The Pilgrim
Coram Deo
Bill
unworthy1
brother MichaelI want to thank my brother Steve B., who e-mailed me this short piece from John MacArthur…
Christians and Christmas
The Puritans in early America rejected Christmas celebrations altogether. They deliberately worked on December 25 to show their disdain. A law passed in England in 1644 reflected a similar Puritan influence; the law made Christmas Day an official working day. For a time in England it was literally illegal to cook plum pudding or mince pie for the holidays.
Christians today are generally not opposed to celebrating Christmas. The holiday itself is nothing, and observing it is not a question of right or wrong. As Paul wrote, “One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God” (Rom 14:5-6). Every day – including Christmas – is a celebration for us who know and love Him.
from “Truth for Today: A Daily Touch of God’s Grace”
I am not hard-core against honoring the birth of our Savor, but am interested in knowing if MacArthur and some reformed leaders think the trappings of how it’s done and what it’s called are cause for concern. “Christmas” can only mean “Christ’s Mass” (unless one is post-modern) and that is reprehensible. The “Christmas tree” appears to be out-right forbidden in Jeremiah chapter 10.
I have grappled with this cultural season for several years and do not have a sense of reconciliation between it and the Word of God.
Manfred,
Having been around far too many legalistic Independent Baptist churches throughout my earlier years, I cannot tell you how many times I heard that about Jeremiah 10 condemning “Christmas trees.”
The Christmas tree is definitely not in view in Jeremiah 10. Jeremiah is addressing the sin of the people who are whoring after the gods that surround them. They were taking a tree, carving it up and decorating that idol for the purpose of worshiping it. Christmas trees would not have even been in the mind of Jeremiah for Christ Himself had not come. The adorning of trees for the festive season is a fairly modern invention anyway only dating back in Germany to around the early 1500′s and not in England and America until the mid to late 1800′s. Here is an interesting site on “Christmas” trees.
However, in regards to the name, you are correct that the word is a compilation of two meaning “Christ’s Mass” which is a direct reference to the Roman Catholic heresy of mass.
Kind regards,
The Desert Pastor
DP,
Thank you for your response. Regarding the “Christmas Tree” – Wikipedia is interesting but not authoritative (on this or any other matter). The fact that people brought trees that fit the description of what’s in Jer 10 – whenever it was first done for “Christmas” – still appears to be a case of pagan trappings being brought into a “Christian” celebration.
Is not how we approach God something by which the Bible ought to be our rule? How can bringing in practices and decorations that have much in common with what appear to be their pagan (God hating) roots and nothing in common with Scripture?
Not to be unkind, but your experience in “legalistic Independent Baptist churches” is not relevant. I don’t care for that environment myself, but my response to it does not establish my interpretation of Scripture.
I recognize there are wide divergences regarding this day, but we must acknowledge that regardless of this, the practice of bringing trees into the house as an object of honor and worship comes not from God but the pagans. And whilst the practice of modern trees in the fashion as we know them today comes from Germany, the tradition of bringing in greenery and trees during the winter solstice long predates Christianity. As many know, the Romans did it during the Saturnalia but so too did the Egyptians with palm branches. Other cultures such as the barbarians in Europe had similar traditions. All as they worshiped the creature as they viewed greenery during the dead winter as a symbol of eternal life.
Hence, the Christians did not receive this tradition of man from Jesus nor the apostles, but rather syncretism with paganism; specifically that in Rome and later what they received from Europe. This is clear history and is how the Christ Mass came to be celebrated as the Saturnalia was subsumed by the Roman religion to appease the pagans who would not give up the day and all its merriment. Later, traditions from other cultures were added in like the Yule Log, mistletoe, etc.
Exactly my questions, also, as stated in the above post by Manfred.
Have been trying to figure Christmas out for a few weeks now. Can we use what were once pagan symbols of worship to false gods and rename them for worship to God? I guess I want to know what God thinks of it and am struggling a bit with gaining clarity. I appreciate this post as I am finding few people that want to discuss this.
Is the context of Romans 14:5-6 limited to speaking of already established Jewish holy days or is it open to anything?
Thanks in advance to anyone who has any insights to share.
