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	<title>Comments on: Read it and weep</title>
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	<description>Defending truth and contending for the Faith while carrying the Light of the Gospel into a world shrouded in darkness.</description>
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		<title>By: DavidW</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/05/15/read-it-and-weep/#comment-15222</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DavidW]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 18:45:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=10269#comment-15222</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[shane:
You asked: &quot;Isn’t Paul saying that the true gift would not contradict how Paul said it was to be used?&quot;

A true gift of God is expected to be used according to His revealed will (as described in His word) and purpose for it.  Because someone claims to have a gift of the Spirit, does not make it so.  And if someone says he has such a gift, and the use of it does not bear evidence of how it is used in the Scriptures, I would be extremely suspect that it is the true gift of the Spirit (for God does not contradict His own word).  In like manner, if a false teacher speaks in another language &quot;miraculously&quot;, and the hearer accurately verifies he miraculously spoke to him in a language he understood, that doesn&#039;t match with Scripture either by virtue of the fact that it is coming from a false teacher (to whom God does not give His spiritual gifts.  And as I mentioned earlier, as miraculous as something may appear, if it is not clearly supported by the whole of God&#039;s word, it is conterfeit).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>shane:<br />
You asked: &#8220;Isn’t Paul saying that the true gift would not contradict how Paul said it was to be used?&#8221;</p>
<p>A true gift of God is expected to be used according to His revealed will (as described in His word) and purpose for it.  Because someone claims to have a gift of the Spirit, does not make it so.  And if someone says he has such a gift, and the use of it does not bear evidence of how it is used in the Scriptures, I would be extremely suspect that it is the true gift of the Spirit (for God does not contradict His own word).  In like manner, if a false teacher speaks in another language &#8220;miraculously&#8221;, and the hearer accurately verifies he miraculously spoke to him in a language he understood, that doesn&#8217;t match with Scripture either by virtue of the fact that it is coming from a false teacher (to whom God does not give His spiritual gifts.  And as I mentioned earlier, as miraculous as something may appear, if it is not clearly supported by the whole of God&#8217;s word, it is conterfeit).</p>
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		<title>By: DavidW</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/05/15/read-it-and-weep/#comment-15219</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DavidW]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:45:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=10269#comment-15219</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[glenn:
We could go into depth about this, but I don&#039;t see any significant spiritual benefit in doing so.  I would agree with the basic premise that though some misuse God&#039;s gifts, that does not negate the gift itself.  Having been a Charismatic for a few years as a young Christian, I was taught the same verses on tongues that I now look at and see very differently.  I believe what truly matters should be more on the order of: Who God is, what His character and attributes are, what He has done, what He has said, and what He requires of us.  There was certainly confusion on the use of the gift of Tongues in the early church, and after some 1900 years there is still confusion.  Suffice it to say, I do not believe tongues should be a subject to divide brethren, nor an issue of contention.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>glenn:<br />
We could go into depth about this, but I don&#8217;t see any significant spiritual benefit in doing so.  I would agree with the basic premise that though some misuse God&#8217;s gifts, that does not negate the gift itself.  Having been a Charismatic for a few years as a young Christian, I was taught the same verses on tongues that I now look at and see very differently.  I believe what truly matters should be more on the order of: Who God is, what His character and attributes are, what He has done, what He has said, and what He requires of us.  There was certainly confusion on the use of the gift of Tongues in the early church, and after some 1900 years there is still confusion.  Suffice it to say, I do not believe tongues should be a subject to divide brethren, nor an issue of contention.</p>
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		<title>By: glenn christopherson</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/05/15/read-it-and-weep/#comment-15214</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[glenn christopherson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 04:43:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=10269#comment-15214</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David W
The issue of speaking in tongues is not something I spend a lot of time on.Suffice to say ;Acts ch2 records the different people groups hearing the 120 declaring praises to God in various languages but Peter still had to preach the gospel in a commonly understood language for them to be saved. Paul said 1 Cor 14:18-19 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; yet in the church I would rather speak 5 words with my understanding , that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

v2 of the same chapter; &quot;He who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him&quot;

