Phillip Garrido: Liar, adulterer, sex offender, kidnapper, pedophile, rapist, religion blogger.

Phillip Garrido

Phillip Garrido–the registered sex offender who kept Jaycee Lee Dugard at his compound for 18 years after kidnapping her in 1991 and fathering her two children–was apparently a religious man who wrote on his blog Voices Revealed:

. . . the Creator has given me the ability to speak in the tongue of angels in order to provide a wake-up call that will in time include the salvation of the entire world.

Now of course the Atheists are having a field day with this. “See,” they say, “all religion is bad and should be outlawed.” They use anomalies like this to indict all religions (and specifically Christianity) while ignoring the wholesale slaughter of millions of people under Atheist regimes like Lenin, Stalin, Zedong, etc. But this is nothing new, and this post is not about Atheists.

No, this post is a contemplation of the visible church of the West. Like those professing Christians that defend every lowbrow act, every worldly entanglement, and ever heresy found in American Churchianty with the proclamation, “Judge Not!” (brutally ripped from its Scriptural context of course), who then hold their tongues when faced with someone like Garrido (or even Fred Phelps) lest they be revealed as hypocrites for judging these men.

Then there are those who are willing to judge this man as a non-Christian, yet sadly they will be no better off than him on Judgment Day. Many of which will be absolutely appalled and aghast that I dared to say such a thing because they’re “good” churchgoing people who’ve asked Jesus into their hearts and have never kidnapped anyone, so surely they’re not going to end up in the same place as Mr. Garrido.

Yet the very reason this man stands condemned before God is the very same reason all mankind stands condemned before God (see John 3:18 and John 3:36). Those who have truly repented of their sins and put their trust in the living Savior (which is evidenced by a changed life) will find themselves receiving a gift they do not deserve from a God who they were once hostile to. Yet He loved us enough to crush His own Son and offer Him as a substitute for the wrath and judgment we justly deserve.

There are millions of people that think they’re going to Heaven because they haven’t killed anyone and because they’ve repeated the “sinner’s prayer,” while this man is going to Hell because he’s obviously a fraud who did a very bad thing. Those who think this way are in for a surprise because millions of people who attend church every Sunday will find themselves standing before Jesus Christ on that Last Day knowing immediately that something is not right. They will make their petitions but only hear “depart from Me, I never knew you” (Matthew 7:21-23). And Mr. Garrido will not be standing next to them for a comparison or for them to point their finger at and say, “See, I’m better than him.” You will stand alone, having to give an account for your life and all those sins you’ve committed, even the secret ones you think no one knows about.

Don’t be deceived: It was “only” one sin in the garden of Eden that was enough to cast Adam and Eve out of the Garden and usher in sin, death, and judgment upon all mankind, how much more wrath do you think you’re storing up for yourselves for the day of judgment with your daily sins?

Every one of us is born into sin and every one of us lives a life of sin. We have all sinned and all our hearts are desperately sick. We are all condemned from the start, deserving nothing but God’s righteous judgment. It is only by God’s grace–and His grace alone–that anyone is saved at all. And it’s only those who trust in His Son’s complete and finished sacrifice that will find themselves escaping the wrath to come.

Don’t think this is so much an indictment as it is a plea to examine yourselves to see if you’re truly in the faith because our Lord warned us to:

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Mr. Garrido is a sick, sick man.

Mr. Garrido is a sinner.

Mr Garrido claims to believe in God.

Mr Garrido is a religious fraud.

Mr. Garrido claims to have turned his life around but shows no evidence of it.

Mr. Garrido is biblically illiterate.

Mr. Garrido sounds like most people in church on any given Sunday.

80 thoughts on “Phillip Garrido: Liar, adulterer, sex offender, kidnapper, pedophile, rapist, religion blogger.

  1. doreen says:

    Ironic isn’t it? Garrido is on his way to eternal punishment, as are his judge, lawyer and jury.

    His relatives who are not saved. In a nutshell, all the unsaved will find themselves in the same place as him.

    But for God’s grace and the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, what chance would any of us stand of entering heaven?

    As it says in Psalm 130v3, “If You, Lord, should mark iniquities, O Lord, who could stand?”

    Who could stand? None.

    Glory to God.

  2. Let us remember that there is still hope for this man. May we pray that this man will come to true faith and repentance in Christ. That should be our position with him – praying that he will turn to the risen Savior and truly be saved.

    Soli Deo Gloria!

  3. Romans 2:21-24: “You, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

    God’s name is blasphemed when those who call themselves Christians reveal themselves to be false converts.

  4. I agree that it’s foolish to point to this clown as evidence that religion is bad, however, it is fair to point to him as evidence against such claims as religion is the answer to society’s troubles for instance. Clearly it’s no safeguard.

    Oh, and atheism is a position, not a doctrine or philosophy, so citing “atheist regimes” is as pointless as citing mustached regimes.

  5. Wade says:

    “See,” they say, “all religion is bad and should be outlawed.”

    We don’t say that, at least I don’t. I am an atheist. I would defend religious freedom with my life.

    I say, “beware those who use religion as a mask for evil deeds. Pay close attention to questionable characters’ ‘devotion'”

    I think part of the reason freethinkers and atheists are so appalled by Garrido’s profession of “religion” is that he may have successfully used it to fool the corrections officials. The frightening part, to us, is that a parole officer may have let him pass in part because he was so “god-fearing…”

    I agree with your post that he is not a real Christian…

    However, I plead that religious people do not give someone “extra points” just because they say they believe in God. Such a statement means nothing. Case in point…Garrido.

    It is someone’s actions that make up their character.

  6. How can you agree? Where’s the definitive definition of “true Christian”? 1000+ sects of Christianity, and millions of individual Christians claim they know, yet they all vary.

  7. First, PhillyChief, true Christian must be defined solely and exclusively from the infallible Word of God. Go to any major religion and yes even denomination today and you will find a group who delight in claiming to uphold the Word of God – PLUS, all of their man-made dogmas and traditions.

    Here at DefCon, we would hold necessarily to a very narrow slice of the population of the world who hold to the biblical truths found in God’s Word. This does NOT mean that every person has to agree 100% with us in what we believe. It DOES mean that we have to be in 100% agreement with how God defines His own children.

    Religion is all of man and whatever parts of God he chooses to add; however, salvation (biblical Christianity) is ALL of God and none of man.

    The Desert Pastor

  8. The Pilgrim,

    You show great courage in showing the truth of God’s Word. Watered-down Christianity has tried for years to categorize sin so much that today we have moved far from the standards set down by the Lord Jesus Christ.

    During His earthly ministry, He made it clear that hating is the SAME as murder. He said that just looking and lusting is the SAME as adultery. He said that not keeping God first and foremost in EVERY aspect of one’s life is the SAME as idolatry!

    Today, the Scriptures have been re-written so that wicked, depraved sinners can feel good about themselves. As long as they are NOT as bad in their own minds as the person next door or the guy on the evening news, then they must be acceptable to God. Pastors are perpetuating the LIES!!!

    Is this article offensive? YES! It offends our egos, our American sensibilities, our moral standards, and yes even our view of Christianity. It offends because it is true! It is a poignant reminder that no sinner is above the Cross. No sin was any less a sin to be paid for and the demand for justice from a holy, righteous God is NO LESS true for a “good, moral person” than for a rapist, murderer, or pedophile.

    Stand firm for the truth, my dear brother, and NEVER compromise! Oh, if only more pastors would preach the truth of the Scriptures that even our righteousness is as filthy rags. We would see more either being afraid to fall into the hands of an angry God, or churches will finally show forth their complete colors and turn into self-help latte centers for the masses just like Crystal Cathedral!

    The Desert Pastor

  9. Wade says:

    PhillyChief…I understand your frustration with religion. However, I think it is a bit much to suggest that any but a tiny percentage of Christians from any sect would condone Garrido’s acts.

    Even the kind of wacky one posting on this blog.

    I guess you agree with the rest of my post, thanks.

  10. First, what does condoning the action have to do with whether he’s a Christian or not?

    Second, he allegedly found religion AFTER the acts. Isn’t Christianity about repenting? Furthermore, in light of the Christians scurrying to distance their religion from this guy, isn’t it about forgiving?

    Third, you shouldn’t assume that I agree with the rest of your comments simply because I chose to address only one of them. You know what they say about assuming. ;)

  11. PhillyChief,

    1) No true Christian would ever condone the actions of Garrido. Anybody who could sympathize in any way with what this man has done also shows they are not a true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    2) Yes, he may have found religion, but he DID NOT find true Biblical Christianity! Salvation includes repenting AND turning from one’s sins. If there is no repentance or turning from sin, there is NO SALVATION.

    The Desert Pastor

  12. PhillyChief,

    Ah, the good ol’ stand-in of the most misused and abused Scripture verse of “Judge not that you be not judged.” The Lord Jesus Christ made it clear as did the writers of the New Testament that true believers have a responsibility to take a stand against those who would demean the Scriptures. In fact, in John 7:24, Jesus said, “Judge not according to appearance, but according to righteous judgment.”

    As for Luke 17:3, Jesus Christ is speaking to His disciples and is referencing the matter of discipline between believers. ALL are not brothers and ALL are not children of God.

    True Biblical Christianity is the result of a person who has come to the point where they realize their utter helplessness, their utter hopelessness, and their total depravity before the holy, righteous God of the Universe. When that person understands that without Christ, they are doomed to an eternity in hell unless the just penalty is paid, then the Holy Spirit brings them to where they can understand their need of the Saviour. Continuing in Matthew 7, the Lord Jesus Christ made it clear that the road to destruction is very broad and most are on that road, while the road to salvation is very narrow and very few will find it.

    True Biblical Christianity makes a person humbled before the God of heaven. It makes us eternally thankful that He would save the likes of me through His amazing grace. It makes us realize that religion damns the souls of the world to hell because they would rather have their guilty souls assuaged through their own good works in a vain, hopeless attempt to appease God.

    True Biblical Christianity strives to follow the two greatest commandments given by Jesus Christ. 1) Love the Lord your God with ALL your heart, soul, mind, and body. 2) Love your neighbor as yourself. Religion mixes these up and thinks that if we can just “love” one another that we are in turn loving God and He will have to accept us. WRONG ANSWER!

    Millions and billions around the world have it wrong because they simply do not believe the God of the Bible. They believe in a god of their own making and their own choosing.

