Mark Driscoll to preach at the Crystal Cathedral.

Mark Driscoll Alley

***** UPDATE *****

Review of Driscoll’s sermon at the Crystal Cathedral can be found here.

Lighthouse Trails, Church Solutions, Thinking Out Loud, Slice of Laodicea, and even Mark Driscoll’s calendar on his website are announcing the upcoming June 14th event.

Apparently this isn’t the first time he’s been featured there. He spoke at Schuller’s 2004 conference and his messages are still available for purchase from the Crystal Cathedral online bookstore.

It shall be interesting to see how this plays out.

On a side note, while not too shocked to see Driscoll appear at this rank heretic’s church, I was disappointed to see Joni Eareckson Tada there. They’re even selling her book. Is there no longer any discernment in the body of Christ?

100 thoughts on “Mark Driscoll to preach at the Crystal Cathedral.

  1. You are correct brother. We are not at all surprised to see the cussing “pastor” at this venue. In answering your question :

    ” Is there no longer any discernment in the body of Christ? ”

    I think you know the answer to that;
    Yes there is, the question remains though whether anyone that attends such a venue is actually in the body of Christ !

    Thanks once again for the heads up, brother. I wonder how the driscollites will defend this behaviour ?

    – dale

  2. Does this mean that Piper will finally distance himself from Driscoll? I had a funny feeling that even after that post at Steve Camp’s blog that Driscoll hadn’t quite turned the corner yet.

    Of course, maybe we’ll be shocked and he’ll have an Areopagus moment and preach the true gospel to a crowd of flesh-worshippers.

  3. I would encourage these pastors, teachers and authors who are continuing to show themselves supporters of these heretics by appearing and speaking at their conferences to carefully ready 2 John. (And for everyone who starts up on their soapbox about the importance of teaching good doctrine in the den of these heretics let me say that I would agree with you when I actually see someone speak out against the heresies at these conferences. Unfortunately this does not happen – ever!)

    Oh how much Driscoll can become a stumbling block to weaker Christians as they see him alongside such a heretic as Shuller. Do Driscoll and others not see this horrible danger?

    It truly is concerning in this day and age. Maranatha Lord Jesus!

  4. Actually, the service show will probably begin with a rousing rendition of “How Great I Am” and a Crystal Cathedral Beauty Mini-Pageant hosted and starring Prejean to introduce Driscoll’s newest updated more relevant series on how it is ok to look like the world, dress like the world, entice the lusts of the flesh like the world, wear nothing like the world, and in general show nothing of the life-change that is a pre-requisite to claiming the name of Christ.

    Doctrine will probably take second place to making sure that 1000’s will feel good about themselves as they leave for their 12:00 tall, skinny, double-shot of mocha latte at the Crystal Cathedral “I Am God” Cafe where they can order some of the speaker’s greatest offerings like “Trash Talking in the Pulpit for Pastor Wanna-be’s” or “Sexual Innuendos from the Song of Solomon” or maybe even “More Ashamed of the Gospel Than the Grunge of the World.”

    Fourpointer, while I speak with tongue-in-cheek, I am gravely disappointed at what I am seeing taking place in pulpits of so-called evangelical churches. I expect it in the heresy ridden places like Crystal Cathedral, but when those who have once stood for the faith condescend to enjoy the applaud of men’s hands – it is worse than tragic!

    The Desert Pastor

  5. David says:

    I agree with all the comments that are being left. The more and more I read about Driscoll, listen to his sermons, and watch his videos, the more I see him going away from the Word. It saddens me when people defend his sexual sermons as being what we need now a days.

    What also saddens me, and I like alot of what Steve Camp has on his site, is that there are people who leave comments on there that seem to think the way Carrie Prejean was dressed and with all the pictures out there of her is not sinful. I even had a friend on Facebook accuse me of being hateful to her when I mentioned the way she was dressed has and probably will cause men to lust after her. This friend (a female) said I can’t lay the blame at Carrie’s feet because men are lusting after her.

    Now, I am not attacking the woman (just to let those people know that may think I am), but to call Christ your Savior yet to dress in the ways that are approved by the world like the Miss USA contest is, it makes your fruits not look so good.

    I could be all wrong about this, but the more and more I have read scripture dealing with this, the more I see her in error.

    (Sorry to bring up more about Carrie than Mark but I saw DP mention her also with the Crystal Cathedral so I wanted to say something about her also).

  6. Darrel says:

    The gathering of the false prophets! At a “church” that is not! To hear a message from their father, the devil.

    Paul Washer is right about these men, they ARE the judgement of God.

  7. Rob says:

    Yes, Schuller is a heretic. Yes, Driscoll is close if not yet. This issue came up with some of my friends when Ray Comfort appeared on Joyce Meyer. Though he didn’t approve at all of the false prosperity gospel, he accepted the invitation because even false converts deserve to hear the true gospel. Will this be a bold moment for Driscoll’s “ministry”, I doubt it. I’m not entirely convinced that the venue should disqualify the message.

  8. mbaker says:

    Okay, weighing in here on what I think should happen.

    Mark is well acquainted by now with the criticisms of his ministry, i.e in removing some of his sexual ‘sermons’ from his site.

    Let’s see if he is really listening to the entire body of Christ. If he preaches a real gospel message, which he has an ideal venue to do in this conference, as opposed to the soft gospel of Robert Schuller, then we can judge accordingly.

    If not, then our worst fears about him will be realized.

    Hopefully, he is not unaware of that. Let’s wait and see if he’s going to be true to Christ or to his many fans instead.

  9. Okay, weighing in here on what I think should happen.

    Key word there is should. You are absolutely right, that is what should happen, but knowing Driscoll’s track record–eh, doubt it.

    Hoping I’m wrong.

  10. I remember when Ray Comfort was challenged over his involvement at an event similar to this one recently (being similar I mean that they were also peaching heresy).

    Ray maintained that he was going there to preach the Gospel to those that do not usually hear it. However and I think rightly so, many people spoke out that if he did not go there and warn those attending, that they were under the teaching of “wolves”, then he was not doing what was biblical and was merely compromising.

    I sincerely hope that if Driscoll thinks that by going there and preaching a “Gospel message” without clearly warning the congregation of the bad teaching, he is not allowed to say or think he has done what is required of him, and let off the hook.

  11. Joni Earickson Tada at the Crystal Cathedral?? This is the only part of the above-post that surprises (and grieves) me. She has spoken out and countered the Word-Faith camp’s contentions before, both publicly and in her writing. She is far too sound theologically to endorse Schuller. Hopefully, as someone mentioned above, this is a case of wanting to spread the true Gospel in spite of the venue, rather than because of it.

    She has spoken openly about how much hurt and harm the “healing is guaranteed by the atonement” doctrine has done, and unless I’m mistaken, isn’t she a member of John Macarthur’s church? At any rate, Tada seems to be one of the few female voices left who is truly sound. I’m sure she’s not abandoning her principles, but wants to reach the deceived. That’s what I hope, anyway.

  12. Marie,

    Here is the link to the message pep talk she preached at Crystal Cathedral. This is actually the transcript page. Sadly, she left so much out and put in much that is not found in Scripture. I will leave the reader to discern the truth of her experience on the stage of Feel-good-about-yourself Schuller!

    The Desert Pastor

  13. Yep. After posting the above comment, I watched the video of her message on “Hour of Power”‘s website. I also researched what Schuller’s version of the Gospel is. I am disappointed, to put it mildly!

    Tada used the term “Gospel” several times, but in her mind, “Gospel” means something very different than what it means in Schuller’s. She should have used the opportunity to talk about salvation and the meaning of the Cross. What she said about suffering was fine – there was nothing wrong with her anecdotes as such – but that is what they were; anecdotes. Insights into “God’s purpose for you for that day” are all well and good (and she mentioned “lordship of Christ” in passing), but there was zip about repentance or meaning of the Cross.

    Given that she was on a platform in one of the largest false-gospel preaching venues in the nation, I am very disappointed that she did not stand for the Truth. ):

  14. Daniel says:

    #1- I came to know Jesus throuh Pastor Mark’s sermon(s) and have actually picked up my bible since not reading it for a decade or more. Galatians was a nice start since coming out of a cult.

    #2- Now since some time has gone, Pastor Mark is not afraid of preaching the gospel as it is. He even spoke how Paul refused to take money to become a false prophet (preacher) for the elite (current series of Trial- http://www.marshillchurch.org/media/trial ).

