It always baffles me to hear a man boast of his love for God and his knowledge of the Bible and fight tooth and nail against the least requirements and commandments! your last write in trapped yourself once again, instead of cutting and pasting from my “cult handbook” The NT. I will cut and paste from your above write in! which is also the NT.

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

As for the annulment of the law because we are saved by faith through grace didn’t Paul say in Romans 3:31- “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law”. What part of this plain English do you have difficulty with?

The very day in which the Lord would like a relationship with you, you ignore and set up your own day and on your own terms! As for keeping a Sabbath every day as you boast, you must be a poor man and a lazy one at that? how do you find time to work, pay bills, contribute to society etc as well as spending hours on the internet every day trying in vain to discredit the Seventh-day Adventist church?

To end just in case you just might turn to the epistles of John 1, 2 and 3 you will find they are saturated with a love for God and keeping His commandments! here is my favorite.

1st John 2:3 “Hereby we know that we know Him if we keep His commandments” – The next verse may be too hard for you to bear!

May the good Lord richly bless you
Patrick

Jim says:
The reason you cant go into a long discourse is because there is not a cut-and-paste rebuttle you can access from your cult hand book. Since it appears you lack basic hermeneutics skills and the help of the Holy Spirit to understand the word of God I can see why you dont want to go into a long discourse.

Patrick said:
“however if you love Jesus as much as you say! then why not follow what He say’s about his Law:
Didn’t Jesus Himself say “If you love me keep my commandments” (John 14:15) ”

Jim says:
You do greatly error for you know not the scripture nor the power of God. John, the beloved apostle NEVER once records or associates Christs commandments with the dead letter of the law. Quite the opposite instead in both the Gospel and the espitles.

Jesus says:
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Joh 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Jim says:
This is the same thing that Paul says in Romans 7 – dead to the law through the body of Christ that we might bring forthe fruit to God though walking in the Spirit:

Paul says:
Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.

John says:
1Jn 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
1Jn 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jn 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
1Jn 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1Jn 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Jim says:
You are condemned under the law. There is no need to speculate as to what God will do to you (it will involve eternal conscience torment with wicked ellen white in the lake of fire). Repent and believe the Gospel. -Jim
__________________________________________________________________________________

John the belove apostle says:
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Patrick the cult member says:
And this is his commandment, that we pretend to keep the sabbath.
And hereby we know that he abides in us, by pretending to keep the sabbath.

Why “Strain at a gnat and swallow a camel”? Jesus said also. It is God you are fighting here not people!

In Christ
Patrick

Col 3:17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

This is a life and death issue for some on this thread. Jesus Christ is everything. He is your life IF you are born again of Gods will and not the will of man. Have that mind brethren – whether you keep one special day onto the Lord or not.

Rom 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

In Christ -Jim

Then the answer is not to go back to the law but to crucify your self and flesh by the grace of God (for only those who God calls and enables can do this) so that every day is for Him. If we go to work it should be for the glory of God. To win souls, to be a light shining in darkness. To do a good job for our employers and make your witness oif Christ attractive in every way. Is God not TRULY worth every day – just one day a week? I am sorry if I am reading this wrong, but I don’t think I am.

-Jim

Born again children of God worship the Lord in Spirit and in Truth. What I am reading here is that since this laodecian age refuses the cross in their lives and lives for self and pleasure – we’d better at least give God one day. The argument is almost like laodecia verses laodecia PLUS sabbath keeping.

What about being dead with Christ – being consumed and constrained by Him and living for Him everyday – no longer living for self and the temporal but for our king and his kingdom. Although we have not obtained this, we should forget those things that are behind and push forward to this high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Not rest in “I will give God one “real” day a week” stuff. I do not write this to condemn anyone, but that should not be our goal even if it is where we are at now in our walk.

I am not writing this to come against those who keep a day onto the Lord either (for such do not push it as law on others – pushing it as law proves they do not keep the day onto the Lord but onto Moses). I am writing to the law crowd who would tell those dead with Christ and accepted in the beloved that they have to go back to law. Either Saturday or Sunday – forcing a day is dead wrong. Keeping it for the Lord is great from the right motive – just as treating every day the same for the Lord is great too if for the right motive.

-Jim

There are also verses telling us that true believers are dead to the letter and born of the Spirit:

Rom 7:4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.

Is Paul talking about the 10 commandments here? Absolutely…

Rom 7:7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

Keeping one day a week and giving 10% of your income is not even the old covenant. That is so far from the kingdom of God. You cannot be Christs disciple unless you forsake everything (your very life) and die to yourself. Then your life will be hidden with Christ. He will be your life. You will worship the Lord in Spirit and in truth (not on days and at places). The Lord isn’t interested in you giving him one day a week, it is all or nothing. Count the cost of forsaking everything (even your prideful religious habits) then pick up your cross and follow Christ.

