The Pilgrim
Coram Deo
Bill
unworthy1
brother Michael
In this audio debate James White takes on Gail Riplinger on the topic of King James Onlyism. This classic debate is under an hour long and I highly recommend it to those struggling with the opinion of whether or not any other English translation of the Bible can be trusted.
James White also exposes the errors in Riplinger’s book New Age Bible Versions in which she attempts to push the KJV as the only acceptable English translation of the Bible by using some shady means.
See also: Bible Translation Comparison Chart
Listened to the audio.
For the first 7 years I was a Christian, I used the King James. For the last 20 years I have used the New King James.
I haven’t suffered from the switch.
My question is, if you don’t use the King James, will you go to hell because of it?
I’ve yet to have that question answered.
No, you won’t, doreen. One is not saved or damned based on which Bible translation one uses. We are saved by Christ and Christ ALONE. My personal suggestion (& I don’t mean to come across as condescending) is that you read John 3:3-8,16-18 & 1st Thessalonians 5:9. I mean, those are just a few verses which deal with Salvation through Christ ALONE.
It’s obvious that a Bible translation isn’t the way to salvation.
But the way the King James Onlyists go on, you’d think it was.
I’ve been fond of KJV for years but I’ve been shocked and amused at various arguments from rabid KJV fanatics about why it alone is God’s Word and all other translations are the work of the devil.
I’ve recently moved over to ESV, recognizing that it is not perfect, either. But the Word of God, rightly translated, is able to save, by His Spirit. I do believe this leaves “The Message” outside the conversation.
I read her book “New Age Versions of the Bible” and while I am not a KJV only fanatic, she had some good points about some of the translations. I would hold to a broader view than her about which translations are “safe” but nonetheless it was an interesting read.
People are dying and going to hell, and what are we doing? Arguing over bible translations! How the Lord must be grieved over his ‘church’, how He must be angered over time wasted on debating the KJV against all others; time that could be spent giving the good news to lost sinners, or time that could be spent in prayer for family, friends, this nation. Some have made an idol out of the KJV, which is sin.
God gives discernment to His people, those who belong to Him will be given His wisdom by His Spirit. I personally prefer the NKJV, does that mean I am destined for hell? Hardly!! I am saved by His grace, cleansed by the blood of Christ and kept by the power of God, sealed with His Spirit until the day of redemption…none of which is based on a translation of the bible I read.
May we all learn to be good stewards of time, for it is short, precious, and should not be wasted arguing amongst ourselves.
Eh, lyn… I’m not sure where (at whom) your anger is directed.
I concur that some people can become highly ‘gnat-straining’ when it comes to which translation they love. You are also correct in saying that Christians have considerable flexibility when it comes to choosing whether they prefer a paraphrase versus a word-for-word… or even learning Greek and Hebrew and reading the text directly.
That being said, there are some just plain awful paraphrase ‘Bibles’ out there (the Message screams to mind).
There are also many terrible ‘target’ ‘Bibles’ on the market as well. Some target teens (they read like a hybrid between ‘Oprahnity’ and a sex-laden ‘romance’ novel)… some target homosexuals, some target feminists… some simply re-write Scripture accounts completely, and then throw in new ‘character’ names (such as the ‘Good as New Bible’, with Peter re-named ‘Rocky’) to make the offense complete.
Now, I would consider the purpose of having Christians debate and discuss Bible versions as follows:
1) It is often a good idea to have several translations available at one time (like a parallel Bible), so that the reader can, perhaps, re-capture some of the richness of the Hebrew or Greek that is lost when translating Scripture into a language as shallow as English. This reduces the risk of choosing the WRONG translation of a particular word, if the reader uses a translation dictionary.
2) It seems like a good idea for Christians to review new Bible versions as they become available, to determine their merit… and to share that information amongst believers.
3) New Christians can benefit greatly from such ‘reviews’ when seeking a Bible version for themselves.
