In Christ,
- Jeff H

Why can’t this church do both… build a ridiculously beautiful and functional church that glorifies God, tends to its congregation’s spiritual needs, AND feed the poor?? I wonder how many people complained on this blog, and don’t do what they can to feed the poor? I wonder how many people here will think nothing about spending a lot of money to go to a sports event, or some other entertainment, and only throw a dollar (or nothing) in the offering plate on Sunday… or, don’t go to church at all… or, are negligent when giving for the poor. I have a feeling, there are a bunch of hypocrites here.

I just got done watching Dr. Robert Jefress on “Christ in Prophecy” w/ Dr. David Reagan, on TV, and Dr. Jefress is in no way, politically correct in his views, and comes out swinging on the subjects of evolution, homosexuality, abortion, and Jesus, as being the one and only way to heaven.

There’s nowhere in the Bible that says, Christians must do God’s work from straw huts and live on the streets while fulfilling the Great Commission. At first, I thought, this was a waist of money, BUT, if this church is winning souls while NOT cheapening the gospel or biblical truth, AND have their mission field, and this church isn’t only a social club… I’M ALL FOR IT!!!

I have this feeling too, that most of the comments here are from the ACLU, atheists, and other God haters, who can’t stand it, that God is getting this kind of attention. Just remember, how beautiful the Temple in Jerusalem must’ve been, and that the Ark of the Covenant was made out of gold (even though the Israelites were poor and wallowed in the desert for 40 yrs.), and just how huge and wonderful New Jerusalem will look like when it comes to Earth.

If anyone thinks I’m a member with this church, I’m not. I live in Illinois, and I wished the liberal thinking churches around here would do something to grow souls for Jesus.

Why should Satan have all the nice buildings? Paper money is worthless in reality (and it’s getting more worthless daily), and if we can use it to grow Jesus’ Church (true believers in Jesus), then why not? What is a soul worth? More than that church, and if this church can be used as a tool to win souls, then go for it. Just don’t water down the Gospel message, and keep exposing the evolution lies, homosexual agenda, and that abortions kill human beings who were created by God.

It’s all about numbers, it’s not about bringing salvation.

Did you know that Dr. Robert Jefress told staff members at his former church (FBC Whitchita Falls) that if a certain amount of people did not walk down to the alter on a certain Sunday, he’d fire him.

In my opinion, Jefress is a punk. And many in the SBTC would agree. I’m now with a God fearing, people loving church, and it’s great.

He traveled on “roads” on which his horse sank many times knee-deep in mud. If a road did not exist, he would lead his horse over the steep, rocky inclines of the Appalachians to reach a pioneer community. Many times, his feet and legs were bloodied and bruised by the horrific journey. When he came to a river where there was no bridge or ferry, he would swim his horse across. Numerous times, he was nearly drowned by an angry, swollen stream. His “hotel” on many occasions was on a dirt floor in an overcrowded, rat-infested frontier cabin. Oftentimes he slept in the woods, on a mountain ledge or in damp cave. Many days he would travel over 60 miles with nothing to eat. The paths and roads he traveled were full of dangers from murderers, thieves, wolves, bears, poisonous snakes and roaming bands of Native Americans with whom the frontiersmen were at war. If he met someone who needed a cloak, food or money, he would take what he had and give it to the person in need. Asbury sought out the forgotten, hidden places of early America. He traveled from New England, to the Midwest, and to the Deep South spreading the Gospel of Christ. When he would meet a person who was ill, he would minister to their physical needs with the last medication he had. Often, his place a preaching was in a grove of trees, a borrowed tavern or school. His worldly possessions were a horse, the clothing he wore and a few provisions in his saddle bag. He demanded nothing of others in order to come into a community. The demands he made were of himself. Frequently, his body would be racked with pain, illness, fever, hunger and weakness. His physical being would cry out for rest and nourishment. However, his spirit ruled his body. When truly unable to travel, he would mount his horse and ride for 8 hours or more through blinding snowstorms, torrential rain or in oppressive heat. His passion was to win souls for Christ at any cost.

Hebrews 11:32-38 speaks about the early heroes of the faith: They were…“tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Still others had trial of mocking and beatings, and of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented…they wandered in deserts, and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth… of whom the world was not worthy.”
My God, how far we have fallen! Millions are dying and going to hell while we build palaces for our comfort and our ego. God is calling on us as His people to repent and turn from our wicked ways. He is calling us to seek HIS face and seek the lost. Oh that we may return to the faith of our fathers. May God give us shepherds after His own heart

I just ran across this article (I read the blog from which it comes from regularly). Perhaps your view of love fits better with what Ken Silva reports?

http://apprising.org/2010/01/21/the-softer-gentler-christ/

By your own standard (“Not knowing the hearts of those in leadership of FB dallas, I’ll not debate the relevancy of their building program”), you shouldn’t be debating my standing in Christ :-) Come to Houston and let’s talk. I enjoy such conversation with people I know.

Not knowing the hearts of those in leadership of FB dallas, I’ll not debate the relevancy of their building program with you. However, I will ask You, based on your obvious passion for people to be saved, do/have you actually shared Christ with ALL those You come in contact with, whether in the streets, at your work place, etc.? Are YOU doing what You are Preaching to Others?

Did you receive Christ in a Church, or do you even attend Church, or, who knows, maybe you’re a Pastor, or pehaps you aren’t a Christian at all, and are seeking to damage the Kingdom…its hard to tell, Brother!
My confusion stems from the “tone” of your militant content and bias comments, that sound NOTHING like a Live Transformed by a REAL Relationship with Thee KING of Kings.

As has been said by many folks over the years – if you win folks with methods (carpet, fancy sound systems, etc.) somebody with better methods can/will win them away.