    The Desert Pastor

  13. Nice and conveniently vague enough so that every Christian sect could be Christian while simultaneously any one could deem any of the rest as not true Christians.

    Btw, how do you reconcile “ALL are not brothers and ALL are not children of God” with “Love your neighbor as yourself?”

  14. PhillyChief,

    If you were to read the Scriptures and then compare with what you find in true Biblical Christianity, you would find that there is nothing “conveniently vague” with what I shared. It is the simple message of the gospel which was preached by the Lord Jesus Christ and the early New Testament church. Every “Christian” sect could not and would not endorse what I stated in my last message for it would condemn them and their followers to the Christless eternity that they are headed for. Instead, they would rather believe that they can work themselves up to heaven in some manner.

    As for the reconciliation question, again our only answer can be the Bible. Jesus Christ stated that those who do not worship Him in spirit and in truth are of their father the devil, who is the evil one and known as Satan. John 3:36 states that God does NOT love the sinner and accepts the sinner as he is or wants to come. John 3:36 makes it clear that the wrath of God abides upon ALL who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ alone for their salvation.

    It is because we love our neighbor as ourselves that we are able to share the truth of Scripture instead of watering it down to make it acceptable to the depraved mind of all mankind. If I cared not for others, I would simply watch them pass by without seeking to share that hell is real and eternity is forever. Do I do a perfect job? No, I am afraid I fail many times. I always strive to remember that but for the grace of God, there go I.

    The Desert Pastor

  15. Wade says:

    Phillychief:

    I don’t know, why don’t you tell me.

    And the assume joke is old and ridiculous.

    I think you are just in the mood to pick a fight, even with people you probably mostly agree with, so whatever.

    The point I was trying to make (apparently poorly) is that atheists and freethinkers generally do not want to ban religion, as the OP stated. That would be an unacceptable curtailment of thought.

    My subpoint was that religion is often used as a mask, so it would be nice if religious people were a little more skeptical.

    I can’t prove that Mr. Garrido wasn’t a true Christian…and I don’t care. However, although the Bible contains acts attributed to Gods and Demigods that could be considered evil by Christians’ own standards, modern-day Christians would almost universally condemn rape, kidnapping, murder, etc.

    I was *trying* to show them that not all atheists are antagonistic to them, so that maybe they would think, “well that guy was pretty reasonable…”

    The Christians here are just having the same reaction I would if, say, a mass murderer stated he did so because they were an atheist…as in “great, he is giving us a bad name…time to disclaim…”

    Anyway, you won’t win an argument with the faithful, especially here…I just want them to keep a closer watch on criminal types who try to hide behind religion.

  16. Jeff H says:

    PhillyChief,

    What could be more “interesting” than the Son of God loving the unlovable (sinful man) enough to pay for our rebellion (sins) by taking our punishment on the cross… giving those who repent (turn FROM sin and turn TO God) and trusting fully in Jesus Christ for our salvation?

    Jesus offers forgiveness of sins, reconciliation with God, and eternal life to you right now.

    You have now heard the gospel message.

    Are you too proud to receive God’s gift?

    – Jeff H

  17. Wade: My interest is in critical thinking. Just because we may agree about certain things doesn’t mean I should grant you a pass on certain missteps. If you see that as looking to pick a fight, c’est le vie.

    Jeff: Are you too proud for rationality?

  18. Jeff H says:

    “Jeff: Are you too proud for rationality?”

    Nope – I know the truth and wouldn’t trade it for ANY of man’s lies, thanks.

    – Jeff H

  19. That’s because it makes no sense. First, it wouldn’t be a gift. Second, pride has nothing to do with whether anyone would accept it or not. Third, there’s no reason to believe in the existence of any deities.

  20. Wade,

    I am afraid you misunderstand the purpose of our blogging at this site. Christians should be very skeptical of anything that does not reflect the Lord Jesus Christ in the life of a person who makes claims to be one of Christ’s followers. Personally, I feel that you did try to be reasonable within the confines of your own beliefs and even gracious in the permitting (in your own mindset) to allow for religion to be followed.

    For what it is worth, I would no more consider Garrido to be giving atheists a bad name than Christians by his actions. The problem here is that I believe you have focused on the wrong entities. This is not an issue of whether he is giving “Christianity” a bad name. The real heart of the matter is whether what he is doing lines up with Scripture and whether in turn he is demeaning the God of the Bible he claims to have had an experience with. Again, the bottom line is that he has no more of a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ than you or anybody else in this world who has never placed that faith in Christ alone based on the finished work on the cross at Calvary.

    Finally, this is NOT about merely winning arguments. This is a matter of life and death, but again the Bible makes it clear that the wisdom of God is foolishness to those who do not believe and that the wisdom of the world is utter foolishness to the Creator God, Maker of heaven and earth. Thanks for stopping by and we pray that something said here will make you consider your eternal destiny. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God.

    With regards,

    The Desert Pastor

  21. Jeff H says:

    So, PhillyChief…

    It doesn’t sound like you came here to troll…

    Why ARE you here?

    If you don’t believe in God, then why don’t you just “pat us on our little heads”, say you don’t agree and move on to your next “conquest”?

    Or, is there something more going on?

    Is there something about hearing the truth that has you drawn to this discussion?

    Hmmmm.

  22. PhillyChief,

    I am afraid according to the Scriptures you are wrong on all three counts.

    1 – Not a gift – Romans 6:23 – “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

    2 – Pride – Psalm 10:4 – “The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God; God is in none of his thoughts.”
    Proverbs 16:18 – “Pride goes before destruction, And a haughty spirit before a fall.”
    Mark 7:21-23 – “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”

    3 – No deities – Psalm 14:1-3 – “To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.>> The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good. The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one.”

    The Desert Pastor

  23. Wade says:

    Desert Pastor:

    Thanks for your well-intentioned wishes for me.

    I will say again, I respect your beliefs, in that I believe in freedom of thought, but cannot agree with them.

    For example, If you believe that Revelation is literally true, you believe that Jesus came to Earth to profess peace and love only as a temporary ruse. According to the Bible, Jesus intends to return to *personally* unleash war, famine, pestilence, and plague on the earth in an unprecedented and genocidal fashion. I can’t follow any god that intends such horrors.

    As a more realistic example, any God who could foresee Mr. Garrido’s existence and allow his actions might be a bit off. Old arguments, yes, but true nonetheless.

    Did you know that bullies and sociopaths get pleasure from causing pain? Why would god create that variation of neurons if “free will” and choosing unsinful behavior is so important? Why not create us with a nausea instinct for murder?

    Phillychief, you certainly put the “critical” in critical thinking. Glad you are such a pro.

  24. Wade,

    Thanks for your comments and your willingness to dialogue with us. Yes, we do have the freedom of thought and can even disagree with others without current fear of reprisal. However, I do not know how long that will last, but I digress.

    Do I believe Revelation is literally true? Yes. However, your next statement reveals a tragic misunderstanding of the Scriptures in regards to the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ. He did NOT come to profess peace and love. Christ laid aside His glory with the Father to come to this earth for one purpose – to die for sinners. He came to call sinners to repentance. He proclaimed that peace that passes all understanding only comes when our hearts and minds are right with the God of heaven. The horrors which I believe will be unleashed will be because the world at large has and continues to reject the Sovereign Lord of heaven.

    Let me use a different example that might help clarify. You work hard at being a good neighbour. You send everybody in your neighbourhood gifts. You water their lawns, invite them to barbeques, walk their dogs, etc. for years and years. All you ask in return is that you be allowed to adopt those you choose so they might have a permanent inheritance that will keep them wealthy forever. Instead, they spurn you over and over. They act nasty towards you, they kill your animals, they assault your wife, and they burn your house down. How patient will you be with neighbours who act in such a manner? The final straw is when you decide that your son has to go to court to pay the penalty for the heinous crimes of these nasty neighbours. He does so, and you turn around and extend the same offers as before. Again, how long would you wait before unleashing the dogs of war against those neighbours for abusing all that you hold dear?

    While a poor earthly example, I would hope you get the point I am trying to make. God is very long-suffering. He is patient and very merciful. However, the bottom line is that He cannot and will not continue to allow mankind to go unpunished for what was done to His Son. He will not allow people to continue forever in their wicked depravities without a penalty being exacted. This is where the Book of Revelation comes in. This will only occur after the gospel goes to the ends of the earth, and only after miracles that point to and exalt the matchless Son of God, Jesus Christ.

    To answer your other question – God did foresee Mr. Garrido’s existence and allowed him to remain breathing. However, the fallacy is when we (as I mentioned in a previous comment) think that somehow are sinful actions are any less offensive to a perfect, holy, righteous God than what Mr. Garrido has done. As for a “nausea instinct for murder”, I believe that our conscience speaks very loudly when convicted by the Holy Spirit of God. He reveals our depravity; however, we as humans desire to move further and further from God because we do not like what He demands from us – perfect obedience to His Word. We recognize that we cannot achieve this and the only hope therefore remains with Jesus Christ. Our flesh revolts against such a thought.

    The Desert Pastor

  25. Jeff H says:

    Great analogy, DP!

    May I add that the Benefactor of your analogy also supplies the neighbors with friends, family, clothing, food, water, housing, and air – and even life itself.

    For those neighbors who claim that they “just want to be left alone”… they might want to re-think that the next time they eat… or inhale!

    – Jeff H

  26. Jeff: Call it curiosity. I have trouble fathoming how people rationalize such beliefs.

    Wade: I think you meant you respect their right to have such beliefs, but not the beliefs themselves. Speaking of pleasure from causing pain, the god of the OT likes the smell of burning flesh as offerings. As a bbq aficionado, I can sort of respect that. ;)

    Pastor: Oh I know what your book says, but I don’t agree with it. For instance, it’s not a gift if there’s a price, and the giver essentially forces you to pay for it or else he condemns you to eternal torture.

  27. PhillyChief,

    It really does not matter whether you agree with the Bible. It is still God’s Word. The trite phrase “God said, I believe it, that settles it!” is theologically incorrect. The truth is “God said it and THAT settles it!”

    As for the gift, you are correct there is a great price for eternal life, but I am afraid you and Bill Gates together could not come up with the necessary payment to obtain it. When the Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross of Calvary, He concluded His life with the Greek word, “Tetelestai!” This simply means, “It is finished!” It is a once for all time sacrifice.