    #3- Now for June 14th… Pastor Mark has a great opportunity to preach THE gospel in what could be considered, from a worldly popular stand. He won’t back down from telling it how it is and afterwards, we will see if he gets invited back to The Crystal Cathedral. I doubt he will, but if he does, it will be a miracle.

    Mark Driscoll is not popular on main-stream broadcasts like radio (although locally) and/ or TV (except news). He is being followed however by a mass who is searching, being led by The Holy Spirit, on the internet- a wealth of information. This is a great time to be living in because we are seeing things going forth as promised.

    Revelation is a warning told in several ways of 1 event of most importance. to understand it, read Daniel, Isaiah and Ezekiel. Those blessed with knowledge (Godly, that is) will have their eyes opened and warn others as well. It would be helpful to have an ESV translation on hand.

  15. Daniel~ May I ask you this;I am curious about this claim from you, ‘I came to know Jesus throuh Pastor Mark’s sermon(s)’. Does this mean Mark receives credit for your salvation? Also, what do you mean by ‘I came to know Jesus’?

  16. If MD “preaches the Gospel” but fails to scale the language barrier (i.e. fails to define the terms he uses) he will leave those at the glass cathedral nodding in agreement but not one step closer to the true Jesus of the Bible than when they first entered the place.

    What do I mean? Well, for instance, if MD says “you have all sinned,” those under Schuller’s influence translate that as “you have all made errors and have not reached your full potential to be the best you can be.” Even if MD means one thing, his hearers will interpret it entirely different based on their years of sitting at the feet of Schuller.

    If MD intends to preach the Gospel but does not define his terms (using the Biblical definitions not his own) he will have accomplished nothing (much like Ray Comfort at the Word of Faith gathering and Ravi Zacharias at the Mormon Tabernacle).

    And this is all without even getting into MD’s other issues that harms his Gospel presentation.

    I am withholding any judgment on this matter till after June 14th. After all, I know not what MD will teach on, (unless he plans on teaching from Song of Solomon, then all hope is lost). But if you’re expecting him not to be invited back because of his strong Gospel message, allow me to direct your attention to his 2004 appearance in Schuller’s glass den of iniquity. It’s been five years but, heeee’s back!

    – The Pilgrim

  17. Daniel says:

    No, Mark was delivering a message that I needed to hear. He was mearly a vessel to bring to me, God’s saving word.

    I was in and out of so many denominations, had no parents to speak of for formal upbringing and was looking (searching) for the love that “christians” were speaking about. I was also involved in a cult that practiced biblical old testament law, but that brought me more awareness that i was lost without Jesus.

    The hypocrisy in churches today has upset me and I can feel it in my spirit. No doubt, my father in heaven is even more angered towards it. Judgement has started in the church and the dividing will be made more clear as time progresses.

    I am being brought up by Yahweh’s word and hand.

    Also, if Pastor Mark did not see a need to start the Acts 29 network, he wouldn’t have.

    @Pilgrim
    So who would be held accountable for the flock at TCC? Wouldn’t the home pastor be? YES!

    Just because Driscoll preaches the truth and the flock hears it differently, it would be because of how the main pastor taught them how to think. Driscoll would not be held accountable, but only to preach what needs to be spoken.

    As far as 2004, he was young… He’s had much practice since then. : )

  18. Daniel:

    “I was also involved in a cult that practiced biblical old testament law” Just for the sake of curiosity, (and if it’s not too personal) would you mind revealing what group you were involved in?

    “The hypocrisy in churches today has upset me and I can feel it in my spirit.” We too feel the hypocrisy (and lack of holiness, lack of sanctification, lack of severing adulterous ties with the world and its culture, etc.) in the visible churches as well. Hence, this is part of why DefCon exists (even if we’re dealing with someone that we really, really like). However, we see it–not so much as a feeling in our spirit–as much as we see it not reflecting back what we see when held against the mirror of Holy Scripture.

    “Judgement [sic] has started in the church and the dividing will be made more clear as time progresses.” I (and I think we) completely agree with you again. There is definitely going to be some dividing going on! However, I’m not sure if your definition of “judgment” and “dividing” is similar to ours (this was the same point I made about defining terms in my previous post). For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? (1 Peter 4:17). If you want to know more about the “dividing” part, please visit my short missive entitled Doctrine Divides. And if you want to know whatever happened to Christian unity, I strongly, strongly urge you to download the sermon found on this link.

    “Just because Driscoll preaches the truth and the flock hears it differently, it would be because of how the main pastor taught them how to think. Driscoll would not be held accountable, but only to preach what needs to be spoken.” So would this apply to Ravi Zacharias as well? It is the LDS leadership that’s responsible for the Mormons’ understanding and if Ravi speaks of (a) Jesus that is completely foreign to what they understand Jesus to be, Ravi is not responsible? Isn’t the whole purpose of Ravi accepting the invitation to speak to Mormons (and MD accepting the invitation to speak to those at TCC) to actually present the true Gospel of Jesus Christ to those who otherwise do not hear it and are destined for an eternity in Hell? If MD held to your philosophy that “it’s the home preacher’s job, not the visiting preacher’s job” will MD not have much to answer for when he stands before God? Isn’t it equivalent to asking God, “Am I my brother’s keeper?”

    Sincerely,
    – The Pilgrim

  19. Daniel~
    You still have not stated what Mark Driscoll preached. What was his sermon about? What passages did he expound upon?
    Also, would you please clarify your statement, ‘I came to know Jesus’…what exactly does that mean? I don’t believe I have found such a statement, or a command worded like that, anywhere in scripture. What did you find out about yourself?

  20. “If MD ‘preaches the Gospel’ but fails to scale the language barrier (i.e. fails to define the terms he uses) he will leave those at the glass cathedral nodding in agreement but not one step closer to the true Jesus of the Bible than when they first entered the place.”

    That’s it exactly. That is where Joni E. Tada erred. Certainly she herself does not subscribe to the false gospel of Schuller, but she has to know about his heretical views and her message was entirely too vague. It’s like a cop-out when these visitors are given a golden opportunity to refute false teaching.

    It may be that they are too intimidated – being on the podium before thousands of people with Schuller there as well. How would they feel when faced with the option of refuting the home pastor’s doctrine? From a human perspective, I can empathize. However, as Pilgrim said, these souls are deceived, need to hear the Gospel, and without it are headed to hell.

    If anyone has the ability to go against the grain and refuse to kowtow to false doctrine, it’s Driscoll. His boldness in speaking out can be used for good or bad. Unfortunately, he’s been using it in an entirely inappropriate, flesh-gratifying way and is inconsistent. The man is capable of delivering a sound, no-holds-barred, in-your-face exposition of the Gospel (I have heard him). The question is, will he? He’s known for having a no-compromise stance regarding watered-down soteriology. Will he express it, when the rubber meets the road next month? Personally, I confess that I’m skeptical based on the fruit we’ve been seeing.

    Daniel, I’m glad the Lord led you to the Truth. Praise Him!

  21. jude newman says:

    Hopefully MD will give a no holds barred , good all fashion gospel message. Along the lines of Paul Washer would be good. I pray he will anyway. We will all have to wait and see.

    Just reading above comments. Aren’t we all accountable for ourselves as far as who’s teaching we sit under. I know the leaders are accountable, but there must be a time when we can stop blaming others and realise if we are too lazy to read our bibles, study and pray and use discernment, of course we won’t be able to discern the true from the false. I know in my life the Lord opened my eyes, through the internet, and Paul Washers sermon, first of all, then others, to lead me out of a church that was supposedly Baptist, but playing around with some really strange stuff. I know for new Christians it is hard when they don’t know much of their bible. We don’t stay babies, ( or are not supposed to anyway.) needing milk instead of meat. There is such a need to get back to bible reading and prayer. If we truly belong to God He will open our eyes. Then we must be prepared to question and leave, if need be. It is hard, but necessary. God is the one we need to please.

  22. Here is a question we all need to consider. This being, why did Schuller invite Driscoll to speak at the Crystal Cathedral? For what reason did he extend this offer? Is it because Schuller is a defender of the faith and desires his people to hear the gospel? I think the readers of this site know the answer to that one! Or, might it be that he is having a twinge of conscience and desires that he and his flock be rebuked for their self-love, pseudo gospel and rather be shown the way unto the cross and eternal life?

