Interestingly there is no “whosoever” whatsoever in John 3:16.
Dr. James White illustrates the fact that “Pas ho pisteuwn” does not equal “whosoever believes“, but rather equals “all the believing ones” or alternatively “everyone believing”. White also points out that in the context of this passage there is no indication whatsoever as to the ability to believe. Therefore the question must be answered, “How does a dead-in-sin-and-trespasses sinner (Eph. 2:1-5) who is utterly insensible (Rom. 3:10-12) and hostile (Rom. 8:7) to the things of God believe (1 Cor. 2:14)?”
Since scripture must always be interpreted by scripture, and we know from John 6:44 that the only ones who can come to Christ are those given unto Him by His Father, then we can easily see that John 3:16, properly exegeted, fits perfectly within the whole counsel of God as a beautiful and glorious affirmation of God’s particular, special saving grace for His elect which salvation The Lord Jesus Christ fully, finally, and infallibly procured once and for all for those who would be given unto Him by the Father through His work upon the cross to the eternal praise of His glory alone forever and evermore.
Soli Deo Gloria!
Pilgrim
thejunglemissionary
Bill
Manfred
abidingthroughgrace
Chris Hohnholz
Two things I have come to learn which are of great value;
1) It’s better to just let God speak plainly, and not try to make him say what we like.
2) Where one sees a term like “properly exegeted”
it normally means a double backflip with the text is being attempted to reverse the obvious meaning.
Are we really to believe that virtually all Bible translators where so utterly stupid as to mistranslate ‘whosoever/whoever’?
John Calvin’s commentary on John 3:16 is worth reading:
“(from John Calvin’s commentary on John 3:16:)
“That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.“”
Just to add to my last comment, to clarify incase someone gets the wrong meaning:
‘whosoever’ is the old English for ‘whoever’, both words mean exactly the same thing.
So when I say “whosoever/whoever”, I am meaning the same word old and modern.
Kevin,
So far I’ve not seen anyone here suggest anything akin to Spurgeon’s example of hyper-calvinism wherein there is a tacit denial that the good-faith offer of the Gospel is to all men, literally. I believe that’s true and I believe the other DefCon editors believe that’s true as well. The context of 2 Peter 3:9, upon which you originally commented, and wherein which I asked a simple question that’s so far gone unanswered, is that God’s will unto salvation is unto His elect only.
This is “God speaking plainly”. Insofar as John 3:16 goes, even if one rejects James White’s exposition and steadfastly holds that word must be translated “whosoever/whoever” it still doesn’t change the argument one bit because we know that no one is willing or able (capable) of responding to that good-faith offer until the day of His power, for we know from the whole counsel of God who the “whosoever/whoever”, are and ever shall be, God’s elect alone.
The good-faith offer of the Gospel is a savor unto death for some (the reprobate), and a savor unto life for others (the elect), amen? In closing I’d humbly suggest that you be very cautious brother, in making blanket dogmatic statements such as when the term “properly exegeted” is used it means “a double backflip with the text is being attempted to reverse the obvious meaning”. You’re painting many, many Godly men with the broad brush of presumptious suspicion and disdainful contempt with these words.
In Christ,
CD
As far as “letting God speak plainly” and slamming those who exegete the Scriptures – English cannot be relied upon as the bedrock of “thus sayeth the Lord”. To rightly understand what God has plainly spoken, proper exegesis is required.
A guiding principle for me in reading Scripture is to examine who is glorified with a given interpretation. If the “whosoever” includes rebrobates unlimited, man is certainly the center of attention. If the “whosoever” means those whom God has chosen, He is the center of attention. It ain’t a foolproof test, but it’s a solid baseline that should cause a saint to stop and think about what he’s been taught be men.
*sigh*
Of course, only the believing ones will have eternal life. The Bible does not say that God has arbitrarily chosen a select few to the absolute exclusion of others.
Who are the ones God draws to Christ? – Those who believe. In John 6, Jesus said he chose all of the Twelve but that one is a devil. He also knew who those were who did not BELIEVE and the one who would betray Him. Why did God not draw those to Christ? They did not believe.
“Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me…” John 6:45
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.” John 6: 47
“Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?” Ezekiel 18:23
Calvinism is not consistent with the whole counsel/scripture of God. Trying to re-translate a word here and there to support a MASSIVE theology that is not supported elsewhere in scripture is dangerous. The elect and predestined are those in Christ. God chose those people to be adopted as sons and to be made in His image.
http://www.aggelia.com/htdocs/predestination.shtml
Wesley,
The questions remain thus:
1) Did God look down through time and see all the ones who would accept Him based on THAT foreknowledge thus making Him, the Almighty Sovereign, a reactionary God? In other words, God saw that we acted, therefore He reacted and had to do something about what He knew we would WANT to do of our “own free will”?
2) If so, what was it about you that would make God come down and die for any sins much less yours or mine? What did God see in you that would make you redeemable?
3) If so, did He then send His only begotten Son down to this earth to indiscriminately pay the penalty for the sins of all mankind (which would include the sins of ALL including people like Hitler)?
4) If so, then must we not conclude that God must have messed up somewhere in His planning in order for puny man to be able to thwart the Sovereign design and purposes of the Creator of heaven and earth?
or….
1) Did God of His own free grace and mercy choose unto Himself a group of individuals who had no merit of their own and had nothing worth saving? That grace was freely given as a gift as was the faith to those individuals who would believe, and was given simply because of the love of God set upon those whom He chose out of ALL who rightly and justly deserved to go to hell forever.
2) If so, wouldn’t it have to be necessarily correct that God would make a way for those whom He elected unto salvation to be able to have eternal fellowship with Him, and to do so, sent His only begotten Son down to this earth to particularly redeem this group of elect individuals?
3) If so, then doesn’t John 3:36 make a LOT of sense instead of the drivel being bandied about from pulpits today about “God is love and has a wonderful plan for your life if you will only walk down this aisle, shake the preacher’s hand, and say the sinner’s prayer” versus “and he who believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him”??
By the way, the issue here is not really whether “Calvinism” is consistent or not with the whole counsel of God. What is at stake is what we are presenting to people! Is it the truth of Scripture? I do not hold to all that is purported to be from Calvin by any stretch of the imagination, but I do adhere to the doctrines of grace which I see taught clearly and without the aid of outside books. I see that despite the wretch that I was (and at times still live like and can be in my heart), AMAZING GRACE was poured out to me. I was blind and could not give myself sight. I was lost and could not “FIND” God as so many claim to have done.
The Desert Pastor
Why don’t we back up 18 verses to the time right before Jesus and Nicodemus had this conversation. 2:23-25 here we find many “believed in his name”v23. Yet v24 says “Jesus did not commit himself unto them”. They believed but he didn’t believe them. How shocking! Why you might ask? v24b “he knew all men” thats right he knows the heart! He pulled away from them but expounded three times to Nicodemus 3:3, 5-8, 10-21.
How shocking! He chose one and left many! Oh, but this one will bear fruit! He goes from secretive night time questioning to a day time defence in 7:50-52 and to an even bolder statment of faith by burying the body of Christ before the passover 19:39-42. God, my friends, knew the heart of Nicodemus. He also knew the hearts of those in 2:23! John 3:16 belongs to those who have a heart like Nicodemus. After all, that is who the Lord was speaking to!
DP,
Your logic is flawed. It is clear in the Old Testament that the nation of Israel often individually and collectively thwarted God’s plan for them, albeit it more protracted it. In fact, God had to destroy the entire population while leaving only eight righteous in Noah’s Ark. By Israel sinning and being unrepentant, they incurred His wrath rather than His blessing. God’s mercy to His people allowed Him to fulfill His promise to Abraham and ultimately bring the Messiah. That was God’s plan. Humans did not stop that ultimate redemption for mankind. The ones God foreknew and predestined are the ones who would repent and believe in Christ. Before the sin of man God already had the way to redemption. Christ was slain before the foundation of the world. Those who would repent and believe are the elect. God knew those. He’s not reactionary. His plans were laid before the foundation of the world. That’s why He says depart from me – I never knew you. We cannot earn our redemption, but we can see our sin and realize that we need Christ. The Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. Another reason why Calvinism is not Biblical is because it leads to anarchy and chaos. With Calvinism no one can know if they are truly born again. They can only know for sure when they stand before God. It leads to confusion, doubt, and fear! God is not the author of fear. He is not the author of confusion. God’s covenant in the OT was clear. It is also clear in the new covenant.
