May I encourage you [if you have not already] to read a book aptly titled;

“The Five Points of Calvinism” -defined, defended and documented.

by David N. Steele, Curtis C. Thomas and S. Lance Quinn

This book is a real blessing. Hunt it down.

Why couldn’t I just be happy being an Arminian that believes in eternal security??? : )

Calvinism, yet another reason for people to look at me like I have an arm growing out my head when I tell them what I believe. And not just when I tell them some crazy statement one of their favorite teachers/preaches made. : )

The 5 points of the Calvinist TULIP are not the best expressions of the truths behind each of these related doctrines. “Limited Atonement” is the most widely objected to point. But the “particular atonement” that the death of Christ represents is what the Scripture teaches.

Here are few links to discussions about that.
http://vintage.aomin.org/2PE21.html
http://vintage.aomin.org/WaiteAtone.html

Most people are trapped in emotionally based churches – which are by nature contrary to Scripture.

When witnessing, nowhere are we told to tell people that God loves them, has a plan for their lives, or that their sins ARE forgiven. We are to tell them that men are sinners, condemned by our record (in Adam all die) and our performance (every man is a sinner from birth); that Jesus (WHo is God) came as a man, lived without sin – obeying Father God perfectly – and was put to death to pay for the sins of those God has given to Him. We tell men everywhere to repent and believe on Jesus, knowing He has chosen those He will save (not might save). We have confidence in God, not our presentation or our own testimony.

I pray your studies equip you for every good work, knowing most seminaries impede biblical understanding rather than help it.

I think the only thing that I am stuck on is “limited atonement” but, I am not a universalist so I guess that makes me believe in limited atonement by default.

I guess what has got me tripped up at the moment is what would I tell a lost person if they ask me if their sins are forgiven? Because I don’t know if they would be elect or not. I feel like if I told them that their sins were paid for I might be lieing to them if they are not elect.

I do believe that you can’t convince someone to come to Jesus. I believe they have to be drawn by God. That is one of the reasons I have a problem with altar calls and the “raise your hand” decisions. I think the majority of those decisions is emotionalism. I came out of a denomination full of emotionalism. I have seen a lot of bad things caused by emotionalism.

Anyway’s, I guess it will take me more study and prayer. I hope my next seminary class will talk a little about Calvinism and Arminianism. It is supposed to be about church history.

Here’s a very good short, free booklet that discusses the same subject from the same perspective, to whet your appetite: http://www.faithbibleonline.net/bibcalv.htm
__________________________________________________________________
shane,

Here’s a free booklet that has brief examination of the doctrines of grace, from the same perspective as the book.

http://www.faithbibleonline.net/bibcalv.htm

I will have to check it out. thanks.

As Spurgeon said, what men call Calvinism is merely the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

Here’s a great, easy to read book that explains much: http://shop.churchandfamilyreformation.org/Doctrines-of-Grace-Rediscovering-the-Evangelical-Gospel-BKDOGJBPR.htm

I have been thinking, wouldn’t saying that a person would be able to lose their salvation or walk away from it, be saying that Jesus is weak? Wouldn’t it almost be “another Jesus” one that is not capapble to holding onto what is His?

I have thinking about man’s “free will” as well. I would say that the Apostle Paul is a good example of iresistable grace. When Jesus said, “it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks”, wouldn’t He be saying that “you can’t get away from me”? It also seems like a person’s free will as to wether or not they will follow God would go out the window when they become a Christian. The Apostles always referred to themselves as “slaves of Christ”. A slave has no free will.

After a little over a year of knowing I am secure in my salvation has drawn me towards Calvinism. I have to disagree with Arminianism because of the belief that a person can lose or forfeit their salvation. So I guess Calvinism is the only theological direction I can go.?.?.?.

Wise decision !…Mark 6:11

- dale

I’m done with you. You can take your Scripture twisting elsewhere. I have never seen someone go to the lengths you have gone to in order to make man look better than he is. Man, before he knows God, is God’s enemy (see Romans 5:10) and hates God. We don’t like to think that, and we wopuld never admit it, but it’s the truth. Before I knew Christ, I never woould have said that I had hated God. But since He has brought me out of the darkness, I can see that yes, before I knew God, I hated God.

