The founding false prophetess of Seventh-day Adventism offered the following doosey of a heresy on page 422 of the book The Great Controversy:
It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed. When the high priest, by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scapegoat. When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of his ministration, he will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty. The scapegoat was sent away into a land not inhabited, never to come again into the congregation of Israel. So will Satan be forever banished from the presence of God and His people, and he will be blotted from existence in the final destruction of sin and sinners.
Rank heresy! Utter blasphemy!
Jesus alone had our iniquity placed upon Him (Isaiah 53:6); He who knew no sin became sin on our behalf (2 Corinthians 5:21); and it was Jesus Christ–God in the flesh–who bore our sins in his body on the cross (1 Peter 2:24).
Pilgrim
thejunglemissionary
Bill
fourpointer
Manfred
abidingthroughgrace
Chris Hohnholz
Well, if you’re going to make up doctrine, at least this one touches on something in Scripture. That’s a key element if you want people to believe it.
As Charles Stanley puts it in his book, “Eternal Security” (a mostly good study of the title topic), the parable of the talents shows that some Christians without any good works will spend their time in eternity with Christ in the “outer darkness” of Heaven. He says that the 3rd slave is not cast into hell – he’s called “slave”, which term Paul used to describe himself, so that means the 3rd (wicked) slave is a Christian.
What poppycock! There is no darkness in Heaven. “Slave” is not a technical term; the context tells us the meaning. Many slaves of darkness are described in Scripture. Wailing and gnashing of teeth are not descriptive of sheep at rest in the Savior, even though Stanley claims those who “escape as by fire” will experience such.
The wicked author of the SDA ain’t the only one drawing people into falsehood with near-truth. Satan has been misleading folks with such deception since the beginning.
May God have mercy on us and keep us from evil.
im sorry you feel that way about my church… im sure if you read with a willing heart, seeking Gods guidance you will see that it is the truth! i believe that all that text was trying to say is that our sins will be blamed on the devil who is the father of all lies! not that the devil will redeem us!!! why would he want to!? what kind of christian doctrine would tell its believers that the devil has redeemed us from our sins!? that is not what we believe, only Christ can redeem us but that does not put the blame of our sin on him for Christ is incorruptable!!! i hope you understand this, im only 17 soo i dont have as much theological information but i do believe that it is the truth and hope that i have explained it in a way thats adequate despite my inferiority to you. God Bless you
Dear Mimi:
Thank you for stopping by and thank you for your comment.
You said, “i believe that all that text was trying to say is that our sins will be blamed on the devil who is the father of all lies!”
This is not what EGW was saying here. Read it again. She was using the reference of the old Jewish Scapegoat taking the sins of the people, then equating that to Satan, “upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed.” Nothing about blaming him for anything, but clearly placing Satan in the position that Jesus actually took. This is very, very disturbing, and it should be very alarming to you.
You also said that, “. . . only Christ can redeem us but that does not put the blame of our sin on him for Christ is incorruptable.”
The “blame” for our sin does not fall on Christ. This was the presupposition you used to justify EGW saying our sins would be placed upon Satan. However, our sins were in fact placed upon Jesus because He was the only one that could pay our ransom; our insurmountable debt of sin against a holy God that no man could ever erase by anything we can do.
Please take a moment and read the following Scripture carefully:
All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him. Isaiah 53:6
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:21
and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. 1 Peter 2:24
Sincerely and respectfully,
- The Pilgrim
P.S. You may also be interested in these videos.
thanks for your services may god bless you.
I thank God first because he is the auther and the finisher of our faith.May we prayerfully study the old santuary services that where conducted by the Israelites in the old testament all where but a symbolism of the true lamb to come.
Dear Pilgram
In your haste to discredit Ellen White you have failed to do your home work.
Seventh Day Adventist and Ellen White are absolute about the truth of Christ being our Saviour and Redeemer from our sins. Christ was always portrayed as the Lamb slaughtered for our sins but He was never portrayed as the scape goat. The scape goat has a totally different role than the lamb or other chosen sacrificial animals accepted for offerings.
For one to read other’s writings only for the purpose of destroying and tearing down is not a service at all but a disservice to humanity.
There are so many evil sources dedicated to leading people away from Christ and you attack the children of God? The Seventh Day Adventist do an excellent job and service to declare the true Saviour Jesus Christ.
Whether you completely agree with someone or not, attack Satan and his deceptions and not other Christians.
May God arrest you and bless you for His true service.
Dear Stu:
It’s not haste. SDA does not stand the test of a Scriptural critique.
And in this particular case, EGW’s doctrine is way off. She is attributing the work of Christ to that of Satan. Where in Scripture do you find this falsehood:
For those interested in further info on SDA, check out this documentary and check out ExAdventists.com as well as Good News for Adventists. For more on SDA’s beliefs such as their denial of Hell, the denial of the immortal soul, their belief in soul sleep, and that ever so wicked JW doctrine that Jesus is Michael the Archangel, check out CARM here.
Sincerely,
- The Pilgrim
Hi :)
I have a question. I know someone that is into the SDA belief system but at times it seems that they believe in the same things I believe but I am very concerned about what I can do to witness to this person. He always sends me this reading:
trumpetcallofgod.com….
For some reason I don’t see any Bible scriptures within the text and I want to be able to witness to him about Jesus Christ being the Messiah not just a prophet or angel.
