I think if you go back and read all of my entries concerning this article, you will find that I agree with you about the fact that what they did was wrong. I wouldn’t do it, and I wouldn’t recommend that anyone do it either.
There were people writing on this blog that said that youth ministry is bad, that it produces false converts, etc. That was said in the same post that suggested that it was impossible to determine whether someone was truly saved. Don’t you think that it is wrong to say that it’s impossible to know, then strongly state that youth ministry produces false converts? How would you know? You wouldn’t.
As far the “in spite of” statement…. Again, someone said here that the fact that my wife and I both received Christ through our respective youth ministries was God moving in spite of youth ministry, not because of it. My point is that everything that God has done has been in spite of a man or a woman’s inadequacies. Every message ever preached has been laced with the fallibility of man who was preaching it. Yet, God moved on people’s hearts.
As I said, I agree that the stupidity in this article is gross and unnecessary. I also know that because of it, all youth ministry is not bad, all youth pastors are not idiots, and there is the possibility that there can be fruit from a ministry that has made even the worst mistakes.

Doubt you will read this, but….

God can always save people “in spite of”, but that doesn’t make the actions of these youth pastors right. There is definitely ways to draw in youth that is okay, but using gross out tactics definitely goes against the Bible. And while God can and does work in spite of these things, this does not make those actions right to begin with. Quite the opposite, it only punctuates our inadequacy and God’s grace. Most of those children wont be “saved”, though I cannot judge their hearts, we can judge their actions and that more than anything shows where someone’s heart is at, and even God at times, can give us insight in to someone’s heart, so while we cannot judge someone’s salvation state, God can show us. Regardless, the point is, those tactics are still very unbiblical and pastor’s who used them do need to have a serious heart to heart with God. I can attest that a lot of times I have “good” ideas that I think are from God and have acted on them, but even if there was a few good results, in the end because I want to do what God wants, I usually realize I acted presumptuously and repent. None of us are Holy by nature, we all need to surrendur our fleshly nature to God each every day and check every single action against the entire context of God’s word, not just one verse, chapter, or book. And when we do that, it really keeps us from following fanciful notions and ideas or doing gross out things.

All this article did was make me sick to my stomach and want to cry.

God Bless ~Amy

I apologize for the sarcasm. That is not how I want to bow out.

About the whole “judgment” thing… All I was saying is that it’s hypocritical to tell me that I can’t judge that someone is truly converted and then turn around and say “undeniable reality is that youth groups are churning out false converts”. Using your own logic, that’s impossible for you to determine since “you do not know their hearts anymore than you know anyone else’s.”

I want to say that I appreciate what everyone has said here. I really do. For the record, I want to say that I haven’t condoned what these youth pastors did in the original article.

My main point was, and still is, that in spite of their shenanigans, they actually do preach the truth to the kids in their church. That’s all. I know that some of you choose not to believe that is possible. I’m okay with that.

THE PILGRIM said that God saved kids IN SPITE of youth group not BECAUSE OF it. Everything God has ever done has been IN SPITE of man’s sin, rebellion, ignorance, and disobedience. But thank God for His forgiveness and grace. Everyone here is lost without it… including myself.

Well, that’s a start. But how does having people lick peanut butter off your armpits teach anybody about righteousness? How does chewing up food, spitting it into a glass and asking people to drink it lead one into sanctification and holiness?

See, the problem for many youth “pastors” is this: they know nothing about holiness. And without holiness, no one can see God. Those aren’t my words, those are the words of Scripture. Hebrews 12:14–Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.

You mentioned in your earlier comment So, if we need to head out to the neighborhood and present the gospel to lost people in a way that they can understand it, then I guess I don’t see anything wrong with that. And how does licking peanut butter off someone’s armpit accomplish that? Yes, we do need to present the gospel in a way people can understand. But in the 5 years I have been teaching Bible study in the projects, we have never had to stoop to those kinds of indignities to teach people the truth. If you are just real with people, showing them the truth in love, they will respond. Or maybe they won’t. But to incorporate the kinds of things these guys are doing is a disgrace to the true church. Sorry, but it is.

