Dear Jehovah’s Witness: Is the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society an inspired prophet of God or not?

kingdom-hall Is the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society an inspired prophet of God or not?

Yes: They claim to be prophets of God.

“So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet?…This “prophet” was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah’s Christian witnesses….Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a “prophet” of God. It is another thing to prove it.” Watchtower April 1, 1972 Page 197

No: They deny that they’re inspired.

“However, the Watchtower does not claim to be inspired in its utterances nor is it dogmatic. It invites careful and critical examination of its contents in the light of the Scriptures.” Watchtower August 15, 1950 Page 263

Two Questions.

1). How can you claim on one hand to be a prophet of God, and yet deny being inspired?

2). If the Jehovah’s Witness organization is an inspired prophet of God, then how do you explain the countless false prophecies and doctrinal flip-flops made by a supposed “inspired” organization? If it is not inspired, then what is the final authority for the rank and file Jehovah’s Witnesses?

Check out more Contradictions in Watchtower Theology at CARM.


72 thoughts on “Dear Jehovah’s Witness: Is the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society an inspired prophet of God or not?

  1. The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society is a printing company and the legal and office spaces used by Jehovah’s Witnesses as the headquarters.

    It is not an inspired prophet and never claimed to be. None of us are.

    JWs are ‘prophets’ in the sense of speaking the Bible’s messages that was given by inspired prophets of the past. But we are not stating new revelation.

    And there have not been false prophecies as there have not been prophecies made at all.

  2. Steve,

    I’m excited to get the chance to have a discussion on this topic with you. You once left a comment, on my blog, and I guess you never checked back.

    I agree there are 2 types of prophets. There are those who proclaim God’s word, and there are those who are inspired by God to foretell the future. How many times do you think someone must attempt to foretell the future before they’re considered a false prophet? Here’s a similar question. How many times does someone have to commit murder before they’re a murderer? I’d say the answer to both of those questions is once. Here’s a quote from the Watchtower, and they seem to agree with me.

    “True, there have been those in times past who predicted an ‘end to the world’, even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The ‘end’ did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing?.. Missing from such people were God’s truths and evidence that he was using and guiding them,” (Awake, Oct. 8, 1968).

    Has the Watchtower ever predicted an end to the world?

    “Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge,” (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1923, p. 106).

    It seems like an open and shut case to me that Jehovah’s Witnesses are false prophets, and certainly don’t meet the standard of perfection set forth in Deuteronomy 18.

    I have another question for you. Are you born again?

    Thanks for your comment.

    Bill

  3. jehovahs witness says:

    hi i’m a jehovahs witness myself, when we say armegedon is near we mean that it is coming we don’t have a specific date, the bible speaks of the last days and it describes our world now. If you murder and repent from that sin you will be forgiven.

  4. jehovah’s witness – you are aware that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society has set forth “prophecies” containing specific dates for Christ’s return which failed to come true, aren’t you?

    What does the Bible say about those who make predictions (i.e. false prophecies) that don’t come to pass? What does Jesus Christ say about what men know of the day and hour of His coming?

    In Christ,
    CD

  5. You just don’t get it Bill.

    Who cares about the WTBTS? Not me.

    Who cares what they printed in the past as that does not define Jehovah’s Witnesses?

    Where do you get the leap of “It seems like an open and shut case to me that Jehovah’s Witnesses are false prophets,” when you make the quote from a 1968 Awake and a 1923 Watchtower and use those to define all Jehovah’s Witnesses.

    What prejudice you have? What a bigot you are.

    Did you know that I did not write that 1968 Awake and I was not born in 1923?

    So how can you judge me by something that I did not do?

    The answer is that you are a bigot.

    ___________________________________________________________________________

    Bill,

    You also asked “Are you born again?”

    No. I can not be born again because I was never born the first time.

    That phrase in the context that Jesus used it to Nicodemus was that to see the kingdom, which Israelites were expecting because they were born as a race in a nation of God’s people; the old covenant was not good enough, so he must be born into a new one by water and spirit. Neither you nor I was born into the old covenant so we can not be born again into the new one. We can only be born once, the first time into the new one by water and spirit.

    Jehovah God has not baptized me in holy spirit as in anointing. But I don’t think that he has done that to you also.

    But I don’t care about being born again because it is not necessary to be saved from one’s sins or from God’s destruction, faith in Jesus is.

    ___________________________________________________________________________

    To Coram Deo,

    “you are aware that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society has set forth “prophecies” containing specific dates for Christ’s return which failed to come true, aren’t you?”

    Actually they have not set specific dates for Christ’s return.

    They had set anticipation to years that mark the Biblical timeline, but that is not what you stated is it?

    “What does the Bible say about those who make predictions (i.e. false prophecies) that don’t come to pass?

    Prediction from pre and diction meaning speaking before it happened. I don’t see that they have spoken before it happened. Thus they have not made predictions or prophesies. But then if you are “in Christ” why aren’t you looking to the prophecies that Christ stated about the end?

    “What does Jesus Christ say about what men know of the day and hour of His coming?”

    And the WTBTS have not stated the day or hour have they?

    But as I stated above? Who cares?

    If you want to know about what Jehovah’s Witnesses teach, go to http://www.jwproclaimers.org

  6. lyn says:

    Steve,
    With all due respect, why do you call Jesus Christ a liar? You say you cannot be born again, yet, Christ commands we be born again, or born from above, to enter the kingdom of God. This new birth is an inward change by the power of God as He changes our way of thinking and brings to life our dead hearts {read Ezekiel 36:26-27}. This is the doctrine of regeneration, the new birth is what the Apostle Paul meant when he said “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation {to form, shape, i.e. to completely change or transform} the old has gone, the new has come!” 2nd Corinthians 5:17
    Read this from Titus 3:5 as well, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration {from greek paliggenesia-new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration}, and renewing of the Holy Ghost”
    This new birth has nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with an inward change that can only be wrought by a Holy God. For all who are truly born from above are a miracle of God. He takes a corrupt, wicked and vile sinner and transforms them into a new creation in Christ.
    May Almighty God reveal truth to you, may His Spirit teach and lead you in all truth. To trust in the teachings of man is to leave yourself wide open for heresy. Cry out to Him for wisdom, He rewards all who diligently seek Him. May He bless you this day with His truth.

  7. Steve,

    It is written “However the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word I have not commanded him to speak, that prophet must die. In case you should say in your heart how shall we know a word that Jehovah has not spoken? When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened of him.” – Deuteronomy 18:20-22

    WATCHTOWER FALSE PROPHECIES
    1877 ‘The End Of This World; that is the end of the gospel and the beginning of the millennial age is nearer than most men suppose; indeed we have already entered the transition period, which is to be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation Dan. 12:3.” (N.H. Barbour and C.T. Russell, Three Worlds, and the Harvest of This World, p. 17).

    1879 “Christ came in the character of a Bridegroom in 1874…. at the beginning of the Gospel harvest.” (Watchtower, Oct 1879, p. 4)

    1880 “We need not here repeat the evidences that the “seventh trump” began its sounding A.D., 1840, and will continue until the end of the time of trouble, and the end of “The times of the Gentiles,” A.D., 1914, and that it is the trouble of this “Great day,” which is here symbolically called the voice of the Archangel when he begins the deliverance of fleshly Israel. “At that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince (Archangel) which standeth for the children of thy people and there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation.” Dan. xii. 1. Nor will we here, again present the conclusive Bible proof that our Lord came for his Bride in 1874, and has an unseen work as Reaper of the first-fruits of this Gospel Age. (Zion’s Watchtower November, 1880 p. 1)

    1886 “The outlook at the opening of the New Year has some very encouraging features. The outward evidences are that the marshaling of the hosts for the battle of the great day of God Almighty, is in progress while the skirmishing is commencing. … The time is come for Messiah to take the dominion of earth and to overthrow the oppressors and corrupters of the earth, (Rev. 19:15 and 11:17, 18) preparatory to the establishment of everlasting peace upon the only firm foundation of righteousness and truth.” (Zion’s Watchtower, January, 1886;Watchtower reprints I, p. 817)

    1888 “In this chapter we present the Bible evidence proving that the full end of the times of the gentiles, i.e., the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in A.D. 1914; and that the date will be the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men. And be it observed, that if this is shown to be a fact firmly established by the Scriptures, it will prove; Firstly, that at that date the Kingdom of God, for which our Lord taught us to pray, saying, Thy Kingdom come, will obtain full, universal control, and that it will then be set up, or firmly established, in the earth, on the ruins of present institutions.” (The Time Is At Hand, 1888, p. 76, 77)

    1889 “Be not surprised, then, when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A.D. 1878, and that the ‘battle of the great day of God Almighty (Rev. 16:14) which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth’s present rulership, is already commenced. The gathering of the armies is plainly visible from the standpoint of God’s word.” (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, The Time Is At Hand, 1889 Ed., p. 101. The 1915 Edition of this texts changed “A.D. 1914″ to read ‘A.D. 1915′)

    1889 “Here we furnish the evidence that from the creation of Adam to (but not including) A.D. 1873 was six thousand years. And though the Bible contains no direct statement that the seventh thousand will be the epoch of Christ’s reign, the great Sabbath Day of restitution to the world, yet the venerable tradition is not without a reasonable foundation.” (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 39. 1889)

    1889 “If, then, the seventh thousand-year period of earth’s history be an epoch specially noted as the period of Christ’s reign, we shall by showing that it began in 1873, be proving that we are already in it.” (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 40. 1889)

    1889 “In the coming 26 years, all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved.” (C.T. Russell, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 98-99, 1889)

    1889 “In this chapter we present the Bible evidence which indicates that six thousand years from the creation of Adam were complete with A.D. 1872; and hence that, since A.D. 1872 are chronologically entered upon the seventh thousand or the Millennium.” (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 33, 1889)

    1889 “Remember that the forty years’ Jewish Harvest ended October A.D. 69, and was followed by the complete overthrow of that nation; and that likewise the forty years of the Gospel age harvest will end October, 1914, and that likewise the overthrow of ‘Christendom,’ so-called, must be expected to immediately follow.” (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 245)

    1894 “Seventeen years ago people said, concerning the time features presented in Millennial Dawn, They seem reasonable in many respects, but surely no such radical changes could occur between now and the close of 1914: if you had proved that they would come about in a century or two, it would seem much more probable. What changes have since occurred, and what velocity is gained daily? ‘The old is quickly passing and the new is coming in.’ Now, in view of recent labor troubles and threatened anarchy, our readers are writing to know if there may not be a mistake in the 1914 date. They say that they do not see how present conditions can hold out so long under the strain. We see no reason for changing the figures-nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God’s dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble.” (Zion’s Watchtower, Can It Be Delayed until 1914? C. T. Russell July 15, 1894, Also in Watchtower Reprints, l894 p. 1677)

    1894 “A few more years will wind up the present order of things, and then the chastened world will stand face to face with the actual conditions of the established Kingdom of God. And yet the course of the Church is to be finished within the space of time that intervenes.” (Watchtower p. 56, 1894)

    1894 “We see no reason for changing the figures – nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God’s dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble.” (Watchtower July 15, 1894, p 266; p 1677 reprints)

    1894 “We see no reason for changing the figures nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God’s dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble.” (Watchtower, July 15, 1894, Reprints p. 1677)

    1897 “…this measurement is 3416 inches, symbolizing 3416 years…. This calculation shows A.D. 1874 as marking the beginning of the period of trouble….” (Russell, Studies in the Scriptures: Thy Kingdom Come, Series III, p. 342, 1897 edition [1916 edition changed to read: "We find it to be 3457 inches, symbolizing 3457 years.... Thus the Pyramid witnesses that the close of 1914 will be the beginning of the time of trouble...."] note: the measurement was the length of an interior passageway discovered inside the Pyramids. It has no reference in Scripture.)

    1897 “Complete destruction of the ‘powers that be’ of ‘this present evil worlds – political, financial, ecclesiastical – about the close of the Time of the Gentiles; October A.D. 1914.” (C.T. Russell, Studies in the Scriptures, IV, p. 622, 1897)

    1897 “Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present, since October 1874, A.D….and the formal inauguration of his kingly office dates from April 1878, A.D.” (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol.4, p.621, 1897)

    1897 “The distillery, the brewery, the saloon, the brothel, the pool-room, all time-killing and character-depraving business will be stopped; and their servants will be given something to do that will be beneficial to themselves and others. “Similarly, the building of war-vessels, the manufacture of munitions of war and defense will cease, and armies will be disbanded. The new Kingdom will have no need of these, but will have abundant power to execute summary justice in the punishment of evil doers… “The banking and brokerage business, and other like employment’s, very useful under present conditions, will no longer have a place; for under the new conditions the human race will be required to treat each others as members of one family, and private capital and money to loan and to be needed will be things of the past. Landlords and renting agencies will find new employment also, because the new King will not recognize as valid patents and deeds now on record. “…namely, that with present conveniences, if the whole people were put to work systematically and wisely, not more than three hours labor for each individual would be necessary.” (Studies, Vol. IV, pp. 633-635, 1897)

    1902 “In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the kingdom of God, will be accomplished by the end of A.D. 1914.” (The Time Is At Hand, 1902 edition, p. 99)

    1903 “When Uranus and Jupiter meet in the humane sign of Aquarius in 1914, the long-promised era will have made a fair start in the work of setting man free to work out his own salvation, and will insure the ultimate realization of dreams and ideals of all poets and sages in history.” (Watchtower, May 1, 1903, p. 130-131; p3184 Reprints)

    1904 “According to our expectations the stress of the great time of trouble will be on us soon, somewhere between 1910 and 1912, culminating with the end of the ‘Times of the Gentiles,’ October, 1914.” (The New Creation, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 6, p. 579, 1904)

    1908 “In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished at the end of A. D. 1914.” (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1908 ed.; p. 99)

    1908 “True, it is expecting great things to claim, as we do, that within the coming twenty-six years all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved” (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1908 ed.; p. 99)

    1914 “Even if the time of our change should not come within ten years, what more should we ask? Are we not a blessed, happy people? Is not our God faithful? If anyone knows anything better, let him take it. If any of you ever find anything better, we hope you will tell us.” (Watchtower, Dec 15, 1914, p. 376.)

    1914 “Studying God’s Word, we have measured the 2520 years, the seven symbolic times, from that year 606 B.C. and have found that it reached down to October, 1914, as nearly as we were able to reckon. We did not say positively that this would be the year.” (Watchtower, November 1, 1914, p. 325)

    1914 “While it’s possible that Armageddon may begin next Spring, yet this purely speculation to attempt to say just when. We see, however, that there are parallels between the close of the Jewish age and this Gospel age. These parallels seem to point to the year just before us part particularly the early months.” (Watchtower Reprints, VI, Sept 1, 1914, p. 5527)

    1914 “There is absolutely no ground for Bible students to question that the consummation of this Gospel age is now even at the door, and that it will end as the Scriptures foretell in a great time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation. We see the participants in this great crisis banding themselves together… The great crisis, the great clash, symbolically represented as a fire, that will consume the ecclesiastical heavens and the social earth, is very near.” (Watchtower Reprints, VI, May 1, 1914, p. 5450)

    1915 “The present great war in Europe is the beginning of the Armageddon of the Scriptures Rev 19:16-20). It will eventuate in the complete overthrow of all the systems of error which have so long oppressed the people of God and deluded the world. We believe the present war cannot last much longer until revolutions shall break out” (C.T. Russell, Pastor Russell’s Sermons, p. 676, Sometime during World War I)

    1915 Here we furnish the evidence that from the creation of Adam to A.D. 1873 was six thousand years. And though the Bible contains no direct statement that the seventh thousand will be the epoch of Christ’s reign, the great Sabbath Day of restitution to the world, yet the venerable tradition is not without reasonable foundation. (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1915 ed.; p. 39)

    1915 If, then, the seventh thousand-year period of earth’s history be an epoch specially noted as the period of Christ’s reign, we shall, by showing that it began in A.D. 1873, be proving that we are already in it. (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1915 ed.; p. 40)

    1915 Firstly, that at that date [1914] the Kingdom of God, for which our Lord taught us to pray, saying, “Thy Kingdom come,” will begin to assume control, and that it will then shortly be “set up,” or firmly established, in the earth, on the ruins of present institutions. (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1915 ed.; p. 77)

    1915 “In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the kingdom of God, will be accomplished near the end of A.D. 1915. (The Time Is At Hand, 1915 edition, p. 99)

    1915 “Be not surprised, then, when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A.D. 1878, and that the ‘battle of the great day of God Almighty’ (Rev. 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1915, with the complete overthrow of the earth’s present rulership, is already commenced.” (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1915 ed.; p. 101)

    1915 “As in the type that date – three and a half years after the death of Christ – marked the end of all special favor to the Jew and the beginning of favor to the Gentiles, so we recognize A.D. 1881 as marking the close of the ‘high calling,’ or invitation to the blessing peculiar to this age – to become joint-heirs with Christ and partakers of the divine nature.” (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1915 ed.; p. 235)

    1915 So it was in this harvest also up to A.D. 1878 the time prophecies and the fact of the Lord’s presence, substantially as here presented, though less clearly, was our message. Since then the work has widened, and the view of other truths has become brighter and clearer; but the same fact and scriptures, teaching the same time and presence, stand unchallenged and incontrovertible. (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1915 ed.; p. 236)

    1915 The Gentile Times prove that the present governments must all be overturned about the close of A.D. 1915; and Parallelism above shows that this period corresponds exactly with the year A.D. 70, which witnessed the completion of the downfall of the Jewish polity. (The Time Is At Hand, 1915 edition, p. 242)

    1915 We are already living in the seventh millennium – since October 1872. (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1915 ed.; p. 363)

    1915 The Battle of Armageddon, to which this war is leading, will be a great contest between right and wrong, and will signify the complete and everlasting overthrow of the wrong, and the permanent establishment of Messiah’s righteous kingdom for the blessing of the world. … Our sympathies are broad enough to cover all engaged in the dreadful strife, as our hope is broad enough and deep enough to include all in the great blessings which our Master and his Millennial kingdom are about to bring to the world. (Watchtower Reprints, VI, April 1, 1915, p. 5659)

    1915 To our understanding the general call to this joint heirship with our Redeemer as members of the New Creation of God, ceased in 1881. (The New Creation; 1899; 1915 ed.; p. 95)

    1916 “The Bible chronology herein presented shows that the six great 1000 year days beginning with Adam are ended, and that the great 7th Day, the 1000 years of Christ’s Reign, began in 1873.” (The Time Is At Hand, Foreword, p 2, 1916)

    1916 We see no reason for doubting, therefore, that the Times of the Gentiles ended in October, 1914; and that a few more years will witness their utter collapse and the full establishment of God’s kingdom in the hands of Messiah.” (Watchtower Reprints, VI, Sept 1, 1916, p. 5950)

    1917 ‘There will be no slip-up…Abraham should enter upon the actual possession of his promised inheritance in the year 1925′ (Watchtower Oct. 15, 1917, p. 6157)

    1917 The Spring of 1918 will bring upon Christendom a spasm of anguish greater even than that experienced in the Fall of 1914…. The travail that is coming is to be upon nominal Zion- “Christendom” … “Babylon”; and it will be a great and sore affliction- “A Time of Trouble such as was not since there was a nation.” (The Finished Mystery p. 62 [stated to be the "Posthumous Work of Pastor Russell" on p. 2])

    1917 ‘No doubt Satan believed the Millennial Kingdom was due to be set-up in 1915…Be that as it may, there is evidence that the establishment of the Kingdom in Palestine will probably be in 1925, ten years later than we once calculated.’ (Studies In The Scriptures, Vol 7, The Finished Mystery, p. 128)

    1917 Some interesting developments in connection with the setting up of the Kingdom may occur in 1920, six years after the great Time of Trouble began. It would not be strange if this were so, when we recall that after forty years wandering in the wilderness the Israelites came into possession of the land of Canaan after a further six years. As these matters are still future we can but wait to see. We anticipate that the “earthquake” will occur early in 1918, and that the “fire” will come in the fall of 1920. [The Finished Mystery, 1917, p. 178, Comments on Revelation 11:13. [The 1926 ed. reads: "and that the 'fire' will follow in due course."])

