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	<title>Comments on: Catholic Apologists and Excommunication</title>
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	<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/12/20/catholic-apologists-and-excommunication/</link>
	<description>Defending truth and contending for the Faith while carrying the Light of the Gospel into a world shrouded in darkness.</description>
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		<title>By: brother Michael</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/12/20/catholic-apologists-and-excommunication/#comment-17487</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[brother Michael]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jan 2010 00:59:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=16108#comment-17487</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Stina R - First, their is no need for you to ponder whether or not you want to concede whether this decree is in force, as it is so raising the question is moot, especially from a layman (unless you are unsigned cleric).  

Secondly, the point of the decree is clear, it is to prevent individual Catholics with &quot;no scientific theological training&quot; to defend the Roman religion for in so doing they may well preach and teach against the official doctrines of Mother Rome.  This being, to to use your own words, the average &quot;Joe Schmoe on the corner&quot; which includes the vast majority of Roman apologists encountered on the internet and elsewhere.  The very same ones who are breaking this command and should be bound in the fetters of excommunication.

Thirdly, this is a papal decree and no amount of apologetical card shuffling is going to change this and that it is to be held and enforced by the &quot;church.&quot;  One day, I&#039;m sure this will be so again.

Fourthly, I love how Romanists will defend tooth and nail their pet Roman doctrines found no where in the Bible when decreed as doctrine by the Popes, yet when one is called into question, so often what one finds is theological back-peddling.  Or, maybe better stated, buffet theology.  That is, if one infallible decree by this Pope is not suited to one&#039;s taste because they don&#039;t like it, why not play the trump card and quote the words from another &quot;church father&quot; or Pope who says otherwise.  

Finally, no one is out to poke holes in arguments for poking holes sake, nor is one out to lob unpleasant accusations about the Catholic religion due to some personal vendetta.  The truth is, that Rome does not preach the gospel, has not Jesus Christ, and is leading people to damnation.  Even as I see in my own family as another one of my family members has died.  A die-hard Romanist who knew not Jesus, the gospel or salvation, yet tomorrow I will hear damnable lies from some priest about how she is up in heaven because she was a good Catholic and went to Mass and did this and that.  When in reality she was a dead sinner.

This is why we write what we do so as to strive to lead people away from Rome and towards Jesus Christ for today could be the last day for any one of us.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stina R &#8211; First, their is no need for you to ponder whether or not you want to concede whether this decree is in force, as it is so raising the question is moot, especially from a layman (unless you are unsigned cleric).  </p>
<p>Secondly, the point of the decree is clear, it is to prevent individual Catholics with &#8220;no scientific theological training&#8221; to defend the Roman religion for in so doing they may well preach and teach against the official doctrines of Mother Rome.  This being, to to use your own words, the average &#8220;Joe Schmoe on the corner&#8221; which includes the vast majority of Roman apologists encountered on the internet and elsewhere.  The very same ones who are breaking this command and should be bound in the fetters of excommunication.</p>
<p>Thirdly, this is a papal decree and no amount of apologetical card shuffling is going to change this and that it is to be held and enforced by the &#8220;church.&#8221;  One day, I&#8217;m sure this will be so again.</p>
<p>Fourthly, I love how Romanists will defend tooth and nail their pet Roman doctrines found no where in the Bible when decreed as doctrine by the Popes, yet when one is called into question, so often what one finds is theological back-peddling.  Or, maybe better stated, buffet theology.  That is, if one infallible decree by this Pope is not suited to one&#8217;s taste because they don&#8217;t like it, why not play the trump card and quote the words from another &#8220;church father&#8221; or Pope who says otherwise.  </p>
<p>Finally, no one is out to poke holes in arguments for poking holes sake, nor is one out to lob unpleasant accusations about the Catholic religion due to some personal vendetta.  The truth is, that Rome does not preach the gospel, has not Jesus Christ, and is leading people to damnation.  Even as I see in my own family as another one of my family members has died.  A die-hard Romanist who knew not Jesus, the gospel or salvation, yet tomorrow I will hear damnable lies from some priest about how she is up in heaven because she was a good Catholic and went to Mass and did this and that.  When in reality she was a dead sinner.</p>
<p>This is why we write what we do so as to strive to lead people away from Rome and towards Jesus Christ for today could be the last day for any one of us.</p>
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		<title>By: Stina R.</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/12/20/catholic-apologists-and-excommunication/#comment-17434</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stina R.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 23:18:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=16108#comment-17434</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Brother Michael, I hate to pop your bubble, so to speak, but the Catholic Church does not now nor never has taught that every little thing that the pope says is infallible and unchangeable.