I ain’t even going over it any more with you because you still won’t get it. There is nothing good that dwells inside us until God breathes His life into us and gives us faith to believe (see Romans 12:3; 2nd Thessalonians 2:13). The song-and-dance you have done around what is spelled out clearly in Ephesians 2:8-9 and Revelation 17:8 (and other Scriptures) are, seriously, giving me a headache. What is clearly spelled out, you have taken and turned on its head and made it unrecognizable from what was written.

Farewell.

Here’s some lyrics from a song from shai linne that make an excellent point – the Godhead MUST be in unity. Complete lyric to this wonderful song are here:

http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dgvm3fkq_9p6gjwmdr&hl=en

Father, Son and Spirit: three and yet one
Working as a unit to get things done

The Father elects them, the Son pays their debt and protects them
The Spirit is the One who resurrects them
The Father chooses them, the Son gets bruised for them
The Spirit renews them and produces fruit in them
Everybody’s not elect, the Father decides
And it’s only the elect in whom the Spirit resides
The Father and the Spirit- completely unified
But when it comes to Christ and those in hell?

Now, notice something. Did God tell Jeremiah that “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you would exist” or “I knew I would call you?” NO!!! He said “I knew YOU.” He had marked Jeremiah out even before Jeremiah existed in the womb. It seems as though (again) you are OK to twist the Scriptures to fit your theology. That God could not have known anybody before the world was created, yet he could know Jeremiah. Can’t have it both ways, friend.

Regarding the book of life and Rev. 17,8: All believers will have their name written in the book means actually that they will have a name that was written there. They “receive a name” and this is a name that has been in the book from the foundation of the world.

Unless you’re saying that God wrote that “new name” in the Lamb’s Book of Life before He formed the world, which may indeed be true. [Editor's note from 4*P--I said it MAY be true, not that it IS true. I was simply giving the benefit of the doubt, nothing more.]

Yes, that’s what I meant.

[all emphasis mine]

Okay, I REALLY want to see you dance your way out of this one. This is about the biggest double-speak I’ve seen you put out so far! You said previously that The idea of a list of names like a telephone book is pagan and unbiblical. In fact, I’d ask you to provide biblical support for this. There ain’t nothing. Yet now, you’re saying that there WAS a book with names in it before the world was created! I’m not even going to touch that. I don’t need to. You have just contradicted yourself and made my point for me.

As far as Ephesians 1. Of course one is considered “in Christ” after they believe. Before that they are lost. I will never argue otherwise. BUT we were chosen in Christ, we were predestined to our adoption–when? “Before the foundation of the world” (verse 3). Why were we predestined? “according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will” (verse 11). He chose us, predestined us, not because He saw that we would believe (if you even believe that God can see into the future, which it doesn’t sound like you believe that), but because He chose us–for no other reason than the good pleasure of His will!

Just like He chose Abram before Abram did anything or we even read anything about Abram’s faith (see Genesis 12:1-3, and notice the order of events: God calls Abram, THEN Abram believes).

What had Jacob done to deserve God’s favor? NOTHING! He hadn’t even been born yet when God told Isaac that the elder would serve the younger (Genesis 25:23).

How much faith did Isaac have when God told Abraham that “Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him”? Oh yeah, Isaac hadn’t even been conceived yet. But God CHOSE Isaac and ELECTED to make His covenant with Isaac.

Mary was still 700 years away from being born when God told Isaiah that a virgin would conceive and bear a Son (Isaiah 7:14). Unless God really didn’t have anybody specific in mind to bear that Son.

What kind of faith did Paul have before God chose him to take the gospel to Galatia, Ephesus, etc? I dare say God chose HIM for salvation.

And consider the theif on the cross. Do you think it was coincidence that he was crucified that very day along with Christ?

Now, as far as faith and repentance being gifts from God. They HAVE to be. Romans 8:7–Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. In our natural state, with the mind we are born with, we hate God and we are His enemy. Period. We CANNOT subject ourselves to God’s law. We don’t want to. We are slaves of sin (see Romans 6). And since before we are saved we are in our natural state, and since we must submit to God before we can be saved, there is no way around the fact that we cannot submit to Christ unless God acts to bend and break our natural will.