If folks do not desire the gospel, they are not of the church anyways. Evangelism is to happen in the streets and homes – not the primary mission of the gathering of saints on Sunday.

I am not sure about Don Green.

Blessings.

- The Pilgrim

I am part of what you could call, the “Grace” churches. You know the ones; men called of God who studied at the Master’s Seminary then go and plant churches around the States and globe.

Whilst I have never attended Sun Valley I am familar with the construct. I think it is quite a large call to say that no other elder shares that [being the voice/face of the church].

First name that comes to mind is Phil Johnson.

Blessings.

Ps. You would be happy to know that our elders dont throw the name “senior pastor” etc around. And our “senior pastor” does not even particularly like the term emphasized in his title.

No offense.

My view is amillennial – I think the dispy view of the church is dead wrong. I’ve read comments from MacArthur from a conference earlier this year wherein he all but called people who weren’t dispy’s heretics. A.W. Pink sums up a good review of dispensationalism – http://www.fivesolas.com/applican.htm

As far as the construct of Mac’s church – it’s as I mentioned: he is the senior pastor, the public face and voice of that church, with no other elder sharing that. The Bible doesn’t know rank among elders and pastors are to be shepherds – a man can’t do that if the church gets so large they have to adopt corporate hierarchy to “manage” things. The church needs elders who know the people and can pastor them, who are equal to one another and keep each other from emerging as “the man”. As good a preacher Mac is, he is but a man. As good a job he does as pointing people to Christ, I think it’s wrong for him to be THE preacher and senior pastor. Those things make too much of the man.

I dislike having “the pastor’s name” (should be a plurality of elders) on church signs, etc. The messenger is not important – the message is.

Oh I know you didn’t say that, that’s why I said I don’t know if MacArthur is of that group or not. Wasn’t trying to go after you for that. Was just putting that out there. =)

Just curious (that’s it, not trying to start a fight, I promise, lol), what about John’s views of dispensationalism and the construct of his church do you disagree with?

I did not say MacArthur and Piper were in the cult of personality, I said it appears that way. What other excuse is there for one man being the only preacher in front of large numbers of people that he cannot pastor?

I disagree with MacArthur on dispensationalism and the construct of his church. Piper’s problems are less subtle, some of which are documented here: http://defendingcontending.com/2009/11/05/piper-the-slope-to-heresy/

- Pilgrim

I don’t know what Grace Community Church’s seating is like but I think Pilgrim was referring to FBC of Dallas spending $130 million dollars on a huge building where there are only 3,000 people attending.

As for the Cult of Celebrity with MacArthur, I don’t know if that is true or not with him.

Just my two cents. =)

I heard a statistic on the radio that if all of the Christians in the U.S. paid their tithes there would be enough money to prevent children from dying from preventable disease in all of the world, enough to feed all of the children that are dying from hunger in the whole world, and there were a few other things that I can’t remember. It was staggering to hear what could be accomplished.

The thing is though, that here in the U.S. if everyone paid their tithes we would probably just build bigger and bigger “church” buildings. Some churches build bigger buildings when they aren’t even filling up the one that they currently have (speaking from experience).

Elders are called to shepherd/pastor their flocks – not manage them. There is no rank among elders in the Bible, no pastors who are not elders in the Bible.

On this issue, I do not understand MacArthur or Piper. They appear to be participants in the so-called “cult of celebrity”.

Point taken. I missed the part about the church only seating 3,000.

- The Pilgrim

Multiple services or campuses comprise multiple congregations, not merely parts of one church. This represents the episcopal model of governance, which posits a man being more of an overlord than a pastor.

You’re making the assumption that when a church grows to a certain size that it cannot be pastored. Is there a Biblical basis for that assumption or simply human reasoning/tradition? I don’t know this particular church, but I think it is unfair to rush to judgment. I’m not a big fan of mega-churches, but my perception has changed over the last year. We moved for job reasons, and the mega-church in our area (over 5K people) is one of the only churches that we could find that actually focuses on expository preaching and doesn’t have women pastors. We joined the young marrieds group and were happily surprised that most of the people in this group have a deep understanding of scripture. This church highly encourages people to join a small group. Most of the pastoring isn’t done just once a week during a Sunday service, but through iron-sharpening-iron through the body of believers during the week.

You also make the assumption that the multiple services, campuses, and huge buildings are a testiment to man and not God. I think that’s an unfair assessment given that this isn’t some start-up church marketing to the masses, but an established church that is busting at its seems. Is this church’s motive for building a new campus so that it can bring glory to itself or so that it can bring glory to God by being a light in the city and make disciples?

Rationalizing the program as you’ve done misses the point: it fails to be a church when it grows so large that is cannot be pastored. It’s a corporation claiming to be a church, program driven rather than bible based.

As well put by Richard Baxter in his “Reformed Pastor”, “When we are commanded to take heed to all the flock, it is plainly implied that flocks must ordinarily be no greater than we are capable of overseeing, or ‘taking heed to’.”

This mad growth with multiple service, campuses, and huge buildings is a testimony to man, not God.

It’s a poor use of money no matter what the city looks like.

The comments on this board seem to rush to condemnation. This church might have a different approach, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s unbiblical. Someone suggested spending $500K on a building and using the rest for Bibles. That wouldn’t even begin to pay for the land. Someone else suggested building churches on another continent that would accomodate 100-150 for every $1MM spent. Using that math, then you can justify spending $130MM on a church of 10,000-20,000. I don’t know the size of this church, but it could be in that range.

The cost of building this church doesn’t seem out of line with a building this size in a city or the cost per person in a smaller church. Should Christians just abondon the cities just because it’s perceived as too costly?