone opposes anything they’re automatically considered hateful. If you oppose illegal immigration then you must “hate” immigrants. If you oppose tax hikes, then you must “hate” old people and little kids. Can you dislike your friend’s rival sports team without you “hating” that sports team? Sure you can. So let’s stop with the inflammatory allegations.

“(PS I find a lot of Catholic hating on this site to be offensive because both my Grandma and Great Grandma are Catholics and they also believe in Jesus as their Savior”

Were Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, Jude, etc. Jew haters because they opposed the false works-righteousness Hebrew religion? I am sorry that the truth about Romanism offends you, but it doesn’t make it any less truthful. I too have Romanist family, but the Bible is very clear on who Jesus is and what the gospel is, so it doesn’t matter how many of my family members are in false religions, I will not diminish the severity of their error in order to help me sleep at night. It’s the very fact that Romanists have lived and died in my family that I am so passionate about exposing Rome for what it is. I also have other family that are Mormons who “believe in Jesus as their Savior.” Problem is the Jesus of Mormonism (and of Rome and of Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc.) is not the Jesus of the Bible (see here), and the gospel of Mormonism (and of Rome and of the JWs) is not the gospel of the Bible and it does not save (see here).

I do find it ironic though, that this very week we’ve discussed this matter of CCM music with a woman defending John Crowder and she (steeped in the world of so-called CCM) also believes there’s nothing wrong with Romanism. I’m beginning to see a pattern. Strong on CCM, weak on discernment, doctrine, and theology. When your life comes to an end, what will be more important, a right understanding of who Jesus is and what His gospel is, or how many concerts you went and how many good feelings you got while listening to music?

“Maybe that’s the reason why we have so much focus on music is due to the fact that music can be used to open people’s hearts to the gospel.”

God opens the minds and hearts of men (Luke 24:45, Acts 16:14, 1 John 5:20) and the Holy Spirit convicts of sin (John 16:8). Not Flyleaf, nor Skillet, nor any other person.

Look, I understand that you love your music. Your fervent defense of it shows how important it is to you, but please, do yourself a favor and spend more time reading your Bible than listening to music. In fact, I challenge you. Go 30 days without Skillet (or Red, or Flyleaf of K-Love, etc.) and dive into the Word of God. Study it, listen to the Bible on audio, listen to sermons from godly men, read the writings of godly men (e.g. the John Owens, JC Ryle, Charles Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, John MacArthur, any of the Puritans, etc). Perhaps by the end of those 30 days you will begin to see things a little (or a lot) differently. Do you think you can do it?

I also read that article you posted and I read comments and to all those who think music is becoming such an idol: well CCM is to blame for that isn’t it? None of those hymns have anything to do with it? Yes they do! If you don’t like the way music is becoming an idol in the church why do you still sing hymns? They’re music too! All the music you presented in that article seemed to be “contemporary” style churches. So again more CCM hating. And the reason why music has become such an important part of the church is because music has become an important part of people’s lives (especially young people) and people can connect through music. I don’t say it’s right to make the church a stage but I don’t think it’s wrong to play contemporary music. I also think that music is a tool that God can use to work in people’s lives and even to reach lost people. (I don’t want to hear “the only way God reaches people is through preaching”. Have you ever heard the saying “The Lord works in mysterious ways”? Well music is one of them.) Also if you think “Christian Rock is evil” read Psalm 150. It says at the end to praise God with string instruments (guitars) and loud cymbals (cymbals are on a drum set) so the Bible says to praise God with, basically, Rock music!

Sorry for the rant but seriously I think the whole CCM hating is getting out of hand because people who glorify hymns are just as bad as people who glorify contemporary music.
(PS I find a lot of Catholic hating on this site to be offensive because both my Grandma and Great Grandma are Catholics and they also believe in Jesus as their Savior and my parents want to check out this site so I might not be able to talk)

Also before I go maybe we think of CCM all wrong. Maybe it’s not supposed to be “Praise and Worship” but rather, a ministry. Many bands like, Skillet, RED, Flyleaf all have toured with secular bands and they preach the gospel while on tour, Christian or secular. Maybe that’s the reason why we have so much focus on music is due to the fact that music can be used to open people’s hearts to the gospel. Ok now I’m going. Talk to ya later! (I hope)

Apparently even the secular world can identify our idol, too bad we can’t.