Look, I would love to talk more about this, but, quite frankly, it’s is getting old. The Scriptures are very clear that God is the one who chooses whom He will save. Whether it was Abram or Isaac or David or Jeremiah or the apostles, it is God who chooses. He has to, because we hate Him. And you may want to sit and twist the Scriptures to say something that is completely foreign to the text to make us filthy humans to be more righteous than we really are–but I don’t. So I’m done trying to unbend the pretzel you keep tying yourself in. Have a good day.

I have been following these threads, and I praise God for your insight, tenacity and Christian character. Thanks for all of your words. They have been re-affirming and edifying.

-Bro. Aaron

And like the old covenant no one can fulfill the new covenant apart from salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, to the praise of God alone, which is the gift of God alone. Salvation is of the Lord.

a helmet said: But therefore the gospel of grace through faith was invoked! Therefore! Note Romans 3,21. That’s the turning point in Paul’s elaboration on the necessity of the gospel to be invoked. Because the old law would be thwarted by the sinful human nature, the new law was established. Arguing that since natural man could not fulfill the old law due to his sinful nature, he cannot fulfill the new law either, is to throw overboard Paul’s entire rationale in Romans ch. 2-3. If you argue that sinful man cannot believe the gospel, since after all he cannot keep the ten commandment, then Paul’s entire reasoning here in Romans 2-3 is lapse and meaningless!

Christ fulfilled the whole law perfectly, and those who are in Christ receive His imputed perfect righteousness by God’s grace alone, through no merit in or of themselves and are partakers in the New Covenant because of God’s unmerited gift of grace, which produces faith in the redeemed by the outward call of the gospel and the effectual inward call of the Spirit. Salvation is the gift of God lest any man should boast. The gospel isn’t meaningless, it is the power of God unto salvation for all those who believe. And those who believe are those whom God calls with the inward call of the Spirit in response to the outward call of the eternal gospel of grace, as previously mentioned. God infallibly saves all His elect, and all will infallibly come to Christ whom the Father has given unto Him, and none will in any wise be lost whom He has called by His Spirit. Salvation is of the Lord.

a helmet said: Yes, thanks to God that we have the gospel of Grace, so that we can be saved by faith in the one who is the fulfillment of the law. We couldn’t fulfill the old covenant, so thanks to God that he bestowed us a new covenant, the law of faith in Jesus Christ, which is a covenant we can fulfill.

See comment above. Salvation is of the Lord.

I don’t mean this disparagingly, but the more you comment here the more confused you seem. Your ongoing efforts to explain away the plain teachings of scripture with vain reasoning, using things like phone books and Democrats and Republicans as examples, are really quite futile and unproductive.

As such I’m persuaded under the admonition of 2 Timothy 2:16 to admonish you to reason from the scriptures, or else your comments must be considered as vain babbling which thing will preclude you from further discussion on this subject.

Your position is duly noted, you deny the teaching of scripture that salvation is of the Lord in favor of the vain traditions of men that says salvation is produced by the human work of faith, and that this “faith” so-called is produced by the flesh of dead-in-their-sins-and-trespasses men. Of course such a claim is a flat denial of the teaching of the Holy Bible since those that are in the flesh cannot even understand the things of the Spirit and they are at enmity with God.

Not to mention the fact that your stated position makes man the savior of man via a system of “synergistic decisionism” (i.e. man in and of himself reforms himself by an act of his own self-will), yet only God can open your eyes to His truth. We have done our best here as fallen, fallible human instruments to point you to the infallible Word of God, but you continue to resist, choosing instead to embrace your traditions. Yet let it be noted that in this “synergistic decisionism” position you stand arm-in-arm with the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Mormons, Pelagians, semi-Pelagians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Wiccans, atheists, and every other form of false religion known to mankind, all of which firmly believe that man reforms man by an act of his own self-willed volition in devotion to his particular deity, or lack thereof.

So be it.

In Christ,
CD

Before the foundation of the world, nobody of us was around. We didn’t exist. There was no-one around except Christ, the only object of God’s love. And if anyone is ever to partake in the love of God then he must be IN CHRIST so that he partakes in the love of God that is given only to the Son, to Christ.