    1917 “And the mountains were not found. Even the republics will disappear in the fall of 1920. And the mountains were not found. Every kingdom of earth will pass away, be swallowed up in anarchy.” (The Finished Mystery, 1917 edition, p. 258)

    1917 Pastor Russell’s mission, in large part, was to advise Christendom of its impending end, in the time of world-wide trouble. It is the Divine judgment upon the nations. … There will be no chance of escaping from destruction, through the nations. … The trouble is due to the dawning of the Day of Christ, the Millennium. It is the Day of Vengeance, which began in the world war of 1914 and which will break like a furious morning storm in 1918.” (The Finished Mystery, 1917, p. 404)

    1917 “Until 1878 the nominal church had been in a sense God’s sanctuary or temple; but He was from then on, culminating in 1918, to remove it with a stroke or plague of erroneous doctrines and deeds Divinely permitted. The Church was the strength of Christendom, that about which its life centered, and around which its institutions were built. It was the desire of the eyes of the people, that which all Christians loved. Nevertheless, God was to make manifest the profanation which ecclesiasticism had made of the Christian Church, and to cause the church organizations to become to Him as one dead, an unclean thing, not to be touched, or mourned. And the ‘children of the church’ shall perish by the sword of war, revolution and anarchy, and by the Sword of the Spirit be made to see that they have lost their hope of life on the spirit plane — that ‘the door is shut.”‘ (Studies in the Scriptures, vol. 7, 1917 p. 484.)

    1917 Also, in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches wholesale and the church members by million, it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of Pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of Christianity. (The Finished Mystery, 1917 edition, p. 485)

    1917 As the fleshly-minded apostates from Christianity, siding with the radicals and revolutionaries, will rejoice at the inheritance of desolation that will be Christendom’s after 1918, so will God do to the successful revolutionary movement; it shall be utterly desolated, “even all of it.” Not one vestige of it shall survive the ravages of world-wide all embracing anarchy, in the fall of 1920. (Rev. II: 7-13) (The Finished Mystery, 1917, p. 542, [The 1926 ed. reads: "in the end of the time of trouble."])

    1917 This vision of the prophet Ezekiel depicts the established theocratic Kingdom of God on earth, civil and religious, spiritual and earthly. . . . The Temple . . . is a type and symbol of “better things to come,” after the wars, revolutions and anarchy of the period from 1914 to 1925 have passed. (The Finished Mystery, 1917, p. 569 [The 1926 ed. reads: "of the time of trouble have passed."])

    1918 “Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection.” (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, p. 89)

    1920 ‘…we may expect 1925 to witness the return of these faithful men of Israel from the condition of death, being resurrected’ (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, p. 88)

    1920 ‘…we may expect 1925 to witness the return of these faithful men of Israel from the condition of death, being resurrected’ (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, p. 88)

    1920 “A simple calculation of these jubilees brings us to this important fact: Seventy jubilees of fifty years each would be a total of 3500 years. That period of time beginning 1575 before A.D. 1 of necessity would end in the fall of 1925, at which time the type ends and the great antitype must begin. What, then, should we expect to take palace? In the type there must be a full restoration; beginning of restoration of all things. The chief thing to be restored is the human race to life; and since other Scriptures definitely fix the fact that there will be a resurrection of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and other faithful ones of old, and that these will have the first favor, we may expect 1925 to witness the return of these faithful men and Israel from the condition of death, being resurrected and fully restored to perfect humanity and made the visible, legal representatives of the new order of things on earth. (Millions now living will never die, 1920 p 89-90)

    1920 ‘Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old’ (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, p. 89-90)

    1920 “Based upon the argument heretofore set forth, then, that the old order of things, the old world, is ending and is therefore passing away, and that the new order is coming in, and that 1925 shall mark the resurrection of the faithful worthies of old and the beginning of reconstruction, it is reasonable to conclude that millions of people now on the earth will be still on the earth in 1925. Then, based upon the promises set forth in the divine Word, we must reach the positive and indisputable conclusion that millions now living will never die.” (Millions Now Living Will Never Die. 1920 p. 97)

    1921 “‘The time of the end’ embraces a period from 1799 A.D., as above indicated, to the time of the complete overthrow of Satan’s empire and the establishment of the kingdom of the Messiah. The time of the Lord’s second presence dates from 1874, as above stated. The latter period is within the first named, of course, and in the latter part of the period known as “the time of the end.” (The Harp of God, 1921 p. 236)

    1921 “In Biblical symbology a time means a year of twelve months of thirty days each, or 360 days. Each day is considered for a year… Here are mentioned, then, three and a half times of 360 prophetic days each, or a total of 1260 prophetic days, equal to 1260 years. The Prophet then was shown that 1260 years would mark the beginning of the time of the end of this beastly order. Twelve-hundred sixty years from A.D. 539 brings us to 1799 — another proof that 1799 marks the beginning of the ‘time of the end.’ This also shows that it is from the date 539 A.D. that the other prophetic days of Daniel must be counted.” … “The most important thing to which all the prophecies point and for which the apostles looked forward has been the second coming of the Lord. It is described by the Prophet as a blessed time. Daniel then says: ‘Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.’ (Daniel 12:12). The watchers here, without question are those who were instructed by the Lord to watch for his return. This date, therefore, when understood, would certainly fix the time when the Lord is due at his second appearing. Applying the same rule, then, of a day for a year, 1335 days after 539 A.D. brings us to A.D. 1874, at which time, according to Biblical chronology, the Lord’s second presence is due. If this calculation is correct, from that time forward we ought to be able to find some evidences marking the Lord’s presence.” (Harp of God, 1921, pp. 229-230.)

    1921 “The natural harvest was used by the Lord to illustrate his harvest of Christians. In the Jewish natural harvest it was customary to glean the field after the regular harvest was over. We should therefore expect to find a harvest period from 1878 to 1918, and thereafter for a time a gleaning work to be done, which we will indicate. The question now is, Do we find a period of harvest in the gospel age after 1874 which serves as a fulfillment of the prophecy of the Lord?” (Studies in the Scriptures, Volume 7 1921, p. 236.)

    1921 “The same year, 1881, is prophetically marked as the time for the final withdrawal of favor from the churches, a favor which had begun to be withdrawn in 1878 — the year in which the clergy were cast off as representatives of the Divine Word, and when Pastor Russell began his work by the publication of 50,000 copies of Object and Manner of the Lord’s Return. In 1878 the stewardship of the things of God, the teaching of Bible truths, was taken from the clergy, unfaithful to their age long stewardship, and given to Pastor Russell. In the interim, until 1881, the new steward was setting the things in order, getting the truths of the Bible in logical and Scriptural form for presentation, until the last great item of the Hebrew tabernacle types, was ready. Then, in 1881, he became God’s watchman for all Christendom, and began his gigantic work of Witness.” (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 7, pp. 386-387 1921)

    1921 “The Scriptures disclose a complete parallel concerning the Jewish and gospel ages. The parallel exists with reference to time as well as events. The Jewish age ended with a harvest, which harvest began with the ascension of our Lord in the year A.D. 33. By the term ‘harvest’ here used is meant the gathering of the remnant of the Jews to Christ. Jesus’ statement plainly is that the gospel age will end with a harvest, during which time he would be present, directing the work of that harvest. In the earth three and a half years from the time of his consecration and baptism, Jesus was preparing the Jews for the harvest of that age. We should expect to find a parallel of this reference to the harvest of the gospel age, and we do find it. Counting three and a half years from 1874, the time of his presence, brings us to 1878. During the presence of the Lord from 1874 to 1878 he was making preparation for the harvest of the gospel age. The Jewish harvest covered a period of forty years, ending in A.D. 73. We should expect, then, the general harvest of the gospel age to end in 1918.” (Harp of God, 1921, pp. 235-236, 1921)

    1922 “The period must end in 1925. The type ending, the antitype must begin; and therefore 1925 is definitely fixed in the scriptures. every thinking person can see that a great climax is at hand. The Scriptures clearly indicate that the climax is the fall of Satan’s empire and the full establishment of the Messianic kingdom. This climax being reached by 1925, and that marking the beginning of the fulfillment of the long promised blessings of life to the people, millions now living on earth will be living then and those who obey the righteous laws of the new arrangement will live forever. Therefore it can be confidently said at this time that millions now living will never die.” (Golden Age, Jan. 4, 1922, p. 217)

    1922 “The indisputable facts, therefore, show that the “time of the end” began in 1799; that the Lord’s second presence began in 1874.” (The Watchtower, March 1, 1922)

    1922 “We have no doubt whatever in regard to the chronology relating to the dates of 1874, 1914, 1918, and 1925. It was on this line of reckoning that the dates 1874, 1914, and 1918 were located; and the Lord has placed the stamp of his seal upon 1914 and 1918 beyond any possibility of erasure. What further evidence do we need? Using this same measuring line…. it is an easy matter to locate 1925, probably in the fall, for the beginning of the antitypical jubilee. There can be no more question about 1925 than there was about 1914.” (Watchtower, p. 150, May 15, 1922)

    1922 “It is on the basis of such and so many correspondencies — in accordance with the soundest laws known to science- that we affirm that, Scripturally, scientifically, and historically, present-truth chronology is correct beyond a doubt. Its reliability has been abundantly confirmed by the dates and events of 1874, 1914, and 1918. Present-truth chronology is a secure basis on which the consecrated child of God may endeavor to search out things to come.” (Watchtower, June 15 1922)

    1922 “This chronology is not of man, but of God. Being of divine origin and divinely corroborated, present-truth chronology stands in a class by itself, absolutely and unqualifiedly correct….” (Watchtower, July 15, 1922 p. 217)

    1922 ‘1914 ended the Gentile Times…The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures…by then the great crisis will be reached and probably passed’ (Watchtower Sept. 1, 1922, p. 262)

    1923 ‘1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures…the Christian has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had (so far as the Scriptures reveal) upon which to base his faith in the coming deluge’ (Watchtower April 1, 1923, p. 106)

    1923 “Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge.” (Watchtower, p. 106, March 1, 1923)

    1924 “No doubt many boys and girls who read this book will live to see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Daniel, and those other men of old come forth in the glory of their better resurrection, of perfect in mind and body. It will not take long for Christ to appoint them to their post of honor and authority as his earthly representatives. The world and all the present conveniences will seen strange to them at first, but they will soon become accustomed to the new methods. They may have some amusing experiences at first; for they never saw telephones, radios, automobiles, electric lights, aeroplanes, steam engines, and many other things so familiar to us. (The Way To Paradise, 1924, p. 226)

    1924 “Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt in the mind of a truly consecrated child of God that the Lord Jesus is present and has been since 1874.” (Watchtower, Jan. 1, 1924, p5)

    1924 “The year 1925 is a date definitely and clearly marked in Scriptures, even more clearly than that of 1914. (Watchtower 1924, p. 211)

    1924 “We cannot be blamed for presenting from the Scriptures such evidence as they afford which leads us to believe that a certain event will take place at a given time. Some times the Lord has let His people looking for the right thing at the wrong time, and more frequently they have looked for the wrong things at the right time. But all the enemies of the cause of present truth in the earth are fervently hoping that the Bible students will not be so successful in 1925 in looking for the right thing at the right time as they were in 1914. if they are, however, it will be the other fellow that will have to do the explaining, and not we.” (The Golden Age, Feb. 13, 1924, p. 314)

    1925 “It is to be expected that Satan will try to inject into the minds of the consecrated, the thought that 1925 should see an end to the work.” (Watchtower, Sept. 1925, p. 262)

    1925 “The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason; and that when their imaginations burst asunder, they were inclined to throw away everything.” (Watchtower 1925, p. 56)

    1925 “The year 1925 is here. With great expectation Christians have looked forward to this year. Many have confidently expected that all members of the body of Christ will be changed to heavenly glory during this year. This may be accomplished. It may not be. In his own due time God will accomplish his purposes concerning his people. Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year.” (Watchtower, Jan. 1, 1925, p. 3)

    1926 “Some anticipated that the work would end in 1925, but the Lord did not state so. The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason; and that when their imaginations burst asunder, they were inclined to throw away everything.” (Watchtower 1926 p. 232.)

    1927 The Scriptural proof is that the period of his presence and the day of God’s preparation is a period from 1874 A.D. forward. The second coming of the Lord, therefore, began in 1874; and that date and the years 1914 and 1918 are specially marked dates with reference to his coming. (Creation; 1927; p. 289 early editions, p310 later editions)

    1927 Prophecy can not be understood until it has been fulfilled or is in the course of fulfillment. From 1874 to 1914 the prophecy concerning the Lord’s coming was being fulfilled and could be understood, and was understood, by those who were faithful to the Lord and who were watching the development of events, but not by others. (Creation; 1927; p. 290)

    1927 “Napoleon began this Egyptian campaign in 1798, finished it, and then returned to France on October 1, 1799. The campaign is briefly , yet graphically described in the prophecy, verses 40-44; and its being completed in 1799 marks, according to the prophet’s own words, the beginning of “the time of the end.” (Creation; 1927; p. 293)

    1927 “Twelve hundred and sixty years from 539 A.D. brings us to 1799, which is another proof that 1799 definitely marks the beginning of “the time of the end.” this also shows that it is from the date 539 A.D. that the other prophetic days of Daniel must be counted.” (Creation; 1927, p. 294)

    1927 Applying the same rule then, of a day for a year, 1335 days after 539 A.D. brings us to 1874 A.D. at which time, according to Biblical chronology, the Lord’s second presence was due. (Creation; 1927; p. 298)

    1928 “The time of the Lord’s second presence dates from 1874, as above stated.” (The Harp of God p. 236, 1928 edition!)

