Grace

If we are truly Christian, that means the power of God is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Do we not see, not even consider, how mingling the Gospel of Christ with a mindset that accepts all beliefs as equally true if it “works for you” is a different Gospel? It seems that some are saying that it can be used like bait to gradually bring someone into true relationship with Jesus Christ – yet, as it is most of us wonder how many in CHURCHES are really saved! Since when are we to softsoap sinners into the kingdom? They’re told they have a built-in compulsion to drink and an allergy to alcohol. If they can have a god of their choosing with the applause of the group, and all gods are acceptable, why would they want to come to Christ when he demands all? It takes a work of God to draw the sinner to a God they don’t seek after. People are claiming this one came to Christ, that one came to Christ through AA. Well, I question that. First, how do THEY know this, especially in days when almost everyone is a “Christian” or becoming one – and what “christ” did they come to? Second, why would somebody who’s been bought with a price for the glory of God be spending their time devoted to helping others work the 12 Steps when the Scripture commands the preaching of the Gospel.. Which by the way is rarely heard in CHURCH anymore, no less AA! Are the steps more powerful than Christ and the power of God to handle sin? Did the Bible need some tweaking by this Bill W. who had a “white light” experience? (Who comes as an angel of light again?)
God, through the power in Christ and the Holy Spirit down through the ages has been sufficient in redeeming us from slavery to sin, yet it is not a story of “working” to stay sober by giving yourself away for the glory of AA! I heard it over and over “I’m so grateful to Bill W. and AA for my very life!”, not to mention pilgrimages to places Bill W. lived, died, etc.. It’s about this: GOD is going to judge sinners and has given us the WAY OUT through His Son and rescued us from His own coming wrath. He has NOT changed his name from Jesus the King of Kings and Lord of Lords to Bill W. The Gospel is NOT in the Big Book or the Steps. Oh, yes, there’s a gospel of false religion and working hard to make things right which is no suprise since Bill W. was such an ambitious business-minded man.

Where are those who see that this is point-blank another gospel (which is really no gospel at all) – a tainted addition to the TRUE gospel where NO ADDITION IS NEEDED. Why all the defending of this movement called AA and it’s 12 Steps – which has obtained endless accolades through books, television, news, and has been held up as some wooden god for drunks (and now for WHATEVER compulsion you’ve got). Why can’t so many so-called believers in Jesus Christ see how the Gospel is being obscured and diminished through this demonically inspired imitation with NO sin, NO judgment, NO hell, NO Savior, NO forgivness, NO Holy Spirit, and NO heaven? Satan comes as an angel of LIGHT so as to deceive and detract from the genuine article. So let’s stand for the simplicity of devotion to Christ and HIS Gospel. Anything less than that is a COUNTERFEIT.
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I just want to say that the Biblical arguments here were so helpful to me, (especially our dear brother John Lanagan) and thanks to all of you who wrote so incredibly well for the Gospel of Jesus Christ – and backing it up with God’s Word. GREAT!! Amen!

Grace

John as “Kyle” at 8:49pm from IP address 24.60.39.58 said:
Lyn,
Do you think that John is not saved or delivered, have you actually been reading this? If anything I would have to question your faith, salvation and deliverance. It’s very clear he is free in Christ, he was just used today to save a soul. Pray no beg for forgiveness, that is a terrible sin against a saint. May God have mercy for your judgment.

Then John as “Kim” at 8:52pm from IP address 24.60.39.58 said:

Lyn not sure how long you’ve been walking with the Lord, but I think you got in over your head on this one, and it got the better of you. Sometimes it’s better to pray before we speak. The power of life and death is in the tongue.

Then John as himself at 8:54pm from IP address 24.60.39.58 said:

And the truth comes out, for all to see your true colors Lyn.
Let the light shine!

Then John as “Kevin” at 8:59 from IP address 24.60.39.58 said:

Lyn you must be the editor?, because it’s seems that comments appear and then disappear. I guess you let John get the better of you? I must say your last comment was over the top.

Then John again as himself at 9:01pm from IP address 24.60.39.58 said:
God sees all ;)

Yes He does, John.