So, I guess He was lying to Jeremiah when He said, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you” (Jeremiah 1:5). I guess Jeremiah had, somehow, come to know the truth before he was ever conceived in his mother’s womb? Well, no, actually, his mother’s egg and his father’s sperm must have known the truth, eh?

Second, what good works had Abraham done before God chose him? What good works had Moses done? In what way did David show himself to be a servant of God before God told Samuel to anoint him the next king of Israel? So your argument about having to partake in the love of God before He will choose that person loses a bit of footing, because all these men (and so many more) were chosen BY GOD before they had done ANYTHING to “earn” their partaking in the blessings of God.

The clue is the following question: Is there a list like a telephone book that was written before the foundation of the earth with any human being’s name enrolled? Is there a list of, say, 21th century people’s names like this:

YES, THERE IS!!! The Scriptures are very clear on this matter.

Ephesians 1:3-5–Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will
Ephesians 1:11–In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will.

When does Paul say that God chose us? “Before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4). Sorry. No way around it. The Scriptures are clear, God chose us before He formed the world.

Note, God is no respector of persons (Romans 2,11; Galatians 2,6; Ephesians 6,9;Colossians 3,25;James 2,11; 1 Peter 1,17) If a list as above is no primary example of respecting persons, then I don’t know what respect of persons would have to be? A list like that is contrary to the scriptures referenced above.

Ummm….you’re still having a problem with context. First, Romans 2:11 and Galatians 2:6 say nothing about God’s impartiality. You may have mistyped your reference, so check them again. Second, let’s look at the other verses–

Ephesians 6:9–And you, masters, do the same things to them, giving up threatening, knowing that your own Master also is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.
Colossians 3:24-25–knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve the Lord Christ. But he who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality.
1st Peter 1:17–And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear…

As you can clearly see, these verses talk about God’s impartiality in JUDGING. They are telling us that no matter how great or how mean a man may be, God will all judge all men equally. So then in this way, God IS a “respecter of persons.” Thus, we must determine what it means when it says that “God is not a respecter of persons.” What it means is that He does not care about someone’s status in man’s eyes, God will judge all men by the Law.

Did God look into the future to see who would live in the 21th century? No, election is without respect of persons and the only person God respected was Christ.

Actually, you have a point there. God, before He formed the world, chose people out of every tribe and tongue, so therefore it is true that He chose impartially.

But here’s the thing: the context of Rev 17:8 tells us that the names of those who remain on earth during the Tribulation were not written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world. Your argument that all believers will have their name written in the book of life before the foundation of the world, but this refers to the adopted name of God which becomes theirs makes no sense. The phrase “before the foundation of the world” always refers to the time before the creation. So to say that their name WILL be written in the Book of Life BEFORE the earth is created is, sorry to say, absurd.

Unless you’re saying that God wrote that “new name” in the Lamb’s Book of Life before He formed the world, which may indeed be true.

Finally, Furthermore, you are quoting various persons who claim that faith is a gift of God and that man cannot normally believe the gospel. But there is nothing in the bible that suggests this! There is no scriptural word that says faith must be supernaturally bestowed in the first place. There ain’t nothing like that.

1st Corinthians 2:14–But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1st Corinthians 12:3–Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
2nd Timothy 2:24-25–And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth.

You’re really missing the point about what John has written. Look closely at the context. When John writes about “the inhabitants of the earth,” is he talking about ALL the inhabitants who have ever lived? NO. He is talking about the inhabitants left on earth after the rapture, and who will undergo the Tribulation. “those who dwell on the earth will marvel…when they see the beast.” Those people who will still be dwelling on the earth will marvle at the beast. Does that kinda clear it up a little bit? John is not talking about everyone who has ever dwelt on the earth. He is talking about those who will be dwelling on the earth and who will worship the beast. These are the ones whose names “were not written in the Book of Life.” Sorry, but it’s true. All those who believe have had their name written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world, which is why Christ was “slain from the foundation of the world.”