Manfred,
Thanks for your response. In one sense, I can understand your point about my experience being not relevant. While my response to the IFB does not dictate my interpretation of Scripture in anyway, the point is that it is only from those legalistic backgrounds that I “learned” about the “Christmas tree” issue.
As MacArthur has stated, each person chooses what day(s) to esteem above another as stated by the apostle Paul. If one person chooses to remember the First Advent in Christmas while another chooses July, I believe they have the freedom to do so. There are many things we do that appear to have pagan origins which are not unbiblical though. We celebrate our birthdays as one example. We give gifts, etc.
One more note and not to be contentious in any way for I appreciate the conversation, if we are not careful we can place too much emphasis on “pagan” roots of something without being perfectly clear as to why something happens or takes place. As one example on a completely different issue, I work as a Funeral Director and a lot of people choose cremation over burial. Some Christians will state they do not want cremation because it is pagan in origin, yet will choose the route of embalming the body which was an ancient practice of the Egyptians. Embalming is just as pagan in origin as cremation! So, you can see that certain things in life are practiced of which we give very little heed to.
I believe the bottom line is that if a person wishes to have decorations, tinsel, glitter, snowflakes, a tree, presents, etc., they have the liberty to do so provided the heart is right before the Lord. If the season becomes merely the means to obtaining stuff and giving stuff and fed too much, it is a sin of gluttony and covetousness. If it is a day whereby our main focus is the Perfect Gift and through the giving of gifts to our children, we use this as an example to them, I do not find a fault in Scripture that precludes us from doing so.
Hope that clarifies.
Would this issue be like eating meat sacrificed to idols?
1Cor8
DP,
Thank you for your reply. We are, in part, replaying a conversation I recently had with my wife :-)
Things not attached to Christ nor dictated in Scripture – your birthday or burial, my motorcycle riding – are a whole different case. When we attach Christ to a bunch of practices and stuff that have on Biblical context but lots of pagan context – that becomes a matter of that I think should fall under the regulative principle, and we should follow guidance and teachings from the Scriptures.
If Eli’s sons were killed for bringing “strange fire” before God and Saphira and Ananias were killed for not being completely truthful – should we be cavalier about bringing pagan stuff wrapped in our devotion to our Lord?
__________________________________________________________________________
shane,
If we used pagan stuff to celebrate your birthday, I think it would fit properly into 1 Cor 8. We’re using “meat offered to idols” to celebrate Christ – that strikes me like the priests taking damaged beasts for sacrifice in the temple.
Diane,
I believe the specific sense is that Paul is dealing with those who believed the Jews were under obligation to remember the special days as required by the Mosaic law. However, in the context, there is reason to understand that any days are in view that a person chooses to remember.
Yep, my wife and I have often discussed these things and continue to try and figure things out! LOL
Is not the issue that is at stake the actual worship of the Lord? In other words, if we were bringing presents, tinsel, trees, wreaths, or whatever into our homes to be part of some expression of worship to the Lord, I could understand this being a concern. We do not worship the tree or even with the tree. It is (to our family) merely decorative and neither demeans or adds to “Christmas” or even whether we are remembering the First Advent or not. In fact a tree, to us, would be no more or less than lighting nice-smelling candles, hanging a wall painting or putting out potpourri.
To call decorations “strange fire” would be a stretch at best from my understanding of Scripture. Just a few more thoughts to stir in the pot! LOL
DP,
Thanks for the light-hearted response. I’ve asked my wife what our practice of exchanging gifts has to do with the biblical account of the wise men, recommending we give money to the Bible League instead of buying stuff. She tells me that I’m no fun. In response, I cannot but observe that any worship of the Lord is not to be defined by whether or not it’s fun, but is it appropriate.
With much prayer and some conflict.
I’ve got an idea – why don’t we just knock this “Christmas” thing on the head, and nominate a day where we give each other gifts just because we like getting stuff! Call it “The Gift-Giving Day!” Wrap the gifts in “brown paper packages tied up with string, these are a few of my favorite things!” Set it in February or March. Nothing much going in those months and it will help to make winter move along quicker with all the anticipation! LOL
Seriously, I fully agree with your comment that “any worship of the Lord is not to be defined by whether or not it’s fun, but is it appropriate!” Very good!