Additionally, even if we concede that the decree you quote is still in effect, if you continued to read the original source that you quoted, you would note that there are contexts and specific guidelines regarding application of the decree - generally speaking, the idea is that a priest or someone else with formal theological training is going to be better equipped to discuss and debate theology than Joe Schmoe on the corner.  However, there is allowance for laymen to engage in discussion of theology - &quot;There are numerous questions, somewhat connected with theology, which many laymen who have received no scientific theological training can treat more intelligently than a priest. In modern life, it frequently happens that an O&#039;Connell or a Montalembert must stand forward as a defender of Catholic interests upon occasions when a theologian would be out of place.&quot;  Also, Thomas Aquinas wrote in the Summa Theologica that &quot;it is lawful to dispute publicly with unbelievers, under certain conditions. To discuss as doubting the truth of the faith, is a sin; to discuss for the purpose of refuting error, is praiseworthy&quot; (II-II, Q. x, a. 7).

Also, as someone has already pointed out, an Imprimatur in a piece of writing merely states that the writing is free of doctrinal errors.  It in no way declares the piece of writing to be dogmatic, infallible, or a papal decree or anything of the sort.

Now, I am sure that you and your readers will find many ways to poke holes in what I have said, or to lob unpleasant accusations about the Catholic Church about, and that&#039;s fine, I&#039;m prepared for that.  I simply could not just ignore this post.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brother Michael, I hate to pop your bubble, so to speak, but the Catholic Church does not now nor never has taught that every little thing that the pope says is infallible and unchangeable.</p>
<p>Additionally, even if we concede that the decree you quote is still in effect, if you continued to read the original source that you quoted, you would note that there are contexts and specific guidelines regarding application of the decree &#8211; generally speaking, the idea is that a priest or someone else with formal theological training is going to be better equipped to discuss and debate theology than Joe Schmoe on the corner.  However, there is allowance for laymen to engage in discussion of theology &#8211; &#8220;There are numerous questions, somewhat connected with theology, which many laymen who have received no scientific theological training can treat more intelligently than a priest. In modern life, it frequently happens that an O&#8217;Connell or a Montalembert must stand forward as a defender of Catholic interests upon occasions when a theologian would be out of place.&#8221;  Also, Thomas Aquinas wrote in the Summa Theologica that &#8220;it is lawful to dispute publicly with unbelievers, under certain conditions. To discuss as doubting the truth of the faith, is a sin; to discuss for the purpose of refuting error, is praiseworthy&#8221; (II-II, Q. x, a. 7).</p>
<p>Also, as someone has already pointed out, an Imprimatur in a piece of writing merely states that the writing is free of doctrinal errors.  It in no way declares the piece of writing to be dogmatic, infallible, or a papal decree or anything of the sort.</p>
<p>Now, I am sure that you and your readers will find many ways to poke holes in what I have said, or to lob unpleasant accusations about the Catholic Church about, and that&#8217;s fine, I&#8217;m prepared for that.  I simply could not just ignore this post.</p>
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		<title>By: irishanglican</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/12/20/catholic-apologists-and-excommunication/#comment-16797</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[irishanglican]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=16108#comment-16797</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was myself a Benedictine monastic (UK) for several years back in my 20&#039;s. Not too long after Vatican II, believe me Rome has changed!  Sure they are still basically conservative from the Red Hats down, but there are also so many moderates now. They don&#039;t even remember the stuff you are quoting, save if they have to for some reason. And a Imprimatur, etc. are not decrees, but just show the material is without Catholic non or false teaching, etc.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was myself a Benedictine monastic (UK) for several years back in my 20&#8242;s. Not too long after Vatican II, believe me Rome has changed!  Sure they are still basically conservative from the Red Hats down, but there are also so many moderates now. They don&#8217;t even remember the stuff you are quoting, save if they have to for some reason. And a Imprimatur, etc. are not decrees, but just show the material is without Catholic non or false teaching, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: brother Michael</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/12/20/catholic-apologists-and-excommunication/#comment-16796</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[brother Michael]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:57:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=16108#comment-16796</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Matthew Johnston - Ask the Catholic poster on your website to produce official proof that this doctrine was changed because generalities about Vatican II and its changing things will not suffice here.  