John 4:23-24 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth

All you admit when you boast of your Saturday (saturns day) instead of Christ is that you don’t really give the Lord the other six days.

Luke 9:23 And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

So next Saturday, when you are sitting around and pretending to keep the Sabbath, remember that you do very well in the eyes of some religious men but fall far short in the eyes of God. Jesus did not say if anyone would come after me – let him give up one day a week and follow me.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

-Jim

As for the seasons does not (Genesis 1:14 – 18) not say that the sun and stars were given us for “Seasons” to discern time? and this before the fall? Also you mentioned that the Sabbath God created was the “Jewish Sabbath” – Strange? no one ever heard of a Jew or an Isrealite from Adam down to Moses, and since we are all descended from Adam and Eve we all have a common ancestor here. Remember “Whosoever Believes in Him” (John 3:16) is not exclusive to the Jews only but salvation is open to all men and races!

It is true the old law of sacrifices and shadows was annuled at the cross hence the temple curtain being “torn in two” when Jesus died. These were to point forward to the perfect sacrifice “the lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world”which was Jesus at Calvary.

However to even suggest that any including the Sabbath law of the 10 commandments was or is annulled is outright apostasy! How could even our earthly governments corrupt as they often are operate without a replica of even the last 6 commandments? the result would be chaos which happens during revolutions, civil war, invasions etc: How much more then is the Christian obliged to their Creator to keep his Holy day (Isaiah 58:13). You seem to have no problem with the first three.

One final question – which day then will we gather in the new heaven and earth when this world is over to worship our God? is it the Sunday of Baal, Molech, Ashtoreth, Paganism and the Babylonic religeons, Apostate Sunday Christianity, or maybe the Jewish seventh day without Jesus? or even the Friday of the Quran? No! God said Remember the Sabbath. not forget it! the seventh day of the fourth commandment which Jesus Himself said was “Lord of the Sabbath”
(Mark 2:28) are you guys going to tell Jesus He was wrong?

God Bless
Patrick
Patrick

Also this 6000 year controversy on earth between Christ and satan which will end with 1000 years in heaven – The jugdement. from there we will descend back to the earth made new and resume our Eden home

Are you telling us that the apostle John was in grave error when he declared that there will be no need for the sun or the moon in the Holy City? Also, the apostle John saw NO temple in the city (Rev. 21:22-25) whereas Ellen White insisted she saw the temple in heaven. Since there will be no night in heaven (Rev. 22:4), there obviously can be no weekly Sabbath there because it is entirely based upon sunsets on two days every week; specifically, Fridays and Saturdays.

The only Sabbath that was mandated for human beings was the Jewish Sabbath. The seventh day of creation was unending or perpetual (notice the absence of the phrase “there was evening and there was morning” for the seventh day). Without the Fall, the Edenic Sabbath would have been perpetual. Moreover, since it was perpetual or unending in duration, God did not command that Adam and Eve observe any special day in Eden.

Furthermore, are you telling us that the Jewish New Moon celebration will be observed in heaven as well since it is mentioned in Isaiah 66:23? Isaiah is simply using metaphors, that the Israelites understood, to describe stipulated times of worship heaven. Both the festal New Moon and weekly Sabbath were shadows pointing to our Lord Jesus Christ. We certainly will not observe “shadows” in heaven when we already have the reality of Jesus, the true Sabbath Rest (Matt.11:28-30; Col. 2:16-17; Heb. 4:9). Notice that the writer of Hebrews uses the Greek term “sabbatismos” to describe our rest in Christ. This is the only passage using “sabbatismos” in the entire Bible. Indeed, Koine Greek was a very precise language that averts any misunderstanding on many NTpassages.

Those who still insist upon observing any shadow pointing to cross are actually diminishing the honor and glory due to Jesus Christ. When Jesus died, the Sabbath died. Christ-followers no longer gaze intently upon the fading shadows of the SUN for two days out of every week, but instead they look to God–the Son (the reality of all OT shadows). By the way, it is important to note that Seventh-day Adventists do not observe the Bible Sabbath with its weekly showbread and extra sacrificing requirements. In short, it is IMPOSSIBLE to observe the weekly, festal Sabbath without the Levitical system being fully in place.