DP,
BINGO! We have a winner! My birthday happens to be in March, so I’ll set the date. We can call it “Manfred’s international day of giving stuff for no good reason”. Since that isn’t my real name, I won’t get the big head :-)
LOL :-) Now if only all our readers were so easy to please!!! LOL
If it is a RCC decreed holiday, which it seems to be—please correct me if I am mistaken—with origins in the Catholic church, the name given to it from a Roman Catholic mass, then I am puzzled how people can say that it doesn’t mean that to them. I have had a lot of Christians tell me that all the history of it doesn’t matter—they do with it what they wish.
I guess I am just concerned about mixing in with the RCC in any way.
Thank you, this is sort of helping! :-)
DP – Now that is a post re. the “Christ” Mass I can agree with!
Diane – I am in 100% agreement with you. It seems, at least to me, that most treasure this day(if we are honest) because of everything that surrounds it (i.e. the gift receiving/giving, sentimental & sappy music, baking/cooking, parties, trees, lights, decorations, family obligations, shopping, children, childhood warm and fuzzy memories, etc.) Because I well imagine if the “Christ” Mass were a day like other Catholic “holy” days with only the obligatory Mass attendance, than most non-Catholics would not give it a passing thought. I mean, when was the last time you heard any non-Romanists fighting for other Catholic holy days such as All Saints Days, Divine Mercy Sunday or the Feast of the Ascension, or using Romans 14 to justify our keeping of them?
And I ask rhetorically, why is this so? I mean, why should we only take part of the Catholic liturgical calendar and not the whole enchilada? If we can receive from Rome and the papacy this day (it is more than a day honestly but really a season with Advent and more Catholic traditions), why should we not add all of the Catholic days to our calendar? I well imagine if these days had the traditions associated with the “Christ” mass and all the nice pretty goodies so many love, many would be begging their pastors to keep the day.
Thank you, brother Michael, for your insights.
And there is an unspoken pressure from friends/family to keep the holiday as well, lest you be thought of as unloving or a scrooge or rigid, etc.
I don’t want an association in any way with the RCC–thus my reason for searching out the history of it in trying to determine its origins. The pagan part of it doesn’t bother me as much as the RCC involvement does.
Diane
You are welcome and I full well understand what you are referring to re. being called scrooge or rigid. And if we stop and think about this for a moment, isn’t this just amazing? That is, when someone desires to uphold the apostolic, Biblical position (i.e. Sola Scriptura), shun the religious traditions of men and to do as the early church did, many will ridicule, mock and call them names for such a stance. Makes one really stop and think.
Blessings
My beautiful bride and I have wrestled with the question of whether or not to celebrate “Christ’s Mass” ( I call it that because I once was RC), and after much prayer we decided to treat Dec. 25 as any other day. The fact that my employer decides to treat that day as a paid day off for me, is gravy!
Seriously, I cannot in good conscience worship God with pagan tradition, but in good conscience I also cannot attempt to compel another to hold to my point of view on this. I agree with the idea that the celebration of “Christ’s Mass”, and indulging in all the trappings thereof, is an issue for each individual to discern (read as: eating meat sacrificed to idols). But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord, and we choose to worship Him in ways that HE deems acceptable.
Maybe we should just scrap “Christ’s Mass” and celebrate Festivus instead!
I’d have to say that probably most things we do are immersed in paganism. Why do we worship on Sunday instead of Saturday…or any other day of the week?
DP’s Wife,
While the names of the days of the week are from pagan religion, the reason Christians worship on Sunday is clear – the Bible records that after Christ ascended into heaven, His people gathered on the first day of the week (Sunday) to honor and worship Him.
Colossians 2:16 & 17, for example, most likely are meant to encourage Jewish Christians to resist cultural arguments from non-Christian Jews to worship on the last day of the week (Saturday).
Festivus for the rest of us.
Before I was married I had thought about just leaving the Christmas tree up year round and decorate it for different holidays.
Are there any former Jehovah’s Witnesses out there that now celebrate Christmas?
Why do we, who are not RC, say Merry Christmas? I was a Catholic until the Lord brought me out of it in college. I realize I am more sensitive to the term, having been in the Catholic religion and familiar with the mass, but if I hold to the true gospel of Christ, then how can I say anything upholding a RC invented phrase? To me, it is more about Christ than pagan traditions.