Harold,
Were there not plots in Jerusalem and hatred toward Christ among the Jews? Many believed because of the signs but not all. Jesus said He knew all people. He knew people were plotting. That’s why He did not entrust Himself to them. He knew of some of their hatred and their plotting toward Him.
Wesley,
Verse 23 of ch 2 is speaking of those who to some degree believed. They are the ones refered to in v24 as “THEM”. Read the text, it is clear. This was the first trip Jesus made to Jerusalem during his public ministry. That is why a sign was demanded in 2:18, the Jews didn’t know him yet. Signs and wonders will not make Christians only grace applied by the Holy Spirit. John Newton said it well “T’was grace that taught my heart to fear, and grace my fears relieved”.
Wesley~ you state this, ‘Who are the ones God draws to Christ? – Those who believe.’ I ask you this, how is it one believes?
Jeremiah 17:9 says this, ‘ The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?’ The phrase ‘desperately wicked’ means ‘to be sick, to be incurable’. So, the human heart has a condition that is incurable, no one can fix it. The condition is sin. From John 8:34,’Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.’ Sin is more powerful than the human ‘will’, it is a bondage that no man can free himself from. The very nature of man is sinful; no one lost in sin desires the things of God. No one seeks Him. ‘As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.’ Romans 3:10,11
In John 3:36, the word believe comes from the Greek ‘pisteuō’ -to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith. Pisteuo comes from the root word ‘pistis’ – a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God’.
God’s word clearly teaches the human heart is spiritually dead, unable to respond because of it’s diagnosis, sin. How then is it possible for such a heart to respond favorably to the very things it is dead and unresponsive to? How does such a heart come to believe the Gospel?
Everything about our salvation is of God. He is the One who humbles and saves. He is the one who draws those whom He calls to Christ. Since no one can believe apart from God’s intervention, it must be said that God has predestined from the foundations of the world those whom He calls.
It truly is a miracle that God saves ANY, for not one is worthy.
You’re not understanding scripture. Man is inherently selfish. That’s why we sin. But, are we totally incapable of doing “good”? Are we totally incapable of obeying God’s law to a degree? No. We are not. We can respond to the law and commandment of God while knowing full well that we can never live up to His perfect and holy standard. That’s why we need Christ. In the Old Testament, God set before them blessing and cursing and told them to choose whom they would serve. God wanted the wicked to turn from their sin two righteousness and even gave them longer time to repent! We are certainly capable of acknowledging our condition and humbling ourselves before the Lord. What we cannot do is change that inherent condition. Only Christ can do that through salvation, justification, and sanctification. This is the gift of God. This is the love and grace of God. God gives us many indicators of our condition before His eyes! The Law brings us to the Cross, and grace takes us from there to treat our sinful condition.
Actually Wesley, based upon your comments here thus far it is clearly you who has failed to properly understand the scriptures. This is very natural and it’s been well said that we are all Arminians at heart. This is true because the sin nature inside of men’s hearts naturally seeks to cooperate with God and do “our part” in our own salvation. It’s an inherent part of our fallen, sinful nature to be idolatrous, and self-righteous, and to exalt ourselves. Yet this being said men who profess Christ ought to fervently pray that the Spirit might disabuse them of such unscriptural notions by supernaturally opening their eyes to the truth of the written Word of God.
Men sin because they are sinners, men aren’t sinners because they sin. Mankind is conceived and born in sin. Ever since Adam all mankind – apart from the Lord Jesus Christ Himself – are born in the flesh completely fallen, and totally dead in trespass and sin, being completely and utterly insensible to the things of God. Every area of fallen man, sprit, soul, body, and mind has been pervasively and totally corrupted by sin.