    I also ask the same question for the others he has invited to speak at his “church”, or of similar situations where persons considered sound in the faith have spoken on TBN (The Blasphemy Network), or at other such dens of iniquity like the Mormon Tabernacle.

    The reason, at least as I see it, is for the heretic to gain credibility, acceptability and a wider audience. In the case of Schuller, it is obvious that he believes with all his heart that anyone he invites to speak is NOT going to rebuke him or call him a heretic (which is exactly what needs to be said). Hence, regardless of what the person from the pulpit speaks, he has won because now he has grained the hearts of a few more people he did not have before. And he as the heretic becomes more acceptable in the eyes of others because if Mark Driscoll speaks in his pulpit, or Joni E. Tada does, or (fill in the blanks) does, then maybe what we thought about Schuller is wrong. Maybe he is not such a bad guy after all.

    Likewise, as was astutely pointed about above in a prior posting, the people are going to filter the words spoken through the lens of doctrine they have been raised under. Because if they are not shown that what they believe is patently false where their esteemed teacher is a heretic, then nothing will change for them. This being no different than what happens if you speak to say a Roman Catholic about Jesus. Here, they will nod their head and say amen as you share truths about Jesus directly from the Scripture. But once you wade into the waters of going directly against their false doctrines, watch how quickly your friendly conversation turns into a doctrinal firefight.

    So all Driscoll will accomplish in speaking at this venue is the aiding and abetting of a further watering down of the differences between the true and the false, the saved and the heretic, the sheep and the wolf. Is this not why John wrote, “If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him Godspeed.” (II Jn 1:10). What could be clearer than this?
    Possibly John’s next line that states, “For he that biddeth him Godspeed is partaker of his evil deeds.” (II Jn 1:11)

    And this is in fact what these who speak at these places are doing; they are bidding “Godspeed” to heretics and hence are becoming partaker of their evil deeds. The Scriptures are so clear yet this simple truth is missed as we think our way is better because we are so desperate to get the gospel out regardless of venue.

    Crystal Cathedral today, Vatican Square tomorrow.

  23. aj says:

    I for one will be praying that Driscoll is able to explain the gospel clearly and that many will hear the truth.

    Daniel – I’m glad that you came to faith through Driscoll’s message. Its pretty obvious from what you have written that you don’t credit Driscoll, but you give the credit to Jesus but are thankful that he uses imperfect people.

    Lyn – have a decaf, lighten up and rejoice that we have treasure in ‘jars of clay’. Someone came to faith – yay. Thats a good thing.

    Instead of knocking the guy, for goodness sake and the sake of the gospel – pray for him.

    Some of you should be ashamed……

  24. ‘AJ’~ I hardly think condoning profanity, from the pulpit no less, is something we should just yawn over. The complacent, lackluster, chill out attitude certainly is NOT the attitude believers are called to have. No one is ‘knocking the guy’, we are exposing his erroneous behavior. Can you point me to scripture where the Apostle Paul, or any of the apostles for that matter, used profanity or sexual innuendos when they preached? We are called to follow the example of the apostles, and Christ {Phil. 3:17, 2 Th. 3:9}
    Do you understand we have a high calling? We aren’t called to talk like the world, dress like it, or act like it. We have been sanctified, set apart, by and for Christ. We are to be heavenly minded, not earthly. We are to strive for holiness, ‘ Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. ‘- 2Cr 7:1 ‘For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. ‘-1Th 4:7 ‘Pursue peace with all [people], and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord’ -Hbr 12:14

    Do you honestly believe God is pleased when a man who professes to be called to preach His word peppers his message with profanity?
    Rather than defend Mark D., pray for him. Men who preach come under stricter judgment than others. Pray God brings him to repentance over his profanity from the pulpit, if you really care about this man, you would fall on your face before God and intercede on his behalf.

  25. Craig says:

    Pastors are preachers and teachers. Pastors are the heralds of God’s word. A herald does not consider how the listener will react to the word of God. A pastor (herald) simply brings forth and proclaims the word of God to the best of his ability.

    If a herald changes the message for an specific audience, he is preaching for the approval of men and not for God. There is no wiggle room in this requirement. Consider the words of the Apostle Paul to Timothy.

    2Ti 4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.

    Driscolll will either preach the full council of God’s word or face judgment for his failure.

  26. Craig said:

    ” A herald does not consider how the listener will react to the word of God. A pastor (herald) simply brings forth and proclaims the word of God to the best of his ability.

    “If a herald changes the message for an specific audience, he is preaching for the approval of men and not for God. There is no wiggle room in this requirement. Consider the words of the Apostle Paul to Timothy. ”

    AMEN and AMEN! Herald THAT from the pulpits of the cultural felt-needs social clubs.

  27. aj says:

    Lyn
    I do pray for him – often.
    I also note that Piper has taken him to task.
    I note also that he has responded to criticism by taking things off web-sites that should have been there in the first place.

    Perhaps where you come from, you’ve got plenty of good preachers, but where I come from, the gospel isn’t preached at all and I wish we had men like Driscoll who would fearlessly proclaim Jesus.

    I don’t think that you American’s like his humour – its far too Irish – I think a lot of what he says goes over your heads, as he uses irony and dry humour so much.

    I’ll eat my hat if he doesn’t yell the gospel in the Crystal Cathedral.

  28. AJ~ I know nothing of Mark’s humor, what I do know of is his perverse speaking from the pulpit. That is troublesome. Why does he deem it necessary to drag smut into the pulpit? Why not just preach the word, which is all any man of God is called to do?
    I really see little humor in a world that is extremely vile and wicked; a world that is growing darker by the minute as thousands of people die each and every day without Christ. I see little humor in a world that increasingly condones and demands tolerance of sexual perversion, as well as slaughtering millions of innocent unborn babies. I see nothing funny about a world where man sets up for himself a ‘god’ suitable to the majority, a god that makes you comfortable in your sins. I find no humor in messages delivered that do NOT prick the heart, but instead, bring to the forefront some sort of high school mentality concerning sex and the ‘professing Christian’. Are we not commanded in scripture NOT to add to or take away from the word of God? So when Mark throws sexual innuendos in his message, how does that cut a sinner to the heart? It only invokes sheepish grins and elbow jabbing by immature professing believers in the pews.
    The preaching of the word is serious business; the damnation of lost souls is serious business. Should we take lightly any of it? I think not.
    If you lack good preaching in your area, I know my brothers here could recommend some solid, biblical teaching for you. May I suggest John MacArthur, R.C. Sproul, Paul Washer, Conrad Mbewe, Voddie Baucham, or Jeff Noblit? You can google any of these gentlemen and find their websites. I also recommend http://www.sermonaudio.com or http://www.sermonindex.com for sermon downloads.
    You will find sound preaching right here as well – http://defendingcontending.com/category/sermons/

    May the Lord richly bless you and guide you AJ!

  29. mbaker says:

    aj said:

    “Lyn – have a decaf, lighten up and rejoice that we have treasure in ‘jars of clay’. Someone came to faith – yay. Thats a good thing.

    Instead of knocking the guy, for goodness sake and the sake of the gospel – pray for him.

    Some of you should be ashamed……”

    Er, are we saying a completely sovereign God cannot withstand the questions of man, or we saying that man cannot withstand the sovereign questions of God?

    Seems to me that is the real question you are asking.

  30. I look forward to hearing what Driscoll will preach this weekend.

    Either it will solidify the claims he is quite dangerous or he may preach a message that rocks them. I wont comment yet……

  31. I also look forward to the response after he has preached at this “show”.

    I would like to remind all his fans that unless he preaches a message that exposes the heresy of Schuller and his crew that teach there every week, then he has not preached the truth.

    – dale

  32. aj says:

    Lyn you said…
    “I see nothing funny about a world where man sets up for himself a ‘god’ suitable to the majority, a god that makes you comfortable in your sins”

    With the greatest respect and christian love – this seriously does not reflect Driscoll’s preaching.

    I’m not defending everything he says, and to be honest, I’m a little tired (I’m using irony here) of some of his jokes, but I don’t think anyone can accuse him of letting people be ‘comfortable in your sins’ or setting himself up as a ‘god’.

    Honestly, on the fundamentals of the faith, he’s pretty clear and unequivocal.

    Lets see what happens tomorrow…. Hopefully I won’t have to eat my hat – its straw and probably won’t taste very nice.

