43 Comments

How Important is 1914 to Jehovah’s Witnesses?

Here is a list of good reasons why the real date should be 586/587 B.C.  Thanks to CD for the links.

43 comments on “How Important is 1914 to Jehovah’s Witnesses?

  1. An excellent example of one of the basic differences between true Christianity and false. True Christianity encourages reason, logic, thinking for yourself, examination of the evidence. False “Christianity” discourages independent thought, and encourages blind acceptance and surrender of the mind and will to the leadership, pastor, or organizational pronouncements. True Christianity tests all things. False “Christianity” is afraid or unwilling to truly test and compare their beliefs and practices according to God’s revealed truth.

  2. I attempted to hand a Gospel of John to a waiter at a pizza joint a few months back. He refused it, saying he was a JW and not permitted to read unapproved documents.

    Cult alert. Even if one knows nothing else about them, this one aspect marks them as a cult. Their denial of the biblical Christ further marks them as synagogue of Satan.

  3. These cults are almost always legalistic.

    What I do is pour the law on them. And keep pouring it.

    ‘Are you sure you’re doing enough?’ Are you living on a thin margin of income and giving the rest to the poor?’

    ‘Are you regularly visiting the sick and elderly?’

    ‘Are you visiting the prisoners in the jails?’

    Are you , are you, are you.

    Are you sure???

    This puts the lie to their pietistic behavior, and will hopefully plow the ground for the pure sweet sound of the gospel.

  4. First, stop with your lies.

    Second, if you actually understood the Bible and this particular prophesy, you will see that even if Jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 then Jesus would still be enthroned in the heavens in 1914. Either way one takes with this, it still points to 1914. That is because it is solid.

    Your stumbling block is that you are so intent on criticizing the Watchtower that you ignore the truth behind the beliefs.

    Manfred, JWs do not deny the Biblical Christ.

    JWs acknowledge him as the Bible directs. As John 3:16 says to, as the son of God.

  5. Hi Steve,

    I genuinely want to hear your line of reasoning on how Jesus was enthroned in 1914, regardless of when Jerusalem was destroyed. My understanding, from “What the Bible Really Teaches” is that there are 2520 years between the destruction of Jerusalem and when Jesus was enthroned in heaven.

    Of course I would say there are many problems even with the interpretation of the prophecy, but I’d love to hear why you say it doesn’t matter when Jerusalem was destroyed.

    Thanks,
    Bill

    P.S. On our previous subject, don’t forget that everyone who believe Jesus is the Christ is born of God or born again (1 John 5:1).

  6. Steve, what “lies” are you referencing?

    Why do you believe that 1914 is the time that Christ is now ruling in Heaven? Further, what proof do you have of that that you can share with us (other than the WT said so)?

    Would you be willing to discuss the Bible apart from interpreting it through the lens of the WT?

    Would you be willing to acknowledge that perhaps the WT is wrong, if you can be shown that they have falsely prophesied?

    As theoldadam said, are YOU currently doing enough to merit being a good JW and to gain life on Paradise Earth, since you have no hope of even being in Heaven?

    Steve, let me also ask you another question, and I’d appreciate your candid, honest answer. I’m trying to be serious, this is no joke.

    Let’s say the Watchtower told you, in no uncertain times, that 2+2=5, not 4 as is commonly thought. Would you question that, or would you simply accept it, since it was the WT, the “faithful and discreet slave”, who said it?

  7. What lies was I referencing?

    DavidW’s definition off true vs false Christianity.

    Manfred’s quote from that seemingly JW.

    The oldadam’s thinking that we are legalistic.
    __________________________________________________________________________________
    “Why do you believe that 1914 is the time that Christ is now ruling in Heaven? Further, what proof do you have of that that you can share with us ?

    Jehovah made a covenant with David that his son(s) would sit on his (Jehovah’s) throne forever. That line continued until 607. In 607 Nebuchadnezzar invaded Jerusalem and dethroned Jehoiakim and he was no longer sovereign.

    Or according to Nelson Barbour’s chronology which was adopted by Russell, 607 was when Jerusalem was destroyed and Zedekiah was dethroned.

    Both are the same. Then that covenant was paused for 2520 years until 1914. Afterall, Jesus came to the earth as the son of David, line of Judah but he did not become king so there had to be some kind of break. The kingdom was future of that time.

    “Would you be willing to discuss the Bible apart from interpreting it through the lens of the WT?”

    I always do and just did.

    “Would you be willing to acknowledge that perhaps the WT is wrong, if you can be shown that they have falsely prophesied?”

    I don’t believe that the WT ever prophesied so they could not have falsely prophesied. It is merely a printing company and no more.

    “As theoldadam said, are YOU currently doing enough to merit being a good JW and to gain life on Paradise Earth, since you have no hope of even being in Heaven?”

    Gaining life is not about what we do, it is about what Jesus did. We just show him that we want it. I don’t want to be in heaven, who would? They have no form or shape or senses no knowledge no sight or hearing.
    _____________________________________________________________________________________
    “Let’s say the Watchtower told you, in no uncertain times, that 2+2=5, not 4 as is commonly thought. Would you question that, or would you simply accept it, since it was the WT, the “faithful and discreet slave”, who said it?”

    I question everything as JWs are supposed to question everything. The WT has printing incorrect things before. No big deal.

  8. “The WT has printing incorrect things before. No big deal.”

    That speaks volumes

    - Jeff H

  9. Why would it matter if the Watchtower has made mistakes?

    Their virtues do not save us and their sins do not condemn us.

    Jesus’ virtues is what saves us and our sins and his sins (none) is what condemns us.