Let me finish with this scenario: A teenager lives with his parents who drink and fight all the time. They are about to get a divorce. He is angry and bitter at the world, and he acts out that bitterness by running with a bunch of juvenile delinquents, smashing windows and spray-painting everything in sight. He has no hope for the future. Then a kid at school gets to know him and invites him to his church. The troubled youth has heard of Jesus, and thinks this may be where he can find hope.

But when he walks into the church, he sees a bunch of men who are supposed to be acting like adults, and they are playing all these stupid gross-out games. The youth looks around at the nonsense going on around him, and thinks “These people aren’t any different than anyone else. this ‘church stuff’ is a bunch of bull. I’m outta here.” He walks out the door, sulks down the street, into an alley. The one chance he thought he had of ever finding hope–and he found no hope, just a bunch of men who never grew up. He puts his gun to his head and pulls the trigger, never knowing Christ. Now, are all these stupid games “worth it?”

I am in total agreement that discipleship is important. In fact, on my blog I have posted about older women teaching younger women (Titus 2) and I have stressed how important it is. I find, however, that no matter how much I want to disciple people it will NOT happen unless the Lord allows me to do so. Once again we are back to keeping our focus on the Lord instead of people. You can’t force people to sit there and listen to you disciple them. I have learned that I must leave it in the Lord’s hands or I will make a mess of it. This is why it is so important to focus on the Lord and not on people. Yes, I disciple people when the Lord provides them but I cannot plant myself in front of everyone and say, “Ok, I’m going to disciple you…like it or not!” I tried that when I was quite a bit younger in the Lord and made a huge mess of things! I felt then that it was important to focus on discipling the people so they would be strong Christians and learn to disciple others! I found that it didn’t work that way and I only ended up frustrated because I wondered how come they couldn’t see the realities of discipleship. The Lord brought me to a point where I had to step back and look at Him instead of the people because I wasn’t God and they wouldn’t change unless the Lord changed them. I could teach the whole Bible to them and still there would be no change without the Lord doing the work.

Just because God’s focus is on people does NOT mean ours should be on people. In fact, if you keep your focus on people instead of God you will end up discouraged, angry and maybe even bitter because people will let you down. You will also begin to find that the TRUTH goes out the door because “people” cannot change you to become more like the Lord Jesus Christ. Our focus, no matter what, should be the Lord Jesus Christ and, as He opens the door, then we disciple whoever He brings into our lives as long as they are willing to listen. If we keep our focus on Him then we are continuing to change, grow and become more like the Lord Jesus Christ.

I also am thankful that I get to be a part of people’s lives and help them to grow in areas through discipleship but that is not the end of all things. The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. 1 Cor. 10:35; Ps. 73:25, 26. If you focus on anything other than God then you have made that thing a god in and of itself. When you focus on God then, in His timing and His way, He brings into your life the people to disciple, the things you are supposed to do, the trials and tribulations (etc.) that help you to grow and become more like Him! No, God is to be the focus no matter what happens in our lives.

“Honor the elderly in the body of Christ, find Godly men and women and sit at their feet, listen, learn and you will do well.”

Sound counsel indeed. The older I get, the more I find the wisdom in honoring and obeying the God given plan of learning and benefiting from the elders in the faith. Not “elders” in the sense of some 40, 50 or 60-something guy who is elected to fill a slot in the “elder board”, but “elder” as someone seasoned, mature in the Faith, and who fills the biblical qualifications. When we get away from God’s ordered plan, we have chaos, destruction, disintegration.

I exhort you and all the youth pastors out there to drop the 50-year failed experiment, return to the preaching of the Word, and the expositing of the Scriptures for the growth and edification of the saints, and for the conversion of the unregenerate. For it is not the latest youth program, the coolest youth pastor, or the sickest gross-out game that is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, it is the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

I concur and also encourage CJ and all to focus on the Biblical model whereby the youth (as well as the body at large) are to learn from elders. Elders who have wisdom and years of experience that cannot be learned in seminary or by reading the latest and greatest book. Wisdom you will most assuredly not find in some hip 20-something pointy hair styling “youth pastor” who still has zits and lives with his parents. Honor the elderly in the body of Christ, find Godly men and women and sit at their feet, listen, learn and you will do well.