Thank you :)
Jamila,
Lost people need the pure gospel of Jesus – not a critique of their cult’s doctrines.
Jamila:
As with all clever and (numerically) successful cults, they often sound like they believe what the Scriptures say. And on certain points, they often do. The problem lies in where they depart from God’s word.
Cults are quick to adapt to any canned “evangelism plan” to reach them with the truth. So as a general rule, what I find advantageous in dealing with any cultist is to: 1) First and foremost understand the Bible, particularly the Gospel, very well (Who God is including His character, attributes, and ways; the supremacy of God’s word; man’s condition and dilemma; the necessity of Christ’s atoning work on the Cross; how Jesus’ sacrifice is applied to man; the new nature and the necessity of faith, repentance, obedience and sanctification), 2) Understand where their beliefs err from the truth of God’s word (But use great care in this, being rock solid in the Bible first, and do so only in prayer and with your full spiritual armor on, that you be not carried away by their deceptions).
Then, proceed to show them Christ in your life. In engaging others with God’s truth, we must take our example from Jesus, and those in Acts who were led by the Holy Spirit. There is no universal “formula” for this, but we must be sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit within us to guide us as He did those in Acts.
For starters in item #2 above, check out the info on this site regarding Seventh Day Adventism.
Hope that helps.
In regard to the unbiblical, blasphemous SDA teaching that Satan blots out our sins (in SDA theology, sins are now only conditionally-forgiven until Satan blots them out with his meritorious annihilation), since when is Satan typified to be “without spot or blemish” as BOTH goats needed to be on the annual Day of Atonement? Why could one even remotely entertain the notion that Satan is somehow our final sin-bearer?
Amazingly and sadly, Seventh-day Adventists claim to have two sin-bearers; namely, Jesus and Satan. Thus, in Adventism, Satan has a salvific role to perform for the saints of all ages. Without Satan finally “blotting out” their conditionally-forgiven sins, there can be no heaven for anyone. This really makes Satan the most important being in our salvation. Can heresy ever get any worse than this?
The SDA scapegoat teaching would not be possible in biblical Christianity because one’s soul goes to heaven or hell at death. Official Adventism has woven an assorted web of deception–one lie based upon another and one heresy to teach yet another heresy. Only Satan could have created such a system of belief with intentional ambiguity and complexity. It is mind-boggling how the unbiblical SDA beliefs are meshed together to support each other–making dozens of false teachings appear as biblical. It is akin to one telling a lie to cover up yet another lie.
A former SDA minister,
Dennis Fischer
E-mail: dfministries@gmail.com
Last week Rose Publishing (www.rose-publishing.com) came out with a glossy, concise, 14-page, pull-apart pamphlet entitled “Ten Questions and Answers on Seventh-day Adventism.” It also contains a glossary that shows how SDA members use Christian terms but mean something else.
In just a few minutes, you will grasp the basic problems with the teachings of the Seventh-day Adventist prophetess, Ellen G. White. Instead of reading a whole book about Adventism, this pamphlet suffices for factual information. Simply call 1-800-532-4278 to place your order for 30, 300, or 3,000 copies. Buy ten pamphlets and ask for two more FREE. Unit price is only $3.99.
Dennis Fischer
I have listened to the videos that portray ex-adventist pastors speaking against the scape-goat doctrine of SDAdventism. If they were once genuine pastors or ministers of our church, and I have no reason to believe they are not, they were either completely ignorant of the true teachings regarding this doctrine, or they were deliberately misconstruing the truth. And statements as made above that Adventists say one thing but mean another is insulting and offensive.
Allow me to state some absolute facts of that doctrine that somehow, whether ignorantly or deliberately, have been left out of the mix.It would be more helpful to all your readers to judge rightly if you would present our doctrines as we teach them, THEN use the scriptures to pick them apart if you can. But to take quotes out of context as had been done in those videos, and simply state that such’n'such a doctrine is heretical (eg Michael the Archangel) without explaining WHY we believe as we do,THEN explaining why we are wrong, is dishonest.
So, to the scape goat.
1. Adventism stands without qualification on Jesus being the sole redeemer, the sole propitiation, the one and only hope and Saviour through His substitutionary death on the cross. He alone bore our sins on Calvary, He through the grace and mercy of God made the way for man to be forgiven and reborn into the glorious kingdom of God and His Son.
2. The second goat, was not slain in the OT service, and thus made no atonement for anyone.
3. Satan must be made accountable for not only his own personal sin, but also the sins he caused to be committed by mankind through his deceptions and temptations. When Adam and Eve first transgressed, each blamed someone else. Adam blamed Eve and by inference God for creating her, Eve blamed the serpent. When Eve blamed the serpent God did not rebuke Eve for being wrong, in fact God agreed with her that the serpent must bear some responsibility for having deceived her. While Adam and Eve were also to be made to accept and suffer the consequences of their sin (ie the pain in childbirth etc) the sacrifice of the Lamb made atonement for them; they were clothed by God’s righteousness; their nakedness and guilt were covered; and through repentance and faith in the blood of the Lamb they will be in heaven by our side worshipping and thanking Jesus for His sacrifice. The serpent meanwhile was not covered by that sacrifice. But he will certainly be made to bear responsibility for the part he played in the Garden of Eden, as he will be made to accept responsibility for the part he has played in all the crime and destruction that has come upon this earth since. (John 8:44; Romans 6:16; 1 John 3:8) THIS is what Adventists believe happens to the scapegoat. The part HE HAS PLAYED in the committing of transgression is laid upon him and he is made to bear that burden of guilt, alive, until he is destroyed.