Now, as for your assessment of Ephesians 2:8-9. Unfortunately, you are trying to apply rules of English grammar to biblical Greek. You can’t always do that. Biblical Greek had forms and cases and tenses that we do not have in English, which makes translation rather difficult. Needless to say, your English illustration cannot be applied to this passage because we do not have “genders” for nouns in English. And the structure Paul uses in this passage is, again, unique to biblical Greek and has been explained quite clearly by Pastor McClarty. The “that” refers each part of the “grace/saved/faith” section to each part of the “not of yourselves/gift of God/not of works” section. Sorry, there is no way around it.

Faith is a gift from God. We do not get it on our own. In John Gill’s commentary, we read of him seeking assistance on this passage from professor of Greek:

“In this verse, to what does the word “that” refer to? Adam Clarke, Wesley & company say that it is neuter plural and “Faith” is feminine hence it cannot refer to faith, (Such an admission would destroy their theological system.) However “Grace” is also feminine as is “Salvation”.”

His reply was:

“Here you ask a wonderful theological/exegetical question to which I can only give an opinion, and not a definitive answer. The problem is that there is NO precise referent. Grace is feminine. Faith is feminine. And even Salvation (as a noun) is feminine. Yet it must be one of these three at least, and maybe more than one, or all three in conjunction. Since all three come from God and not from man, the latter might seem the more likely. However, it is a tautology [unnecessary redundancy--Ed] to say salvation and grace are “not of yourselves,” and in that case it certainly looks more like the passage is really pointing out that man cannot even take credit for his own act of faith, but that faith was itself created by God and implanted in us that we might believe.”

Even an Arminian such as Albert Barnes has said,

Whether this passage proves it or not, it is certainly true that faith is the gift of God.

He goes on to say something I also totally agree with, that

God cannot believe for us. “We” must believe, or “we” shall be damned. Still this does not conflict at all with the opinion, that if we exercise faith, the inclination to do it is to be traced to the agency of God on the heart.

Adam Clarke, another fellow who was of the Wesleyan camp:

Without the grace or power to believe no man ever did or can believe; but with that power the act of faith is a man’s own. God never believes for any man, no more than he repents for him.

We cannot exercise faith we do not have, and we cannot have faith that is not given to us by God.

And apart from the grace of God everyone rejects the command to believe the gospel, therefore the inspired Apostle Paul can truly state that “none are righteous, no not one”. We can see therefore that God is not – and cannot – be pleased by sinful men’s efforts to keep the law (His commandments) because unregenerate men are, by their inherently sinful nature, unable to keep the law. James declares that he who stumbles at one point of the law is guilty of breaking the whole law. Jesus Christ alone lived a life that fully pleased His Father, fulfilling the requirements of absolute sinless perfection and obedience demanded by the law, and thereby God justly imputes Christ’s righteousness to those who believe by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, to the praise and eternal glory of God alone. Salvation is of the Lord.

a helmet said: Our faith is our obedience and hence, our love for God. It is absolutely fundamental. I believe in Jesus Christ because I love God and follow Him. No one disobedient will enter the kingdom of God. You need to be righteous. Righteousness is a necessity (see Matthew 22:1ff, The Parable of The Wedding Banquet).

According to the Holy Bible our faith is the gift of God, and love for God is the supernatural outworking of His grace in the lives of His redeemed. Love for God is the fruit of grace and faith, not the product it. According to the Holy Bible if any man loves God then it’s only because He first loved him, not the other way around. Christ’s perfect obedience and righteousness is imputed to those whom He calls unto Himself out of His boundless oceans of mercy, grace, pity and love. Salvation is the result of God’s unmerited favor, it is not a reward for man’s inherent, natural ability and will to “exercise faith”. Salvation is of the Lord.

a helmet said: No one will be admitted to God’s wedding banquet, the kingdom of God unless he is clothed in righteousness (John 6:44).

Jesus Christ’s perfect righteousness is miraculously imputed to all those who believe by grace alone, through faith alone, in Him alone. Salvation is of the Lord.

Soli Deo Gloria!