    If you are married, let’s use this analogy to show the flaw of what you are thinking. You purchase a beautiful diamond ring (or whatever) for your wife. You hand her the little box on Christmas Day and say, “Wife, this is a gift for you because I love you!” How would you feel if your wife then said, “Well, how much can I pay you for this very expensive trinket?” You respond, “You can’t because it is a gift!” She retorts, “No, no, no, but I MUST insist on paying for it. I can’t believe that somebody loves me enough to pay for such an incredible gift; therefore, I want to know how long I have to work for you in order to pay off this ring.”

    I am certain any sane, rational person would smart at such a rejection. They would be highly insulted with such a preposterous suggestion. Philly, this is what you and everybody who rejects the free offer of salvation (Rom. 10:13 – “Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”) are doing. You are throwing insult after insult against the holy God of heaven because you think that you can somehow offer payment for what Christ offers FREELY.

    God the Father is not forcing you to accept His gift. However, ALL those who reject and deny the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour must atone for their own sin. There is no gift of eternal life and salvation to pay for. What ALL who reject and deny Christ will pay for is their own sin for a holy God cannot and will not look upon sin.

    What baffles me the most, PhillyChief, is that such an incredible offer is made to ALL who will but come in humility to the feet of the Saviour and accept His terms in regards to repentance and salvation. But, no, that is too good to be true. With that flawed thinking, billions will find themselves for all of eternity with nobody to blame but themselves for their own foolishness. They will curse God all the while knowing that it was their own sin which condemns them, and they enjoyed it all the way into eternal punishment.

    Respectfully keeping you in prayer,

    The Desert Pastor

  28. Gideon says:

    The Chief is a troll, folks. In fact, he’s not even a real Indian. He’s a dedicated infidel, and loves fighting with Christians. I’ve tangled with him many times… you won’t convince this hardened individual of anything, except that he’s right and you’re wrong.

    Check out his site, and you’ll see what I mean.

  29. Wade says:

    DP:

    Very well put. However, your statement highlights the difficulties many people have with your faith.

    If God is omnipotent and all-seeing, he knew that man would be sinful. In fact, he knew everything that would be flawed with his “creation.” Being omnipotent, He must have intended humans to be “fallen.” He also intended every sinful act that would ever take place. Every act of evil.

    As an example, there is scientific evidence that bullies and sociopaths get physical pleasure from causing pain to others. If God is omnipotent, and wishes man to make the correct choices, why did he create some men with the predisposition to enjoy inflicting violence on others. Doesn’t this contradict the idea that people have complete “free will” in their actions? Doesn’t this show that God’s “creation” was intended to have “sinful” elements?

    How can He then become “impatient” with the beings he created? He wanted this world if He is truly God, isn’t that true?

    In any event, He isn’t that keen on spreading the message of the gift of eternal life, as He has allegedly expressed it in a very slow communication method. It might be the slowest communication method possible, other than inscribing it on a stone in a cave somewhere.

    Why have his messenger die in the backwater middle-east, never leaving a single written word, and have a tiny band of followers have to convince people of the gospel with no evidence? Why not just appear to everyone at an appropriate time? If it was really that important, God would make sure that we had all the facts so we could make a good choice, right?

    With regard to Christ, I am definitely a doubter in the resurrection. DP, Thomas didn’t believe and it supposedly took Jesus’s resurrected body to prove the supernatural event. I simply want the same evidence. How can I be expected to believe if Thomas, who was Jesus’s contemporary, did not, without extraordinary evidence?

  30. Wade says:

    Also, if we are “insulting” God, he has no one to blame but himself. He knew we would do it and created us to do so, right?

    Also, such a being seems like he wouldn’t react so childishly – eternal damnation for just disbelief, that He created?

  31. Paul says:

    You know most of these so called “police/ parole officers” always have a chip on their shoulders, and even when they fail at their jobs they appear arrogant like saying “what are you going to do”, let’s face it, she saved herself, she was not saved by the authorities. Does anyone believe that the authorities were still investigating her disappearance? The car used in her kidnapping was in the backyard, the lazy ass cops didn’t even bother to go through the backyard when the information indicated that kids were living back there, they didn’t check local schools to see if the kids were going to school or even asked to see the kids, no report to child protective services, boy how lazy can you be and still pick up your public service check, not to mention the parole officers who failed to visit and find out where this freak was living and what he was doing. I guess she was taken in 1991, and in 1993 (only two years later) after violating probation he spent for 4 months in federal prison (California have yet to release any details of that violation or explain why he was again released into the community). Nevada officials said they were never notified of Garrido’s parole violation, which would have allowed the state to revoke his parole. Had California parole inspected his home in 1993, we would not be here now asking questions, we would be saying our system works, now I am not sure of anything. Because now I wonder how many more of these freaks are in our country doing the same thing under the noses of our so called authorities.

    Yes, I agree he should have served all the time for his first offense, but don’t let our authorities off the hook. I can only say if you have a neighbor that fits this profile, call and call again to try to ensure that this does not happen again. Simply amazing.

  32. PhillyChief,

    I have chosen not to extend the courtesy of allowing your last comment to see the light of day. I have recognized for awhile that you are just trolling here and as the saying goes –

    “There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see!”

    More importantly, 1 Corinthians 1 makes it clear why people like yourself fail to see the wisdom of God and instead choose to dwell on what God deems their own foolishness.

    I will make one final statement with you. Nobody here ever said that a person like Garrido could not be saved. God the Holy Spirit moves amongst whom He will. He convicts whom He will and none can stay His hand. When that comes to an individual though, it is always on God’s terms, not man’s. So far that has NOT happened with Garrido.

    Thanks for stopping by. I am sorry that your logic is not good enough to hold all the answers. If it did, you would not be asking questions.

    The Desert Pastor

  33. Wade says:

    “Nobody here ever said that a person like Garrido could not be saved.”

    I don’t particularly want Garrido to be saved, however sincerely he may plead for it in the future. This is a dilemma for me in relation to Christian philosophy.

    I will say again, and my original point was, beware of those who hide behind religion in order to mask their crimes.

  34. cl says:

    Desert Pastor,

    I think you’ve given PhillyChief’s comments short thrift, and I think banning PhillyChief from commenting here (if you did) was fundamentally wrong. And no – although I’d drink a beer and barbecue with the guy any day of the week – I’m not here defending a friend or fellow atheist. In full reality, I’m intellectual scum in PhillyChief’s mind, but truth needs to be defended wherever it’s found and I must come to his defense at least in part here.

    In the thread, you said, “Christians should be very skeptical of anything that does not reflect the Lord Jesus Christ in the life of a person who makes claims to be one of Christ’s followers.”

    Okay… Then, in the original post, you said, “…there are those who are willing to judge [Garrido] as a non-Christian, yet sadly they will be no better off than him on Judgment Day.”

    Okay… Then, in your conclusion, you said, “Mr. Garrido is a sick, sick man. Mr. Garrido is a sinner. Mr Garrido claims to believe in God. Mr Garrido is a religious fraud. Mr. Garrido claims to have turned his life around but shows no evidence of it. Mr. Garrido is biblically illiterate. Mr. Garrido sounds like most people in church on any given Sunday… [Garrido] may have found religion, but he DID NOT find true Biblical Christianity!”

    I am having serious difficulty here: didn’t you just judge Mr. Garrido as a non-Christian? Is it okay for “True Christians” like yourself to judge Garrido?

    You said, “..the fallacy is when we (as I mentioned in a previous comment) think that somehow [our] sinful actions are any less offensive to a perfect, holy, righteous God than what Mr. Garrido has done.”

    So, does that mean your judgment of Garrido is on par with his kidnapping and rape? Honestly. I’m not trying to troll here. Please don’t ban me. I just see what looks like a glaring inconsistency here, but I could be misunderstanding you just as well.

    Wade,

    You asked some good questions earlier in the thread that I’d be willing to take a shot at answering, wherever or whenever you like, if you’re interested.

    You said, “We don’t say that, at least I don’t. I am an atheist. I would defend religious freedom with my life.”

    Right on. Although I’m no atheist, I’m 100% with you here, and I welcome your reasoned criticism on any argument on my blog. I enjoyed reading your comments here. I found them more reasoned than the rest.

    Lastly, Paul had some good comments, too. The incompetence of the authorities seems to have taken backburner to the religious angle.

  35. Jeff H says:

    cl,

    Christians are known by their fruits (how they act once they are saved).

    Read ALL of Matthew chapter 7 to get the context, not just steal one word OUT of context to libel God.

    Mr. Garrido’s fruit is ROTTEN… there’s no denying that.

    So, remember, cl:

    context, context, context

  36. cl says:

    Jeff H

    Here’s the interesting thing, and I hope you can take this with grace and salt: you said,

    “Christians are known by their fruits (how they act once they are saved). Read ALL of Matthew chapter 7 to get the context, not just steal one word OUT of context to libel God.”

    Now that’s interesting. Presumably, you’re a Christian that’s saved, right? Then, why are you judging me? Why did you assume I was out to “libel God” as you put it, when I was really just pointing out what I felt was an honest inconsistency in DP’s post? If you knew me, you’d know that the last thing I’m interested in doing is “libeling God.”

    Ask yourself what motivated you.

  37. Jeff H says:

    cl,

    God actually commands us to judge those who claim to be in the church (The Book of Matthew, chapter 7).

    Frequently, though, the unsaved ‘whip out’ the only Bible verse they know “thou shalt not judge”, or some version thereof, and use it (out of context) like some kind of shield or a piece of kryptonite.

    We Christians are then expected to concur with the unsaved person, cower, capitulate, and flee in the face of this ‘wisdom’.

    What it actually reveals to the Christian is Biblical illiteracy on the part of the unsaved person.

    We (as Christians) have encountered it so often that when we hear the word ‘judge’, we immediately start reaching for our Bibles and open them to Matthew 7 to use the full Scripture to explain the context for biblical judging.

    That being said: God obviously DOES expect us to judge (within the confines of His Word), otherwise He would never have commanded us to do so.

    The fact is that God has much to say on the subject of Christians judging Christians (aka those who are in the Body of Christ) – including the specifics on how to conduct Church discipline!

    This is why I made a big deal out of context.

    If you were in the tiny (and I mean TINY) minority of people who actually sought clarification in this area, I hope the Scripture reference I gave you will get you started.

    When you wrote:

    “Now that’s interesting. Presumably, you’re a Christian that’s saved, right? Then, why are you judging me? Why did you assume I was out to “libel God” as you put it, when I was really just pointing out what I felt was an honest inconsistency in DP’s post? If you knew me, you’d know that the last thing I’m interested in doing is “libeling God.””