“He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.” (Prov 13:20)

NO! We don’t. We give him truth and warn him of danger.

TRUTH AND PROTECTIVE WARNINGS!!!

Same with the Gospel: The Message is LIFE SAVING!

Don’t turn it into a game.

PERIOD.

You said “You sound like Bill Clinton trying to define the word “is”. take “so” out but you can’t take “love” out. He showed His LOVE by going to the cross. When He was smitten with His creation He flooded the earth and took everyone out. When He died on the cross it was to demonstrate His love toward us. Romans 5:8.

“He did miracles because he had compassion on people.”

The little adverb, “so” is “so” (adjective) important.

God’s love is main God centered, not man centered. It’s not as though God has need of man or anything man can do.

He flooded the world when He was angry, not smitten (context, once again, is important).

The salvific love of God that is demonstrated by and given to us by Christ is toward His elect – not the whole unredeemed world. The common grace shed upon all men represents a type of love God has for everyone. It’s not the same as His redemptive grace and the special love He has for His elect.

And nothing man can do can shift a person from being spiritually dead to elect, much less to spiritually alive.

It’s human reasoning. It may on the surface sound logical. But it is not biblical reasoning. Nor is such a pattern displayed anywhere in the Scriptures. And the fruit born does not, for the hundreds I have personally known, show truly transformed lives into Christlikeness.

The examples given above in this original post should reveal to any sensible person some of the offensive behavior that takes place under the pretext of “getting down on their level”. What is the inherent difference between predigesting food, spitting it back into a cup and making others drink it, and defecating in a bowl and making others eat it? At what point do we say, ENOUGH! At what point does it become obvious that we are just catering to the vilest, grossest, appeals to the flesh of the unsaved, under the thinly veiled excuse that we are trying to “reach them for Christ” or “being relevant”? Where is “being relevant” in this manner taught anywhere in God’s word? And they insist that is love? What love is there in that (either for God and His righteousness, or for the person)? What part of “make no provision for the flesh” (Rom.13:14) don’t people understand?

God has given His word for our instruction and guidance. We have seen what happened over and again when man attempts to do things his way, even if “for God and His glory”. We have seen the Israelites utterly fail at Ai, when they charged in without God’s approval. We have seen what happened to the sons of Aaron who attempted to worship God in a way He has not approved. We have seen what happened at Korah’s rebellion. God’s word is specific and detailed that we do things God’s way or reap the consequences.

We look back at the followers of Jim Jones and say, how could people have been so blind? How could they have followed a man to do whatever he asked them? Yet this very day, there are church pastors, and youth leaders, in positions of authority, claiming to represent Christ, saying they “love Jesus”, committing the vilest behavior, seemingly devoid of any conscience, and people blindly doing as they are led. Worse yet, there are people who vigorously defend them, condemning those of us who would, out of love, warn God’s people to be wary of them, falsely accusing us of being “unloving”! Outrageous!

These youth ‘pastors’ have sullied the Lord’s Name.

“But we can throw it out because if people become the focus then we have lost the proper focus! God is always the focus…not people. Some plant, some water but GOD gives the increase! No matter how much you want people to get saved, they won’t unless the Holy Spirit draws them to Himself!”

I understand where you are going with this, however I completely disagree with what this statement implies. If our PERSONAL salvation was the end all of our purpose then our continued existence would be in heaven (God would pluck us up upon salvation). If HIS focus is on people, should not ours be also? There are so many scriptures defining our position as disciple makers, seeking the lost. Agreed that in ourselves we can save no one, however to think that God doesn’t use us in the process is incorrect.