In Christ,
CD

Let me first address your wild claims about the “new name” we’re going to receive being the name that was written in the “Book of Life.” However, there is no connection between the two. So then, if you claim that So is there a list of names, written in eternity past with worldy people names? No. You get a new name assigned through adoption. This new name is an eternal name, then how do you get around the fact that John said our names are written there “Before the foundation of the world?” It seems as though you are going to great lengths and using a lot of words to get around what is spelled out clearly in the Scripture.

As far as your assessment of Jim McClarty’s message, again you are using a lot of words to try and refute the clear meaning of the Greek. And in fact you wind up reinforcing the point that grace, salvation, and faith–all three of these–are not of ourselves, they are a gift of God and not of works–all three.

So, bringing this back to the main topic–the fact that the blood Jesus shed was shed not for every single person who will ever live. We read in Romans 3:25 that Christ was put forward to demonstrate God’s righteousness. The word “propitiation” is “used of the cover of the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies, which was sprinkled with the blood of the expiatory victim on the annual day of atonement (this rite signifying that the life of the people, the loss of which they had merited by their sins, was offered to God in the blood as the life of the victim, and that God by this ceremony was appeased and their sins expiated).”

Now, here’s a question: when the blood was shed and sprinkled on the mercy seat, whose sins did that blood cover? Only those who assembled at the tent. If a person did not come, their sins were not covered, and that person was cut off. Leviticus 23:29-30–”For whatsoever soul [it be] that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people. And whatsoever soul [it be] that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.” So then we have the question: could the blood that was sprinkled on the mercy seat have covered the whole nation Israel? Obviously yes. But, was that blood shed for all the nation–or only for those who came?

Likewise, the blood Jesus shed was the “propitiation,” the “sprinkling,” for those whom God chose and had written their names in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world. Additionally, propitiation is defined as “relating to an appeasing or expiating, having placating or expiating force, expiatory; a means of appeasing or expiating.” Did Jesus appease God’s wrath toward all men, or only toward the elect? Obviously Christ appeased God’s wrath toward only those who will be saved, thus the blood He shed was only for those people–not for every single person individually.

I’ve tried reading some of your articles at your site, and wound up more confused than anything trying to follow your reasoning, since you tend to stray quite a distance from what is supposed to be the main topic and introduce ideas that are foreign to the text in an attempt to justify an esoteric theology, rather than simply accept the clear meaning of the Scriptures.

The love for God implies the keeping of His commandments. To love God is to be rigtheous. And we are commanded to believe the gospel (Mt. 22:37; John 14:15; 1 John 5:3; 2 John 6).

Our faith is our obedience and hence, our love for God. It is absolutely fundamental. I believe in Jesus Christ because I love God and follow Him. No one disobedient will enter the kingdom of God. You need to be righteous. Righteousness is a necessity (see Matthew 22:1ff, The Parable of The Wedding Banquet).

No one will be admitted to God’s wedding banquet, the kingdom of God unless he is clothed in righteousness (John 6:44).

@lyn
I responded to the video message by Jim McClarty on my blog (“Comment on the reformed usage of Eph. 2:8-9″).

And I have provided a shortened version of the refutation of that dogma above.

-a helmet

Therefore faith originates from within man, and is of the flesh (not of God), and therefore faith is man’s gift to God, and not God’s gift to man, therefore salvation is by works, the work of faith.

But the truth is that the scriptures teach something else, which is that Salvation is of the Lord.

In Christ,
CD

You’re close, and getting closer. But when you say the gosepl is extended to the entire world, do you mean every single person everywhere who will ever live will hear it? Because if so, then I don’t think anybody would disagree with me when I say that ain’t so.

But yes, salvation only becomes real by believing and confessing (see Romans 10:9-10). But the faith we need in order to believe comes from God. To summarize what Pastor Jim McClarty explains in this video discussing Ephesians 2:8-9–For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God not of works so that no many many boast, the grace, the salvation, and yes even the faith we need in order to believe are gifts from God. I would encourage you to listen to the whole video. But here is what he shows us, in short, from the Greek, in Ephesians 2:8-9:

Grace–not of yourselves, gift of God, not of works
Salvation–not of yourselves, gift of God, not of works
Faith–not of yourselves, gift of God, not of works

Now think about it. If we need faith in order to be saved, and if it is God who gives us the faith we need in order to be saved, and if not every man will be saved, then is it not obvious that God has chosen to give it to some, and not to others? And if that be the case, then can we say that God wants to save all men?