Yet this will be impossible because according to New Advent, the official Catholic encyclopedia, it clearly states that this decree is &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05034a.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;still in force.&quot;&lt;/a&gt;  And this carries with it the weight of the following Papal certification: Nihil Obstat. May 1, 1909. Remy Lafort, Censor. Imprimatur. +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York.
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matthew Johnston &#8211; Ask the Catholic poster on your website to produce official proof that this doctrine was changed because generalities about Vatican II and its changing things will not suffice here.  Yet this will be impossible because according to New Advent, the official Catholic encyclopedia, it clearly states that this decree is <a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05034a.htm" rel="nofollow">&#8220;still in force.&#8221;</a>  And this carries with it the weight of the following Papal certification: Nihil Obstat. May 1, 1909. Remy Lafort, Censor. Imprimatur. +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York.</p>
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		<title>By: irishanglican</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/12/20/catholic-apologists-and-excommunication/#comment-16791</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[irishanglican]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Dec 2009 21:20:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=16108#comment-16791</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Matthew Johnston,

Your R. Catholic friend is correct, Vatican II changed a lot of both social and theological issues, sure it is not perfect but it was a radical change from the Latin Mass. I was a Roman Catholic raised in Ireland, and lived thru the Latine Mass and changes.
Fr. Robert]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matthew Johnston,</p>
<p>Your R. Catholic friend is correct, Vatican II changed a lot of both social and theological issues, sure it is not perfect but it was a radical change from the Latin Mass. I was a Roman Catholic raised in Ireland, and lived thru the Latine Mass and changes.<br />
Fr. Robert</p>
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		<title>By: Diane</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/12/20/catholic-apologists-and-excommunication/#comment-16767</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Diane]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:30:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=16108#comment-16767</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Amen to your prayer, Habakkuk.
We do need to remember to pray for the RCC and for God to open eyes.
There does not seem to be much openness to anything other than Catholicism, at least that is the case with my brother and sister-in-law.
I have been presenting the gospel to them, begging my brother to search for himself what the RCC teaches and compare that to the bible.
He told me ---don&#039;t worry, all is good if it is what you truly believe. God will work it all out in the end.  My sister-in-law replied with condescending remarks and animosity. I guess I did not realize the RCC teaches a kind of universalism? I don&#039;t remember ever being taught that, but I left it when in college many years ago. 
Did not receive a Christ&#039;s Mass card from them this year...guess I&#039;m off the list.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen to your prayer, Habakkuk.<br />
We do need to remember to pray for the RCC and for God to open eyes.<br />
There does not seem to be much openness to anything other than Catholicism, at least that is the case with my brother and sister-in-law.<br />
I have been presenting the gospel to them, begging my brother to search for himself what the RCC teaches and compare that to the bible.<br />
He told me &#8212;don&#8217;t worry, all is good if it is what you truly believe. God will work it all out in the end.  My sister-in-law replied with condescending remarks and animosity. I guess I did not realize the RCC teaches a kind of universalism? I don&#8217;t remember ever being taught that, but I left it when in college many years ago.<br />
Did not receive a Christ&#8217;s Mass card from them this year&#8230;guess I&#8217;m off the list.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff H</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/12/20/catholic-apologists-and-excommunication/#comment-16763</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff H]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 17:05:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=16108#comment-16763</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[brother Michael wrote: 
&lt;blockquote&gt;Hope your wife is doing well. Blessings to you both.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