Just my opinion. :-) Everyone comes to his/her own belief and the important thing is to worship Him no matter what day it is. God bless.
Some very interesting dialog here.
I understand a Christian celebrating X-mas who has never of the origins or studied it’s roots, etc.
I do not, however, understand when someone KNOWS the truth of where it all came from, then try to defend it.
Some will say, well we do not do the “worldly” things, you know Satan Clause (spelling intentional) and reindeer, etc.
We just like to speak of Jesus’ birth, etc. “We use it as an opportunity to witness”. TO WHOM! And what are we inviting them to?
Honestly the pagan and the religious are woven so tightly I do not know how it can be separated.
As far as celebrating birthdays, you are correct it is a pagan practice, but it is not a “national holiday” where everyone in the universe celebrates it and churches have special services to commemorate.
And embalming? Really? Isn’t that the law?
Speaking as someone who was shown the light about holidays (and there are more than just X-mas) and their pagan roots, who tried for many years to compromise with friends and family so as not to raise a fuss and make other uncomfortable. Each year a little more would “fall off”. Until you remove your foot completely from it, you will not have true victory!
Just my own experience.
And I am counting the cost, as it has resulted in my being ostracized completely by those very same “Christian” friends and family.
But, all glory and praise belongs to the Lord Jesus Christ. He is most worthy!
In reference to birthdays, does it matter if its a national holiday or not even though its pagan? If something is pagan then its pagan – correct?
Blessings
KC,
As discussed above, the “liberty of conscience” described in 1 Cor 8 would apply to activities that are not connected to the name of Christ. Funerals, as mentioned – pagans developed embalming, but Christians have no reason to avoid embalming as it’s not an activity tied to the identity or worship of the Lord.
Manfred:
By your reasoning of “liberty of conscience” things that are not connected to the name of Christ would be permissable for a Christian to particpate in. If that is the case, then a holiday like Halloween would be permissable for a Christian to partake in because it is not connected to the name of Christ.
Blessings
KC,
Things that are inherently evil are to be shunned. Some things are not inherently evil (eating meat offered to idols) and it is up to the individual to discern his own heart towards them. Things are tied to the Lord must be in compliance with His Word. So whatever you do, do it unto the Lord, with thanksgiving for His marvelous grace.
http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract3.html
Unprofitable Servant,
The link you posted for the X-mas tract, is
excellent. Written by a man raised in witchcraft,
he brings out things that I have never read
before.
Thank you for posting it, I may inquire about
other tracts from him.
Interesting link you posted UnprofitableServant. I agree with it (though it seems like he is blaming people who stopped using the KJV for why the Christmas celebration came back around in the late 1800′s). I don’t do the KJV-only stuff. But other than that, he makes very good points on Christmas.
For those interested you might want to check out the History Channel special aired a number of years ago about the history of this day. Its focus is not strong on the Roman Catholic religious aspects and syncretism, but examines the day more from a secular perspective. This is very important to study though since the day as observed throughout history and even today was in no way created by the body of Christ (as if we can create holy days), but rather the world. This should be very clear as you watch this presentation and observe the constant morphing of the solstice celebration to fit the culture/society it is observed in.
One caveat to this program is that it is believed by historians that some similarities between Mithraism and Christianity as noted in the video are not due to Christians borrowing from pagans (as a woman in this video stated), but rather the pagans borrowing from the Christians.
Part 1 of 5 can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT-Mms2t1hA
p.s. One more caveat, in the video there is an “expert” from All Souls Church NY, one who mocks the Puritans about not wanting to have too much fun and hence banning “Christ” Mass (a common attack against those wanting Scriptural fidelity and no Romanism & worldliness). But, this is to be expected from one who attends a “church” that “…is an accessible congregation … dedicated to providing an environment in which all people feel welcome regardless of race, sexual orientation or physical ability.”
For those who are interested, an excellent treatise on the Pagan origins of Christmas, Easter, etc. was done some years ago by Alexander Hislop called “The Two Babylons”. Check it out:
http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon/
The presentation done by the History Channel is very good, from a secular perspective. Very telling!