  33. Can someone upload/link to the message afterwards (as done with the Joni E. Tada one), so we all can watch it? Many thanks…

  34. AJ~ my comment ‘I see nothing funny about a world where man sets up for himself a ‘god’ suitable to the majority, a god that makes you comfortable in your sins” was NOT directed at Driscoll, it was a generalized comment.

  35. mbaker says:

    Once again: weighing in here . Are we to decide on our admiration for Mark ,(or not), or upon an objective look at how he is really handling the gospel message? Seems to me that’s what’s at issue here: Do we decide the outcome based upon the opinions of our favorite spiritual gurus, be it MacArthur, Piper or Driscoll, or upon the basis of what the Lord Himself says? I think that’s the defining issue for all us to consider,

    I’m all for what the Lord says. Preach it as He sees it, or get the heck out of the kitchen! No one can save us but Him, so why are we worried about what our personal favorites think?

    Isn’t His opinion more important, one way or another?

  36. Ben Mordecai says:

    It is really irritating to see everyone starting to stone Driscoll before he even preaches. Don’t you think Driscoll is crafty enough to preach the gospel there? Do you really think that he is ignorant of what CC is all about?

    The Jews were heretics: they denied Jesus, yet it was Paul’s CUSTOM (Acts 17:2) to preach in synagogues (and get stoned on the way out).

    Doesn’t everyone remember MacArthur on TBN? John MacArthur on TBN. That is like a cold day in Hell. Yet what did Johnny Mac do? He slammed the prosperity gospel preached the true gospel, preached repentance, the cross, and the forgiveness of sins. Yet no one blogged against him for darkening the studio doors of TBN.

    Driscoll uses personal relationships to the advantage of the gospel. How do you think he got to be involved in ABC’s Satan debate? Yet notice Mark didn’t focus on slamming his competition on in the debate, because he wan’t interested in winning an argument, he was interested in using his national broadcast platform to preach the gospel dozens of times, and overall make Christians look smart AND compassionate.

    Driscoll is crafty. Ok so he USED to cuss. Ok so he takes a literal interpretation of Song of Solomon. Move on. Let the man preach the gospel for Christ’s sake.

  37. Ben. I have to agree with the vast majority of your post.
    The real issue with Mark Driscoll, the crux of it all, is that he is a contextualiser (the worng type of contextauliser).

    In a nut shell, he will lower his ‘morality’ to meet the carnal at their carnality.

    That is his biggest flaw. Seek that issue out.

  38. aj says:

    How does he ‘lower his morality to meet the carnal at their carnality’ ?
    I’m not sure what you mean by this, please could you explain.

    By the way – anybody heard how he did yet?

    Do I have to eat my hat yet?

  39. aj,

    What I mean is that due to Mark Driscoll (openly and happily from what I see, hear and percieve) being a contextualiser is that he meets the carnality of the people on their level. And has no qualms in doing so. This is not right. We are not to lower our standardsof speech and conduct simply to meet their wants and needs.
    A very prominent pastor from the US spoke at my church recently and he put it perfectly. He said that what these guys (like Driscoll) are doing are letting them (the unchurched youth) tell us how we are to reach them. This is like a 15 year boy telling his mum/dad how to parent them.

    I hope to touch on this issue deeper at my blog which you can reach by clicking on my name above.
    I do not believe Driscoll is a false teacher. I will go on record saying that.
    I do believe he needs to repent of his incorrect contextualising.

  40. Matthew,

    I agree with your assessment. If we lower our standards of speech and conduct to meet the world (or shallow believers) wants and needs, what is it that we really have to offer them? Men like Mark Driscoll may have a correct basis of theology, but it is a head knowledge only when they fail to meet the standards established by the Word of God. What makes it even worse is when very prominent ministers across the country openly endorse such trivialization of the message of the Lord Jesus Christ!

    The Desert Pastor

  41. Ben Mordecai says:

    I read that he will let us know on twitter when it is available. It has not yet aired on TV

  42. mbaker says:

    So what did happen with Mark? The date has come and gone, I haven’t heard an update yet, unless I’ve missed a post some where else, which is entirely possible.

    If so, can you post a link here ?

    Thanks, and God bless.

  43. Dear mbaker:

    Both The Desert Pastor and Fourpointer are actively trying to locate this information (the sermon itself) as we speak. Apparently it’s not as readily available as we thought it would be.

    Stay tuned . . .

    – The Pilgrim

  44. Both The Desert Pastor and Fourpointer are actively trying to locate this information (the sermon itself) as we speak.

    So far, coming up zilch. Getting closer, however. Found this on Driscoll’s Facebook page, dated July 1 (emphasis mine):

    On Sunday, June 14, I preached two sermons at the Crystal Cathedral in Southern California. The trip went well. I paid my own travel expenses and preached without an honorarium as a way to ensure I was just serving Jesus. Everyone was super kind and allowed me to preach Jesus without edits. The sermons will be broadcast to 12 million people nationwide on the “Hour of Power” TV show, so please pray that people meet Jesus. They don’t have a firm date yet for when the show will be broadcast, but we’ll let you know on the Resurgence and on my Facebook and Twitter, so keep checking back. My first sermon was on Jesus’ claims to be God, and the second was a brutal tour of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ in our place for our sins.

  45. Stephanie says:

    I find this thread of commentary from professed believers who have apparently never spent any length of time under the preaching of Mark Driscoll and yet pass scathing criticism. The first time I attended a service at Mars Hill Ballard over four years ago I wondered if I would be the only one over 30 ( I am now 60) in attendance! By God’s grace I have seen not only the attendance at the many campuses swell but we now reflect the broader population as to age and stage of life. As both Mark and the congregation have matured he has tempered his delivery considerably.

    While I would take issue with most of the previous comments I will comment on only a few. Lyn has referred to Driscoll as “complacent”, “lackluster” with a “chill out attitude” among other things. He could not be farther from the truth. Mark Driscoll is in fact the opposite. He is passionate about Jesus, sound doctrine, and genuine rather than superficial righteous living not complacent, inspiring rather than lackluster, and more hyper than chilled in attitude.

    I am not sure to what Lyn was refering when he spoke of exposing (Driscoll’s) erroneous behavior. This is a man who genuinely strives to be transparent from the pulpit, who has publicly confessed sins of his youth and present, who freely admits that there are times he crosses over the line of propriety, who does not claim to have arrived at the perfection of the Savior, who cares deeply for people-that they find Jesus and avoid the consequences of sin. He consistently holds contrasts false doctrines with the Word although he avoids name calling from the pulpit and does give the benefit of the doubt to those who may disagree with him or hold to a different Scriptural interpretation. While my many years of association with discernment ministries might make me wish he would name names I realize that it is comparable to the old story about bank tellers being taught how to feel real money rather than how to spot the counterfeit. If the shepherd does a good enough job of training the flock to milk the Word for truth they will be less likely to follow the false.

    I am likewise not sure how Lyn would enforce his call that believers are not to “talk-dress-or act like the world”. Does that mean that jeans are out because the everybody and his dog wears them? If everybody else is shopping Macy’s or Abercrombies or Wal-Mart for that matter is it a sin to shop there, too, and wear the same labels? Is it more Christ-like to wear a suit? Would that be two button or three? Or would the robes or priests and monks be more holy in his economy? And what about us women? I would certainly agree that too much cleavage (God given or otherwise) is, well ,too much but would he prefer the garb of many Muslims? And less you think Driscoll is accepting or oblivious to some vulgar trends in dress I assure you has taken it all on in exhorting young women in particular to dress with modesty and propriety.

    I will comment just in part on the topic of Driscoll’s choice of words and subject matter from the pulpit. I will be the first to admit that as a conservative 60 year old widow I have blushed at his phraseology at times, but at the end of the day I have had to conclude that what he said was absolute fact and said in a way that a generation raised on South Park and Simpsons can understand and they not me are the ones who need that message. Furthermore in defense of the frankness and yes sometimes crudeness of his word choice I challenge any reader to honestly examine scripture-old and new- and pay attention to the sexuality and crude references inspired by God himself. How is it different and worse for Driscoll to use the P word (penis) from the pulpit but scripture refers to “cutting off a man’s male member”? And what about the comparison in the Bible of our self righteousness to filthy menstruating rags? That is no less a disgusting and indelicate a use of imagery than some of Mark’s original quips and comparisons. Enough said: there is plenty to make us blush and avoid in mixed company in the Holy Bible so nothing new from the Mars Hill pulpit.