Sincerely,
- The Pilgrim

Lyn

Interesting that you would insert Brennan Manning into your defense. Brennan Manning believes and teaches the heresy known as contemplative mysticism. He believes Christ is found within all of us, and if we but look for the spark of the divine we will find it.

It is always the same. When people come here with no desire for the real truth of Scripture, but to promote their own agenda, before long they get upset and decide one of two options. 1) They leave with little fanfare, or 2) they begin to vehemently attack us thinking they have a right to do so.

If you bother to read this final note, then let me state for the record that you have obviously spent very little time here reading anything other than that which is highly annoying to you. If you were to take the time to read more of what and who we are and the posts that appear at DefCon, you would see that we are only sinners who have been saved by grace through faith alone in the finished work of Calvary.

As for hiding the “truth of AA’s history”, Dick B. dropped in for one purpose. He heard from somebody (maybe you??) about this site and decided to put in his two cents worth by cutting and pasting his thoughts here. His intent was only to defend a religious organization that is seriously flawed and while it may have been based loosely on biblical principles, they certainly do not stand up to the scrutiny of Biblical truth as practiced.

We pray that one day you will find the truth as revealed in Scripture alone. Addicts can only truly ever be set free not through 12 step programs but through the salvation of the soul, and then that precious soul being conformed to the image of the Lord Jesus Christ.

God Bless

John

Dick B., who has done so much through his books to spread the “Christian origin” claims about AA and the 12 Steps, never saw fit to mention this Freemason connection, although he had opportunity in book after book after book.

The origin of AA includes Carl Jung, Swedenborg, Emmet Fox, spiritualism, William James, and much more.

I agree with you that the 12 Step system is a powerful religion. It is just like Freemasonry, which is also a false religion. Anytime an organization seeks to separate the Lord Jesus Christ from its main principles, it further indicates its false teaching.

AA, like Freemasonry, talks a good talk, but that is where it stops. Do both organizations seek to help people? Yes, I am sure that is a stated objective. However, the problem is that you cannot teach a true biblical basis of morals and morality when you do so apart from the God Who gave them.

To quote from the movie, “The Timechanger”, one of the main characters says to the effect, “I would rather say nothing at all and let the boy steal marbles, if I cannot first tell him why stealing is wrong and Who says that stealing is wrong!”

The Bible cuts across all boundaries and the working of the Holy Spirit does not need or depend on AA or any other man-made program which fail to point the way to Christ anyway – as clearly evidenced by the 12 Steps outlined in a comment above by John (AA defender).

The Desert Pastor

Christians who attend AA become tainted, to one degree or another, with the theology of 12 Step spirituality.

It is far past the time to warn about it–the 12 Step system is a powerful religion, and many are the false “jesus” higher powers within its folds.

Are there Bible believeing Christians in AA? Yes, there are. Have they been affected by 12 Step spirituality? Yes, they have.

This is John the AA defender, lol. and Bible believing, Jesus worshiping, child of God.

I agree we all need to examine ourselves daily, as Paul say look at ourselves in sober judgment. Romans 12:3 “Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.”

You seem to come up with ideas, that were not mentioned, I’m certainly never said I wouldn’t want to share with a stranger, have done it many times, gone all the way to Haiti to do it. What I said is it doesn’t produce much fruit (that has been my experience, not theory).

What I have found effective is getting to know someone, showing them the love of Jesus, John 13:34-35 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
So that some trust has been built up, and my words have some substance to them.

Here is some info from a Barna survey:

(AgapePress) – A new survey shows that adults with no connection to the Christian faith have low opinions of evangelicals. The researcher who conducted the study believes that may be one reason why churches are not growing.

The Barna survey asked respondents how they felt about evangelicals, born-again Christians, ministers, and other types of people. According to the survey, evangelicals came in tenth out of eleven, trailing lesbians and lawyers but beating out prostitutes.

George Barna, president of the Barna Research Group, says evangelicals have a lot of work to do to overcome such an image.