My brother ,the misuse of God&#039;s gifts by some do not negate His provision.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David W<br />
The issue of speaking in tongues is not something I spend a lot of time on.Suffice to say ;Acts ch2 records the different people groups hearing the 120 declaring praises to God in various languages but Peter still had to preach the gospel in a commonly understood language for them to be saved. Paul said 1 Cor 14:18-19 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; yet in the church I would rather speak 5 words with my understanding , that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.</p>
<p>v2 of the same chapter; &#8220;He who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him&#8221;</p>
<p>My brother ,the misuse of God&#8217;s gifts by some do not negate His provision.</p>
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		<title>By: shane</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/05/15/read-it-and-weep/#comment-15213</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[shane]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 02:43:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=10269#comment-15213</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I may be wrong but, I read somewhere that some people from the Parham school in Kansas or it may have been from Azuza Street, can&#039;t remember, thought they had the gift of tongues so they went to another country thinking they could spread the Gospel in the native language but, they failed. 

I grew up in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. About everytime I seen the &quot;gift of tongues&quot; exercised. It was always contradictory to how Paul laid out the use of it.

1Cor14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1Cor14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Isn&#039;t Paul saying that the true gift would not contradict how Paul said it was to be used?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I may be wrong but, I read somewhere that some people from the Parham school in Kansas or it may have been from Azuza Street, can&#8217;t remember, thought they had the gift of tongues so they went to another country thinking they could spread the Gospel in the native language but, they failed. </p>
<p>I grew up in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. About everytime I seen the &#8220;gift of tongues&#8221; exercised. It was always contradictory to how Paul laid out the use of it.</p>
<p>1Cor14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.<br />
1Cor14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.</p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t Paul saying that the true gift would not contradict how Paul said it was to be used?</p>
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		<title>By: DavidW</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/05/15/read-it-and-weep/#comment-15212</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DavidW]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 00:46:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=10269#comment-15212</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[glenn:
As I see in Acts 2, &quot;Tongues&quot; as we call it in English, were known human languages in use at the time (&quot;aren&#039;t all these who are speaking Galileans? How is it we hear every man in our own tongue where we were born?&quot;).  The miracle was that these Galileans were speaking many different languages and dialects of the Roman Empire.  It would be like a group of Americans all of the sudden speaking languages they had not learned: Chinese, French, German, Russian, etc. in the presence of delegates at the U.N.   The purpose was to attract attention to everyone in hearing distance that this was totally an act of God, so they could hear the Gospel.  It most certainly was used in public, and was meant to spread the Gospel.  

Paul refers to it&#039;s proper use and misuse in the churches. It doesn&#039;t profit the whole church unless there is an interpreter.   Charismatics have taken this to a practice unsupported by the Scriptures.  Their use of jibberish, which no one present can testify, therefore no one can say &quot;I know this language, and this is what he is saying&quot;, is not biblical tongues.  In the early church, when they worshipped God in an unknown tongue (unknown to the speaker), it wasn&#039;t so God could understand them, but so the people around who did not know the language could understand and worship God.  That&#039;s the reason for the interpreter.  But if he&#039;s going to get up in his group of Jews, and start speaking Russian, he&#039;s not benefiting the church at all.  There&#039;s no need to speak Russian if they were all Jews.  The point of tongues isn&#039;t for those who all speak the same language, but for those who don&#039;t.  And if they do all speak the same language, Paul says it&#039;s better to prophesy rather than speak tongues.  Tongues is a gift to break through the language barrier.  The early church were mostly Jews.  How else other than through a miraculous gift of tongues can the Gospel spread from Jew to Elamite?  From Elamite to Libyan?  From Libyan to Roman?  