    1929 “Both the grantor and the grantee are fully persuaded from the Bible testimony which is the word of Jehovah God and from extraneous evidence that God’s Kingdom is now in the course of establishment and that it will result beneficially for the peoples of earth; that the governing power and authority will be invisible to men but that the kingdom of God will have visible representatives on the earth who will have charge of the affairs of the nations under supervision of the invisible ruler, Christ. That among those who will be thus the faithful representatives and visible governors of the world will be David, who was once King over Israel; and Gideon, and Barak, and Samson, and Jepthai, and Joseph, formerly ruler of Egypt, and Samuel the prophet and other faithful men named with approval in the Bible at Hebrews 11th. chapter.” (Original legal deed to Beth Sarim, Rutherford, 1929)

    1929 ‘If these prophesies have not been fulfilled, and if all possibility of fulfilment is past, then these prophets are proven false.’ (Prophecy, 1929, p 22)

    1929 “The Scriptural proof is that the second presence of the Lord Jesus Christ began in 1874 A.D.” (Prophecy, 1929, p. 65)

    1929 Many of such had been looking for the Lord to come and take them to heaven, and had particularly fixed the year 1914 as when this should be done. The year 1914 was a marked date; but these had merely contemplated something to happen which did not come to pass. (Prophecy; 1929; 1,589,000 ed.; p. 89)

    1930 “But how will you identify King David or any of the other representatives from God?’ Rutherford was asked. ‘I thought all that out before I wrote the deed,’ the judge replied with a twinkle in his gray eyes. ‘I realized the possibility of some old codger turning up bright and early some morning and declaring he was David. The men whom I have designated to test the identity of these men are officers of my societies and have consecrated themselves to the Lord, they will be divinely authorized to know impostors from the real princes.”‘ (The San Diego Sun, Saturday, March 15, 1930)

    1930 Judge Joseph Frederick Rutherford 60, lives in a ten room Spanish mansion, No 4440 Braeburn Rd, San Diego, Calif. Last week he deeded No 4440 Braeburn Road, and adjacent two car garage and a pair of automobiles to King David, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthae, Samuel and sundry other mighties of ancient Palestine. Positive is he that they are shortly to reappear on earth, Said he: ‘I have purposely landscaped the place with palm and olive trees so that these princes of the universe will feel at home.. (Time Magazine, March 31, 1930)

    1930 “The Watchtower, and its companion publications of the society, for forty years emphasized that fact that 1914 would witness the establishment of God’s kingdom and the complete glorification of the church. During that period of forty years God’s people on earth were carrying on a witness work, which work was foreshadowed by Elijah and John the Baptist. all of the lords people looked forward to 1914 with joyful expectation. when that time came and passed there was much disappointment, chagrin and mourning, and the lords people were greatly in reproach. they were ridiculed by the clergy and their allies in particular, and pointed to with scorn, because they had said so much about 1914, and what would come to pass, and their prophecies had not been fulfilled. (Light, Book 1, 1930, p. 194)

    1930 “The great climax is at hand. The kings of earth now set themselves against his anointed Stone.” (J.F. Rutherford, Light, II, 1930 p. 327)

    1931 “God’s faithful people on earth emphasized the importance of the dates 1914 and 1918 and 1925. They had much to say about these dates and what would come to pass, but all they predicted did not come to pass.” (Vindication, vol. 1, 1931, p. 146)

    1931 “God’s kingdom has begun to operate. His day of vengeance is here and Armageddon is at hand and certain to fall upon Christendom and that within an early date. God’s judgment is upon Christendom and must shortly be executed.” (J. F. Rutherford, Vindication, Vol. I, p. 147, 1931)

    1931 “There was a measure of disappointment on the part of Jehovah’s faithful ones on earth concerning the years 1914, 1918 and 1925, which disappointment lasted for a time. Later the faithful learned that these dates were definitely fixed in the Scriptures; and they also learned to quit fixing dates for the future and predicting what would come to pass on a certain date, but to rely (and they do rely) upon the Word of God as to the events that must come to pass. (J. F. Rutherford, Vindication, 1931, p. 338-339)

    1931 A gaunt unshaven tramp has been the lone claimant for the $75,000 Southern Californian mansion of David, king of Israel, since it was deeded to the Biblical character a year ago. This was revealed today by Judge James Rutherford, temporary owner of the luxuriantly furnished Spanish type mansion at 440 Braeburn Rd in the exclusive Kensington Heights district. In one of the oddest deeds ever recorded, Rutherford, president of the International Bible Students Association and the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, has placed in trust the magnificent estate for ancient kings and prophets of Israel The slayer of Goliath and his companions may occupy the 10 room modern home with it’s landscaped gardens and patio as soon as their credentials are approved by Rutherford and officials of his societies, divinely authorised to recognise them. One morning as I was going from the house to the garage, a looking creature approached me, tipped his dirty hat and cried ‘Howdy Judge, I’m David’ ‘Go and tell that to the winds’, I told him and he left without arguing the matter. I could see at a glance that he was not David. He didn’t look like I knew David would look.’ Asked how he expected David and his distinguished brethren to look, Rutherford, without hesitation, opened his huge Bible and pointed to a verse which said that the Princes of the Universe would be risen from the dead ‘as perfect men’. ‘I interpret that to mean’, the tall dignified Judge declared, ‘that David, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jepthae, Joseph and Samuel will be sent here to wrench the world from Satan’s grasp, clothed in modern garb as we are, and able, with little effort, to speak our tongue.’ Rutherford pictured the arrival of the biblical delegation perhaps in frock coats, high hats, canes and spats. At Beth Sarim (House of Princes) as Rutherford has named his mansion, David will find the most modern appliances that science has devised. When the distinguished guests walk up the circular stairway to the second floor, they will find a large office with red leather chairs and shiny flat topped desk with inverted lighting. Even French telephones await the touch of the princes. Opening a wide door, the native sons of Palestine will behold a large bathroom, resplendent in shiny black tile with needle shower and an amply filled medicine chest. What a thrill giant shouldered Samson, who wrecked a palace with his bare fists might find in the gold safety razor and strop! Rutherford built the second floor bedroom, which he temporarily occupies, large in order to accommodate several of the expected owners. With wide pane windows that look out on the purple Cuyamacas to the East and California’s first mission to the north, the bedroom is almost severe in it’s furnishings. The rulers of the universe will have simple tastes, the judge apparently believes, although the austere end tables sported gaily covered fiction magazines. Rutherford has imported some Koniach, Wasser from Cologne, Germany to freshen the princely faces after shaving. A black skull cap hangs over one of the bedposts. The coming of David and his companions will be the greatest news story of the ages, Rutherford predicted. ‘I am not a publicity seeker,’ Rutherford said with a twinkle in his kindly brown eyes, ‘but I feel that the world should know about their arrival. It will be a great news story.’ Word of his ‘House of king David’ has reached into every corner of the world, the judge stated. ‘Everywhere I went people asked me about this place,’ Rutherford said. ‘In Chicago a millionaire manufacturer offered to build another house for David, but I declined the offer. ‘Literally thousands have driven here to see this place,’ Rutherford continued. ‘Many have come to the door and my secretary has shown them about the place.’ The patio with it’s silver pool and olive and palm trees is gay with flowers. Down toward the canyon, paths have been landscaped to allow David and his friends to walk in meditation. Many of the fruits and trees, native to their Palestine, will greet the rulers when they arrive. In the two car garage next door stands a new, yellow 16 cylinder coupe which will be turned over to the rulers along with all the personal property on the place. ‘Everything will be theirs, the house, the land, the furnishings and even the clothes if they need them,’ Judge Rutherford said. ‘What will I do? Oh, don’t worry about me. I’ll manage somehow.’ the judge smiled. He had another ‘Watch Tower’ residence on Staten Island and practically an entire floor at Bethel. The seven famous men will not have long to rest at their San Deigo estate because they soon will lead the forces of the Lord to vanquish the minions of Satan at the battle of Armageddon, Rutherford believed. ‘But they will win out. The Lord will punish the devil and will show that the preachers and the politicians have been giving the people false counsel,’ Rutherford said confidently. Rutherford will sail May 9 for Europe where he will speak before conventions in Berlin Paris and London. (San Deigo Sun Newspaper report, Jan. 9, 1931)

    1935 “…the scriptural evidence and the physical facts strongly indicate that such witness work is now almost done; and when it is done the universal war will begin. Universal war is absolutely certain to come and that soon, and no power can stop it. …during the few remaining months until the breaking of that universal cataclysm the powers that rule the nations of the earth will continue to make treaties and tell the people that by such means they will keep that world peace and bring about prosperity. (Universal War Near, 1935, p. 3, 26-27)

    1938 “…mark the words of Jesus, which definitely seem to discourage the bearing of children immediately before or during Armageddon….It would therefore appear that there is no reasonable or scriptural injunction to bring children into the world immediately before Armageddon, where we now are.” (Watchtower, Nov. 1, 1938, p. 324)

    1938 “They had preached that in an early time God would overthrow “Christendom”. Many had emphasized the year 1925 as the date, and then when that date did not materialize the date was moved up to 1932. Again, 1932 came and ”Christendom” was not destroyed, and now it was discovered that “Christendom” would be spared for a while longer for the sake of the Jonadab class, and this made the proud “elective elder” crowd very mad.” (Watchtower Feb. 15, 1938 p. 54)

    1938 “Would it be scripturally proper for them to marry and begin to rear children? No, is the answer, which is supported by the scriptures….I will be far better to be unhampered and without burdens, that they may do the Lords will now, as the Lord commands, and also be without hindrance during Armageddon. … Those… who now contemplate marriage, it would seem, would do better if they wait a few years, until the fiery storm of Armageddon is gone.” (Face the Facts, 1938, p. 46, 47, 50)

    1938 As far back as 1880 The Watchtower pointed to A.D. 1914 as the date marking the end of the world, at which time great trouble would come upon the nations; but at that time it was not seen by God’s people on earth that the trouble would be the battle of Jehovah against Satan’s organization. For many years it was believed by them, and so stated in The Watchtower, that “the time of trouble” would be a terrific clash between the various elements of the earth, such as capital and labor. Not until 1925 was “the time of trouble” Scripturally understood.” (Watchtower, p. 35, Feb 1, 1938)

    1939 “The abundance of Scriptural evidence, together with the physical facts that have come to sass showing the fulfillment of prophecy, conclusively proves that the time for the battle of the great day of God Almighty is very near and that in that battle all of God’s enemies shall be destroyed and the earth cleared of wickedness.” … “Likewise today, all the nations and peoples of earth are face to face with the greatest emergency. They are being warned as God commands, that the disaster of Armageddon is just ahead.” (J. F. Rutherford, Salvation, 1939, p. 310, 361)

    1939 At San Deigo, California, there is a small piece of land, on which, in the year 1929 there was built a house, which is called and known as Beth Sarim. The Hebrew words Beth Sarim mean ‘House of the Princes'; and the purpose of acquiring that property and building the house was that there are those on earth today who fully believe in God and Christ Jesus and in His Kingdom, and who believe that the faithful men of old will soon be resurrected by the Lord, be back on earth, and take charge of the visible affairs of earth. The title to Beth Sarim is vested in the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society in trust, to be used by the president of the Society and his assistants for the present, and thereafter to be forever at the disposal of the aforementioned princes on the earth…. It stands there as a testimony to Jehovah’s name; and when the princes do return, and some of them occupy the property, such will be a confirmation of the faith and hope that induced the building of Beth Sarim. (Salvation, 1939, p. 311)

    1940 “The year 1940 is certain to be the most important year yet because Armageddon is very near. It behooves all who love righteousness to put forth every effort to advertise The Theocracy while the privileges are still open.” (Informant, April, 1940, p. 1)

    1940 The Kingdom is here, the King is enthroned. Armageddon is just ahead. The glorious reign of Christ that shall bring blessings to the world will immediately follow. Therefore the great climax has been reached. Tribulation has fallen upon those who stand by the Lord. (The Messenger, Sept. 1940, p. 6)

    1940 The prophecies of Almighty God, the fulfillment of which now clearly appears from the physical facts, show that the end of religion has come and with its end the complete downfall of Satan’s entire organization.” (Religion, J. F. Rutherford, p. 336, 1940)

    1940 The witness work for The Theocracy appears to be about done in most of the countries of “Christendom. … Now the totalitarian rule has suppressed the Theocratic message, and it should be expected that when they quit fighting amongst themselves all the totalitarian rulers will turn their attention to the complete suppression of everything pertaining to the Theocratic Government. What, then, does it mean that the Theocratic Government is now suppressed in many nations? It means that the hour is rapidly approaching when the “sign” of Armageddon will be clearly revealed and all who are on the side of Jehovah will see and appreciate it..” (Watchtower, Sept. 1, 1940, p. 265. [White, p. 335 quotes from the 1942 Yearbook (p. 29), completed by Rutherford just before his death: "The record as herewith published would, on the face of it, show that the Theocratic witness work on earth is about done."])

    1941 “Armageddon is surely near, and during that time the Lord will clean off the earth everything that offends and is disagreeable. … From now on we shall have our heart devotion fixed on The Theocracy, knowing that soon we shall journey forever together in the earth. Our hope is that within a few years our marriage may be consummated and, by the Lord’s grace, we shall have sweet children that will be an honor to the Lord. We can well defer our marriage until lasting peace comes to the earth.” (J. F. Rutherford, Children, 1941, p.366)

    1941 “Receiving the gift, [Rutherford's book, Children] the marching children clasped it to them, not a toy or plaything for idle pleasure, but the Lord’s provided instrument for most effective work in the remaining months before Armageddon.” (Watchtower Sept. 15, 1941, p. 288)

    1942 “Now, with Armageddon immediately before us, it is a matter of life or destruction. Those who would be of the Lords other sheep that shall compose the great multitude of Armageddon survivors and live joyfully on earth forever must find the answer to a very personal question, and very important.” (Watchtower, April 1, 1942, p. 139)

    1942 “The New World Is At The Doors…The time is short. Those who do not inform themselves and who do not now choose the new world which Higher Powers shall establish will never live to enter into blessings and glories.” (The New World, 1942, p. 10)

    1942 “The Lord Jesus has now come to the temple for judgment, and the remnant of the members of ‘his body’ yet on earth he has gathered into the temple condition of perfect unity with himself (Malachi 3:1-3), and hence those faithful men of old may be expected back from the dead any day now. The Scriptures give good reason to believe that it shall be shortly before Armageddon breaks. In this expectation the house at San Diego, California, which house has been much publicized with malicious intent by the religious enemy, was built, in 1930, and named ‘Beth Sarim,’ meaning ‘House of Princes.’ It is now held in trust for the occupancy of those princes on their return. The most recent facts show that the religionists of this doomed world are gnashing their teeth because of the testimony which that ‘House of Princes’ hears to the new world. To those religionists and their allies the return of those faithful men of old to rule with judgment over the people shall not bring any pleasure. But to the people whom the angels sang about, ‘men of good will,’ it shall be an occasion for unbounded jubilation, and they shall rally to the side of those princely representatives of the kingdom of heaven.” (The New World, pp. 104-105, 1942)

    1942 Such activity in publishing God’s kingdom and clearing his name of the Devil’s reproaches by religion was mistakenly given a place secondary to the making of the bride of Christ class ready for the marriage with him in heaven, in 1914 as some thought. (The New World; 1942; 2,000,000 ed.; p. 273-274)

    1942 Before the Lord’s Messenger came to the temple and began interpreting God’s will and teaching, the Job class had been darkening counsel by words without knowledge, it not then being due time for the disclosure of such knowledge. Some of the consecrated ones thought they must be taken home to heaven at a time certain in order to help God run the universe. (The New World; 1942; 2,000,000 ed.; p. 308)

    1942 “The faithful acts of the men who were known as fathers in Israel are recounted in the eleventh chapter of Hebrews. Genesis 12:1-3; 28:13,14; Acts 7:2-5….These men will be the visible representatives of the Theocracy, which is the government created and built up by the almighty God as his capital organization and which shall rule the world. Further proof that these princes will shortly take office upon earth as perfect men is found in the prophecy of Daniel. But go thou thy way till the end be; for thou shalt rest and stand in thy lot at the end of the days. (Daniel 12:13) Daniel’s lot is that of these princes. Proof is now submitted that we are now living at the end of the days, and we may expect to see Daniel and the other mentioned princes any day now!” (Consolation, April 27, 1942, p. 13, brackets in the original)

    1943 “Man cannot by airplane or rockets or other means get above the air envelope which is about our earthly globe…”(The Truth Shall Make you Free, p. 285, 1943 edition)

    1943 “The final war will come as a most sudden and complete surprise…Nevertheless, the appearing of the ‘desolating abomination in the holy place’ is an unerring proof that the unknown day and hour of the beginning of the final war is dangerously near.” (The Truth Shall Make You Free, 1943, p. 341)

    1944 [The establishment of the United Nations was seen] “as one of the most positive evidences that ‘the kingdom of heaven is at hand’ and that the end of the world arrangement is now near. Jesus foretold the setting up of that anti-Christ organization.” (The Kingdom Is at Hand, 1944, p. 342)

    1946 “the disaster of Armageddon, greater than that which befell Sodom and Gomorrah, is at the door.” (Let God Be True, 1946, p. 194)

    1951 “Under the guidance of God’s spirit of freedom the magazine today known as the Watchtower but known back there as Zion’s Watch Tower, began to be published in July, 1879. In the first year of its publication it pointed to the date 1914 as marked in the Bible.” (What Has Religion Done For Mankind?; 1951; p. 308)

    1953 “After almost six thousand years of human sorrow, suffering and death, at last permanent relief is near at hand and will be realized within this generation.” (New Heavens And A New Earth; 1953; p. 7)

    1955 “in the light of the fulfillment of Bible prophecy it is becoming clear that the war of Armageddon is nearing its breaking-out point.” (You may survive Armageddon into God’s new world, 1955, p 331)

    1955 “The very fact that, as part of Jehovah’s secret, no one today is able to find out how much time Adam and later Eve lived during the closing days of the sixth creative period, so no one can now determine when six thousand years of Jehovah’s present rest day come to an end. Obviously, whatever amount of Adam’s 930 years was lived before the beginning of that seventh-day rest of Jehovah, that unknown amount would have to be added to the 1976 date.” (Watchtower, February 1, 1955, p. 95)

    1961 Like Elijah of old, they became quite disconsolate, uncertain of life, thinking the end of existence and work was at hand. This was especially the case since the remnant was part of the virgin class espoused to Christ as his Bride and she failed to realize her hopes of being glorified to heavenly life with him both in 1914 and now in 1918. (Let Your Name Be Sanctified; 1961; p. 313)

    1963 “Of what significance is this today? It means that by the fall of 1963 mankind has dwelt upon this earth 5,988 years. Does this mean, then, that by 1963 we had progressed 5,988 years into the ‘day’ on which Jehovah ‘has been resting from all his work’? (Gen. 2:3) No, for the creation of Adam does not correspond with the beginning of Jehovah’s rest day. Following Adam’s creation, and still within the sixth creative day, Jehovah appears to have been forming further animal and bird creations. Also, he had Adam name the animals, which would take some time, and he proceeded to create Eve. (Gen. 2:18-22; see also NW, 1953 Ed., footnote on Vs. 19) Whatever time elapsed between Adam’s creation and the end of the ‘sixth day’ must be subtracted from the 5,988 years in order to give the actual length of time from the beginning of the ‘seventh day’ until now. It does no good to use Bible chronology for speculating on dates that are still future in the stream of time.” (All Scripture is inspired of God and Beneficial, 1963, page 286)

    1966 “According to this trustworthy Bible chronology six thousand years from man’s creation will end in 1975, and the seventh period of a thousand years of human history will begin in the fall of 1975 C.E Six thousand years of man’s existence on earth will soon be up, yea within this generation. The rein of Christ…to run parallel with the 7th millennium …” (Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God, 1966, p. 29-30)

    1966 “Discussion of 1975 overshadowed about everything else. ‘The new book compels us to realise that Armageddon is, in fact, very close indeed,’ said a conventioneer.” (Watchtower 15/10/1966, p 629)