4) Last but not least, it is important to show that not only are the pushers of bad paraphrase ‘Bible’ versions in error, but so are those in the militant KJV-only camp.
My opinion (which is all I have) is that these reasons alone are enough to merit keeping the discussions (and debates) alive.
I consider the discussions concerning Bible versions akin to ensuring each soldier has the right fit of armor… It is part of equipping the saints for battle.
My $0.02,
- Jeff H
Hey, if the KJV was good enough for the apostle Paul, then it’s good enough for us!
[/sarcasm]
Silly KJV onlyinists……
On the street I come across them a little. They loved to evangelize for the KJV. And often speak much more of that Bible than they do the LORD.
I know two men – who I do not doubt are born again but they are really caught up in that silly notion that it is inerrant. When you show them translational errors all you hear is “refined seven times”. :)
I use the ESV for both reading and teaching.
Jeff H. , My anger is directed at the KJV only types. This should never have to even be debated. I don’t mean to sound too harsh, but I have read across the blogosphere those who insist the KJV is the only true ‘version’ of God’s word. They make an idol out of their translation and go to great lengths to defend their view. Time then must be taken by men such as Dr. White to set straight these fanatics.
Hi lyn,
Ah! O.K. got it.
I misunderstood you to mean that thorough discussions concerning Bible versions were without merit.
Thank you for clearing that up… I’m a little slow sometimes.
:)
I agree that the militant KJV-onlyists (to the wholesale exclusion of other versions) are in error.
In fact, the 1611 AV is barely readable at all!
- Jeff H
Ah, yes, the Riplinger makes an appearance here. This is the same person whose scholarly credentials comes from two degrees in Home Economics and an honorary doctorate from Hyles-Anderson College (a hyper-fundamentalist super-legalistic college in northern Indiana). Also, the same person who stated that she wrote the book with her name as “G.A. Riplinger” because “it stands for “God And Riplinger!”
Here is the link for an interesting article by James White for more information on this woman who has erred grossly by building huge straw-men in order to try and prove a point. Hey, at least it gained her some kudos amongst the hyper-fundy crowd.
____________________________________________________________________________
Fourpointer,
And if there is ANY doubt about why Christians should use ONLY the KJV, then they should remember the foul-mouthed preacher from Florida who insists that if the KJV is compared to the original manuscripts, then the final say must be found in the KJV and NOT the originals. The man in question is none other than Peter Ruckmann.
Dr. White makes a VERY legitimate point which I agree with 100%: “The KJV Only controversy is, in reality, a non-issue when compared with the serious challenges that face the Christian Church today.”
King James Version onlyism is CLEARLY legalism, because it adds on to the fact that we’re justified by grace through faith alone. Those who are KJV onlyists may as well say, “we’re justified by grace through faith alone, PLUS AND PROVIDED that you use the KJV.”
I only use and teach from the KJV, but I hate being called a KJVOnlyite, a Riplingerite, or a Druckmanite, or any other -ite I can think of. I don’t agree with their positions, but I simply believe, after MUCH study, that it’s the best translation for English-speaking people.
(And, no, I’m not one of those people who say, “If it was good enough for Paul and the Apostles, it’s good enough for me.”)
I suppose there must be quite a few people out there who love their KJV more than the Lord, but I happen to have encountered more people who will call you all sorts of bad names if you gently try to pry away their camo-colored, mini-sized NIV “study” Bible, and calmly explain what “thee” and “thy” mean.
DP,
I had heard about Ruckman but never knew him by name. One of my pastors had told me about a guy that interprets the Greek according to the KJV. Must be him.
Ministry Addict,
I do not think there is anything wrong with holding to a position that states “I believe it is the best translation for English-speaking people.” This is a different set of people normally than those who say that the “KJV is the ONLY translation for English-speaking people.” The issue is with those who normally from a large lack of scholarly work and an equally large degree of ignorance speak forth from the latter before wisely using the former!