    It gets no more difficult than that. But you all make it more difficult.

  10. Steve,

    Your timeline is dependent on the date 607 B.C. What if 607 B.C. is wrong? What if it was actually 586 B.C.? How would that affect your doctrines?

    Thanks,
    Bill

    P.S. Romans 8:14 says, “Because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.” But supposedly, only the 144,000 are sons of God.

  11. If Jerusalem was destroyed in 586 it would not affect our doctrines. That was what E B Elliott believed in 1844 before the Watchtower Society. He based the start of the gentile times on the first invasion in 606/607 and used 586 as the destruction of Jerusalem.

  12. What lies was I referencing?

    DavidW’s definition off true vs false Christianity.

    What do you disagree with, what is a lie? David said that “true Christianity encourages reason, logic, thinking for yourself, examination of the evidence”, while false Christianity “discourages independent thought, and encourages blind acceptance and surrender of the mind and will to the leadership, pastor, or organizational pronouncements.” Do you disagree with this overall premise?

    David also said that true Christianity “tests all things”, while false Christianity “is afraid or unwilling to truly test and compare their beliefs and practices according to God’s revealed truth.” Do you also disagree with this? 1 John 4 makes it clear that we are to test what we have heard, and in fact the Berean Christians were commended in Scripture for having checked what they heard back to the Scriptures to see if what had been said was true. Do you think this is bad? Wouldn’t it be irresponsible to NOT do that?

    Manfred’s quote from that seemingly JW.

    Manfred said that the person, who admitted to being a JW, said he was “not permitted to read unapproved documents.” You appear to think of this person as a “seemingly” JW. On what basis do you question that? Is it b/c of the statement the person made? Are you saying that YOU wouldn’t make that statement, thereby trying to infer that NO JW should make that statement either? Or are you trying to say that the statement isn’t true, and that it is perfectly acceptable within the JW religion to accept and read documents about religion from sources outside the WTBS? Just trying to understand why you imply that this person was not a JW, since I’m assuming you never personally talked to them and discovered their qualifications.

    The oldadam’s thinking that we are legalistic.

    Theoldadam spoke about asking JW’s about their keeping of the law and doing good works. Do you believe good works are important? Do you believe they are necessary to be performed, for salvation? What do you believe is necessary for salvation? I guess you’ll have to answer according to what you think it will take to be found worthy to live on Paradise Earth, since you won’t be in Heaven (it’s full, right?).

    Jehovah made a covenant with David that his son(s) would sit on his (Jehovah’s) throne forever. That line continued until 607. In 607 Nebuchadnezzar invaded Jerusalem and dethroned Jehoiakim and he was no longer sovereign.

    Or according to Nelson Barbour’s chronology which was adopted by Russell, 607 was when Jerusalem was destroyed and Zedekiah was dethroned.

    Might I ask you where you derive the 607 BCE date from? History books – based on fact – disagree with that date, and place it around 587 BCE or so, some 20 years LATER than the date that JW’s claim. What is the basis for that claim, especially since it is that date which, when added to your 2,520 years, arrives you at the oft-spoken date of 1914. Using the ACTUAL date of around 587 would leave you with a date of around 1934, which would mean that Christ actually didn’t establish His Kingdom until 20 years AFTER you claim it did, so the people during that 20 year period would have been under a false impression of Christ’s rule. Could you please provide the evidence for your 607 BCE date? You can’t say it doesn’t matter, b/c it is the very BASIS for the 1914 date.

    Both are the same. Then that covenant was paused for 2520 years until 1914. Afterall, Jesus came to the earth as the son of David, line of Judah but he did not become king so there had to be some kind of break. The kingdom was future of that time.

    Meaningless unless you can definitively establish 607 BCE as being correct, and I’m sorry, but all factual evidence simply proves that date to be wrong. Is the WTBS (and thus the JW’s) the only group that has gotten the actual date right, and all other factual sources – history books, encyclopedias, commentaries, etc… – have ALL gotten it wrong by at least 20 years? Is that what you would have us believe?

    I always do and just did.

    If you are indeed willing, then in all future conversations, please refrain from referring to ANY information you have learned from the WTBTS, with no quotes or general thoughts from it. Further, you’ll need to operate with a standard KJV, NAS, or NIV Bible, one that has NOT been printed by the WTBTS such as the New World Translation. If you “always” are willing to discuss things without using the Watchtower’s lens, that would have to exclude using THEIR printed version of the Bible, which simply does not match up to the best manuscripts as far as accurate translation goes.

    As such, I then have a question for you. Would you please read John 1:1 in the NIV for me, and tell me what that verse says (without any WTBTS influence, of course) about who Jesus is? What was He in the beginning? Who was He with? Who is He? I’ll be curious to see your take on it NOT using the lens of the Watchtower, as you say you don’t do.

    I don’t believe that the WT ever prophesied so they could not have falsely prophesied. It is merely a printing company and no more.

    Let’s set the stage for how to test to see if a prophecy is even correct. In The Watchtower, March 1, 1975, Jehovah’s Witness leaders declared, “The Bible itself establishes the rules for testing a prophecy in Deuteronomy 18:20-23
    and 13:1-8…” (p. 151). I would agree with this, as it is, of course, in the Bible. This would demand that the prophecy be accurate, and if it is found to not come true, you know the person or group who made the prophecy is not a true prophet.