    You claim that I am “judging” you by implying that you intended to slander God.

    LIBEL:
    1 a published false statement that is damaging to a person’s reputation; a written defamation.

    cl, libel does not assign an intent. I did not accuse you of making any intentionally disparaging remarks regarding the Bible here.

    Intentionally or unintentionally misrepresenting His Word regarding how we are to judge people is in fact libel, in that God’s Character is sullied.

    So, when you wrote: “Then, why are you judging me? Why did you assume I was out to “libel God” as you put it”

    cl … I made no comments on your motivations.

    Remember, though, judging is for Christians to use within the Body of Christ.

    First, a man must be SAVED. Being ‘born again’ is all about; we are changed – we are made new. I suggest you read about Nicodemus’ encounter with Jesus (The Book of John, chapter 3)

    In Jesus’ eyes, one is either a sheep or a goat.

    You have a statement on your site that ambiguously declares: “not all freethinkers are atheists”, and stated here that you’re not an atheist.

    Nevertheless, you also have several site awards on your page from atheists.

    You cannot straddle the fence. Jesus does not allow for any of that. He plainly tells us that He is THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Life, and that no man comes to the Father except through Him.

    cl, I pray that you WOULD be soundly saved.

    When you wrote: “I hope you can take this with grace and salt” –

    cl, I’m not upset with you, nor anything you have posted (at least from what I have read).

    That is why all of us are here – to defend and contend for Christ.

    Actually, I’m just a visitor, but this crew has done a great job of honoring the Lord through their apologetics work.

    In Jesus,

    – Jeff H

  38. cl says:

    I’m not interested in biblical exposition right now. Besides my questions to DP, my point was to you was, you didn’t know if I was “in the church” or not, so why did you simply judge me by assuming I was “libeling God” as you put it?

    You said, “I did not accuse you of making any intentionally disparaging remarks regarding the Bible here.”

    I didn’t say you did, did I? I said you judged me when you assumed I was libeling God. By your own definition you threw at me, you imply that my comment was “a written defamation” that “damaged [God's] character.” It wasn’t. I understand that the Bible encourages

    You said, “I suggest you read about Nicodemus’ encounter with Jesus (The Book of John, chapter 3)”

    Hey, thanks for assuming I haven’t. Isn’t that judgment, again?

    You said, “Nevertheless, you also have several site awards on your page from atheists. You cannot straddle the fence.”

    Hey, speaking of libel. Jeff, please… stop and think for a second, here: first of all, I don’t have “several site awards on [my] page from atheists” – I have one. Secondly, how does the fact that an atheist derived inspiration from my writing and felt like rewarding it lead you to conclude I’m “straddling the fence?” Isn’t that judgment, again? You don’t even know me, yet here you are libeling me by publicly claiming I’m “straddling the fence.” Honestly. Think about that, and ask yourself if I don’t have a point there.

    You said, “..I pray that you WOULD be soundly saved.”

    That’s nice and all, but I would pray that you wouldn’t make rush judgments about people you’ve never even spent five minutes talking to, and that you would be able to realize when you do that which you criticize others for (libel).

    Anyways. I spoke my peace, and I’m done with it.

  39. cl,

    To try and answer your questions –

    1) I banned PhillyChief’s last comment because it did not add to the conversation and was clearly a blatant attempt to spread what he believes and not designed to gain an understanding of what we believe.

    2) I said that people are willing to judge Garrido as a non-Christian, but will be no better off than him. This is because ALL of our sins are an affront to God. My point is that people judge Garrido as a hideous monster but do not consider that their own sins which separate them from a holy, righteous God make them no better a person than Garrido is.

    3) My judgment of Garrido as a non-Christian is because of the evidence he portrays of having the evil one (Satan) as his father. He is not one of God’s children because he would show forth works meet for repentance.

    4) My judgment is based on the same judgment I fell under until the Lord Jesus Christ graciously and mercifully placed His love upon me and brought me to repentance.

    I hope that answers your questions. If not, feel free to clarify.

    The Desert Pastor

  40. Jeff H says:

    cl,

    I’m sorry, but it sounds – again – like you are kinda straining at gnats.

    “I don’t have ‘several site awards on [my] page from atheists’ – I have one.”

    I saw two…

    “Secondly, how does the fact that an atheist derived inspiration from my writing and felt like rewarding it lead you to conclude I’m ‘straddling the fence?’”

    If I were to own a Christian blog that received awards from atheists (or mormons, JWs, Buddhists, et al.) I would respectfully decline them. Think about it: what kind of testimony for a Christian would that be to the world?

    “Isn’t that judgment, again? You don’t even know me, yet here you are libeling me by publicly claiming I’m “straddling the fence.” Honestly. Think about that, and ask yourself if I don’t have a point there.”

    There is no such thing as an undercover Christian… yet you still don’t declare yourself either way…

    Christians LOVE talking about Christ, about BEING Christians, about how He saved them (testimony), how He is their personal Savior, and so on.

    Are you a Christian?

    If so, then your fruits are mixed at best. Your tone certainly isn’t Christian (look at your blog and then read the Book of James); neither is your testimony (or lack thereof) Christian – Are you ashamed of the Gospel? (see Romans 1:16). Read the Book of Galatians on spiritual fruit.

    Are you NOT a Christian?

    If not, then we have presented you with the Gospel… No judgment, just a statement of fact – telling you about Jesus.

    Having read the comments from others that you are ‘advertising’ on your blog site, it sounds like you enjoy splitting hairs. Some of the comments indicate that’s about ALL you like to do.

    You may think that your ‘judging’ smokescreen is new and clever… it isn’t. Just do a search on this and other Christian sites.

    You wrote: “Anyways. I spoke my peace, and I’m done with it.”

    I would only ask that you follow the Lord’s command, as written by the Apostle Paul:

    “Test yourself to see if you are in the faith; examine yourself! Or do you not recognize this about yourself, that Jesus Christ is in you — unless indeed you fail the test?” (2 Corinthians 13:5)

    I’d like to meet you in Heaven.
    :)

    In Jesus,

    – Jeff H

  41. cl says:

    Well, I was done with it…

    DP,

    Regarding your 1 – don’t all comments add to the conversation? Aren’t all of us are “spreading what we believe” whenever we talk, whether we’re aware of it or not? Whether or not Philly is making an honest effort to understand you folks, I don’t know, but what I do know is that I see little effort on behalf of you folks to understand Philly and myself. Allow me to explain a bit more in detail..

    Regarding your 2, you say, “I said that people are willing to judge Garrido as a non-Christian, but will be no better off than him. This is because ALL of our sins are an affront to God. My point is that people judge Garrido as a hideous monster but do not consider that their own sins which separate them from a holy, righteous God make them no better a person than Garrido is.”

    My point is, why are you judging Garrido? All you or anyone else has to say is that kidnapping and whatever else Garrido is charged with are not consistent with what we’d expect from somebody who’d experienced genuine metanoia. Secondly, per what you said above – which I can agree with – aren’t your sins just as much an affront to God as Garrido’s?

    Regarding your 3, you said, “My judgment of Garrido as a non-Christian is because of the evidence he portrays of having the evil one (Satan) as his father. He is not one of God’s children because he would show forth works meet for repentance.”

    Does that make your judgment okay? Again, why judge Garrido, the man? Why not just humbly remember like Jay Winguard (second comment on this thread) that “there is still hope for this man” and just focus on pointing out that the actions are unbiblical? Neither you nor me nor anyone knows Garrido’s true spiritual state, and to pretend otherwise might just be judgment.

    As far as your 4, I couldn’t quite figure out exactly what you were getting at.

    Lastly, no hard feelings here. We’re all adults. I’m not mad at you or anyone. Just speaking my mind.

    Jeff H,

    I saw two…

    What you call “straining at gnats” was intended to illustrate the lassitude with which you obviously viewed my blog. It suggests that you’re just looking at things quickly, perhaps even judging by outward appearance, if I might.

    If I were to own a Christian blog that received awards from atheists (or mormons, JWs, Buddhists, et al.) I would respectfully decline them. Think about it: what kind of testimony for a Christian would that be to the world?

    Jesus let a prostitute anoint Him with oil, and here you are judging me because an atheist appreciated my writing and felt to compliment it? Do you think atheists are morally inferior to prostitutes or something? Now that you bring it up, I think it could be a great testimony to the world, one that could show that “Jews can get along with Gentiles,” to use a metaphor you should obviously understand.

    ..you still don’t declare yourself either way…

    Correct; for purposes of online debate, I generally do not discuss my own personal religious beliefs. I’ve explained why here. What I’d like you to explain is why I’m getting the feeling that you have some degree of judgment against me in your heart. You’ve made quite a few unsubstantiated assumptions about me here, and you still haven’t squarely faced my assertions about them.

    Your tone certainly isn’t Christian (look at your blog and then read the Book of James); neither is your testimony (or lack thereof)

    My tone? Please explain. What about my blog, and my tone, and my testimony or lack thereof is so “un-Christian” to you, Jeff? Moreover, is any of this “proper Christian tone” for you:

    “Read ALL of Matthew chapter 7 to get the context, not just steal one word OUT of context to libel God.” (Jeff H)

    “Mr. Garrido’s fruit is ROTTEN” (Jeff H)

    “Mr Garrido is a religious fraud.” (DP)

    “I have recognized for awhile that you are just trolling here and as the saying goes – “There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see!” (DP to Philly)

    I really don’t want to have this argument with you be what I’m remembered for here. You apparently can’t or won’t entertain the idea that you’ve been judgmental at all. You’ve made claims about my blog, my tone and my testimony; why not spare others the burden? Of course my life is not a 100% spitting image of Christ’s. Is yours? Now, go ahead and point out to me all the places where you think I’m “un-Christian.”

  42. cl,

    There is no question on my part that we have called Garrido and others to judgment, if you will. I never denied that we are not judging others. However, the fact is this. The Bible makes it clear what the ground rules are in regards to judging another. If their actions do not line up with Scripture, and there is no repentance, and no turning from sin – there is NO LIFE in that individual. The Bible allows believers to make that call when necessary.

    Must get to work, but will elaborate further at another time.

    The Desert Pastor

  43. Jeff H says:

    cl,

    “Correct; for purposes of online debate, I generally do not discuss my own personal religious beliefs.”

    Enough said.

  44. cl says:

    Pastor,

    You said, “I never denied that we are not judging others.”