A former SDA minister,

Dennis Fischer
Blog: http://notesfromdennisfischer.blogspot.com

God Bless
Patrick

“as if a man fled from a lion, and a bear met him, or went into the house and leaned his hand against the wall, and a serpent bit him. Is not the day of the LORD darkness, and not light, and gloom with no brightness in it? “I hate, I despise your feasts, and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies”. – God [Amos 5:19-21]

-Jim

“The Church in the wilderness and not the proud hierarchy in the worlds great capital was the true church of Christ, a gaurdian of the treasures of truth which God gave to his people to be given to the world E.G White.

Patrick Dillon
Edinburgh
Scotland

No need to wait until all is consummated before making your decision. Have you read “The Late Great Planet Earth”, have you read any of the “Left Behind” series, or any other of the myriad of books out there published in the last 40 years or so, mostly futurist in content, and not already made a decision on their relevance or not? You sound like a reasonably intelligent sort of guy, so can I presume that when reading such works, you were able to compare their theories with the prophecies of the Bible and with current events, and make an intelligent and reasonable decision whether current events are trending in the direction that the authors say they will. My point in challenging you to read the Great Controversy was with the intent to demonstrate that although White was writing from a vantage point of over 100 years ago, yet when compared with current events, the Adventist understanding of eschatology is by far more logical, more Biblical, and what’s more, closer to following the trends of current events than anything else out there. More modern writers of end-time events are almost on top of current events yet because they so tenaciously cling to the futurist paradigm, their books are more accurately described as novels with the view to entertain than any serious Biblical exegesis. And what’s more, the way the world is taking shape politically, socially, and religiously, it is becoming less and less likely that any of the current futurist scenarios are possible.

You said….I believe your reference to “God alone is immortal” is found in 1 Tim 6:16 (not 2 Tim. as you claim). But to use that as a proof text to deny eternal punishment is naive and fails to consider the rest of God’s word on the matter.

Actually, it is precisely with the rest of scripture in consideration that I offered that scripture, for it was through using that scripture as a foundation that one can reasonably come to a conclusion that eternal life for the unsaved is both Biblically and philosophically untenable. First, I will answer the texts that you have offered as evidence for your own assertion in support of eternal torment, then I will offer why philosophically that idea is unacceptable.

David W…..God alone IS immortal in Himself (meaning He cannot die). But the Scriptures are clear He has granted immortality to those He has created.

While I agree with the first part of this statement, I feel I must qualify the second part. The scriptures are clear God will at some time grant eternal life to someone, but the questions must be answered, when? And to whom? And right there is the crux of the whole issue. Whether one who dies goes directly to his/her reward/punishment, or sleeps until the resurrection. This issue has been debated for centuries (it is hardly the figment of Adventist imagination) by far better educated people than I, but I will do my best to explain what I somewhat reluctantly call ‘soul sleep’. You will find that far from it being the product of some-ones over active imagination, there is actually very sound Biblical reasoning behind the contention that we all sleep or are unconscious until the resurrection.
The Psalmist said ‘As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness; I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with Thy likeness.” (Psalm 17:15)
“The living know that they shall die: but the DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING….also their love, and their hatred, and their envy is now perished”. Eccl. 9:5,6
You admit obviously that the body dies, as we all must do, but here in the above verse the wise man under inspiration of the Holy Spirit speaks of what you might call “the real man”, that is his mind and personality or his soul, and states categorically that the man’s brain, his intellect, dies with the rest of his body, because once dead, he intellectually, KNOWS NOT ANYTHING and emotionally, their love, hatred and envy are also perished.
“Todays English Version” published by the American Bible Society says “their loves, their hates, their passions, all died with them”.
When a man dies, “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to the earth; in that very day HIS THOUGHTS PERISH”. Psalm 146:4 No-one can misinterpret what the Holy Spirit is saying here without some fairly astounding exegetical gymnastics .God is here indicating absolutely no mental activity. If the dead man’s thoughts perish, then he is not conscious, in any understanding of the word conscious.
“Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with all thy might, for there is no….KNOWLEDGE nor WISDOM in the grave wither thou goest” Eccl. 9:10 No comfort or support here for you for the Holy Spirit is clearly saying wither thou goest, not just your body. Again, the dead man is unconscious.
“The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that that go down into silence” Psalm 115:17 Surely if one were conscious and in heaven, he would be praising God with great fervour and gratitude?
“Oh Lord…in death there IS NO REMEMBRANCE OF THEE…in the grave who shall give thee thanks?” Psalm 6:5
“ For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.” Isaiah 38:18,19
Are we not Protestants? Do we not profess to accept scripture as the foundation for all doctrinal belief rather than man’s interpretation of scripture? Look again at the above texts. No interpretation required, just simply accepting God at His word firmly establishes that death is a form of unconsciousness until the resurrection.
Jesus confirms this when referencing the resurrection to His disciples. The resurrection became the hope of the early Christian community.
Look at the following quotes from Jesus Himself.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he (Lazarus) shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Not one hint or suggestion from the Lord that we go to heaven when we die. No, His promise every time was that on the last day, He would return to raise His people to life and they would join with Him where He is. John 14:1-3 is a wonderful confirming promise along precisely the same lines. So far from being an unscriptural heretical doctrine, ‘soul sleep,’ for want of a better expression , is Biblical.