    Numerous prophecies have been made in JW/WTBTS literature. Among these are the dates of 1874, 1914, 1925 and 1975 – I’m sure you’re familiar with them. Let’s see what the official JW/WTBTS literature says about these very prophecies (I’ve included the specific cites, so you can look these up for yourself, rather than just taking my word for it):

    They admit that Charles Taze Russell was wrong in his 1874 prediction of Christ’s second coming. (Man’s Salvation Out of World Distress at Hand, p. 287. In fact, under oath, legal counsel for the Society, Hayden C. Covington also admitted the
    prophecy was false, and that it nevertheless had to be accepted by Witnesses to preserve “unity at all costs.” See transcript in Gruss, The Jehovah’s Witnesses and Prophetic Speculation, op. cit., pp. 99-101.)

    They admit that they were wrong in their 1914 prediction. (1975 Yearbook of Jehovah’s Witnesses (WBTS, 1974), p. 76.)

    They admit that they were wrong in their prediction of 1925 (1975 Yearbook of Jehovah’s Witnesses (WBTS, 1974), p. 145-146.)

    They admit that they were wrong about their prediction in 1975. (1980 Yearbook of Jehovah’s Witnesses (WBTS, 1979), pp. 30-31.)

    Yet, amazingly enough, they STILL claimed that for over a century “Jehovah’s servants” have “enjoyed spiritual enlightenment and direction.” (1975 Yearbook of Jehovah’s Witnesses, op. cit., p. 245.)

    I find this amazing, since they don’t even meet the criteria that THEY THEMSELVES admitted (and printed, since they’re ONLY a printing company, right??) was the criteria by which to judge prophecies!!

    Let’s say that you and I were standing face to face, and I told you to look behind you b/c there was a snake, and there really wasn’t one. Let’s say I told you that again a few minutes later, and again no snake. Let’s say I told you again a few minutes later, and still no snake. Let’s say I told you a fourth time, and you turned, and once again, no snake. Yet after all this, I told you I’m going to tell you some things you need to know, and that you need to TRUST me that they’re true. How inclined are you to believe me, since the previous 4 times, what I’ve told you hasn’t been true? Maybe you’re just more of a trusting guy than me, Steve – but if that’s the case, I would call that blind and foolish faith, rather than trust. It’s no different than what the WTBTS is doing. Repeatedly they’ve been wrong, yet people still adhere to what is written. Further, if you claim that it’s not the WTBTS you follow, but rather the Bible, again, whose lens are you viewing things through? I posed this to you earlier, Steve.

    Gaining life is not about what we do, it is about what Jesus did. We just show him that we want it. I don’t want to be in heaven, who would? They have no form or shape or senses no knowledge no sight or hearing.

    Steve, where have you gathered your information about Heaven, and what it will, or won’t, be like? Could you please let me know? I’m assuming it’s directly from the Bible, without WTBTS influence, since you say they don’t influence you at all, but I’m not familiar with what you say it will be like, based on my reading of Scripture, so I’d appreciate you pointing me to your sources.

    I question everything as JWs are supposed to question everything. The WT has printing incorrect things before. No big deal.

    Is it truly no big deal? Steve, I KNOW people who have been disfellowshipped, b/c they refuse to believe what is written and they no longer believe the JW/WTBTS group is correct, and it has been extremely difficult. It’s like a complete shunning, even by family members, as if they didn’t exist anymore. It truly is sad. Do you know why this happened to them? B/c they “questioned” what they say written and taught. Further, instead of being ENcouraged to do it, as you attempt to imply is standard operating procedure, they were strongly DIScouraged to do it, and in fact threatened that disfellowship would occur if they continued. They could not give up their questions, however, as they were not being answered and what they continued to “question” just didn’t make sense, resulting in their disfellowship.

    If the WTBTS printing incorrect things is “no big deal”, as you claim, then why, when it is “questioned” (which you claim is OK), does such harsh punishment and banishment ensue? Could you please explain that for me?

    I know several JW’s in my area. If I went to them in a friendly manner, and told them what you tell me here, that they may have published incorrect info, and that it is perfectly OK to question it, perfectly OK to accept non-WTBTS literature and study it, and that disfellowship doesn’t occur, and give them your name and website info, and ask them to run that up the hierarchy in the organization and see if that matters, are you comfortable with that? Just curious…

  13. “Why would it matter if the Watchtower has made mistakes?”

    o.k. I see which tactic you’re trying to use… ‘the WT is not the JWs, they’re just a publishing house’.

    Got it.

    Well, the WT produces all of the false doctrine you and your fellow adherents follow (despite your claims to the contrary – been to the kingdom hall, lately?) – and use to proselytize.

    False prophesies and false doctrine, starting with Charles Taze Russell as the rotted root, and permeating every corrupt branch of your cult.

    The Bible (not that blasphemous nwt) has never contained a single error (in fact it is INFALLIBLE), and it is the revelation of our God, and the basis of our Christian doctrine.

    The Bible (not the WT literature, nor the corrupt nwt) is is the Testimony of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ (Who is not Michael the archangel).

    If Charles Taze Russell and the WT was subjected to the Levitical Laws concerning the requirement to have perfection in prophesy, they would have been stoned to death.

    God does not play around with those who would presume to speak for Him.

    Put away your JW error-laden publications, your work righteousness ‘religion’ (have you worked hard enough for the New Earth? Are you sure? – The answer is you CAN’T).

    But, if you call out to the Lord, turn away from your sins and to Him, and put your full trust and faith in Jesus, He has promised He will be merciful and forgive your sins and save you.

    Today! Right now!

    You can be born again, a new creation in Christ Jesus, and receive Eternal Life – as a free gift!

    If, however, you try to work your way into Heaven (or the New Earth and New Jerusalem), you will die in your sins and Jesus Himself will pass His Judgment on you:

    “23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:23)

    And you will go to Hell – FOREVER.

