The Pilgrim
Coram Deo
Bill
unworthy1
brother Michael
The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart. - Luke 6:45
In the past DefCon has taken Mark Driscoll to task on several issues including his gutter mouth, lack of reverence for God, and even his mocking of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Most of the time I’ve played a less-than-active role in these matters as other contributors have mainly been on the front lines. Well today I’m getting in the trenches because I’m furious at Mark Driscoll and Pilgrim Radio for what transpired yesterday. Here’s the story:
My wife told me about a sermon Pilgrim Radio was playing on the radio as she was returning home from the grocery store with our young children in the car. She said that the man preaching (she had no clue who he was) was talking about “prostitutes,” “whores,” and “lesbians” and that he kept using these expressions as if trying to be shocking.
Bingo! My wife who knows very little—if anything—about Mark Driscoll hit the nail on the head in her evaluation of him.
She then told me that this same man began talking about wives in submission to their husbands and how oftentimes men abuse this. Instead of using an innocuous example to make his point, what did Mark “The Cussing Pastor” Driscoll do? Why, he did what apparently comes so natural for him: Driscoll expounded on such abuse by illustrating an example in which men misuse their wives’ submission by making them watch porn!
Are you kidding me? That’s the best example he could come up with? For crying out loud, my kids were in the car and heard this trash before their mother turned it off. Does this guy’s mind ever come up out of the gutter for air?
Consider, if you will, all the images that were conjured in the minds of those who heard this man go on about porn yet again (he was talking about porn in another “sermon” just a few weeks ago on Pilgrim Radio). Does he not care about all those who are struggling with pornography who listened to this “pastor” expecting to hear the pure Gospel of Jesus Christ preached in reverence, only to be hit with the last thing they would expect to hear from a “church”? How many men and women at that moment had impure thoughts rush into the battlefields of their minds because of Mark Driscoll’s seemingly insatiable appetite for discussing all things sexual in a public forum?
How dare he call himself a pastor and stand in a pulpit spewing such juvenile, perverse, and debase ideas under the guise of “preaching?” And how dare Pilgrim Radio air such filth from the ever-flowing open sewer known as the mouth of Mark Driscoll?
When my wife described this to me I immediately knew who she was referring to because during the same hour of the morning that this “sermon” was oozing across the airwaves, I also had turned on Pilgrim Radio and heard Mark Driscoll (in his usual flippancy to gain a laugh from the goats) talking about men liking noisy power tools because it drowns out the constant yapping of the wives they hate. What an obnoxious thing to say!
Needless to say I immediately turned off the radio. Little did I know fifty miles away my wife and innocent little children were about to have their minds polluted with such concepts as “prostitutes,” “whores,” “lesbians,” and “porn” . . . wicked sins my children should not have to be exposed to, especially by one who claims to be a minister of the Gospel on a radio station that claims to be Christian.
My wife had no idea who this profane man on the radio was but she had enough sense and discernment (which seems to be lacking in so many others) to reject him and change the radio station.
At this time I am in the process of doing the following three things:
1). I’ve removed Pilgrim Radio from this blog as they will no longer be endorsed by DefCon.
2). I am writing the once trusted Pilgrim Radio a lengthy letter detailing my rebuke of them for allowing this poison to enter the minds of dear Christians and their children who fell victim to this assault.
3). All the Driscollite defenders who patrol the internet and swarm blogs such as this to offer excuses for their Golden Calf will have to find another soundboard for their approval of and winking at sin as their comments will no longer be welcome here. I refuse to provide a platform for their calling evil good and good evil.
Our family strives to be holy in spite of being surrounded by the world, the culture–and now even the professing church which is indistinguishable from the world and culture–where holiness is a strange and foreign concept, and oftentimes openly mocked by those who should know better . . . those who claim to be Christians (while still practicing lawlessness). So when the wickedness of the world sneaks in via a Christian radio station you can imagine my surprise, anger, and disgust. My kids should have never been subjected to this filth and as their father it’s my responsibility to protect them and keep them pure.
Shame on Mark Driscoll for using the pulpit to advance his insatiable lust of the flesh for all things sexual. And shame on Pilgrim Radio for giving this purveyor of perversity a platform to poison my precious children with his toxic, man-centered, sin-pleasing oratory.
The fear of the LORD is to hate evil; pride and arrogance and the evil way and the perverted mouth, I hate. -Proverbs 8:13
________________________________________________________________
Amen, Pilgrim. Many “pastors” have forgotten Paul’s method as described in 1 Corinthians 2: “And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.”
Even those speakers who do not cuss, yet try to impress men and goats forget that any faith developed will rest in the “wisdom of men” rather than in the power of God.
Indeed, shame on the whole category of men pleasers.
Never has there been someone quite like this!
Solid in his theology (for the most part) and yet seemingly weak in the teaching area of practical holiness/sanctification.
He really is a stange ‘phenomina’ right now. My goodness.
I seriously wonder where all this is heading…….I really do.
Driscoll’s spiritual poison is especially deadly because it comes packaged in such an outwardly attractive wrapper.
It looks like Gospel truth, it smells like Gospel truth, it sounds like Gospel truth, but it is an assassin’s blend of truth mixed with deadly error.
Driscoll’s perverse style of syncretism – mixing the profane with the sacred – is a veritable apothacary’s blend of just enough Biblical orthodoxy and sinful flesh to lead great hordes of silly men and women laden with sins astray, intoxicating them with his flesh pleasing siren’s song.
But God will not be mocked, and pride goeth before the fall; and when that house built upon the sand called Mars Hill Church falls, great shall be the fall of it. Perhaps then Driscoll’s enablers, such as John Piper, may finally realize that they share in his spiritual blood-guilt.
May the One True and Living God, the Infinite Creator and Judge of the universe open Mark Driscoll’s eyes and grant him repentance, reconciliation, and restoration to the praise of His glorious Name, or else turn him over to Satan that he may learn not to blaspheme.
In Christ,
CD
What is it with this guy. He needs to deeply meditate on Philippians 3:8. He has got an obsession with the baser things in life. Too much being of the world and trying to stay relevant. I wonder does he ever think what kind of impression he is making on those around him, especially new Christians. He also needs to grow up.
I commend you and your wife.
Mark Driscoll is the new rotten fruit of modern evangelicalism. His sin has totally deceived him. Keeping our young children, grand children, and wives pure from the world has resulted in our family pulling the plug on organized church attendance.
Mark is but the more obvious fruit, many more are not discovered till the fruit is consumed, and only then is it discovered that at the core is the evilness of a man made, man run religious business.
Thanks for speaking out.
Steve Blackwell
http://www.indywatchman.com
Gutter-talk from a pastor is totally out of line. Thank you and your wife for standing against it.
Your post did not include any Bible verses. Could you point me to where in the Bible it says that the words like Whore, Prostitute or Lesbian should not be spoken of?
The Bible itself uses the words whore, prostitute and homosexual.
It seems like you believe that certain topics of Scripture are off limites for christians to talk about? Is that correct?
This is a not a driscoll-support post, it’s just a question regarding your beliefs.
Trudat:
Your post did not include any Bible verses.
Really? Did you miss the beginning and end of the post? They were very apropos to the point.
The Bible itself uses the words whore, prostitute and homosexual.
Context is the key, Trudat. The Bible doesn’t use the terms to be shocking, or even funny like how Driscoll does it. It would be like how preachers who warn of Hell awaiting the sinner sound nothing like Fred Phelps of Westboro Baptist Church. Context is key. Additonally I must be missing that part of the Bible that talks about porn. Judging by the frequency in which Driscoll drones on and on about porn, you’d think half the Bible talked about it.
It seems like you believe that certain topics of Scripture are off limites for christians to talk about? Is that correct?
Nope. You know exactly what I am talking about, don’t play games.
Are you going to come here and explain to my four year old about porn, Trudat? Are you going to talk about it to your young kids?
This is a not a driscoll-support post, it’s just a question regarding your beliefs.
And your other post supporting/defending Driscoll was not a Driscoll support post either I presume? I find it hard to believe that someone who willingly sits under Driscoll’s teaching, who takes more offense at what Fourpointer said in the other post than what Driscoll says on almost a daily basis, and who takes the time to comment on posts about Driscoll would dare leave a comment in support of Driscoll.
I mean afterall, every post you’ve ever left on DefCon has been in support of Mark Driscoll, now we’re supposed to believe you’re simply asking a question? Come on.
I recommend you re-read number three above regarding Driscoll defenders (and supporters).
- The Pilgrim
I personally find it ironic that for a preacher who claims to be “missional”, and thinking about what his audience needs to hear, Driscoll decided to use the language that he did.
Should Driscoll have used a less shocking example? Yes, probably. But he was talking about husbands oppressing their wives: how is that not shocking in itself? What example should he have used to match the level of outrage that all Christians should show towards such behaviour?
A resounding amen, Pilgrim! Thank you for this post. I am angered greatly at the fact that while we struggle as parents to keep our children from being hit in the face with filth from the world, now we have to worry about the pastor on the radio spewing language and creating sexual images in our children’s minds. I am profoundly disgusted by Driscoll’s mouth, and as a woman I feel degraded by these men who rip the veil from holy things and speak of them flippantly and coarsely. God save us from this kind of “pastor.” Thank you, again.
Let’s pray that Mark Driscoll be used to glorify God. He has so many talents, and clearly a biblical understanding of the Gospel, yet this controversy negates so much of the good work he does. He is clearly speaking to so many, yet if he causes other Christians to stumble, then he needs to pray that God use him in a way that is pleasing to God.
Also, while I absolutely agree that we need to avoid being shocking for the simple sake of being shocking, I do think it’s important that we not shy away from talking about sexual sin and pornography as the shocking offenses that they are.
The guy in ballard hasn’t changed his tune. The first time I heard him on Street Talk years before MarsHill was founded, one thing that seemed to stand out about him was his bizarre take on what it means to be a man, very blue collar, we used to call them “hard hats”, my generation considered them the enemy of all that was good. Driscoll’s preoccupation with kinky sex is just part of that package, a component in the subculture he identifies with. I don’t get too upset about his language. He shouldn’t be allowed into the pulpit talking like he does, but that is a problem with the church. If the church is sic, it will let loose canons into the pulpit. That’s hardly news. Seattle has had a whole string of loud mouth mega-pastors, some of them have been sexual deviants. The judgement from the “mother’s board”: “When the pastor is always talking sex, you can be sure he is doing more than just talking.”
&y said: “how is that not shocking in itself? What example should he have used to match the level of outrage that all Christians should show towards such behaviour?”
How about hitting most where it counts? Ex: hubby decides to move family to another state without consulting wife. What does wife do? Scripturally, she submits, but in actuality, many would grumble, fume, and some might refuse to have their lives disrupted.
The point is submission, not shock. We don’t need to have a vulgar example to illustrate a point.
Dear Ingrid, Mel, C. Sterling, Peg, Indywatchman, Manfred, Mathhew, Corem, and Jude:
Thank you all for reassuring me that there are still some out there who have not bowed the knee (or drank the Kool Ade).
To those who erroneously charge me with having a problem with the words in question “because after all, these words are found in the Bible,” allow me to clarify: It’s the usage of those words that I have issue with. We talk about the death of Jesus Christ because “it’s in the Bible” but we don’t (or at least we shouldn’t) handle it lightly. We talk about Hell “because it’s in the Bible” but we don’t treat it flippantly. The same goes for all the other words that Driscoll thinks are so funny.
My wife knew nothing of him but had enough sense to know his cavalier and juvenile handling of these words was not appropriate.
And finally, to those Driscoll defenders who thought I was kidding about not allowing you to spread your Driscoll leaven on DefCon any further, allow me to remind you:
3). All the Driscollite defenders who patrol the internet and swarm blogs such as this to offer excuses for their Golden Calf will have to find another soundboard for their approval of and winking at sin as their comments will no longer be welcome here. I refuse to provide a platform for their calling evil good and good evil.
This is why your comments have not shown up on this thread (especially the rude ones).
Wondering how Christianity survived 2,000 years without sex talk from the pulpits,
- The Pilgrim
Pastor Ben,
I am a single man… I don’t like it when preachers drag the name of my Lord through the mud, wether it’s blatant or in some crass contextual form. That in itself makes me want to open my mouth. It gets me into trouble with people who have little regard for the Truth or the purity of God’s church.
Now consider that The Pilgrim IS a MARRIED man with YOUNG CHILDREN! Please understand! This is a case where a man’s bride and small children were literally SLIMED! I praise GOD that here is a real MAN who is willing to take a stand, not only for Christ and His church, but his FAMILY! I respect that! Talk about YELLOW? What about YELLOW American Pastors who refuse to take a stand against the incredible tide of ungodliness that has swept evangelicalism in the last 20 years! I mean a total refusal to take a stand and call a spade a spade! All in the name of Christian “Love.” I am reading through the book of Acts. I am in Acts chapter 23 when Paul came to Jerusalem, where Jewish “christians” waited to do him in! Yes, Paul the apostle, the one who named names like Alexander the coppersmith and many others who subverted the Truth and led many astray, was not quite loved by all his bretheren. When will we start standing with Christ and bear His reproach? When will we quit blending in with the filth of this present evil age! If men continue to fail to take a stand in the American church… then America’s had it, dear brother! It’s not gossip… it’s a call to war!
Some fine men, as usual, are going to be lining up to defend him. Inexplicable. If the defenders were as “solid Biblically” as they claim, every one would condemn his foul obsession and plead with Pastor Driscoll to repent. I won’t hold my breath.
I can’t stand the fact that the Mark D’s of this world are on the air, but… that is the problem we have been taught that “Christian radio” or “Christian tv” is “Christian”.
about 90% isn’t. It is “American false Chrisitian”.
Turn It Off and let the “world love it’s own” while they listen to false sheppards calling the false sheep away after thier own (raunchy) voice.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me
- Jesus
I like listening to things at home…I have young kids. But in January, after having to run for the mouse to click stop or rush to turn down the volume a few times…I can no longer listen to MDs sermons around my children. There are too many inappropriate things said. And yes, there are STILL things that should NOT be jested about and things that should NOT be discussed in mixed audiences or around young children. Mr. Driscoll’s crude sexual innuendo and flippancy toward Jesus and God’s Word sadden me. After I listened to things of his I felt dirty and ashamed. I don’t believe that is how I am supposed to feel after listening to a sermon. Convicted of sin, sure, but that is not what I am talking about. I am saying yucky. I heard him speak at a conference and he said a terribly gross and embarrassing thing and repeated it FIVE OR SIX times – purely for the shock factor. The first time of saying “bloody tampon” wasn’t enough????? He used that as what are good works are – as “filthy rags” – he said that is what the translation is. Which I have a hard time believing since women did not use tampons in Bible times. He could have at least said menstrual rags…but he had to go for the shock value. I should have walked out and am ashamed now that I did not.
Thank you for this. Thank you for standing up for the women and children especially. Too many men find in Mark a justification for their lingering sin of lust and other sexual sins. They find an example of how to continue in “childish behavior and speech” and the church today needs men especially to mature.
Ben M.
This was just a short article. Much has been written about Driscoll, who is not only a blight on the body of Christ, but unfortunately only representative of a larger problem.
Here’s your homework. Carefully read these articles and report back to the class.