4. Jesus bore our responsibility.
5. Satan will bear his own, NOT OURS.
6. The transaction that brings the sin upon Satan is accomplished AFTER the atonement has been completed for the people.
7. There is no vicarious atonement involved in Satan’s bearing of his own sin.
8. We wholeheartedly agree with you that any suggestion or inference that Satan in any degree is OUR sin bearer is abhorrent and absolutely sacrilegious.
For any ministry such as yours to imply that Seventh Day Adventists believe anything else other than what I have outlined above is at best lacking in good research and study, and at worst dishonest and does damage to those who through believing your inferences may miss a legitimate opportunity to receive Christ through genuine Adventism that would lead them to Christ.
As an ex-Seventh Day Adventist, I can say with absolute certainty that SDA’s do teach that Satan is our sin bearer, as taught by E.G White. Any SDA who denies this doesn’t understand their own belief system. Mrs White is the final authority of all matters of faith & practice in the SDA Church, not the Scriptures!
Furthermore, they teach that “Sunday observance” is the mark of the Beast, & that during the “Time of Trouble” (Great Tribulation) 7th Day Sabbath observance will be the real test whether one is saved or not. To make matters even worse, the Holy Spirit will be withdrawn during this time, & this little flock of faithful SDA’s will be left all alone not knowing whether they’re saved; it will be a terrible time!
Another one of Mrs White’s teachings that she claims she got from the LORD, is that an habitual meat eater won’t enter the kingdom of Heaven. I could go on quoting many more of their strange, unbiblical beliefs, but this post would turn into a book.
Many years ago, as a Seventh Day Adventist, I decided to read the Scriptures for myself, apart from SDA interpretation…I was blown away by what the Scriptures actually said! So many SDA doctrines were totally disolved as I compared them with the Holy Scriptures. I then had a real choice to make…SDA doctrines as authoritavely taught by E.G White or what the Bible actually said…The Bible won hands down!
Seventh Day Adventism has put on “public face” trying to show that it is just like the rest of us evangelicals, but scratch the surface a little & you’ll discover that they are a cult, with very different beliefs & a different Jesus (2 Cor 11:4) In a nutshell…you go in the front door saved by(false) grace, & out the back door bound up by works. Their god is the Sabbath! That’s their most important doctrine, not Christ!
Nigel,
Many thanks for your testimony. Anything can be an idol – even a day of the week.
My former boss had a similar testimony to yours – she was a cradle Catholic. When illness confined her to bed, she read the Bible and was amazes at what her church had hidden from her about Christ. She recovered a bit, with a sweet testimony of the Lord had saved her. She left the cult of Rome, started studying the Bible, joined an evangelical church – and died of the cancer she had. With joy for the Lord she went, with her family in awe and confused.
Nigel, as you profess to be an ex adventist, then I would expect that you must be able to critique my post above regarding the scapegoat with some accuracy and thoughtfulness. Instead however you simply make a generalisation about SDA teaching that clearly contradicts all that I said above. Who is right. I am an adventist. The above is my understanding of the doctrine of the scapegoat. Am I wrong Biblically, or am I wrong regards adventist teaching? Or perhaps both? Please explain how, because nowhere in my post do I suggest in any way shape or form that Satan is OUR sin-bearer. He is held responsible for the part he has played in tempting us, and for his own rebelliousness, but that is all.
As for the Sabbath comments, it never ceases to astonish me that ex-adventists reject the whole kit and caboodle of adventist teaching. I can understand reticence in accepting the investigative judgement, as that takes a lot more study to to justify Biblically. Although it is there, and we do not need EGW to prove it. But the Sabbath?
Not just Adventists recognise the Sabbath. There are over 400 churches, independent and denominational, that keep the Sabbath in the US alone.
And Sunday is not the mark of the beast. Yet. Not until the secular laws demand general observance. But it HAS been a sign or mark of papal authority since the 5th century, and if prophecy is right and the papacy gains global authority as she had in Europe during the dark ages, then you can bet Sunday will be at the forefront of her global ambitions. At that time the issue will be clear. Keep Sunday in recognition and submission to the beast, or keep the Sabbath in recognition and submission to God. Tradition or God’s commandments. Your choice.
(And some people think I’m confrontational and abrasive)
The Beast is a person, not an institution. Evidence of this is the fact that, among other things, the Beast is referred to as a person and that he is thrown into the Lake of Fire alive. The Mark of the Beast is a physical symbol imprinted on the hand of the forehead; it is visible, not a metaphysical symbol of doing something else.
But mostly, either something is the Mark of the Beast or it is not; it does not make a transition into the Mark. So if going to church on Sunday will ever be the Mark, then it must be the Mark right now; especially with the idea of papal authority. Many areas of the U.S., until recently, had laws banning businesses from being open on Sunday; did it become the Mark of the Beast for a while then stop?
You would think that if Christians were commanded to worship on Saturday there would be a mention of it in the New Testament. The best I can remember all of the Commandments are repeated in the New Testament except for the 4th. You would think that somewhere in all of Paul’s writings he would say something like “all you Christians must worship on Saturday or you are in disobedience and breaking the 4th commandment”.
Thanks for the quot from the Great Controversy. Let us look at the Bible, how many gospels are there? By studying carefully you will discover their is just one gospel and Jesus is the centre. The bible teaches the gospel in types and antitypes.