    Well, you didn’t really address it either, until now, so it was difficult for me to tell if you were just being disingenuous, or for some other reason did not want to address that issue..

    You continue, “…the fact is this. The Bible makes it clear what the ground rules are in regards to judging another.”

    I agree. Are you referring to Matthew 7 as Jeff H was? If so, I agree that when the actions are not congruent with the gospel, we have cause for concern. Does that mean we get to malign individual people, though?

    You say, “The Bible allows believers to make that call when necessary.”

    Really? Might I ask where? When I read the Bible, I hear Jesus condemning those who’d pick up the first stone. What did you have in mind here?

    Jeff H,

    Enough said.

    Hey, perfect way to avoid taking any responsibility – just continue to judge me. No offense, but that’s sad – and “Christians” wonder why people after God’s own heart are leaving the gospel in droves.

  45. Jeff H says:

    cl,

    You wrote: “Hey, perfect way to avoid taking any responsibility – just continue to judge me. No offense, but that’s sad – and “Christians” wonder why people after God’s own heart are leaving the gospel in droves.”

    Wow! You are, indeed, the master of hyperbole! I seem to have hit a nerve; sorry.
    :)

    I think that you like to carry quite a big brush in an attempt to paint roughshod over others.

    I’m sorry to see the anger that is coming through in your posts here. I never meant to offend you, but the preaching of the Cross brings that reaction quite often.

    The Bible says it is an offense to those who are perishing… I hope that’s not you.

    As I wrote earlier: “There is no such thing as an undercover Christian… Christians LOVE talking about Christ, about BEING Christians, about how He saved them (testimony), how He is their personal Savior, and so on.”

    You don’t seem to want to talk about Jesus at all. You just seem to want to low at the sheep.

    Tell me about your Salvation story… What is your testimony? I’d love for you to share it with me (us).

    That being said, I and others have attempted to reason with through Scripture.

    Your response was: “I’m not interested in biblical exposition right now.”

    Hmmmm. You don’t want to talk about Jesus… or the Bible… or salvation.

    But, you seem VERY concerned about judgment.

    Interesting.

    Well, in the mean time, take a look at Pilgrim’s Rules of Engagement. I think number 8 probably hits home:

    8). If you can’t leave a comment without judging us for judging others then please find another blog to comment on that allows you to blatantly twist Scripture while you judge them.

    You wrote: “No offense”

    You could not possibly offend me.

    I still would like to meet you in heaven!

    In Jesus,

    – Jeff H
    ____________________________________________________________________________
    BTW, cl,

    When you wrote: “leaving the gospel in droves” –

    I have no idea what that means.

    How does one leave “Good News”?

    In Christ,

    – Jeff H

  46. I also was wondering how true believers (people after God’s own heart) could leave the gospel. Hmmmmmm… NOT POSSIBLE! The Holy Spirit is the one that keeps a believer…we don’t keep ourselves!

    Also, cl seems to be doing some of Rule 10 and Rule 5! Maybe he should be booted!

  47. Jeff H says:

    Mrs. DP,

    Well said!

    In fact, regarding cl’s ‘boot-ability’, Rule 6 applies:

    “6). We will not tolerate your intolerance of our intolerance.”

    cl,

    For your benefit, I will also list Rules 5 and 10 below:

    “5). If you leave comments under the guise of being a fellow Christian, yet you consistently espouse ideas antithetical to the foundational doctrines of the Christian faith, expect that your comments in particular to be moderated much more carefully. It usually takes just one comment from false teachers for our discernment meters to register something is wrong. We will not provide a platform for you to spread your “Hath God said” seeds of doubt and outright damnable heresies but instead, you will be stripped of the sheep’s cloak you’ve disguised yourself in and you will be driven from the flock like the wolf you are.”

    “10). If your comment contains any of the following, (combination of the following or variation of the following) remarks:

    “Judge not!”

    “You’re a Pharisee.”

    “You’re Self-Righteous.”

    “Touch not God’s anointed.”

    Then there’s a good chance your comment will not see the light of day. Although we are not averse to disagreement and debate, we do not have the time to deal with such baseless, Biblically illiterate, shallow platitudes and twisting of Scripture. It’s like calling the proponent of legal immigration a “racist” without ever intellectually discussing the matter. It slyly changes the focus of the debate from the issue itself and places it onto your opponent’s character. This sinisterly clever polarization of your opponent puts him on the defense and you think you’ve won the debate. We seriously do not have the time to play these games. Your argument should be the persuasive element to the debate, not your Orwellian-style doublespeak.”

    So there you have it, cl.

    2 Corinthians 6:2 declares that today is the day of salvation:

    “For he says,

    ‘In a favorable time I listened to you,
    and in a day of salvation I have helped you.’

    Behold, now is the favorable time; behold, now is the day of salvation.”

    Make your election sure, cl.

    In Him,

    – Jeff H

  48. John E. says:

    cl – you recently stated that atheists were as “bad” as Christians when it came to entertaining free-thought arguments. Might I ask what you meant, exactly, and how would you say that your supposed experiences of that compare to here?

    Also, I too would be fascinated to hear your “testimony” or whatever you might choose to call it. Quite honestly, if we are to have these types of discussion, it’s only fair that everyone knows where everyone else stands. At least I **know** exactly what Jeff H. believes.

  49. cl says:

    Jeff H,

    I’m not angry. I’m not offended. I’m honestly just curious to see if you can’t see even a grain of truth in anything I’ve said. I read the “rules of engagement” after my first and second comments here. Since folks seem to be mentioning the rules all of a sudden, note that although Philly’s question was deleted, as was SI’s support of Philly’s question – Gideon’s disparaging remark against Philly was allowed to remain published – despite the fact that “rule of engagement” number 5 states that “demeaning” or “insulting” comments will not be tolerated. The message I’m getting is that demeaning or insulting comments are tolerated – when made against atheists. So let’s stop talking about the “rules of engagement.”

    Really, I’m done. You don’t think you erred at all, there’s nothing I can do. “It’s in God’s hands now,” as the saying goes.

    Pastor’s Wife,

    Please. I’ve not used any of the phrases from “Rule #10,” nor am I hear “under the guise” of anything, but if you folks simply want to silence those who don’t lull along in thoughtless agreement, I can’t stop you. Honestly – of course nobody should condone Garrido’s behavior – but what is any of this that we call Christianity if we’re sitting here calling Garrido – the man – names? What is any of this if I’m judged as “straddling the fence” because my blog received an award from an atheist and I dared to publish it? Apparently, folks are okay with that. I respectfully disagree, as I still have not heard a good explanation for how the Bible permits that sort of reasoning.

  50. Bob says:

    Very interesting. I found out a few things about cl and Phillychief.
    They are not stupid. They are not on an even base with each other also. Check out their sites. I have learned a few things and have made some observations. Knowing that God is a fair judge and has given us minds to evaluate certain things I share that cl does seem to ride the fence. cl argues a lot of points.
    cl seems to be an agnostic. “Ride the fence” and actually battle with everyone. Phillychief is sharp. He makes us think and try to think like an atheist. But guess what ? That is not his major
    malfunction. He likes to argue and be a king of writ, of language and of contention. These folks and others are looking for attention and attempting to prove their points and receive some recognition for their writing and site work. If it wasn’t Christianity these folks would be arguing politics. Funny that other religions are often overlooked. So…pick on the truth that
    Jesus Christ has come in the flesh…deny that and it is the spirit of anti-christ. Now,some do speak of some other issues
    from time to time. I have to say that politics do come up a little. Visits to most atheist’s sites reveal a far left-liberal view point. Granted people are entitled to their opinion and I am friends with liberals and conservatives. I have helped people the last 25 years as a pastor and executive director with many
    types of assistance from food to rent and counsel. I have married people,buried people, befriended people. Some were receptive to the Gospel and some not. You hope and pray that they look to Christ for salvation , well before you see that coffin closed. Many times I had to witness the closing of the coffin as a witness along with the funeral director.

    Atheists do run together to different sites and many do have a plan to disrupt religious freedom and that of the Christian. I have been told by an atheist that her plan was to cause doubt and pull away as many from the faith as possible. Interesting that Christians have before them this issue. Is it possible for a born-again Christian to fall away from God at the working of any body including seducing spirits ? You would have different points of view depending upon a Calvinistic view or Arminian.

    One final point. I feel both atheists and agnostics are people without Christ. All need the salvation through Jesus and his free gift paid for by His own blood. Atheists think they know that there is no God. Agnostics think that there may be a God. Christians know there is a God and His Name is Yeshua-Jesus.

    Too bad we could not sit down face to face. Imagine having two hours together with coffee and donuts or bagels. We could talk about many things and realise that we could gain from one anothers company . We would have to let Phillychief have the last comment. I would eat the last donut.

  51. Jeff H says:

    cl,

    You wrote:

    “I’m done with it.”

    “Well, I was done with it…”

    “Really, I’m done.”

    No one has asked you to leave yet as far as I know. The concerns expressed by us here pertained to your use of the word “judge” in various forms to the exclusion of all else.

    When we patiently explained to you the Scriptural references regarding biblical judgment, you were not interested.

    Your response was: “I’m not interested in biblical exposition right now.”

    I’m sorry that you can’t seem to embrace what God says on the subject.

    You also ignored the questions we asked you.

    Seriously, if you are so concerned about judgment, don’t complain to us, and don’t complain about us to your atheist friends on your blog, take it up with the One with Whom we have to do.

    Even now He waits with the invitation to salvation! You can be completely spared from the Judgment of the unsaved that is to come… and have the assurance of eternal life.

    Maranatha!

    – Jeff

    ___________________________________________________________________________________
    Hi Bob,

    Thank you very much for your insights!

    You are right in that we both know that the Lord is not willing that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance.

    You wrote: “I would eat the last donut.”

    Not if I get it first!

    Blessings,

    Jeff H

  52. DP’s Wife: “I also was wondering how true believers (people after God’s own heart) could leave the gospel. Hmmmmmm… NOT POSSIBLE! The Holy Spirit is the one that keeps a believer…we don’t keep ourselves!”

    I want to say “Amen!” to that. There is a strange thought circulating about, by which it is sometimes said that the salvation of the Lord, which comes by His grace through faith, can be lost, stolen, or rejected. In response to this strange thought, there is probably a nicer word than “heresy,” but I can’t think of it.