Now think about that question carefully: Does God save all men? That is the question. The question is not “Does God want all men to be saved?” There is a difference. God wants all men to be saved, but He will not go out and save all men. He has chosen some since before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4, 1:11; and Revelation 17:8). It is those–and those alone–that Jesus shed His blood for.

He is “Savior to all men” in that He saves many from His wrath temporarily, but He is “Savior…especially to those who believe” because He saves us from His wrath eternally. That is the distinction Paul is drawing by using the word malista.

If God extends His salvation to all men, then why does He do so “especially” for those who believe? The Greek word translated “especially” is malista, and it means “most of all, chiefly” and is a superlative, meaning that the ones who believe are those whom God saves “most of all.” Let’s look at some other times this word is used in the New Testament.

Galatians 6:10–Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially (malista) to those who are of the household of faith.1st Timothy 5:8–But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially (malista) for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.Titus 1:10–For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially (malista) those of the circumcision.2nd Peter 2:9-10–the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially (malista) those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority.
Let’s look at the last two uses of this word. In Titus 5:8, what we see is that Paul tells Timothy that there will be many deceivers, especially of the circumcision (i.e., the Jews). Now, will there be troublemakers? Yes. But, there is an even more vicious class of deceivers in the Judaizers. In 2nd Peter 2:9-10, we see that God has reserved all the unjust for punishment, and has reserved an even harsher punishment for “who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority.” So whenever you see the word malista, there is a general class of people/things, &c. But then you have a distinct subgroup which is separate from the whole, who, as we see in the above passages:

–those of the faith are to be taken care of even more than ordinary men
–those of one’s household are to be taken care of even more than even one’s relatives
–those of the circumcision will be divisive, even more than other heretics
–those who reject authority will be punished even more than most other believers.

Now, Paul has used the word malista to set up a distinction between “all men” and “those who believe.” God “is Savior of all men,” but those who believe are saved even more than those who don’t. So, what is the distinction? Do those who believe go to a higher Heaven than those who don’t? Well, that question is moot because those who do not believe do not go to Heaven.

That said, we must then seek to understand how God is “Savior of all men” when He doesn’t save all men. For that answer, I would refer you back to my previous comment. He saves the wicked from dangers (seen and unseen), He causes wicked men to prosper, He gives power even to the most dispicable rulers and authorities–knowing that He will not grant these men repentance.

On the other hand, God saves those who do believe with an eternal salvation–He opens our eyes, turns us from darkness to light, grants us repentance, and draws us to Christ. As Jesus Himself said, “No one can come to Me unless My Father draws Him” (John 6:44). John, in the Revelation, wrote that there are names that “were not written in the book of Life from the foundation of the world” (Revelation 17:8).

So, repentance is not granted to every single person. The blood Jesus shed was not for every single person. The Father does not draw every single person to Christ. He chose the ones He would save, He wrote their names in the Book of Life, and Christ came to shed His blood for those, and those alone.

And yes, God will cause some wicked men to prosper like weeds. We see that in the book of Habakkuk. The prophet is crying out because the wicked prosper while the just suffer. God’s reply was that these men would one day face their judgment–although not in this lifetime (and by lifetime, I mean the time they physically walk the earth. I know all about us being “dead in sin”). God Himself raised up the Babylonians and the Assyrians and the Chaldeans, giving them power to rule over vast lands. In fact, Daniel tells Nebuchadnezzar that very fact in Daniel 2:37–”You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory.”

Finally, it is not God’s immutable will to save all men. He desires all men to be saved, but He will not save all men. He knows who He will save (Ephesians 1:4, 11, Revelation 17:8).

God is indeed “Savoir of all men, especially of those who believe.” However, we must examine two key words in this verse.

First, “Savior.” Is God “Savior” of all? In other words, will God save all men eternally? The answer is obviously “No.” So then we look at the phrase “especially of those who believe.” By doing this, we get a clearer picture of what Paul is talking about.