I am thankful every time that I get to be a ‘part’ of the process, knowing that it is not ME who can save anything, it is God. Shouldn’t the number one focus of the very existence of all that is good in our lives be our focus too?

So in love with HIM….

Sincerely,
- The Pilgrim

For the record, you didn’t come across angry. I understand where you are coming from yet there is hypocrisy in what you just said. You can’t tell me (or others) to stop making judgments about whether or not these kids are saved and then turn right around and make a judgment that they are not saved.

It’s not a dishonest argument. It’s not an matter of location, its a matter of using an “unscriptural” method to share the gospel with people. This overall argument isn’t so much about the office of a youth pastor as it is the methods they use.

And what’s funny is that you were a goat who had been convinced that you were a sheep for 9 1/2 years. My wife and I both have the exact opposite story as you. We were both eternally changed by the ministry we received in our respective youth ministries. We both lived pure, loved God, honored our parents, and still walk with God 20 years later.

Sorry, you just can’t tell me that youth ministry can’t make a positive difference in people’s lives. It does. I am the fruit of it. And I am not a fan of the public school system, but there are a lot of people that would disagree with the statement that you can’t be educated in public schools. Even quite a few that made major positive contributions to society.

In the end I agree that this is just going to go round and round though.

Desert,

You really set me straight. Unfortunately, nothing you said is any different than anything that anyone else said. You all seem very smart, yet you don’t seem to get it.

I’m not going to waste any more of my time going through your post point for point, because all that will happen is that you will pull out the quotes that you have a comeback for, and ignore the rest.

I have done nothing but give Biblical context for my point, but since it disagrees with your argument you guys seem to ignore it.

My intention was never to convince anyone of anything. That would obviously be futile. Everyone here already knows everything there is to know about God, the Bible, and doctrine.

I have a very basic problem with the very last thing you said – “God is always the focus…not people.” The problem with that is that if God loves people (which is a fact that no one here has been bold enough to agree with yet), then focusing on God will lead to a love for people. And that pretty much sums up my entire point from the beginning.

Alright, I appreciate the discussion, but I have to go and convince some goats that they are sheep again. I’m going to proclaim the Good News of Jesus Christ to people. Too bad “gospel” doesn’t mean bad news. I’m sure somebody here can enlighten me on how “good” actually means “bad”.

One last thing before I go. The reason that I said that to the NT believer “righteousness” is more important than sanctification and holiness is because of Romans 14:17-18 which says, “For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.”

I am a citizen of God’s Kingdom. I choose to be pleasing to God.

And because all through the NT Paul talk about how righteousness is a gift from God that we receive through faith in Christ. It isn’t earned. It’s given. Which means that it isn’t a work of the flesh.

Ok. Off to deceive the masses.

Respectfully,
- The Pilgrim

Righteousness, holiness, sanctification, and love are ALL very important in Scripture. Yes, I agree we are to love others but love also includes discipline. For some odd reason people equate sharing the truth with hatred or lack of love. As you said in one of your other comments, the gospel does offend. I will go even further and say not only does the gospel offend but doctrine divides! Matt. 10:35; Luke 12:53

Another place you made the comment that these men acted immaturely. As I have heard many times…immaturity is what children do when they accidentally wet their pants. Let us not equate adults acting in a way that does NOT bring honour and glory to the Lord to a child who has not learned to control themselves yet! Then again maybe they are acting like children who cannot control themselves but because they are pastors it is not immaturity it is sin. By the time a man becomes a pastor there should be control within or they are not fit for the ministry. This is not to say that there is no sin in us but have these youth pastors sought forgiveness publicly? Why don’t we look at those who are considered pastors which would include a youth pastor.

1Ti 3:1-8, “This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.”

Let’s look at these words and see what they mean. First the bishop must be blameless (unrebukeable, irreproachable), husband of one wife, sober (sound in mind, self-controlled, discreet, sober, temperate), of good behaviour (orderly, i.e. decorous, modest), given to hospitality, apt to teach, not given to wine, not quarrelsome, not greedy, patient (mild, gentle, moderation), not a brawler (peaceable), not covetous, one that rules well his own house, having his children in subjection with all honesty (if a man can’t even rule his own house how can he take care of the house of God?). He shouldn’t be a novice (a young convert) Hmmmm…this is beginning to show forth a pattern!
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Titus 1:6-9 goes even further,

“If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.”