The Bible never teaches so-called “free will” at any point, instead it constantly points to the absolute bondage of the human will to sin and trespass. This is easily seen by the fact that sinful man always sets himself up in the place of God in his own depraved, desperately wicked, perverse, and idolatrous heart. The Biblical narrative is one of man’s utter hopelessness, futility and perpetual idolatry, and his stiff-necked rebellion against the One True and Living God, the Infinite Creator and Judge of the universe.
Therefore the question must be answered, “How does a dead-in-sin-and-trespasses sinner (Eph. 2:1-5) who is utterly insensible (Rom. 3:10-12) and hostile (Rom. 8:7) to the things of God believe unto salvation (1 Cor. 2:14)?”
Are some men more holy than others so that they choose better?
Are some men simply smarter than other men which causes them to choose better?
Does God give more grace to one man than another allowing the former to choose better?
The Holy Bible answers such questions with a resounding “NO!” God Himself seeks and saves sinners. Jesus Christ came into the world to seek and save and redeem His own. God always takes the initiative in salvation, and He always does the choosing.
Yet what you’re claiming here is nothing less than the natural man, which the scriptures describe as spiritually dead, not infirmed, not debilitated, not injured, but D-E-A-D, in trespass and sin somehow still retains the ability in and of himself to choose favorably for the things of the Spirit, which “free will” action actually precedes or else precipitates the effectual grace of God.
But dead men don’t do such things.
Dead men are incapable of doing such things.
In fact the Bible teaches that it is impossible for those who are in the flesh (unregenerate humanity) to even comprehend the things of the spirit, and the inspired Apostle Paul universally indicts all of humanity in Romans 3:10-12 teaching that no one does good nor seeks after God, no not one! What you are claiming here is error, and it is absolutely contrary to the plain teachings of the New Testament.
Since scripture must always be interpreted by scripture, and we know from John 6:44 that the only ones who can come to Christ are those given unto Him by His Father (ALL of whom He declares He will raise up at the last day), therefore we can clearly see that John 3:16, when properly exegeted, fits perfectly within the whole counsel of God as a beautiful and glorious affirmation of God’s particular, special saving grace for His elect which salvation The Lord Jesus Christ fully, finally, and infallibly procured once and for all for those who would be given unto Him by the Father through His work upon the cross to the eternal praise of His glory alone forever and evermore.
The Lord God omnipotent didn’t simply look down through time and write His book of predestination based upon His foreknowledge of the “decisions” of sinful men, thereby reacting to the sinful creature, rather the scriptures plainly teach that He as Creator and God Almighty foreordained unto salvation His elect saints whom He predestined (destined before) unto salvation from eternity past according to His own perfect and good will, by His own inscrutable wisdom, from His own boundless oceans of mercy, grace, pity and love, to the eternal praise of His glory alone.
God effectually causes in the day of His power – and by the exact same power that raised Christ from the dead – His elect to miraculously become born-again by the washing of Christ’s blood in the regenerating act of the Holy Spirit unto salvation, thereby enabling His own to spiritually desire the things of God, drawing His own infallibly to Himself and making them new creatures in Christ. This is the Lord’s doing and it is marvelous in our eyes!
Salvation is of the Lord, Wesley; this is the summation of the whole theme of Biblical redemption. The very moment wherein sinful man tries to slip in the smallest amount of works, as you’re doing here, then grace is nullified and found to be despised by the creature who is thereby guilty of exalting himself above the Creator, robbing the One True and Living God of the glory due to Him and Him alone.
I pray that you’ll continue returning here.
In Christ,
CD
Wesley,
I would like to have you give me your take on a passage of Scripture. It’s in Romans, in chapter 3 and verse 11, when Paul writes, “There is none who seeks after God.” Now, if God draws those who believe, yet Paul says there is none who believes, is this not a contradiction?
How then would you interpret this passage from Romans?