    1966 “In this twentieth century an independent study has been carried on that does not blindly follow some traditional chronological calculations of Christendom, and the published timetable resulting from this independent study gives the date of man’s creation as 4026 B.C.E. So six thousand years of man’s existence on earth will soon be up, yes, within this generation.” (Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God, p29, 1966 [Note: 4026 BC to 1975AD = 6000 years])

    1967 “Just think, 1975 marks the end of 6,000 years of human experience…..Will it be the time when God executes the wicked?….It very well could be, but we will have to wait to see.’ (Watchtower, 1/5/1967, p 262)

    1968 “The immediate future is certain to be filled with climatic events, for this old system is nearing its complete end. Within a few years at most the final parts of Bible prophecy relative to these last days will undergo fulfilment resulting in the liberation of surviving mankind into Christ’s glorious 1000 year reign!” (Watchtower, 1/5/1968)

    1968 Eight years from the Autumn of 1967 would bring us to the Autumn of 1975, fully 6,000 years into God’s seventh day, his rest day. (Watchtower May 1, 1968 p. 271)

    1968 “Why Are You Looking Forward To 1975?” … “What about all this talk concerning the year 1975? Lively discussions, some based on speculation, have burst into flame during recent months among serious students of the Bible. Their interest has been kindled by the belief that 1975 will mark the end of 6,000 years of human history since Adam’s creation. The nearness of such an important date indeed fires the imagination and presents unlimited possibilities for discussion.” (Watchtower, Aug. 15, 1968, p. 494)

    1968 “‘Adam Created At Close Of ‘Sixth Day’ Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then ? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man’s existence coincides with the Sabbath-like thousand-year reign of Christ….It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years.’ (Watchtower, Aug. 15, 1968, p499)

    1968 “I know enough of what is going on to assure you that, in fifteen years from today, this world is going to be too dangerous to live in.” (Truth That Leads To Eternal Life, p 9, 1968 edition, Quoting USA Secretary of State Dean Acheson in 1960, [1981 edition deleted "in fifteen years from today" ie. in 1975])

    1968 “More recently, the book entitled “Famine-1975!” [by W. & P. Paddock, 1967, pp. 52,55,61.] said concerning today’s food shortages: “Hunger is rampant throughout country after country, continent after continent around the undeveloped belt of the tropics and subtropics. Today’s crisis can move in only one direction -toward catastrophe. Today hungry nations; tomorrow starving nations.” … “By 1975 civil disorder, anarchy, military dictatorships, runaway inflation, transportation breakdowns and chaotic unrest will be the order of the day in many of the hungry nations.” (The Truth That Leads To Eternal Life, p 88-89, 1968)

    1968 “1914 a marked year. Years in advance Bible Scholars realized that 1914 was to be a year of great significance. They expected great changes to take place, and the facts confirm that 1914 was, indeed, a marked year.” (The Truth That Leads To Eternal Life; 1968; 40,000,000 ed.; p. 91)

    1968 “The Bible speaks of the time in which we are living as the “last days” or the “time of the end.” (2 Timothy 3: 1; Daniel 11: 40) The facts show that this is a limited period that has a definite beginning and a definite end. It began in 1914 when Jesus Christ was enthroned as king in the heavens. It will end when God destroys this present wicked system of things. … How soon will that be? God’s own Son, Jesus Christ, gives the answer. After drawing attention to the many things that mark the period from 1914 onward as the “time of the end,” Jesus said: “This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” (Matthew 24:34) Which generation did he mean? Jesus had just referred to persons who would “see all these things.” “These things” are the events that have taken place since 1914 and those yet to occur down to the end of this wicked system. (Matthew 24:33) Persons born even as much as fifty years ago could not see “all these things.” They came on the scene after the foretold events were already under way. But there are people still living who were alive in 1914 and saw what was happening then and who were old enough that they still remember those events. This generation is getting up in years now. A great number of them have already passed away in death. Yet Jesus very pointedly said: ‘This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.’ Some of them will still be alive to see the end of this wicked system. This means that only a short time is left before the end comes!” (Truth That Leads To Eternal Life, p. 94, 1968)

    1968 “Just think, brothers, there are only about ninety months left before 6,000 years of mans existence on earth is completed… The majority of people living today will probably be alive when Armageddon breaks out, and there are no resurrection hopes for those who are destroyed then. So, now more than ever, it is vital not to ignore that spirit of wanting to do more.” (Kingdom Ministry, March 1968, p. 4 [note: 1968 + 90 months = 1975])

  8. 1968 “During world war 1, God’s people expected it to lead directly into Armageddon, but Jehovah prevented such a climax at that time. We didn’t succumb to such an expectation during world war II. (Kingdom Ministry, Jan. 1968, p. 5)

    1968 “But what about today? Today we have the evidence required, all of it. And it is overwhelming! All the many, many parts of the great sign of the last days are here, together with verifying Bible chronology.” (Awake!, Oct. 8, 1968, p. 23)

    1968 “True, there have been those in times past who predicted an “end” to the world, even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The ‘end’ did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? Missing from such people were God’s truths and the evidence that He was using and guiding them.” (Awake, Oct. 8, 1968)

    1969 “in view of the short time left, a decision to pursue a career in this system of things is not only unwise but extremely dangerous….Many young brothers and sisters were offered scholarship or employment that promised fine pay. However, they turned them down and put spiritual interests first.” (Kingdom Ministry, June 1969, p. 3)

    1969 “There is only a short time left before Jehovah will destroy this wicked system of things.” (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1969)

    1969 More recently earnest researchers of the Holy Bible have made a recheck of its chronology. According to their calculations the six millenniums of mankind’s life on earth would end in the mid-seventies. Thus the seventh millennium from mans creation by Jehovah god would begin within less than ten years. Apart from the global change that present-day world condition indicate is fast getting near, the arrival of the seventh millennium of mans existence on earth suggests a gladsome change for war-stricken humankind. …In order for the Lord Jesus Christ to be Lord even of the Sabbath day, his thousand-year reign would have to be the seventh in a series of thousand-year periods or millenniums. (Matt 12:8, AV) Thus it would be a sabbatic reign. Since early in the existence of mankind Satan the Devil has been on the loose, making the human family to toil in hard bondage, causing the earth to be filled with violence before the global flood of Noahs day and inducing the same old earth to be filled with even greater violence today. Soon now six millenniums of his wicked exploiting of mankind as his slaves will end, within the lifetime of the generation that has witnessed world events since the close of the gentile times in 1914 till now, according to the prophetic words of Jesus in Matthew 24:34. Would not, then, the end of six millenniums of mankind’s laborious enslavement under Satan the Devil be the fitting time for Jehovah God to usher in a Sabbath millennium for all his human creatures? Yes, indeed! And his King Jesus Christ will be Lord of that Sabbath.” (Watchtower, Nov. 15, 1969, p. 622, 623)

    1971 “Shortly, within our twentieth century, the “battle in the day of Jehovah” will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom.” (The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah; 1971; 2nd ed.; p. 216)

    1972 “Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a ‘prophet’ of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show?” (Watchtower April 1, 1972, p. 197)

    1972 “Does this admission of making mistakes stamp them [Watchtower] as false prophets? Not at all, for false prophets do not admit to making mistakes.” (Watchtower, Nov. 1, 1972, p. 644)

    1972 “If it is his purpose to have this beautification of the whole earth accomplished by the end of his seventh creative day – Scripturally a period of seven thousand years, then the time is near at hand for the ruining of the earth by exploiters to be stopped by theocratic power and the blessed transformation to a delightsome garden to begin. Already, nearly six thousand years of man’s existence from the close of the sixth creative day have run their dreary course. We must be approaching the threshold of that thousand-year-long reign of Jesus Christ, which must be accompanied by Paradise according to what Jesus promised the sympathetic evildoer on the stake there at Mount Calvary.” (Paradise Restored to Mankind – By Theocracy, 1972; p. 18)

    1974 “this remnant of anointed ones have identified themselves on the pages of history since 1914 C.E. Before this year members of this anointed remnant had been earnestly studying God’s Word apart from Christendom. They put the Holy Bible ahead of man-made religious traditions. As early as 1876 they were publishing that the Gentile Times of 2,520 years would terminate in the year 1914. Events that have taken place from that year onward prove they were not wrong.” (God’s “Eternal Purpose” Now Triumphing For Man’s Good; 1974; p. 178-179)

    1974 “Yes, the end of this system is so very near! Is that not reason to increase our activity?…Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world’s end.” (Kingdom Ministry, May 1974, p. 3)

    1974 ‘It also tells us that this millennium must be preceded immediately by the most destructive war in all human history. We can now see the political rulers… being gathered… for that War of all wars….’ (Watchtower, July 1, 1974, p 397)

    1975 “The year 1925 came and went. Jesus’ anointed followers were still on earth as a class. The faithful men of old time – Abraham, David and others – had not been resurrected to become princes in the earth. (Ps. 45:16) So, as Anna MacDonald recalls: ‘1925 was a sad year for many brothers. Some of them were stumbled; their hopes were dashed…Instead of it’s being considered a ‘probability,’ they read into it that it was a ‘certainty.’ and some prepared for their loved ones with expectations of their resurrection.” (Yearbook, 1975, p. 146)

    1975 In time, a direct contribution was made for the purpose of constructing a house in San Deigo for brother Rutherfords use.. Concerning this property the 1939 book Salvation stated: ‘At San Diego, California, there is a small piece of land, on which, in the year 1929, there was built a house, which is called and known as Beth Sarim. (Yearbook, 1975, p. 194)

    1975 “Does this mean, then, that mankind has now reached 6,000 years into the 7,000 year period that God blessed and made sacred as his rest day? … No, It does not mean that.” (Watchtower 1/10/1975 p. 579)

    1975 However, suddenly, there came an end to World War 1. It did not lead on, as Bible students expected, into world revolution and anarchy or the battle of Armageddon. And the sincere worshippers of Jehovah who were in the new covenant with him through his Mediator Jesus Christ, found themselves still in the flesh on the earth. (Man’s Salvation Out Of World Distress At Hand; 1975; p. 98)

    1975 Furthermore, the remnant of spiritual Israel had for decades, yes, since 1876, been looking forward to the ending of the Times of the Gentiles in the autumn of 1914. They were expecting God’s Messianic Kingdom to be fully established in the heavens by then and also for the remnant of spiritual Israel to be glorified with Jesus Christ in the heavenly kingdom at that time. All understanding of the Holy Scriptures was slanted in that direction or adjusted to that idea. And when the year 1914 ended amid the flames of World War 1 and the remnant of spiritual Israel found themselves still here on the earth, then they were inclined to think that they would be glorified in the year 1918, three and a half years after the end of the Gentile Times. (Man’s Salvation Out Of World Distress At Hand; 1975; p. 136)

    1975 this marked the beginning of a period of education in the written Word of God from the standpoint that Bible prophecy is best understood after it has been fulfilled. So there needed to be a correction of our previous views, and the surviving remnant of spiritual Israel needed to be readjusted to the postwar realities and opportunities. … This revised program of Bible education had a profound effect on the remnant. It oriented their work in the right direction. (Man’s Salvation Out Of World Distress At Hand; 1975; p. 191)

    1976 “It may be that some who have been serving God have planned their lives according to a mistaken view of just what was to happen on a certain date or in a certain year. They may have, for this reason, put off or neglected things that they otherwise would have cared for. But they have missed the point of the Bibles warnings concerning the end of this system of things, thinking that Bible chronology reveals the specific date.” (Watchtower, July 15, 1976, p. 440)

    1977 Truly the year 1926 deserved to be marked as the happy climax of the close of the 1,335 days. Those of Daniel’s “people” who kept in expectation and reached the end of the 1,335 days were launched off into a happiness that has not diminished, but that, despite mounting persecution and World War II (1939-1945) and subsequent world troubles, has persisted and increased. (Our Incoming World Government-God’s Kingdom, p146-147, 1977)

    1979 Because of this hope, the “faithful and discreet slave” has alerted all of God’s people to the sign of the times indicating the nearness of God’s Kingdom rule. In this regard, however, it must be observed that this “faithful and discreet slave” was never inspired, never perfect. Those writings by certain members of the “slave” class that came to form the Christian part of God’s Word were inspired and infallible, but that is not true of other writings since. Things published were not perfect in the days of Charles Taze Russell, first president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society; nor were they perfect in the days of J.F. Rutherford, the succeeding president. The increasing light on God’s Word as well as the facts of history have repeatedly required that adjustments of one kind or another be made down to the very present time. But let us never forget that the motives of this “slave” were always pure, unselfish; at all times it has been well-meaning. (The Watchtower; March 1, 1979; p. 24)

    1979 Partly because of eagerness to be alive when Jesus Christ reveals himself in glory, there have been believers throughout the centuries who began looking for a particular period or a year for the windup of the ungodly system of things. this has happened right down to these “last days.” Since certain expectations were not realized, many stumbled and returned to the ways of the world. In fulfillment of Peter’s words, even today we hear the voice of ridiculers. (2 Peter 3:3,4) (Choosing The Best Way Of Life; 1979; p. 169)

    1980 “With the appearance of the book Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God, and its comments as to how appropriate it would be for the millennial reign of Christ to parallel the seventh millennium of mans existence, considerable expectation was aroused regarding the year 1975. Unfortunately, however, along with such cautionary information, There were other statements published that implied that such realization of hopes by that year was more of a probability than a mere possibility. There were statements made then, and thereafter, stressing that this was only a possibility. It is to be regretted that these latter statements apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of the expectation already initiated….In saying anyone, the Watchtower included all disappointed ones of Jehovah’s Witnesses, hence including persons having to do with the publication of the information that contributed to the buildup of hopes centered on that date. (Watchtower, March 15, 1980, p. 17-18)

    1980 If the wicked system of this world survived until the turn of the century (the year 2000), which is highly improbable in view of world trends and the fulfillment of Bible prophecy, there would still be survivors of the World War I generation. However, the fact that their number is dwindling is one more indication that “the conclusion of the system of things” is moving fast toward its end. (The Watchtower, Oct. 15, 1980, p. 31)

    1982 “The Bible not only foretold these things, but indicated that they would occur on a worldwide scale. Also, the Bible said that all these things would happen upon the generation that was alive in 1914. Yet what were prominent world leaders foretelling just before 1914? They were saying that conditions promising world peace were never more favorable. Yet the terrible troubles the Bible foretold began right on time, in 1914! In fact, world leaders now say that 1914 was a turning point in history. After drawing attention to the many things that have marked the period from 1914 onward, Jesus said: ‘This generation will by no means pass away until all these things [including the end of this system] occur.’ (Matthew 24:34, 14) Which generation did Jesus mean? He meant the generation of people who were living in 1914. Those persons yet remaining of that generation are now very old. However, some of them will still be alive to see the end of this wicked system. So of this we can be certain: Shortly now there will be a sudden end to all wickedness and wicked people at Armageddon.” (You Can Live Forever In Paradise On Earth, p 154, 1982)

    1984 Some of that “generation (of 1914)” could survive until the end of the century. But there are many indications that “the end” is much closer than that! (The Watchtower, March 1, 1984 pp. 18-19)

    1984 “These definitions embrace both those born around the time of a historic event and all those alive at that time. If Jesus used ‘generation’ in that sense and we apply it to 1914, then the babies of that generation are now 70 years old or older. And others alive in 1914 are in their 80’s or 90’s, a few even having reached a hundred. There are still many millions of that generation alive. Some of them ‘will by no means pass away until all things occur.” (Watchtower, 15 May, 1984, p. 5)

    1986 As far back as 1876, Jehovah’ s Witnesses realized that Bible prophecy marked the year 1914 C.E. as a time when major events would take place that would have far-reaching effects on human affairs. They gave the reason for this fact wide publicity. (True Peace And Security; 1986; p. 70)

    1986 Prophetic information in the Bible about our day detail the following: … (4) The survival of at least some of the generation that saw the beginning of “the conclusion of the system of things.” (True Peace And Security; 1986; p. 70)

    1989 “The apostle Paul was spearheading the Christian missionary activity. He was also laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our 20th century.” (Watchtower, Jan. 1, 1989, p. 12 [bound volume changed "20th century" to "day"])

    1989 In the early part of our 20th century prior to 1919, the Bible Students, as Jehovah’s Witnesses were then known, had to be released from a form of spiritual captivity to the ideas and practices of false religion. Although having rejected such false teachings as the Trinity and immortal soul, they were still tainted by Babylonish practices. Many had developed a self-righteous attitude in character development. Some were exalting creatures, indulging in a personality cult that focused on Charles T. Russell, the first president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. Without any Biblical basis, they were observing birthdays and Christmas. the cross was still prominent in their thinking. Some even wore a cross-and-crown lapel emblem, while others sought the respectability accorded Christendom. (The Watchtower; May 1, 1989; p. 3)

    1989 “Back in 1904, the book The New Creation called attention to this new organization that came into existence in the first century C.E. (Studies In The Scriptures, Series VI, Study V, entitled “The Organization of the New Creation”) Owing to its view of what the end of the Gentile Times would mean, that book did not envision the remarkable organizational work that was due to take place after the crippling effects of the first world war of human history.” (The Watchtower; Sept. 1, 1989; p. 12-13)

    1989 “Some Roman Catholics have claimed that Jesus Christ’s thousand Year Reign ended in 1799 when French armies captured Rome and deposed the pope as its ruler, so that he was deported as a prisoner to France, where he died.” (Watchtower; Sept. 1, 1989; p. 12 [Jw's did too! See two 1927 Creation, quotes, p. 293 & p. 294. Another of the "pot calling the kettle black" quotes])

    1989 The preservation of the remnant of spiritual new creation to the end of World War 1 in 1918 and their being kept alive in the flesh in the postwar year of 1919 came as a wondrous surprise. (The Watchtower; Sept. 1, 1989; p. 13)

    1989 They have a modern Governing Body of older Christian men from various parts of the earth who give needed oversight to the worldwide activities of God’s people. these men, like the apostles and older men in Jerusalem in the first century, are anointed members of the faithful and discreet slave class designated by Jesus to care for all of his Kingdom interests here upon earth. History has proved that they can be trusted to follow the direction of the holy spirit and that they do not rely on human wisdom in teaching the flock of God the ways of genuine peace. (The Watchtower; Dec. 15, 1989; p. 6)

    1990 Adult Christians too can be disappointed, and this has in some cases led to spiritual disaster. Some set their hope on a date when they were sure Armageddon would come. When nothing happened on that day, they felt let down. (The Watchtower; 4/15/1990; p. 27)

    1992 “Today, a small percentage of mankind can still recall the dramatic events of 1914. Will that elderly generation pass away before God saves the earth from ruin? Not according to Bible prophecy. ‘When you see all these things,’ Jesus PROMISED, ‘know that he is near at the doors. Truly I say to you that THIS generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.’ – Matthew 24:33, 34.” (Watchtower May 1, 1992 page 3: The Year That Shocked The World)

    1993 (The society’s latest ‘History’ book – “Jehovah’s Witnesses, Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom”, 1993) [Note: At the end of this book there is a chronological section called 'Notable Dates'. The predictions for 1925 and 1975 don't even get a mention! Talk about rewriting history to gullible young converts!]

