I own so many versions now, and use the NASB (or u), the KJV, NKJV, ASV and ESV most. Sometimes I use a facsimile of the KJV-1611. So all my favorites are in the KJ family. Just because the KJV was translated directly from Moses’ tablets in 1611 – or whatever the Onliests claim – that only covers at most, the Pentateuch (okay, perhaps that was a bit flippant).

The only version that really matters is the one written in your heart and that you attempt to live in your life; if a KJVOist is obnoxious or rude about his belief (if you tell me I’m going to hell for using any other then I consider you both those things), then perhaps he needs to read it more often with some intent other than for comparison purposes, is my take on the issue.

I also do quote from the ESV, the NKJV, and the NASB in so far as they are true to the Greek and Hebrew, and since most just aren’t comfortable with the King’s English. But then, the Hebrew and Greek should have supremacy over EVERY English translation (even the KJV). Which brings us to the more critical question: which Hebrew and Greek should we refer to? I prefer the Masoretic text over the Septuagint (online arguments to the contrary exemplify what I mentioned earlier about there being a lot of misinformation on the subject). And I prefer the Byzantine text (in the majority agreement), certainly over the Alexandrian or variants combining both.

Ultimately, you must study this all out for yourself, r&r. In the process keep in mind that behind every “scholar” is a revealing story as to where they stand with Christ (and without Christ, they have neither truth, nor do they have the minimum required to discern His word). And concerning which is the most accurate Scripture we have today, all factors must be taken into consideration: not just the empirical, but the testimony of the true followers of Christ.

Be blessed.

Thank you,

“All critical editions published after Westcott and Hort were closest to their text with only one exception (von Soden).”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Testament_in_the_Original_Greek#Other_editions_of_Greek_New_Testament

“The text of Nestle-Aland, and the texts of Bover and Merk, differs very little from the text of the Westcott-Hort.”

The only major Bible to be published since 1881 that uses the Textus Receptus as it’s basis is the NKJV. All others use Westcott and Horts manuscript or two others that are very similar to theirs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bible_verses_not_included_in_modern_translations

Further reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_Bible_translations#Complete_Bibles

**********
The NKJV is close to the original Hebrew and Greek although there are some errors.

For serious study, a KJV, a NKJV and a concordance is very good.

Another nice version is the King James Easy Reading Edition which is basically a KJV with all old English words updated to modern English. There were no other changes.

http://www.swordbible.org/

E-Sword is a free, downloadable KJV + Strongs Concordance with optional downloads available so you can study various translations side by side.

http://www.e-sword.net/

Really long story, but essentially what W & H did between 1850 and 1881 is bring back into a position of “credibility” or “respectability” what had long been discarded by the church at large, i.e.: texts containing glaringly Arian influences (Codices B, Aleph, and their family). They also brought in the “oldest is best” argument (an entirely naive and faulted premise) which is still influential among textual critics today. Indeed their very methods of textual criticism place the Holy Scriptures on par with any other literary work, rejecting the testimony of the Church of Jesus Christ throughout the ages (and the Holy Spirit’s divinely gifted discernment as to authenticity) removing God from the equation altogether and placing Biblical analysis strictly in the hands of men (specifically men of their ilk) and their analytical inventions. Their eclectic Greek (relying heavily on Arian texts) has been a major influence in the Nestle-Aland text which is still in use today. Their influence is still very active in modern translation procedures today.

There’s a whole lot more to the story, and there’s a lot more to this than meets the eye, which is why Christians really need to study this, and not just naively think that all Bible translations (or all MSS, for that matter) are equally valid and accurate.

I heard about the controversy with Alberto Rivera and looked into both sides. Still not convinced either way on that specific issue.

I never really studied Chicks errors but I recall reading “This was your Life” over 30 years ago. That was probably the first time I heard about hell fire from anyone and I had been to a so-called Bible believing church without hearing the gospel as far as I can recall.

I would have to say that the Lord used it in spite of Chick.