(watch URL wrap)
John MacArthur on Driscoll
http://www.shepherdsfellowship.org/pulpit/Posts.aspx?ID=4168
http://www.shepherdsfellowship.org/pulpit/Posts.aspx?ID=4169
http://www.shepherdsfellowship.org/pulpit/Posts.aspx?ID=4172
http://www.shepherdsfellowship.org/pulpit/Posts.aspx?ID=4174
Phil Johnson on Driscoll
http://www.shepherdsfellowship.org/pulpit/Posts.aspx?ID=4082
http://www.shepherdsfellowship.org/pulpit/Posts.aspx?ID=4084
http://www.shepherdsfellowship.org/pulpit/Posts.aspx?ID=4085
Baptist Press on Driscoll
http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=30700
Driscoll on Driscoll
https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dg4fc37g_6fjdd38c8&hl=en
Just reading these articles has tarnished my brain.
-Bill
You know, I generally prefer studying out of the ESV. But there are some expressions in the KJV that I really like.
One of them is a phrase, “gird yourself like a man.” It’s found in a number of places but offhand I remember our God saying it to Job when He was going to ask Job questions. I view the phrase to be something like “put on your big boy pants.”
I wish Mark’s defenders would put on the big boy pants, and become men. Men who do not abide the mockery of their Lord, men who do not abide a filthy-mouthed charlatan, men who call it as it is. MD speaks nothing like Christ, nothing like the apostles. He might chirp some sound theology but his love of filth is so great he cannot even keep it from his preaching.
Let’s all put on big boy pants, move out of wonderland, and deal in truth in reality according to the will and to the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Brian,
I’m with you – there are some passages wherein methinks the KJV is da bomb!
In concert with your post, may I humbly submit 1 Corinthians 16:13 from The Authorized Version?
“Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.”
Pilgrim, You are spot on!!!!! I am also disgusted by the continuous focus on everything sexual by Mark Driscoll. He behaves not as a pastor, but as a high-school locker-room jock.
Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
I think many of these so called “pastors” have become blind to the deceit that resides in sinful flesh: The desire to be heard and to feel that you are making an impact, its an idol to self!
Most pastors today have fallen to this, thinking they are being in service to Christ when in actual fact they are being in service to their own flesh. you can have 99% of the Gospel correct but if you fall to the sin of the idol to self then you can be lost.
With how completely saturated our culture is today with carnal sexual imagery and the over emphasis on self fulfilment we all must remain close to God, otherwise we will become blind and succumb to this pervasively sexual and self culture.
This reminds me of Chuck Swindoll and his potty mouth.
But for the grace of God, there go I. Lord help me to remain fast in you and deny the urge to exhalt self!
John,
I was not aware of Chuck Swindoll having a problem with language, but I do know that Chuck has been endorsing and moving down the road towards contemplative mysticism. You are correct that but for the grace of God, we would all be there.
Why do people ignore the edification and admonition of Scripture? Just because the grace of God has been shed abroad in our hearts, you would think it would be an impetus to walk less like the world instead of delving into its murky filth. As Paul stated, grace does not abound so we can enjoy sin — GOD FORBID!
The Desert Pastor
Thank you, gentlemen.
I am so grieved that so many in my denomination are lining up to follow Driscoll. Do they not see that he mocks our Lord? Our Most Holy Savior is reduced to crude jokes and our precious Word is presented as trash talk from an immature boy masquerading as a pastor?
Ironically, and I mean this as no insult to those of you here, but the only condemnation of Driscoll’s trash talk that I could find for several years was coming from egalitarians! And it was not just on his view of women but on his potty mouth. Many were wondering why his laser like focus on sex for so long? I believe that his mouth, coupled with his behavior (his authoritarian take over of his church) and some of the things he teaches (like his recent diatribe on abuse which was really pointing back to him) and even some of his bizarre opinions such as pastors wives who let themselves go, make pastors stray…. point us to the fact that Driscoll is a time bomb waiting to go off. He exhibits abusive tendancies.
I say this because I have followed his rants for quite some time and when he is rebuked by another celebrity, he says he repents. But then he gets worse. Abusers are known to say ‘sorry’ then esculate the wrong behavior. It is a pattern.
I heard him say not long ago that everything he says on stage comes from the Holy Spirit. I cringed when I heard that blasphemous statement.
Unfortuantly, Driscoll is taking some with him like Piper, Jeff Noblitt and many in the SBC. I do not care if his doctrine is correct when his fruit is so very rotten. Even satan knows correct doctrine.
Could you please provide a link to the sermon in question? I’d like to listen to it myself. Thank you.
“I heard him say not long ago that everything he says on stage comes from the Holy Spirit. I cringed when I heard that blasphemous statement.”
Good grief! That statement alone is grounds for anyone in his church demand he be removed from the office of elder.
The claim that he’s only being “transparent” when he spews filth doesn’t wash. Elders are not perfect but they are commanded to be examples to the other sheep. As the elders of my former church found out when I confronted them over nonsense, elders NEED TO BE guarded in what they publicly say; all the while confessing that they are mere men who desperately need the grace of God and the covering of Christ every day. When Christians hold up their pastor, or when he steps up as their role model, their view of Christ is obscured. As their example, he is to preach Christ, walk in Christ, and point people to Christ.
Well, better late than never! I’m glad people are waking up to Driscoll’s hypocrisy and filth and taking action, but its sad its had to go this far. Still, I’m glad the Lord is waking up His people.
I do disagree with the idea that was posted in the comment section about Driscoll having sound doctrine. He does not.
A person’s life reveals what he truly believes, not what he merely says he believes.
Driscoll’s life denies biblical sanctification(.1Tim. 6:11; Titus 1:1, 2Peter 1:5-7)
Driscoll’s life shows he is disqualified as a pastor/teacher (1Tim. 3, Titus 1, James 3, 2Cor. 6).
Driscoll denies the doctrine of women not teaching men in church (1Cor. 14; 1Tim. 3).
Driscoll denies purity of speech which is repeatedly commanded in Scripture. 1Tim. 6:11; Eph. 4-5
Driscoll’s teaching and behavior shows a man-centered doctrine and practice. Surely he is not Solo Deo Gloria.
If doctrine doesn’t change a life, then its either false doctrine or he doesn’t truly believe biblical doctrine.
Claiming TULIP should not give anyone a free pass. Piper and Mahaney both should just as equally be shunned for giving one excuse after another for Driscoll, as well as continuing to offer Driscoll to their audiences as if he has any truly biblical wisdom.
Let’s be consistant across the board. Starting with rejecting Pilgrim radio was an excellent decision, as well as writing them the rebuke!
Thank you, thank you, thank you! You do not know the encouragement you, and others that posted here, gave me today. I too, have been blowing the trumpet warning about Mark Driscoll for quite awhile now in my denomination. This week has been a rough one, as I watched SBC leaders dismiss concerns from their messengers, on the growing involvement of this man and his ministry in our churches.
The conversations I have had with pastors, professors, officers, etc., have been so disheartening. Men who I love and have respected, continually giving this man a pass, grasping for every excuse they can think of. I am at a loss as to what has happened to them. Telling me he’s mostly solid everywhere else, that he’s still growing so give him time, look at all the young he’s reaching…on and on it goes.
As prude, puritan and fundie are hurled my way, them expecting a defense from me, for these assumed labels on their part, I admit, I have felt down…but thank the Lord…not out! It is time for them to defend why they sit and listen to Song of Solomon being twisted, smutty talk that entices the men, and embarrasses the women, lewd jokes using Scripture and our Lord as the punch line, etc.
He likes to talk about what being a real man is. He’s supposed to be more than that. He’s a Christian man, a shepherd of a flock, an influence among the young…an example of what his daughter should one day look for in a husband. Think of that for a minute. What father would want his daughter to be exposed to this?
Thank you for letting us see the love you have for your wife and kids. With many leaders in my denomination, and even Dr. Piper, not saying “enough is enough”, I thought I was losing my mind. I couldn’t understand why such prominent leaders and teachers weren’t seeing what seemed so obvious. Frankly, I still don’t. I pray they will, but am grateful for the growing numbers that are.
(IMAGINATION ALERT!!)
There’s a fellow I work with. Good Christian man. Goes to church every Sunday and twice on Wednesdays. Knows the Bible inside out, backwards and forwards. There isn’t a thing you could ask him that he couldn’t answer. And as far as his believing in salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone–you’ll never shake him from that. And he’ll tell anybody who asks the same thing.
I mean, yeah, he likes to cuss a lot. He can’t finish half of his sentences without using a four-letter word. Everybody knows it. In fact, it’s one of the first things that comes to mind when you ask people about him. And not only that, he likes to tell off-color jokes and he sprinkles his speech with crude and classless words. People have tried to show him, from Scripture, why he should stop using that kind of language, but he doesn’t want to stop. Says he likes to “keep up with the times.”
But, hey, I still like to hear him talk, vulgarity and all.
………………………….
Question for those who will defend Driscoll: if Driscoll wasn’t a pastor. If he was just somebody you knew who fit the description of the person described above. Someone you worked with, or went to church with. Would you still think there was nothing wrong with him? Would you still consider him a “good Christian man?” Or would you try to get him to change, and maybe even cease speaking with him until he did?
Your answer will show everybody whether you stand for truth–or whether you stand for a personality.
I want to congratulate you brother for making the bold and necessary step to expose this wolf in sheep’s clothing. I have been disgusted ever since John Piper invited “gutter mouth” to his conference. I know my words can sound condescending, but I am angry as you are for leading people astray and defaming the name of Jesus Christ who is our great king, high priest, and prophet. I’m also very concerned as to how a “Christian” radio station can publish this trash. Your wife and kids would probably have been safer listening to Howard Stern.
Again, just want to exhort you to continue the fight of faith and to expose themselves that claims, “Are apostles, but are not”.
I make no distinction in permissable language – laity or clergy – as the Bible makes no such distinction. The prohibition against “filthy jesting” applies to all Christians.
The use of crude vulgarities breaks down natural barriers of modesty and often is a precusor to sexual sin. As a Boy Scout leader (a secular institution) 30 years ago, we were taught not to make off-color jokes in front of the children for that very reason. It’s a common tool utilized by pedophiles and perverts.
Ted Haggard’s “Evangelical Sex is Great” video clip (filmed before his exposurel) is an example of where this can go.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX79GiZPP1Q&feature=PlayList&p=C49BA06DC6923629&playnext=1&index=15
Did this climate in Haggards church have a barrier-breaking effect on his intern? I’d suggest it played a part.
Why any “pastor” such as Driscoll would think that he can speak – in the pulpit – in front of children – in a manner that would get him booted from the Scouts is beyond me.
Somebody help me out here. Why is this man still being called anything but a false prophet? Did John Mac or Washer or Begg or any of the REAL proclaimers of God’s word ever resort to such filth? NEVER!!! When was the last time M D did nothing but tell you how wonderful Jesus was? I’ve never heard such a sermon. Is there one in existance? His doctrine may be mostly correct—so what!! The devils in hell know who Jesus really is and tremble. They also are very good at mocking Him and lying about Him, so what’s the difference between the demons and Driscoll?
I’d seriously like some answers
Thanks, Darrel
Joe Morales:
Amen, brother.
Abounding Media:
Spot on!
Brent:
Pilgrim Radio was once a very trusted station. It’s because of their past trustworthiness that we listen to them. So when this smut came spewing through the speakers in my wife’s vehicle with our children present, you can understand why this is so upsetting. It’s not a matter of “just don’t listen to it” as some Driscollites have been using as a defense of their Golden Calf. I DON’T listen to MD. My wife, however, was unaware of who the guy was. She was blindsided. Sadly, the Driscoll defenders simply cannot see any problem with this. They instead want to blame everyone (including me who was not present) for my kids hearing this smut. They lay blame at the feet of every but Driscoll. He’s almost as untouchable to his follower’s as a cult’s leader.
Lynn:
That’s exactly what he did in this instance. My wife says he kept repeating the words over and over again for the shock factor. And yet Driscoll defender’s only reply is, “Well, it’s in the Bible, don’t be such a prude.” There truly are none so blind as those who refuse to see. Apparently there are others out there (like yourself) who have to turn off their radios when MD is “preaching.” It seems we’re a minority as most have chosen to sit under and defend this man’s ministry.
Beyondgrace:
Thanks for all the links. Unfortunately for many out there the old saying applies; you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.
Brian of the Hill People:
“He might chirp some sound theology but his love of filth is so great he cannot even keep it from his preaching.” You hit the nail on the head with that one
Glenn E. Chatfield:
“He behaves not as a pastor, but as a high-school locker-room jock.” You hit the nail on the head with that one too.
John:
I remember hearing something about Swindoll using the pulpit to joke about his colon. Not sure if it’s true or not and haven’t heard anything else about it.
Lydia:
You are very welcome. Too bad we have to take so many firey darts in the process. “Do they not see that he mocks our Lord? Our Most Holy Savior is reduced to crude jokes and our precious Word is presented as trash talk from an immature boy masquerading as a pastor?” Nope. The lust of the eyes and flesh tends to blind many. “I do not care if his doctrine is correct when his fruit is so very rotten. Even satan knows correct doctrine.” Very true. Very, very true.
Jerry:
It was “Under Authority Like Christ” from MD’s series Christians Gone Wild (imagine that) which also includes another “sermon” entitled Good Sex, Bad Sex (imagine that).
Denise:
“A person’s life reveals what he truly believes, not what he merely says he believes.” This is very true. It reminds me of the video where MD is reciting his creed (all very sound) while wearing a t-shirt depicting Jesus as a D.J. Wow, talk about the lips not matching the heart. Also, thanks for the Scripture references in regards to this situation. Sadly those who need to take it to heart the most will only ignore that and call you a prude for not liking MD, and a Pharisee for daring to be vocal about it.
Kim:
You are welcome, welcome, welcome. You do not know the encouragement you and others posting on this thread have given me. “What father would want his daughter to be exposed to this?” Not me. That’s what started this whole situation because my four-year-old daughter has now been introduced to such wholesome concepts as prostitutes, whores, lesbians, and porn while listening to the the supposed preaching of God’s Word.
Fourpointer:
Stop with the reason and logic already. It’s all about style over substance, don’t you know that? Don’t confuse us with your logic.
Jandrusk:
At least they would have expected this talk from Howard Stern. This is not what they expected from a Christian radio station. That’s what made this so insidious.
Darrel:
“His doctrine may be mostly correct—so what!! The devils in hell know who Jesus really is and tremble. They also are very good at mocking Him and lying about Him, so what’s the difference between the demons and Driscoll? I’d seriously like some answers” Good luck Darrel. I think you’ll be waiting a long time.
All of this reminds me of a video I posted last year. I recommend you view it and it may explain a lot of why so many people are embracing this man. It’s called “The Pastor’s Exalted” and you can view it by clicking here.
- The Pilgrim
Zac Soto: “He has so many talents, and clearly a biblical understanding of the Gospel.”
Clearly?
Jesus: “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!”
.
I think these words from A.W. Pink might encourage folks here:
http://www.gracegems.org/Pink2/take_heed_what_you_read.htm
Some of God’s dear people may suppose that it would be presumptuous to set themselves up as judges of what they hear or read—but that is a serious mistake, being both a false humility, and a shirking of duty. The Apostle rebuked the Hebrews because their senses (spiritual faculties) were not developed so as to discern between good and evil (Hebrews 5:13).
It is often a long time before God’s children are able to account for this. They blame themselves; they are exceedingly loath to say, “This message is not of God.” They are afraid to act in the spiritual, as they do in the natural, and condemn and discard that which is worthless.