The book mentioned “The Two Babylons” is also most excellent, and very telling. (hard to find sometimes though)
I am still baffled by the defense of this holiday. I understand if you have or are doing it in ignorance (as a Christian), but once you’re shown the “light” on a subject, you are obligated to address it!
Hey Berean Gal,
I solved your math problem:
X = Christ
- Jeff
p.s. j/k
Well, I have a conviction against saying
“Christ” and “mass” in the same compound word!
Thanx anyway.
Berean Gal,
I agree with you and I too cannot say Christ and mass together, knowing what it implies. (I am an ex-catholic.)
I am trying to find out for sure when it was first used and when the RCC invented the word.
Thanks!
Diane,
From the Roman web site: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm
This:
The word for Christmas in late Old English is Cristes Maesse, the Mass of Christ, first found in 1038, and Cristes-messe, in 1131. In Dutch it is Kerstmis, in Latin Dies Natalis, whence comes the French Noël, and Italian Il natale; in German Weihnachtsfest, from the preceeding sacred vigil. The term Yule is of disputed origin. It is unconnected with any word meaning “wheel”. The name in Anglo-Saxon was geol, feast: geola, the name of a month (cf. Icelandic iol a feast in December).
Manfred,
Thank you for the information and I do appreciate it.
It seems that it is a certainty that it is a Roman Catholic invented word, right? Mass simply and definitely means the Catholic mass, not a festival, or a celebration or a feast. Christmas means that the Roman church holds a mass (several ) on the day to celebrate the birth of Jesus, right?
I have also read somewhere that mas means: to send, or dismiss and therefore Christmas means Christ sent. I guess I’ll have to keep looking.
Thanks, and God bless.
Diane,
I have read on some Roman site that mass did, at first, mean to dismiss or end. As I understand it, the blasphemous Roman Eucharist is the last part of the worship and therefor symbolizes the “mass”. Since this is the focal point of the Roman worship service, the entire worship service slowly became known as “the mass”.
I did not make a note of where I read that.
Manfred,
I remember reading something like that as well…something about people present at the mass (there was a name given to them but I don’t remember) who were being ‘dismissed’ before the Eucharist part of the mass as they could not partake, or something like that, maybe they weren’t Catholics yet. I remember reading that the dismissal meaning may have come from these people being dismissed or sent out from the mass and that came to be the name for the whole service—the mass, although I don’t think there was a specific reason given as to why this transpired. I don’t remember the site which discussed this, as I have looked at so many in the last month.
Thanks for your help, it is much appreciated.
I am so very thankful to my Lord and Savior that I am not in that false manmade religion. I grieve for those people, my brother included, who are so deceived.
Good Evening,
I’ve been following this discussion from a distance till now. Our family (my husband, myself and our children) left this “season” behind this year as well, much to the displeasure of both our families. One brother told other family members we’d converted to Judaism and by next year we’d be muslim if we kept acting like this. LOL – C’mon! We just want to live our lives by what the SCRIPTURE says…. not what man nor RCC has decreed to be so. We want to honor Jesus as our Saviour and worship HIM only!
Here are a few links that I’ve found helpful.
Thanks, Unprofitable Servant. We’re already fans of Last Trumpet but hadn’t read this before :)
http://www.messianic.com/articles/liesofxmas.htm
http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/CGG/ID/1143/Christmas-Pagan-Origins-of.htm
I haven’t completely researched everything out there yet either but know enough to know that “Christians” do NOT belong in “christ-mass”!
God bless as you continue looking to honor Him alone.
B&W….bless your hearts!
And praise be to the Lord Jesus Christ.
I will tell you that there will be MUCH persecution,
and mostly from the “religious” family/friends.
It is extremely hard sometimes, but the blessings
received from obedience are, well…. PRICELESS.
Some really great dialogue which I am thankful for as I too have struggled with how to celebrate Christmas, if at all.
On a side note, when we discuss not eating foods/meats offered to idols, I learnt a number of years ago that almost 100% of chickens in Australia are killed Halal style, so as Muslims can eat them. Many abattoirs are also killing other animals Halal style and even have Islamic “Holy” men (oxymoron if you ask me) employed in the abattoirs so that all meats can be “blessed”.
I know all of this as my husband owned a butchery and most meat, (poultry especially) came in marked as having been killed Halal style. It was near impossible to source alternate products. Also, most airlines only buy and serve meats that have been “blessed” in this manner as many of their passengers are Muslim and must be catered for.