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you (life’s been busy). In regard to your question to me:

“What do you think of taking secular songs and rewriting them to fit a Christian purpose? For example there’s one song that I like that I heard on the radio one time and it sounded awesome but unfortunately it had a bad message and some swearing in it (I don’t listen to it because of that and thankfully it was censored but I could tell the singer was swearing) What would your opinion be on taking that song and rewriting it to praise God or to give a Godly message?”

Essentially what you’re wondering about is, can or should I take something secular, change it, and use it to bring glory to God? Sort of mixing the two (worldly song with “God-glorifying” words). Right? I have to say, when I was a young Christian, I thought the very same thing (since there were a lot of secular songs I really liked). What I came to see all throughout God’s Word is that many times, especially in the Old Testament, God’s people attempted to mix the “secular” (that which originates from the unsaved, fallen, unregenerate world) with the “sacred” (that which pertains to or is offered to God). Each and every time it was rejected by God. Why? Weren’t they intending to glorify God? Maybe so. But it misses the point of what God says about Himself and Who He is, about us and who we are, about sin and why we are separated from God, and about who and what the All-Pure God allows in His presence.

Here’s a short explanation of a long subject:
God is not just holy, but supremely all-holy. “Holy” derives from “hágios” – meaning “different” (unlike), other (“otherness”). For the believer, hágios means “likeness of nature with the Lord” and therefore “different from the world.” Thus a temple in the 1st century was hagios (“holy”) because it was different from other buildings (Wm. Barclay). In the NT, hágios (“holy”) has the technical meaning of “different from the world” because it is “like the Lord.” Then He says “(You) be holy, for I am holy” (1 Pet.1:16). This is where the Old Testament is so valuable in understanding just what God means by this. God never said, nor does He ever convey the idea: “Come and worship Me any way you like”. On the contrary, He laid out highly specific, detailed instruction for His people to worship Him, including who was allowed to come into His presence (and how), what they were to do, what instruments to use in worship, what clothing to wear, how to prepare the sacrifice, etc. Any deviation from His instruction was unacceptable to Him. All of this process was important to make it clear to man that God only allows sinful man (who deserves hell for his rebellion, and has no right to approach his all-holy Creator) to approach Him by one specific means that is acceptable to Him. First man must be made holy BEFORE he can even enter into God’s presence.

Fast forward to the New Testament (and us). God STILL allows only one means by which we can approach Him. First our sins must be washed from us by His blood which He shed on the Cross, so that we are no longer separated from Him. When we are born again and thus become new creatures, we live our lives no longer as we always used to (in our flesh (our old fallen human nature), according to the ways of the world around us). On the contrary, we live in obedience to His every word, denying ourselves daily (that is, denying our fleshly thoughts and behaviors), take up our cross (willfully and gladly taking embracing that which kills our flesh) and follow Jesus daily (by living in obedience to His Word and following His example). That comes from our new nature (which is pleasing to God, and which God puts in us).

Evidence of this is the fruit we bear. That fruit is not “good works”, nor merely attending a church, nor saying and doing all the “right things” or all the “right words”. Rather, good fruit is that which flows out naturally from us when we are connected to Jesus “The Vine” (Jn.15:5). When we are truly born again, and new creatures, the fruit that naturally comes forth from us is that we no longer think or behave like we used to. In fact, those old things are now repulsive to us. We no longer even want them, and certainly take no joy in them anymore. Nor are we any longer like the world around us. Rather, we take joy in following Christ, living in obedience to His Word, seeking truth and righteousness as well as holiness (remember what holiness is?).

So that brings us back to “can I use secular songs to worship God”? In light of what I just shared, I sincerely hope such mixture would seem inappropriate and unacceptable. Worship God rather, in spirit (not the flesh), and in truth (according to His Word) (Jn.4:24), and in the beauty of holiness (Ps.29:2).

I have to say I’m confused in that what you’ve previously commented in this thread seems to run contrary to much of what the article said which Jude linked to. Yet you say the article is saying what you’ve been saying all along. OK. I have no desire to go round and round about it. And this would get quite lengthy indeed were I to bring in the issues of circumcision, the life and mind of Christ, God’s holiness and purity, Davidic vs. N.T. worship, world/flesh vs. spirit, etc. and how it all factors into all this. May the Lord grant us all understanding of what He has required of us as we study His Word.

Regarding your prayer request: of course I would be happy to pray for the person.