“We may not be ‘evil’ people, we may not be ‘bad’ people — we may be completely loving and wonderful. But somehow we are being perceived by non-Christians in America as a group of people who are not particularly loving [and] not particularly generous, kind, or understanding,” Barna says.

“Whether that’s because the media portray evangelicals in a negative light or because we’ve earned that ‘badge of dishonor,’ if you will, we’ve got to figure that out — and then we have to address that.”

Barna says evangelicals have an opportunity to reverse the negative public opinion: through the way they live their lives. “We’re not going to have many opportunities to have meaningful interaction on a spiritual level with people outside the Christian faith until they can look at us and say, ‘You know what? These people live what they talk,’” he says.

The survey also found the more highly educated a person without a Christian connection is, the less likely he or she is to have a positive impression of Christians. The only group that received a favorable response from the non-Christian respondents was military officers.

God Bless,

John
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And what step is this?

None of the steps say that. And neither have I.

I know how the Holy Spirit dwells within a believer (see my comment above).

I came to God through the steps, refute it all you want, your words and beliefs cannot change the truth of what happened to me and countless others.

If you want to play word games that fine, because seeking God out of desperation, is just another way of saying he drew you to Himself.

It’s a lie from hell to tell lost folks that they can find god within themselves. And that is what AA does in that step. The Holy Spirit of God does indeed dwell within the redeemed child of God, but not within anyone else.

Also, nobody can turn to God unless he is drawn by God. at best, that AA step is Arminian – which is and always has been heresy.

It’s the gospel that saves, not our likability or relationships. That is clear from the evangelism examples we have in the Bible, such as Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8), Peter preaching on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2), and Paul open air preaching many, many times. Jesus spoke to many strangers such as the woman at the well (John 4), the rich young ruler (Luke 18), etc.

Romans 1:16 says, “I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes…”

Romans 10:14 says, “How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?”

We all need to examine ourselves to see why we wouldn’t want to share the gospel with a stranger. Maybe it is because we are ashamed of the gospel as Paul states in Romans 1:16. There is no biblical reason to withhold the gospel from a stranger.

Thanks,
Bill

1 Corinthians 6:19 – Our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, which is in us because we are bought with a price. Everyone who has been purchased (redeemed) by the blood of Christ also has the Spirit of God dwelling in him.

And how can we tell:

* He teaches, convicts, and sanctifies sinners (John 16:8-11; 1 Corinthians 6:11; John 3:3-5; Ephesians 2:18; 1 Corinthians 12:13; 1 Peter 1:2).

* He gives Christians joy, comfort, unity, love, etc. (Romans 5:5; 14:17; 15:13; Ephesians 4:3; Acts 9:31; Galatians 5:22-25; 1 Thessalonians 1:6).

* He revealed God’s will to men who then taught this message to others (1 Corinthians 2:10-14; Ephesians 3:3-5; Mark 13:11; John 14:26; 16:13; 2 Peter 1:21).

And the Fruit:

Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Is God within all people? According to the Alcoholics Anonymous Big Book (the AA “bible”):

“Sometimes we had to search fearlessly, but He was there. He was as much a fact as we were. We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis, it is only there that He may be found. It was so with us.” (pg. 55)

Alcoholics Anonymous has done much to spread this heretical view of God. 12 Step spirituality has seeped into seemingly every corner of the culture–there are 12 Step groups for every perceived problem–and this understanding of “god” has tickled the ears of many.

“However, you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.” (Romans 8:9)

If indeed.

If indeed is right John.

I also want to be on the same page in my evangelism. which is why I don’t think talking to a complete stranger about the love of Jesus is ever very fruitful. We need to get to know people, SHOW them we care, so that when we use words to evangelize they won’t fall on deaf ears. This is why AA is so effective for the kingdom. I again state is effective for the kingdom, I’m speaking from experience not wishful thinking.
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You see Bill I don’t love Jesus for what He is going to do for me (that is just a wonderful bonus!), I love Him for what he has already done for me. I’m free to evangelize from a place of gratitude and passion that I want others to have what I have, (a relationship with the living Christ). Not a place of you must or else. Conversion by manipulation has never been very effective to make fruitful saints, maybe why the church is so “dead” today?