    Let those of us who are born again, the elect of God according to His grace and mercy, remember that we did not save ourselves, and we are utterly incapable of “keeping ourselves saved.” Many modern translations of the Bible get a key phrase in Philippians 3:9 wrong. They say that righteousness is “through faith ‘in’ Christ.” The King James (not the New King James) Version hits the nail right on the head when it says that, “And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith ‘of’ Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:”

    Today, as I type this, I am found in Jesus Christ. I am righteous in the sight of God only because the righteousness of His dear Son has been imputed to me. The eternal continuance of this gift of righteousness is not because of my great faith. It is because of the wondrous, magnificent, awe-inspiring, unchanging, never-ending faith of Christ Himself.

  53. Exactly! I know I can’t keep myself because I know how I operate. My heart is wicked before God and, except for the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ, I would be totally undone and on my way to hell. It is the Holy Spirit that seals us (as true believers) unto the day of redemption so no one can take the credit for us going to heaven. Yes, we are in agreement and I know that I can only thank the Lord for what He has done as I did absolutely nothing to deserve it! Praise the Lord for HIS goodness towards the children of men!

    Amen and amen!

  54. Jeff H says:

    I’ll add my AMEN to that!

    If ‘holding onto salvation’ required ANYTHING of me, I’d be lost for sure!

    Thank you Lord Jesus for the elect… for knowing You would save me before You had even created me.

    Most of all I am thankful to Lord Jesus for saving me IN SPITE of my wretchedness and complete unworthiness.

    In Him,

    – Jeff H

  55. Bob says:

    I would agree that when one is born-again that they cannot lose salvation. The Holy Spirit seals us unto that day when we take our last breath. I think some problem lies in the fact that
    some think they are saved and that they are not. I remember what Jerry Falwell said years ago that we are fruit inspectors.
    That is not too say that we were judging unfairly and being harsh. In ministry we attempt to be honest with people and help and disciple with humility. In this I am referring to people who claim to be Christians . If no Christian fruit is visible and someone continues in sin how does that measure up to being born-again and a true disciple of Jesus Christ ? Christ said that some will call him Lord , Lord but he will say I never knew you.
    Never knew you would mean NEVER. Not ,I was saved and then slowly lost my salvation but never had it at all.

    My statement about a born-again person losing salvation stirred some thought about the chaplain. She told me that she was genuine in her faith but then over some time of anguish and searching that she realised that there was no God. My thought here was that she thought she was a Christian (and was a minister) but determined that what she believed in the past was an illusion and falsehood. I asked her if she was saved in the first place at all or did she backslide ( she was Wesleyan-Arminian ) and she was very upset with me.I could sense her reflection here and still holding on to old Wesleyan ways. Makes you wonder. I feel sorry for people that are blinded without Christ in their lives.

    Do not forget to pray for these folks. They need the Lord like everyone else. Also pray for protection and wisdom for yourselves because the evil one is moving about in strange ways in these last days.

    One more thing. Watch out for some of the sites you visit. Watch out and protect your E-Mail address. I had someone phishing and attempting to get my password and info. Also some of these atheist bloggers may use your E-Mail address and seek out info about you and maybe use it to cause some grief. I have already seen some type of threat.

    Blessings

  56. cl says:

    My “leaving the gospel in droves” comment was not meant to incite theology class; I was simply saying that certain attitudes drive people away from Christianity. I have experienced some of these attitudes right here, in this thread. All I ask is that somebody can look at it and say, “Hmmm… maybe cl’s right; maybe I did come across as judgmental.” Yet, strong resistance there is.

    John E.,

    Sorry I missed your comment to me. You asked, “cl – you recently stated that atheists were as “bad” as Christians when it came to entertaining free-thought arguments. Might I ask what you meant, exactly, and how would you say that your supposed experiences of that compare to here?”

    Can you show me the comment of mine you’re alluding to here? That would help me better answer your question.

    You said, “..if we are to have these types of discussion, it’s only fair that everyone knows where everyone else stands.”

    Of course, and with the exception of a single request, I’ve told you exactly where I stand every time you’ve asked. I also told you that if we could get to a level where you’re not insulting me anymore, then I might be willing to share my religious beliefs with you. But when you’re going off and writing truly hurtful things both to and about me, I just don’t see the point. I struggle to understand what’s so hard to understand about this. Also, the special pleading concerns me: why do you allow yourself to define yourself by what you disbelieve, yet criticize me for doing the same? You know where I stand: I’m not an atheist.

    You said, “At least I **know** exactly what Jeff H. believes.”

    While you could surely infer some things correctly, I’m willing to bet you don’t. This type of false confidence leads to all sorts of assumptions.

    Jeff H,

    You said, “When we patiently explained to you the Scriptural references regarding biblical judgment, you were not interested.”

    When I told you I wasn’t interested in exegesis, it was because I wanted to focus on what I felt (and still feel) was a judgmental attitude coming from yourself. I am very interested in the biblical verses that suggest it is okay to for believers to judge others and make negative statements about individuals. To my knowledge, DP never came back and provided said verse(s). Matthew 7, which you provided, isn’t what I’m looking for. I don’t think Matthew 7 gives you or anyone the right to prejudge me or anyone else.

    You say, “I’m sorry that you can’t seem to embrace what God says on the subject.”

    No, I can’t seem to embrace what you say God says on the subject. There’s a difference. Still, no big deal. I’ve already accepted that I’m not going to be able to change your opinion, and that you don’t think you did anything “un-Christian.” It’s out of my hands.

    Bob,

    You said, “Knowing that God is a fair judge and has given us minds to evaluate certain things I share that cl does seem to ride the fence. cl argues a lot of points. cl seems to be an agnostic. “Ride the fence” and actually battle with everyone.”

    I can’t say I agree with all of that. Am I agnostic? Of course, because I’m honest: I don’t know God exists; I sure do believe it. Does that mean I “ride the fence” as you say? I don’t think so at all, and I don’t think you or any other people need to be making judgments in that area. As far as “battle with everyone,” when it comes to argumentation, I take pride in not taking sides, and that’s one of the reasons I don’t label myself on my blog. I think you should spend more time reading me, should the Spirit lead. It will help you make an informed judgment.

  57. cl,

    I did present a biblical explanation in regards to judgment and discipline but you have chosen to ignore this. Jeff H. is correct in that you appear to be not interested possibly because it does not line up with your opinion of a holy, righteous God.

    The Desert Pastor

  58. Bob says:

    cl would be happy if all Christians would all clump together like Custer and his men and let all the indians ( American Natives), run you over and say “Please don’t hurt us”. People take the verse about judging out of context. Most people make judgements everyday. It focuses ,as you read the whole part of judgement in context, on the fact that the judgement that you practice is the type that you will receive. If I judge fairly then I will be judged fairly. If I judge like a tyrant and unfairly then I will be judged in the same manner. That does not void any judging from God because He is the final judge in all things.
    Actually life is all about judgement . We all do it everyday. Decisions , choices, comments. I think even cl does that.
    Here is a biggy. Anyone without the forgiveness of sin through Jesus Christ the Son ,is condemned. Am I condemning ? Am I judging ? The Bible says this. I believe it is the truth. If I share facts from the Bible and cl says I am judging than cl will have to realise that I am just the messenger and in agreement with the message. Even if I disagreed , the Bible still is truth.
    As has been stated cl has been told about judgement. What cl does not realise is the fact that not taking sides is like riding the fence. You think that God may exist. Not enough. You are as lost as an atheist without Christ. This is what the Bible teaches.
    Another biggy. If you do not look at the Bible as the Word of God then just say so . That ends it right there.

    I have read some of what you have written. It looks like someone that is trying to ride the fence cl.

    Thanks for informing me. The Spirit of God is speaking. Are you listening ? The Spirit of Christ will not differ from what is written in the Bible. Have you seriously prayed and asked God to open your spirit and mind? Have you seriously given Christ an honest try? When someone is born-again they know that they know and the Spirit has the witness unto us that we are His. The Christian desires to share Christ and the Word. So far
    that is not you. Too bad.

  59. Jeff H says:

    Hi cl,

    Welcome back!

    Your wrote: “My “leaving the gospel in droves” comment was not meant to incite theology class; I was simply saying that certain attitudes drive people away from Christianity.”

    Your phraseology is important in that it reveals a fundamental ignorance of the biblical theology of salvation and the Church.

    You wrote: “You say, “I’m sorry that you can’t seem to embrace what God says on the subject.”

    “No, I can’t seem to embrace what you say God says on the subject. There’s a difference.”

    No, you are wrong again! I quoted Scripture. Those were not my Words, but the Lord’s.

    You wrote: “I am very interested in the biblical verses that suggest it is okay to for believers to judge others…”

    It may be difficult for you to understand Scripture, because it is spiritually discerned. Again, follow Paul’s admonition to examine yourself. Are you saved? You sure?

    You wrote: “It’s out of my hands.”

    It was never in them… :)

    Jesus is Lord!

    – Jeff H

  60. cl says:

    DP,

    On September 3, 2009 at 8:22 pm, you told me, “The Bible makes it clear what the ground rules are in regards to judging another. If their actions do not line up with Scripture, and there is no repentance, and no turning from sin – there is NO LIFE in that individual. The Bible allows believers to make that call when necessary. Must get to work, but will elaborate further at another time.”

    Pastor, you never came back to elaborate like you said you would, so how is it fair to return without said elaboration and then claim that you “did present a biblical explanation in regards to judgment and discipline” that I chose to ignore? You didn’t even keep your word to me. Was “your work” more important?

    Bob,

    You said, “cl would be happy if all Christians would all clump together like Custer and his men and let all the indians ( American Natives), run you over and say “Please don’t hurt us”.”

    Bob, how does making unfounded assumptions about me glorify God? I find it rude. As for the meat of the discussion (about judgment), please don’t misunderstand or misrepresent what I’m saying: yes, we all make judgments every day. Yes, part of Matthew 7 conveys the point that as we judge, so will we be judged. I had a single point in making my first comment here: I felt DP went too far in his judgment of Garrido, and it put me off. Then Jeff H. jumped in, and I felt he had no reason to make some of the comments he made about me.

    You said, “As has been stated cl has been told about judgement. What cl does not realise is the fact that not taking sides is like riding the fence. You think that God may exist. Not enough. You are as lost as an atheist without Christ. This is what the Bible teaches.”

    How about not making assumptions about people, Bob? I want to tear my shirt right now. That I don’t parade myself as a Christian blogger like you guys does not mean I’m riding the fence about anything. I never said, “I think God may exist;” I said, “I don’t know God exists, but I sure do believe God exists.” Please, slow down and actually read the people you criticize.