Something to remember (for true followers of Christ):

“Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you. Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.” (Luke 10:19-20)

PS: I need to add that We can praise God even if we have no reason too. I don’t HAVE to win a game on my Wii I can be thankful that I just have the Wii let alone the game. Same with work, People (especially in these hard times) need to know that they can’t just praise God because they did well at their job, rather praise God that they have a job. I can also praise God that I’m alive and well and living my life for him it doesn’t have to be brought up at anything, church, concerts, Bible studies, etc. I can praise God through anything at any time. I don’t believe there is anything wrong with getting really excited at concerts or church and that bringing on feelings of praise. And with the Jesus thing, I think that will shred apart our complaining when a song doesn’t mention Jesus or God. Because like you guys pointed out a man or woman can say Jesus in their songs but yet be so vulgar in their private lives or in public, while an artist who is on fire for God and praising him but yet not mentioning Jesus in the lyrics will be blasted down for “not saying Jesus”. See what I mean? Thanks for reading.

You came closer to the heart of the issue. So many have a false concept of what worship is. Euphoria is confused with “the Spirit’s presence”. “Feeling” is confused with spiritual guidance. “Worship” is for many (and for a time in the past was for me as well) a mystical experience, often catalyzed, instigated by, or produced by using a type of music they like (be it classical, rock, or “mood music”), which puts them into a “worshipful” feeling or atmosphere (as they perceive it), which they DIRECT TOWARD God. Such is not what we see in Scripture. But we do find that basic method in heathen religions. And as you well pointed out, attaching Jesus’ name to it somehow legitimizes it. Sad.

And also I wanna make a testimony. When I was reading on Skillet.com how a fan believes he is being taunted by demons(and by what he described I do believe he is) I got scared that night because the thought of demons and Satan sometimes scares me and I was shaky and kinda jumpy and I put a Christian Radio station on and the first song that I heard was “Feed the Machine” by RED. It’s a dark song but as soon I heard the first bit of screaming (yes this bands screams) I immediantely felt better! So I believe God can use whatever to praise him or to help others (Feed the Machine isn’t exactly a cheerful song but it helped me crush my fear) but I’m not trying to shove my beliefs down your throat if it appears I’m doing so I’ll stop.

Please do not assume that disagreement with another’s views/behaviors is “hating on them”.

I also caution you about assuming that if one’s beliefs are “based from” the bible, that the person or group is truly “Christian”, born again, or a follower of the Jesus of the Bible. There are certainly various groups who claim to be “christian” who base their beliefs/teachings on the Bible, yet ALSO have teachings and/or behaviors that are at odds with or contrary to the whole of Scripture. Read and contemplate Matt. 7:21-23 for instance.

Friend, I used to think very much like you years ago. As an old rocker Larry Norman used to say “I aint knockin your hymns, just give me a song that moves my feet…I don’t want none of your funeral marches, i aint dead yet…”. And to that I would give a hearty “right on Larry”. Truth is, I dug the music. And if the music I liked was “christian”, by “christian rock bands” and in a “christian church’, well, I truly had the best of both (so I thought at the time). I could “worship Jesus” along with all the music I liked (emphasis on “I liked”).

But I didn’t really understand the difference between the flesh and the spirit. I was told I was a new creature because of my decision to follow Christ. But I wasn’t taught nor did I understand what exactly the flesh was that I was supposed to be dying to (other than gross sins like fornication, drunkeness, etc.).

It wasn’t for many years that the Lord (the Holy Spirit) showed me, through daily study of His Word (BOTH Testaments), Who He really is, what He really desires, what He approves of and what He doesn’t. It was all there in His Word (both Testaments) all along. But I had to study His Word, daily, for years, and practice what He commanded, daily.

Now I have a better understanding what the flesh is and what caters to it, and what the spirit is, and how to commune with the Holy Spirit residing inside. And don’t get me wrong: I AM STILL LEARNING each day as I study His Word.

I can only go so far in telling you the ways of God. But only He can open you eyes and grant you understanding of what pleases Him and what doesn’t. I hope someday you find that true worship of the Almighty Creator God is in spirit (not by feelings, nor the flesh) and in truth (that which is defined by Him in His Word: “Thy Word is Truth”) (Jn.4:24).

Greetings.

Some question to ponder:

Should it take music to make one want to praise the Lord, or does the indwelling Holy Spirit cause the spirit inside to gravitate toward He Who loves and cares for His children?

Is the message preached boring unless there is music, or does God’s Word, read and preached from the pulpit cause the spirit within to jump with joy?