The Bible presents one gospel from Genesis to Revelation, one plan of salvation for humanity. The Bible calls it “the everlasting gospel” (Revelation 14:6).
Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, ….
“By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice.” Hebrews 11:4.
“Through faith he [Moses] kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood.” Hebrews 11:28.
Your way, O God, is in the sanctuary; Psalm 77:13
The Significance of the Old Testament Sanctuary Services
Every element in the Old Testament ritual system was specifically designed by Christ to illustrate His own work in the plan of salvation. Every lamb that was slain prefigured Christ, the Lamb of God, who would be offered for the sins of the world. Everything the priests did pointed to Jesus, our great High Priest in the courts above.
By contemplating the meaning of the ceremonies he performed, an Israelite could understand the entire gospel of salvation. The gospel of Christ is in the Old Testament illustrated just as clearly as in the New Testament it is proclaimed.
The tabernacle on earth was patterned after the temple in heaven. It consisted of two apartments, the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place.
“And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.
According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it”. Exodus 25:8-9
The Pattern of the sanctuary:
• Remind that the wilderness sanctuary was patterned after the heavenly sanctuary.
• Emphasize that Jesus Christ is the central figure in the heavenly sanctuary.
• Highlight that the services and symbols of the earthly sanctuary pointed to Christ.
The central figure of the sanctuary in heaven is Christ. It is around His life, death, and resurrection that the hope of eternal life is based. Thus, the services and symbols used in the sanctuary on earth pointed to Christ, to the beauty of His character, and to His love and justice.
Everything in the Sanctuary Pointed to Christ
Christ is the Lamb of God that took away the sins of the world (John 1:29)
Christ is the light of the world that lightens every man (John 1:9-12; 8:12)
Christ is the living bread who came down from heaven to give us eternal life (John 6:32-51)
Christ is the mercy seat (propitiation), through whose redemption we have salvation full and complete (Rom 3:24, 25)
Christ is our intercessor against the accusations of Satan (Hebrews 7:25)
Christ is the veil that bore our sins in His flesh (Hebrews 10:19,20)
The Sanctuary Revealed the Fall and Restoration of Man. In Adam, humanity sinned, was defiled, and condemned to death. In Christ, the same humanity was reconciled to God, cleansed from all defilement, and justified to life (Romans 5:18)
Through faith in Christ, sinners experience salvation. This is the good news of the gospel and the truth of righteousness by faith. All this was revealed in the Sanctuary model given to Moses:
The Sanctuary was where God met sinners (Ex. 25:22; 29:42, 43)
Today He meets us in Christ (2 Cor. 5:19)
The Sanctuary was where God revealed Himself to sinners (Ex. 29:46)
Today He reveals Himself to us in Christ (John 14:7-9)
The Sanctuary was where God dwelt with sinners (Ex. 25:8; 29:45, 46)
Today He dwells with us in Christ (Matthew 1:23; John 14:23)
The Sanctuary was where God spoke to sinners (Ex. 29:42; Lev. 1:1)
Today He speaks to us in Christ (Hebrews 1:2; John 8:43, 47)
The Sanctuary was where God accepted sinners (Lev. 1:4)
Today He accepts us in Christ (Ephesians 1:6)
The Sanctuary was where God forgave sinners (Lev. 4:20, 26, 31, 35)
Today He forgives us in Christ (Ephesians 1:7)
A study of the sanctuary reveals three steps in the process: sacrifice, intercession, and cleansing.
Sacrifice
This step was symbolized in the Old Testament by the daily slaying of animals. A perfect lamb without blemish was required, and sacrificed in the courtyard. Every drop of blood that was shed in those rituals pointed to the sacrifice of Jesus for lost mankind. His death paid the full price for our redemption.
1. Lamb, 2. Without blemish, 3. killed at twilight, 4. the Lord’s Passover, 5. Don’t break any bones
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world; Jn 1:29
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1 Peter 1:18
After the penitent sinner has confessed his sins upon the head of the sacrificial animal and taken it’s life (Lev. 4:4,15,24,29) the priest performs one of two kinds of rituals
1. In the case of the sin offering for a fellow priest, or for the whole congregation, the officiating pries sprinkled some of the blood seven times before the veil in the holy place as well as on the horns of the altar of incense. (Lev. 4:6,7, 17,18, 4:27-33)
2. In the case of the sin offering for other individuals, the officiating priest sprinkled the blood on the horns of the altar of burnt offering in the court. Pours out the blood at the base of the altar and then he eats some of the flesh of the sin offering. (Lev. 6:26; 10:17) By eating the flesh, the priest became the sin-bearer. “to bear the guilt..to make an atonement for them.”
Romans 4.7-8
“Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.”
Intercession
This step was symbolized by the daily duties performed by the priests in the holy place, or first apartment of the sanctuary. Incense was continually offered before God, mingled with the prayers of the saints. This represented Christ’s priestly intercession for His people which He began after His ascension to heaven. Through Christ’s first apartment ministry the sinner’s guilt is pardoned, and Christ’s righteousness is imparted to His people.
Cleansing
The third step was illustrated once each year in the Old Testament ceremonies. The tenth day of the seventh month was called the Day of Atonement. It was the day on which the sanctuary was cleansed. It was considered the most solemn and significant event of the year. On that day the whole congregation appeared before the Lord that they might be made “at one” with Him. Sins which had been brought to the sanctuary throughout the year were figuratively removed from it on that day. But those who failed to humble themselves before God were cut off from the people.