What does it men when it says “God is Savior of all men?” For one, it means that He is the preserver of their lives, and allows them to live as long as He desires. Think about this: Does God prolong the lives of the wicked by protecting them from certain dangers at various times? Yes. Does He cause the rain to fall on the just and the unjust? Yes. Does He cause the sun to shine on the righteous as well as the wicked? Yes. Does He wish for them all to come to repentance? Yes. Will He bring them all to repentance? No. He wishes for them to come to repentance (1st Timothy 2:4), but He will not give them all repentance (1st Timothy 2:25).

So then, when Paul says God is “Savior of all men, especially of those who believe,” we can see that God does save all men in a temporal sense. But He saves those who believe even above and in a greater sense than those who do not believe.

I hope I said that as clearly as I was trying to say it.

-a helmet

You’re very welcome, and I should apologize to you if my comments have across as chastening or scolding towards you, as this wasn’t my intent. I don’t think your comments represent man-centeredness, nor does it appear that you’re engaging in hit-and-run tactics, on the contrary it looks like you’re simply strugging with L.A., just as many, many before you have; including myself.

Based upon a careful survey of your comments I would identify you as an Amyraldian at present. Please understand that this isn’t an insult or a jab, it’s simply my well considered opinion with which you may, or may not agree. I would encourage you to continue your prayerful study on this subject in the light of infallible scripture.

In Christ,
CD

Amen!

I fear you may suspect I am having difficulty with Sovereign Election. I am not. I am just trying to be a ‘Berean’, as we all should. Doctrine says X, I search the scriptures to see if it so.

I know you deal with hit & run arminians, gnostics, and whatnot here, so when the doctrine is questioned, it is usually because the one questioning is an advocate of human free will, or that people aren’t totally wicked, or of works salvation, or ecuemenical this or that, or questioning God’s sovereign right to do whatever He wills with His creation, or that there is no hell, etc.

Please understand, I just want to assure myself, scripturally, that stating Christ only died for the sins of His own lines up with scripture. I certainly agree that, effectually, this is so (but the doctrine, as I have seen it, does not state ‘effectually’). I must then properly understand all scripture that may seem to state otherwise. And for the very purpose you alluded to earlier: scripture is not contradictory to itself. A house divided and all that.

I very much appreciate the links you’ve just provided and am eager to go check them out. I won’t keep clogging your thread here, I asked and received, so I much appreciate your effort in helping to resolve this scripturally.

BTW, the one link you sent concerning 1 John 2:2 is EXACTLY what I was looking for!

A clear, concise, scriptural analysis that reveals what I may have misinterpreted into the text, due to the obvious constraints of the English language in comparison to the Greek.

While I must study this out, this looks to be what will answer my question of whether the doctrine is in line with all acripture. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Thanks for the clarification on the paradox comment…as you may have noticed that’s a bit of a sensitive subject with me!

But moving right along, being open to the Word and willing to submit to its teachings – including the hard teachings – remains the hallmark of the true seeker. Rick Warren and the modern evan-jello movement have done much to discredit the term seeker, and sadly many solid, Bible believing brethren are so accustomed to the use of this word being code language for the Saddleback/Willow Creek paradigm that they immediately shut down and don the full armor of God whenever the word “seeker” is uttered. This is most unfortunate.

The reality is that the Triune One True and Living God does regenerate sinners and cause them to diligently seek after Him, but you won’t find this type of “seeker” “naming it and claiming it” down at the local Pulpit Pimp’s den of thieves, nor will he be found sitting under ear-tickling false teachers who spout platitudes that sound like something ripped directly from Mr. Roger’s Neighborhood: “You’re good enough, you’re smart enough, and doggone it, GAWD LUVS YEW AN’ HAS A WUNNERFUL PLAN FER YER LIFE!”

No, this type of seeker will be seeking to put off the old man, seeking to kill his flesh, seeking mortify his sin, and seeking to joyfully take up his cross daily and follow after Christ as he diligently searches the scriptures where he rejoices to find the very Words of life.

While monergism is a more scholarly resource, here are a couple of links to some shorter articles that I pray you’ll find helpful.

For the sins of the whole world

Understanding 1 John 2:2

“And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.” – Luke 11:9-10

In Christ,
CD