    There is no annihilation. Hell is forever! The smoke of your torment (as you reap the wages of your sins) will rise before God forever and ever (see Revelation 14:11)

    TODAY is the day of Salvation! Please consider this, my JW friend…

    - Jeff H

  14. Brad said:”Might I ask you where you derive the 607 BCE date from? History books – based on fact – disagree with that date, and place it around 587 BCE or so, some 20 years LATER than the date that JW’s claim.”

    Are you people that dense?

    We did not derive the 607 date as the start of the gentile times. That precedes the WTS. The ones what derived that date held that Jerusalem was destroyed in 586 and 20 years prior to that, at the first invasion by Babylon, the kings in the line of David lost their sovereignty. That is where the 606 comes from. Forget this whole, when Jerusalem was destroyed stuff. That is not relevant.

    What is also evidence of the density of the minds of opposers is that their criticism of Jesus’ enthronement in 1914, makes meaningless the prophesies of Jesus being in the line of David, the tribe of Judah. To you, Jesus lived and died and his being of Judah did not matter.

    If he does not become king then his being in the line of Judah meant nothing and he is not the messiah.

    So we acknowledge he is the messiah by valuing that he is of the line of David, the see of Jesse, the lion of the tribe of Judah. He lived and died but did not become king while on earth, so it must be later, in the heavens.

  15. Hey Steve,

    What about Salvation?

    What about being born again?

    What about Jesus Christ (not Michael the archangel)?

    The JW ‘Jesus’ is a false ‘messiah’. As a JW, you do not have the real Jesus.

    The Bible is clear that if you don’t have the Son (Jesus), then you don’t have the Father either…

    Will playing around with dates save you then?

    Right now, very likely, Charles Taze Russell is in Hell. He rejected the Jesus of the Bible and would have then died in his sins.

    While I know you don’t follow the man Russell, he and his cronies are the ones (primarily) who penned the beliefs shared by yourself the rest of the JW cult.

    Is his ‘theology’, which has been clearly shown to be (to its adherents) damnably false, really worth your eternal soul?

    - Jeff H

  16. Steve: For clarity sake, my statement on true vs. false Christianity was not a definitive maxim. It was a limited comparative statement. Obviously, there are a whole lot more differences between true and false Christianity than that. And I thought I made that clear when I said this was just one of the basic differences. It was meant to remind us to always test, according to the Scriptures, whether or not something being taught is truly Biblical, truly Christian. I was not saying that those who think for themselves are necessarily Christian. Or that those who do not think for themselves are necessarily not Christians. But there is something amiss when any religious group, any church, any religious organization claims or attempts to speak for God, or in any way discourages the independent examination of the Scriptures for oneself. There is something amiss when one holds tenaciously to one’s own church beliefs and pronouncements, over the clear teaching of the whole of the Word of God (as given in entirely in the 66 books of the Bible). There is something amiss when religious doctrine is fashioned from man’s “revelations” or man’s ideologies. If we find ourselves in any such church or religious organization, we need to understand, that is not representative of true Christianity.

    I happen to have some JW friends. Very nice people. Unfortunately, it’s difficult to talk about the Bible with them, because whenever we get to the heart of the issue of the Deity of Jesus Christ, the Deity of the Holy Spirit, etc., they simply parrot back to me the beliefs of their organization. When we look at various places in the Scriptures that cause them to think for themselves (outside of the programmed answers they have been taught to use), they stop, and go to their church leaders for an answer. And it’s really a shame, because these very nice people are not really thinking for themselves, but relying on others to interpret the Scriptures for them.

  17. Steve,

    If we are to properly evaluate the claims of Jehovah’s Witnesses, we need consistency. You say one thing about Jehoikim and Jehovah’s Witness literature says something different. Do you wish to be the authoritative voice for Jehovah’s Witnesses? If your reasoning differs from the published literature, should we believe you or the literature?

    Here’s what “What does the Bible Really Teach?” (copyright 2005, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, page 216) says on this topic:

    How and when, though, did God’s rulership begin to be “trampled on by the nations”? This happened in 607 B.C.E. when Jerusalem was conquered by the Babylonians. “Jehovah’s throne” became vacant, and the line of kings who descended from David was interrupted. (2 Kings 25:1-26) Would this ‘trampling’ go on forever? No, for the prophecy of Ezekiel said regarding Jerusalem’s last king, Zedekiah: “Remove the turban, and lift off the crown….It will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him. (Ezekiel 21:26, 27)

    Zedekiah is the last king, and is the king when Nebuchadnezzar destroys Jerusalem in 586 B.C. The Watchtower references this story in 2 Kings 25, and that is the event from which they count the 2520 years.

    Clearly, you’re not in favor of anyone believing the Watchtower teaching on this topic, as you’ve rejected it yourself. This is the 2nd topic you and I have discussed where you espouse your own teaching rather than the Watchtower’s. If you reject the teaching of the faithful and discreet slave, why shouldn’t we?

    Thanks,
    Bill

  18. We did not derive the 607 date as the start of the gentile times. That precedes the WTS. The ones what derived that date held that Jerusalem was destroyed in 586 and 20 years prior to that, at the first invasion by Babylon, the kings in the line of David lost their sovereignty. That is where the 606 comes from. Forget this whole, when Jerusalem was destroyed stuff. That is not relevant.

    Thanks for pointing out to me what you believe to be relevant. I believe it to be relevant, as Bill points out in his post above, that your view and the official printed literature from the WTBTS differ – so which should we believe, and why?

    What is also evidence of the density of the minds of opposers is that their criticism of Jesus’ enthronement in 1914, makes meaningless the prophesies of Jesus being in the line of David, the tribe of Judah. To you, Jesus lived and died and his being of Judah did not matter.

