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	<title>Comments on: No Degrees of Deadness</title>
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	<description>Defending truth and contending for the Faith while carrying the Light of the Gospel into a world shrouded in darkness.</description>
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		<title>By: Socorro Alaniz</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/06/20/no-degrees-of-deadness/#comment-11837</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Socorro Alaniz]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:37:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=10982#comment-11837</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Manfred,

I recently became aware of Pastor Voddie Baucham through Way of the Master Radio (now Wretched Radio).  I missed him last year when he ministered at Pastor Jeremiah&#039;s church here in the San Diego area.

Did not miss him this year and he blessed my daughter, son-in-law, and I with his message &quot;multi-generational blessing&quot;.  Wow-Weee!

I am currently reading The Ever Loving Truth.  Voddie writes like he preaches... I love it.... always pointing his readers back to the Word.

John,

A well thought out and written article.  A friend of mine has been recently opened to study the Doctrines of Grace, and I have been able to share lots of material with him.  He is out of the &#039;word of faith&quot; movement, so his openness has been real encouraging.  I am sending him this article as well.

Thank you and may God continue to bless you.

Socorro, in Bonita, California]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Manfred,</p>
<p>I recently became aware of Pastor Voddie Baucham through Way of the Master Radio (now Wretched Radio).  I missed him last year when he ministered at Pastor Jeremiah&#8217;s church here in the San Diego area.</p>
<p>Did not miss him this year and he blessed my daughter, son-in-law, and I with his message &#8220;multi-generational blessing&#8221;.  Wow-Weee!</p>
<p>I am currently reading The Ever Loving Truth.  Voddie writes like he preaches&#8230; I love it&#8230;. always pointing his readers back to the Word.</p>
<p>John,</p>
<p>A well thought out and written article.  A friend of mine has been recently opened to study the Doctrines of Grace, and I have been able to share lots of material with him.  He is out of the &#8216;word of faith&#8221; movement, so his openness has been real encouraging.  I am sending him this article as well.</p>
<p>Thank you and may God continue to bless you.</p>
<p>Socorro, in Bonita, California</p>
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		<title>By: The Pilgrim</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/06/20/no-degrees-of-deadness/#comment-11833</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Pilgrim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 21:46:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=10982#comment-11833</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;strong&gt;Ugh, Coram, &#039;&lt;em&gt;gag&lt;/em&gt;&#039; is right! 

If I didn&#039;t know any better I&#039;d think you attended some of the same churches I had.

That drivel in your last comment gave me flashbacks I thought I had long forgotten.

Thanks for ruining my day . . . I can&#039;t get that taste out of my mouth now.

:o)~

- The Pilgrim&lt;/strong&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Ugh, Coram, &#8216;<em>gag</em>&#8216; is right! </p>
<p>If I didn&#8217;t know any better I&#8217;d think you attended some of the same churches I had.</p>
<p>That drivel in your last comment gave me flashbacks I thought I had long forgotten.</p>
<p>Thanks for ruining my day . . . I can&#8217;t get that taste out of my mouth now.</p>
<p>:o)~</p>
<p>- The Pilgrim</strong></p>
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		<title>By: Manfred</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/06/20/no-degrees-of-deadness/#comment-11830</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Manfred]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 21:26:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=10982#comment-11830</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[CD,

I hope the music leader of my former church doesn&#039;t see that - I fear he would be half convinced to perform it.  He did have some song in the rotation that had people sing &quot;I would swim a thousand miles to be close to You&quot; and so forth.  My wife and cringed each time that rubbish - and lots more like it - appeared.  sigh

There&#039;s also the corporate approach to church, which provided yet another push for us to leave.  Here&#039;s a short commentary on what happened a year before we left that &quot;people driven&quot; (actual description by the preacher) church.
http://menofhonorministry.org/Believe.htm]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CD,</p>
<p>I hope the music leader of my former church doesn&#8217;t see that &#8211; I fear he would be half convinced to perform it.  He did have some song in the rotation that had people sing &#8220;I would swim a thousand miles to be close to You&#8221; and so forth.  My wife and cringed each time that rubbish &#8211; and lots more like it &#8211; appeared.  sigh</p>
<p>There&#8217;s also the corporate approach to church, which provided yet another push for us to leave.  Here&#8217;s a short commentary on what happened a year before we left that &#8220;people driven&#8221; (actual description by the preacher) church.<br />
<a href="http://menofhonorministry.org/Believe.htm" rel="nofollow">http://menofhonorministry.org/Believe.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Coram Deo</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/06/20/no-degrees-of-deadness/#comment-11829</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Coram Deo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 21:07:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=10982#comment-11829</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yours is a very sad, but all too common story I&#039;m afraid Manfred.  In point of fact it&#039;s an indictment against the modern, Western model of church-ianity which thing is a perverse caricature of the true church of Jesus Christ.  Like the OT Northern Kingdom of Israel, many &quot;men of God&quot; today have set up golden calves in the high places to placate the carnal cravings of their idolatrous &quot;worshippers&quot; so-called:

&lt;b&gt;Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.&lt;/b&gt; - 1 Kings 12:28
 
Modern translation: &lt;i&gt;&quot;It&#039;s too inconvenient for &lt;b&gt;you&lt;/b&gt; to get out of bed and get to church early in the morning on the Lord&#039;s Day, so we&#039;ll have services on Saturday night, and Sunday early, and Sunday late, and we&#039;ll podcast them if &lt;b&gt;you&lt;/b&gt; still can&#039;t find time to trouble &lt;b&gt;yourself&lt;/b&gt; with all the fuss of actually attending at all.  God loves &lt;b&gt;you&lt;/b&gt; just as &lt;b&gt;you&lt;/b&gt; are and wants &lt;b&gt;you&lt;/b&gt; to be the best &lt;b&gt;you&lt;/b&gt; that &lt;b&gt;you&lt;/b&gt; can be.  God is for &lt;b&gt;you&lt;/b&gt; and not against &lt;b&gt;you&lt;/b&gt; because &lt;b&gt;you&#039;re&lt;/b&gt; the apple of His eye and He wants to bless &lt;b&gt;you&lt;/b&gt; financially so that &lt;b&gt;you&lt;/b&gt; can be a blessing to others.  He thinks about how wonderful and special &lt;b&gt;you&lt;/b&gt; are, and He doesn&#039;t even want to live without &lt;b&gt;you&lt;/b&gt;.  He proved this by sending His Son to die for &lt;b&gt;you&lt;/b&gt;.  Jesus has done all He can, and now the rest is up to &lt;b&gt;you&lt;/b&gt;.  He said &lt;i&gt;&quot;it&#039;s finished&quot;&lt;/i&gt;, and His part is, but now &lt;b&gt;you&lt;/b&gt; need to do &lt;b&gt;your&lt;/b&gt; part to &lt;b&gt;really&lt;/b&gt; finish things.  He&#039;s pleading on his hands and knees right now for &lt;b&gt;you&lt;/b&gt; to just return His love to Him, because &lt;i&gt;&quot;&lt;b&gt;you&lt;/b&gt; complete Him&quot;&lt;/i&gt;.  &lt;b&gt;You&lt;/b&gt; had Him at &quot;hello&quot;.  Like the deer panteth after the water, so God&#039;s soul panteth after &lt;b&gt;thee&lt;/b&gt;.  

In fact &lt;b&gt;you&#039;re&lt;/b&gt; so special that our praise team wrote a song about it; do you wanna hear it?  Here is goes!

&lt;b&gt;....clap...clap...clap...clap...&lt;/b&gt;

&lt;i&gt;&quot;Hey, hey Jesus you&#039;re so cool, you love me and I love me too!  
We make such a team, me and You; You do your part and I&#039;ll do mine too!  
Don&#039;t treat me too roughly or I might turn away, and I know for You that would be such a sad, sad day!
When I make it to heaven&#039;s pearly gates, St. Peter will meet me there with a smile on his face,
He&#039;ll ask me, &lt;b&gt;&#039;Why should I let you in?&#039;&lt;/b&gt;; and I&#039;ll answer with a toothy grin;
Because I, I, I, I, I did so good!  I accepted Jesus, just like I knew I should!  I did good works in His name!  I cast out devils, and healed the blind and the lame!
I gave to the poor, and I tithed and I prayed; I sang lots of songs, and I have a good name, and I&#039;ve never done anything worthy of blame!
Oh yes I, I, I, I, I did so good!  Now open those gates, just like you know you should!&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;*gag*&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt;

But praise be to our God who sits in the heavens and works all things according to the counsel of His own will and to the praise of His glory using even the foolishness of men, the base things of this world, and the deception of the enemy to further His own righteous plan of the ages; the mystery of Christ in us, our hope of glory.