“Take heed what you hear” and read! More than forty years ago the saintly Adolph Saphir wrote, “I think the fewer books we read—the better. It is like times of cholera, when we should only drink filtered water.” What would he say if he were on earth today and glanced over the deadly poison sent forth by the heterodox, and the lifeless rubbish put out by the orthodox? Christian reader, if you value the health of your soul, cease hearing and quit reading all that is lifeless, unctionless, powerless, no matter what prominent or popular name be attached thereto. Life is too short to waste valuable time on that which does not profit. Ninety-nine out of every hundred of the religious books, booklets, and magazines now being published, are not worth the paper on which they are printed!
To turn away from the lifeless preachers and publishers of the day—may involve a real cross. Your motives will be misconstrued, your words perverted, and your actions misinterpreted. The sharp arrows of false report will be directed against you. You will be called proud and self-righteous, because you refuse to fellowship empty professors. You will be termed censorious and bitter—if you condemn in plain speech—the subtle delusions of Satan. You will be dubbed narrow-minded and uncharitable, because you refuse to join in singing the praises of the “great” and “popular” men of the day. More and more, you will be made to painfully realize—that the path which leads unto eternal life is “narrow” and that FEW there are who find it. May the Lord be pleased to grant unto each of us—the hearing ear and obedient heart! “Take heed what you hear” and read!
Ephesians 4:29
“Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.”
“This reminds me of Chuck Swindoll and his potty mouth.”
I’m very curious to know to what this statement refers. I heard Chuck Swindoll preaching on Is. 6 today and he spoke against the “fowl mouth” and called it sinful and does not condone it. But then again, I don’t necessarily condone my own sin either so…
I’ve certainly never heard him say anything like that myself or heard anyone mention him using fowl language before, that is why I’m curious.
I appreciate what you’re doing here, and I agree with those of you who are stressing the mandatory test of purity in the life of those who claim to be qualified as leaders… Driscoll evidently disqualifies himself. The Bible states that out of the heart the mouth speaks. I wonder why more Christians don’t ask themselves, “Why does MD feel so compelled, obsessed even, to pepper (or lather) his speech with sex and smut?” And why they then do not come to the conclusion: That is so NOT okay…
What is also not okay, and just as damaging if not perhaps even more damaging to the Body of Christ, is his apparent spiritual/church abuse and abuse of women in his misogynistic teachings and flippant pithy idioms slamming women (one of these was quoted above here in a comment: men enjoy loud tools to drown out the yapping of their wives… this truly sounds like a man who is laying his life down for his wife as Christ gave up His life for the church… oh really? NOT!). He seems to be as obsessed with power and control as he is with coming across as a “lower life form.”
I’ve read so many “testimonies” of the damage this man has caused in people’s lives, especially in the lives of God’s daughters. Please, consider some of the facts from my research about Driscoll and Mars Hill:
freedom4captives.wordpress.com
And thank you for taking a stand here against what I consider to be arsenic in the Body of Christ.
Freedom In Him
Thank you SO much for being willing to write what you have! I’m breathing a sigh of relief after reading this post and the thread following! I’m in my twenties and as a Christian in this generation sometimes it seems as though if I’m not loving what MD and others like him who are embracing this “look at me guys, I’m your pastor, sure, but I’m just a regular guy. listen to the shocking things I can say….are you shocked yet?!” have to say then I’m doing something wrong. Well I don’t think there’s anything wrong with wanting something coming from the pulpit to be more family-friendly than an HBO show. Nothing saddens me more than pastors like MD having to start off every sermon with the disclaimer “this is going to be racy so if there are any kids still in here you might want to remove them now”. I pray that this trend fizzles out before I start having children…and thanks for the heads up about Pilgrim Radio!
Nat H:
I am encouraged by your comment. It is good to see that not every twenty-something churchgoer has drunk deep of the Kool-Ade.
Be steadfast. Remain in the Scriptures. Stay the course. Never compromise.
Your brother,
- The Pilgrim
P.S. To all you Driscoll defenders who have left comments since the publishing of this post that have never been approved, please understand that I was not kidding when I said:
All the Driscollite defenders who patrol the internet and swarm blogs such as this to offer excuses for their Golden Calf will have to find another soundboard for their approval of and winking at sin as their comments will no longer be welcome here. I refuse to provide a platform for their calling evil good and good evil.
It also does my heart good to read your comment, Nat.
I thought the following recent posts on my blog speak to this conversation specifically, so am including the links, Is Driscoll Really Qualified to Pastor? and Driscoll Teaches on Qualified Leadership (Did I Hear Laughter?):
\http://freedom4captives.wordpress.com/2009/08/20/42-is-driscoll-really-qualified-to-pastor/
http://freedom4captives.wordpress.com/2009/08/20/43-driscoll-teaches-on-qualified-leadership-did-i-hear-laughter/
In Christ,
Freedom
I must admit that I don’t know much about Mark Driscoll other than what I have read on some apologetic websites like Slice of Laodecia and from what I have read here recently. I agree about the belief that if you are listening to a “Christian” radio or watching a “Christian” TV station or visiting a “Christian” bookstore, you expect to see or hear Christian beliefs, values, etc. I am leery anymore to go into a Christian bookstore. I am not sure what is correct and what is not! There is so much in there that is just “following the current fad”! It disgusts me! It is the “jump on the bandwagon” mentality. I am in no way setting myself up as perfect! I have many besetting sins I wish to be rid of, but I know that I must pray and turn them over to the Lord, not continue with them (i.e.-my use of coarse language). It is hard, but I know my witness is being marred by them. Who would want to follow Christ if they could continue to act the same way? Why would they feel a need? Sorry to make this a confessional, but I wanted others to know that I struggle, so I am not trying to pretend I’m perfect. I am so glad I found this site! Keep up the good work!
Nicole
Pilgrim, exactly which Mark Driscoll sermon were you listening to? I’d like to listen to it and hear the context of what he was talking about.
The Dude:
The answer is in this comment.
- The Pilgrim
Love rejoices in the Truth. 1 Cor 13:6 Jesus IS the Truth. John 14:6 So those who love and rejoice in the Truth are not “prudes”, “fundies” or “hatemongers”. I will however take exception with Westoboro Baptist Church because they ARE hatemongers and do not stand on the Truth of the Word of God. They stand on the doctrines of men, namely Calvinistic “elitism” or a twisted version of predestination based on the false, man-invented doctrine of TULIP.
God is indeed sovereign and knows who will choose Him and be saved. Those are the “elect” who are predestined, not self-righteous, religious pharisees like WBC followers. God is not in the business of making puppets who are drawn “irrestably” to Him against their own free will as Tulip falsely teaches. He “desires that all men come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved” (1 Tim 2:4) so that proves “irrestible grace” to be a false doctrine.
Adam and Eve had free will in the Garden of Eden to choose between the Tree of Life (Christ) or the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Satan/flesh/world). Lucifer and his fallen angels HAD eternal life but CHOSE to reject God and do their own thing. God does not make puppets. We have our own free will to choose whether or not to love and serve Him. Just like when we get married. We still have our own free will to choose to love and remain faithful to our husband/wife or we can choose to commit adultery.
Same goes in the spiritual realm. “Once saved, always saved” is a BAPTIST doctrine. Biblical doctrine is choosing to love and serve God UNTIL THE END: “And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake, but he who ENDURES to the end shall be saved.” Matt 10:22 The only time “eternal security” becomes reality is when we are present in heaven WITH CHRIST! Otherwise this warning would be a lie: “Beware, lest you FALL from your SECURE position, being led away by the error of the wicked.” 2 Pet 3:17 And this would also be a lie: “And many of His DISCIPLES FELL BACK, and walked with Him no more.” John 6:66. There is no other name under heaven to which we might be saved. If they were “disciples of Christ” they were saved. If they FELL BACK, they were no longer saved.
I agree with all that is written here rebuking Mark Driscoll and his ilk, but we need to dig on back to the foundation of the problem which is SECTARIANISM (denominationalism, Baptist, Pentacostal, Catholice, Methodist, etc. etc. etc.) which is FORBIDDEN in 1 Cor Chapter 3. These are SECTS of MEN and all sects of men contain LEAVEN! Mark Driscoll stands out because he is not nearly as subtle as some of the others such as MacArthur, Piper, Noblitt, etc. but they are all 501(c)3 PHARISEES! They are part of the false bride (the Harlot organized church that Jesus calls the “Synagogue of Satan”). All of you who love the Truth (Jesus) need to realize this and “Come out of her My people, lest you share in her plagues.” Rev 18:4.
Most everyone here seems to have a genuine love of Truth which is what it takes to be saved from this perverse generation. (2 Thess 2:11). I was formerly a “Baptist” and when I began to actually READ my Bible for myself instead of listening the hirelings, I saw that what they were teaching was in direct opposition to the Word of God! The first thing I saw was that “Once saved, always saved” is the same lie Satan told Eve in the Garden of Eden “Has God really said you will DIE if you disobey Him?” Romans 6:16 clearly says that “You are that one’s servant whom you OBEY, whether of SIN leading to death, or righteousness leading to life.”
And Heb 10:26 says that if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the Truth (Jesus) there no longer REMAINS A SACRIFICE (Jesus) for our sins! Yes we all sin but we cannot except to PRACTICE willful sin and still remain “eternally secure!” This is what is being taught in most “Baptist” sects today and especially expounded by the horrible, yet seemingly “sweet and humble” Charles Stanley. It makes my blood crawl to think of all the people he is leading straight to hell. That is the one you should be rebuking here. He is much more subtle and cunning than Mark Driscoll, who in my opinion is as obvious as a mule on rollerskates in a china shop! (But unfortunately, he does seem to be leading mean astray also)!
Evidently, most of professing Christendom are completely destitute of discernment. We all need to come out of denominational churchianity and FOLLOW JESUS ONLY. “Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches (Jews), He may not spare you either.” Rom 11:21 {Notice that Paul is speaking to SAVED BELIEVERS in this verse}. “And He became the author of eternal salvation unto all those who OBEY Him.” Heb 5:9
When I confronted a pastor and an elder of my church about listening to MD podcasts I was told that he has a powerful message on purity. That is like telling your child you are going to give him a bath then dragging him through the mud. I grew up in that church but had to leave because of the influence men such as MD and RW have had on the leadership. The one thing that this has done for me is to force me to use discernment and to take a stand for truth. Thank you all for taking a stand for truth in this day when war has been declared on it like never before.
It is pretty difficult during these times but it will get worse before the Lord comes. Sometimes, the Lord uses these situations to get our attention so that we will use discernment and stand for the truth. I remember many times how we would talk to the leadership at a church about what they had done but they always seemed to brush it off instead of listening to us. We eventually would leave that church because if they don’t want to hear what the Word of God says then they don’t need us as part of it! As my husband always says, “Whatever reason you have to join a church will be the same reason you leave a church!” We like to become part of a church that stands for the truth and teaches the truth in every area of life. If they don’t, then we leave! Thankfully, my husband is a pastor so we do get to hear the truth taught regularly!
I have beeen a Christian for 13 years now, attended a calvary Chapel here in my city, for tht time, and believed the truth was being taught.
I strugggle with so much, but deep in my heart, I want to seek and please Jesus Christ with all my life. I want to commend you who stand for the truth of Gods word, its refreshing to hear from Christian men and women who dont compromise on the word of God.
I know this may be off the subjest, but I felt the leadership in the Calvary I attended was right on, but was shocked of thier postition on tattoos and body piercing.
They accept this pracice as being a gray or neutral area in the Bible, and even my Pastor said God has tattoos on the palm of His hands, from Isaiah 49-16… so this makes it ok, this is all I will say, as I am not seeking a church now, I do miss the fellowship, and serving in the childrens ministry, but feel the church is compromising big time on this issue.
I know this issue is controversial, but Gods spirit is telling me this practice doesnt belong in the church, we are to be seperate from the world, and I am talking about Christians who are in the church who freely get tatoos, and there is a man at this Calvary who is a tattoo artist, has a business in my towm, giving tattoos,and he is in leadership, and the church leadership doesnt have a problem with it.
Thanks again for helping me to be a real man of God, and not fear being legalistic in my convictions.
Thomas
Your posting is an encouragement and be of good cheer for it is not legalistic to stand against sin. Here, I encourage you to stand firm in your convictions in this area and others where you see sin flooding the church. Tattoos are graffiti carved on the body, which for Christians, is the temple of God. They are an direct attack against a clear command of the LORD where he stated, “Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.” (Lev 19:28)
Of course the LORD forbade such things because they come not from him but rather pagan cultures as the history of tattoos verifies. And you really cannot get much clearer than this verse but as you are seeing that there are many Christians and pastors who can wiggle out of its clear meaning better than Houdini could a straight jacket.
Body piercings follow much the same vain as they are part of the practice of self-mutilation. They make people look like freaks and slaves to sin as they transform their bodies into pin cushions. This because the proponents of such practices are hardly ever satisfied with just one where the piercings (as is true with tattoos) spread all over their body; ears of course, eye lids, tongues, noses, and elsewhere I cannot write of.
In the Scriptures you will find reference to a token for a slave which was a ring in one ear. Here, it is written that the slave’s master was to bring his servant “…unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.” (Ex 21:6)
Yet we know that Christians are not getting a ring through their ear or by extrapolation body piercings because of Ex 21:6. Rather, they are following the course of the world who is their tutor as to how they should dress and what they should do unto their bodies. Musicians, Hollywood “stars”, sports “stars”, etc. are the ones they are mirroring.
And it is only when confronted on such practices that they will furiously search the pages of the Scriptures to find some verse to justify their disobedience and sin. This because so many love the world and do not want to leave it and will do just about anything to not repent of sin. Rather, it is much easier to silence the messenger who brought the message unto them to repent, not unlike what Israel did unto the prophets.
Hi Thomas,
It is always such an encouragement to hear from Christians who are not following the worldly trends in the church. I don’t understand why people who call themselves Christians are still so much in love with the world. They want all the things the world has to offer. Though we are still in the world we are not of the world , so why still long after it. You will be called all sorts of names by Christians as they don’t want their worldliness pointed out. I pray you will continue to grow in your faith and seek only to please our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who gave everything for us.
Thank you Brothers, I am feeling the peace of God, as I experience the loneliness of standing for His truth.
I regret so much in my life as a Christian, and of course as a godless man. it was hard for me to confront the leaders of this Church, but I really studied the scriptures, and was convinced by the Holy Spirit, the Leaders view was not in line with scripture.
I never saw the issue of body piercing and tattoos to be a gray or neutral area of the Bible, and it made me uncomfortable seeing it in this Church, and so accepted, I am so disturbed it took me 12 years, to see this compromise going on there, and now I see all the compromises I was making in my life also.
Jesus paid a high price for us, gave so much more that I can ever give to Him, and again I am ashamed of my lack of discernment, and conviction.
I could never imagine calling a church lukewarm, or liberal, but now I can see it clearly, as I seek His word and wisdom, Jesus is becoming a strong force in my life.
The tattoo issue is just the tip of the iceberg I am afraid, and my friends from the church think I am off line about this issue.
This issue goes much deeper that a tattoo, as brother Michael pointed out, I am so blessed to meet other real Christians who WILL NOT COMPROMISE GODS HOLY WORD, I feel brand new and set free now, and just starting now to grow closer to our savior, Jesus Christ.
Thank you again for your encouragement, and showing your true heart for the real Jesus, I have a lot of ground to make up, still so sick from all my compromises I have made as a Christian,
I am so blessed and thankful, Jesus is so long suffering, I praise His Holy name.
Keep up the good work for standing for the truth, and not seeking your will but the Will of almighty God…………..