    How does my questioning your beliefs, and those held by JW’s and the WTBTS, of the 1914 date make Jesus’ lineage meaningless? I’m not disputing that Jesus was in the line of David, or the tribe of Judah. No argument here on that. Where did I say that “Jesus lived and died and his being of Judah did not matter?” You are now putting words in my mouth, Steve. Wouldn’t it be better to ask questions of me, and let me respond (which is exactly what I do when I ask questions of you), rather than you assume you know what I’m thinking. This is why I ask you things – b/c I don’t know you, and thus don’t know what all you believe. I try not to assume, either (as best I can). You don’t seem to stick to that, by putting words in my mouth.

    If he does not become king then his being in the line of Judah meant nothing and he is not the messiah.

    Never said that Jesus isn’t the King who will rule the world. And certainly I do believe He is and was the promised Messiah.

    So we acknowledge he is the messiah by valuing that he is of the line of David, the see of Jesse, the lion of the tribe of Judah. He lived and died but did not become king while on earth, so it must be later, in the heavens.

    He was not an earthly King while here, but became the perfect sacrifice for our sins. And yes, He will one day reign again, publicly, over everything. But again, you’ve managed to veer the issue away. My contention was never that He isn’t or won’t be King – it was how you know it happened secretly in 1914? And you still haven’t shown that, Steve.

    Looking forward to your answers on the numerous other questions I’ve asked you – I hope you’ll consider them seriously and respond. Would be nice to see you do so without accusing me, or others, of being “dense” or any other derogatory remark, as well.

  19. Matthew 24:44-45 (NWT) says, “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so.”

    Fact: In 1914, when Christ “invisibly returned,” The Watchtower was churning out false prophecies about when Christ would return.

    Quick question: Wouldn’t that mean that the WT isn’t the “faithful and discreet slave,” since they were prophesying falsely when Christ supposedly returned? Unless they consider prophesying falsely to be giving “food at the proper time?”

  20. Of course the WT isn’t the FDS. The people working within the WT are.

    Where do you get the idea that having expectations that did not come to be is equal to prophesying and would disqualify one as being faithful to Christ and his slave?

    Get a grip dude.

    Jesus does not care about any of that date looking.

    What he cares about is that they are faithful. They have been. While you all are not preaching the kingdom JWs have been.

  21. Steve,

    What he cares about is that they are faithful. They have been. While you all are not preaching the kingdom JWs have been.

    Yes, but the question is whose kingdom are they preaching?

    Answer: the Devil’s.

  22. Common ground can be a difficult thing to achieve when so many are passionate about their points of view. In joining this conversation, it is clear those that have responded thus far accept Jesus existence as fact.

    Since that is the case, we should all be in agreement and accept what Jesus said about the great tribulation that is coming which will have far reaching consequences than what mankind has every experienced. Jesus made it clear to his followers that everyone that is living at that time will be affected regardless of their beliefs and or moral upbringings.

    So, are we keeping on the watch as Jesus strongly encouraged (Matthew 24:42, 43)? Are we attuned to the signs identifying the last days, the times we are living (2 Tim. 3:1-5)? Jesus provided many markers to help those listening to him know where we are in the stream of time.

    Jesus also indicated, at some point in time, a separating process will take place (Matt. 25:31-46). Many will be disappointed during this separating process as a direct result of there their beliefs and or way of worshiping (Matt. 7:21-23). This being the case, in these last days, it is important for all of those that accept Jesus existence as fact, to be more concern with where they stand with God.

    There are many view points on the deeper things in the scriptures; some view points may even be controversial. Some of his Jesus’ followers, while in Capernaum loss respect for him and resigned there support because of the thing just too difficult for them to appreciate (John 6:48-69). Think about it! Even some of Jesus’ immediate family members (his mother, James, Jude) did not come to an appreciation of his teachings, purpose, and the reality of their future hopes until after his death (Acts 1:14 Gal 1:18, 19; 2:9; James 1:1; Jude 1:1). If you remember, in the beginning, they thought Jesus was out of his mind (Mark 3:21).

    However, these sometime controversial view points should not be impediments to understanding the many elementary truths that the Bible teaches, much of which mankind’s hopes for the future are based.

  23. In joining this conversation, it is clear those that have responded thus far accept Jesus existence as fact.

    Steve,

    The issue is not centered around the finer points of eschatology.

    You may claim to believe in ‘Jesus’, but your ‘Jesus’ is a work of fiction… not the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

    Your ‘ Jesus’ is Michael the archangel. Jesus created the angels… and angels cannot save you – only the real Jesus can. Jesus did not die to save the angels, either. He died and rose again to save fallen man.

    We (all of the saints – those who have repented of their sins and put their faith in the real Jesus Christ) get to receive eternal life and will live with the Lord forever.

    The Bible is perfectly clear about this! Living in the presence of our Lord is not a gift that is limited to a tiny (144,000) group of old, dead people, who started a cult a long time ago (JWs)…

    The privilege of spending eternity enjoying personal fellowship with the Lord and worshipping Him forever is open to all who will receive Christ.

    If your cult was wrong – even once – it is false.

    Eschatology is important, even reassuring to those who are saved. Nevertheless, arguing about the ordering of events during the end times – and missing out on the Author of Salvation – you have missed everything.

    Steve, trust in the real Jesus Christ for your salvation, do it today.

    In Jesus (the real One),

    - Jeff H

  24. Steve K,

    You said Of course the WT isn’t the FDS. The people working within the WT are.