My point about Ernest Angely is, if he claims to have the gift of Tongues, it is a miraculous gift, and he would automatically be speaking what God wanted him to speak in the language of those he was speaking to (as at Pentecost).  If I supposedly had such a gift, and God sent me to proclaim the Gospel to, say, some Pacific Islanders for instance, He would give me the gift of speaking their &quot;tongue&quot;, their language.  It defeats the whole purpose to speak some jibberish to them that they don&#039;t understand, then have an interpreter to tell them what I was saying to them in their own language, because that would prove I don&#039;t really have the gift of tongues.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>glenn:<br />
As I see in Acts 2, &#8220;Tongues&#8221; as we call it in English, were known human languages in use at the time (&#8220;aren&#8217;t all these who are speaking Galileans? How is it we hear every man in our own tongue where we were born?&#8221;).  The miracle was that these Galileans were speaking many different languages and dialects of the Roman Empire.  It would be like a group of Americans all of the sudden speaking languages they had not learned: Chinese, French, German, Russian, etc. in the presence of delegates at the U.N.   The purpose was to attract attention to everyone in hearing distance that this was totally an act of God, so they could hear the Gospel.  It most certainly was used in public, and was meant to spread the Gospel.  </p>
<p>Paul refers to it&#8217;s proper use and misuse in the churches. It doesn&#8217;t profit the whole church unless there is an interpreter.   Charismatics have taken this to a practice unsupported by the Scriptures.  Their use of jibberish, which no one present can testify, therefore no one can say &#8220;I know this language, and this is what he is saying&#8221;, is not biblical tongues.  In the early church, when they worshipped God in an unknown tongue (unknown to the speaker), it wasn&#8217;t so God could understand them, but so the people around who did not know the language could understand and worship God.  That&#8217;s the reason for the interpreter.  But if he&#8217;s going to get up in his group of Jews, and start speaking Russian, he&#8217;s not benefiting the church at all.  There&#8217;s no need to speak Russian if they were all Jews.  The point of tongues isn&#8217;t for those who all speak the same language, but for those who don&#8217;t.  And if they do all speak the same language, Paul says it&#8217;s better to prophesy rather than speak tongues.  Tongues is a gift to break through the language barrier.  The early church were mostly Jews.  How else other than through a miraculous gift of tongues can the Gospel spread from Jew to Elamite?  From Elamite to Libyan?  From Libyan to Roman?  </p>
<p>My point about Ernest Angely is, if he claims to have the gift of Tongues, it is a miraculous gift, and he would automatically be speaking what God wanted him to speak in the language of those he was speaking to (as at Pentecost).  If I supposedly had such a gift, and God sent me to proclaim the Gospel to, say, some Pacific Islanders for instance, He would give me the gift of speaking their &#8220;tongue&#8221;, their language.  It defeats the whole purpose to speak some jibberish to them that they don&#8217;t understand, then have an interpreter to tell them what I was saying to them in their own language, because that would prove I don&#8217;t really have the gift of tongues.</p>
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		<title>By: glenn christopherson</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/05/15/read-it-and-weep/#comment-15211</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[glenn christopherson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 23:28:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=10269#comment-15211</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David W
I am not defending Earnest Angley( never heard of him) but the gift of tongues according to scripture is primarily for worship and not for preaching. Paul the apostle forbade tongues use in public without an interpreter. Hope that helps clarify]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David W<br />
I am not defending Earnest Angley( never heard of him) but the gift of tongues according to scripture is primarily for worship and not for preaching. Paul the apostle forbade tongues use in public without an interpreter. Hope that helps clarify</p>
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		<title>By: Ministry Addict</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/05/15/read-it-and-weep/#comment-15205</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ministry Addict]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 18:14:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=10269#comment-15205</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When Jesus Christ went to the temple in ancient Israel, He was angry about what the Jews had done to the “Court of the Gentiles.”  This was supposed to be a place where Gentiles learned to worship the One True God, but instead it had become a way for the temple priests and leaders to make a profit. (Matthew 21:12-13)

It is clear from the Bible that those who know God are to share that knowledge with those who do not know God.  Under the Old Covenant, the Jews were supposed to be good examples to Gentiles, and to share their faith with unbelievers.  Under the New Covenant, Christians are supposed to do likewise toward those who are without Christ.  This is a sharp rebuke to those who would gear their church services toward either profit or entertainment.  Certainly people who trust in Christ have every reason to be joyful – especially when we congregate together.  But we must be very careful of the external appearance of our worship.  “If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?” (I Corinthians 14:23)  