The Lord blesses those who will be obedient to His Word by showing them more things in their lives that need to change. A lot of people will look at you as a radical and think you are only trying to cause problems but you must always remember that the Lord is MOST important! No relationship outweighs His no matter what! He paid the ultimate price and we are so thankful to see someone who refuses to compromise anymore! It is a long and lonely road when those around you compromise and you continue to stand but God is faithful. He will never leave you nor forsake you! Just remember that there will always be those men of God who desire the truth and refuse to flinch from it. May the Lord help you to continue to be one of those men from this day on! Thanks for sharing and we will keep you in prayer!
Thomas,
Never stop thinkiing for yourself.
Any pastor who tries to use Isaiah 49:16 as a proof text for tattoos has some serious issues. Oddly enough, his beloved Chuck Smith did not do so in his circa 1980 commentary. Let’s see, has the Word of God changed in the last 30 years? No I don’t think so.
Are we to suppose that this was some sort of hidden message just waiting for the 21st century when tatooes would be common in the culture? Don’t make me laugh!
My theory is the God writes reminders on his palms with a Bic pen. Its a stupid thoery, but more plausible than your pastors. Matthew Henry agrees:
(this alludes) ” to the custom of those who tie a string upon their hands or fingers to put them in mind of things which they are afraid they shall forget”
Some people hae questioned the use of the relevance of Lev 19:28 for Christians. (I don’t.) They miss the point – the real idea behind Lev 19 is “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt. ”
Do tattoos and piercings seem like something of Egypt (the “world”)? Very much so in today’s society, and a disciple would do well to avoid license which causes others to stumble.
Bill Suddeth has written perhaps the best book addressing this issue. I’ll email him with some questions concerning Isaiah 49:16 and report back to the class.
Thank you Bill, and pastors wife, I appreciate your encouragement. Today at work, I was challenged by several so called Christians, who one called me a Pharisee, and judgmental on my stand on the Bible and tattoos, he said I was heading for a cult, and nothing in the bible says tattoos are wrong, and the so called other Christian a woman, said she got a tattoo as a Christian, and I was off my rocker for calling it a sin, and disobedience towards God, they were angry, and I had some scriptures to share, and the woman get very angry at me trying to read Gods word. All three, the other person a non believer, chastised me, and when I tried to walk away, they got angry and made me come back, so what I am seeing is that many so called Christians seem insulted by Gods word, and quick to put me down for my convictions.
This is the first time in my walk with the Lord, I have felt a small bit of what Christ went through during His ministry, and I questioned my faith and motives in this issue.
I am nothing special, just a man, who wants the approval of God over man, as I begin a new journey with my Heavenly father. I know now being a Christian isn’t about my comfort and fitting into the world, by getting a tattoo, or buying into the lies they speak, yes its a battle, and this life is short, and I have wasted so much of it feeling cumfy in my walk, and I am growing closer to our Jesus, and feeling in my heart, what a real Christian is and is not. And that makes Christ’s sacrifice at Calvary so much more amazing and intense in my heart.
Please pray that God would bring some true Christians to my work place, as most have religion, and could care less about Gods Holy word, I hope I haven’t been to harsh in this post, my eyes have been opened to the real Christ of the Bible.
Thanks so much
for your prayers..
Love Thomas
Thomas, Press on dear brother and grow not weary. There are two easily detected areas wherein one gains assurance: do we love the brotherhood of Christ? and does the world hate us?
These things are marks of those who are saved. Proclaiming Christians who defend the world and its values are apostate at best, deceived and hell-bound at worst.
The problem is that the Word of God does convict hearts and because they cannot lash back at God, they will lash out at the messenger! We’ve seen this over and over again in our walk with the Lord. You would expect that believers would want to hear and obey but not necessarily so, especially when they get their toes stepped on. As Manfred said, “Proclaiming Christians who defend the world and its values are apostate at best, deceived and hell-bound at worst.” If they truly loved the Lord then they will realize that they are wrong and seek to make it right. Just because someone calls themselves a Christian doesn’t make it so. Keep standing firm!
If you will google “tattoo Isaiah 49:16″ you will find that, according to the internet (so it must be true) God indeed has tattoos. You will also find that most who have written articles about this presuppose that Tattoos are just fine and then have latched on to this interpetation which is bolstered (only) by the Amplified Bible PARAPHRASE and others who support this viewpoint (watch how many exact phrases are repeated).
It’s an apt illustration about how many will appeal to the bible (only) when it supports their agenda. And so they rely of proof-text using select verses and abandon the whole counsel of God.
In Matt Henry’s day proponents of the pop culture would have told you that this same scripture supported palmisty – divination based on “engravings” in ones hand.
The hyper-calvinist would tell you that this scripture means that God has a list of the elect written on his hands.
Without debating the doctrine of election, can you see how having an agenda affects our reading of scripture?
I’m not a Hebrew scholar, but I can use a Strongs as poorly as anyone. It does appear that the use of the word rendered “inscribed” in the NASB is not common but is not the same as spoken of in Leviticus. It could mean a signet, it could mean a written reminder. It is likely that true scholars will not come to a definite conclusion, because it is not clear.
I think that we can gather that God’s intention in this verse was not to support body art, especially in light of His condemnation of it elsewhere.
Strange then that so many who would speak dogmatically that this verse refers to tattoos would also state, in one instance that God has them on the back (not palms) of his hands, and in another that God has tattoos of our faces on his palms. Faces? Based on what, besides fancy?
Another suggests “indelible.” Perhaps God uses a Sharpie ™ on his hands!
Before we get too literal about this, remember that God not only has palms, He has wings. Selah.
How ugly it is when we try to shape the bible to fit our agenda. Why not read it through God’s agenda?
One scholar renders the Hebrew word for inscribed as “punctured.” How odd, I thought. But what a beautiful prophetic illustration. Jesus was “slain before the foundation of the world.” Many people understand this verse to be prophetically pointing to the nail-pierced hands of Jesus.
So we are left with this choice: The crucified Christ or Todd Bentley. I’ll take Jesus over the pop-culture “hands-down.”
I appreciate so much your encouragement, as I am not used to it, especially on the issue of tattoos for Christians. It just is so sad, as I can truly appreciate what you said, Manfred, These things are marks of those who are saved. Proclaiming Christians who defend the world and its values are apostate at best, deceived and hell-bound at worst.
Most get offended with this statement, and cannot see past their own feelings on this issue as well as others, I feel its a huge compromise on the Scripture, and am seeing it clearly now.
I am boldly proclaiming Christ at my workplace, as I am so ashamed at my timidity over the years, and for once in my life as a Christian, feeling more distant from the world and its practices, I as mentioned before made many compromises over the years, and the Lord is revealing to me, what a true Saint is, and I sure wasn’t, oh yes, I gave my offering, said a lot of prayers, served in ministries, volunteered, and the like, but was very comfortable in the world,and as I stand for Christ, especially so called Christians, think I am way off. Today this Man who calls himself Christian, wanted me to show him verses in the Bible that forbid the practice of tattoos, and I refused, I cant believe he wanted to refute Gods word, about being separated from the world, avoid all forms of evil, and many more, especially Romans Ch. 8-5-12, I wont give him the pleasure he wants to mock God and His Holy word and High standards.
Thanks also for the info on the tattoos, and ISH:49-16, I am thankful to meet brothers and sisters in Christ, who stand for His Holy word, and seek Holiness in their lives, I pray this in my life, and am blessed with these changed in my life.
Love in Christ,
Tommy
Before I had looked into the issue of tattoos I had a friend at work ask me what I thought about them. I told him that I did not have any scripture at that time, but I told him that he may want to ask these questions: “Is it pleasing to God?” “Are you doing it to glorify God?” “Is it honoring God?” So often we get so caught up in the “can we” or “can’t we” that we take our eyes off of the “should we”. When we are looking at the line of morality, what is moral and what is not, we need to realize that we are not looking at God, but at the world. God is in the other direction. If we are focusing on the line, we WILL step over it. God is so holy that we can not go by what is “acceptable” if we wish to please Him.
Truther,
Your reminder that our focus ought to be on pleasing our God, rather than finding loopholes in Scripture is spot-on!
I am reading this book: http://www.amazon.com/Worldliness-Resisting-Seduction-Fallen-World/dp/1433502801/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255523141&sr=8-1
and that’s the whole point of each chapter.
Thank you so much for the information, much appreciated..
Sometimes I feel I am outside of Gods will, being apart from the Church I attended, and I know many of my brothers there feel the same, what advise could you give me now, as there are many Churches here in Tucson, but not sure if they are compromising also. A Christian friend of mine told me I need to be in fellowship, in a Church, even if I didn’t see eye to eye with the tattoo issue, and the church leaders! Another elder in the Church, said he and his family, and the other people in the Bible study I attended didn’t have tattoos also, He thinks they are ugly, so he wants me to join them, I feel again, I am being judgmental, but if he feels they are not for him and his family, why don’t they do anything about the minister who works for a tattoo parlor here in my City?
I feel so separated now, don’t know where to go, praying my heart out for the Lord to bring me to a group of strong believers here in my town. I know my faith in Christ must increase, I am so much more dedicated to reading His word, and learning all I can about the worldly church movement, and the compromises going on in the so called Church.
Alls I know is that I love the Lord very much, and never felt closer to Him, just used to being surrounded by people, and the children I ministered to.
I am single, on my own, and love to teach Gods word without compromise.
Also I have shared Christ more these last few weeks that I have in my whole walk with Him.
But I feel so convicted when I dont witness to everyone I come in contact with. Sometimes I force myself to tell as many as possible, but get distracted, because I work for a large Hospital, and oh so very dark, and Godless, I am sorry to say I haven’t met a real Christian yet.:(
Any advise would be greatly appreciated.
Love in Christ,
Tommy
Thomas,
When I was looking to change churches I first of all prayed that God would lead me to the church He wanted me at. I then met with the pastor of a couple of churches. I asked them what they thought of certain topics like divorce and remarriage, social justice and other hot topics. Just where they stand on divorce and remarriage can tell you a lot about them. Also asked about things like the Shack and Rick Warren and Mark Driscoll. I am fortunate, I have a choice to make between two churches that I feel are sticking to what God says in His Word. Now, the hard part is picking which one to make home.(I prefer one and my wife prefers the other:( Often, I hear of people that have no choice at all of good churches to attend. No matter what, we stay faithful and true. Jesus Christ is the best fellowship we have, but it is nice to have others for encouragement and such. God be with you in your search for true Christian fellowship and teaching.
This post is dumb!!…it’s a waste of people’s time.
Mark Driscoll is a man of God…and not only does he have solid theology….God is using him to influence America towards Christ in such a large margin that not anyone YOU Even know can match upto….He lives what he preaches….and he’s transparent and real with others…
THAT”S WHY non-christians are able to see Jesus and the gospel more clearly…..You guys can keep promoting…”OH Im holy…etc” and I won’t put up with this kinda language and what nots…..PAnzeez
Put your pants on….if your kids heard it on the radio…GOOD!!!
it’s about time they heard it from a pastor rather than 98% of the kidds around them in schools who are using those languages in the wrong while giving [Expletive Deleted] to another at a young age!!!!
You parents are gonna be shocked once your kids grow up..
KEEP your mouths SHUT!
I am surprised at the quantity of foolishness on this web site. Sorry that there are other Christians out there who don’t fit your worldview. Idiots.
Dear “Truth” teller:
You said, “He lives what he preaches.”
That’s what we’re afraid of, and what we’ve been suspecting for a while now!
And perhaps if Driscoll was truly influencing you to Christ (as you suggest he’s doing to America) I would have expected your comment not to be so crude and rude.
Dear Double U Tee Eff:
Perhaps if you aligned your world view to that of the Bible you wouldn’t have chosen such a vulgar screen name and you wouldn’t be so quick to call people “idiots.”
Dear readers:
If you’re wondering why I permitted these two comments from Driscollites to see the light of day, it’s simple: Their crude, profane, vulgar, and rude comments in their defense of their golden calf does more to make my point of what Driscoll’s ministry is producing than a thousand posts we could write.
Thanks fellas; you are the shining fruit of Driscoll’s ministry and the reason my kids will never be around your kids to be influenced by the perversity that you think is acceptable because, after all, your pastor feels it is acceptable to speak in such a manner. And as we all know, the fruit never falls far from the tree.
- The Pilgrim
Truth Teller,
You shoud be ashamed of yourself.
The Pilgrim and Matthew Johnston,
When the conscience has been seared, there is no longer shame to be found in regards to sin. This is why people like Driscoll can preach from the depravity of their hearts and why their followers enjoy listening to vulgarity.
“A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.” (Luk 6:45)
“But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man.” (Mat 15:18-20)
“But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Mat 12:36-37)
Dear Pilgrim,
I have been following the discussion on this page for a while now. I’ve tried to post a comment once before, and since then, I’ve gotten email updates about new comments posted. I’ve read new comments with interest, just to see how the conversation has developed. I now again am interested in posting a comment. Of course, it requires your permission, and this is your webpage, and I understand that I have no intrinsic right to have my comment published.
You allowed two comments to be posted in defense of MD. The creators of those comments obviously are ill-suited to articulate dissent without profanities and vulgarities. Their sentences demonstrate everything that’s wrong with much of education today. They are light on the grammar, heavy on the poorly-conceived opinions. Of course, like most disagreements on the web today, their response is not complete without the required ad-homonym attack, decrying the intelligence and reasoning capacities of everyone who does not hold the same opinion as themselves.
I am inclined to believe that these fellows are no older than thirteen and barely literate. Unfortunately, in all probability, they are in their late teens, and are literate. (I use “literate” in its loosest sense.)
What has moved me to write this comment, however, is not their poor grasp of the English language. It is your generalization of their opinions as the opinions held by all who support MD. One does not have to support MD to recognize the logical fallacy you have employed. It’s called the “straw man attack”, and it is, in essence, the use of an irrelevant issue that is easily attacked to detract from the main topic. The main issue, the main topic of your post, is the theology of Mark Driscoll. It is irrelevant who supports him, or how they vocalize their opinions. It is painfully simple to rip to shreds the opinions stated by our two intelligent and contemplative friends. I am confident that these two posts are not the most articulate opinions you have gathered that are opposed to your views. There are several reasons for creating a straw man; the “straw man” requires much less mental dexterity to defeat. It is “taking the easy way out” of an argument. Another reason is that the real arguments, the persuasive ones, are too much so to deal with.
These challenges are why the fragments of straw men are littered across the political arena in America. It is dirty and hard to deal with facts, reality, consequences (especially the unintended consequences), and in particular, results. The rhetoric-spouting politicians simply denounce a ridiculous opinion, stating their opinion as the only alternative; every sane person understands that the “ridiculous” opinion is so, therefore the only option is to agree with the politician.
So, my request is this: If you are going to allow those who support MD to post, or, if you selectively allow those posts to appear on this comment board, please do not pick those who are simply easy to dismiss. This method is intellectually dishonest, and reflects poorly on the strength of your own argumentation.
Sincerely,
jThompson
Amen, brother Michael!
Dear JThompson:
Thanks for your comment.
Believe me, those two comments are not the only comments we’ve received from Driscollites in which the language, crudeness, and tone was similar to the two above.
As I stated in the original post, I chose to not bother letting Driscollites further spread their “hath God said” comments. It’s pointless. The same old arguments are employed and they refuse to listen to reason or Scripture. So there’s really no point in continuing the argument with those who will blindly follow their leader. There’s nothing we can tell them that they’ve already ignored/dismissed in holy Scripture.