    Oh, OK. So then let me revise my question:

    Fact: In 1914, when Christ “invisibly returned,” The people who worked within the Watchtower were churning out false prophecies about when Christ would return.

    Quick question: Wouldn’t that mean that the people who worked within the Watchtower aren’t the “faithful and discreet slave,” since they were prophesying falsely when Christ supposedly returned? Unless they consider prophesying falsely to be giving “food at the proper time?”

    Where do you get the idea that having expectations that did not come to be is equal to prophesying and would disqualify one as being faithful to Christ and his slave?

    OK….so if the people who worked within the Watchtower were leading people astray back then about when Christ would return, how do they know they are speaking the truth today about anything? Sounds kinda like something out of the Mormon playbook. “Well, yeah, Joseph Smith said that, but he wasn’t speaking from God then.” (Substitute “Watchtower” for Joseph Smith, and I think we get the idea).

  25. Jeff H,
    Again, common ground can be a difficult thing to achieve when so many are passionate about their points of view. Your view point on the Watchtower is dully noted and respected. No one, so far from what I have read is or wants to challenge your view point on this matter. And I surely am not one to debate what I know to be Bible truth, especially since I am at a disadvantage as to who I am conversing with. So, let’s move on.

    Let me be clear. First, my comments were not intended to focus anyone’s attention on who Jesus was, but rather on what he strongly encouraged his followers to do. Second, I seek to encourage all those who are truly seeking truth on how to survive the “great tribulation” and to read and study their Bibles. This is why I use the scriptures to support my comments.

    Judging from your response, you clearly have no issue with the facts of Jesus existence. The question remains, though, are You a follower of the Christ (John 10:16, 27)? Are You obedient to his commend to preach and teach about the good news concerning God’s Kingdom (Matt. 24:14; Matt. 28:19-20)? Are You in agreement and accept what Jesus said about the great tribulation that is coming which will have far reaching consequences than what mankind has every experienced (Matt. 24:21, 22; Mark 13:19, 20)? Jesus made it clear to his followers that everyone that is living at that time will be affected regardless of their beliefs, eschatological view points, and or moral upbringings.

    You made an excellent point when you stated, “The privilege of spending eternity enjoying personal fellowship with the Lord and worshipping Him forever is open to all who will receive Christ.”

    Used in this context, Merriam-Webster defines “receive” as to accept as authoritative, true, or accurate: believe

    So, are You keeping on the watch as Jesus (authoritative) strongly encouraged (Matthew 24:42, 43)? Are You staying attuned to the signs identifying the last days, the times we are living (2 Tim. 3:1-5; Matt. 24:7-28)? The “You” not only refers to Jeff H, but to all that read my response to Jeff H; all that are following (receiving) the Christ.

    Jesus also indicated, at some point in time, a separating process will take place (Matt. 25:31-46). Many will be disappointed during this separating process as a direct result of there their beliefs, eschatological view points, and or way of worshiping (Matt. 7:21-23). Therefore, as I have stated, in these last days, it is important for all those that accept Jesus existence as fact and or have “receive Christ”, to be more concern with where they stand with his Father, Jehovah.

  26. Jeff H,

    The devil has no kingdom.

    He does not want people to preach.

    He wants people to not preach Jehovah’s kingdom.
    ————————————————————————————–

    Jeff H,

    ” but your ‘Jesus’ is a work of fiction… not the Jesus Christ of the Bible.”

    There is only one Jesus, the one who said John 3:16 that he is the only begotten son of God.

    “Your ‘ Jesus’ is Michael the archangel. Jesus created the angels… and angels cannot save you – only the real Jesus can.”

    The Bible is the one that calls Michael the archangel. Nonetheless, he does what Jesus was prophesied to do. If Jesus is not the one who casts out Satan from heaven as per Rev 12, then Jesus is a fraud and fails to fulfill scripture.

    Next:

    “Jesus did not die to save the angels, either. He died and rose again to save fallen man.”

    Your point is what? Not relevant to this discussion.

    “We will live with the Lord forever.”

    If you wish to believe that, that is your choice. The tooth fairy is your choice too.

    “Living in the presence of our Lord is not a gift that is limited to a tiny (144,000) group of old, dead people, who started a cult a long time ago (JWs)… ”

    No one said it is other than you. JWs don’t believe that.
    JWs believe that Jehovah God from the day of pentecost chose and anointed people with holy spirit. The ones he chose are servants of his. Such ones would not be diminishing his prophesies such as Rev 7 & 14 which John wrote that he saw only 144,000 bought from the earth.

    “The privilege of spending eternity enjoying personal fellowship with the Lord and worshipping Him forever is open to all who will receive Christ.”

    IF that is the case, why worry about it as there is nothing any of use can do about it?

    “If your cult was wrong – even once – it is false”

    I have no cult and I am right about Jesus. Nothing else matters.
    —————————————————————————————-

    fourpointer,

    What the ones back in 1914 did and taught can not disqualify them for being Jesus’ sheep. The ones of your religion had their chance and they ignored it.

    They were correct that in 1914 the end of the gentile times happened. They did not have full understanding as to what would happen then. But it does not matter since they are just observers.

  27. Steve K,

    They did not have full understanding as to what would happen then.

    So, basically you’re saying that they didn’t know what they were talking about. That is a sentiment I would absolutely agree with.

    Although, that is a bit of a quandry. If the WTBTS is “Jehovah’s channel of communication,” wouldn’t you think Jehovah would be clearer in “communicating”? Or perhaps it’s the “channel of communication” that is having trouble understanding what Jehovah is saying? And if they are having trouble understanding simple things like when Jesus will return, then how can one say they can be trusted with weightier matters?