She is doing great praise God! 

Thank you for asking, friend.

- Jeff H]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>brother Michael wrote: </p>
<blockquote><p>Hope your wife is doing well. Blessings to you both.</p></blockquote>
<p>She is doing great praise God! </p>
<p>Thank you for asking, friend.</p>
<p>- Jeff H</p>
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		<title>By: The Desert Pastor</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/12/20/catholic-apologists-and-excommunication/#comment-16758</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Desert Pastor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 15:22:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=16108#comment-16758</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, but only &quot;heretics&quot; to the Roman Catholic system.  According to the Word of God which supersedes the Roman Catholic system, it is the pope and all of his blind teachers who are the true heretics for what they teach is false teaching ranking up there along with Islam, Buddhism, and even paganism.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, but only &#8220;heretics&#8221; to the Roman Catholic system.  According to the Word of God which supersedes the Roman Catholic system, it is the pope and all of his blind teachers who are the true heretics for what they teach is false teaching ranking up there along with Islam, Buddhism, and even paganism.</p>
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		<title>By: brother Michael</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/12/20/catholic-apologists-and-excommunication/#comment-16757</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[brother Michael]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:51:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=16108#comment-16757</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jeff H - Nice to see you back. I was getting concerned.  Hope your wife is doing well.  Blessings to you both.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff H &#8211; Nice to see you back. I was getting concerned.  Hope your wife is doing well.  Blessings to you both.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff H</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/12/20/catholic-apologists-and-excommunication/#comment-16755</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff H]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:00:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=16108#comment-16755</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Agreed, brother Michael 

Habakkuk 2:4b &quot;but the righteous shall live by his faith.&quot;

Amen and thanks be to God!!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed, brother Michael </p>
<p>Habakkuk 2:4b &#8220;but the righteous shall live by his faith.&#8221;</p>
<p>Amen and thanks be to God!!</p>
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		<title>By: brother Michael</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/12/20/catholic-apologists-and-excommunication/#comment-16752</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[brother Michael]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:51:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=16108#comment-16752</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Vivator - Nice diversionary tactic.  Yet I will say in that being a heretic according to Rome is a good thing for those she speaks well of are on their way to the lake of fire.

Matthew - They might say that as Catholic apologists always play the chameleon to suit their purposes yet they are still wrong because this was a papal, infallible decree never annulled.  And how could something that is infallible ever be annulled or removed from the books?  That would mean the Papacy/Magisterium is wrong and we &quot;know&quot; Rome is never wrong.

Amen Habakkuk.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Vivator &#8211; Nice diversionary tactic.  Yet I will say in that being a heretic according to Rome is a good thing for those she speaks well of are on their way to the lake of fire.</p>
<p>Matthew &#8211; They might say that as Catholic apologists always play the chameleon to suit their purposes yet they are still wrong because this was a papal, infallible decree never annulled.  And how could something that is infallible ever be annulled or removed from the books?  That would mean the Papacy/Magisterium is wrong and we &#8220;know&#8221; Rome is never wrong.</p>
<p>Amen Habakkuk.</p>
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		<title>By: vivator</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/12/20/catholic-apologists-and-excommunication/#comment-16748</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[vivator]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 04:47:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=16108#comment-16748</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[By using that decree to silent Catholic apologist, you also freely acknowledge that you are heretics.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By using that decree to silent Catholic apologist, you also freely acknowledge that you are heretics.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Johnston</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/12/20/catholic-apologists-and-excommunication/#comment-16746</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matthew Johnston]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 04:04:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=16108#comment-16746</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[According to a Roman Catholic who reads my blog, this decree is; 