On that day the high priest alone appeared before God behind the veil of the Most Holy Place. With him he took the blood of a goat and a censer of coals from the altar of incense. This represented the final phase of Christ’s work in the heavenly sanctuary, performed in “the time of the end.” The work of atonement is not complete until the sanctuary is thus cleansed.
Scripture references to the Old Testament Day of Atonement include Leviticus 16 and Leviticus 23:27-32. Information on the end-time cleansing of the sanctuary is found in Daniel 8:14; Malachi 3:1-5; and Hebrews 8 and 9.
Sacrifice is made, the cleansing blood is applied at the mercy seat as well as at the altar of incense. The sanctuary is cleansed. The priest returns from the cleansing of the sanctuary “when he has made an end of atoning for the tabernacle of meeting and the altar” (Lev. 16:20) Then he goes and places ALL the sins upon the goat who is cast far out, forever banned (this goat is not the sacrifice )
So. A 17 yr old Adventist hit the nail on the head from the beginning. The goat represents satan sent off into the wilderness…kinda sounds familiar…like when satan is sent off to roam the dust earth…interesting…and straight forward.
Remember folks… a prophet is: a teacher, one who has insight and can relate complicated terminology to simple folk. Think about Ellen White as the author of “The Bible for dummies” look in the bible to find…Miriam, deborah, Huldah. etc..approximately 10 mentioned. Also remember that true prophesy is initiated by the Holy Spirit. Which those who give themselves to God all receive in different ways.
Keep it simple.
Shane,
On the Sabbath…
Read: Matthew 12:8, 12; 24:20; Mark 1:21; 2:27-28; 6:2; Luke 4:16, 31; 6:5; 23:56; Acts 13:14, 42, 44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:1-2; 18:4; Hebrews 4:4, 9-10…then decide…Oh, and remember that the Sabbath was created on the 7th day and not during the Ten Commandments…
Want another shocker… We die and rest in the ground until Jesus’ return…we don’t float up to heaven or go to hell (which is non-existent – including purgatory). Read carefully 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17.
James C,
1) Ellen White is a false prophet and most certainly did not have true revelations from God. She may well have followed other spirits, but they were not the Holy Spirit of God.
2) Purgatory – non-existent – we agree here.
3) Hell (non-existent) – sorry, here you are in disagreement with the Word of God. Even the Lord Jesus Christ preached on the matter of hell. Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable, but a recounting of a real account.
4) Soul-sleep – sorry, once again you have been misled by false teaching.
5) Most importantly, Satan does not, never has, never will be able to bear our sins. Once again, SDA is preaching heresy of the grossest order.
The Desert Pastor
Desert Pastor
The two goats represent Christ and Satan and are a prominent part of the Day of Atonement, preadvent judgment.
The contest was to determine, in symbol, who was the true Lord. Both Christ and Satan claim this position. The one to whom it belonged would pay the price of sacrifice to redeem His people from sin.
Just with that…how is Christ the lamb set free(scapegoat) if Christ was sinless? Think about it more until you make a decision on this. I can see the confusion of the “placing sins on it head”
The blood of Christ’s sacrifice as the penalty for the sins of the children of Israel has already been applied in symbol by the sacrifice of the Lord’s goat and the bull. The justice of God in dealing with the sin problem also assigns punishment to Satan as their tempter.
Repost from opening blog:
“When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of his ministration, he will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty. The scapegoat was sent away into a land not inhabited, never to come again into the congregation of Israel. So will Satan be forever banished from the presence of God and His people, and he will be blotted from existence in the final destruction of sin and sinners.” – E.G.W., The great Controversy
Mention of “a land not inhabited” confirms our idea that the abyss Satan is consigned to is the earth desolate of people.
All in all – misplaced semantics for those who only correlate to the cross and not the whole Book and timeline – take a deeper look into Revelations and the end time.
Hell – I meant to mention how it is temporary and does not exist right now. It is metaphorical to the destruction of satan. Most believe Hell is a place that exists right now and people are burning and suffering in it.
WHO IS YOUR SCAPEGOAT?
A misinformed and zealous SDA indicated on this thread that I somehow misrepresented the Seventh-day Adventist position on their scapegoat teaching. Apparently, this Adventist has ignored the “inspired” pen of Ellen White on this matter (see GC, pages 422, 485; Test., Vol. 5, p. 475). The revered SDA prophetess, Ellen White, should resolve any question or lingering doubt he or she may have about this unbiblical, blasphemous teaching. In Adventism, God merely forgives one’s sins CONDITIONALLY until Satan finally BLOTS them out through his meritorious annihilation.
Yes, indeed, Satan must suffer for his own sins, not for the sins of others. However, this is NOT what Seventh-day Adventism teaches. In the truest sense, Adventism teaches that God rewards Satan for his busy deviltry–the more people he can keep from becoming Christians the less suffering he will have to endure for confessed sins that were only conditionally-forgiven. Thus, eternal bliss is ultimately conditional upon the supposed atoning, salvific role of Satan. The idea that the scapegoat (without spot or blemish) represents the devil is a most blasphemous teaching.