Soli Deo Gloria!

&#039;Til He returns or calls me home,
CD]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yours is a very sad, but all too common story I&#8217;m afraid Manfred.  In point of fact it&#8217;s an indictment against the modern, Western model of church-ianity which thing is a perverse caricature of the true church of Jesus Christ.  Like the OT Northern Kingdom of Israel, many &#8220;men of God&#8221; today have set up golden calves in the high places to placate the carnal cravings of their idolatrous &#8220;worshippers&#8221; so-called:</p>
<p><b>Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.</b> &#8211; 1 Kings 12:28</p>
<p>Modern translation: <i>&#8220;It&#8217;s too inconvenient for <b>you</b> to get out of bed and get to church early in the morning on the Lord&#8217;s Day, so we&#8217;ll have services on Saturday night, and Sunday early, and Sunday late, and we&#8217;ll podcast them if <b>you</b> still can&#8217;t find time to trouble <b>yourself</b> with all the fuss of actually attending at all.  God loves <b>you</b> just as <b>you</b> are and wants <b>you</b> to be the best <b>you</b> that <b>you</b> can be.  God is for <b>you</b> and not against <b>you</b> because <b>you&#8217;re</b> the apple of His eye and He wants to bless <b>you</b> financially so that <b>you</b> can be a blessing to others.  He thinks about how wonderful and special <b>you</b> are, and He doesn&#8217;t even want to live without <b>you</b>.  He proved this by sending His Son to die for <b>you</b>.  Jesus has done all He can, and now the rest is up to <b>you</b>.  He said </i><i>&#8220;it&#8217;s finished&#8221;</i>, and His part is, but now <b>you</b> need to do <b>your</b> part to <b>really</b> finish things.  He&#8217;s pleading on his hands and knees right now for <b>you</b> to just return His love to Him, because <i>&#8220;<b>you</b> complete Him&#8221;</i>.  <b>You</b> had Him at &#8220;hello&#8221;.  Like the deer panteth after the water, so God&#8217;s soul panteth after <b>thee</b>.  </p>
<p>In fact <b>you&#8217;re</b> so special that our praise team wrote a song about it; do you wanna hear it?  Here is goes!</p>
<p><b>&#8230;.clap&#8230;clap&#8230;clap&#8230;clap&#8230;</b></p>
<p><i>&#8220;Hey, hey Jesus you&#8217;re so cool, you love me and I love me too!<br />
We make such a team, me and You; You do your part and I&#8217;ll do mine too!<br />
Don&#8217;t treat me too roughly or I might turn away, and I know for You that would be such a sad, sad day!<br />
When I make it to heaven&#8217;s pearly gates, St. Peter will meet me there with a smile on his face,<br />
He&#8217;ll ask me, <b>&#8216;Why should I let you in?&#8217;</b>; and I&#8217;ll answer with a toothy grin;<br />
Because I, I, I, I, I did so good!  I accepted Jesus, just like I knew I should!  I did good works in His name!  I cast out devils, and healed the blind and the lame!<br />
I gave to the poor, and I tithed and I prayed; I sang lots of songs, and I have a good name, and I&#8217;ve never done anything worthy of blame!<br />
Oh yes I, I, I, I, I did so good!  Now open those gates, just like you know you should!&#8221;</i></p>
<p><b><i>*gag*</i></b></p>
<p>But praise be to our God who sits in the heavens and works all things according to the counsel of His own will and to the praise of His glory using even the foolishness of men, the base things of this world, and the deception of the enemy to further His own righteous plan of the ages; the mystery of Christ in us, our hope of glory.</p>
<p>Soli Deo Gloria!</p>
<p>&#8216;Til He returns or calls me home,<br />
CD</p>
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		<title>By: Manfred</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/06/20/no-degrees-of-deadness/#comment-11828</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Manfred]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 19:36:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=10982#comment-11828</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[CD,

A good friend and I call many &quot;churches&quot; &quot;goat pens&quot;.  Some similarity with sheep pens, but not the same.