&quot;that sort of restriction actually went out with Vatican II. It is not Dogma, but a Discipline open to change, and it did. It falls under the same category of how Catholics could not attend Protestant religious services before Vatican II, but that has changed. It is not a cornerstone of the Faith or anything.&quot;.

Any thoughts on this Brother Michael?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to a Roman Catholic who reads my blog, this decree is; </p>
<p>&#8220;that sort of restriction actually went out with Vatican II. It is not Dogma, but a Discipline open to change, and it did. It falls under the same category of how Catholics could not attend Protestant religious services before Vatican II, but that has changed. It is not a cornerstone of the Faith or anything.&#8221;.</p>
<p>Any thoughts on this Brother Michael?</p>
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		<title>By: Habakkuk</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/12/20/catholic-apologists-and-excommunication/#comment-16745</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Habakkuk]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 03:13:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=16108#comment-16745</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dear Heavenly Father;
How our hearts ache for our Roman Catholic family members and friends.  It is so difficult to penetrate all of the layers of false teaching to reach their hearts.  Many of our Catholic friends don&#039;t fully understand the doctrine of the church - they don&#039;t realize the weight of the chains of works righteousness that are enslaving them.  Father God, it is so very difficult to talk with the  Catholics around us.  Oh God, we beg that your Holy Spirit would move in a supernatural way in the Catholic Church.  Father 500 years ago you used your servant Martin Luther penetrate the Gibraltar-like dominance of the Catholic church.  Father, please raise up men and women in Rome and throughout the church - remove the scales from their eyes that they might see the truth of Your word.  Father, often they refuse what we have to say as  believers they have been trained and indoctrinated by their leadership to disregard any spiritual information except for what comes from the church.  Father we beg that by Your Holy Spirit you would do an &quot;inside job&quot; that 500 years after the reformation that you would bring true revival and regeneration among Catholics in this world.

We beg this in Jesus name
Amen]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Heavenly Father;<br />
How our hearts ache for our Roman Catholic family members and friends.  It is so difficult to penetrate all of the layers of false teaching to reach their hearts.  Many of our Catholic friends don&#8217;t fully understand the doctrine of the church &#8211; they don&#8217;t realize the weight of the chains of works righteousness that are enslaving them.  Father God, it is so very difficult to talk with the  Catholics around us.  Oh God, we beg that your Holy Spirit would move in a supernatural way in the Catholic Church.  Father 500 years ago you used your servant Martin Luther penetrate the Gibraltar-like dominance of the Catholic church.  Father, please raise up men and women in Rome and throughout the church &#8211; remove the scales from their eyes that they might see the truth of Your word.  Father, often they refuse what we have to say as  believers they have been trained and indoctrinated by their leadership to disregard any spiritual information except for what comes from the church.  Father we beg that by Your Holy Spirit you would do an &#8220;inside job&#8221; that 500 years after the reformation that you would bring true revival and regeneration among Catholics in this world.</p>
<p>We beg this in Jesus name<br />
Amen</p>
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		<title>By: Manfred</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/12/20/catholic-apologists-and-excommunication/#comment-16744</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Manfred]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 02:17:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=16108#comment-16744</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Many friends of Roman Catholics deny that the Romans are commanded to basically listen only to the Magisterium.  Most Romans don&#039;t know enough of their own doctrine to know what the Magisterium have said nor what the Bible says.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many friends of Roman Catholics deny that the Romans are commanded to basically listen only to the Magisterium.  Most Romans don&#8217;t know enough of their own doctrine to know what the Magisterium have said nor what the Bible says.</p>
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