I’ve been reading this conversation and trying to keep an open mind. The 12 steps you described seem like they may have been based on the Bible, but it sounds to me like they would lead to idolatry for the vast majority of people.

Phrases like “a Power greater than ourselves,” “the care of God as we understood God,” describe blatant idolatry as far as I’m concerned. I doubt there is any religion on earth that would have a problem with those 12 steps, unless you actually believe that there are some gods that lead only to hell.

Like you said only 9% of Christians have a biblical worldview. How is the remaining population supposed to have any hope of finding Jesus with those 12 steps?

As far as fire and brimstone preaching, I’m not sure what you’re referring to. I agree that it can be taken too far, but no one will seek the Savior unless they realize they deserve hell. The Holy Spirit is there to convict people of sin, righteousness and judgment (John 16:8). I want to be on the same page as the Holy Spirit in my evangelism.

Thanks,
Bill

I can identify with feeling depressed, suicidal and not having any answers or even thinking there were any for me. God in His infinite wisdom and grace placed people in my path, in AA, that told me the truth, yes they preached the gospel. I became involved in a church and couldn’t get enough of His word. Now 7 years later I’m still amazed by His mercy and grace and over whelmed by His love.

I’ve also learned that my relationship does not depend on AA or any particular church. I only mention that because you said you wouldn’t give up Jesus because you were hurt in church, I just hope you don’t confuse your relationship with him with church attendance. The church is His people not any building or organized religion. I’m not saying not to go, we need to fellowship with each other. Or maybe you just mentioned it becasue I’ve said that AA reaches out to those with a bad experience in church, that is almost always as a child hood experience, where actually knowing Jesus had not taken place, but the conception of a mean, judgmental God, that was just waiting to punish was learned.

And yes AA is a ripe mission field, and needs the hands and prayers of the saints, not it’s judging and condemnation. It is sad that because some spread a senseless (Christ less message) in AA, that it is viewed as what it is all about. When an honest look into it’s history and literature, make in easy to see it also was about Jesus.

The church today isn’t doing much better.Research done in 2009 by the Barna Group revealed that only 9% of “born again Christians” have a biblical world view. The church is in serious trouble. And also we are to judge brothers and sisters in Christ, and speak the truth in love, but we are not to judge those outside the church. Sharing the gospel out of love is effective seed planting, fire and brimstone preaching only repels people. It is the Holy Spirit who convicts us of our sins, not well meaning, but off track Christians.

Jude you say you attended AA / NA for quite awhile. Did it have anything to do with you now attending church? In other words were you attending church while you were drinking and drugging? or was it after going to AA / NA, and realizing that the answer was God, and that AA / NA is not a church so you realized your need to go?

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From the fifth chapter of Alcoholics Anonymous

Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.

Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now. If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it- then you are ready to take certain steps.

At some of these we balked. We thought we could find an easier softer way. But we could not. With all the earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.

Remember that we deal with alcohol- cunning, baffling, powerful! Without help it is too much for us. But there is One who has all power- that one is God. May you find Him Now!

Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. We asked His protection and care with complete abandon.

Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol – that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a fearless and thorough moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being, the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people, wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all or affairs.

Many of us exclaimed, “What an order I can’t go through with it.” Do not be discouraged. No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these principles. We are not saints. The point is, that we are willing to grow along spiritual lines. The principles we have set down are guides to progress. We claim spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection.

Our description of the alcoholic, the chapter to the agnostic, and out personal adventures before and after make clear three personal ideas:

* (a) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.
* (b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.
* (c) That God could and would if He were sought.

People are being saved with the 12 steps as tools of evangelism, God is drawing people to Himself through them. I’m not just making an empty claim, it happened to me and many around me, and to have anyone say it’s not so is blasphemous. It doesn’t matter if anyone decides it lines up with their doctrine or not, God IS doing it.

To answer your questions:

Very simple because all 12 steps, lead the way to the ONE.
Let me break down how the steps relate to biblical principals, which is the reason that they work. Please remember I’m using biblical principals, not quoting scripture. I will do that at the end.