    Lastly, Lyn makes his pitch for solemnity rather than humor from the pulpit in this sinful and increasingly darkened world. I truly understand his bend as I am inclined to the prophet of doom role myself, but let me remind all listeners that our God has told us that a merry heart does us good and many other times God uses subtle irony and even humor in the scriptures. To suggest that Driscoll is only out for the cheap and crude laugh from an immature audience is an outright lie! He is human and yes sometimes he can cross over the line, but to suggest that because he does he is careless about the cares of this world is unfair. He is a compassionate, pro-family, pro-life, pro-child, dedicated husband and lover of womankind. He never makes the listener comfortable in their sins and uses his bully pulpit to exhort and admonish all who sin and fall short of God’s glory to turn to Jesus as the one and only way.

  46. Stephanie,

    Two of the issues for which you defend Driscoll are his dress and vernacular. You stated,

    And less you think Driscoll is accepting or oblivious to some vulgar trends in dress I assure you has taken it all on in exhorting young women in particular to dress with modesty and propriety.

    I have watched many dozens of sermons from Driscoll’s home church in which he preaches, from the platform, in faded (often even torn) dungarees; a T-shirt and occasionally a flannel shirt (unbuttoned and untucked, of course) over the T-shirt. Often the T-shirt carries a disrespectful depiction of Christ (such as his infamous Che Guevarra one), but that is a different subject for another time.

    He is often unshaven as well. The point is, whatever you want to call it, his appearance is sloppy, disheveled, and unbecoming for a minister of God preaching in the assembly. We can split hairs here all you want about cultural relevance and throw out the red herring regarding whether a suit should have two buttons or three, but that is not the issue here and we all know it. There is a difference between casual and sloppy. A deliberate slovenly appearance is typical of 9th and 10th grade boys; it is inappropriate for full-grown men (or women) who claim to represent Christ. That’s not theological parsing; it’s common sense. It’s disrespectful both of the holiness of God’s house and of the other people in attendance, whether it’s in Drsicoll’s church or mine.

    Lyn is a woman, by the way.

    The question over his filthy talk for it’s “shock value” has been dissected and discussed ad nauseum all over the internet. Bottom line: unnecessarily crass, vulgar and graphic parlance to describe bodily functions and sexual relations is wildly inappropriate in the pulpit, which his SoS series and many other of his sermons have been. The straw that broke the camel’s back for me personally was when he made Jesus Christ the butt of one of his homoerotic “jokes”. There are many, MANY examples I could give you off the top of my head, but this subject has been so hashed and re-hashed that I doubt it’s even necessary.

    Driscoll consistently displays a lack of reverence and holy respect for God, which admittedly is inconsistent with his Reformed theology. His track record at building a church and hermeneutically-correct handling of Scripture does not justify his profane and vulgar speech, which is condemned by Scripture (both OT and NT). No pastor is above reproach when he violates the holiness he is called to uphold.

    _____________________________________________________________________

    Stephanie,

    If you haven’t seen these (very specific and detailed) reports about what is so objectionable in Driscoll’s “preaching”, I really urge you to read and prayerfully consider the content addressed in each. Again, no one is hanging Driscoll out to dry calling him a heretic or denying that he is a powerful speaker, but that doesn’t mean a blind eye should be turned to such blatant and unrepentant carnality:

    http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/driscoll_michels.pdf

    http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/announcement/rise-up-o-men-of-god-your-women-are-fighting-the-battle

  47. Stephanie~

    Let me start by informing you that I am a woman!

    Next, you accuse us of criticizing. Yet, the Word of God commands we defend truth and expose error. I will use His word to defend my statement, “Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.” Ephesians 5:11. Using profanity and preaching on sex from the pulpit are unacceptable. We gather to worship God, not as an hour for Christian counseling! If there are questions concerning sexual ‘dos and don’ts’, take it up privately.
    Are profanity and sexual innuendos acceptable in the pulpit? Again, let us turn to the only source of truth and guidance the born again believer needs, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.”
    The phrase ‘corrupt communication’ means ‘of poor quality, bad, unfit for use, worthless’ [ from http://www.blueletterbible.org.
    How does Driscoll’s speaking of oral sex from the pulpit minister grace? How is God glorified? Also, worship is for the family, would you bring a young child to church to hear a sermon on oral sex? It is very telling when parents aren’t able to bring their children to church because of the content of the message.
    We also have this command from Colossians 3:8, “But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth.” The phrase ‘filthy language’ means ‘ foul speaking, low and obscene speech’. So, a ‘man of God’ must NOT preach using obscene language, or unfit, worthless speech.

    The word of God is sacred, holy and should be honored. How is God glorified in this question for Driscoll, “Pastor Mark, is masturbation a valid form of birth control?”
    Driscoll doesn’t miss a beat: “I had one guy quote Ecclesiastes 9:10, which says, ‘Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might.’ ” The audience bursts out laughing.

    Do you think the Lord is pleased with such a childish profane approach to and misuse of Holy Writ? Again, such a question should have been addressed in a private manner, not flashed on a screen in front of an entire church. These are personal issues; let me repeat – – -worship service is to worship God, NOT be a Christian counseling service!!

    Do you know what most professing American Christians lack? HOLY FEAR, HOLY REVERENCE. They lack a clear biblical understanding on the attributes of a Holy and Righteous God as revealed in Scripture. They lack an understanding on what it means to ‘come out and be separate’. They lack understanding of the holiness of His word {Psalm 119 is an excellent read and should be read by all who profess Christ}.
    Instead of defending unbiblical practices, pray for this man. He is trying desperately to be like the world…he dresses like the world, he talks ‘cool’ and ‘hip’ to attract the world. These are in direct violation of what the word of God teaches, ‘Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.’ James 4:4
    This passage makes it clear, those who buddy up to this world, imitating it in dress and speech, are called an adulterer/adulteress! They have gone ‘a whoring’ in God’s eyes. This is serious.

    Let me ask you this, would you drink a glass of water with one drop of cyanide in it? Why do you think it’s okay to mix a little ‘poison’ with God’s Holy Word? {i.e. profanity and sex}.

    From Psalm 119:140, ‘Your word is very pure; Therefore Your servant loves it.’ Pure means tested and proven true. God’s word is true all on it’s own, we need not add vulgarity to it, or cheapen it by dragging irrelevant issues into an hour that is supposed to be for His glory, not man’s.

    I am not a ‘prophet of doom’…I am a sinner saved solely by His grace who understands, by His teaching, that lost souls are in desperate need of hearing the True Gospel. If you read your Bible and cry out for His wisdom, you will see that time is NOT on our side. It will not get any better in the days to come, in fact, it will get much much worse. This should not be considered ‘gloomy’. This is a warning, judgment is coming and lost sinners must be warned. To sit back and be entertained by a man who likes to dress like my teenage nephew and talk like him is not acceptable, especially a man who names the name of Christ.
    If you mix man’s wisdom with God’s you have made what you say null and void, here is scriptural proof, ‘For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.’ 1 Cor. 1:17

    This is NOT an attack on Driscoll personally, this is an exposing of error in his presentation of the Gospel. May God convict him and bring him to repentance…if he truly belongs to the Lord Jesus Christ, he WILL be dealt with by the Almighty.

  48. jude newman says:

    lyn, I agree with the lack of holiness today. Jesus is not a dude. He is King of kings and Lord of Lords. He is Messiah. The holy and anointed One. He will one day rule over the earth. This lack of honour and godly fear of a holy God leads to a lack of reverence which flows down to all parts of our life. Hence the rubbish coming out of pulpits today. To try to bring our glorious Lord and Savior down to our level, what??? to make Him more approachable, more down to earth, more of a buddy. Don’t become like Him, make Him like us, this is what has been done. It’s disgusting, and we are seeing the rotten fruit from it in churches.

  49. Amen Jude; and Marie, Matthew J., Fourpointer, Pilgrim, Jay W., Dale, Desert Pastor, Manfred, and all who contend for the faith without compromise or wavering. May the Lord continue to bless His people with strength, perseverance, and truth, as well as humility, love, and compassion for lost sinners.