As for the two comments in question, you argue that it’s a straw man, I argue that it’s a fair representation of the many comments we receive in defense of Driscoll that never see the light of day.
Of course you can find educated and articulate defenders of Driscoll, but the comments above are so very common that I would be remiss to not let readers see what kind of comments that we regularly get from Driscoll defenders.
And I see nothing wrong with that.
Sincerely,
- The Pilgrim
JT –
If you want an open uncensored conversation with both sides welcome I’d be happy to host. I have a relevant thread from the summer: (deleted website by editors)
I agree, and yet I find these terms “protitute, whore, etc.” in the bible
reading through the first five books of Scripture gives some pretty harsh language of sexual sin and violent acts. It was mandatory for young Jewish boys to memorize these books. Please someone help me understand why these terms are wrong for a preacher of Scripture, but not wrong to be included in Scripture. No sarcasm honestly asking. For the record I do not endorse Driscoll, I don’t agree with his topics, jokes, and/or methods of getting through to people. Paul preached to Corinth and did not joke with them about sin. It is not necessary to communicate evil to “reach” the world. Yet again as I have been reading through Scripture line by line I’m encountering all kinds of words and issues, and some are pretty harsh, and the people of God were told to teach these things, tell these stories, and remind their young ones of all of these things.
Please don’t label me a Driscollite, I am not. Please read the content, and context of my post, and please help me understand.
on a final note. Is the word “pornography” restricted in church? if yes then how do we address the epedimic?
if no, then he must have said much more, and i apologize
honestly looking for help
Grace and Peace
To the Pilgrim:
As one who has gone around and around with Driscollites, as one who has read nearly all of Driscoll’s books, as one who has listened to enough of his sermons to be repulsed by his blasphemies, false teachings, mockeries of God, Jesus, the Scriptures, and so many antibiblical things he continues to do on an ongoing basis, I support and defend your stand to expose Driscoll for the impostor he is. I have personally attempted to show numerous Driscollites from all throughout the Scriptures, just how Driscoll not only fails miserably to be a Biblical elder or pastor, but is presenting to his followers and the world a false Christ, a false God, a false gospel, and is systematically perverting and destroying the faith once delivered unto the saints. In the course of attempting to merely look at what the Scriptures say, attempting to merely compare Driscoll’s teaching and behavior to the direct, clear, and specific statements in the Bible, I have been met with much the same reaction as was displayed by “Double U Tee Eff” and “truth teller” above. But I would say these two perverse individuals are very, very mild in their reactionary comments. I have been met with such vile hatred the likes of which I would only expect from a person possessed with a foul spirit.
Those Driscollites I have dealt with are in two basic camps: 1) those who are sincerely cluless, ignorant, gullible and are easy prey for those who throw around the name “Jesus” a lot as if that makes their leaders biblically sound, and 2) those who are militant followers of Driscoll, who believe solidly in him, who follow him with cult-like devotion, who have already predetermined to reject any and everything I would show them in the Scriptures. And I have not found these foul, perverse followers of Driscoll to be limited to teenagers. Those who I have dealt with, face to face, are mostly in their 30′s and 40′s. My dear sister, in her late 30′s, who was once a pure Christian woman in thought, behavior and speech, has now become foul mouthed, laughs at and tells vulgar sexual jokes and innuendo, and is also a dedicated disciple of Driscoll since she has begun attending Mars Hill. The youth pastor of my church, a seminary trained man, is also a dedicated follower who now sees the Scriptures as Driscoll defines them. And he is teaching Driscollism to the youth of my church. So, yes, I can personally testify that the above 2 perverse fellows are truly representative of many of Driscoll’s followers.
To JThompson:
You accuse The Pilgrim of engaging in a “straw man” attack. You fail to consider the sheer volume of Driscoll’s spiritual error is far more than can possibly be defined and explained on such a site as this. The Pilgrim’s use of a mere example of the fruit of Driscoll’s “ministry” was not intended to be the end-all proof of such corrupt fruit, but a mere sampling of which he no doubt has a backlog that would fill several books. If you want straw man arguments, look at nearly every one of Driscoll’s arguments in support of his pet doctrines. He has no solid Scriptural support whatsoever, but tragically, he has managed to show just how many thousands who call themselves Christians simply can’t tell his grossly false teaching from the plain truths of Scripture. I wrote my sister a personal letter 60 pages long, of single spaced 11 point Times Roman just comparing some of Driscoll’s biblical errors with Scripture. And that doesn’t even include the footnotes or references. So you see, there simply isn’t room to even begin to address his errors, or to give extensive proof of his the perversities of his followers here at length.
CD-Host:
You’ve already tipped your hand. For those who have read what MacArthur and Driscoll have both said, for those who are well familiar with the theologies of both men, for those who have even a basic understanding of the Scriptures, the cleverly worded commentary on your page betrays a distinct bias against MacArthur and defense for Driscoll that is not even thinly veiled. You misrepresent both men.
For everyone else:
Driscoll isn’t going to go away. His destruction of the faith is only beginning. Each week he stands in the pulpit, and puts out his mixture of deadly spiritual poison (along with the word of God of course to lend credibility), he leads more and more astray. He is raising up a generation who are more than happy to follow their messiah, their high priest of perversity, into the promised land where fleshliness and worldliness can frolic and revel unhindered by the restraints of repentance and sanctification. All under the rallying flag of a tatooed, prize fighting, cool party-going “Jesus”, who is the son of a jokester, prankster, buffoon of a “God” whom Driscoll claims to represent.
Lastly, let’s not forget what God has said about the subject:
“A worthless person, a wicked man,Is the one who walks with a perverse mouth” (Prov.6:12)
“The perverse in heart are an abomination to the LORD” (Prov.11:20)
“To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech.” (Prov. 8:13)
CD-Host,
Why should we direct people to your website when you stand clearly on the side of error? You choose to castigate Phil Johnson & John MacArthur by your words, yet think by offering an “uncensored conversation” that people will come to see what you have to offer.
We are not amused by your flagrant disregard for the truth of Scripture, nor the extremely biased support of Mark Driscoll.
The Desert Pastor
Desert –
Because I stand clearly on the side of free speech. The request was for an uncensored conversation not one whose outcome was predetermined to be in line with my or your “truth”. I would say though that the “side of error” believes in a God that does not flee.
Hi, I haven’t posted here for awhile, but have been tracking the conversation… I remain disappointed that the majority of conversations I find on the internet about Driscoll predominantly focus on his vulgarity and various theological bents–although both of these are important—there seems to be an oversight in honing in on his cult-like oppression and control and what appears to be an abusive church system, as well as his apparent misogyny. But then again, fighting those things is my passion, not everyone’s, and yet they are part of what I see as the evil package with which we are dealing.
Anyway, be that as it may… I wanted to touch base here with those of you who are interested in keeping tabs on Driscoll to call him out on some of his issues because, as I just posted on my blog, I’m taking a new turn in that I’m starting my business and no longer have the time or the energy to keep up on everything Driscoll. But as I wrote on my site [freedom4captives] more importantly, I feel that I’ve been obedient to the Lord in speaking out the truth about that which was presented to me regarding MH & MD. I was responsible for the information given to me. I have made that known on my blog. For me to go further would entail my policing Driscoll–which I’m really not interested in doing.
Driscoll will continue to be Driscoll, meaning, he will continue to be the Driscoll who–until I am informed otherwise–appears to be abusing God’s flock and setting up a system over which he can rule as supreme. That is my take. Based on my perceptions of Driscoll’s behaviors, his words and apparent attitudes toward women and people in general, until Driscoll falls on his knees, weeping and repenting before the throne of grace, and until he allows (the biblical) Jesus, our only true healer of our broken hearts, to reach down and do a deep healing within him, he will continue to act out of his own pain, his own suppressed and repressed traumas. I pray for that day! I pray for Mark.
Dan. 12:10 reads, “Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.”
When we are ruling over a church in the spirit of those false shepherds whom God condemned in Ez 34, we are not pleasing God, we are not evidencing Christ nor His Spirit in our lives, we are not leading as Jesus leads and instructs us to lead, but rather we have become like the gentiles, lording it over one another, seating ourselves in “Moses’ seat.” This kind of dictatorship, similar to that which I perceive in Driscoll and in Mars Hill, is flat out condemned by God in Scripture over and over again! My point is that there are many Driscolls in the world as well as many of those who are on the polar opposite of Driscoll’s legalism, preaching liberal heresies– and all of these will continue doing what they’re doing… but those who submit to the Lord and to His Word, living by His Spirit, must continue doing that, following and obeying the Lord in true holiness despite what others are choosing to do.
2 Tim 3:13-14 “But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of…”
And as I invited on my blog, I want to make the invitation here to please keep me informed if you know of any new important issues or spiritual/church abuse or false teaching at Mars Hill. Please cite the source of your information.
(David W, I would love to see your 60 page rebuttal to Driscoll’s “false teachings.” You may contact me by posting a comment on my site).
I’d like to keep my blog up to date so people can be informed. I would hope that even as it stands my blog has enough information to provoke the wise and wary to do their own research and think twice about committing themselves to what looks to be a very controlling and cult-like church system led by what seems to be a spiritually immature despot (compare Driscoll to 1 Tim 3, and, well, to Jesus!).
Rev 22:11-12 “Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy. Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.”
In Christ and in His Glorious Truth and Love!
FREEDOM!!!
To DavidW I totally agree !
At the risk of sounding “unmacho”, I will say I still remember the story of Little Red Riding Hood. And of the wolf’s manipulation tactics to lure her into his domain. Reminds me of another little story. The wolves continue to manipulate the unsuspecting sheep by saying “let’s walk over to my place and talk. Your shepherd won’t mind, and if He does, what’s He afraid of? Don’t look at the fact that he commands you to beware of wolves in sheep’s clothing, oops, I mean a fellow “seeker of truth”, a fellow believer in “free speech”. Because after all, it’s not my “truth” that matters or your “truth”, but that we both come together to arrive at the truth.” The wise sheep protested “don’t listen, he’s a wolf, he’ll destroy you”. The Shepherd said, “Don’t go, stay with Me in the safety of my protection”. But the foolish sheep harkened to the wolf, left off following their Shepherd, thinking they would be as safe as when they huddled obediently close Him, and were seen no more. The wise sheep did not harken to anyone who spoke contrary to the voice and written words of their Shepherd, and remained close to Him. They lived healthy, strong, safe, and contently the remainder of the long lives.
Think about it.
Dear DavidW:
Unapologetic hostility is the best way to sum up the reaction of many within the Western church when you dare to touch their golden calf. Whether it’s Driscoll, Warren, Piper, Schuller, Bell, Osteen, etc.
I am believing more and more that when the worldwide wrath of persecution against Christians is unleashed, there will be many, many “religious” people “professing Christ” who will be assisting the death squads.
The more vitriol and blind rage I see coming from professing Christians, the more I am convinced that the guy who will be pulling the lever on my guillotine tomorrow, may very well be the guy who sat next to me in church yesterday, and he’ll be deluded into believing that by my execution he’ll doing God a service.
Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus.
- The Pilgrim
Pilgrim,
Your comments are merely recognition of the fact that history repeats. For more than 600 years people who claimed and thought themselves to be Christians tortured and murdered Christians who would not bow to Rome.
Whether Rome or Seattle or any other locale – religious bigots who depart from the Truth will persecute those who refuse to deny the Biblical Christ.
In Christ alone is our refuge, our strong hope, our Jesus who is mighty to save ALL those whom the Father has given Him.
Pilgrim,
I’ve often had similar musings… scary stuff… one can already see forms of persecution coming from various heretical groups who claim Christ but are Christian in name only. I’m thinking of a recent example of the kind of warped thinking which plays into this coming from the notorious Episcopalian church which, in my opinion, has long since CEASED to even be Christian at all (they allow for practicing homosexual bishops, they affirm gay marriage and/or partnerships, they’ve had WICANS as bishops…). The Presiding Bishop, Jefferts-Schori, of this heretical group not long ago stated that it was “heresy” to believe an individual can be saved through repentance and praying to receive Christ as Lord and Savior! She addressed their General Conference in July of this year saying, “the great Western heresy: that we can be saved as individuals, that any of us alone can be in right relationship with God.” She said that view is “caricatured in some quarters by insisting that salvation depends on reciting a specific verbal formula about Jesus.” To her it is heresy for us to believe that an individual’s prayer of repentance to our Lord Jesus can achieve a saving relationship with God. “That individualist focus is a form of idolatry, for it puts me and my words in the place that only God can occupy.” Wow…
Such irony. The epitome of heretics calls those who obey Scripture, heretics. Scripture says woa to those who call good evil and evil good, who take light for dark and dark for light… This bishop received so much flack from true Christian churches regarding HER heresy that she back peddled (as they often do) trying to convince us she didn’t mean what she had said but had been misunderstood… hmmm..
My point, which I think relates here and ties in with what Manfred said about the Catholic persecution of Christians, is that any group, whoever they might be–New Age, Oprah, Emergent, Seeker Sensitive, 40 day’ers (Warren), Traditional “main liners,” etc– which does not adhere to God’s Word and does not submit to the full counsel of God, will, as you rightly say, participate in various forms of persecution of the true Bride of Christ, those blood bought saints who live for Jesus alone and will die for Him. “…to live is Christ, to die is gain,” Phillipians, and “They overcame [Satan] by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony, and loved not their lives unto death,” Revelation. We are an aroma of death to those who are hostile to the real Jesus we know in Scripture. No wonder their extreme hostility when we stand for Truth and for Him who is the Truth.
I am of the opinion that when the heavy persecution hits, tax exempt status of churches will probably be removed, the government through various bills such as the one about “Hate Speech” will dictate what can and cannot be preached from the pulpits, and these two attacks alone could have serious ramifications for the mega “church” organizations… many will perhaps no longer be financially viable… true Christians who have been deceived will leave in droves when they once again here the True Shepherd’s voice, and these megas will shrink to small government run churches and the true church will go underground as they have in China wherein they flourish as house churches. Those Christians are truly willing to die for their faith in Christ.
I’ve been of the opinion for several years that the first real test of most churches would be the denial of charitable status by the IRS. The false converts wold be hard pressed to give without a tangible benefit for themselves.
Manfred,
I believe another test will be when the government persuades churches that to be a “charity” they must fill out paperwork and become incorporated entities. This merely allows the government to pull their “approval” when the church gets to the point where it becomes too big a pain in the government’s regime.
Even the IRS prints rules that show that churches are tax-exempt entities by law and they need NO documentation or articles of incorporation to exist and even to collect offerings from the people of their congregation.
So, when the charity status is pulled, most uninformed church leaders will begin to back down instead of standing for the truth. Instead of standing for the truth no matter what like John Bunyan, they will compromise all for the sake of what they do not understand.
The Desert Pastor
We can debate what’s going to happen in the legal/political arena, but though it makes food for thought, I believe we have concrete spiritual issues already at hand. Sure persecution has come from the hands of religious people against Bible believers for millenia. But I don’t think that was what The Pilgrim was referring to above. This is no repeat of over 1000 yrs or so of Catholic persecution of Bible believers. Those who will be betraying and persecuting Bible believers will not be restricted to those who don’t submit to Rome. Bible believers will be persecuted by someone you go to bible study with. Someone in your own church. Brother will turn against brother, mother against daughter, etc. The spirit of Antichrist will be a spirit of hostility toward anyone who faithfully follows Jesus Christ. We will talk the same “Christian” talk, go to the same church, but such hostility will be in the heart of the false brethren (as Paul called them), that they will be hell-bent on seeing utter destruction come upon the true disciple of Jesus. Because the true follower of Christ will not follow or support the teaching, attitude or mindset that will sweep the churches more and more. Thus the dedicated disciple of Christ will be a hindrance to “unity”, “acceptance”, “peace”, “real life Christianity”, “missional mindedness”, etc., because he will not submit to the unbiblical teachings and practices that will come along with it.