Since when is the devil perfect without any spot or blemish? To entertain the notion, for even a moment, that Satan is the reality of the shadow and represents the PERFECT sacrifice of the scapegoat that was left to die outside the gates of Jerusalem for the sins of Israel annually is most unthinkable and repugnant to any Christ-follower. Satan never, ever atoned for the sins of anyone throughout redemptive history. Indeed, the scapegoat (Lev. 16) represented Jesus who died outside of the gates of Jerusalam. Sadly but truly, Adventism claims for have TWO sin-bearers or scapegoats; namely, Christ and Satan. Does heresy ever get any worse than this? Dear friend, who is your scapegoat? Who died outside of the gates of Jerusalem for His people?
A former SDA minister,
Dennis Fischer
Blog: http://notesfromdennisfischer.blogspot.com
E-mail: dfministries@gmail.com
“The best modern scholars agree that [Azazel] designates the personal being to whom the goat was sent, probably Satan. This goat was called the scapegoat.” — Smith’s Bible Dictionary (Atonement Day).
“Azazel is the pre-Mosaic name of an evil personal being placed in opposition to Yahweh.” — Albert Barnes.
“The words, one lot for Jehovah and one for Azazel, require unconditionally that Azazel should be regarded as a personal being, in opposition to Jehovah. . . The Septuagint rendering is correct, . . . ‘averruncus, a fiend, or demon whom one drives away’ (Ewald). We have not to think, however, of any demon whatever, who seduces men to wickedness in the form of an evil spirit, as the fallen angel Azazel is represented as doing in the Jewish writings (Book of Enoch 8:1; 10:10; 13:1ff.), like the terrible . . . Shibe, whom the Arabs of the peninsula of Sinai so much dread (Seetzen, i. pp. 273-4), but of the devil himself, the head of the fallen angels, who was afterwards called Satan; for no subordinate evil spirit could have been placed in antithesis to Jehovah as ‘Azazel’ is here, but only the ruler or head of the kingdom of demons. The desert and desolate places are mentioned elsewhere as the abode of evil spirits (Isa_13:21; Isa_34:14; Mat_12:43; Luk_11:24; Rev_18:2). The desert, regarded as an image of death and desolation, corresponds to the nature of evil spirits, who fell away from the primary source of life, and in their hostility to God devastated the world, which was created good, and brought death and destruction in their train.” — Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament.
In English the R.V and A. R. V. the word is rendered “Azazel”, a transliteration of the Hebrew proper name. Among others among the most important Bible translations that have Azazel as a proper name, thus transliterated rather than translated for ‘scapegoat’, we could quote the Spanish Reina Valera, the French Louis Segond, the Italian Nuova Riveduta and the translation into English from the American Jewish Publication Society for Lev. 16:8.
It appears that if SDAs are indeed heretics as suggested by the owners of this site, God bless them, then we are in good company.
The opponents of our position point out that both goats had to be “perfect”, which would prove that they both represented Christ. But everything related to the Sanctuary service had to be perfect, no matter what their objective was. The people of Israel would not bring a totally defective, handicapped animal to these solemn services only because in the end it would symbolize Satan. That was contrary to the general mindset of everything pertinent to the Sanctuary services.
But now, I have my own questions: The Talmud established that the goats should be the most similar to each other possible (Talmud – Yoma 62a) and so that there was no error of which was the goat “for the Lord” and the one “for Azazel” they put a red string on the horn of the one for Azazel, and another around the neck of the goat “for the Lord.” What reason was there for this careful markings, since they had the same final symbolism–Christ’s atoning work?! Why to “cast lots” if both covered the same basic symbolism, representing the same Person–Jesus Christ? Doesn’t this attitude by itself show that they were put in antithesis, with different symbolic purposes?
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You claim Denis that I am misguided or misinformed. Might I suggest that you are misrepresenting our position…being an ex adventist minister, whether such misrepresentation is deliberate or the result of poor instruction while at seminary, I will leave for your readers to decide.
The Adventist position on the full and final propitiation through the atoning work of Christ at Calvary is made abundantly clear in so many of our publications that to claim we teach otherwise is quite frankly irresponsible. Our fundamental beliefs nos 9and 10 make it abundantly clear that we believe, as I think you do, that Jesus is the SOLE source of salvation. There is simply no way to circumvent our conviction that salvation is secured only through the shed blood of Jesus upon the cross of Calvary.
The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary explains that only placing these factors in due order we can understand that the “goat for Azazel” had no part in the atonement itself. Only when the redeemed ones are guaranteed in heaven, the reprobates are cut out and Satan doesn’t exist anymore, then it could be said that the entire universe is in perfect harmony and unity as it was originally before sin entered it. At that moment we can certainly say in absolute terms that the Plan of Redemption was concluded.
Differences between two goats: The SDABC shows the immense difference in treatment and meaning between both goats:
1) The goat for Jehovah was killed (v. 15); the one for Azazel was not (v. 10).
2) The blood of the first was taken within the Sanctuary and made part of the atonement ritual (vv. 15 e 16); the blood of Azazel was not shed at all, since it was left alive.
3) After the service in the Sanctuary the fat of the sacrificed animal was burnt on the altar (v. 25); evidently the same didn’t happen to the second goat.
4) The blood of the one who belonged to the Lord was capable of cleansing (vv. 15 e 16); whoever carried away Azazel was contaminated (v. 26).
5) Atonement occurred with the first animal; only after that the second was introduced in the scenario (v. 20).
6) It was only the first “whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the holy place” (v. 27); the second, for Azazel, wouldn’t even enter there.