As far as Arminianism vs Calvanism goes I’m still not convinced either are 100% right.

I know the Word has all the answers though if we take the time to search.

Actually, Jack Chick is a militant KJO advocate. He does NOT state the facts except in a light that he is comfortable with, and his ministry has refused to be disassociated with liars and false teachers such as Alberto Rivera (so-called Roman Catholic priest). All would be well warned against the use or endorsement of Chick Publications. Chick is also very much antagonistic against the doctrines of grace, and is extreme in his Arminian viewpoint to include the use of altar calls and emotional coercion to bring about a “profession of faith.” Chick’s study is greatly flawed in a number of areas and is biased based on his own personal interpretations.

The Translation of Easter

I found a printed version also: http://www.chick.com/reading/books/158/158_02.asp

He’s KJO and I seriously disagree with his thinking on “christ”-mass starting at 47:50. You would think as much study as he put into this, he would have done the same with “christ”-mass.

This guy does a poor job defending Westcott and Hort:

http://hipandthigh.blogspot.com/2006/05/were-b.html

He even notes that Westcott and Hort were members of secret societies but excuses their membership.

I would be remiss to not include C.I. Scofield and his KJV “reference bible” in this discussion.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/10375287/Scofield

His background is equally as troubling as Westcott and Horts. Ties to Zionists, masons, illuminists, Westcott and Hort (not surprising) and even the vatican.

I concluded long ago that just as KJO is error, so are most modern translations of the Bible after 1881. Thats why I always refer to the original Hebrew and Greek with hard sayings or hard to understand verses.

——————————————————————————————————–

A shocking tidbit I heard a while ago (can’t remember exactly where) inferred that non-English speaking people need to learn English and read the KJV.

Extreme KJO’s reject not only other English translations but all foreign language versions as well.

As noted above, they believe the KJV is more accurate than the original Hebrew and Greek.

Apology accepted and I TOTALLY understand how you could reach that conclusion with my posting of that link.

I try to be careful with references but sometimes its hard to find sites that are 100% free of error that have interesting historical information on people like Westcott and Hort and King James.

DavidW,

Yes, there is much disinfo out there.

But I do accept the history I’ve read about Westcott and Hort being Jesuits and occultists along with visible proof such as photocopies of the 1611 KJV being filled with masonic imagry.

It’s also very strange that Charles Tase Russel would choose Westcott and Horts manuscript over ones that existed for well over a thousand years dont you think?

Also, the masons and rosicrucians were without doubt responsible for changing Passover to Easter in Acts 12 of the KJV as they have no problem with occult celebrations such as Easter.

No, I’m not KJO, I just used that link to show Westcott and Hort were Jesuit occultists and that their “translation” was used for most English versions of the Bible after is was released.

And yes, jesus-is-savior.com has a LOT of crazy stuff on it. The expose` on Westcott and Hort is accurate though. Thats not the only place that has info on them but was the quickest to find. Test all things.

I’m a him by the way.

And yes, the Acts 12 reference to “Easter” is a glaring twist-translation of the following:

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/pascha.html

An interesting thing to note about the KJV is that King James was a “free”mason and the KJV is literally filled with references to masonry. The chapter/verse numbering scheme is also used in their lodges for their nefarious numerology purposes.

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/k1002.cfm

So again, I’m not KJO… although I do tend to favor it over modern translations because it is in most instances more accurate to the original Greek.

PS: I also don’t take everything cuttingedge.org says as gospel although they do have some interesting information not found anywhere else.

Test all things by the Word of God.
David T,

No, I’m not KJO, I just used that link to show Westcott and Hort were Jesuit occultists and that their “translation” was used for most English versions of the Bible after is was released.

And yes, jesus-is-savior.com has a LOT of crazy stuff on it. The expose` on Westcott and Hort is accurate though. Thats not the only place that has info on them but was the quickest to find. Test all things.

I’m a him by the way.