What does Driscoll have to do with all this? He has already begun such an attitude of persecution in nearly all of his books, and not a few of his sermons. He has instigated and nurishes an attitude of hostility toward all who would hold him to account, by labeling us “fundamentalists” and “religious people”, who, with disgust in his demeanor, and shaking of his head, says “are nothing but a joke”. Those who would dare to compare and contrast his errors with the clear teaching of Scripture, he scoffs at as if we were evil, Pharisaic, judgmental hypocrites. So it’s no wonder that his followers don’t want to hear anything we have to say, will not take a serious look at what the Bible says. He has already written us off as “losers”. And thus he has begun, and we see it more and more from the comments of his loyal followers, a division among professing Christians. If you don’t subscribe to his teaching, to his mindset, to his “cool Christ”, you are but a religious pharisee from the past, who will shrivel up and die with the past. Thus his followers not only don’t want anything to do with us, but we are a plague, a leperous sore in the church that needs to be cleansed.
Will Driscoll be the only one behind this? No. He has merely already displayed it. It is the spirit behind him, and certainly behind many others that will drive it.
Persecution? Oh yeah. It’s coming. You can count on it. And it certainly will come from “Christians”. It has already started.
Now for the good news: these things must be. A crown awaits everyone who remains faithful to Christ unto the end. Those who have been faithful to Christ and His word will have an eternity of comfort and joy in His holy presence. “Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled”. “Blessed are they who are persecuted for righteousness sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice and be exceedinglyu glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so they persecuted the prophets which were before you” (Matt. 5)
Amen Desert Pastor. Also, per what Manfred wrote; as I see it the problem with the state-established 501c-3 corporations (called “churches” although this is an oxymoron for the state cannot create the body of Christ) is that there is a tangible benefit. Caesar is no fool because just as the fisherman must sacrifice a worm to catch a fish, so also must Caesar sacrifice a few Federal Reserve Notes in order to catch his fish (i.e. Christians). And this he is more than willing to do since the “money” he gives in tax write-offs and the like is actually not his money but the people’s!
For a few good articles on the 501c-3, I encourage all to check out the following.
http://www.theantichurch.org/501c3churchinfo.htm
http://briansbits.com/non-profit.html
http://unregisteredbaptistfellowship.com/docs/030501state.php
Pray over it, speak to your elders and work to break free from Caesar.
I don’t understand how men, who are supposed to be standing for the truth of God’s word, can so easily step to the side for the sake of a few dollars. Pastors, who are afraid to speak up because it might affect their non-profit status, should not continue to be pastors. Maybe I am biased but I am thankful to the Lord for my husband. He has lost many “friends” because of his stand for the Lord. I would rather have a husband willing to take a stand with few or no friends than to have a husband who refuses to do what’s right because he’s “afraid” he might lose something that’s not really worthwhile anyway! Thankfully, he has refused to have an incorporated church for many years! What a blessing to have a husband who stands firm for the truth of God’s Word!
Desert Pastor’s Wife – You are indeed blessed as are we to hear of your husband’s stand. It is an encouragement to me as it can be a lonely place to stand for truth in areas where few are willing to venture.
It is a lonely place, brother Michael, but not as lonely as what it seemed at one time. As God told Elijah that he had 7000 prophets who had not bowed the knee to Baal so He has His men set apart willing to follow Him regardless of the cost! As my husband follows the Lord and takes a stand, so too, I see many men on here willing to do likewise and it greatly encourages us in the Lord! It is indeed a blessing to know that men throughout the world are seeking to serve the Lord even if it means few to no friends wherever they may live. As I have been reminded over and over again, the Lord uses this lonely place to keep us dependent on Him! Keep serving the Lord, men, and may you have the peace that passes all understanding in the midst of everything!
Amen to that.
Desert Pastors Wife
That is what the Lord is teaching me, total dependence on Him. He is pulling away all props. It is a hard lesson. My daughter told me last week that I’m too black and white in my faith, with no gray areas. My other daughter totally agreed. Though I only live 4 streets away from my daughter I rarely see her. Then my doctor who is known as a Christian man, and is one of the nicest, kindest men I have ever met, tried to tell me it’s not the teachings in the church that matter but the people, so I guess more like a social club. On one hand it’s incredibly lonely, on the other I am so blessed. I do not consider myself a very spiritual person as I know my heart. The Lord in His grace and mercy opened my heart to see the deceptions in churches and holds me safe in His arms. He is faithful and has never let me down. My favourite chapter is John 10 for then I am assured. I believe full on persecution would be easier than this,as it at least is in the open
to TawfiQ Cotman-El:
You asked:”Please someone help me understand why these terms are wrong for a preacher of Scripture, but not wrong to be included in Scripture.”
I appreciate your honest inquiry. Yes, God does use some terms in His word such as “harlot”, etc. So is it wrong for a preacher to use words that are in the Scriptures? Not if he is honestly preaching what God has said, in context.
For instance, God does warn young men to stay clear of an adulterous woman in Proverbs. He goes on to say they intice with their soothing words, but they lead you to destruction. That is good advise. It is from God, and there is nothing wrong with warning young men to avoid prostitutes. It is wrong for a preacher to use that as an excuse to throw around the most vulgar sexual innuendo, and appeal to basal sexual interests, in the manner that Driscoll is famous for doing. God does not tempt to sin, nor does He condone tempting others to sin.
Concerning things like the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, God presents us the fact that the whole city had become so perverse, they had become homosexuals. He destroyed them as an example to show how He hates such perverse sexuality. There is nothing wrong to teach this. But if a pastor engages in sex jokes along with the story, then he is sinning because such joking is specifically forbidden in God’s word.
Likewise, there is nothing wrong with using the word “pornography” per se, when it is referred to as something to be avoided like the plague. The problem is, when so called “pastors” like Driscoll say on the one hand, “yeah, it’s wrong”, then in another sermon, and in his book, says “my barber has some of the finest porn in my city”, then says he also takes his young son there, he sends a seriously conflicting message. How would he know which is “finer” than another? Is it wrong to look at or isn’t it? Or, why is it wrong for us, but not for him? If it’s so wrong and evil, why does he expose his young son to it? God is not the author of such confusion, nor does the Holy Spirit lead in such a way.
Driscoll is famous for attempting to justify vulgar sexual jokes, “scat” humor, etc., by saying he is just following God’s example. He then perverts many of the Scriptures, then says “that’s what God said, so don’t blame me if you are offended by my words or my humor”. Fact is, God’s word doesn’t even come close to saying what Driscoll says it does. For instance, Driscoll utterly blasphemes, twists and shreds God’s word in his sermon on “Humor”. Of the many blasphemous things he teaches his flock, he goes on and on ad nauseum about Noah being drunk in his tent like some redneck on vacation. He mocks Jesus, mocks God Himself, making jokes about what cool party dudes they are, and on and on. After such utter wicked blasphemies, he tells his flock, you see, God is very humorous, so we should be too. With that foundation laid, he freely interjects the vilest, perverse sexual jokes into his sermons. This behavior is specifically forbidden in God’s word.
Let us always remember, God is righteous and holy, so He does not use profanity, nor coarse jesting (dirty jokes and dirty slang), nor any such perversity. That would be against His own specific commands in His own word. What God does give us is instruction on what is His will, and what is not His will. Any so called “pastor” who tells dirty jokes, who elaborates beyond the limits of Scripture which tempts one to sinful thought, who speaks or teaches contrary to the clear commands of Scripture, such as Driscoll does, is not a true pastor of God’s flock.
Hope that helps.
DPW
Pro 18:24 A man with many companions may come to ruin, but there is a friend who sticks closer than a brother.(RSV)
Amen! Keep looking to the Lord!
Modesty is a virtue. Have we forgotten?
this post goes on and on.. : )
does anyone know where I can listen to or read some of the questionable things Mark has said?
My sister-n-law and her husband like him. I would like to be able to hear what he has said himself but, I don’t want to have to sit through all of his sermons to pick out his questionable comments.
then again, his speaking at Crystal Cathedral should be enough to make people wonder about him. I haven’t heard that message either. I have heard enough from Robert Shculler, however you spell his name, to know that I would stay far away from him.
Go figure, I left one denomination that idolizes the likes of Bentley, Hinn, Copeland, and Hagin. To a denomination that idolizes the likes of Warren, Driscoll, and the rest. I guess I shouldn’t lump the whole denominations in together, I guess I should say that a lot of the people in these denominations idolize these guys.
shane:
You asked: “does anyone know where I can listen to or read some of the questionable things Mark has said? My sister-n-law and her husband like him. I would like to be able to hear what he has said himself but, I don’t want to have to sit through all of his sermons to pick out his questionable comments.”
Honest question and honest inquiry. If you’re looking for a shortcut, some site that runs down a list of all the quotes he has made that are contrary to the Scriptures, I really don’t know any. As I said above, I wrote a 60 page letter to me sister, who has also been deceived by Driscoll, just countering some of his errors. Closest thing I can recommend is to go to the top of this page and type “Mark Driscoll” in the search field, and read the documentation given here. Also, do a similar search on Phil Johnson’s “Pyromaniacs” site. Check out also what John MacArthur has documented on what Driscoll teaches on the Song of Solomon, and the links he gives. That one subject alone should turn your stomach.
I can tell you personally, after slogging through his books and tons of his sermons, he is very, very good at mixing solid biblical teaching in with such unbiblical perversity (and I’m not just referring to sexual jokes and innuendo, but the perversity of blasphemy, poking fun at the things of God,, etc.), that for the unsuspecting it’s like eating an average looking meal that you don’t find out till later was laced with some rather heavy doses of arsenic. Tragically, it appears many haven’t yet found out about all the arsenic they have already eaten from his hand.
If you do read his stuff, or listen to him, be on guard spiritually, and have a rock solid hold on your understanding of God’s word, the character and holiness of God, what repentance and personal holiness of the Christian is, what having renewed minds is (particularly about bringing every thought captive unto Christ). The fact that he has tens of thousands of followers who are so willing to overlook his perversities and blasphemies, and follow him so dedicatedly anyway, should give indication just how polished he is at telling people what they want to hear. But the fruit born by so many of his followers betways what spirit is working through him.
I like your comment:
“Go figure, I left one denomination that idolizes the likes of Bentley, Hinn, Copeland, and Hagin. To a denomination that idolizes the likes of Warren, Driscoll, and the rest. I guess I shouldn’t lump the whole denominations in together, I guess I should say that a lot of the people in these denominations idolize these guys.”
What you have seen is part of the sad state of Western “Christianity”. Too many church goers check their minds at the door, check their God-given discernment at the door, and blindly follow whatever comes over the booming speakers, nodding in agreement along with everyone else.. This is not God’s way for his children, nor what He wants us to do. He tells us right in His word “do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits”. Paul warns, if anyone preaches another “Jesus” or another gospel, they are to be accursed and we are not to follow them. Paul even warns believers to test him, or even an angel from heaven. People aren’t doing this, and it’s very evident.
The only way to be protected from spiritual deception, is to know God’s word well, submit to it, and test all things by it.
I forgot about John Macarthurs message on MD. I can’t believe I did that. I will have to download it and listen to it.
I have spoken against Benny and like before and have people look at me like I had an arm growing out of my head. It will probably be the same thing speaking out against these other guys as well.
I was talking about Joel Osteen denying Jesus as the only way on Larry King and one of my aunts tried to defend him. she was saying stuff like “he is in front of a lot of people and doesn’t want to offend” and blah, blah, blah. I told that is the problem is that he is in front of so many people saying such rediculous things.
It is an interesting time we live in to say the least. I just hope my church doesn’t try to become to “relevent” or “purpose driven”.
Hey Shane, glad to hear you spoke out against Benny and Osteen. Right on! Pray for your church, your pastor, your loved ones. We really do live in a time when lots of sincere, trusting people are being led astray.
You wrote “Shame on Mark Driscoll for using the pulpit to advance his insatiable lust of the flesh for all things sexual.”
If you truly listened to Pastor Driscoll’s sermons, you would know that was not true. If you truly realized the prolific problem that porn and sexual sin is in our society, you would also confront it, just as Jesus confronted the Pharisees.
I respect that you do not want your children to hear talk of porn and sexual sin at that age, but as Pastors it is also something that should not be ignored and it is something that needs to be confronted if you truly want to carry the Light of the Gospel into a world shrouded in darkness.
Ed,
Thanks for stopping by. I want to make two quick points.
First, when Jesus confronted the Pharisees, He made it a point to always deal with the issues of the heart. He pointed out that the biggest problem they were having was not what was on the outside, but what was on the inside. During every account the Lord Jesus Christ, He NEVER resorts to becoming vulgar and terms of sexual titillation in order to point out the problems which were an issue even during the days He walked on this earth. Sexual immorality has been an issue almost since the time of the Fall in the Garden of Eden.
Second, it is my hope that you did not mean what you said or the way you stated it when you said that porn and sexual sin “should not be ignored and it is something that needs to be confronted if you truly want to carry the Light of the Gospel into a world shrouded in darkness.”
In all the times that I have read through the New Testament, I have yet to find one time where carrying the Light of the Gospel involves anything other than preaching the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. There is not one written account where vulgarities and sexual innuendos are included in a message in order to be “hip, cool, and relevant” so that people can then be “brought to Christ.”
A person who is truly brought to repentance by the working of the Holy Spirit does not need vulgarities and sexual high-school locker room messages to understand his depravity. And the pastor who thinks this is cool and necessary in this day and age has a very faulty understanding of Scripture, needs to repent himself and get his own mind out of the gutter, and leave the ministry as he has proven himself to be unfit and unworthy of that high calling.
To conclude, we have listened to Driscoll’s sermons, probably far too many. He is wrong before God and is an embarrassment to the true believers of Christ and the ministry. He has disqualified himself from ministry.
The Desert Pastor
Desert Pastor,
I don’t believe a man that is saving souls and bringing people into a relationship with God and Jesus disqualifies himself from ministry, because you disagree with how he delivers his message. Many disagreed with how Jesus and his apostles delivered God’s message as well. I would prefer to let God judge him rather than you. I believe Pastor Driscoll is reaching out to sinners which is exactly what Jesus did and confronting them harshly it may seem for their sin. I have found nothing in his sermons where he glorifies sexual sin, but rather confronts it and exposes it by bringing it into the light. Sin grows in the dark, but Christians are called to live in the light. I believe this is the purpose of him speaking about it, not as you say to be “hip, cool, and relevant”.
I mean no disrespect to you or your ministry, but I fear for our world of sinners and believe that Pastor Driscoll is saving souls and should not be condemned for that. You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. (Matthew 5:43)
Ed ~
http://thechristianworldview.com/tcwblog/archives/1640
I suggest you read what that website, in which they are using sources to back up what they are saying, about Mark Driscoll. It is some of the most disgusting vile garbage I have read and heard. Driscoll has actually said that the vile Chris Rock actually helped him become a better preacher. Disgusting.
I stopped attending a Church here where I live because of their support of this man.
Your stuff about Driscoll saving souls sounds is very unbiblical. By no other name are we saved than by the name of Jesus Christ. Christ saves, sinful man does not.