Should the tempo of the music dictate or influence your ability to pay attention to what the pastor is saying?

What is “praising the Lord”? Is it a thankful appreciation that flows out from us no matter where we are in gratefulness for what He does for us every moment of every day? Or is it measured by the feeling we get when we work ourselves up emotionally by means of music we like?

Isn’t it just this simple? – if it looks like the world, sounds like the world, and is loved by the world, is this not cause for all Christians to stop and think.

(re: music)

its quite simple – we are so far forward in time, from the actual “truth” — that the “truth” has been distorted, twisted, manipulated……..(by who? WHO DO YOU THINK?!)
..”music” as we know of it today, has been manipulated over time by satan….. music is “sounds”….. sounds affect our soul – our spirit …… the manipulation of sounds, by any “instrument” whether it be a stick on a metal garbage can lid, or a harp or an electric guitar, is manipulated to create a “connection” to our soul – our spirit…. “sounds” affect us in different way… go sit by the ocean on a windy day – if the sound of the waves of the ocean do not affect your spirit, then you must be listening to something else inside of your head………
go into a field, and listen to the trees and the wind — sit by a small stream and listen to the water flowing down across some rocks – does it not affect your spirit? listen to a baby coo, or a baby scream of pain – does this not affect your spirit? cut through and speak to your soul?? are these sounds “music?”
— listen to classic metal or rock – does it not affect your spirit and your soul?? listen to kenny G – (or the like) – does it not affect your spirit?
listen to rap or like music — c’mon people….. especially CHRISTIANS! — one person above said it the best!!
Isn’t it just this simple? (i modified it a little)

“- if it looks like the world, sounds like the world, and is loved by the world, is this not cause for all Christians to stop and think.”

i’m about 50 – from the age of about 8 or 9 years old – until my late 20′s/early 30′s – i was steeped in music – and when i decided one day (and with Gods help) to stop the drinking, etc. etc.. — looking for the “truth” i realized the affect of music on ALL PEOPLE!!! (including myself of course)
since then, my skin CRAWLS when i hear (especially) “christians” DEFEND “their music”! — (ccm or even secular music)

WE ARE LIVING IN THE END DAYS!! SATAN WILL USE, AND IS USING ALL THAT he CAN TO SWAY, CONFUSE, “MANIPULATE”!!!

MUSIC – IS SOMETHING “NATURAL” – “PURE” – “SPIRITUAL” -
HE STARTED WITH THE GROSS DISTORTION OF MANIPULATING SOUNDS – “MUSIC” IN THE WORLD – AND NOW, IN OUR “WISHY WASHY – ITS ALL ABOUT ME AND WHAT IS THE CHURCH GOING TO DO FOR ME AND HOW IS THE CHURCH (AND “GOD”) GOING TO “MAKE ME FEEL GOOD” CHURCH” (WORLD) —- IT HAS FILTERED IN – AND NOW GRASPING THE “christians” AND ” AFFECTING THEIR SPIRITS!!! ” “MANIPULATING THEIR SOULS”

I T ‘ S R E A L S I M P L E — PEOPLE!!!

WHERE IS THE DISCERNMENT??!!!

(I’M SORRY, IT JUST FRIES MY BRAIN – WRENCHES MY SPIRIT – DISTURBS MY SOUL………)

if joel olsteen or benny hinn or the like, preaches a part of a sermon, that is biblical, true, right on, —- are you going to listen to the rest of his sermons, become a member of their cult?? well, no… i dont think so….
so if a ccm song (or group) has one or two good songs, with “good words” — are you going to listen then to the other songs and be “fans” of them – because there was a song that inspired you (for that moment in time.. MADE YOU “FEEL GUSHY” AND TEARY EYED?!!!)

W A K E U P!!!!!

SATAN = MIX THE TRUTH WITH LIES (how about this – mix it with “sounds”)

so LETS JUST GO AHEAD AND FOLLOW!!!!!!
LOOKS GOOD – “FEELS GOOD” – SOUNDS GOOD – WELL “SIGN ME UP!!!”

and for you “WELL IT GETS THE KIDS INTO THE CHURCH” christians —

DID JESUS “HANG AT THE BAR – KICK DOWN A FEW – TELL A FEW NASTY JOKES ” so they would “listen to what HE said????

(i cant take much more… JESUS PLEASE TAKE ME HOME!!! – the end….)