I won’t go repeat what has already been said but it continues on that a bishop must not be self-willed (self-pleasing, arrogant). a lover of good men (a promoter of virtue), just (equitable in character or act, by implication…just, holy, righteous), holy (pious, sacred, sure), temperate (self-controlled in appetite), holding fast the faithful word so that he may be able by sound doctrine to exhort (invite, desire, pray) and convince (admonish, tell a fault, rebuke, reprove) the gainsayers (those who refuse to listen).

I notice that being holy in a pastor’s life IS important according to the Word of God but I believe you said it was just a great word that you believe in but they are not as important as “righteousness”. The Bible also says that a pastor should be temperate. So where do these come into play in your “idea” of things?

Since love is the new law and Jesus said to, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, strength, mind and soul and love your neighbour as yourself,” when do you love the Lord your God? Is it loving the Lord your God by putting things in your mouth then taking them out again and getting the youth to take it into their mouth? Is it wiping peanut butter on your underarms and having the youth lick it off? Does this honour and glorify God in every thing you have done. 1 Cor 10:31, “Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do ALL to the glory of God.”

Is the reality that you are not happy over what is being said about your friends and you will use whatever means you can to make your point. This is how it looks to me, anyway. Do you equate yourself to Jesus? It sure sounds like it to me. Jesus healed the sick, raised the dead, made the blind to see, etc. and I am to understand that this means Jesus “would have been classified as a circus act, or frills” according to foreveraltered?

My, my…I begin to see that maybe those people who do such things love to blame Jesus as having done it so they can continue to do it. I sure do hope I’m wrong! Or do you think that discipline is only another show of hate and bitterness? Funny how people think the only way you can love is by being quiet and letting everyone do anything and everything they want regardless of what God says in His Word. Well, I don’t expect that what we have said will change your mind any more than what you have said will change our minds. As I’ve heard on many occasions, “A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.” So, instead of trying to convince us otherwise, it’s probably a great idea to let it go.
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“…we cannot throw out the principle of making people the focus instead of the flawed, human interpretation of the law…”

But we can throw it out because if people become the focus then we have lost the proper focus! God is always the focus…not people. Some plant, some water but GOD gives the increase! No matter how much you want people to get saved, they won’t unless the Holy Spirit draws them to Himself!

My point is that there were many things that were done in antiquity that would have been classified as a circus act, or frills. Again, the idea of licking peanut butter from someone’s pit is better left an idea and not a complete thought, we cannot throw out the principle of making people the focus instead of the flawed, human interpretation of the law (which seems to be the off-track conversation taking place).

Our pursuit for truth through scholarly diligence was never to find fault in men, it is meant to understand the truth that sets men free.

Great discussions!
Thanks

He did miracles because he had compassion on people.

In John 3:16, the word, “so”, is an adverb in the Greek; it cannot be an adjective. Go back a few verses and read verse 14: “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up.”

Verse 16 means “In this manner God showed His lvoe for the world, that He gave His son …” To read it as most Amercians do – and as inferred from the way you ended your comment – is to present God as one who is so smitten with His creation that He can’t keep from tryng to save all of them. Pity so many do not cooperate.

And I am certain that if the youth pastors walked on water it could be seen as a circus act…

My point is that there is so much more to our walk, than an argument about the validity of an action. There is an opportunity in front of us all to impact the world we are living in. Unless we are making this a priority then we are missing the point of Christ.
I can completely understand the need to defend the purity of the Word, and can appreciate a pure heart for winning the lost. We just have to be careful not to change our priorities. Keep the heart right, work out your salvation, and watch as our hearts turn to the same thing….For God so LOVED the world…

The argument of youth pastor being found in scripture is maybe the worst argument against youth ministry that I’ve ever heard. As I said earlier, golf and football aren’t in scripture but it does not mean that they can’t be used by God as an conduit for the gospel.