  50. It has surprised me to see people jump all over this and not let the man speak for himself. He has said that he is preaching Christ and Him crucified. Unless you think he lied about not getting an honorarium or paying his own way, we should do well to see what his sermon will be like. If any of us were invited to speak at the temple in Salt Lake City, I’m sure many of us would take the opportunity to preach Christ and Him Crucified. And as for many of the ministries mentioned (CRN et al.) for all the good work they do, they seem to live in a time warp where Driscoll will always be emergent and never even tried to change his ways. More so, it has become apparent (especially they way they have treated Donald Whitney) that they are more out for sensational headlines than the truth.

  51. Martin says:

    Frank: There is “Christianity” man’s way, and Christianity God’s way. Why do you suppose Jesus did not allow the demons to give Him glory, but told them to be quiet? They were calling Him the Holy One of God, etc. were they not? Why do you suppose not one of the early church evangelists went into pagan temples to “preach Jesus”? We preach Jesus and Him crucified in the open public places, but not in churches where it could be mistaken that we give tacit approval to false teachers. It sends a message that there is fellowship of light with darkness.

  52. Amen Martin & Dale,

    For the Lord tells us – “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits.” and “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?”

    High profile Christians must be very careful who they appear with in public, for such joint appearance will lend credence to the false teacher. Hence, no Christian should share the stage with Schuller or Osteen or myriad others who deceive the lost.

  53. David says:

    Saw Driscoll’s video. This is truly tragic. For all the talk about Jesus, there is no mention of repentance or obedience to His word. No mention of “if any man come after Me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow Me”. No mention of being judged by God’s word in the last day (Jn.12:48). No mention of how Jesus’ sacrifice is applied to the individual. No mention of the eternity that awaits those who do not have Jesus as Lord. Typical wishy washy anemic “gospel” that gives false assurances, and allows those poor souls to believe Jesus has automatically forgiven them all for their sins, and He awaits them on the other side when they die. Quite a positive message. No wonder he was invited to speak there.

  54. Martin says:

    Frank!:
    You asked if I thought Driscoll is a false prophet. If you refer to a prophet as one who has the gift of prophesy, then since I haven’t heard him claim to have that gift, I can’t accuse him of being a false prophet. I will say I believe he is a false teacher, based upon some of his teachings which are contrary to the Scriptures.

  55. The “cussing” pastor Mark Driscoll gives yet another “crystal” clear reason he is increasingly a blight and open sore on the name of Christ and His church.

    Driscoll’s “corrupt communication” (Eph. 4:29) brought a needed open rebuke by John MacArthur earlier this year. But now, Driscoll takes another step in the direction of anti-biblical ministry. He clothed himself in a facade of fashionable respectability to speak at the anti-God, anti-Bible Crystal Cathedral.

    IMO, Driscoll just identified himself as the newest star for the open compromise of New Evangelicalism.

    I’d like for any balanced Bible-believing Christian to reconsider whether or not he can endorse, legitimize or support in the slightest respect any aspect of this rebellious man’s ministry.

    LM

    PS: Desert Pastor, your comment (#4 in this thread), although “tongue in cheek” was spot on. I appreciated it.

  56. Martin–
    Do tell what have you seen in him that makes him a false prophet.?
    (PS: are my comments taking a while to get up or are they being deleted? If it’s the latter, feel free to take this conversation up at my blog-click on my name)

  57. David says:

    Frank!

    Martin never said that Mark Driscoll was a false prophet. He said he believes Driscoll to be a false “teacher”.

  58. One other thing, where did Jesus and Paul preach? in the temple and the areopagus, what a better place to preach than a place full of lost people. Isnt that what we are suppose to do?

  59. Travis,

    You are correct. However, you readily seem to have forgotten that NEITHER Jesus nor Paul called the religious leader “brother”, did not recognize the Pharisees as Christians, and certainly DID NOT tell the listeners that “Jesus was waiting to welcome them into heaven with open arms.” Unlike Driscoll’s recent debacle, BOTH Jesus and Paul preached repentance and turning from sin. They taught the way is narrow. They taught that repentance and salvation brings a change from the world!

    So, now I ask what is your point?

    The Desert Pastor

    PS – I understand that both Paul and Jesus never had large followings. Maybe they should have used modern vernacular curse words and spoken crudely of the relationship between men and women. Too bad they just didn’t understand what it means to be “culturally relevant!”

  60. Since I did not see the video I cant really comment on it, but if he did call Dr. Schuller a brother I would have issues with that as well,

    From what I recall Jesus had large followings, and was culturally relevant, he was where the people were, he made jokes to keep a crowd he dressed like them he ate with them, he talked like them, and yes cursed liked them.

    If Mark is excusing the sin of Dr Schuller we have issues, but I would say to you don’t be so quick to judge, if I had the opportunity to speak at the CC then I would take it, and deal with the scripture, Mark should confront Schuller on his false teaching, but you and I do not know if that has or hasn’t happened.

    There should be no excuse for sin including the sin of compliancy where the church is not relevant at all, nothing in scripture says we should do Sundays this way or that, or that we should dress this way or that (as far as style goes) there are many things that scripture is silent about, but that is where wisdom and discernment come in, some people would say you cant have drum set in church yet they use and organ as if it is some sort of holy instrument. My point is, it is vital that we can relate to the culture we live in, to the beach bum I became a beach bum, to the cowboy I became a cowboy to the people at the CC he became part of that culture, but to do all of these things in Love, (not the modern term love) correcting, kindness, prayerful, discipline…..and not giving into the culture,

    so I ask again where has he become a false teacher

    and, what are you doing to bring light into your communities, and preach the gospel

    this is a very relevant topic, seeing our culture is intrigued by Mark Driscoll, so I applaud you on being relevant.

  61. Travis,

    You said, “From what I recall Jesus had large followings, and was culturally relevant, he was where the people were, he made jokes to keep a crowd he dressed like them he ate with them, he talked like them, and yes cursed liked them.”

    Are you serious? Best check your recall with Scripture.

    Further, don’t err by misreading Paul’s description of his approach to evangelism. Paul is telling us that he did not allow his culture to impeded the Gospel. Also, the purpose of the gathering of saints on the Lord’s day is not evangelism – it’s for the worship of the Lord and building up of the saints for the ministry of the church.

  62. DavidW says:

    Travis: Lets look briefly at contextualization from Jesus and Paul. Jesus came to Jewish culture, not the cosmopolitan culture we have in America today. Thus, people were already looking for the Messiah, already believed in the God of the Old Testament, already had the O.T. Scriptures, and many had already heard the preaching of John the Baptist. Sure he was “culturally relevant”, as He was a Jew also, and spoke in everyday language about things they were well familiar with: farming, animal husbandry, business ethics, family relationships, etc. In similar fashion, Paul preached the basic Gospel to Jews (since he had been a Pharisee) and Gentiles alike. But the message was the same. The holy, righteous character of God was always upheld by them. Did either Jesus, Paul, or any of the early church use the foul communication that certainly existed in their day? Absolutely not, since the Scriptures forbid that.

    But how does Driscoll “contextualize” Jesus and the Gospel for today’s American culture? By perverting His holy character, describing Jesus as a “Prize fighter with a tatoo on his leg”, cool “party dude”, “punch-you-in-the-nose dude”, “bartender”, etc. Problem with such “contextualization” is, what image does that translate into today? I mean, if Jesus was a cool party dude, then since He is the same yesterday, today and forever, He would also be a cool party dude today: raving at the strippers, snorting cocaine, chugging booze, etc. How can such a person as that be holy, pure and sinless? How is the “punch you in the nose dude” that Driscoll says Jesus is, match the turn-the-other-cheek, meek, loving, long-suffering Christ that we see in the Scriptures? And how are women supposed to follow such a macho, prize fighter, party dude?

    Referring to Jesus, you say “he made jokes to keep a crowd”. Really? Show me evidence of that in the Scriptures. I don’t see it. Do you mean when Jesus called the Pharisees a brood of vipers, that Driscoll seems to think is so funny? Or that when Jesus was standing at the door and knocking, that He was being left out of the church while they were having a potluck, like some stooge in a sitcom, which Driscoll thinks is so terribly funny? Was Jesus the standup comedian that Driscoll tries to be, telling the kind of jokes Driscoll tells from the pulpit: jokes on masturbation, on the male organ, sex acts, female anatomy, etc?