    1993 “Further, the widely circulated booklet Millions Now Living Will Never Die presented the view that in 1925, God’s purposes regarding the restoring of the earth to Paradise and the resurrecting of the faithful ones of old would begin to be fulfilled. … The year 1925 came to its conclusion, but the end was not yet! Ever since the 1870’s, Bible Students had been serving with a date in mind – first 1914, then 1925. Now they realized that they must serve for as long as Jehovah wishes.” (Watchtower; Nov. 1, 1993; p. 12)

    1995 [Discussing the generation of Mt 24] “apparently refers to the peoples of earth (now) who see the sign of Christ presence but fail to mend their ways.” (Watchtower November 1, 1995 p.12)

    1995 Bible Students, known since 1931 as Jehovah’s Witnesses, also expected that the year 1925 would see the fulfillment of marvelous Bible prophecies. … More recently, many Witnesses conjectured that events associated with the beginning of Christ’s Millennial Reign might start to take place in 1975. Their anticipation was based on the understanding that the seventh millennium of human history would begin then. (Awake, June 22, 1995 p. 9)

    1995 “Why Awake is Published” [before Nov 8th 1995] Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator’s promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away.” [After Nov. 8 1995 reference to '1914 generation' deleted] “Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator’s promise of a peaceful and secure world that is about to replace the present wicked, lawless system of things.”

    HT: Tower Watch

  9. CD,

    Now, now. What’s all that about! You know the WTBTS NEVER made ANY prophecies, NEVER made ANY predictions, and NEVER set ANY dates for Christ’s return :)

    Steve said, You just don’t get it Bill. Who cares about the WTBTS? Not me. Who cares what they printed in the past as that does not define Jehovah’s Witnesses?

    Is it just me, or does that sound like the old, “Who cares what Brigham Young or Orson Pratt taught? That’s not what the LDS church teaches anyway” line we get from Mormons? “Don’t listen to what the leaders of old said! Don’t bring up the past! Pay no mind to the man behind the curtain!

  10. Steve,

    Did I hit a nerve? You claimed that the WTBTS is “not an inspired prophet and never claimed to be. None of us are.” How am I bigoted in showing where you’re wrong? Is there some unwritten rule that I can only quote them from their writings during the period you’ve been involved? That seems conceited–like this whole argument and the WTBTS revolves around you.

    You have an interesting take on the whole born again thing. That’s not what the Society teaches. Furthermore, You’re ignoring the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. In verse 4, Nicodemus asks how he can reenter his mother’s womb. Certainly he was thinking along the lines of his physical birth. Jesus was also thinking along those lines. In verse 6 He says, flesh gives birth to flesh (1st birth) and spirit gives birth to spirit (2nd birth). You will not see the kingdom of God unless you’re born again, Steve. Don’t you think the kingdom of God would include paradise earth?

    If you’re not born again, you remain:
    1. dead in your sin (Ephesians 2:1)
    2. a child of the devil (John 3:10, John 1:12-13)

    Does someone who is dead in their sin and is a child of the devil go to paradise earth?

    Are you a JW in good standing? Is it acceptable to your elders for you to have discussions on these topics on the internet?

    Thanks for writing back.
    Bill

  11. Coram Deo,

    You just proved that you can copy and paste what others have written, but what does that have to do with Jehovah’s Witnesses?

    Nothing.

    It just shows that you are a bigot also.

    Bill,

    “Did I hit a nerve? ” No, I am just tired of the stupidity of people for pointing to JWs because of what writers of the Watchtower publications have done as if there is some direct nexus between JWs and the writers of the publications.

    There are 7 million JWs and there is no connection between what Russell wrote or what Rutherford wrote and us.

    “How am I bigoted in showing where you’re wrong? Is there some unwritten rule that I can only quote them from their writings during the period you’ve been involved? That seems conceited–like this whole argument and the WTBTS revolves around you.”

    I am not the WTBTS. So your connecting all Jehovah’s Witnesses to what they wrote and the things you find wrong is bigoted because you are making a blanket condemnation based on a few.

    No, the whole argument and the WTBTS does not revolve around me, but my faith revolves around me and Jesus. The WTBTS is simply a printing company.

    “You have an interesting take on the whole born again thing. That’s not what the Society teaches. ”

    Who cares what the Society teaches?
    Don’t you get it? JWs are not about the Society.

    “Furthermore, You’re ignoring the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus.”

    No, I am not. You are. You are taking what Jesus said to him and applying it to everyone. I am taking what Jesus said to him and applying it to him only.

    ” In verse 4, Nicodemus asks how he can reenter his mother’s womb. Certainly he was thinking along the lines of his physical birth.”

    And he was wrong for thinking that.

    ” Jesus was also thinking along those lines. ”

    No, he was not.

    “In verse 6 He says, flesh gives birth to flesh (1st birth) and spirit gives birth to spirit (2nd birth). You will not see the kingdom of God unless you’re born again, Steve. Don’t you think the kingdom of God would include paradise earth?”

    The 144,000 are born of the spirit. That was not their doing but Jehovah’s choice. They are to rule over the earth with christ.

    “If you’re not born again, you remain:
    1. dead in your sin (Ephesians 2:1)
    2. a child of the devil (John 3:10, John 1:12-13)”

    If you are not born again, you are not one to whom Jesus was talking in the context of Nicodemus.

    Those not born again will have their sins removed in the kingdom, but not as kings.

    And they are not followers of the devil.

    “Does someone who is dead in their sin and is a child of the devil go to paradise earth?”

    Not relevant to the topic.

    “Are you a JW in good standing? Is it acceptable to your elders for you to have discussions on these topics on the internet?”

    I don’t have elders… the congregation I attend has older men that preside over it, but I don’t have elders. But I don’t base what I do on what pleases men, I do what pleases God. Not that there is a difference.

  12. Steve,

    I mistyped one of the verses. John 3:10 should actually be 1 John 3:10.

    Are you a Jehovah’s Witness in good standing with the organization known as Jehovah’s Witness, or the Watchtower Society? I try to represent JW beliefs accurately, and if you are representative of the 7 million JWs I would like to know. Do you disagree with what the Society teaches about being born again? Is it acceptable for JWs to disagree with Watchtower teaching?

    You have a belief about what it means to be born again, but so far you’ve provided no scriptural basis. I tried to explain Jesus’ teaching on the topic, and all you have to offer is, “No, he was not.” That’s not a very persuasive argument.

    We are born dead in our sins (Eph 2:1) and children of the devil (1 John 3:10, John 1:12-13). If you are not those things, what happened to you, and what do you call it? I was those things, and I was born again. I was adopted into God’s family, and raised from spiritual death. I can assure you that the Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God (Romans 8:16). I am absolutely positive that I will spend eternity in heaven with Jesus.

    The WTBTS teaches that the non-144,000 JWs are not God’s children. I will provide the article and text if you like. If they’re not children of God, whose children are they? 1 John 3:10 tells us.

    I would love to have a nice conversation with you, but you insist on stating things with no reasoning or biblical basis. This is the reason why JWs aren’t allowed to receive literature, and rarely discuss things on the internet. The leaders know that if JWs run into someone who actually knows the Bible, the Watchtower doctrines won’t stand up to scrutiny. Feel free to take your time and come up with a reasoned response.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  13. Steve,

    You’re quick with the bigot label, but you’re simply mistaken here. Bill and I and others who speak the truth aren’t bigoted towards you or JW’s. In fact we are eager to tell the truth to all who will listen whether they be JW’s, Mormons, Muslims, Catholics, Hindus, or any other form of false religionist who stands in rebellion against the revealed Word of God.

    So then these are the real issues, truth and authority.

    A true born-again, blood bought believer in the Lord Jesus Christ (who is God in flesh) loves the truth because He is the Truth, and He is so much more. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and none can come unto the Father but by Him. If you get the wrong Jesus, then you’re damned to hell for eternity. There is no “soul sleep”, and there is no “annhilation”, but rather the smoke of their eternal, conscious, fiery torment rises forever and ever where there is weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth and where their worm dies not.

    A true born-again, blood bought believer in the Lord Jesus Christ submits to the authority of the Holy Bible. God’s Word is the ultimate authority, because there is no higher authority than the One True and Living God, the Infinite Creator and Judge of the universe.

    You reject the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society as your authority, and you claim that you “do what pleases God”, but by rejecting the Eternal Son and making Him to be a creature, robbing Him of His glory you do not please God, but rather you infuriate Him and provoke His burning wrath as you heap hot coals of condemnation upon your own head.

    You must repent of your false religion of works-righteousness, Steve. It is impossible that you or any man who has ever lived apart from the Lord Jesus Christ Himself could please God, because you, like all men, are in the flesh all flesh is guilty and sinful before the One True and Living God. His Word declares that your righteous deeds are as filthy rags before Him and are utterly unacceptable. It’s only His abundant mercy that allows you to draw another breath as you shake your puny fist in His face and revile the true Jesus Christ of scripture who you reject in favor of a man-made lie, robbing God of His glory and giving it to a mere creature of your own vain imagining.

    I encourage you to turn away from the fables of the JW cult and turn to the One True and Living God and the only Savior of men, the Eternal Son, Christ Jesus.

    In Christ,
    CD

  14. It never ceases to amaze me how the JW’s and Mormons in particular are so quick to attempt to dodge, duck, or otherwise dump their own respective cultic organization’s false teachings, but this is one of the pesky things about facts, they just won’t go away.

    It must be extremely frustrating for the mind-control cults like the Watchtower and the LDS to be forced to deal with these issues in the information age and be placed in the position where they must continually reject the authoritative teachings of their own organizations. Back in the day they could lie so much more freely and easily, and unless someone happened to have an actual copy of one of their false publications handy they could just deny the teaching ever occurred at all and dismiss their opponent’s arguments out of hand. The fact that they still do this today even when the facts are staring them in the face speaks volumes about their intellectual dishonesty.

    Yet the hallmark of the unregenerate, sinful mind is absurdity and futility, and it’s easy to see that such is the case with the JW and LDS apologists, er, I mean, spinmeisters.

    In Christ,
    CD

  15. “JW’s are so quick to attempt to dodge, duck, or otherwise dump their own respective cultic organization’s false teachings”

    Since JWs are interested in the truth, of course we will dump that which is false. That is why we call our religion – the truth.
    But it sure beats being a dishonest bigot as the critics of the JWs are.

  16. Bill,

    “Are you a Jehovah’s Witness in good standing with the organization known as Jehovah’s Witness, or the Watchtower Society? ”

    As I stated, I don’t worry about what the Watchtower Society says. I moderate a yahoo group that has 4000 people in it and host a site listed that contains the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses in audio format.

    “I try to represent JW beliefs accurately, and if you are representative of the 7 million JWs I would like to know.”

    Listen to the audio and you will know what I believe and represent.

    ” Do you disagree with what the Society teaches about being born again? Is it acceptable for JWs to disagree with Watchtower teaching?”

    There are only 144,000 being anointed by holy spirit, and then going to heaven when they die. I dislike how people get so worked up over a phrase that Jesus used to one individual. Think of the purpose and the process, not the phrase.

    “You have a belief about what it means to be born again, but so far you’ve provided no scriptural basis. I tried to explain Jesus’ teaching on the topic, and all you have to offer is, “No, he was not.” That’s not a very persuasive argument.”

    I am not arguing anything. Jesus used that phrase with one man, Nicodemus. Thus it applies to him and ones in the same situation as him.

    “We are born dead in our sins (Eph 2:1) and children of the devil (1 John 3:10, John 1:12-13). If you are not those things, what happened to you, and what do you call it? I was those things, and I was born again. ”

    We all are those things but you were not born again.

    “I was adopted into God’s family, and raised from spiritual death. I can assure you that the Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God (Romans 8:16). I am absolutely positive that I will spend eternity in heaven with Jesus.”

    But that is not born again, that is born once. Born once God adopted you with the holy spirit. That is one. One, not again, two. To be born again you would need two births by God. But you listed only one adoption by God.

    But by the fact that you criticize JWs, there is no reason that Jehovah would adopt an enemy of his Son and other adopted sons. So you are not adopted by him.

    “The WTBTS teaches that the non-144,000 JWs are not God’s children. I will provide the article and text if you like. If they’re not children of God, whose children are they? 1 John 3:10 tells us.”

    Know what? It is not that the WTBTS teaches that, it is that I teach that. Because Rev 21:7 says that at the end of the 1000 years then Jehovah will adopt all mankind in general.

    “I would love to have a nice conversation with you, but you insist on stating things with no reasoning or biblical basis.”

    No you wouldn’t otherwise you wouldn’t use the WTBTS material.

    ” This is the reason why JWs aren’t allowed to receive literature, and rarely discuss things on the internet. The leaders know that if JWs run into someone who actually knows the Bible, the Watchtower doctrines won’t stand up to scrutiny. Feel free to take your time and come up with a reasoned response.”

    But you don’t know the Bible. You just know fluff. And your saying ‘allowed’ means that others judge matters,which they don’t.

    Actually I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses because our doctrines have stood up to scrutiny.

  17. Hello Steve,

    You stated you “will dump that which is false”, but according to what authority? Is your authority in the infallible Word of God alone or in the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society? Is your Word of God based on the original writings of Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic, OR have they actually been changed to a foundation that is suitable for the support of false teaching and heresy? A classic example would be the deliberate changing of God’s Holy Word in John 1:1 where your version was changed to read in a manner that explicitly states that Jesus Christ was A god and not The God Maker of heaven and earth, the ONLY begotten Son of the Most High.

    Please share with us how our criticism of the heresies being forced upon JW’s is being dishonest and that we are bigots? Unlike with JW’s, we ENCOURAGE our people to study the Word of God and to be Berean Christians. We consider it a shame when people willingly swallow whatever “pastors” might throw at them from the pulpit and claim that it is the Word of God.

    I would challenge you in kindness to consider the statistics of those who are true Berean Christians and have a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures EVER converting to the man-made religion of the JW’s versus those who are JW’s that convert by the wonderful grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and find their sins forgiven, a home in heaven waiting for them, and knowing that they will NEVER have to suffer the penalty of death that the Righteous God of heaven demands for the depravity in which humanity dwells.

    The Desert Pastor

  18. Steve,

    Is your authority the Word of God as it is uniquely contained within the 66 books of the Holy Bible?

    If so, do you then believe that Jesus Christ was an incarnation of Michael the Archangel, or some similar highly exalted created being? In other words is it your position that the Holy Bible teaches that the Lord Jesus Christ is a creation of Jehovah God and that He (Jesus) is the highest of all created beings, but a created being nonetheless? Do you believe this is true and that this is taught by scripture?

    In the book of Revelation we are taught that the 144,000 witnesses are all Jewish virgin males; 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. Do you believe the testimony of scripture on this point?

    In Christ,
    CD

  19. Steve,

    There are several examples in the New Testament of the phrase born again/born of God.

    – John 1:12-13 – born of God into his family
    – John 3 – born again
    – 1 Peter 1:3-4 – new birth
    – 1 Peter 1:23 – born again
    – Several times 1 John speaks of being born of God

    1 John 5:1 in particular gets to the point (NWT), “Everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born from God…”

    Clearly there is a problem with your thinking here. It’s not only Nicodemus that must be born again, but it’s repeated throughout the New Testament. Christians are addressed as having been born again. EVERYONE who believes Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.

    You’ve offered no justification or scriptural basis for your thinking that born again means anything other than being born once from our mothers, and being born again of God’s will. If you can’t offer any basis, then I have to assume you made it up.

    You’re not born again or born of God. Yet I’m certain you would say you believe Jesus is the Christ. What’s the problem? Don’t you believe 1 John 5:1? Maybe you have the wrong Jesus (2 Cor. 11:4)–one who can’t keep his promise.

    Please provide a biblical basis for your doctrines, or otherwise I have nothing to go on. You’ve only cited one verse in this whole conversation: Revelation 21:7. And it certainly doesn’t say God will adopt all mankind. It says He’ll adopt all that overcome. Are you saying that every human will overcome? What is your basis for believing that?

    While you should feel free to call me anything you want, and say anything you want about my knowledge of the Bible, I think it’s pretty clear who cares more about what the Bible says. I want to know the truth of the Bible. I will look at whatever you have to say, but it must have a biblical basis. I have to believe you’re dead in your sins and a child of the devil, until you give me a biblical reason to believe otherwise.

    I appreciate your time.
    Bill

  20. Desert Pastor:

    “But according to what authority? Is your authority in the infallible Word of God alone or in the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society?”

    My authority is Simon Cowell. What other authority is there?

    Why do you keep bringing up the WTBTS?

    My authority is in that which is contained within http://www.jwproclaimers.org That is not the WTBTS material but material from the Bible.

    ” Is your Word of God based on the original writings of Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic, OR have they actually been changed to a foundation that is suitable for the support of false teaching and heresy?”

    You know. I don’t think that it matters. What matters is that it works.