    The more I hear, the more it sounds more like the Mormon playbook. “No, they didn’t say that. No, they didn’t say that. No, they didn’t say that. Well, OK, they said it, but you just don’t understand what it means!!” Second verse, same as the first.

    But it does not matter since they are just observers.

    “Just observers”? The WTBTS bills itself as “Jehovah’s channel of communication.” That if anyone wants to know Jehovah that they must listen to and obey the WTBTS. If you don’t believe me, this was their own statement (emphases mine):

    We should meekly go along with the Lord’s theocratic organization and wait for further clarification, rather than balk at the first mention of a thought unpalatable to us…Theocratic ones will appreciate the Lord’s visible organization and not be so foolish as to put against Jehovah’s channel their own human reasoning and sentiment and personal feelings,” (Watchtower, Feb. 1, 1952, p. 79-80).

    Then there was this (emphases mine):

    “We all need help to understand the Bible, and we cannot find the Scriptural guidance we need outside the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ organization,” (Watchtower, Feb. 15, 1981).

    They even went so far as to say that if you do not obey Watchtower teachings that you don’t love God (emphases mine):

    We cannot claim to love God, yet deny his word and channel of communication,” (Watchtower, Oct. 1, 1967, p. 591).

    But I suppose these statements were from times when “Jehovah’s channel of communication” was still trying to find their way and figure out what they believed.

  28. “They did not have full understanding as to what would happen then.”

    Yes, they knew what they were talking about. But they did not fully understand what would happen. No one did.
    Your guys didn’t either. It wasn’t time.

    “Although, that is a bit of a quandry. If the WTBTS is “Jehovah’s channel of communication,” wouldn’t you think Jehovah would be clearer in “communicating”? ”

    When it is his due time. It was not yet time for them to understand matters fully. But at least they tried. Your guys didn’t even try.

    The channel simply means that it is the way for everyone in the entire world to be taught. Not this little church here and that little church there.

    But it does not matter since they are just observers.

    “Just observers”? The WTBTS bills itself as “Jehovah’s channel of communication.” That if anyone wants to know Jehovah that they must listen to and obey the WTBTS. ”

    Yes, they observe then they communicate with all believers. How else is that to be done? This little church here and that little church there?

  29. Steve Klemetti,

    I realize you’re at a disadvantage, because you’ve been ganged up on here. However your strategy seems to be to pompously declare that you know the truth, and the rest of us are hard-headed. Then, when challenged on your claims, you don’t answer, other than to pompously declare that you have the truth.

    1 Peter 3:15 says, “…Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have….” As far as I’m concerned, you’ve been disobedient to this admonition more than once. You’ve offered almost zero reasoning as to why Jesus was enthroned in 1914.

    Furthermore, I don’t think you’re a Jehovah’s Witness in good standing. I don’t think a good Jehovah’s Witness would expose themselves to a website like this one, and I don’t think they would readily disagree with the Watchtower as you have done repeatedly.

    As far as I’m concerned, everything in this video stands, because you have refuted none of it. Thanks for the conversation.

    Bill

  30. Bill, I’ve given more proof than any of you have that he was not enthroned in 1914.

    Remember that your lack of belief in his enthronement means that you do not believe he is the lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of Jessee, the see of David. Thus he is not your messiah.

  31. Steve – Physician heal thyself for out of your own mouth you have condemned a believer in Jesus Christ because he correctly does not bend knee to an extra-Biblical tradition of man. This placing you in the same camp as the Pharisees of old and the Roman Catholics of new who do likewise to all who do not bend knee to their heretical, extra-Biblical doctrines.

  32. Yes, they observe then they communicate with all believers.

    What exactly do they “observe and communicate”?

    And are you saying that we have to bow our knee to an organization that doesn’t know from one day to the next what they believe? If so, you might as well be Mormon.

  33. Again, common ground can be a difficult thing to achieve

    This is just a smokescreen Steve… sorry.

    And I surely am not one to debate what I know to be Bible truth, especially since I am at a disadvantage as to who I am conversing with.

    If you think I have a better understanding of Scripture, shouldn’t you take off your blinders long enough to check out the errors which I have pointed out – the ones that you and all JWs make? Did you argue with your teachers in school as they attempted to instruct you? Sounds like you have a pride issue.

    So, let’s move on.

    Of course… so when I am proving through the use of Scripture – God’s own Word – that you are in error, we should just “move on.”

    Let me be clear. First, my comments were not intended to focus anyone’s attention on who Jesus was, but rather on what he strongly encouraged his followers to do.

    He commanded (not ‘encouraged’) us to preach the Gospel and make disciples of all men. To do that, you need to have the right Gospel. Your false ‘gospel’ so-called sends people to hell because it is a ‘works righteousness’ religion, and is supplied by a false ‘Father’ (“Jehovah God”), a false ‘Son’ (Michael the archangel – rather than Jesus Christ, the Eternal God-Man, begotten of the Father), and a false ‘Holy Spirit’ (an impersonal force).

    Second, I seek to encourage all those who are truly seeking truth on how to survive the “great tribulation” and to read and study their Bibles.

    If I were you, I’d be more worried about Hell.

    This is why I use the scriptures to support my comments.

    Actually, what you were doing is misusing Scripture.

    Used in this context, Merriam-Webster defines “receive” as to accept as authoritative, true, or accurate: believe

    “Receiving” Christ is the way Saint Paul phrases what occurs – in Colossians 2:6

    “6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.”

    Merriam-Webster is hardly concerned with theological accuracy.

    So, are You keeping on the watch as Jesus (authoritative) strongly encouraged (Matthew 24:42, 43)? Are You staying attuned to the signs identifying the last days, the times we are living (2 Tim. 3:1-5; Matt. 24:7-28)?