    You said, “The Christian desires to share Christ and the Word. So far that is not you. Too bad.”

    How do you know what I was doing last year, last week, or even this morning? Just as Jesus warned against, you’re making judgments based on mere appearance. If you want to get to know me, visit my blog. Drop me an email. Don’t sit here and speak on what you don’t know. Christ also desires that Christians would evangelize in love and tolerance, and not judge others on mere outward appearances.

    Jeff H.

    Please, try to find some common ground with me here.

    You said, “Your phraseology is important in that it reveals a fundamental ignorance of the biblical theology of salvation and the Church.”

    Why assume I’m ignorant when you could have just asked in grace and salt? Does that glorify God? Did you understand what I said? That people are leaving Christianity in droves for some of the very same attitudes displayed here? Do you agree with that or not?

    You said, “No, you are wrong again! I quoted Scripture. Those were not my Words, but the Lord’s.”

    Jeff, I understand that. Do you understand that each person also has to interpret the Bible? What I’m disagreeing with is the conclusion you’ve taken from Matthew 7 – which is apparently that it’s okay to make judgments about people’s spiritual state when you haven’t even spent more than five minutes getting to know them. You’re just making judgment about me based on mere appearance – what you saw and perceived in a very short period of reading my blog.

    You said, “It may be difficult for you to understand Scripture, because it is spiritually discerned.”

    Right, because I’m just an unsaved fence-rider. Take care, Jeff H., and hopefully one day a believer whom you actually respect can get through to you.

  61. cl,

    My apologies. I looked back and noticed that I had overlooked a reply to you. I work a large number of hours in two different jobs and my work schedule is very wearing on the body of an old man! LOL I will get back to you as quickly as possible.

    The Desert Pastor

  62. Jeff H says:

    cl,

    You wrote: “Please, try to find some common ground with me here.”

    Friend, if you have rejected the free offer of salvation from Jesus Christ, the we REALLY have NOTHING in common… I’m sorry for you.

    If you HAVE received Christ through repentance and faith in Jesus ALONE, then we have EVERYTHING in common.

    From the NUMEROUS posts I (and others) have made here in response to your lack of testimony (no interest in Scripture, no interest in Jesus, no interest in salvation!), as well as your erroneous interpretations of Scripture, you have shown a COMPLETE lack of spiritual fruit consistent with being born again.

    cl, if you are not born again, the Bible is CLEAR, you are a child of wrath… a child of the Devil (not my words, it’s the Word of God).

    I and other Christians here have made that abundantly clear to you. Being in denial will not keep you out of Hell. You know what’s required.

    Are you willing to stop playing games and respond to Christ?

    For eternity’s sake, it will not make any difference that you squandered your life engaged in clever repartee concerning “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin…”

    The only one you’re impressing in such an endeavor is yourself; and this, only for a season. You will then have an eternity to truly realize Who it was you turned your back on.

    Now, perhaps, I may be in danger of “casting pearls before swine.” So, the Gospel is (still) in your court.

    And, friend, the GOSPEL cannot be left.

    “…believer whom you actually respect”

    Careful, cl, the DEMONS believe… and tremble.

    Your lack of understanding of Christianity (as one who is actually saved) and of Scripture peppers virtually each of your posts. This is obvious to every born again Christian here, and we’ve tried to tell you so.

    Remember, though, it’s not too late! You can receive Christ’s forgiveness today and inherit eternal life!!

    Through the Son, you could have everything worth having!!!

    In Jesus,

    – Jeff H

    (Are you in Jesus too, cl?)

    P.S. cl, you wrote that a cheap watch you had when you were a kid broke one day. Then you prayed for God to fix it (to show you that He really exists), and when He didn’t respond to your pharisaical (or doubting Thomas) ‘show me and I’ll believe’ request… you stated that you began a quest to find out about God.

    The God of the Bible tells you everything you need to know about Him in His precious Word… and He states it clearly.

  63. Bob says:

    cl,

    I told you before that I have been to your blog and read much of what you have written. You try and split hairs and ride the fence. Say what you will . I am sometimes blunt. I am not intentionally attempting to bring anger. If you think I am judgemental so be it . I do not think that you will ever accept my explanation or that of anyone about judgement and opinions and discipline from God or any other explanation in that arena. When someone shares from the Bible you cry “But you do not know me”. “Spend some time on my blog “. Your writing gives you away. One of your problems is that you have not made a committment to Christ . Have you ? Huh ? Have you ? Are you a Christian ? You claim to be an agnostic. If you want to call what you are something else and make it sound better, do what you like. The Biblical teaching on salvation shows that a change of heart takes place and a person is a new creation. Now what is the result of that? Plain truth…
    Without Christ as your Savior and the fruits of the Spirit being evident, their is no new life. No relationship. No eternal life.
    If that is what you choose that is up to you ,but guess what comes next? It is appointed for mankind to die and then comes the “judgement”. What God has shared in His Word and how he doles His judgement to the lost without His forgiveness is God judging, not me. Because I share this does not mean I am judging you. I could lie and make up a bunch of things like ,” as long as you are good to your fellowman and do not offend them everything will be ok and you will inherit eternal life”. Ring-aling-aling. Wrong. That is not what scripture says. The actual meaning of the word believe means to trust and obey. You believe ? You trust and obey Christ ? How?
    Where is your fruit? Not on your blog. not by what you have written to anyone here.

    You can say I am rude and that I do not glorify God. Why? Because I am honest and share what the Bible states. You do not like that. It offends you. That is what the Gospel and the Word will do when someone will deny the Word or ride the fence.

    Oh yes…love and tolerance. A true Christian would not purposely mislead and continue talking in circles about their spiritual life. You are not a Christian by your own denial.
    So what is your major mal-function ? You are playing a game . Now if I say that is only my opinion , are those the words you want to hear so it will not be judging?
    For you are there any absolutes ?

    Why don’t you glorify God and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and shut down your blog of doubt and confusion? Does that offend you ? It probably will and I am not trying to.

    What some folks do from time to time is to be critical and judgemental to the point that they think they make the other person look like they have no care or love at all and so they are not Christians. Where is the love? Where is the grace? Where is the understanding? But the approach you take can look that way. I would say that people here have given you much of their time and patience. Some of the same things are discussed over and over but explained in different words by different individuals. If you disagree than let it go. Let it go cl.
    Move on. If you do not accept the Bible as truth and as God’s Word so be it. That is your choice. To continue living in doubt
    and no absolute in this life can be a serious , painful experience and a lack of peace. Repentance would radically alter your life.
    Your choice.

  64. Jeff H says:

    cl,

    You wrote: “Did you understand what I said? That people are leaving Christianity in droves for some of the very same attitudes displayed here? Do you agree with that or not?”

    Let me ask you a question: If I step out of my parent’s house, do I stop being my dad’s son?

    cl, if you can comprehend this analogy, you are one step closer to understanding what it means to be a Christian.

    You have attempted to withstand God’s Truth, given through godly Christians quoting Scripture. Do you think you alone are right and that God’s Word is wrong?

    I am reminded of a passage in the Book of Job, where Job is (sarcastically) rebuking one of his “friends”. His “friend” is a “know-it-all”, but actually brings darkened counsel, as God later declares.

    Job 12:1-2

    “1 Then Job replied:
    2 “Doubtless you are the people,
    and wisdom will die with you!”

    (emphasis mine)

    Again, Do you think you alone are right? Or, is God right?

    We are holding up a mirror (the Bible) to you and you accuse us of judging you. If you don’t like what you see, you are – again – one step closer to understanding what it means to be a Christian.
    :)

    – Jeff H, an adopted son of God through Christ Jesus

  65. cl says:

    DP,</b.

    Thank you for that; I understand that we're all busy, and I'll check back for your response.

    Bob,

    You said, “One of your problems is that you have not made a committment to Christ… So what is your major mal-function ? You are playing a game… Why don’t you glorify God and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and shut down your blog of doubt and confusion?”

    Ouch. You’re taking way too much liberty here, Bob. Please stop saying such malicious things about me that you can’t possibly know. You are jumping to conclusions that are so far off the truth I couldn’t even finish reading your comment. I trust that you’ll see the truth about me one day.

    Jeff H.,

    You’re not even responding to the argument I’m making. Again, you’re still trying to argue theology, when the extent of the point I was making was that people are leaving church in droves precisely because of intolerant and judgmental behavior coming from God’s own.

    Do you agree that people are leaving church in droves precisely because of intolerant and judgmental behavior coming from God’s own? Or not? Because I’m willing to bet you have better things to do with your time than try to beat an understanding of the Bible into my head – that I already share.

    As for the “know-it-all” remark, I consider myself to know next to nothing, and I found the remark itself ironic.

  66. Bob says:

    Jeff H,

    Round and round we go with cl. There are other issues here.
    cl on the other sites always attempt to have the last word.
    Of course we know that God has the last word. We could discuss politics or the stock market and cl will demand the preeminence and the last word. He is a “thinker and debater”.
    I saw this “look at me” type of stuff on wall street years ago as people debated about religion and politics.

    cl has said that I do not know him. Not too much. He likes to drink beer. I see enough of his writing to know that he claims to be agnostic which is one pay grade higher than an atheist.
    That is enough for me. He has made a poor choice.

    Thanks for this site. I know that you will address cl on other issues because he is not through.

    Blessings.

  67. Jeff H says:

    Hi Bob,

    Thanks for your post.

    You wrote: “he claims to be agnostic” and “He is a … ‘debater’”.

    Yup. I kind of got the same impressions that you did when I looked over cl’s site.

    That’s also why I made the comment about myself being at risk of “casting pearls before swine.”

    I will continue to keep cl in prayer.

    You wrote: “cl will demand the preeminence and the last word.”

    He’s more than welcome to the last word – or – words – or posts, or whatever he wants. I just want him to be saved. He’s heard the Gospel, so perhaps the Holy Spirit will change his heart.

    As you and I both know, Bob, salvation is not just some ‘academic exercise’, it is a precious gift from the Lord.

    I pray that the Lamb will receive the full reward for His suffering.

    Thanks again, Bob, and blessings,

    – Jeff H

  68. Jeff H says:

    Bob wrote: “Thanks for this site. I know that you will address cl on other issues because he is not through.”

    Bob, I’m just a visitor here to this site. This blog belongs to Pilgrim!

    We should continue to keep Pilgrim and the other staff here in prayer, to keep contending and defending – to the glory of the Lord!