    You said Jesus “even cursed like them”. Where is that in Scripture? I encourage you to read Eph. 4:17-29; Eph. 5:3-12; Col. 3:5-10; Rom. 8:6-8; Prov. 3:32; Prov.4:24; Prov.6:12; Prov. 8:13; Titus 2:6. Thus He couldn’t have used cursing or foul language and also be sinless.

    Sure Paul was all things to all men (to the Jew he became as a Jew, etc.). How does he actually display that in the Scriptures? To the murderer, he certainly didn’t become a murderer. Nor did he become a thief, liar, etc. to be “relevant” to them. Rather, Paul “became” like them in their understanding, but not in behavior. How else are we to communicate the Gospel unless we understand where they are coming from.

    You ask where Driscoll is a false teacher? How about when he has taught Christian women, in a church gathering, that God commands they perform a certain particular unnatural sexual act, and if she does not do so, she is a sinner. Driscoll actually teaches (I have heard this in his sermons, and read it in at least one of his books) that God describes that act in Scripture. First, there is no such command in Scripture. Nor does the Scripture (Song of Solomon) even describe what Driscoll insists. Nor does the intenal evidence of the book even support Driscoll’s theology. Driscoll’s teaching is absolute false doctrine. Then to make it a sin for not performing such an act, is also false doctrine. To teach that God commands such a thing is an attack on the very character of God, making Him a perverse, exploitive chauvinist.

    You say our culture is “intrigued by Mark Driscoll”. Why wouldn’t they be? He gives them what they want. He gives them a perverted Gospel, a perverted God, a perverted Jesus, and displays by his own unbiblical examples just how hip, cool, and unholy you can be and still call yourself a “Christian”. But what has God said about all this? “You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.” James 4:4

  63. Jeff H says:

    “Also, the purpose of the gathering of saints on the Lord’s day is not evangelism – it’s for the worship of the Lord and building up of the saints for the ministry of the church.

    AMEN, Manfred! You are spot on.

    Why would we ever want to invite tares into Church with the wheat, or send wheat out to mix with a barn of tares? And yet, this is happening increasingly.

    Tares WILL pull the Church away from Jesus, given the opportunity.

    In Christ,

    Jeff H

  64. jude newman says:

    Travis, can you please point out where Jesus joked , and cursed to keep a crowd. With this level of Bible illiteracy any speaker would sound good if they spoke the name of Jesus. in John 6;58-59 many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. Jesus said to the twelve” Do you also want to go away. But Simon Peter answered Him ” Lord to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.”
    In Mathew 10: 17-22 the rich young ruler also walked away. Both times Jesus didn’t call them back or compromise, both times He looked around and addressed His disciples, not the person walking away. There is an excellent sermon on Defcon from Phil Johnson on being culturally relevant.
    _____________________________________________________________________________________

    The sermon I mentioned is What was Paul doing on Mars Hill

  65. Im in full agreement the church or ecclesia is of the body of Christ only, the whole part of missional theology is to get the Christian into the “world” without becoming like the world.

    I ask again what are you doing to preach the gospel in your communities, to love your enemies?

    As far as the joking goes I was reffering to Jesus talking about hiding the light, I have had a hebrew scholr tell me this is a very comical piece in scripture, thats how he was holdoing a crowd, preaching laughing, correcting he was man and God.

    Ill respond a little more on the Driscoll stuff later, im sure we can come up with somethings your pastor says are sins that we could lable him a false teacher. (maybe drinking, smoking, listen to rock music….)

    I was not saying Christ was sitting there cursing at the crowds, what I was saying is he uses mockery and has cursed in scripture, i will get the text tommorow, but thanks for the kindness.

    For the record I dont think anything goes when it comes to being relevent, that would be unbiblical, I just think a lot of Christians take such a hard stance the opposite way and are in sin as well, by not preaching the gosple to his eighbor or coworker etc.

  66. Travis,

    How would teaching your congregation that drinking, smoking and listening to rock music is sin label a pastor as a false teacher? I think you speak again from a gross misunderstanding of Scripture by the comments you are making.

    The Desert Pastor

  67. jude newman says:

    I just read a good quote regarding MD by A.W. Tozer.
    Christ is “being courted with a familiarity that reveals a total ignorance of who He is. It is not the reverent intimacy of an adoring saint, but the impudent familiarity of a carnal lover.

  68. >>As far as the joking goes I was reffering to Jesus talking about hiding the light, I have had a hebrew scholr tell me this is a very comical piece in scripture, thats how he was holdoing a crowd, preaching laughing, correcting he was man and God.<<

    Are you sure this guy is a real Hebrew scholar? The whole tone of Scripture sounds very serious and I don't see how anyone can say that Jesus was laughing about the situation. I'm sure the Bible would say if He was laughing about it. It sounds like this "Hebrew scholar" was giving you a snow job or he's been snowed himself! Either that, or he's decided to get noticed by bringing something new into the picture that does not line up with Scripture. There are plenty of people (including Hebrew scholars) that would possibly do it for the sake of

    1.) notoriety,
    2.) to be noticed, or
    3.) simply to follow the in-crowd!

    Holiness is a very serious and important matter which should NOT be taken lightly by anyone. If you have a candlestick and hide it then you are no better than the salt that lost its savor and therefore needs to be trodden underfoot (or rejected with disdain). You cannot be light or salt to the world when you are cursing and making light of God or His Word! Considering Jesus is the Son of God and always did the will of the Father (who sent Him), I know He definitely would NOT make light of God. He was definitely 100% man and 100% God but His manhood would NOT have done anything against His Godhood and that includes making light of a very serious matter such as the holiness of God!

    So this brings us to a question of where do you think Christ stood? Do you believe that He might have been able to sin when He was a child? Why or why not?

  69. I apologize for not being able to put my words together very well, I have been shooting from the hip (if you will) and not being very thourogh, I got involved because I think it is a good topic, give me sometime and I would like to answer some questions, with a little better knowladge than previously.

    As far as the drinking etc goes, I was meerly trying to show that people make good things into absolute things like drinking and smoking by saying Driscoll is a false teacher because of this issue of sex and different positions ect would be false, I need to listen to the sermon to get the context, so lets take one thing at a time, the blog is about the crystal cathedral,

    and if Driscoll is a false teacher and a friend of heritics and apostates (Dr. Schuller).

    as far as the this quote “The whole tone of Scripture sounds very serious and I don’t see how anyone can say that Jesus was laughing about the situation.”

    You yourself said “sounds very serious” how do you know this, does it say, Jesus is serious right now?

    Again what has anyone here done to reach out to the lost love your enemies and preach the gospel to them?

    Let me also state I am not saying Driscoll is perfect, John MacAurther, John Piper, Calvin, Luther have stated things that are false and have acted on them, there is no perfect teacher, in saying that Im sure you guys still follow Piper and Calivin and Luther? Have they repented for there false teachings and what false teachings are teachings that should lable some a false teacher?

  70. Actually Travis,

    You make several incorrect assumptions. We do NOT follow Piper, Calvin, or Luther. While each of these men produced good material, we would not endorse them. Piper is now endorsing doctrines and ministers in direct opposition to the clearly stated Word of God. Luther had an incredible hatred of the Jews and never fully left the Roman Catholic heresy. Calvin endorsed a state religion along with a host of other issues which this post is not about.

    I believe the false understanding that we are either Protestant or Catholic is erroneous at best. As a minister of an unaffiliated church, I am not Protestant. There is a clear and distinct line of true believers down through the centuries who have always stood for the truth. I do not believe they are necessarily labelled as Baptist, Evangelical, or otherwise. A Protestant belongs to a group or denomination that came out of the Roman Catholic system of heresy. This would clearly identify groups like the Methodists, Presbyterians, Anglicans, and Lutherans, but does not (and historically never has) identified those who were and are baptistic in faith and doctrine.

    To conclude, you have made several comments about whether we “reach out to the lost, love our enemies, and preach the gospel to them.” You obviously have not spent nearly enough time on this blog or my own at The Desert Pastor otherwise you would have already received your answer. Missions both here and abroad is one of our highest priorities both with these blogs and in our own personal lives and the ministries in which we serve in our local churches.

    The Desert Pastor

    P.S. – I would highly recommend instead of “shooting from the hip” that you do a little more research before trying to tackle a situation of which you have no or little knowledge.

  71. The reason for shooting at the hip was it was an issue that I wanted to discuss, i have been occupied at home so I havnt been able to do a whole lot of research, I do think that your group here needs to do there research a little more as well when it comes to individuals, ie Driscoll, I will be one of the first to brig Mark and anyone else up on Church dicipline if it needs to happen. If you can show any evidence for church discipline I would gladly bring it to his attention, and talk with the elders, other wise this is pointless chatter.