    ” A classic example would be the deliberate changing of God’s Holy Word in John 1:1 where your version was changed to read in a manner that explicitly states that Jesus Christ was A god and not The God Maker of heaven and earth, the ONLY begotten Son of the Most High.”

    It’s saying ‘a god’ shows that he is the only begotten son of Jehovah God. Anything else, salvation can not occur. If Jesus is God, then no one can be saved.

    “Please share with us how our criticism of the heresies being forced upon JW’s is being dishonest and that we are bigots? ”

    Because nothing is forced on JWs.

    “Unlike with JW’s, we ENCOURAGE our people to study the Word of God and to be Berean Christians. We consider it a shame when people willingly swallow whatever “pastors” might throw at them from the pulpit and claim that it is the Word of God.”

    Well, do more than study it, go out an preach it.

    “I would challenge you in kindness to consider the statistics of those who are true Berean Christians and have a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures EVER converting to the man-made religion of the JW’s versus those who are JW’s that convert by the wonderful grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and find their sins forgiven, a home in heaven waiting for them, and knowing that they will NEVER have to suffer the penalty of death that the Righteous God of heaven demands for the depravity in which humanity dwells.”

    Whatever.

    No such thing as a true Berean Christians. Those who leave JWs do not go to heaven. You are so caught up in yourself and your falseness.

  21. “Is your authority the Word of God as it is uniquely contained within the 66 books of the Holy Bible?”

    My authority is that which is the authority of those 66 books of the Bible.

    “If so, do you then believe that Jesus Christ was an incarnation of Michael the Archangel, or some similar highly exalted created being?”

    You tell me. Listen to the 2007 Follow the Christ District convention and tell me what our beliefs as to Jesus is and how many times they state that he is Michael.

    ” In other words is it your position that the Holy Bible teaches that the Lord Jesus Christ is a creation of Jehovah God and that He (Jesus) is the highest of all created beings, but a created being nonetheless? Do you believe this is true and that this is taught by scripture?”

    There is a talk in that convention titled: Jesus – “A Master Worker” In Creation. I suggest you listen to that. It will state that Jesus was Jehovah’s master worker in creation.

    “In the book of Revelation we are taught that the 144,000 witnesses are all Jewish virgin males; 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. Do you believe the testimony of scripture on this point?”

    And we are taught that Jesus is the bridegroom and that he marries a bride. We are taught that Jesus is the high priest and that a high priest can only marry a virgin.

    Do you see the connection? The high priest Jesus can marry only a virgin. Not a physical woman, but the 144,000 who are spiritual virgins.

  22. Steve said: My authority is in that which is contained within http://www.jwproclaimers.org That is not the WTBTS material but material from the Bible

    So your authority is a yahoo group that you moderate? Amazing! It’s as if you’ve carved your very own little sub-cult out from the larger JW cult.

    Evidently if one can’t be an “official” cult leader in the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society one can always freelance and become a cult leader all on their own, eh? You seem to be “running ahead of the brethren” Steve, and I’m guessing that the “faithful and discreet slaves” over at the Watchtower can’t be happy with this apostasy.

    Have you been disfellowshipped from the Kingdom Hall, Steve?

    Steve said: “If Jesus is God, then no one can be saved.” In point of fact according to the Holy Bible precisely the opposite is true, to wit – if Jesus Christ is not God then no one can be saved. Salvation is of the Lord.

    Who is all the created universe worshipping in Revelation 5:13, Steve? Is it idolatry to offer worship any being other than Jehovah God?

    In Christ,
    CD

  23. Steve said: My authority is that which is the authority of those 66 books of the Bible.

    By this I assume you mean that Jehovah God is your authority, correct? If so, then how can you know Jehovah God apart from His authoritative Word as it is contained in the 66 books of the Holy Bible? Do you receive extra-biblical revelation apart from the testimony of scripture? If so, how can you verify that it is true and authoritative revelation? If not then we’re back to square one and you must bow the knee to Jehovah’s authoritative written Word. Which is it?

    Steve said: “There is a talk in that convention titled: Jesus – “A Master Worker” In Creation. I suggest you listen to that. It will state that Jesus was Jehovah’s master worker in creation.”

    Why won’t you answer a direct question with a direct answer? What are you afraid of? Do you believe and teach that Jesus Christ is a highly exalted being created by Jehovah God?

    Steve said: And we are taught that Jesus is the bridegroom and that he marries a bride. We are taught that Jesus is the high priest and that a high priest can only marry a virgin.

    Do you see the connection? The high priest Jesus can marry only a virgin. Not a physical woman, but the 144,000 who are spiritual virgins.

    I see that the testimony of scripture is that in the book of Revelation we are taught that the 144,000 witnesses are all Jewish virgin males; 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. I’ll ask again, Steve: Do you believe the testimony of scripture on this point?

    In Christ,
    CD

  24. Very interesting conversation. Long before I was a Christian, I had a very close friend who was a JW. She was disfellowshipped at the time. Eventually she had to work her way back into the cult because she desperately missed her siblings. I wish she could read some of these articles on DefCon now. I wish she had when she was trying to get back in.

    On a side note, I wanted to mention this: after reading through the series of comments, it is VERY clear who the true witness of Jehovah is.

    Titus 3:10-11

  25. Steve,

    It seems there is limited access to the material on your website without a password. Is there any way you can set me up?

    Thanks,
    Bill

  26. Steve,

    I question the authority on which you base your decisions. It is false unless based solely on the Word of God. I question the validity of a salvation that is not based solely by grace through faith alone in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary.

    Your assumption that what matters as long as it works is hugely flawed on several levels. It reminds me of a commercial I saw about an oval wheel being invented with the caption, “What if good is good enough?” Life was so different for the rest of mankind. That is the problem when your religion is based on the fallacy that what matters is whether it works or not. It will gain you or anybody else entrance into heaven and the presence of God.

    Contrary to what you state which is merely a parroting of JW heresy about Jesus not being the Only true God, the truth of Scripture is that Jesus Christ is God and if He was NOT God, then NOBODY would ever have the ability to gain fellowship with God again. Only because Jesus Christ who is very God was willing to lay aside His glory with the Father and come to earth and take upon Himself human flesh and then eventually 33 years later go to the cross of Calvary and atone for the sins of ALL who would come to Him in faith is this even remotely possible.

    As for me, I not only study, but I do go out and share the truth of God’s Word as a messenger of the message of redemption. Sadly, you choose to ignore the facts and will believe what you have been told. Steve, the difference between what you have purportedly held to and what I, Coram, and Bill have shared is that religion (which you hold to) is ALL of man and whatever parts of God you think you can choose to believe in (even if it is twisted); while true Biblical Christianity is ALL of God (the Lord Jesus Christ) and NONE of you or I or any other person who ever has or ever will live in this sin-cursed world.

    By the way, in conclusion, my faith is built on NOTHING less than Jesus’ blood and righteousness. I dare not trust in anything less. My faith is not based on whether I am a JW or not. You will find, my friend, that when you stand in judgment before the Lord Jesus Christ that He will not care one iota whether you claim to be a JW, a Methodist, a Catholic, a Mormon, a Jew, a Protestant, a Buddhist, a Muslim, or even a Baptist.

    Thankful for the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ,
    The Desert Pastor

  27. lyn says:

    I am curious Steve, which of the 12 tribes do you belong to? The 144,000 are made up of the 12 tribes of Israel you know, so you must be a Jew?

    You say, “There are only 144,000 being anointed by holy spirit, and then going to heaven when they die”, if you believe this, why do you go door to door and try to convert people to JW? Surely there have already been that many who follow the teachings of the JW.

  28. Lyn,

    the JWs believe only an elect 144,000 are going to heaven. The rest of them are to be resurrected on a “paradise earth.” I can’t speak for Steve, but I don’t think he claims to be of this elect. The reason for going door-to-door is so that they believe they are fulfilling the great commission. They hope that people will become ‘followers of Jehovah’ (obviously not THE Jehovah) and spend eternity on this paradise earth, with lions and lambs and friendly snakes and so on… (The illustrations in their books depict this absurdity with all of the men in nice little outfits, clean-shaven, slim, and all of the women in dresses with long hair, walking on this restored earth). Interestingly, there can only be 144,000 elect, and the last time I checked they had almost reached the quota. They believe that the end has to come no later than the physical death of the last of the elect, whoever he/she is. Now we know that won’t happen, so I am interested in seeing how they will twist their doctrines (again) when the last elect actually dies, and their “Jesus” still hasn’t returned. I would like to pray that that may be set off the death-rattle of this cult once and for all. Perhaps not though, for we know that the living God, Jesus Christ, will be returning one day and these are definitely the last days. In these times there will be those who say “Lo, here is Christ…” (Mat. 24:23). Then perhaps our Sovereign Lord may permit them to persist only to be burnt away in the great tribulation. Either way, they’re just another turn-of-the-century devil-spawned cult who, in their brief history, have come to believe that they have a monopoly on Truth.

  29. lyn says:

    Brother Aaron- thank you for the clarification. I always am blessed to learn from my brothers in the Lord.
    God bless

  30. Lyn,

    your welcome! MY apologies for the shoddy writing. I made a few grammatical errors. Must be the cobwebs in my eyes.

    I am looking forward to Steve’s return, because I’d like to have what I wrote verified. I don’t claim to be an expert on the JWs or anything. I am going off of my memory of what I learned while I was friends with some of them. I actually had a few ‘bible studies’ with the JWs (again, before I was a born-again believer). I must have retained some of what I learned, which is surprising because that was over 10 years ago :)

  31. Brother Aaron,

    The JW lady that visited my house recently said similar to what you said.

    “Oh, I know I’m not one of the elect and I have no intention of going to heaven. I hope to live here on the paradise earth.”

    I’ve been learning from this discussion but it does appear that Steve is not a JW in good standing but he is out on his own. Maybe he is an emerging JW!

    Berean Wife

  32. lyn,,

    I never said that I was physical or spiritual Israel.

    ” if you believe this, why do you go door to door and try to convert people to JW? Surely there have already been that many who follow the teachings of the JW.”

    Because our goal is not to find those 144,000. It is to gather those who will be in this great crowd that will survive the end by washing their robes and making them white in the blood of the lamb.

    *********************************************************************

    Coram,

    “So your authority is a yahoo group that you moderate?”

    I didn’t say that did I? Read it again.

    I said ‘My authority is in that which is contained within the website.’.

    So what is contained within the website. Talks and assemblies based on the Bible given by Jehovah’s Witnesses. Thus my authority is based on the Bible.

    ” It’s as if you’ve carved your very own little sub-cult out from the larger JW cult.”

    No cult involved here.

    It is just that there are many of us who prefer to from the many spiritual provisions of Jehovah that are not published in printed form, but are from Jehovah.

    “Evidently if one can’t be an “official” cult leader in the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society one can always freelance and become a cult leader all on their own, eh? ”

    Nope, no cult involved and no leadership involved. Jesus is that leader we follow.

    “You seem to be “running ahead of the brethren” Steve, and I’m guessing that the “faithful and discreet slaves” over at the Watchtower can’t be happy with this apostasy.”

    Actually they are very happy with what I do as Gal 5:23 says “Against such things there is no law.” Those such things are the fruitages of the spirit which includes love. I help the brotherhood with love, joy, peace, etc.

    “Have you been disfellowshipped from the Kingdom Hall”

    People are not disfellowshipped from the Kingdom Halls.

    “Steve said: “If Jesus is God, then no one can be saved.” In point of fact according to the Holy Bible precisely the opposite is true, to wit – if Jesus Christ is not God then no one can be saved. Salvation is of the Lord.”

    Since Jesus is the high priest, in the manner of Aaron. That means that he is between Jehovah God and sinful mankind. Thus he can not be Jehovah God. If he were Jehovah he can not be high priest and thus the atonement is not fulfilled.

    “Who is all the created universe worshipping in Revelation 5:13, Steve? Is it idolatry to offer worship any being other than Jehovah God?”

    No one.

    It says ‘To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.”’

    Both Jehovah God and Jesus are blessed and honored. But note what that chapter says “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons”

    Jesus was honored because he died for all.

    ********************************************************************

    Brother Aaron,

    You said”I had a very close friend who was a JW. She was disfellowshipped at the time.”

    Why is it that people focus so much on the disfellowshipping thing? Why that rather than the honoring and glorifying of God.

  33. Hi Steve,

    The answer to your question depends on two things:

    When you say ‘people’ are you referring to a) Christians or b) non-Christians? (Obviously you mistakenly view everyone who isn’t a JW as a ‘non-Christian’, but for the sake of my point, bear with me. We’ll say, from your perspective, that ‘Christians’ refers to what you would call ‘Christendom’)

    a) Christians may ‘focus’ on it because: when looking into the JW religion from the outside, we naturally compare it to the Church (bride of Christ) because of your own truth claims. What we see in your disfellowshipping (bad associations spoil useful habits, right?) is, in practice, an extreme aberration of good doctrine: namely, Church discipline. As well, and even more importantly, is this: most of us, who have even an inkling of the ‘methods’ of the JW cult, see it as the perpetuation of their control techniques, especially in regard to independent thinking.

    As far as honoring and glorifying God: there is no doubt in my mind that they, by worldly standards, are ‘upright and good citizens’ (for the most part: I needn’t discuss the child molestation, medical neglect and statistics of psychological disorders within a segment of their membership.) However, their ‘fellowship,’ ‘evangelism,’ ‘missionary work,’ and whatever else they are and do… are but filthy rags to Jehovah. I simply cannot see anything that is “honoring and glorifying of God” within their religion because they are ENEMIES OF GOD, just as much as I was an enemy of God two years ago before my salvation. They are of the dark like any lost, sinful, wretched soul, in need of salvation, and absolutely UNABLE to do anything that is honoring to God.

    b) Perhaps non-Christians are just baffled.

    In Christ,

    Aaron

  34. Steve said: So what is contained within the website. Talks and assemblies based on the Bible given by Jehovah’s Witnesses. Thus my authority is based on the Bible.

    So then your authority based upon a combination of the Holy Bible AND the interpretations of other JW’s? Do those other JW’s interpretations line up with the teachings of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, or are they at odds with them?

    Nope, no cult involved and no leadership involved. Jesus is that leader we follow. But you just said your authority is the combined teachings of the Holy Bible and the interpretations of other JW’s. Which is true? Is the authority of the Jesus you follow the same as the authority as that of the Holy Bible, or is it different?

    Steve said: People are not disfellowshipped from the Kingdom Halls. So then you are a member in good standing at your local Kingdom Hall, correct?

    Steve said: Since Jesus is the high priest, in the manner of Aaron. That means that he is between Jehovah God and sinful mankind. Thus he can not be Jehovah God. If he were Jehovah he can not be high priest and thus the atonement is not fulfilled.

    Actually the Holy Bible teaches that the Lord Jesus Christ is a high priest after the order of Melchisedec (Hebrews 5:6), not Aaron. Do you believe the testimony of scripture on this point, Steve? Only God could mediate between sinful men and Himself. Jesus Christ is Jehovah God, because He is the Eternal Son, the Second Person of the thrice holy Triune One True and Living God, fully God and fully man. No mere creature could possibly fulfill the role of mediator, only God Himself could fill this role, and so He does. Full atonement was made when God the Son shed His own blood on a cruel Roman cross and gave His life as a ransom for many, being raised from the dead on the third day to live forevermore.

    No one.

    It says ‘To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.”’

    Both Jehovah God and Jesus are blessed and honored. But note what that chapter says “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons”

    Jesus was honored because he died for all.

    You’re not telling the truth, Steve. The reason you’re confused is because you believe Jesus, “The Master Worker” is Michael the Archangel, a created being. But Jesus Christ is uncreated, because He is very God of God, not “a god”. Jesus Christ is YAHWEH, Jehovah God. There is only ONE Eternal God identified by the name Jehovah (YAHWEH). But there are THREE PERSONS who are identified by the name Jehovah (YAHWEH) in the Holy Bible. This is why true Christians affirm the Trinity in Unity, because this is the teaching of the Holy Bible, God’s only self-revelation of Himself to men.

    The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are ALL identified as YAHWEH (Jehovah) in the Bible. See John 12:39-41 and compare it with Isaiah 6, and look at Psalm 102:25-27 and Hebrews 1:10-12 in your New World Translation and see if what is being described in Psalm 102:25-27 could only be true of Jehovah (YAHWEH), noticing that this Psalm describes attributes unique to Him, then read Hebrews 1:10-12 and note that the same attributes are ascribed by the Holy Bible to Jesus Christ.

    You believe Jehovah God sent Jesus Christ (Michael the Archangel) into the world, but look at Philippians 2:5-11; Jesus Christ EMPTIES HIMSELF, He makes Himself of no reputation. This is something Jesus does Himself. Did Michael empty himself of his “Michael” spirit and create within himself a “Jesus” spirit? Or did Jehovah take the spirit Michael and create Jesus out of that? How do you deal with the reality that The Son empties Himself, meaning He must be pre-existent and that He must have the power within Himself to empty Himself?

    Revelation chapters 4 and 5 provide a glimpse into heaven. These books are filled with worship of God in heaven by the created universe. What we see is the continuous worship of God in heaven, it’s a heavenly worship scene. It’s very, very clear that this is the worship of God in heaven.

    Then we have a scroll…no one is worthy to open the scroll, no one in all creation is worthy. But we see the Lamb take the scroll, and the same elders who have been falling down before Jehovah God on his throne, who have been falling down before Him in worship now fall down before the Lamb, each holding bowls of incense filled with the prayers of the saints, and the elders sing a new song, which is joined by the entire created universe, including all the angelsexactly as they were giving worship to Him who sits upon the throne in chapter 4.

    Every created thing in the entire created universe ascribes glory to who? To Him that sits upon the throne and the Lamb. There is a dual object of worship here. Him who sits upon the throne is an object of worship, and so is the Lamb. This could only be possible if Jesus Christ – the Lamb – is God, otherwise the entire created universe is guilty of engaging in idolatry in front of Jehovah God’s throne.