The goat who through lot casting was attributed “for Azazel” was left to die in the desert. There is no parallel in the Redemption History with Jesus’ experience of atoning for our sins. He was not left in a desolate place until dying after His sacrifice on the cross. This was already typified in the first goat that was sacrificed by the high priest. Obviously it would be inadmissible to think of a second death to Christ Jesus!
Official Adventism has many contradicting statements about what they believe–notably their statements on salvation. Ellen White, for example, was “all over the road” theologically. Thus, their theology becomes a moving target in many instances. It is not uncommon to find two opposing views, on many topics, in the writings of Ellen White. Therefore, whatever “Spirit of Prophecy” evidence you may present, the Adventist apologists can cite yet another contradicting quotation as also being a “continuing and authoritative SOURCE of truth.” Thus, many Seventh-day Adventists have the luxury of picking and choosing their favorite quotes. Moreover, that is why Adventists have both liberal and conservative theological societies. Participants have been known to even refuse dining together when their meetings were held in the same vicinity.
The obscure term “Azazel” has generally been considered as a remote place or desert escarpment where the scapegoat died, not referring to a particular person or angel. Moreover, some newer translations do not even use that term. According to Jewish history, it was common to have the scapegoat leap off an escarpment to ensure its death before the one who led out the scapegoat returned and proclaimed the sins of Israel duly removed. This took care of any remote possibility of the scapegoat returning to camp by itself. The news of the death of the scapegoat was eagerly awaited by those who witnessed the leaving of the scapegoat. Just like with Jesus whose atoning death outside the gates of Jerusalem was “once for all” complete, so the shadow (scapegoat) was prefigured as well. Sadly, according to Ellen White, the SDA prophetess, messenger, and co-founder, the atonement was NOT completed at the cross and is still going on in heaven today (i.e., their exclusive, anti-gospel, unbiblical “investigative judgment” alibi). In biblical Christianity, the finished work of Christ on the cross is nonnegotiable.
His grace still amazes me,
Dennis Fischer
Blog: http://notesfromdennisfischer.blogspot.com
D.J. Fischer,
Bull or Ram – atonement for Aaron and his family.
Goat #1 with lot cast upon it – atonement for the people.
Scapegoat – sins placed on it and sent into the wilderness. (no mention in the bible of what happened to the scapegoat after it was released) Also remember the wilderness is a place of trial judgement by God in all contexts or verse in the bible. So Jesus was tried buy Himself?
Seems to me Christ died(made atonement) for our sins. So then Christ is goat #1
See, atonement (the process of) is a ritual performed. It is not an event that occurred just once when Jesus died on the cross but prior to His death and on the day of atonement each year, tenth month…seventh day.
Christ’s work is not finished if you believe in the God-head. Christ lives on and will return to us one day to ,…do what? …the second coming and all related events. “It is done” refers to Gods sacrifice of atonement which was offering up Jesus to pay for our sins – why? to allow Jew and Gentile to be justified freely by faith.
Read Romans 3:21-31 and pay attention to these words “God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement”
Biblical Christianity teaches that the atonement was completed at the Cross. The salvific atonement of Jesus Christ is complete on behalf of “His people” (Matt. 1:21). Thus, contrary to the teaching of Seventh-day Adventism, our confessed sins are NOT merely conditionally-given due to Satan being the FINAL sin-bearer in his supposed meritorious annihilation that finally blots out all confessed sin. When Jesus exclaimed “It is finished!” it meant exactly that the substitutionary atonement of our “stand-in” was completed on the Cross. We need more than merely an Exemplar, we desperately need a Savior and Substitute. Indeed, Jesus is enough for “His people.” There is absolutely no role for Satan in our salvation.
“Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son…” (Heb. 1:1 ESV). We no longer need prophets and prophetesses to dispense truth to us when Jesus is our all-sufficient Redeemer. Moreover, under the New Covenant, our awesome and sovereign God now actually indwells His chosen, regenerated people through His Spirit. Together with God’s revealed will for mankind in His written Word, we are fully equipped with everything essential for our salvation. The Bible is God’s voice speaking to us. Truly, salvation is a rescue operation from start to finish. It’s all about Him! Soli Deo Gloria!
In awe of Calvary,
Dennis Fischer
Blog: http://notesfromdennisfischer.blogspot.com
What Denis is saying that all sin has been ultimately atoned for. No new sin will require any form of redemption or act. So, the events in Revelations don’t really point to the true end of ALL sin when satan finally “pays” the price for his manipulative nature of human kind? That would be kind of a distinguished event in Revelations.
Events still need to occur to end sin for once and all. one specific event is the end of satan who still does what to this day and beyond? If satan’s work is to cause human kind to turn from God what happens to those who (after Christ died for our sins) lack faith or turn away? In all rights, turning away from God is a sin too. Atonement seems to not cover that one?
I can’t speak for other Christians but I can say the end-time is an event to look forward to.
I forgot Baptists believe “once saved, always saved” my bad ;) Too bad Paul posed the question: “Why would immortality come through the gospel if all had it from birth?” (or re-birth for that matter…clarifying as baptism) and stated “To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” (Romans 2:7) Why would we seek immortality if we already had it at birth? Why would God have to give eternal life if it was a birth right? By the way satan does not provide our immortality at his demise rather, we receive it through persistent faith as a gift from God.