I contacted several members of Parliament in a bid to make this known and an awareness raised, as I think we have a right to know that our food has been cursed. It was treated as though I was another insane fundamentalist Christian.
I for one make sure that I pray God’s blessing over the food I eat and serve to my family.
Ann-Elise,
I shudder to think how the Muslims are changing the world – Europe in the 16th century comes to mind.
Regarding the food down under – Christians are not forbidden from eating food prepared as you describe. We are free to take it with thanksgiving unto our God, knowing the Muslim god is nothing more than a dead man.
Peace in Christ from another who is struggling to determine if, what, and how to celebrate the birth of our Lord.
One of the problems of becoming so engrossed in the arguments such as this thread, is that often it will lead to a form of legalism. There is a difference between being holy and being legalistic. The last statement by Manfred, whether he meant it like this or not, shows where this kind of arguing can lead; “struggling to determine if, what, and how to celebrate the birth of our Lord”. The words I have an issue with are the “if” and “how”. Of course we are to celebrate the birth of our Lord. And as far as how, we are to honor Him with everything we have. Yes, Christmas is often turned into meaningless things, and many of the traditions of the holiday are of questionable origin, and the whole mass thing, but every year at this time people who normally do not think upon things of Christ do so whether they want to admit it or not. We can use this time of the year, whether it was actually the time of His birth or not, to reach people with the gospel. I urge you all not to get so caught up in arguing about things like this that you cause another to stumble. There are many things that we do need to loudly proclaim as wrong and dangerous. Other things not so much. Is celebrating Christmas going to endanger your faith? Certainly not. Can listening to false teachers? Yes.
I was reading Titus and this book has much good to say about these things. Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. Titus 1:10-11 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake. Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
And Spurgeon has to say about this last verse:
“Avoid foolish questions.”
–Titus 3:9
Our days are few, and are far better spent in doing good, than in disputing over matters
which are, at best, of minor importance. The old schoolmen did a world of mischief by
their incessant discussion of subjects of no practical importance; and our Churches suffer
much from petty wars over abstruse points and unimportant questions. After everything
has been said that can be said, neither party is any the wiser, and therefore the
discussion no more promotes knowledge than love, and it is foolish to sow in so barren a
field. Questions upon points wherein Scripture is silent; upon mysteries which belong to
God alone; upon prophecies of doubtful interpretation; and upon mere modes of observing
human ceremonials, are all foolish, and wise men avoid them. Our business is neither to
ask nor answer foolish questions, but to avoid them altogether; and if we observe the
apostle’s precept (Titus 3:8) to be careful to maintain good works, we shall find ourselves
far too much occupied with profitable business to take much interest in unworthy,
contentious, and needless strivings.
There are, however, some questions which are the reverse of foolish, which we must not
avoid, but fairly and honestly meet, such as these: Do I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ?
Am I renewed in the spirit of my mind? Am I walking not after the flesh, but after the
Spirit? Am I growing in grace? Does my conversation adorn the doctrine of God my
Saviour? Am I looking for the coming of the Lord, and watching as a servant should do
who expects his master? What more can I do for Jesus? Such enquiries as these urgently
demand our attention; and if we have been at all given to cavilling, let us now turn our
critical abilities to a service so much more profitable. Let us be peace-makers, and
endeavour to lead others both by our precept and example, to “avoid foolish questions.” (from his morning and evening devotionals)
Just some encouragement and some light exhortation. Thank you for your time reading this.
I also believe we are free to eat whatever we want based on 1 Corinthians 8:4
“Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one(!).”
We decided that if we are going to celebrate the birth of our Lord it will be done during the Feast of Tabernacles in the fall of next year. This has been deemed the most likely time of His birth. Scripture says nothing about celebrating His birth, only to remember His death with the taking of the Last Supper. THIS we will definately do during the Passover festival.
God bless you all as you continue to seek His face in all this.
I’ve already said my piece about this day and have acknowledged the differences of people’s beliefs therein. Nevertheless, we must be clear in that there is nothing “foolish” in people seeking to purge out of their lives and the church of Jesus Christ the unBiblical traditions of men that have become doctrine and leavened the church. For if such were the MO of the church, then the Reformation never would have happened and darkness would still cover the land due to the adding to and taking away from God’s word. Both of which we are explicitly commanded not to do.