    You can’t pretend like the Lamb isn’t there, nor can you pretend that the entire created universe isn’t actually worshipping God in heaven, He who sits upon the throne, and the Lamb.

    The ENTIRE CREATED UNIVERSE offers up worship to the Father and the Son, to Him who sits upon the throne and the Lamb. Happily Revelation 5 is a very short chapter, so I’ll post it in its entirety below.

    1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

    2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

    3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

    4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

    5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

    6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

    7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

    8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

    9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

    12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

  35. Edwin says:

    Steve,

    And any other true Jws on this blog, why are u trying to argue with people who are bent on not being convinced? They bring out refrences from all the old citations of literature written by Br.Russel and others.
    The truth remains the same and no one can change it. Jesus now rules as king and he will soon overthrow satans hold on this system. Isnt it more than evident as to how these people are groping in darkness still stuck with what we were saying in the past. Such a futile attempt even to gain more knowledge, if it were such a case.
    If they would read the bible and not just scriptures they will understand the harmony that you and I comprehend at our meetings.

    For those who think we are false prophets and whatever it is u convict us of being, you are entitled to your view because none of it is going to stop this preaching work. It will continue no matter what any human or government does to stop it. You are welcome to probe even further and break your heads behind this. But unless you truly want to know you will never understand these precious truths. Remember what Jesus once said that these things will be kept from the wise and intellectual ones and revealed to babes.
    You are leading a life and you have a future to think of, if you think that it is the most meaningful life you can ever have then what Jehovahs Witnesses teach would not make sense to you because unfortunately you have deceived yourself into believing that these teachings that you hold so precious are from God. The truth on the other hand is quite the opposite. We JW’s dont dream of life in heaven nor in horrible circumstances like these on earth.
    That is why we await Gods Kingdom to take over earthly matters too. That is the “eminent doom” we always speak of. If your minds are open you will probably understand it the way it is written, as a change in ruler ship from human to divine. If your minds are shut then you will understand it in a million different ways.

  36. Hi Edwin,

    If you were to take the time to read the conversation Steve and I had, you would see that I’m trying to figure out the Jehovah’s Witness belief on being born again. Steve had a unique take on the whole thing, and I’m pretty sure he disagrees with the WTBTS teaching on the subject.

    I would guess you are among the 99%+ of Jehovah’s Witnesses who are not born again, and the WTBTS teaches that those who aren’t born again aren’t God’s children (I would agree). This raises an interesting question. Whose children are the 99% of Jehovah’s Witnesses who aren’t children of God? The only alternative I see in the Bible is that they are children of the devil (1 John 3:10, John 8:44). Do you think you’re a child of the devil? If not, whose child are you?

    Thanks,
    Bill

  37. parabyl says:

    Bill asked Steve earlier about the password to your site (Steve). I am curious to your teachings. I am not here to challenge you, just interested in reading.

  38. Bill and parabyl, to get a login, join the yahoogroup jwtalks.

    As to being born again, since it is not up to us as to whether we are or not, if it were then it would be works that would be saving us, then it is best not to be concerned about it.

  39. Hi Steve,

    I fully agree that we cannot choose to be born again. How can a dead man raise himself to life? However, the clear teaching of the Bible is that those who are not born again are dead in their sins, children of the devil, objects of wrath, and will not see the kingdom of God. I think that’s a clear indication that the Watchtower is a false organization, since 99% of their followers are children of the devil.

    God may choose to raise you from the spiritually dead when you hear the gospel. Clearly there are many hear who would be happy to explain the biblical gospel to you, including me. I hope that you will be born again and we can spend eternity together with Jesus.

    Thanks for the info on how to join.

    Bill

  40. Brad says:

    I have been reading this entire discussion, and to be quite honest, I am very confused. I am sincerely looking for the truth in all things, so please help me to understand your beliefs.

    Bill and Coram Deo: It is obvious that you believe in the Trinity. This belief confuses me very much. Especially since you even quote from Revelation where the one on the Throne (Jehovah) and the lamb (Jesus) are listed as two different persons. Also, if the one on the Throne (Jehovah) and the lamb (Jesus) are one in the same, why does the lamb receive the scroll from the one on the throne? Seems odd that one God-head has to give the scroll to itself. I am very confused. I have always understood that the phrase, the Father and I are one to mean that they are one in purpose. Not that they are the same person. Also, how can the son worship the father if the son and the father are the same? Is that not self worship?

    Steve: It is true that each one has an accounting before Jehovah. So, your statement that you were not the one that wrote past articles therefore you have no responsibility in what was written is true. But, you also made the statement, who cares about what the WTBTS or the “Society” thinks confuses me. While it is true that there have been, and continue to be, multiple legal corporations that are used by Jehovah’s Witnesses, to most peoples understanding, the “Society” equates to the organization that is known as Jehovah’s Witnesses. Particularly, it is used as an alias for the Governing Body. The term “Society” is used within the congregation by brothers and sisters all the time when referring to the source of the literature that is received, also known as “food at the proper time”. Can you please explain this to me?

    Please understand that I am praying daily for Jehovah to reveal his truth to me. I read the Bible daily, I study it, but I do not understand everything there is to know. Any information you can pass on to me which I can test against the word of God, I will be very happy to accept.

    *****************************************************************

    I look forward to hearing from all of you; Steve, Bill, and Coram Deo on my last post.

    But now, back to the topic of this thread. The reason that this topic is so important to me is because of the command in Revelation ‘to get out of her my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins’. This is pertaining to the great Harlot, Babylon the Great. My understanding of this has always meant that Gods people need get out of False Religion.

    Obviously, if a religion is a “false prophet” then it would be a False Religion. So this is an extremely important subject.

    Growing up as a JW I always viewed the organization simply as students of the Bible. At times, the study of the Bible has led the Governing Body to wrong conclusions, that is obvious, and I have always accepted it for what it was. Not prophecy but trying to understand the scriptures. Studying the deep things of the Bible, many times leads one to speculate since the Bible does give every detail. It does involve an open mind, study, prayer, and ultimately faith.

    Over the years though I have started to think that the organization is changing. What once was a study group that was unified in worshiping Jehovah, has become a very big religion that insists that we all believe exactly the same thing for the sake of Unity.

    Once the organization changes from being a study group to a religion that dictates dogma, then it is possible that it could be a “False Prophet” if it enforces wrong teachings in the name of Jehovah. I am torn on this subject and honesty, I do not know which way to go on this. Nor do I know who to talk to for guidance.

    The normal approach would be to talk to the elders, or older men, in the congregation. (Steve, why were you so insistent that there is a difference in these terms?) But, to be honest, my confidence has been shaken since many of my close friends and confidants, who were elders, have been disfellowshipped, and rightfully so, for gross sexual misconduct. They have not only sinned, but then gone on to leave their families and have done very cruel hateful things that honestly, sickens me. One elder in particular was actually committing adultery with multiple women when he was appointed as an elder. When his sin was first exposed he confided in me that he thinks he was appointed as an elder so that his sin would be made known. This really confused me? If Jesus, as head of the congregation, appoints the elders, older men, then why would such a person be put in such a position as to damage the congregation. This has made me very wary of speaking to anyone about my questions, as I have no confidence in how imperfect men are shepherding the flock.

    If someone can point me in the right direction I would highly appreciate it. I am praying to Jehovah and reading his word to better understand the situation, but I also know that at times, Jehovah will use ‘true companions’ to answer prayers (as in the case of Job).

    I really am hurting and very confused, so any help is appreciated.

  41. Brad,
    I will let those you addressed in your post comment since you have specific questions for them. I must add though a few comments as I can see you are really struggling and in some respects I have been in a similar situation.

    First, I was never a Jehovah Witness, but I was a member of what was called the Worldwide Church of God for nine years. A “church”, or more correctly a very corrupt organization, that I joined after I came to find them on TV late one night (I would join many years after initially finding them).

    All was not bad with the WCG in that it was the vehicle God used to get me to open the Bible and to see that I was a sinner in need of a Saviour despite what I had been taught as a Catholic. And that the religion of my youth, Catholicism, was not truth and that I needed to repent and believe the gospel (problem is they were not preaching the true gospel but rather the gospel of the kingdom just as you hear in the Watchtower).

    The WCG organization started much the same as the Watchtower Bible and Tract society did where it was one man, in this case, Herbert Armstrong (HWA), who saw himself as a latter day Apostle of God. One who God had raised up to preach the truth because ALL other Christians were believing lies and were part of Babylon. Only HWA had the truth and if you wanted to be saved from the coming wrath of God on earth, then you had better join the WCG. Because they taught it was they alone who had the truth. And salvation was only found in the WCG.

    All of this is so similar to the Watchtower. What also was similar is that the WCG produced very nice literature that we were constantly fed to help us really understand the Bible. This coming in the form of very pretty magazines almost identical to what you receive as a JW. Nice pictures and a lot of articles about prophecy, predictions of the end of the world and Armageddon, the destruction of the harlot / Babylon (which means all religions including Christians except of course the WCG), and the setting up of the kingdom of God on earth.

    I won’t digress to say how God got me out of the WCG, but I thank God he did. Years after leaving I also found out that the WCG was riddled with sin much as you are seeing with the Watchtower. HWA was said to be a pedophile with his daughter. His son committed fornication. And more egregious sins were committed by other men throughout the organization.

    Another huge sin that probably all WCG members committed was the sin of PRIDE. Pride because WE were right and every other person who professed to be a Christian was wrong and part of the harlot. We had it ALL right and they had it ALL wrong. We were going to live on paradise earth, they were going to be destroyed. Exactly as you have been taught by the Watchtower.

    Yet these things are not the worst of it; rather, the damning thing is that we were not taught the true gospel. The simple Gospel one will find in the Scriptures without all the man-made additions and requirements that one is fed. Much as the Watchtower adds to God’s world like having to go door-to-door for so many hours, or to dress a certain way, or to only work in approved businesses, or to go to the kingdom hall so many times a week, etc., etc., etc. None of this is the gospel.

    The true gospel Brad you will find in the pages of the Scriptures. Herein, I know that my brethren on this site, as well as myself, will be more than willing to help you understand it and to come along side you as we can.

    Forgive me for rambling but I thought it might be helpful for you to know that you are not alone in your struggles as many of us have walked a similar path.

  42. Brad says:

    Brother Michael,

    This may not be the correct thread for this discussion, but can you please explain to me what is not correct about the gospel that is taught by the JWs?

    What is your understanding of the correct teaching of the gospel?

  43. Hi Brad,

    I’ll tackle your initial question about the Trinity. It’s important to have the proper definition of the Trinity. The Trinity is one God in three persons. For example a brick has being, but no personhood. Humans have one being and one person. God is infinite; He is not limited. He is one being (which is God) in three persons.

    So, when you say the Father gives the Son a scroll, and it seems like they’re two persons, that is consistent with the doctrine of the Trinity. Also, in Rev. 5:1, Jesus is at the right hand of the Father. In verse 6, He is on the throne. In verse 12-14, Jesus receives worship along with the Father. That is a beautiful chapter showing the deity of Jesus.

    Concerning John 10:30, after Jesus said, “I and the Father are one” the Jews picked up stones to kill Him for claiming to be God (verse 33). They certainly believed they were one in purpose with God, but they knew that Jesus was not referring to being one in purpose.

    How can Jesus worship the Father? Jesus made Himself nothing (Philippians 2:7), and He was born under the law to save those that were under the law (Galatians 4:4-5). Jesus had to obey all the laws, including worshiping God.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  44. Brad says:

    Bill,

    Thanks for the reply.

    I do want to debate the Trinity with you. Please understand that my beliefs have always been that Jehovah, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are not three persons in one. If I am wrong in my understanding then I think the only way I can be convinced is through a debate using Biblical references where both sides can state their points and counter-points. I also understand that when two imperfect humans discuss a topic with opposing views that are held so dear to their heart, that a debate can turn argumentative. So if I appear at any time to appear argumentative, I apologize in advance and ask that you show me some patience and understanding. I will pay you the same courtesy. Also, please do not take my view points in any way as defending the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

    I hope to have an open, frank, and friendly debate on this topic.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    One thing that I want to get out of the way right here in the beginning, is that I have never felt that Jesus is unimportant. And to be fair, the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses do not either. This is a claim that I have heard my entire life, and it really is a deluded and false claim. Both I and JWs believe that the only way to Salvation is through faith in Jesus Ransom Sacrifice. There is no other way, certainly, not through works (but that is another topic).

    Jesus is the first born and the only begotten (only direct creation) of Jehovah. Thus all of the rest of creation was carried out through Jesus as Jehovah’s master worker. Thus, it was a huge sacrifice on Jesus’ behalf because he had to lower himself to become a perfect human on earth. And it was a great sacrifice on Jehovah’s part because he had to offer his only begotten son, whom he loved very much, to experience the berating of imperfect humans and a painful death at their hands. Jesus was placed by Jehovah above all creation and is the King of his Heavenly Kingdom.

    I have not quoted scripture because I simply wanted you have a basic overview of my beliefs on this topic. I would assume that as we discuss individual items we would delve deeply in the scriptures for both sides of the debate. I look forward to this.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    One last thought.

    I have my entire life heard arguments for and against the Trinity. And in my experience I have found that on both sides of this argument that their are sincere people who love Jehovah and Jesus and live in accordance with their faith.

    So I have always asked myself, what really is the fundamental difference between my belief and those who believe in the Trinity.

    My understanding of the Trinity (and correct me if I am wrong) is that Jehovah, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three separate persons that make up a single God. That their is however a hierarchy, the Father (Jehovah) obviously is higher then the Son (Jesus). But ultimately, all three are one God. And, I suppose that would mean that none of the three persons were ever created, they have always been.

    Is that completely different from my understanding? The Father (Jehovah) is higher then the Son (Jesus) and they are “One” in purpose since Jesus perfectly carries out the will of his Father. One big difference is that my understanding of scripture tells me that Jehovah created Jesus and placed him above all other creation. And so, while Jesus is my savior and King, it is to Jehovah alone that I give exclusive devotion. Jesus did the same and so I follow his example. And I suppose the other big difference is my understanding of the Holy Spirit. I do not view the Holy Spirit as a person, but rather God’s active force. Basically, as Jehovah’s power personified. So, in a sense, Jehovah and the Holy Spirit are ONE, in the same sense that my strength and abilities are a part of me.

    So yes, there are differences in our beliefs. But I think the biggest difference is simply in our heads. The word TRINITY and specifically the ARGUMENT ITSELF seems to be a bigger divider between us then the differences in our understanding.

    Please let me know your thoughts on this matter. If this is not the correct forum for us to debate the specific points of our understanding of God, then please let me know so we can discuss elsewhere. Thanks.

    If anyone else has any input on this debate I would like to hear from you as well. Open discussion of God’s Word can only lead to good things.

  45. Brad says:

    Brother Michael,

    That is my understanding of the gospel as well. We are in agreement on this then.

    Thanks

  46. shane says:

    Romans 10:9-13 NWT

    9.For if you publicity declare that word in your own mouth, that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved.
    10.For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation.
    11.For the scriptures says: “None that rests his faith on him will be disappointed.”
    12.For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for there is the same Lord over all, who is rich to all those calling upon him.
    13.For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”

    These verses are all one complete thought that Paul is writing. All verses start with the word “for” this links them together. In verse 9 Paul calls Jesus “Lord”. He continues that thought all the way through verse 13. The Watchtower has changed “Lord” in verse 13 to “Jehovah” in the NWT. Paul is saying to call on the name of Jesus not Jehovah. Calling on the name of Jehovah will not save you. In the Kingdom Interlinear the word “Lord” is translated as “Lord” in the Greek in verse 13.

    Acts 4:10-12 NWT

    10.let it be known to all of you and to all that people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you impaled but whom God raised up from the dead, by this one does this man stand here sound in front of you.
    11.This is ‘the stone that was treated by you builders as of no account that has become the head of the corner.’
    12.Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”

    According to Peter there is no other name given by which we can be saved. Would the Apostle Paul contradict the Apostle Peter? Which one should we believe? The New World Translation contradicts itself and is flawed at best.

  47. Steve Klemetti says:

    Shane,

    Romans is a quote from Joel, which contained Jehovah’s name.

    Acts is stating that salvation comes through Jesus’ sacrifice.

    You need to understand the contexts, not just the words.

  48. Brad,
    In response to your statement that you believe the gospel, my questions would be:

    a. Why does one need to be saved; or put another way, what is salvation?
    b. How is one saved?
    c. Why did Jesus come to earth?

  49. shane says:

    I understand it is a quote from the Old Testament. In “context” Paul is speaking of Jesus and not Jehovah. Paul is speaking one thought in Romans. So why would Paul say we must call on the name Jehovah when Peter says that Jesus is the only name we can be saved? It is not the name of Jehovah.

    What does a person need to do to have eternal life?

    The Witnesses I have spoken with have told me that in order to have eternal life my good works would have to outweigh the bad. I had to hope that at the judgment that Jehovah would forgive me if I didn’t do enough “good things”. Reading the materials they have given me and some of the others that I have acquired it seems like for me to have eternal life I have to: take in knowledge of Jehovah, do good works, and be a member of the Watchtower to name a few. All of these things are works and all of this is “another Gospel”. What does the Apostle Paul say about another Gospel?

    Galatians 8:10 NWT
    However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond what we declared to you as good news, let him be accursed.

    I spent 10 years of my life thinking that my salvation (eternal life) was dependent on my “good works”. It was 10 years of misery. Always thinking that God was going to strike me down at the least little slip up. Praise God! He shown me the truth.

    Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

    Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    Christians are secure in their salvation. They do not have the wrath of God appointed to them. We are now at peace with God. Every real Christian has eternal life. We are no longer enemies of God.

    The book of Galatians is the best book about how Christians are saved by faith in Jesus alone and not by works. If you are struggling with works/faith, read the book of Galatians.

  50. Brad says:

    Steve Klemetti,

    I asked you a question earlier and would very much like to hear you thoughts on my question.