When I was in such a church, I was rebuked for the following:

http://brogdensmuse.menofhonorministry.org/Apologetics/Seeker_Sensitive.htm

A pastor told me &quot;[this church] has always been and will always be seeker sensitive!&quot;  and that I (a leader in that church&#039;s ministry to men) shouldn&#039;t confuse people by espousing a position contrary to the (undocumented) position of the church.  Hence, after a time of trying to influence that church to look more the Scriptures, I left and found refuge in http://www.gracefamilybaptist.net/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CD,</p>
<p>A good friend and I call many &#8220;churches&#8221; &#8220;goat pens&#8221;.  Some similarity with sheep pens, but not the same.</p>
<p>When I was in such a church, I was rebuked for the following:</p>
<p><a href="http://brogdensmuse.menofhonorministry.org/Apologetics/Seeker_Sensitive.htm" rel="nofollow">http://brogdensmuse.menofhonorministry.org/Apologetics/Seeker_Sensitive.htm</a></p>
<p>A pastor told me &#8220;[this church] has always been and will always be seeker sensitive!&#8221;  and that I (a leader in that church&#8217;s ministry to men) shouldn&#8217;t confuse people by espousing a position contrary to the (undocumented) position of the church.  Hence, after a time of trying to influence that church to look more the Scriptures, I left and found refuge in <a href="http://www.gracefamilybaptist.net/" rel="nofollow">http://www.gracefamilybaptist.net/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Coram Deo</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/06/20/no-degrees-of-deadness/#comment-11827</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Coram Deo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 18:34:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=10982#comment-11827</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Amen Manfred.

So many seem so bewildered by the state of the broader professing church in America, but I think it was Paul Washer who summed things up nicely by pointing out that the real problem within the broader professing church is that, by and large, it is guilty of continually attempting to disciple goats.  

In Christ,
CD]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen Manfred.</p>
<p>So many seem so bewildered by the state of the broader professing church in America, but I think it was Paul Washer who summed things up nicely by pointing out that the real problem within the broader professing church is that, by and large, it is guilty of continually attempting to disciple goats.  </p>
<p>In Christ,<br />
CD</p>
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		<title>By: Manfred</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/06/20/no-degrees-of-deadness/#comment-11824</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Manfred]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 14:29:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=10982#comment-11824</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gee, this means that all those men who seek to entertain and entice dead people (they call them &quot;seekers&quot;) are doomed to succeed only in perfecting their pitch.

While some (me among them) are not too fond of the phrases used in the TULIP, the doctrines represented therein are solidly Biblical and can only be refuted by one without spiritual understanding.  (As for the phrases themselves, I see the TULIP as an early example of church marketing :-)

As Mr. Samson points out, nobody has strength when he&#039;s dead - not even the strength of his name-sake is adequate.

Why is it so difficult for pastors to realize that crafting a &quot;church&quot; to attract and entertain spiritually dead people, telling them how much God (who they know not) loves them and can make their lives better (but they will take every advantage offered) only results in a growing social club full of people who are dead in their sins but think they are &quot;OK with God&quot;?  This is a cruel hoax - not a kindness to so-called seekers.

Post-modern man thinks Truth is un-love.  Love is saying only soft, muchy things that I agree with.  Saints of the living Lord are not post-modern; we are blood bought children of God who have only one Truth, one faith, one Savior, and only one Lord!  And He is not man, nor does He seek to please man.  All glory and honor and wisdom and power is and will forever be unto the Lamb of God!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gee, this means that all those men who seek to entertain and entice dead people (they call them &#8220;seekers&#8221;) are doomed to succeed only in perfecting their pitch.</p>
<p>While some (me among them) are not too fond of the phrases used in the TULIP, the doctrines represented therein are solidly Biblical and can only be refuted by one without spiritual understanding.  (As for the phrases themselves, I see the TULIP as an early example of church marketing :-)</p>
<p>As Mr. Samson points out, nobody has strength when he&#8217;s dead &#8211; not even the strength of his name-sake is adequate.</p>
<p>Why is it so difficult for pastors to realize that crafting a &#8220;church&#8221; to attract and entertain spiritually dead people, telling them how much God (who they know not) loves them and can make their lives better (but they will take every advantage offered) only results in a growing social club full of people who are dead in their sins but think they are &#8220;OK with God&#8221;?  This is a cruel hoax &#8211; not a kindness to so-called seekers.</p>
<p>Post-modern man thinks Truth is un-love.  Love is saying only soft, muchy things that I agree with.  Saints of the living Lord are not post-modern; we are blood bought children of God who have only one Truth, one faith, one Savior, and only one Lord!  And He is not man, nor does He seek to please man.  All glory and honor and wisdom and power is and will forever be unto the Lamb of God!</p>
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