    – Jeff H

  69. You two are doing an excellent job helping to defend and contend. It’s not just the those in charge of this site who do it because many times life gets in the way and they can’t respond like they would like. DefCon is helped by those visitors who also defend and contend for the faith! Thanks so much for helping out by defending and contending for the faith and sharing the gospel with those who refuse to listen!

  70. Bob says:

    Friends in Christ,

    I will pray for all of you that the Lord will give you wisdom and insight as you respond to those that visit this site.

    When I bought a Chevy Impala not too long ago I began to
    notice many other Impalas on the road. Surfing the internet I now notice many comments and blogs-sites that are maintained by atheists. As I was on You-Tube yesterday I was listening to some clips of Christian music and began to read the comments that are listed with each clip by people making comments. Most were positive comments about the song and how it spoke to their heart but I am noticing more nasty comments by people . Some comments were filthy and stating
    that there is no God and deriding Christains. This type of reaction will be evident all the more as time goes on. I do not see negative comment on religion or other faiths very much. Most of the focus is on the Christian and Jesus. What does that tell us ? The spirit of anti-christ is evident. Of course that is rejecting Christ and stating that He did not come in the flesh at all. We should not be surprised because we have been warned. Of course the Lord will guide us in this endeavor as we live for Him and share the gospel.

    Blessings

  71. cl says:

    DP,

    I was just checking back to see if you’d gotten time for that explanation yet. Hope this message finds you well, I’ll just keep checking back ’til we connect.

    Bob,

    Sometimes I do take the last word no matter what. Other times I do not.

    Earlier, you said, “I do not think that you will ever accept my explanation or that of anyone about judgement and opinions and discipline from God or any other explanation in that arena.” Actually, I might just accept your explanation with open arms if you would just apologize for assuming all these things about me. If you responded with, “You know what cl, maybe you’re right, maybe I’ve overstepped my bounds with some of the things I’ve assumed about you,” and then we proceeded to get to know each other’s opinions on various subjects, we could develop an actual relationship. Jesus didn’t gain converts by telling them they were wrong; contrary, He showed them love and acceptance, generally saving His words of judgment and condemnation for the pious.

    You said, “I see enough of his writing to know that he claims to be agnostic which is one pay grade higher than an atheist. That is enough for me. He has made a poor choice.”

    The religious didn’t recognize Jesus as righteous, either. See, you jump to conclusions about me: why don’t you try reading what I actually say regarding agnosticism? What “poor choice” do you claim I’ve made? I’m just being honest: I believe there is a God, but I do not know, in the same sense that I know I have a body. I believe we will all know there is a God someday.

    Jeff H.,

    You said, “That’s also why I made the comment about myself being at risk of “casting pearls before swine.””

    Rude, but expected, as you operate from the idea that I’m an unsaved heathen on the basis of superficial judgments, and that your comments are going towards my salvation.

    You said, “He’s more than welcome to the last word – or – words – or posts, or whatever he wants. I just want him to be saved.”

    Why do you assume I’m not? That’s my question.

    DP’s Wife,

    You said, “You two are doing an excellent job helping to defend and contend. It’s not just the those in charge of this site who do it because many times life gets in the way and they can’t respond like they would like. DefCon is helped by those visitors who also defend and contend for the faith! Thanks so much for helping out by defending and contending for the faith and sharing the gospel with those who refuse to listen!”

    How can I convince you that there’s nothing to defend against? I’m not attacking the faith.

  72. Jeff H says:

    cl,

    Rude, but expected, as you operate from the idea that I’m an unsaved heathen on the basis of superficial judgments, and that your comments are going towards my salvation.

    Your record seems to be stuck!

    We’ve already demonstrated with Scripture that your fruit is not consistent with someone who is saved.

    Perhaps you are deceived… perhaps you are deceiving… either way, I know you like to post and post and post merely to argue. I’ve seen your blogsite.

    You’re not seeking to understand the Bible or Christianity better, so your comments serve nothing better than to smear Christians and thereby the Name of Christ.

    THAT is why I made the comment about casting pearls.

    Argue away, if you wish, but the truth is that you have been weighed against God’s Word and have been found lacking.

    Don’t be offended by us, we are merely holding aloft the Word of God. Think about it: if we are all relating the same message to you, cl, using Scripture, and you are offended by this, is not your battle with the Lord and His Word?

    Enjoy your ‘academic’ arguments and your coy reluctance to share what you believe, I’m sure God is just as amused as we are. Just remember Whose Word… Whose SON you run roughshod over.

    Get saved… then post here, and we’ll see… over time… if you begin to bear fruit that is in keeping with salvation.

    We’ll see, o.k.?

    In Jesus,
    – Jeff H

  73. cl says:

    “We’ve already demonstrated with Scripture that your fruit is not consistent with someone who is saved.”

    No you haven’t, Jeff. You’ve demonstrated your own assumptions about me. In other words, you’ve judged me. You have no way of knowing whether I’ve met the Scriptural requirements for salvation or not. You can sit here and say whatever you want; none of it is based on accurate knowledge. You imply that a “real Christian” would do things so much differently than me – perhaps they would not accept an award from an atheist, or speak with a different tone. What if I’m a “real Christian” who’s new to the faith? What if I’m a “real Christian” who simply has a different approach to blogging than those here? What if I’m a “real Christian” who happens to think that atheists are “real people” equally deserving of respect and companionship? It’s not like I’m here using foul language and insulting people, right? I mean, Bob, who also accuses me like you, is on blogs TELLING PEOPLE TO HANG THEMSELVES. Is that Christian?

    “Perhaps you are deceived… perhaps you are deceiving… either way, I know you like to post and post and post merely to argue. I’ve seen your blogsite.”

    Perhaps you’re deceived, Jeff? What? You think it’s impossible? Are you “too Christian” to be deceived? I know you’re not gonna tell me you are when even Cephus was deceived! Yes, sometimes on my blog, we argue. Other times, we have wonderful conversations – believers, atheists, whoever. You should come by some time, suspend your judgments, and just get to know me – so that you can make a “real judgment” as Jesus admonishes.

    “You’re not seeking to understand the Bible or Christianity better, so your comments serve nothing better than to smear Christians and thereby the Name of Christ.

    Again, your assumption, i.e. judgment. The truth is, I’m over at my blog seeking to understand the Bible and Christianity as best I can. I’m defending belief just like these guys here. But, I fully expect that you don’t know this, because you’re not over there “seeking to understand my blog better,” just over here making hasty judgments.

    “THAT is why I made the comment about casting pearls.”

    And if THAT is why you made the comment, then your comment was based on an ASSUMPTION about me – that I’m “not seeking to understand the Bible or Christianity better.”

    “Argue away, if you wish, but the truth is that you have been weighed against God’s Word and have been found lacking.”

    Found lacking to you, mere man.

    “Don’t be offended by us,”

    That’s just it – although I’ve chosen to overlook it – I am offended by you – and you can’t even consider apologizing, or that you might have any legitimate culpability in the offense. It’s like you can’t or won’t even look at yourself.

    “..if we are all relating the same message to you, cl, using Scripture, and you are offended by this, is not your battle with the Lord and His Word?”

    Who’s “we all?” I’m talking to you. Bob took a few comments, and DP dropped out of the convo two weeks ago. As far as my battles with the Lord are concerned, like Jacob, we all wrestle with God.

    “Enjoy your ‘academic’ arguments and your coy reluctance to share what you believe,”

    More insulting, denigrating tone? Why? What causes you to burn against me? What have I done to you? What I believe is written all over the place, for those with eyes to see and ears to hear, but if your mind is already all made up about me, then so be it.

    “Get saved… then post here, and we’ll see… over time… if you begin to bear fruit that is in keeping with salvation.”

    Gimme a break – now I say you owe me an apology, and I’ve never said that to anyone online before.

    Can somebody else here please consider telling Jeff H that saying stuff like this is rude? I mean, surely, there’s gotta be one other person here who thinks he’s out of line. If not, then church really is something these days. If those outside the church are looking at this, I can only wonder what they think.

  74. Jeff H says:

    cl,

    you’ve judged me.

    Yup! As I have stated all along, we have looked at your fruit against the standard of God’s Word. We are told to do so in Scripture.

    Remember from my earlier post to you:

    God actually commands us to judge those who claim to be in the church (The Book of Matthew, chapter 7).

    Take another look at Pilgrim’s Rules of Engagement. Rule number 8:

    8). If you can’t leave a comment without judging us for judging others then please find another blog to comment on that allows you to blatantly twist Scripture while you judge them.

    But you can do that yourself:

    “Test yourself to see if you are in the faith; examine yourself! Or do you not recognize this about yourself, that Jesus Christ is in you — unless indeed you fail the test?” (2 Corinthians 13:5)

    How do you measure up?

    cl, I’m not going to re-tread worn out ground with you. If you continue to wave the ‘judging’ card in every post – and you desire a response from me – just peruse my previous posts… you’ll get your answer.
    :)

    You wrote:

    The truth is, I’m over at my blog seeking to understand the Bible and Christianity as best I can.

    But earlier you wrote:

    “I’m not interested in biblical exposition right now.”

    You have a group of Bible believing Christians HERE ready to explain Christianity to you.

    Your blog… not so much.

    And yet, you choose to flame us instead of learning from us.

    Gimme a break – now I say you owe me an apology, and I’ve never said that to anyone online before.

    Uh… right. I should apologize to you for suggesting you get saved?

    Can somebody else here please consider telling Jeff H that saying stuff like this is rude? I mean, surely, there’s gotta be one other person here who thinks he’s out of line.

    So I’m out of line for defending and contending for my Lord Jesus’ Word?

    If not, then church really is something these days.

    The saints comprise the Bride of Christ.

    Earthly churches contain varying combinations of wheat and tares…

    If those outside the church are looking at this, I can only wonder what they think.

    Jesus said that the world will HATE the Church and the Lord’s saints, and that the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing.

    ‘Churches’ that try to mimic the world in order to fill the pews invariably attract goats and drive off the sheep.

    So, cl, I’ll ask you again:

    Are you saved?

    In Christ,

    – Jeff H

  75. It is discussions like the one above that really drive home the reality that man cannot and will not, on his own, believe the gospel. I have seen it with my own family members. They always make some kind of excuse as to not believe. It makes me stand in awe of my own belief. Salvation truly is of the Lord.

    For a lack of better terms, the gospel is so simple to understand.

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