And yes, the Acts 12 reference to “Easter” is a glaring twist-translation of the following:

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/pascha.html

An interesting thing to note about the KJV is that King James was a “free”mason and the KJV is literally filled with references to masonry. The chapter/verse numbering scheme is also used in their lodges for their nefarious numerology purposes.

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/k1002.cfm

So again, I’m not KJO… although I do tend to favor it over modern translations because it is in most instances more accurate to the original Greek.

PS: I also don’t take everything cuttingedge.org says as gospel although they do have some interesting information not found anywhere else.

Test all things by the Word of God.

Thats the thing though, most people just read their Bibles and fail to study the meaning of the words.

The top level meaning of the word heretic as you noted is “fitted or able to take or choose a thing”

So heresy, in its “purest” form, is “choosing” to follow a false doctrine of man over the whole council of God.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/hairetikos.html

As Jesus so pointedly noted:

Mark 7:9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.

When people choose traditional false doctrine, the inevitable conclusion of the matter is to reject Gods commandments.

Having a concordance is the number two most important book to aquire after a reliable translation of the Word.

Bible Study Tools has a free Strongs online for those who can’t afford the printed version.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/concordances/strongs-exhaustive-concordance/
_____________________________________________________________________
David T,

No, I’m not KJO, I just used that link to show Westcott and Hort were Jesuit occultists and that their “translation” was used for most English versions of the Bible after is was released.

And yes, jesus-is-savior.com has a LOT of crazy stuff on it. The expose` on Westcott and Hort is accurate though. Thats not the only place that has info on them but was the quickest to find. Test all things.

I’m a him by the way.

And yes, the Acts 12 reference to “Easter” is a glaring twist-translation of the following:

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/pascha.html

An interesting thing to note about the KJV is that King James was a “free”mason and the KJV is literally filled with references to masonry. The chapter/verse numbering scheme is also used in their lodges for their nefarious numerology purposes.

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/k1002.cfm

So again, I’m not KJO… although I do tend to favor it over modern translations because it is in most instances more accurate to the original Greek.

PS: I also don’t take everything cuttingedge.org says as gospel although they do have some interesting information not found anywhere else.

Test all things by the Word of God.

I like to use the KJV but I also use the NKJV, ESV, NASB, The Geneva Bible, and The Wycliffe New Testament. (Guess that makes me a weaker brother too). Besides, the KJV is not without its errors too.

Lets look at Jude 25:

Jude 25 (KJV): To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Jude 25 (ESV): to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

Jude 25 (NASB): to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

Someone care to tell me what’s missing? (Kudos to those who can get it).

How about here in the 12th chapter of Acts?

Acts 12:3-4 (ESV): and when he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded to arrest Peter also. This was during the days of Unleavened Bread. And when he had seized him, he put him in prison, delivering him over to four squads of soldiers to guard him, intending after the Passover to bring him out to the people.

Acts 12:3-4 (NASB): When he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded to arrest Peter also Now it was during the days of Unleavened Bread. When he had seized him, he put him in prison, delivering him to four squads of soldiers to guard him, intending after the Passover to bring him out before the people.

Acts 12:3-4 (KJV): And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.) And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

Anyone care to point out the difference between the ESV/NASB with the KJV? I’ll give you a hint, it has to do with a holiday.

There is much more that I could point out. I am not anti-KJV. I like to use it as a translation. I just find the KJV-only position to be unfruitful and very much full of heresy. To say that you are not KJVO and then use the KJVO position on translations is beyond crazy.

Rom. 12.2 “And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”
The word transformed means transfigure as Christ was transfigured in Matt. 17.2 and Mark 9.2. It means a metamorphosis. The word renewing actually means to renovate. Renewing your mind or renovating it? Which holds a stronger meaning to you?

We need to do three things as far as I am concerned: Have a reliable version to study (I use the KJV, but am open to reading others as long as they can be called ‘reliable’), use a Concordance to dig out the original meaning and most importantly submit to the Holy Spirit to guide and teach you how you ought to be taught (1 Cor. 2.13).