The proclamation of the Word of God and prayer – not exuberant confusion - should be given the most time, the most attention, and the most emphasis whenever there is the possibility of an unbeliever coming in among an assembly of believers.  “But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:  And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.” (I Corinthians 14:24-25)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When Jesus Christ went to the temple in ancient Israel, He was angry about what the Jews had done to the “Court of the Gentiles.”  This was supposed to be a place where Gentiles learned to worship the One True God, but instead it had become a way for the temple priests and leaders to make a profit. (Matthew 21:12-13)</p>
<p>It is clear from the Bible that those who know God are to share that knowledge with those who do not know God.  Under the Old Covenant, the Jews were supposed to be good examples to Gentiles, and to share their faith with unbelievers.  Under the New Covenant, Christians are supposed to do likewise toward those who are without Christ.  This is a sharp rebuke to those who would gear their church services toward either profit or entertainment.  Certainly people who trust in Christ have every reason to be joyful – especially when we congregate together.  But we must be very careful of the external appearance of our worship.  “If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?” (I Corinthians 14:23)  </p>
<p>The proclamation of the Word of God and prayer – not exuberant confusion &#8211; should be given the most time, the most attention, and the most emphasis whenever there is the possibility of an unbeliever coming in among an assembly of believers.  “But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:  And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.” (I Corinthians 14:24-25)</p>
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		<title>By: DavidW</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/05/15/read-it-and-weep/#comment-15204</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DavidW]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 17:12:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=10269#comment-15204</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[shane:
I actually have seen miracles, performed in Charismatic churches.  I have seen a leg physically lengthen before my own eyes.  For a while I was as fooled as everyone else.  I mean, what more proof do we need, a miracle actually happened.  And so our natural reasoning goes.  And then we go to God&#039;s word, and we see a whole different story.  We see Satan can, and did, do miracles as well.  We see his workers doing miracles.  We read that the false prophet to come will do open, public miracles.  So we see not all miracles are from God.  

When the Holy Spirit does a miracle, it will always, always, be in perfect harmony with God&#039;s revealed word.  That is, He will never perform a miracle at the hands of someone who also teaches false doctrine, nor will it be a miracle to help you indulge your flesh (like dropping a billion bucks on your doorstep), nor will it be a miracle that in any way furthers anything which is unbiblical.  A miracle from God will always be to draw one to salvation, or out of mercy for God&#039;s children to continue to do His work, or in some way to further His kingdom.   There is a difference between what God does, and what He allows to happen.

And you are right: why would someone with the &quot;gift of Tongues&quot; need an interpreter for someone he is supposedly speaking to?  A bit contradictory, isn&#039;t it?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>shane:<br />
I actually have seen miracles, performed in Charismatic churches.  I have seen a leg physically lengthen before my own eyes.  For a while I was as fooled as everyone else.  I mean, what more proof do we need, a miracle actually happened.  And so our natural reasoning goes.  And then we go to God&#8217;s word, and we see a whole different story.  We see Satan can, and did, do miracles as well.  We see his workers doing miracles.  We read that the false prophet to come will do open, public miracles.  So we see not all miracles are from God.  </p>
<p>When the Holy Spirit does a miracle, it will always, always, be in perfect harmony with God&#8217;s revealed word.  That is, He will never perform a miracle at the hands of someone who also teaches false doctrine, nor will it be a miracle to help you indulge your flesh (like dropping a billion bucks on your doorstep), nor will it be a miracle that in any way furthers anything which is unbiblical.  A miracle from God will always be to draw one to salvation, or out of mercy for God&#8217;s children to continue to do His work, or in some way to further His kingdom.   There is a difference between what God does, and what He allows to happen.</p>
<p>And you are right: why would someone with the &#8220;gift of Tongues&#8221; need an interpreter for someone he is supposedly speaking to?  A bit contradictory, isn&#8217;t it?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: shane</title>
		<link>http://defendingcontending.com/2009/05/15/read-it-and-weep/#comment-15200</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[shane]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:31:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://defendingcontending.com/?p=10269#comment-15200</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[2Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
2Timothy 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.

I really think that Paul was talking about people like Benny, Todd, etc... in these verses. The two magicians could reproduce some of the miracles, to an extent, that God was doing.  

These modern &quot;miracle men&quot; only seem to do certain types of healings. Ones that can&#039;t be outwardly verified. Such as regrown limbs, withered limbs, etc.... 

Not to mention the dribble that comes out of these mens mouths.

One thing I seen the other day on television was Earnest Angly at a crusade in Africa. He had to have an interpretor. If he has the gift of tongues why would he need an interprator to speak for him?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>2Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.<br />
2Timothy 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.</p>
<p>I really think that Paul was talking about people like Benny, Todd, etc&#8230; in these verses. The two magicians could reproduce some of the miracles, to an extent, that God was doing.  </p>
<p>These modern &#8220;miracle men&#8221; only seem to do certain types of healings. Ones that can&#8217;t be outwardly verified. Such as regrown limbs, withered limbs, etc&#8230;. </p>
<p>Not to mention the dribble that comes out of these mens mouths.</p>
<p>One thing I seen the other day on television was Earnest Angly at a crusade in Africa. He had to have an interpretor. If he has the gift of tongues why would he need an interprator to speak for him?</p>
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