You were predestined to feel that embarrassment.
If man were capable of choosing to believe the Good News (even putting aside that the Bible declares no man seeks after God, no not one and all other wealth of scripture indicating the dead nature of the unregenerate heart) without any supernatural work of the Spirit upon his heart, and God made no sovereign predetermined choice to save that man, that same man has thus chosen his own destiny.
If said man has already chosen his own destiny as a believer without God’s predetermination, why would God need to predestine him? How does God hand a destiny to a man who clearly chooses his own destiny? How can God predetermine what would obstensibly be left to the man himself to determine? How is that not illogical?
If said man, in explanation of these illogical components, claims he did in fact need some sort of push of some type by God to make the leap to belief and thus labels this ‘act’ the predestination of God, then he did not in fact choose to believe on his own.
Furthermore, if said man received a nudge from the Lord to be able to choose his destiny to become a believer, do all men likewise equally receive this nudge? For surely, it would no longer be right that one man received a nudge but not the next because by ‘nudging’ one, God would, Respector of man’s free will to choose as He is painted to be by this man, be obligated to offer such nudges universally to give each man the same platform for choosing his own destiny.
It all becomes very circular and nonsensical because the facts do not add up. Entire cultures in time never received the Gospel. Obviously, if God willed that all men have equal ability to choose a destiny of belief, they would have received it.
Ergo, God is purposely selective in saving grace. How He chooses is beyond the scope of scripture. We are only assured that it has nothing to do with any perceived goodness, righteousness, loveliness or understanding in and of ourselves. For just as the Lord said to the dispersed Jews, He did not restore them because of them but for His holy name’s sake.
If God is God and He predestines, what He predestines is not subject to the will of others. Nor is this ‘forcing’ some to love God. Rather, since all are incapable of loving Him, through regeneration He enables by grace some to now have to capability to love God. Now they are actually capable of believing. Salvation, grace, and faith are all a gift from God, not just salvation and grace.
Ergo, God is purposely selective in saving grace. How He chooses is beyond the scope of scripture.
I was listening to Jim McClarty (Grace Christian Assembly, website salvationbygrace.org) the other day. Although he was talking about the subject of “losing” salvation (an impossible concept if there ever was one), the argument he made still applies here.
Basically, the premise was this: If God is in control of when you die, and He knows if a person is saved or not, then, in the end, if yo die while you are saved, or you die while you are lost, God is still truly in control of who is saved and who isn’t.
Fourpointer:
Agreed. God is in control of all of His creation, anywhere, anywhen, and anyone.
I think perhaps those of Arminian persuasion cannot (or will not?) undertsand that predestination to salvation is an awesome display of God’s love in grace to the utterly unworthy. It definitely shows the incredible character of God’s everlasting and faithful love, in that while we yet hated Him without a cause, He chose to love us.
When I was saved a few years ago, it was definitely under Arminian tutelage. Yet, as I learned to study the Word, my arguments against God’s predestination really started to crumble. I could not resolve the plain message shown both in ‘types’ (such as a the story of Isreal) and in blatant statements by God, that man’s will without His regenerating grace, is absolutely in bondage to rebellion because of man’s sinful nature, with which he is born.
I, God forgive me, would vehemently argue with those of Reformed theology, using the same common verses of scripture as always used by Arminians. When by grace, one is humbled under the authority of scripture, and that scripture interprets scripture, the idea that man has some degree of neutrality to choose good or evil in and of himself evaporates.
Now, having by God’s grace in the last couple of years being humbled under truth, I am amazed I ever thought so highly of man’s will and selfrighteousness and so lowly of God’s grace, mercy, faithfulness, and love. The Word screams out that God alone has done everything for His children through Christ Jesus our Lord and that the glory is ALL His because we did nothing, not even a ‘decision for Jesus’.
BTW, I like Jim McClarty, too. He is blessed to be able to break lofty concepts down into ‘layman’s terms’ without sacrificing any intellectual or, more importantly, scriptural integrity.
To follow Christ was the best decission God made for me.