God is well able to preserve His truth even if His Bible is polluted. If all the versions of the earth are ‘reworked’ and humanistic dogma strangles out any truth from its pages, God will still uphold His Holy Word in His way for His glory.

A Lot of info here and I think we as Christians need to learn to dig and pray for God’s truth. Otherwise, ay sort of half truth can be sold to us.

Christians need to know who is behind the modern “translations” of the scriptures.

Westcott and Hort were Jesuits who were also occultist friends of Helena Blavatsky (The founder of Theosophy).

It is also VERY important to know that Westcott and Hort’s translation was the basis for the watchtower’s “new world translation”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Testament_in_the_Original_Greek#Other_editions_of_Greek_New_Testament

The following link contains some KJO material but also important background on these two vile Jesuits.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/heretics_behind_modern_versions.htm

While I do believe that one could be saved by reading a mis-translation, I also believe that ones walk and growth subsequent to salvation could be seriously hobbled by the same mis-translation.

But if you want to remain a “weaker brethren”, have at it.

PS: I read the NKJV which is attacked by KJO fanatics just as the other modern english translations. Nevertheless, The NKJV does have some SERIOUS translation issues. For example:

KJV Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject ;

NKJV Titus 3:10 10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition,

While the KJV instructs believer to reject heretics, the NKJV could be construed to reject those who are exposing heresy.

Do heretics use the above verse to cast out “divisive” “troublemakers” that would dare to expose the unfruitful works of darkness in their midst?

Absolutely.

Here are some other translations that twist Titus 3:10:

ASV Titus 3:10 A factious man after a first and second admonition refuse;

NIV Titus 3:10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.

GNT Titus 3:10 10 Give at least two warnings to those who cause divisions, and then have nothing more to do with them.

NAS Titus 3:10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning,

NCV Titus 3:10 10 After a first and second warning, avoid someone who causes arguments.

RSV Titus 3:10 As for a man who is factious, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him,

NRSV Titus 3:10 10 After a first and second admonition, have nothing more to do with anyone who causes divisions,

YLT Titus 3:10 A sectarian man, after a first and second admonition be rejecting,

TNIV Titus 3:10 Warn divisive people once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them.

I think that the above give a good example but there are more.

In Him,
CD

Correction is fine, just don’t think of yourself as the “example” to live by. Because you’re not.

Is that the way you think I view myself?

This is me:

I am the dog who returns to its vomit, and the sow that is washed goes back to its wallowing in the mud… but for the grace of God.

I am a filthy and unclean thing, that has been washed by the blood of the Lamb… My flesh, however is still wretched.

I am wicked by nature, make no mistake.

Trust me, my in-laws are die-hard old school Baptists. They are so uptight you could use their butts to make diamonds out of coal. I love em, but all they can do is point out flaws in others while thinking Jesus must have been a suit-and-tie wearing Baptist…just like THEM.

I think you’d like them.

Anyways, to them my language is fine. And if you’re more uptight than them, well…what can I do? It is what it is.

And I was kidding about bringing out more of my flaws. I sat for a while and honestly couldn’t come up with any. My wife, kids ( even my MOM!!! ) say I’m as good as it gets! And who am I to disagree? Take your word over MOM’s??…pfft!! As if!

In short, I’ve learned to be cautious about pointing out other peoples “specks in the eye”. Correction is fine, just don’t think of yourself as the “example” to live by. Because you’re not.

And don’t give me the cop-out “be like Jesus” line…as if to imply you’re more on track than me, because you’re not.

Final word is yours. The horse isn’t getting up no matter how hard we beat it. It’s been a slice, but I have my own site to take care of…

But to flog someone for using such insignificant words…well, all I can say is get off your pious soapbox.

Surely you are above correction.

Are we done with this silly topic yet?

Do you consider biblical correction as stipulated in the Bible “silly”?

I mean, I can bring out a bunch of other character traits of mine you’re sure to dislike as well if that’s what we want to discuss.

Ah, yes, the victim.

In Christ,
- Jeff H