    Here is what I said in my earlier post:

    Steve: It is true that each one has an accounting before Jehovah. So, your statement that you were not the one that wrote past articles therefore you have no responsibility in what was written is true. But, you also made the statement, who cares about what the WTBTS or the “Society” thinks confuses me. While it is true that there have been, and continue to be, multiple legal corporations that are used by Jehovah’s Witnesses, to most peoples understanding, the “Society” equates to the organization that is known as Jehovah’s Witnesses. Particularly, it is used as an alias for the Governing Body. The term “Society” is used within the congregation by brothers and sisters all the time when referring to the source of the literature that is received, also known as “food at the proper time”. Can you please explain this to me?

    I am not, and I will not, attack you for your answer. I am just confused and would like to better understand.

    Thanks
    __________________________________________________________________________
    Brother Michael,

    Here is my understanding based on your questions.

    a. Why does one need to be saved; or put another way, what is salvation?

    We need to be saved because we have inherited sin from Adam. Adam, a perfect man, made a decision to disobey Jehovah’s commandments. This caused sin to enter into the world and thus death through sin. Since we are decedents from Adam we all are imperfect and have inherited sin.

    In Israel animal sacrifices were made to cover over ones sin. But this was a continual offering that had to made. Jesus sacrifice, he died a perfect man, ended the old law covenant, and perfectly covers the sins of all those putting faith in his ransom. Obviously, this means that we also have to live in accord with our faith, not taking his sacrifice for granted or as an excuse to commit sin.

    It is only through Jesus that we are forgiven our sin. And it is only by means of his sacrifice that we will one day be made perfect.

    b. How is one saved?

    One is saved by putting faith in Jesus ransom sacrifice. Please see also my answer to your first question.

    c. Why did Jesus come to earth?

    Jesus came to earth to offer himself up a as a ransom sacrifice to cover the sins of men. It took a perfect man to offset the sin of Adam, who at the time was also a perfect man. God is Justice, so this makes perfect sense.

    Please let me know if my views on these topics are out of line with your understanding of scripture.

    Thanks

  51. Steve Klemetti says:

    Shane said: “The Witnesses I have spoken with have told me that”

    Why do people base what they believe about the Witnesses on “The Witnesses I have spoken with” rather than on the Bible itself?

    Brad asked: “It is true that each one has an accounting before Jehovah.”

    No. We are all sinners and as such are deserving of death.

    Also many Witnesses and non-Witnesses focus too much on the governing body and they don’t build up their own faith and understanding. The fact is that Jesus is going to do what his father wills and he is not dependent on what humans say or do. He is just dependent on what he and his father said. So I stick with that.

  52. Brad says:

    Steve Klemetti

    I would like to get more information from you on multiple topics. Do you have the time?

  53. shane says:

    Shane said: “The Witnesses I have spoken with have told me that”

    It just not what they have said, it is what the Watchtower literature says.

    They teach that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. You will not find that in the Bible. It is what the Aid to Bible Understanding teaches. That in itself is another gospel. I have read that for myself from the copy of Aid to Bible Understanding that was my wifes grandmothers.

    The literature also teaches that all religions outside of the Jehovah’s Witnesses is part of the Babylon religion and that those people in those religions will not have eternal life. The Bible does not teach that. Thus making what the Watchtower teaches another gospel.

    So according to what Paul has written in Galations 1:8-9 the Jehovah’s Witnesses are cursed by the very god they think they are witnessing about.

    The blood of Jesus doesn’t just cover our sins, it takes them away.

    Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins………….Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

    So if you believe that faith in Jesus alone will save you, then why stay in an organization that teaches and preaches a false gospel?

    Acts1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

    John20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

    Why doesn’t Jesus rebuke Thomas for idolatry?

  54. Steve Klemetti says:

    Shane said :”They teach that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. You will not find that in the Bible.”

    Shane, who really cares? Not I.

    If we teach Jesus is Michael and he is not. It matters not. Believing that he is does not save us and if he is not, does not condemn us. So your focusing on that only confuses YOU.

    The reason you do not accept it is that if he is archangel, he is not God. So you are denying that based on another idea.

    “That in itself is another gospel.”

    No it is the gospel or good news. Jesus is Michael because Rev 12 says Michael does what Jesus was to do in Gen 3:15.

    That is the beginning and the ending of the gospel.

    “The literature also teaches that all religions outside of the Jehovah’s Witnesses is part of the Babylon religion and that those people in those religions will not have eternal life.”

    That is true.

    “The Bible does not teach that.”

    Sure it does. If other religions were acceptable to Jehovah God then why did he set out the law to place a wall around his people? Why did he eliminate the Canaanites and others? Why did he send his one son to fulfill that true religion?

    Thomas was not an inspired speaker so what he said is not relevant.

    He knew that his God was not standing before him because his God can not die. Jesus died.

  55. Brad says:

    Steve,

    Is there any way for me to contact you directly? I have some questions that I really could use some guidance on.

    Thanks

  56. shane says:

    My bad about “The Bible does not teach that.” as far as Babylon goes. What I meant was that the Bible doesn’t say you have to be a member of the Jehovah’s Witnesses to have eternal life.

    Bad proof reading on my part.

    Yes it does matter who Jesus is. There are many different Jesus’ out there. There is only one that can save you.

    2Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

    The Apostle Paul was clear that there would be those that preach another Jesus than the true Jesus. If he felt is was important enough to warn the church at Corinth wouldn’t it be an important matter?

    The Kingdom Interlinear
    John 20:28(Greek translation left hand collumn) Answered Thomas and he said to him The Lord of me and the God of me.

    Here Thomas calls Jesus “the Lord” and “the God”. there is only one true God. If Jesus is not God then Thomas is in fact committing idolatry and Jesus is the worse off for not rebuking him and accepting what Thomas is calling him. That also would have been considered blasphemy and they both would have been stoned.

    By the way the person speaking to John in the first chapter of Revelation is Jesus it is not Jehovah.

    Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

  57. Steve Klemetti says:

    Brad,

    sklemetti@softhome.net

    Shane: “Yes it does matter who Jesus is. There are many different Jesus’ out there. ”

    No, there aren’t many Jesus’ out there. There was only one.

    Shane: “Here Thomas calls Jesus “the Lord” and “the God””

    Well, that is his problem and not mine. He was confused.
    Maybe Jesus did correct him, The Bible does not say everything.

    But what it does say is the ones who are not confused such as Jesus’ father himself when Jehovah 3 times from heaven said that Jesus was his son and he had approved him.

    And when Jesus said in John 3:16 that he was the onlybegotten son of God.

  58. shane says:

    I believe that Jesus died for my sins.
    I put my trust in Him as my savior.
    Though I am not a Jehovah’s Witness.

    Is faith in Jesus enough for me to be saved from the wrath of God?
    If it is not, then what else must I do?
    I don’t want to hear Jesus say “depart from me”.

  59. Steve said:

    Shane said :”They teach that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. You will not find that in the Bible.”

    Shane, who really cares? Not I.

    If we teach Jesus is Michael and he is not. It matters not. Believing that he is does not save us and if he is not, does not condemn us. So your focusing on that only confuses YOU.

    Oh how wrong you are Steve. You may not care now, but on the Day of Judgment you will be singing a different tune.

    It does matter who Jesus is, and this is the crux of why there is no salvation in the JW organization. You see, the JW Jesus (a false Christ that Jesus warned us to beware of, as many will come around) cannot save because he is a created being. And in your case, he’s Michael the Archangel. Your Jesus is not God, and thus he was not the God-Man, the only possible mediator between God and man.

    The JW Jesus simply cannot save. He is a false idol that you cannot honor “even as you honor the father” (John 5:23) because he is just an angel.

    Whereas the Jesus of the Bible, the Jesus of John, Paul, and even Thomas who recognized Him as Lord and God (John 20:28), and the Jesus of 2,000 years of Christian history reveals, announces, and testifies that He is God, creator of the universe, before Abraham was–He was (the I am), and who says “unless you believe that ‘I am,’ you will die in your sins” (John 8:24).

    Lest you put your faith in the real Jesus and not false Christs, you too will die without a savior, for God purchased the Church with HIS OWN BLOOD, not the blood of an angel (Acts 20:28, Revelation 5:9).

    – The Pilgrim

  60. Hi Brad,
    Thanks for your answers. Yes, I agree that we inherited sin from Adam, or more correctly stated, we inherited a sin nature from Adam. That is, all men from Adam until today (except for Jesus) were born of the seed of man, and as such inherited this Adamic sin nature. A nature that is hardwired in the flesh of mankind no different than the nature to love slop and wallowing in the mire is hardwired in a pig. And it is due to this nature that all mankind loves darkness (i.e. sin) rather than light (Jn 3:19), and lives according to his fleshly/lustful desires (Eph 2:3) as directed by his desperately wicked heart (Jer 17:9).

    The important thing to note is that this Adamic nature cannot in any way, shape or form be changed by a work of the flesh. That is, one cannot alter this nature one iota through good deeds, acts of charity, door-to-door evangelism, Bible study, prayer, or even by stopping all sin (as if such a thing were possible). For these things would no more change the nature of man, than would giving a bath and perfuming to a dirty sow change her nature.

    Sure, she will look mighty spiffy and smell like a rose, but has this changed her nature? Not one bit for the moment you set her free, she will find the nearest pig sty and wallow in it caring not a whit for the “whitewashing” of the outside of the tomb that was performed on her flesh and not her heart. This whitewashing being a picture of dead religion that falsely teaches that through works of the flesh, man can make himself right with God.

    The truth as Jesus taught is that outward religion does not change a man, rather that he must be born again; he must receive a new nature, for that which is flesh is flesh, and that which is spirit is spirit. For it is through this new birth that a new heart is received whereby God has written his law, no longer on external tablets of stone (i.e. Ten Commandments) as with Israel, but rather on the internal new fleshly heart (Heb 8:6-13, Heb 10:7-21).

    This IS the New Covenant which has replaced the Old Covenant. For it is written:

    And I [the LORD] will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh. (Ezek 11:19)

    Likewise it is written:

    A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Eze 36:26-27)

    As you can see in these verses by the pronoun “I”, it is God who does this work.

    Finally, Jesus did much more than simply “ransom” men. Rather, he who knew or committed no sin was made to be sin so that the saints of God “might be made the righteousness of God in him.” (II Cor 5:21) For it was Jesus who took upon himself all of the sins of his sheep; that is he bore their specific sins to the cross as their substitute for it is written the soul that sinneth, it shall surely die. This is what the Old Testament sacrifices prefigure; the righteous having to die for the guilty. The Day of Atonement being a perfect example where the scapegoat had laid upon his head all of the sins of the people as he bore their iniquities. This picturing exactly what Jesus did at the cross.

    Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. (Isa 53:4-5)

    The person who believes in Jesus is a “new creation” where they receive imparted unto them his righteousness so that the person is reconciled to God and “…justified by his blood, [and]… shall be saved from wrath through him.” (Rom 5:9) The believer now justified or made right before God as a free gift, not by their works, but rather by what Christ Jesus accomplished.

  61. Steve Klemetti says:

    The Pilgrim said:”You may not care now, but on the Day of Judgment you will be singing a different tune.”

    But there is no ‘Day of Judgment’.

    “It does matter who Jesus is,”

    Yes, it does matter who Jesus is. But if people believe he is Michael the archangel and he is not, changes nothing.

    The son of Jehovah God still died on Nisan 14 and was resurrected Nisan 16. That is what saves us. Any other name he had in have or didn’t have matters not.

    Just admit that you do not want to believe that because if he is Michael the archangel, then he can not be God. So you do not believe that because you are stumbled by your other belief.

    You say that the JW Jesus can not save because he is created. You have that backwards. That is why he can save, because he is not God. God becoming a man and dying can not save. God’s son as John 3:16 said, did become a perfect man and died for us.

    A God-man is not a mediator between God and man because he is God. That is why the trinity can not save.

    Do you understand that?
    John 3:16 is so simple. God gave his son, not himself.
    God’s son is not God and he is not sinful human. That is the only way that Jesus can be between God and man and save.

    That is why the trinity can not save.

  62. Dear Steve:

    You continue to reveal so much of your theology; thank you. You have done more to reveal the false theology of the Watchtower organization than all the posts we could publish.

    I’m grateful for your honesty. In an age when everyone’s trying to play the middle, hide in the gray area, and blur the lines about absolutes, you have not waivered. I am thankful for that.

    The problem you have is that you still cannot comprehend that if you trust in a created being who claims to be Jesus who only resurrected as a spirit creature (whose body still remained dead and no one knows where it is today) then you DO NOT have the Jesus of the Bible regardless of how much you keep declaring otherwise.

    The only reason that (the true) Jesus can save is because He is deity. He is the only one who was worthy and capable to bridge the gap between the Father and man. This has been understood from the Apostles till today in Christianity. It’s the JW’s (who claim to be Christians) who refuse to accept these axioms and even had to go so far as to come up with their own ‘translation’ to provide proof-texts for their false theology.

    We at DefCon are not budging from our position (as I don’t suspect you will either). But again, I am thankful for your candidness.

    – The Pilgrim

  63. Steve Klemetti says:

    Arianism, closer to the truth than trinitarianism.

    Arianism, based on the Bible,

    Trinitarianism, based on a counsel and creed.

  64. Arianism, closer to the truth than trinitarianism.

    Arianism, based on the Bible,

    Trinitarianism, based on a counsel and creed.

    Well Steve, you have proven your ignorance of Christianity and Christian history. Not because you may not be an educated man, but because you have chosen to be brainwashed and manipulated by the Watchtower organization in matters of eternal consequence. This is evidenced by your continued regurgitation of JW lies.

    Trinitarianism was no more established by a “counsel” than the Watchtower was established by the God of the Bible. Unfortunately you cannot think for yourself outside of what the Watchtower has put in your head (this is why cults are so dangerous). All free-thought is extinguished in place of proof-texts, half-truths, deceptions, and outright lies. And if what you said yesterday needs to be fixed, just change it and call it “new light.”

    It is for this reason that I suggest you no longer bother wasting your time here on DefCon. We are not buying the false doctrines of the Watchtower and you have proven unteachable and one who is not open to reasonable discourse on the issues; instead you have resorted to trite little platitudes void of substance and any resemblance of truth.

    Refer to 1-3 of our Rules of Engagement if you have any further questions.

    – The Pilgrim

  65. Dear Brad:

    If you’re still there (and still open to discussion) I’d like to direct your attention to some messages on the doctrine of the Trinity that I thought were profound and very helpful in understanding the Christian stance on this doctrine.

    My recommendation is that if you are truly seeking to understand this more–what Christians really believe about the Trinity and why–and not just take the Watchtower’s explanation of what we believe, then I suggest this fantastic series below by Don Green. After all, who better to learn what Christians believe about the Trinity than Christians, right?

    If you don’t feel that you can devote the time to all five messages, I highly recommend the first and the last!

    John 1:1 and the Jehovah’s Witnesses

    Jesus declares His deity

    My Lord, and my God

    An introduction to the Trinity

    The Trinity and the Old Testament

    Sincerely,
    – The Pilgrim

  66. The Truth says:

    All JW’s please read the following:

    The origins of the Bible and the true scholarship thereof is evident. Yet you have not chosen to seek the truth, unfortunately you therefore accept lies. These lies have solidified in your minds and hearts by the power of Satan and your inability to seek the truth unbiasedly. You have been blinded by the teachings of a man-made system who sadly has changed the everlasting Gospel into a lie. Ask yourself why was your New World translation necessary when the Bible was canonized many years previously? Obviously it was changed to support the errors of your belief system!

    The only way to heaven is through the perfect completed work of God the Son on the cross, not through your own works. Yet your New World Translation has missed both the real Jesus and heaven too. Your very own so-called Bible scholar has went on record asking the WTBTS to remove all references to his translation work as it didn’t reflect his real interpretation. As far as your New World translation stands, it is spurious at best and outright dishonest at worst.

    Unfortunately, the god of this world – Satan – has blinded your eyes lest you see the light of the glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ and trust Him alone to be saved from your sins.

    I have personally seen the devastating effects of your false doctrine played out in the lives of many JW’s. Many live double lives and have no true power from God the Holy Spirit to resist the world, their flesh and the devil/demons. Many are sad and feel a deep void in their lives. They have not filled the “God-shaped hole” in their souls thru a love relationship with the true and living Lord of the universe – Jesus. Nor do they have any real knowledge about Jesus who is God in human flesh…the God-man. They call themselves Christians, yet they have a false Christ and a non-biblical view of God. They are merely empty shells of humanity passing their time living with the skin of the truth stuffed with a lie!

  67. mad9cat333 says:

    Reading these posts, it seems to me that Steve could not really be called a true “Jehovah’s Witness”, since he doesn’t prescribe to the sole authority of the Watchtower Society, which they require for ‘salvation’. So it seems useless to continue arguing with him using the obvious answers to the Jehovah’s Witness views and doctrines since he doesn’t even believe in the central tenents of the religion.
    Just my thought.

  68. MARTIN SOSEBEE says:

    I was JW for 35 yr.All devotion is based on fear of death at aemegeddon.Thus all date predictions.No early prophets used pyramidology.They never spoke falsely.All waited on YAHWEH,knowing they would die.Watchtower is False from Armstrong,Barbour,Jonas Wendell,Storrs Russell especially,7th grade grad,Rutherford,sexist,drunk,Franz,lying under oath,I mean TACKING,spiritual warfare,Hiding CHILD MOLESTERS for 35 years.JUST THINK THEY CLAIM GODS ONLY ORGANIZATION.WHAT TRASH just TO SELL MAGS.I DON’T FEAR ANY OF THEM.THEY TRULY ARE NOT CHRISTIANS,GOOD WATCHTOWER WORSHIPERS,SHOULD CHANGE BIBLE TO READ,HOLY WATCHTOWER SCRIPTURES.FREE AT LAST.I TRUST IN A LOVING MERCIFUL GOD,NOT WATCHTOWER.WHERE ARE YOU GONNA GO?WHO ELSE IS DOING THE WORK

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