You know, another thing that isn’t isn’t listed in scripture as an acceptable, scriptural way of communicating the gospel is digital recordings such as mp3′s. For that matter, I don’t see blogs in the Bible so this website is demonic since there are some people who use blogs to communicate filth and deception. Once someone can show me in scripture that blogs are scriptural I will need all of you to log off of this website.

If you want to talk about something that is not found in scripture, then lets talk about the internet. The internet as been documented to tear families apart so all of us should have gotten off of it a long time ago.

My point with the Pharisees was exactly what you said. That they didn’t care about her, but Jesus did. I know that you wouldn’t say that Jesus didn’t care about her.

Thank you for being so kind as to address my questions but they were rhetorical. I’ll try to live up to your standards of question asking from now on though. They are biblical questions. They all point to and expose a wrong perception. I know that all of the forms of ministry are valid, and I don’t need your “okay” to know that. God loves people. He went to great lengths to redeem mankind.

Last, I was never on a rabbit trail. I have been on point since the beginning. But again, sorry that I broke your rules for asking questions.

DavidW,
I appreciate your concern, but I assure you that I do not have any conflict to resolve concerning this. I would recommend that you read John 3:16 & 17.

fourpointer,
I don’t know where your bitterness about the word Pharisee comes from, but I wasn’t playing a gotcha game.

I think sanctification and holiness are great words. I believe in them whole heartedly. I also think that for a NT believer the word “righteousness” is more important.

You state this, ‘I happen to know Pastor Turner, Wyatt, and Sean Kelly’…this may be why you defend this youth pastor thing, yet, I do not find such an office in scripture. Am I wrong, or have I missed this in God’s word?

As for the Pharisees, they could of cared less about the woman in adultery, they were trying to trick the Lord Jesus Christ {John 8:6, ‘This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him.’} Enough rabbit trails, the post is about youth pastors/groups/ministries, let’s not divert from this.

I will address your questions, but future questions must be biblical and not hypothetical…

You asked ,’The Bible doesn’t mention anything about golf. Do you think it was okay for me to share Christ with an old friend that I ran into at the golf course today?’ My answer, yes, if you do it biblically -’I once spoke to a football team in their locker room before a game, but the Bible doesn’t mention football or locker rooms so was I in sin?’ My answer, not if you followed biblical guidelines-’I was part of a group that went into a neighborhood, and we put on a festival, gave away free food, put on a puppet show, and shared the Word. Puppet shows are no where in the Bible, so were we being demonic?’ My answer, not necessarily, but you will have no impact on lost sinners unless you preach the unadulterated Gospel, no frills, no circus acts, no entertainment…the word of God pricks the heart; not cotton candy and elephant ears.

Please refrain from any more rabbit trails, let’s stay on topic; now please give biblical evidence for the mandate of youth pastors/groups/ministries

Drats! The Pharisee Card! Foiled again!

CJ,

What do you think about words like “sanctification” and “holiness”?

(PS–I’ll be gone all day tomorrow, in case I don’t answer back this evening)

I am just a fellow reader and follower of Jesus Christ. I encourage you to read the Old Testament again, and in particular reconcile the loving God that you see in Jesus Christ of the New Testament, with the same Almighty God Who is unyielding in righteousness and holiness in the Old Testament. Once you do this, I hope the conflict you have with all this may be resolved.

In Christ,
DavidW

Maybe you missed my post that was before the one with the questions in it. (Interesting that you only answered one of them). I answered the questions that you asked.

So, you think Jesus was giving the orders to start stoning her? Or do you think Jesus knew that every single person present was an adulterer?

Just wondering.
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fourpointer,

I appreciate what you are trying to say, I really do, but let me just remind you that I didn’t post here to point out to everyone that Paul said that we should be all things to all people. I understand that context of the scripture. I haven’t had a chance to read your blog yet, but I know exactly where it’s going.