Also, I believe that to hold to such position as you do would require that we define WHICH English-speaking people. In some places around the world, the translation work of the missionary might be superior to that of the KJV in places where “English” is spoken such as in Africa.
************************
For more on Peter Ruckman, this link on Wikipedia is a good start if you have plenty of time to waste.
If you listen to Ms Riplinger she resorts to ad-hominem attacks in the debates, and her books she uses numerology to prove the KJV is the only good Bible translation.
James White’s book “The King James only controversy” explanes most away the KJV’s arguments.
Doctrines like : the deity of Christ , Justification are the ones to stand and fight for.
The requirement to become Christian does not rest on learning a 1600′s english dialect. So we must never put that burden on someone.
A good MODERN translation will certainly bring more people to Christ than having them lost in ancient dialect confusion.
And really…if you want to get really down to it, learn hebrew, aramaic and greek. But to claim ENGLISH is superior or on par is simply absurd.
http://dysfunctionalparrot.wordpress.com/2009/09/28/king-james-only/
DysfunctionalParrot,
If you are going to claim:
on your blog, may I respectfully suggest that you might want to clean up your language a little.
Stuff like:
…and even:
…are not really appropriate ways to express yourself as a Christian. Remember, the Bible says that you are an ambassador for Christ.
One can be witty, even sarcastic, but we are admonished in Scripture to not be ‘potty-mouths’.
In Jesus,
- Jeff H
Thanks for the tip. And my language is perfectly fine, thank you.
When nobody is watching I’ll bet you let a few even better ones fly!
Anyways, EXCUSE ME for stopping by. Yeesh.
DysfunctionalParrot,
You’re welcome.
You really think so? Is your speech God-honoring? Remember, you claimed to be a Christian on your blog site. Coarse speech is prohibited in Scripture.
29 “Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.” (Ephesians 4:29)
9 “With it [our tongues] we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness of God.” (James 3:9)
God calls Christians to be set apart from the world in all areas, including language.
Before I was saved: ABSOLUTELY!
Now that I’m saved, I look back at my speech and I wince!!!
It’s o.k. to let grievous sin convict you… It leads to repentance.
Are you above correction?
My fellow Christians have a duty to rebuke me, hold me accountable, and correct me… They are doing so out of LOVE for me AND out of obedience to our Savior.
We hold each other accountable.
Who is ‘Yeesh’? Are you making a substitute for the Name of our Savior, in order to use His Name as a swear word?
Did you know that using the Name of the Lord that way is called blasphemy? God forbids doing so in the 10 Commandments.
See how easy the habit becomes?
And if soap helps, use it.
In Christ,
- Jeff H
Sooo…what you’re trying to say is you love my site? :)
Wow, you must be a hoot to have around!
Hey DysfunctionalParrot,
BTW what version of the Bible do you use?
- Jeff H
Ah! A RELEVANT question that does not critique my moral character!
Currently, I am enjoying my newly acquired ESV, although I enjoy the NIV, NASB, and NKJV. The New Living has good flow for the Psalms, but is hardly worthwhile otherwise. I am also currently learning Hebrew.
The King James might as well be written in Chinese as far as I can use it. I never grew up learning good-ol-baptist “Christianese” and feel no need to waste time doing so.
Strangely, DP, I once was scolded by a fellow Christian for using the word, “piss.” He must have thought it unfitting of a believer. Little did he know, I picked up that word from a KING JAMES BIBLE. Yes, I actually got into the habit of using a bad word by reading the Bible.
Even so, I’ve made an attempt at getting that word out of my vocabulary…and I switched translations. I, personally, have learned not to place too much concern on whether people use course language, but as for myself, I would love to be able to say that I would put aside my own course language if it offends a brother.
I would love to say it, but I haven’t been too successful at it.
M. Patterson: I hear ya! But I would argue that “freaking” and “damned” are pretty light-weight contenders!
Having grown up in a rural setting where boots are commonly called s@#!kickers, I fail to see why anyone gets all offended by such insignificant language.