    So whom do you guys subscribe to being the set apart of the church since the roman catholic split?

  72. DP:

    You wrote, “Piper is now endorsing doctrines and ministers in direct opposition to the clearly stated Word of God.”

    Finally, and thanks!!! People are starting to catch on and vocalize these things with Piper. He (Piper) tacitly endoreses the Toronto Blessing and has taken his staff there. More recently he endorsed elements of N. T. Wright’s ministry and teaching who (Wright) can rightly be called a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

    Calvinistc men in my IFB circles are very reluctant to give clear cautions to young people about the disturbing elements of Piper’s theology and methods of ministry.

    BTW, has Piper ever openly rebuked Driscoll as MacArthur has more than once now?

    LM

  73. Jeff H says:

    Travis,

    You wrote: “The reason for shooting at the hip was it was an issue that I wanted to discuss, i have been occupied at home so I havnt been able to do a whole lot of research…”

    Might I suggest that you stop posting here, then, until you can resolve your time issues and give full diligence to your posts.

    In an apparent effort to muddy the water and take the focus off of your lack of respectful engagement, you’ve made some very sweeping accusations here at the expense of others (without doing your homework FIRST) – and those accusations are false. You would see that if you DID your homework.

    You’ve also dodged requests for clear responses – again – by claiming a time constraint.

    This is analogous to talking on your cell phone while your ordering your food at a restaurant. Neither party is served by doing that.

    Take some time, and please do it right.

    In Jesus,

    – Jeff H
    ___________________________________________________________________________

    The Scripture references that others have cited here make it clear that Mark Driscoll’s unabashedly filthy mouth disqualifies him from ministry. He needs to repent of that behavior, leave the pulpit, and return to the pews, at LEAST until he can bear fruit worthy of repentance. If he will not repent, then he should be subjected to biblical Church discipline.

    As for agreeing to preach at the CC, I am in agreement that it is a slippery slope for a God fearing Pastor. This, however, does not apply to Driscoll.

    Right now Driscoll is merely sullying the Lord’s Name.

    In Jesus,

    – Jeff H

  74. jude newman says:

    Travis, there are true men of God around and I have learned much from them. I thank God for them for their sound biblical stand in this time of increasing apostacy.I do not follow them, as they are all merely men and subject to error and sin as we all are. I follow my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and Him only do I serve. As for MD he sees God’s Word as something to strip down to coarse jokes and smut forever taking away the purity and holiness of my Lord and Savior in the minds of many. If you have truly been redeemed this must grieve you. In time past NO man of God has ever done this. He has planted his unsound teachings in many minds. How can they ever see God in light of who the Bible says He is when people like MD degrade and cheapen any teaching he might give. If we truly learn who He is that He is holy and worthy of all glory, honour and praise surely we would never treat Him in this manner.

    I got of track a bit there. MD preached at a pagan temple of a god of self love and rule. He called this man a brother. He told them they will meet Jesus at the end of life implying they are saved. When did the biblical understanding for true faith become so distorted and accommodating to everyone.

  75. Lou,

    Thanks for your comment and for stopping by. To our knowledge, Piper has never openly rebuked Driscoll and continues to endorse him despite fiascos like preaching at Crystal Cathedral. There are more issues at stake with Piper that are currently being researched, but as far as we are concerned at DefCon, we will no longer continue to endorse the ministry of Desiring God and John Piper.

    Yes, Piper has endorsed Driscoll, NT Wright and others and glossed over the facts that people like NT Wright and Douglas Wilson are preaching another gospel. No, instead he invites them to share the pulpit. You are correct that there are disturbing elements of his theology which in short order will be placed on our site.

    It is sad when pastors refuse to give clear cautions, but some sadly are more afraid of the opinions of men than they are what God thinks of the doctrinal deviances.

    The Desert Pastor

  76. Desert Pastor:

    Thanks for speaking to the issues with Piper and acknowledging my joining you in those concerns. I have been on this subject for about two years.

    If I may, with our host’s permission I am linking you to two articles at my blog that address John Piper. The first in relation to the corrupt communication of Mark Driscoll. The second deals with Piper and enumerates (with commentary) a number of the issues that should cause any balanced Bible-believing Christian to admonish him and if he continues to be unresponsive, separate from him as a disobedient brother.

    This is the link to both articles.

    Kind regards,

    LM
    __________________________________________________________________________________

    Desert Pastor:

    Hmm, looks like you are this blog’s host. So, with your permission for the above links. I’ll look forward to the updates on the “disturbing elements of his theology” you plan to post. Can I sign up for automatic alerts to these? Send me an e-mail with details.

    Lou

  77. >>You yourself said “sounds very serious” how do you know this, does it say, Jesus is serious right now?<<

    You have to look at the context of Scripture. The previous verses are very serious as to what happens. I shared this with you and you obviously overlooked it so I will share it again!

    I stated, "Holiness is a very serious and important matter which should NOT be taken lightly by anyone. If you have a candlestick and hide it then you are no better than the salt that lost its savor and therefore needs to be trodden underfoot (or rejected with disdain). You cannot be light or salt to the world when you are cursing and making light of God or His Word! Considering Jesus is the Son of God and always did the will of the Father (who sent Him), I know He definitely would NOT make light of God. He was definitely 100% man and 100% God but His manhood would NOT have done anything against His Godhood and that includes making light of a very serious matter such as the holiness of God!"

    Sadly enough, I have seen people who take the holiness of God lightly because they believe that Jesus could have sinned (or even did sin) when He was a child. This is absolutely NOT possible so again I ask the questions I asked previously…

    "So this brings us to a question of where do you think Christ stood? Do you believe that He might have been able to sin when He was a child? Why or why not?"

  78. Doctrine of impeccability.

    Never sinned; couldn’t have sinned; end of story.

    I’m also curious (and a bit dismayed) about the John Piper question – I’ve always had great respect for him. Is there something specific that has already been discussed here? Will DefCon no longer endorse Desiring God solely because Piper endorses Potty Mouth Boy, or does it run deeper than that?

    Lou, thanks for posting your link – will check it out when I get a chance.

  79. Marie,

    Sadly, it runs much deeper than that and regards doctrinal teaching. In due course, we will have an article explaining our position and why we believe that we can no longer endorse Desiring God Ministries and John Piper. When that day comes, we encourage each reader to ponder and research for themselves – not just take our word for anything. Thanks.

    The Desert Pastor

    PS – In regards to the impeccability of Christ which we fully believe unlike many within evangelical circles, I would recommend these three posts from DefCon in August 2008.

    Impeccability – Part 1

    Impeccability – Part 2

    Impeccability – Conc.

    _________________________________________________________________________

    Lou,

    Thanks for the links. Just to clarify, I am not the blog’s host, but Pilgrim is. I am privileged to know Pilgrim and the work being done here, as well as the accountability factor amongst each of the editors and contributors. I am one of the editors.

    The Desert Pastor

  80. Ill be back after things calm down with the new baby, I shouldnt have just fired form the hip.

    I will contact Driscoll and bring the alogations to him and the elders, although I do not know what to bring against him for having a “potty mouth” it seems relitive, in parts of the world I can say bloody and the F word and no one thinks twice. So I dont have anything to bring against him as far as his mouth, seriously if you guys want specific things brought to his attention email me, and I will bring them to before the church. falldown@lord.cc

  81. Jeff H says:

    Travis,

    You wrote: “it seems relitive, in parts of the world I can say —— and — – —- and no one thinks twice. So I dont have anything to bring against him as far as his mouth”

    Are you kidding? I don’t even want to repeat your ‘euphemisms’, much less agree with your assessment of MD.

    I think your email address “falldown” speaks volumes.

    In Christ,

    – Jeff H

  82. Marie, you wrote, “Lou, thanks for posting your link – will check it out when I get a chance.”

    I hope you find the articles helpful.

    DP, thanks for clarifying the roles here. You wrote, “…we will have an article explaining our position and why we believe that we can no longer endorse Desiring God Ministries and John Piper.”

    I will look forward to that article. Again, good to read the awakening to what Piper stands for and is defending. My IFB friends simply refuse to critically address the numerous disconcerting issues with Piper.

    Lou

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