It always concerns me when someone feels that they have the “full revelation” on a scripture or a topic. I’m sure that you are a brilliant guy along with Manfred and others here. I’m sure your theology is fully sound in every way. There is probably no possibility that there could be anything that you don’t know or have the full revelation of God on. I get it. We aren’t going to see eye to eye. And I know that you believe me to be in error and living in sin and a goat who has been fooled into thinking that I am a sheep and a hateful and lazy parent. (All of these I gather from previous posts here, and things I know about some of the elders mentioned here)

If you want to take this discussion in the way of a theological debate on the true context of 1 Cor. 9 then great. Go ahead. That completely misses the point of what I saying here. I have a much bigger problem with the way that people on this post and comments have made a personal judgement about three guys (and thousands of other youth pastors) without the slightest clue of who they are, their personal character, their spiritual lives, or what they preach to the kids.

Jesus demonstrated time and time again that he cared more about the individual than the rule of law. He cared more for the woman caught in adultery than the Pharisees that wanted to stone her cared about her. If that makes you want to puke, then get a bucket. I happen to think it’s worth emulating. Jesus still cares more about people than He does about the rule of law. In fact the new law is love. You can hang all the law on it.

So, when people get on here and determine to call three guys (that they do not know) “demonic” or “stupid”, I’m sorry, but I have a problem with that. I happen to know that these guys teach kids (who in many cases have little to no Godly parental influence) that they should study the Bible, pray, and worship God daily. Terrible stuff, I know. You can say, “Well we should be teaching the parents” and I agree with that, but if the parents are unresponsive to the gospel or instruction then should be just disregard the kids? Maybe we should do something to reach them.

So, if we need to head out to the neighborhood and present the gospel to lost people in a way that they can understand it, then I guess I don’t see anything wrong with that. I have never and would never suggest the gospel be altered to not be offensive to people. The reality is that the gospel is offensive. It’s abrasive, and that will never change ad should be proclaimed.

I said in an earlier post that if we could present the gospel through a puppet show to children why wouldn’t we do it? Every parent in the world is not a Godly man or woman like you are. So, should we just disregard those children who don’t have that?

I guess that’s not found in scripture so we should avoid it. Or maybe we could have the puppets read your exegesis on 1 Corinthians 9, but that probably wouldn’t be scriptural either.

Fill in the blank:

This brings glory to God because ____________________

I see what you’re saying. And many youth workers do think they are doing their part for the glory of God. I don’t doubt their sincerity. They think they are busy about the work of the Kingdom. And I’m sure there are those who are. I guess the question really comes down to: are they truly bringing glory to God and His Son Jesus? If so, it will be in harmony with His word. Unfortunately, in churches across the land, youth ministry is not in harmony with the Word. Much of the focus has shifted from the power of the Gospel alone, to being “relevant” in order to gain their trust to the point that they will listen to the Gospel. And some of those attempts at “relevancy” have gone far away from any semblance of Christianity. Thus, in attempting to attract, entertain, capture their attention, the message of the Cross becomes neutralized. And thus the only God-ordained power to save is vanquished.

Wherefore in words or in deeds, do it all for the glory of God…

It all boils down to that my friends….Do our actions help to advance the Kingdom of God, helps in our testimony/evangelism, and brings glory to the Father and His son Jesus Christ?

If so….then go do some more for God! Even encourage everyone else to do it with you.

but if not…..THEN why do it?

As for your comment on the woman caught in adultery, I will direct you to John MacArthur’s commentary…
“He who is without sin”- This directly refers to Deut. 13:9, 17:7 where the witnesses of a crime are to start the execution. Only those who were not guilty of the same sin could participate’ – J. MacArthur
This is more of a biblical explanation than what you state.

I will ask again, can you show me from Scripture where the office of ‘youth pastor’ is mandated?
Thank you

CJ, may I direct you to an exegesis I did of this very statement. You can read it here. Needless to say, Paul was NOT telling people to act like the base elements of the world in order to make the gospel attractive to the lost.