Lastly, when it comes to the topic of sexual immorality in the Church and with judging it, I would suggest you read the 5th chapter of 1 Corinthians.
Ed:
I have listened to months and months of Mr. Driscoll’s sermons, and I’ve read 5 of his books. I have personally heard him make masturbations jokes, penis jokes, sexual intercourse jokes, both from the pulpit and in this books. For example, one of his sermons was OK, until he began talking about one church which spent a huge amount of money on a church organ. At that point, he interjects the joke “not a bigger or longer organ, something you really need…”. God has specifically forbidden this sort of stuff in His word. Mr. Driscoll has a long standing teaching on oral sex, and he is on record of having repeatedly taught that if a woman does not perform and “serve” her husband with oral sex, she is sinning against God and needs to repent. That is totally unbiblical, and flagrant exploitation for the man’s benefit. I can list for you numerous more examples of his explicitly unbiblical teachings. Have a good look at Eph. 4:17-29, Eph. 5:3-12, Col. 3:5-10, and all through the book of Proverbs. You will see numerous condemnations by God of the very things Mr. Driscoll is doing.
All the insistance that he is “leading people to Christ” is rendered irrelevant, because he is specifically engaing in sin, and that from the Pulpit! Not because I say so, God has specifically said so. All one has to do is compare Driscoll’s specific word with Scripture.
“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles? And I will proclaim unto them, depart from Me you who practice iniquity, I never knew you” (Matt. 7:22-23).
So we see, according to Jesus Himself, it doesn’t matter to Him what “good works” we do in His name, nor what our intentions are. If we are doing what He specifically forbids, we are not His (despite calling Him “Lord”).
Furthermore, the “Jesus” Mr. Driscoll claims to be leading people to is a “Jesus” that has the same name, but whose description and character is contrary to the Jesus which is described in the Scriptures. The party going, prize fighting, tattooed, “punch you in the nose dude”, D.J. “Jesus” of Driscoll is nowhere found in the Scriptures, but is the “Jesus” Driscoll wants everyone to come to. I could go into length on that, but others have already testified to it on this site and many others.
David T,
Thanks for posting that link.
It is by far the best critque of Mark I have read.
{I posted it at my blog}
I cannot believe this guy!
David T Yea thanks for that link. My stomach is turning after reading it. How MD can say “this is where the comedy begins” about Genesis is disgusting. I have read through Genesis many times, and have failed to see it as comic. I look on God’s plan for a Savior, and I marvel. In CH.6 I see “then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord was sorry that He had made man and He was grieved in His heart. He said I will destroy man from the face of the earth” v5-7. I see many more people some good, mostly bad. I rejoice that my Father is patient, faithful, does not change, is full of grace and mercy. MD laughs at Noah getting drunk, yet Ham was cursed for the same thing. What’s funny about the fall or the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. This man disgusts me! He tries to show how macho he is by putting everybody else down. I will keep the post so if I come across his fans I will show them
you’re a [Expletive Deleted] idiot. How’s that for course language?
More fruit of Driscoll’s ministry no doubt.
Thanks for further proving my point Ezekiel.
Why cant some of you see just how self righteous and legalistic you sound in your writings ? Most of you sound so intrenched in legalistic thought that there is probably nothing that anyone could possibly write or say to help you see this. For a people that so whole heartedly believe that they have the market cornered on Truth, how can you be so blind. And to boot, its usualy someone from a ‘reformed’ church that attacks so vehimently. What a shame.
Dan Shaw,
Do you know what legalism is? It is the concept that one can gain God’s favor by keeping the law. Exhorting professing Christians to obey everything the Lord has commanded is NOT legalism – it’s biblical instruction and obedience to God’s Word.
Please show us where legalism – properly defined – is being taught or promoted on this site.
Dan Shaw-
Let’s view this in light of scripture…the Bible makes it clear that profanity has NO PLACE in a Christian’s life, nor do I find in scripture any sermons given to the body of Christ that deal with sexual content. Why is that? Could it be because little children should not be subjected to such messages?
This is found in Ephesians 4:29, ‘Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.’
We also find this passage from Colossians 3:8, “But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.”
In light of these verses, how do you defend Driscoll, using God’s word as you do so?
Can you give me an example from the Bible where any of the Apostles, or Christ Himself, preached on the subject of sex to a gathering of believers?
Do you believe God’s word is the absolute guideline for all who claim Christ, especially those who claim to be called to preach?
Thank you
lyn
Didn’t Paul write to the Corinthians about Sexual practices. Doesn’t it also say in scripture that wives and husbands should not abstain sexually from each other? What about the song of Solomon? What about many sexual passages in the Bible.
I would like answer to a couple of questions.
1. Doesn’t the passage say any UNWHOLESOME talk? How do we determine what is unwholesome talk? As dictated by the current morays of our culture? Also…why is unwholesome talk considered to be sexual talk? Couldn’t unwholesome talk be spewing hatred etc?
2. Why is it not ok to preach about sex from the pulpit? Is it ok to preach about gossip? What about murder?
Sex is a very important part of our lives. It is natural and it is ordained in certain contexts. Why can’t it be talked about? Sex is also very powerful in our culture for non ordained reasons also. Shouldn’t we be preaching about it? Why is it bad to preach about porn from the pulpit?
Why is it ok for your kids to hear about murder but not sex?
Again, I ask for scriptural references where sex was preached to a gathering of believers where children were present. Yes, there are many passages addressing sex, within the covenant of marriage as well as that of immoral behavior…BUT, this was not taught as a biblical message presented to a body of believers and their children.
In reference to Eph. 4:29, the KJV says ‘corrupt communication’; corrupt comes from the Greek ‘Sapros’, meaning ‘of poor quality, rotten, unfit for use’-communication comes from the Greek ‘logos’, meaning ‘the sayings of God’. If you are claiming to be speaking the sayings of God, that should not include vulgar sensual language. If that passage does not make it clear, Colossians 3:8 leaves little doubt. The word filthy comes from the Greek word ‘aischrologia’ and means ‘foul speaking, low and obscene speech’.
One of the clear indications of a false teacher is their sensual messages, Jude addresses this in verse 19, ‘These be they who separate themselves, sensual {the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion}, having not the Spirit’- the messages they preach reveal the fact that they do NOT have the Spirit of God, which means they are not born again.
Does a five year old need to hear about masturbation,porn, or oral sex? Does a five year old need to hear about sexual maneuvers, or how to please your mate? NO!!! If a couple is having sexual issues, they need to go to their Pastor in private for counseling. If a Christian is caught up in sexual sin, it needs to be addressed as per Matt. 18. Outside of this, there is no biblical basis for sex to be preached from the pulpit. We all know porn is a sin that infiltrates believers as well as unbelievers,that’s why God gave us biblical guidelines to follow concerning sinful matters such as this. However, we should not be subjected to inappropriate language or topics as a method of shock from the pulpit, it all must be kept within the realm of what the bible teaches.
When a child has reached the age of understanding concerning sexual behavior, it is the parents responsibility to teach their children the biblical guidelines for sex, NOT a Pastor during a Sunday morning sermon. Same goes for murder, stealing, cheating, etc. God will guide parents when the timing is right to instill these truths in our children.
We should tremble at God’s word, instead, here’s how Driscoll approaches Holy Writ…
‘In his series on humor, the New Testament also gets a Driscoll face lift. Without shame, he turns the issue of circumcision found in Galatians 5 into a crude “cut off your pickle joke.”
Driscoll sets the stage for more mocking of Scripture by describing the Old Testament as “a redneck hillbilly comedy.” He finds humor in Jacob, Aaron, Moses, Job, Jeremiah, and Noah. For example, he undermines the seriousness of the messages of Jeremiah, a prophet of God, by describing him as someone “who cries like a newly crowned beauty queen all the time.” He laughs at Noah for getting drunk and ending up naked in his tent, and then compares him to “some redneck on vacation.” Why would Driscoll find amusement or pleasure in seeing Noah’s dignity reduced or undermined?
In light of Driscoll’s comments, it is interesting to recall the biblical account of the reaction of Noah’s three sons. Unlike the response of his son Ham, the other brothers “turned away and they did not see their father’s nakedness”…and surely they did not laugh. On the other hand, for Ham and his descendents,… his response came with a high price. http://www.marshillchurch.org/media/religionsaves/humor
You may read more at this link from a prior post provided by David T, http://thechristianworldview.com/tcwblog/archives/1640
Dear unworthy1:
Don’t hold your breath waiting for Scriptural support for this behavior.
Dear moberti:
Your comment was approved by another editor, otherwise it wouldn’t have been approved by me. Why? It’s quite simple.
Besides my explanation in the original post I will add that you (and many other Driscoll defenders like you) keep using erroneous “logic” in defense of your man. Your primary argument can be summed up like this:
The Bible mentions sex, so therefore all the foul-mouthed, potty-mouthed, vulgar, profane, double entendres, sexual innuendos, explicit language, juvenile gutter humor, and locker room conversations that come from Driscoll’s mouth are fair game!
Those who try to equate (with a straight face) the manner in which the subject of sex is handled in the Bible with that of the open sewer of smut that comes out of Driscoll’s mouth, exhibit a woeful ignorance of holy writ.
I do not have the time to waste arguing the obviousness of this point with those who wish to have their ears tickled with sex-talk and drag the beautiful Word of God into the gutter to support their carnal desires.
With all due respect,
- The Pilgrim
Thanks for the post, Pilgrim. I’ve been hearing a lot about Driscoll lately, and this really helped make things clear for me, about what kind of person he is. Personally, I think that there is nothing wrong with teaching about sin and man’s fallen nature, HOWEVER, his way of talking and presenting sin is EXTREME, and wrong. The Bible makes plain, without being crude, crass, or causing people to sin, what sin is. There are ways of communicating that filthy, perverted sin is sin, without going into all the gory details. Mr. Driscoll would be well served to read his Bible and see just how well the scriptures communicated this. Needless to say, I don’t think that I will be watching any of his youtube vids anytime soon, or ever, for that matter.
To me it is such a shame that we have to spend more time defending the real gospel to folks in the church to fight this present craziness , than we do in promoting the gospel to unbelievers. That shouldn’t be, but seems to be the reality of our times.
While we have to do it to keep folks straight, I wonder if THEY (aka Mark Driscoll and peers) realize how much they are not contributing to the real truth as scripture tells it, vs their brand of a ‘culturally relevant gospel going forward. A question I wrestle with all the time.
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/
Hey I noticed this website, it seems a bit in tune with the thinking on this website. However they say you have to read the king james version of the bible and claim that CS lewis and Paul Washer are heretics-I thought they were both biblically sound so finding it all confusing. So I shouldnt listen to Mark Driscoll, John Piper according to you because they’re dodgy but is it still safe to listen to Washer? How is it possible to discern correctly?
and – That website has some good information but the owner, David J. Stewart, is rabidly free-will. Hence, I would not recommend it at all except if you want to do research on music and things like that. He also attacks a strawman of Lordship salvation. You might want to check out: http://davidjstewartexposed.blogspot.com/ and http://www.blogcatalog.com/blogs/david-j-stewart-exposed.html. I cannot vouch for them and post for info. purposes alone for people to research.
As far as who we can listen to, we are all free to listen to whom we choose. Hopefully in time as one matures in the faith, they will be able to discern false teachings and false teachers. Something which honestly every believer needs to do on their own, but many do not and rather hold solely to a given denomination’s beliefs, or those of their favorite teacher, preacher, etc. That is, preacher x said it, so it must be true. Something you will find a lot the “bigger” the preacher gets.
If the owner of that site flags Paul Washer (I have not verified it) as you say, I would assume the reason is based on Paul’s Calvinistic beliefs and possibly because Paul speaks a lot about how our works must give evidence to our faith. That is, faith without works is dead.
Hold fast to the Word and God and don’t lose heart. The days are indeed dark but Jesus will not leave us nor forsake us.
Regarding Mark Driscoll and his impecible doctrinal beliefs (I say this with a little sarcasm), I have a question. Who were some of the first to recognize Christ for who He was, His life, ministry, Lordship, and rule as future Judge and King? It was not his own His disciples as you might think. It was the demons crying out of the possessed when Christ came into their midst. James says in his letter “You believe there is one God? Good. Even the demons believe and tremble.” Have you ever considered, in reference to the demons, that their theology is probably about as correct as it gets, but they still chose to rebel against God, and still do. This is not judgment on Mark Driscoll, it is only a response to what I have frequently heard from those who defend him as legitimate because he has “sound doctrinal beliefs”….And to that I say, so do the demons… James also said that any man who does not bridle his tongue, this mans religion is useless. There is a difference between struggling and striving against being vulgar, and full-on embracing it so as to be “relevant.” And there is a difference between a baby Christian and a mature Christian who has learned to put off these things and put on the new man created according to the image of God in true righteousness and holiness. Driscoll has repented from some former misteps years ago, but even in some of his most recent writings he mocks at Christ’s sinless perfection and total obedience to the Father, just read Vintage Jesus, he is unashamed to call Jesus a clepto-looting-bipolar in need of praxil-partying-workaholic. It’s shameful. And this doesnt even begin to address the sexually explicit sermons detailing every kind of sexual position and even referring to websites where you can find diagrams and sex toys… Concerning his continuing vulgarity and crude joking, Ephesians 5 says such things should not even be named among the saints when it comes to coarse jesting and foolish talking, among other things, and that those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom, and will in fact cause the judgment of God to fall on the sons of disobedience; and furthermore that we are not to be partakers or partners with them. Is this legalism or biblical? To all you “legalism” stone throwers out there, It’s not legalism if the Gospel of Jesus Christ says it. Also, if you’re a married man, and you’re going to let other men talk so sexually explicit around your wife and children, don’t tell me you understand biblical manhood. No man calling himself a brother is going to speak in such a way to me, especially in the presence of my wife, without hearing a rebuke. If Mark Driscoll wants to show he is truly convicted to live out real biblical manhood, let him show it by purifying his mouth.
Brad:
Right on! We know them by…their words? NO, but by their fruit. “They that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts”. Driscoll continues to display the very opposite of Godly fruit, and grossly so.
The deceived followers of Driscoll insist he is “reaching the lost for Christ”. My question is: what Christ? The Christ of the Scriptures? Not according to Driscoll’s description of Jesus (as you have noted above, and as I and others have also noted on this blog). Since Driscoll is not preaching the Jesus of the Scriptures, he presents a different Jesus, to the lost. Giving them a false sense of eternal security. He is thus preaching a different gospel, leading many away from the true Christ and only means of salvation. Which makes him not a true Christian at all, but a false teacher (despite his mixture of orthodoxy with his errors – a practice forbidden all through Scripture by the way) and a minister of unrighteousness. His Mars Hill enterprise is thus nothing but a false “church”, a cult, which perpetuates his false teachings through their “missional” activities and “church” planting network.
Pray for the deliverance of the Driscollites, that the Lord will mercifully open their eyes to their error, and to the truth of His holy word.
I just heard an online sermon on birth control by Mr. Driscoll and when I came to this part,
I was very saddened and discouraged. We homeschool because of our conviction that God wants us to train our children ourselves, all day long. We don’t think we’re better than other people. There was clapping throughout his talk. I really don’t appreciate that he thinks being funny is reason to be mean.
freida,
Are you kidding? As much disgust as I have for what I’ve seen and heard from Driscoll, I am sitting here amazed at the arrogance and ignorance of that statement! That fellow should be bound and sat down in the middle of the Texas Home School fair this Spring. He would learn something – like what the Bible says about the fathers teaching their children, not the schools!