Guess it depends on your social upbringing. I was raised by wolves.
M Patterson
Could you please tell me where that word is in the King James Bible. We are representatives of Jesus Christ and as such do wholesome words come out of our mouth, is our behavior above reproach? Even little children know what a bad word is.
Dysfunctional Parrot, what makes you think Jeff H must let a few good ones fly when no-one is around. Is that because you do and you think all Christians must do this also. Our Heavenly Father is always around and watching and listening, and He always knows what is going on. We are never alone to let bad language fly. Beside that would be hypocrisy
Everyone’s a hypocrite. It’s part of being human. I’ve just been around long enough to see that those who cry the loudest are often those who can’t hold up to their own standard. I am merely accusing Jeff of being human. Throw yourself in there too! I could use the company!
Anyways…we WERE trying to discuss something relevant ( Bible translations ). Parrot is not pleased!
BTW: 2 Kings 18:27 will be what you’re looking for. No mistaking what the verse says that’s for sure!
DysfunctionalParrot,
Actually, the standard is JESUS.
And, no, I cannot ‘hold up to’ His standard. It is perfection.
The Greek word hamartano literally means, “to miss the mark.”
I “miss the mark.”
That being said, I also do not try to see ‘how close to the mark’ I can get without crossing the line on the sin side. Why not just strive for holiness, DysfunctionalParrot, and accept (receive) godly correction?
Yup. I’ve come across that passage myself in the KJV when I read that version… It’s actually there a few times.
It used to be an appropriate and acceptable way to refer to male offspring.
Now… not so much.
Would YOU refer to your son that way?
…when talking to your wife?
…when talking to your other children?
…when talking to your mother?
…when talking to your your son’s teacher (maybe even in his Kindergarten class)?
…when talking to your Pastor?
…when talking to God?
In Christ,
- Jeff
p.s. I like the ESV Bible version as well.
:)
Doesn’t bother me at all. Guess I just came from a different wolf pack.
Like I said, we’re not talking about F-bombs here. But to flog someone for using such insignificant words…well, all I can say is get off your pious soapbox.
Are we done with this silly topic yet? I mean, I can bring out a bunch of other character traits of mine you’re sure to dislike as well if that’s what we want to discuss.
Surely you are above correction.
Do you consider biblical correction as stipulated in the Bible “silly”?
Ah, yes, the victim.
In Christ,
- Jeff H
I’m not above biblical correction. I’m above YOUR perception of proper Christian living. I see it different than you, and do not share YOUR convictions.
Trust me, my in-laws are die-hard old school Baptists. They are so uptight you could use their butts to make diamonds out of coal. I love em, but all they can do is point out flaws in others while thinking Jesus must have been a suit-and-tie wearing Baptist…just like THEM.
I think you’d like them.
Anyways, to them my language is fine. And if you’re more uptight than them, well…what can I do? It is what it is.
And I was kidding about bringing out more of my flaws. I sat for a while and honestly couldn’t come up with any. My wife, kids ( even my MOM!!! ) say I’m as good as it gets! And who am I to disagree? Take your word over MOM’s??…pfft!! As if!
In short, I’ve learned to be cautious about pointing out other peoples “specks in the eye”. Correction is fine, just don’t think of yourself as the “example” to live by. Because you’re not.
And don’t give me the cop-out “be like Jesus” line…as if to imply you’re more on track than me, because you’re not.
Final word is yours. The horse isn’t getting up no matter how hard we beat it. It’s been a slice, but I have my own site to take care of…
Is that the way you think I view myself?
This is me:
I am the dog who returns to its vomit, and the sow that is washed goes back to its wallowing in the mud… but for the grace of God.
I am a filthy and unclean thing, that has been washed by the blood of the Lamb… My flesh, however is still wretched.
I am wicked by nature, make no mistake.