The 12 Steps

* Step 1 – We admitted we were powerless over our addiction – that our lives had become unmanageable
-This is admitting you are sinner

* Step 2 – Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity
-This is admitting your need for God

* Step 3 – Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood God
-This is asking Jesus to be your Lord and Savior

* Step 4 – Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves
-This is acknowledging all your sins

* Step 5 – Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs
-This is confessing all your sins

* Step 6 – Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character
-This is acknowledging all your sinful ways, and really thinking what it means to ask Jesus for deliverance.

* Step 7 – Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings
-This is asking God for deliverance from all your sinful ways

* Step 8 – Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all
-This is about making peace with your brother before approaching the throne of God

* Step 9 – Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others
-This also is about making peace with your brother before approaching the throne of God

* Step 10 – Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it
-This is looking at oneself with sober judgment and taking sanctification seriously

* Step 11 – Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood God, praying only for knowledge of God’s will for us and the power to carry that out
-This is developing a prayer life, and keeping the prayers focused on His will not your own, and His grace to live it

* Step 12 – Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other addicts, and to practice these principles in all our affairs
-This is about doing your part of the Great Commission

They work because of the biblical principals behind them, as they are worked the guilt and shame that keeps one thinking they are worthy to even ask God for help falls away, and as one believes they are worthy enough to even ask God for help, He answers.

So it is not AA that does anything, It is Jesus, AA is not capable of freeing anyone, doesn’t claim to be and never has.

So our dependency is on God not “recovery”, God is the only way anyone can “recover”.

STEP ONE – We admitted we were powerless over alcohol — that our lives had become unmanageable.

I know that nothing good lives in me, that is in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. (Romans 7:18)

STEP TWO – Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

For it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose. (Philippians 2:13)

STEP THREE – Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God – this is your spiritual act of worship. (Romans 12:1)

STEP FOUR – MADE A SEARCHING AND FEARLESS MORAL INVENTORY OF OURSELVES.

Let us examine our ways and test them, and let us return to the Lord. (Lamentations 3:40)

STEP FIVE – ADMITTED TO GOD, TO OURSELVES, AND TO ANOTHER HUMAN BEING THE EXACT NATURE OF OUR WRONGS.

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. (James 5:16a)

STEP SIX – WERE ENTIRELY READY TO HAVE GOD REMOVE ALL THESE DEFECTS OF CHARACTER.

Humble yourselves before the Lord, and He will lift you up. (James 4:10)

STEP SEVEN – HUMBLY ASKED HIM TO REMOVE OUR SHORTCOMINGS.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

STEP EIGHT – Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. (Luke 6:31)

STEP NINE – Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. (Matthew 5:23-24)

STEP TEN – Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall. (1 Corinthians 10:12)

STEP ELEVEN – Sought though prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for the knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly. (Colossians 3:16a)

STEP TWELVE – Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. (Galatians 6:1)
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I just wanted to comment again about John’s claims, that I say are false.

First of all some of his history of AA, may or may not be true it depends on the source, they do not all agree. Regardless, the co-founders of AA, as they themsleves said were only members like everybody else, so how can what two members did or did not do 70 years ago, represent all of AA today. Not to mention groups are as different as church and denominations. And what one member may have liked as a book, does not in any way represent AA.

With all that said, the AA that I am involved God is using to bring people into His kingdom. I agree this does not represent all of AA, but it does reach out to many that have had bad experiences with church in the past (mostly in childhood). And is a ripe mission field in desperate need of the prayers of the saints, not the judging and condemning of the saints. This is only making the young stumble.
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It takes some effort not to idolize traditions intended to be a helpful guide on the spiritual journey and not to let them become ends in themselves that kill your friendship with God and give you the appearence of godliness without its power (2 Tim. 3:5). You need to take care that you remain real in your relationship with God, and that God remains your passion, not prayer, the church, the bible, or spiritual exercises.

Learn by praying, by asking Christians, by reading the bible and by doing exercises, but learn the right way. The constructive questions to be asked while reading the bible (or while discussiong with friends) are like the following: “How must this or that be understood in order that it is in agreement with reality as I know it?” and “What hints does this or that give me to allow me to see beyond reality as it seems to be, in areas where I perceive a need to grow?” And the results are very rewarding.