He should start by reading this short article: http://www.voddiebaucham.org/vbm/Blog/Entries/2009/6/25_Top_Five_REasons_Not_to_Send_Your_Kids_Back_to_Govt._School.html
He’s got to make fun of someone to be edgy and relevant and cool. Sarcasm is the favorite tool of modern day “Christian” speakers. He can’t make fun of reformed folks, because they give him his base of credibility, so he’s on the fundamental-bashing bandwagon. One of his “New Year’s Resolutions” posted on his site was to start “making fun of fundamentalists.”
Dear Freida:
First I want to say that I am sorry that you were subjected to the poison of Mark Driscoll. He seems to be seeping into every corner of evangelicalism lately, and sometimes it feels as if we on DefCon are the few left who have not bowed the knee to this Golden Calf.
Secondly, has anyone else noticed how MD and his supporters attack anyone who dares hold him to the light of Scripture (or anyone else he/they don’t like)? They love to call anyone who questions their leader names (including Pharisees and judgmental), yet not a peep is heard from them when MD stands in judgment of others that he (and by extension) his followers don’t care for, as well as ridiculing, disrespecting, and mocking them (because they’re apparently not edgy, hip, and cool enough).
What blatant hypocrisy!
Finally, Freida, I want to welcome you to DefCon, you are among friends, brothers, and sisters here. We take a lot of heat for our stance against the profane, mocking Driscoll, as well as our belief that the education of our children is the responsibility of parents, and not the secular governmental behavioral engineering centers.
Welcome.
- Pilgrim
P.S. Hey Ministry Addict, do you have a link to that “honorable” New Year’s resolution?
A “New Year’s Resolution” to START making fun of fundamentalists? He’s had a crusade against fundamentalists calling them “very scary”, “fearful”, “wingnuts”, wierdos”, nutjobs” and a whole litany of other derogatory terms, slanders and false descriptions for years. Not just in his sermons, but in most of his books. Mr. Driscoll goes so far as to call those who “speak of evangelism in terms of outreach” as “self-righteous people” who need to “repent”, “because it implies we are not embracing the lost but keeping them at arm’s length”, and their “reaching out” is like a boxer “reaches out” to his opponent with his fist (Radical Reformission, p.78).
In “Vintage Jesus” Mr. Driscoll further stigmatizes Fundamentalist Christians by “theological” argument. He says they (as a group) accept Jesus as Prophet and King, but not as Priest. Then says because of that, they hold Jesus as someone who is somehow unconcerned, and untouchable, resulting in them being (among other things) “hateful”, and “despairing”.
In his “Vintage Church” (p.289) he says the Fundamentalist vision is that they see the world has “hopeless and dark”, that they are “fearful”, and that they separate themselves from the world so as not to stain their personal holiness. That they “abhor” the culture around them, are “mean” people, and do nothing to (benefit) the culture.
These are all seriously false, blanket statements against entire groups of true Bible-believing, God-fearing Christians, and is condemned in Scripture.
His tactic is simple. Once he has so stigmatized “fundamentalists” as to be the veritable religious retards (and dangerous at that) of Christendom, then anyone who would hold him to the authority of the Scriptures are…you guessed it…”fundamentalists”. Thus he has effectively pre-emptively isolated and dispensed with any critics who would hold him accountable, or who would take serious objection to his teaching, behavior, or methodology based upon the standard of God’s word.
Then he says “it’s all about Jesus”. Don’t buy it!
“He that justifies the wicked, and he that condemns the just, both of them are an abomination to the Lord.” (Prov. 17:15)
“# New Years Resolution #6 – I resolve to make fun of fundamentalists for fundamental reasons. 1:10 PM Feb 2nd via HootSuite”
I’m not involved in twitter, but my former pastor was. Somehow I linked from his site to Driscoll’s. This is the only link I have, but you have to scroll down through a lot of vanity and foolishness b/c it’s a post from Feb. Look for it at your own risk. I don’t want anybody to accuse me of linking them to something worldly or inappropriate.
http://twitter.com/PastorMark
And as someone often accused of being a fundamentalist, DavidW, I take exception to the term “religious retard.” I prefer to be called “educably slow.”
Ministry Addict:
You should take exception to such a term, as such is a terrible insult to anyone. And that’s my point.
I thank God for all who still hold strongly to the fundamentals of the Faith once delivered. If that makes me a fundamentalist, then I will gladly be called one.
DavidW: Sorry, I meant that to be kidding. I didn’t really take exception.
DavidW said:
Very astute and well said brother.
I agree that many have taken the sacredness out of the Word of God. I am not sure that I am quite as upset about this as the many above, however I understand the concern behind the comments.
I think that the gospel can be presented at a “real” level that refers to the life that many live in this present age without compromising the truth (absolute truth) that is present only in the Word of God.
I am not sure that the wayward direction of the “church” is one of purpose or of ignorance, but we do have a responsibility as fathers (and mothers) to protect those in our direct responsibility (and privilege) – our kids.
Thanks for all the comments, been challenging, disappointing and encouraging, all at the same time!
I am so in love with Him…
I don’t know much about Driscoll, though I have to admit I’ve seen some of his snippets on Youtube. He calls himself as an “emerging reformer.” Well..he does sound emerging, but not reforming to me.
My wife and I went to MH once about 3 years ago. Their handling of communion was appalling. They played hoedown music throughout, and seemed intent on removing all traces of reverence. Someone should take him out to the woodshed.
Right on Brother!
Proof positive that so-called “correct theology” is meaningless unless it results in a changed life.
I posted that Christian Worldview article as part of the problem I had with Driscoll; an acquaintance of mine on Facebook mentioned rollerblading while listening to Driscoll. My acquaintance did the whole “context” argument, and concluded with this troubling statement:
Another friend of my acquaintance wrote the following (I chose to censor it):
****
Back to Dee’s commentary:
A Christian needs to grow up because they take offense at terms like this coming from the pulpit? As stated above here, MD seems like a sophomore high school jock in a locker room trying to be cool enough to impress the seniors. Forget the “his quotes were taken out of context” response; his words speak for themselves! And pure Bible awesomeness? YEAH RIGHT!
KTTF (keep the True Faith),
Dee
Dee:
What you have shared is indeed a common response from Driscoll worshippers/supporters. I’m sure the administrators of this site and other similar discernment sites, could produce hundreds of similar vile and condescending comments from Driscoll followers if they so chose. The hostility toward anyone who would call their cult leader to account to the Scriptures is some of the most vicious I have ever encountered. The tragedy is, their manifestation of his influence upon them testifies to the very polar opposite of biblical love (both for the God of the Bible as well as for fellow Christians), despite their much talk of “loving” the lost. They bear testimony against both the “jesus” Mr. Driscoll preaches, as well as against the legitimacy of Mr. Driscoll himself.
The poor deceived followers that Mr. Driscoll is leading away from the Jesus of the Scriptures certainly need our earnest prayers.
David W.
It’s funny that you mention that. I guess I never expected such comments coming at ME!
I was previously one of those people the Bible talks about, being moved by every wind of doctrine… guess I’m in the trenches now!
Having a sheltered background, though not a Christian one, I fell into many temptations such as the above article talks about (lust is not solely a guy problem). I’ve seen where an
unchecked thought life can go… and it’s pretty ugly!
I checked out a sermon of his that these guys were talking about how AMAZING it is, and I only got to the 5-minute mark before he mentions neck rubs and using the word “hottie!” Now, okay, if this is a specific marriage conference, ok… but this is a church service! I need not continue!
My eyebrows have hit the ceiling!
Dee
What has happened to unity? As Christ’s followers we should be united for our love for him, and rather than clashes on the teaching of the Bible we should talk it out. If you think someone is going wrong (Driscoll in this case) then why don’t you through brotherly love confront him, write to him, instead of writing a slanderous article about him on the internet. This isn’t loving, this is pulling Christ’s body apart. We shouldn’t be attacking each other, the athiest’s for example are already doing that job for us.
So please lets not condemn each other, thats for the Lord to do. However, we are all evil therefore we do not get things right all the time, therefore if someone says something that doesn’t seem right, talk to them, get to the bottom of it. But thank the Lord we have a perfect God to look up to and mirror, lets pray we do that, and through that, that the gospel of the Lord be taught correctly to those who are in the dark.
Just an after note, Driscoll is one of the only Pastor’s I know of who is brave enough to teach the taboo subject of sexuality, for example the Elders at my Church do not permit Song of Songs to be taught because it’s too explicit. But it is a book of the Bible, and sexuality is extremely prevalent in our society, so Driscoll is right on thinking its an important issue. But because it’s such a taboo subject Driscoll is one of the only people brave enough to preach it plainly, therefore he may particularly choose to preach it because no one else will.
I have a feeling this won’t be published because you’ll see it as too Driscoll. But I am in no way a ‘Driscollite’, God is my King so it upsets me to see this disunity between God’s people.
Elle
“What has happened to unity?”
Should we have unity at the price truth? Should we have unity for the sake of friendship? Should we have unity for the sake of unity? Anyone having even a remote knowledge of the Bible; even someone who hasn’t read the Bible, would reason that that is not a doctrine of the Bible, or highly regarded by its author, who is God.
Unity is a word used a lot these days by those who have a negative regard for truth and a penchant for deception. So, when you ask, “what has happened to unity?” the answer is simple, it has been hijacked by unbelievers and heretics. But, if you look closely you will find that the unity described in Scripture is still in tact.
The Bible expressly declares that believers are not to have fellowship with unbelievers and heretics. As a matter of fact there is a curse on those who say they are believers, but preach another gospel. The real problem is that there so few who even know what the Bible says, that when the apostate preacher gives his speech on Sunday morning, all they hear is the eloquence of a finely delivered message, choreographed to the beat of a praise band. They don’t look for truth, they look for self satisfaction, and cannot understand why anyone would criticize such a wonderful godly man. But, rather than explore whether or not the critics speak truth, they blast those who do exactly what their master demands. Wearing a cross around ones neck does not make one a Christ follower, it is the doer of the word who is the Christ follower.
Please, read your Bible and compare what you read with what Mark Driscoll is saying. It is not rocket science.
Steve Blackwell
http://www.IndyWatchman.com
Where is the fear of God?
Pastors will be held to a higher standard/judgment.
I speak from experience when I say I knew a man, a pastor/preacher (and most are not BOTH) that so feared he would say something that would grieve the Lord Jesus Christ when he stepped behind the pulpit; He believed that the Lord would strike him dead if he spoke anything untoward.
Again, I ask, where is the fear of God?
There is too much man-pleasing, man-centered, man-fearing junk going on everywhere! I am surprised that God has not made a greasy spot out of the lot of us!
Lord Jesus, have mercy!
Well said Indywatchman. It also grieves me that celebrity preachers are so often given carte blanche by their followers. It is as if they can do no wrong where if anyone says nary a word against them they are blasted as if they are dismantling the foundations of Christianity.
It is true we must always guard our words and be very circumspect for the measure we use is the one that will be measured against us. Yet one cannot just remain silent when clear violations of both the letter and spirit of the word are trodden under foot.
Billy Graham is a prime example – the man can be yoked with rank apostates, can preach universalism and praise the pope, yet when these things are elucidated in light of the Scriptures one is castigated for speaking against such a “great” man of God. To this I shake my head and think, how could a “great” man of God do such things?
Then we have Mark Driscoll who continues to use his shock and awe tactics. One who seems to have no problem yoking himself with the likes of Rick Warren, Perry Noble and others who I’d never call defenders of the faith (see Radicalis website as just one example).
And still he is defended as his followers allow him perpetual use of his “get of of jail free” card . I just don’t get it.
Accountability for elders is a high calling, for those who follow the Bible. My church recently called two more men (after vetting and training them) to serve in this office and dismissed one (who helped found the church) for things most churches would wink at or overlook entirely. He had been approached privately and asked to repent and submit to accountability and reconciliation. He refused and was rebuked and dismissed in a public meeting.
Such is the way of a church that dares not compromise on the Word of God.
As an aside, God is merciful and several men who stood in defense of the dismissed elder were convicted of their sin and went to the elder to ask forgiveness of strengthening his hand when they should have exhorted him to repent. A few days later, the dismissed elder repented and will be working on reconciliation and reformation. This is the way church discipline works among elders. Not a free pass – the responsibility to the church and before God is too high to allow men holding that office to be left alone.
I am neither a “Driscollite” nor a “DefConite” whatever those are. Matter of fact this is the first time I’ve ever commented on any blog post ever. I’m usually content just to read and reflect on others thoughts. However this seems to be a very interesting topic. Im very familiar with Mark Driscoll and his teachings. I don’t view him as a final authority in my life and certainly not a golden calf either. Im also certain from having had personal conversation with him that he does not view himself in that light either.
Im sure there are times that he could say things in a different manor or a less “shocking” manor. But, perhaps his reasoning is less motivated by “shock” and more motivated by passion. The fact is that for the last several centuries, in these areas of the Bible we have been both silent and negligent. And today with millions of people struggling with sexual sins such as pornography, homosexuality and adultery, I think it’s clear that while we as pastors and ministers may have a handle on what the Bible has to say about it, the world has formed there opinion from everything BUT the scriptures. So I guess my thought is whether or not it’s perceived as “insatiable” or passionate if not from the pulpit then where is it ok to use this type of terminology, in a Biblical context of course.? The Bible is neither negligent nor is it silent on these “debase” topics, and we shouldn’t be either.
In addition, I want to say that I am sorry that your children were prematurely exposed to “wicked sins”, as a parent I know the struggle it is to protect our children from the lust of the world. However I do fail to see how that’s Driscoll’s fault. Im not familiar with Pilgrim radio Im not sure what their mission is or if they have certain times during the day where the content is more adult in nature; however my assumption is that Driscoll does not decide when and what is played. While I can sympathize with your frustration, your frustration is not a reason to condemn another brother, stating “how dare he call himself a pastor, my kids were in the car”, how would Mark Driscoll know that? My kids which range from 7 to 1 yrs in age have overhead my wife and I having conversation that I may have preferred for them not to hear, but that does not make the content sinful. Maybe a call or letter to pilgrim was necessary to express concern, but Im not sure, why the rash treatment of Mark Driscoll is.
What I fail to see as a Christian is while the “Driscollites” are not allowed to comment, apparently anyone who wants to criticize another brother in Christ is welcome to say what ever they please about him. I find this both sad and unfortunate. Just my thoughts.
Aaron,
Thanks for your comment.
You said:
What I find sad and unfortunate is that you (and so many others) trivialize this as we’re just criticizing Driscoll. Seriously. Is that how shallow you view us? Also, anyone who refers to Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, and Robert Schuller as his brothers, is no brother of mine.
If you have the time, I recommend perusing this blog regarding past posts on Driscoll. The issues are not as shallow as you (and others) constantly try to make them out to be. Type “Driscoll” into the search engine and you will see that our reasons for opposing Driscoll is not so one-dimensional.
Also, I put a stop to Driscoll defenders (even those who open their comments by saying “I’m not defending Driscoll, but . . . “) because we have gone ’round and ’round with them in past posts and after all that time, energy, and effort, it proved to be futile as neither side was going to change their position. We found ourselves arguing the same points to no avail, so it was my decision to no longer waste precious time on those who refused to see the forest for the trees.
There’s so much more to the Driscoll dynamic than just what the above post addresses, and I encourage you to delve deeper into exactly why it is that we have taken the stance that we have.
Sincerely,
- Pilgrim