Brother Michael,
The only thing that stood out for me as well in Truther’s above comment was the part about avoiding foolish questions.
It is also my opinion that it is not a foolish question regarding christmas. It is certainly something a lot of people do not wish to discuss…that is what I am finding.
When I mention to friends, family, acquaintances: Do you know what the word Christmas means and why do you say Merry Christmas? The response is either, I don’t know, what do you mean?, blank stares or it’s just what we say. I don’t think it is ever foolish to question why one does or says something.
Diane, I agree with you, I do not think it is a “foolish question”. It is much bigger than we know. The roots go really deep. I believe that people are accountable for the knowledge that they receive, whether they agree with it or not. Like someone asked me once….. “How do you UN-plow?”…..you cannot.
Berean Gal,
So true! Ignorance is bliss.
Not for a Christian, however.
I believe there is nothing wrong with asking questions and they’re certainly not foolish! If we are ever to fully “Come out of her” we need to know what it is we should be leaving behind.
Thanks to this, and a few other sites, we have learned many things that Satan would have loved for us not to know!
I basically just ignored Truther comments because his/her whole write up seems to be works driven and I find strong hints of emergent thoughts in his/her writings, most that are not “Truth”er.
B&W, I agree, some of what Truther said was a bit
confusing/disturbing to me also.
Diane, you are correct, most “christians” cover their ears/eyes/mouth, shake their heads and pretend that they do not hear/see/and refuse to speak. It will not matter on Judgment Day if they fain “ignorance”, they will be accountable nontheless.
This issue should make true Christians research everything that they have been taught as “christian”, the traditions of men, etc.
For instance…. New Years Celebrations, Valentine’s Day, Easter (Ishtar), all have roots in pagan revelry.
From a Biblical perspective, there are few things more unChristlike than an uncharitable spirit. In the Lord, we have Christian liberty. However, that liberty only goes as far as it does not cross the line of another’s liberty. MacArthur did a very good job in addressing the issue of Christmas and others here have done well in giving their objections to the celebration of the birth of Christ. If one is not careful, they can cross the line though in condemning another true believer in a matter that has NOTHING to do with the matter of salvation.
There are many other issues at stake which we address which are rarely commented on or addressed. It is normally only select topics where people come out of the woodwork to ride their own personal hobbyhorse. They are free to do so, but I am afraid it speaks volumes when the stomping all over a particular subject all the time is more important than addressing things like missions or vital doctrines.
For what it is worth, the majority of the missions articles written here are the least viewed and searched for of all the blogposts on DefCon! Why is Christmas, Driscoll, Piper, the MD, etc. so much more important than missions?
Seeking Charity and a Christ-like Spirit,
The Desert Pastor
The problem with trying to change everything is that most of the things we do are based in a pagan society. We even worship on Sunday which was NOT commanded by the Lord. I have heard that we were commanded to worship on a Sunday all my life and have taken it as a matter of course without researching to see if it was so or not.
Every place I looked that spoke about the first day of the week, I noticed there was NO place that said we were to worship on the Sunday. I have read places where it states that either Constantinople changed worship to a Sunday, other places state that the early Christians changed it to Sunday to remember the death of Jesus Christ. I haven’t seen anything that would denote that Jesus rose on Sunday but I have read how the disciples went on the first day of the week, early in the morning, to visit the grave. They also met in the upper room IN FEAR on the first day of the week not because they were waiting for the Lord to show up.
As I have spent all my life worshiping the Lord on Sunday, I have no issues with continuing it. If Christmas was started by the catholic church and worshiping on Sunday was started by Constantine (who was the first pope in the catholic church and not to say he definitely did it but there is a pointing in that direction) then maybe worship on Sunday was started by pagans. Does this mean that we ditch it all and start our own thing?
I have to say that we were at the point that some of you are now. We completely ditched Christmas and Easter (if you didn’t know Easter is a celebration of Ishtar or otherwise known as Isis. If anyone ever watched “Wonder Woman” back in the 80′s, you would remember that Lynda Carter, the woman who played that part, used to say, “O mighty Isis” to turn into Wonder Woman and it all ties in together.) These are holidays started by pagans but the Bible still is very clear in Romans 14:
Rom. 14:5-23, “One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
“He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
“For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
“For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s.