Have you realized the freedom that the apostle Paul is talking about in 1 Cor. 6:12 (and 10:23-24): “Everything is permitted to me, but not everything is beneficial. Everything is permitted to me, but nothing shall enslave me. Everything is permitted to me, but not everything is constructive.” And the Council of the apostles in Jerusalem confirms in Acts 15:28: “It seemed good to the holy spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond [a few things offensive to everyone at that time].” And Paul emphasizes at another place: “Why should my freedom be judged by another’s conscience?” (1 Cor. 10:29)

All that counts is that you learn true communication with God so that you recognize what he wants you to do, and that you get the desire and the inner strength to actually do it. Yes, God will be your judge, but he is a loving judge helping you to grow into a person that will be a joy to yourself, to others, and to God.

It also requires care not to force onto others spiritual exercises that you found rewarding for yourself. Give advice as you would have liked to get it (Matth. 7:12), but also give the same freedom that Christ has given you (Luke 6:38). “Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.” (Rom. 14:4)

Then the Christians you are responsible for will grow into healthy children of God, living letters from Christ, walking sermons of His love.

I advise you to defend your stance using scripture, nothing else.

The fact is, Emmet Fox, Swedenborg (called the father of modern spiritualsm), and many other anti-Biblical influences are part of the AA mix.

“A little leaven…”

What you, and many others in this all-gods religion are upset about, is that Christians are being informed of the Truth.

In fact, one of the teaching texts early AA used was ‘Sermon on the Mount,’ a heretical interpretation of the Beatitudes by Emmet Fox. Fox, incidentally, is often called a “godfather” of AA.

AA co-founder Dr. Bob handed out this heresy to hurting alcoholics.

What was in this book?

pg. 4-5: “The ‘Plan of Salvation’ which figured so prominently in the evangelical sermons and divinity books of a past generation is as completely unknown to the Bible as the Koran. There never was any such an arrangement in the universe, and the Bible does not teach it at all. ”

pg. 3: “The plain fact is that Jesus taught no theology whatever.”

pg. 3: ”There is absolutely no system of theology found in the Bible; it simply is not there.”

pg.13: Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden “was never intended by its author to be taken as history, but literal-minded people did so take it, with all sorts of absurd consequences.”

Emmet Fox is recognized as a “godfather” of AA. What also needs to be recognized is that Dr. Bob Smith’s love of this book means he was not a Bible believing Christian. The origin of AA is as Christian as its co-founders–which is to say, not at all.

I never said anything other than Jesus is the only one, thought I made that very clear. And not sure what meetings, you went to, but glad I don’t go to those. AA does not talk about man’s effort (I know of no one in AA claiming to have cured themself) , it’s very clear that only God can help, that is the premise of the 12 steps. As far as saying “I’m an alcoholic, around here we say “recovered alcoholic” (which is in the literature). And Jesus is mentioned in the original manuscript (readily available). Along with the wording of our heavenly father, our creator…in today’s version, it’s quite obvious who they are talking about, in my opinion it’s arrogant to think otherwise. The only book used in early AA was the Bible, this is a well documented fact, the Bible Dr. Bob used is still on the podium in the first Akron group.

I do hope one day you come to accept all of God’s grace, because Jesus already paid for His wrath. The work of the cross is complete, it is not the cross PLUS anything, so trying to live by a performance based religion is a very painful thing, I’ve been delivered from that as well as my addictions. Sanctification and learning to walk in His ways (not living in bondage of sin) by Gods’ grace and the power of the Holy Spirit, and trying to adhere to the law, by your own strength are very different.

As far as loving people into the Kingdom, we most certainly do, if your sharing the gospel for any reason other than out of love, you will just sound like a clanging cymbol. I’m very aware that we are saved by God’s grace, thanks.

Just curious, how fruitful has your “Fire and Brimstone” approach been so far? And one more thing, always trying to find faults in others is the best way to overlook your own.

Thank you, DEFCON.

It has been fierce warfare.

John