Lets be simple here – Jesus died to atone for our sins….to nullify the atonement process since man kind could not get it right the first time. It was a turning point that lead to removal of requirements other than faith in Jesus Christ “our Lord and savoir”
Side note: Baptists have many post non-biblical prophets
Lets name a few…
Thomas Helwys, John Clarke, William Carey, John Leland, Johann Gerhard Oncken, Lottie Moon, Walter Rauschenbusch, Helen Barrett Montgomery, Nannie Helen Burroughs, Martin Luther King, Jr., Clarence Jordan, T. B. Maston, Henlee Barnette, and Foy Valentine.
I do note most of the names above are very careful not to declare, in record, as prophets but please note most, if not all prophets had no distinctions as to character, application, or contribution to society from the above and their “works” Lets remember a prophet is a teacher, has insight, and can relate, in simple terms to those who struggle to understand.
James C,
I am afraid you speak out of ignorance of true church history and more importantly of Baptist history when you name a few “Baptist” post non-biblical prophets. Just because one calls themselves a Baptist does not make them a Baptist anymore than calling yourself a Christian makes you a Christian anymore than standing in a garage makes you an automobile.
Yes, you are correct that a specific event still needs to take place for sin to end once and for all. However, there is a huge distinction between the ending of sin once for all versus the atonement of sin once for all. These are not the same events as clearly indicated by Scripture. There was one ultimate sacrifice by the Lord Jesus Christ who paid the penalty and became the ONLY atonement ever needed for ALL those who would place their faith in Him alone for their salvation. The atonement is NOT for those whose belief is not in Christ, and who never seek forgiveness and repent from their sins.
TDP
SDA’s are correct in their view on this based on the Bible. It is an UNBIBLICAL view that atonement ended at the cross. The article of furniture pointing toward the cross, altar of sacrifice, was the FIRST piece of furniture in the process. And these so-called former Adventists, who have gone over to a side of cheap grace, should know better than to mislead about the Adventist position.
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SDA’s are correct in their view on this based on the Bible. It is an UNBIBLICAL view that atonement ended at the cross.
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Really Jane , do you want a few moments to reconsider this before I post some verses.?
Romans 5:9-11
Much more then , being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son , much more being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
And not only so , but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ , by whom we have NOW RECEIVED THE ATONEMENT.
Hebrews 10:10
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL !!!
Hebrews 10:12
But this man , after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever , sat down on the right hand of God.
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
What is unbiblical is to state that Christ did not finish His work on the cross. It is finished , completed , and it is a gospel that no one can add to , including sabbath keeping or other works.
The answer is very simple. You are misunderstanding EGW.
Put it this way, Jesus, will not Take “Blame” for your sins. He Paid the price, became ultimate sacrifice for you sins.
If Satan didn’t exist, who would you be blaming? Only because some way or another, satan has screwed with something which has caused you to sin.
So Satan will eventually be “blamed” for our sins….Do Not Blame Jesus for your wrong doings. He was sinless, but He died for your transgressions!!!!
Read your bible and understand it before “Blaming” anyone of heresy!!
It would take an incredible amount of dancing around the mulberry bush to come up with a better fictional account or heresy than what SDA apologists are teaching about Satan being an additional scapegoat. Sadly, Jesus is not enough for our Adventist friends. The biblical truth is that Jesus is our scapegoat who died outside of the gates of Jerusalem (as symbolized on the annual Day of Atonement). Truly, the devil has enough sins of his own to worry about without bearing our sins as well. Indeed, we are individually responsible for our sins. We voluntarily sin. There is no valid excuse for our sins. We can’t say “the devil made me do it.” After all, human beings have a propensity toward sin.
Moreover, we actually love to sin due to our fallen nature or original sin condition. If we really had a neutral free-will as Adventists insist we have, then we would never commit any sin nor commit treason against the holiness of God. The apostle Paul declared that the very things he didn’t want to do he did anyway. This reveals the extreme depth of the fallen nature of man. The real truth is that man is desperately in need of a Savior and Substitute. Paul further reminds us that no person is righteous–not even one! We don’t even possess the tiniest island of righteousness. We are at the total mercy of our awesome Redeemer. Yes, we certainly need more than merely an Exemplar, we need a Savior and Substitute. Salvation is a rescue operation from start to finish.
Moreover, both goats (on the annual Day of Atonement) had to be without blemish. Since when can we depict the devil as being without any blemish? According to SDA dogma, Satan has yet an atoning, salvific role to perform for our salvation by finally having to suffer, through his meritorious annihilation, for all our sins. Seventh-day Adventists believe that without Satan ultimately dying for their sins (although confessed) they cannot be finally “blotted out” (see GC, pp. 422, 485; Test., Vol. 5, page 475, etc.). In Adventism, sins are merely conditionally forgiven. So, without the salvific role of Satan, our SDA friends insist that eternal life is unattainable. How can Satan be annihilated to ashes when angels are spirits? What is there to burn up in an angel? Adventists claim that without total perfection in this life, Jesus cannot return to this planet in rebellion (see COL, page 69). Not only is Jesus not enough for our SDA friends, but the Bible is not enough as well. Dear reader, who is your scapegoat? It is my fervent prayer that many Adventists will discover Jesus to be their true Sabbath Rest. It’s all about Him! Soli Deo Gloria!
In His power and for His glory,
Dennis J. Fischer
Blog: http://notesfromdennisfischer.blogspot.com