“For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
“But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
“For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
“So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
“Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way.
“I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
“But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
“Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
“For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
“For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
“Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
“For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
“It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
“Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
“And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.”
As The Desert Pastor so gently put it, “If one is not careful, they can cross the line though in condemning another true believer in a matter that has NOTHING to do with the matter of salvation.” As this does not affect our salvation, we need to be careful that we don’t go overboard on it. If that is your conviction not to celebrate Christmas or Easter or Sunday, you do it to the Lord. If you celebrate these days than do it to the Lord because it is to the Lord that you stand or fall. We do appreciate what you have to say about it because some people have major concerns and need to come to an understanding in faith because whatsoever is not of faith is sin!
It was not my intent to “cross” any lines.
This was a calendar relevant topic, and I was
only trying to provoke some thought about
things that we mechanically do without knowing
why we do them.
I do read other articles and issues on here, do
not always comment, like I said, this one was
relevant because of the date.
Sorry if I offended, not my intention at all.
Berean Gal,
Thanks for your gracious response. There was no offense taken. My intention was to point out the necessity of having Christlikeness in our words and thoughts toward those who may very well disagree with us on issues that are not clearly delineated in Scripture and in which there is the matter of individual soul liberty.
You are correct in your point that many times we do things without knowing why we do them. However, when study and research is done, the decision must then be left to the individual conscience of each true believer as they are guided by the Holy Spirit. I hope this clarifies and thanks again for your response.
DP:
You asked….
Why is Christmas, Driscoll, Piper, the MD, etc. so much more important than missions?
If one goes into missions with the screwed up doctrines that are taught by the likes of Piper, Driscoll, Warren etc. they’re mission is likely to be doomed from the start because they are not going to be teaching from God’s word solely. Instead they will be teaching from what has infiltrated their thinking which has been mixed with twisted scripture instead of on what God alone says to teach. That is why these topics are more relevant BEFORE the missions topic get addressed.
I know a woman who recently went to Thailand on missions and has succeeded in teaching the people in her tribe how to carve pumpkins for helloween and pray to the river, asking IT’S forgiveness for abusing it! (I know this because I’ve seen her updates on facebook, not by what other’s have said so it’s not by gossip that I’ve learned about this.) She faithfully attend a well known “Bible” college to learn about how to go about her work in missions. This college also has mandatory reading and studying of books like The Shack and Brian McClaren’s New Kind of Christian. They are not read as a warning to avoid this doctrine but how to work it into your own life!
Is this what they mean by being culturely relevant?
I’m all for missions. Our family supports several missionaries and children through Gospel For Asia.
I believe that the people raised in their own culture make the best witnesses to what God is capable of doing.
If you are offended by my stand for Christ and His Holy word alone (Solus Christus, Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Soli Deo Gloria) feel free to email me and I will leave this post.
In His Service…
B&W,
I am not offended by anybody who takes a stand for Christ. The reason for my response is because people can take issues of conscience to a point where they try to place those unnecessarily on others who should have an equal right of individual soul liberty.
MacArthur can study the issue of Christmas and comes to a different conclusion than others here do. Each of us are responsible before God for what we allow in our homes. If my family chooses to give gifts on a date in December and we can do so with a clear conscience before God having also studied the issue, we have the liberty to do so. On the other hand, if you choose not to give gifts, that is also your right as a Christian to avoid or disregard the holiday. However, neither of us have the liberty or the principles of Scripture to castigate the other for the choice made in this particular issue.
I agree with your statements on doctrines and missions. While I personally disagree with certain aspects of GFA, you choose to support them. Again, as with Christmas, we each make decisions that obviously affect our families. Yes, people raised in their own culture do make the best witnesses (or missionaries) to their own people; however, there is still a place for the work of teachers to national churches and pastors.
The problem here is that missions is always relevant. If there is no missions, there is no spreading of the gospel message. The issue of Christmas will NEVER be more relevant than the message of missions. That is to place strictures on the Word of God that are nowhere to be found.
If I have misunderstood your comment or if I have not clarified my own, feel free to respond. Thanks for your response.