    My lamp will be full at Parousia…

    Your lamp has the ‘oil’ of false doctrine and cult heresy. It can produce no light. You have no oil of readiness.

    Steve wrote: “The devil has no kingdom.”

    Again, you are wrong.

    Satan is called – in Scripture the god of this world.

    2 Corinthians 4:4

    “4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”

    Satan commands fallen angels.

    Ephesians 6:12

    “12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.”

    He has a kingdom and the lost men of this world are the Devil’s children.

    Matthew 13:36-39

    “Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
    37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

    Jesus Christ – Fully God and fully Man, Who died on the cross and rose again and sits at the Right Hand of the Father – He is the One Who saves…

    38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
    39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil
    ; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.”

    Matthew 13:40-42

    “40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    That’s the fate of the JWs. They will die in their sins and go to Hell.

    43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    The Bible is the one that calls Michael the archangel.

    True, and he is, but JWs (including you, if you’re a JW) say that he is Jesus.

    That’s blasphemous heresy.

    Steve, essentially the rest of your post was: I’m right and you’re wrong so I ‘proved’ my point.

    No… you didn’t.

    In Jesus,

    - Jeff H

  34. Steve K.,

    You have only responded to a couple of the many questions and comments I have given you. Based on your responses to posts AFTER my comments, I can only assume that you do not intend to answer them. That’s too bad, as they really are some things you should truly look into.

    Steve, if your reply is always “I’m right and you’re wrong, b/c I know the truth”, that’s not evidence, it’s only opinion. What I was trying to talk to you about was your evidence for why you believe certain things, given the facts I pointed out. Evidently, you must not want to go down that road.

    I do hope you consider what has been written here. I don’t know your stance with the JW organization or the WTBTS itself, since you don’t seem to hold to some of their beliefs and have your own website. But if you are at all seeking truth, let’s discuss.

    thanks.

  35. Great thread here, just stumbled on this, as my wife’s boss is a JW and so started looking into JW on the web and here I am…

    Thanks guys – - for trying to share the Gospel with the JWs on this thread. God bless you.

    Brad – great snake analogy….I am so thankful the world has been warned, many times, since around 1914 I guess, about this cult.

    1 John 4:1-3:
    Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. (2) By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, (3) and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

  36. Found this by accident. No need to read as it’s all pointless drivel.

    For those who argue the accuracy of 1914… do you realize what it is you’re arguing against? You are arguing against the belief of a group of people who follow Christ as king NOW, instead of the “teenagers cleaning up after a party because the parents are on their way home” thinking of Christendom.

    Got it?

    Live life with Christ as king NOW. Sorry, but the Bible tells us clearly that there will be no last minute conversions… no matter how much you may idolize Constantine.

  37. Good stuff. Even with as much evidence as you have Guys, how should we believe that the Jehova’s witnesses are out of “order”, when they are the leading religion in preaching the truth?

  38. Hi Jr,

    I guess I would have to disagree that they are “the leading religion in preaching the truth.”

    For example, they teach that only the 144,000 are born again, but the Bible says that everyone who believes Jesus is the Christ is born again (1 John 5:1). Clearly, they have a problem if they don’t understand who is born again. After all, the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God (Romans 8:16), that is, unless, we don’t actually have the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9).

    If someone is not born again, they remain dead in their sins, and they can’t make a whole lot of claims on spiritual truths.

    Are you a Jehovah’s Witness? What do I have to do to go to heaven or paradise?

    Thanks,
    Bill

  39. Bill, you said :”but the Bible says that everyone who believes Jesus is the Christ is born again (1 John 5:1). ”

    You are not correct. It says “Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:”

    Being born of God and born again are not the same thing.

    In John’s time, yes people in general who believed were of God and born again, but that is not the case in all times since.

    You need to understand context, and stop looking for disagreements.

  40. You are wrong Matt. Born of God and born again are the same thing. No one can be “born again” unless God does it.

    That is something a lot of professing Christians do not understand much less a Jehovah’s Witness.

    John1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

  41. I agree with you Shane… In fact no one can confess Jesus is the Christ (the Anointed One) unless the Father reveals it to them. Remember Peter in Matthew 16,

    “Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ. (Matthew 16:13-20)

    The problem with JWs is that they do believe in a “Jesus”, but not the Jesus of the Bible.

    Their “Jesus” is also Michael the archangel, not the Eternal Son of the Living God.

    - Jeff H

  42. Matt,

    John 1:12-13 (NIV) “Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.”

    “Born of God” is the same thing as “born again.” We are born again, and enabled to believe in Jesus (John 3:1-16). And we are born of God when we “believe in his name” (John 1:12-13). It’s abundantly clear that those are synonymous terms. And the Watchtower teaches that only the 144,000 are children of God.

    I wish I could explain it more clearly, but all I can do is quote Scripture. I’ll provide some emphasis. 1 John 5:1 says, “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God…”

    Would you say you’re born of God, but not born again?

    “You need to understand context, and stop looking for disagreements.”

    It’s really quite obvious that the Watchtower has a huge hole in their doctrine on this point, and it is a very important point. It’s just that this topic doesn’t come up very much when on a Christian’s door step. Don’t believe what we tell you, study the Bible.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  43. from 607 B.C.E to 1914 is equal to 2520 years according to Jehovhas Witnesses and that is a SEVEN TIMES! if u read Daniel 4 u will find that Nebkadnessar was gona be living on land with animals eating grass until SEVEN TIMES pass and that is 2520 YEARS. Have he ever lived 2520 years on earth?

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