David W said….Jesus made it clear that the dead are conscious…….

Where does He do this apart from your interpretive treatment of the quoted parable?

quote…..This is more than evident in the story which He Himself told of Lazarus and the Rich man (Luke 16:19-31). This is not a parable, because Jesus said “There was” and named Lazarus by name (if it weren’t true, Jesus would have been lying, which is sin). After death, both Lazarus, the rich man (and Abraham as well) could feel, see, think, reason, speak, hear, and remember. Though their physical bodies were dead, their souls were very much alert and aware of where they were.

Evidently you see Jesus’ portrayal of the scenes of Lazarus and the rich man as being a literal event. If so, this would be the one and only occasion that Jesus spoke in such a way to a crowd of people; not only so, but contradicts the following: Matt. 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:…. 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
The story speaks nothing of immortal souls having left the dead body behind. Physical body parts are mentioned; the rich man had eyes and a tongue, presumably Lazarus had a finger. Tell me. How much water do you think a spirit finger could apply to a spirit tongue? If this story was literal, then dead people do not soar away to their reward as disembodied spirits or souls, but rather with all their physical attributes intact. A little digging here and there would quickly disprove this idea. This anomaly in the story alone leads the honest reader to conclude that we are talking of a fictional parable, not a real life (or death) story.
Again, if this were a literal account, then hell must be a suburb of heaven, so close as to enable parties in either camp to freely converse with one another. Please. Those purportedly suffering in hell and being just over the fence as it were and within hearing of everyone in heaven with their incessant screams and cries of agony along with their cursing of God etc? Such a scenario is unthinkable. How could heaven be heaven in such a case? A literal understanding of this story is absurd.
On top of all that, how could Abraham’s bosom (another body part) be large enough to accommodate Lazarus? Let alone all the saved from all ages? The narrative is for the benefit of Jewish listeners because Abraham is the most important figure in the drama. It is not an exposition for Christian doctrine and theology. The lesson carries on from the previous parable about the unjust steward. The point of the lesson was “you cannot serve both God and mammon”. The Pharisees scoffed at Him, so He met them on their own ground by relating a story based on their own belief which they could not mock. Jesus, being the Master teacher, used their own belief against them, proving their covetousness.
In Jesus day riches were considered a sign of God’s favour. The richer one was, according to the belief at that time, the more secure you were in your future eternal state. (See Matt. 19:23-25) The parable of the rich man and Lazarus was designed to reverse the current thinking and bring light and truth to their covetous hearts. It was not intended as a literal theological treatise on the state of the dead.
Josephus speaks of the prevailing belief of that time…he wrote that Hades was a “subterraneous region” of “perpetual darkness” where the lost are dragged “into the neighbourhood of hell itself”, but the saved are guided into a “region of light where the countenances of the fathers…always smile upon them…the place we call the bosom of Abraham” Though the wicked can “see the place of the saved…a chaos deep and large is fixed between them” so that no one can “if he were bold enough to attempt it, pass over it”. A consultation therefore of Josephus writings reveal the tradition that current Judaism held regards the state of the dead, echoing precisely the parable that Jesus used to teach them their own inconsistency. In order to teach important truths Jesus framed His parables around the preconceived opinions of His hearers, but this does not mean He was agreeing with that opinion, nor endorsing false doctrine. For example, Jesus was not condoning the actions or lifestyle of the unjust steward in the previous parable.

David quotes…..“Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will HEAR his voice” Jn.5:28

Great verse you have quoted here. What a wonderful promise…death does not have the final say…Jesus does. And where are those ones when they hear His voice? In heaven? Purgatory? No, they are in their graves! Just like Lazarus was in his grave or tomb when he heard the voice of Jesus crying “Come forth!” (Note, not come down, or up, but come forth)

Quote…..Likewise, the Scriptures speak, not of annihilation, but of everlasting, eternal, conscious punishment:
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the ETERNAL FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels.” Matt.25:41 “These will go away into ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matt.25:46
“They will suffer the punishment of ETERNAL destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” 2 Thess. 1:9 (the Greek word for “destruction” here is not annihilation, but rather doom and ruin).
“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” Mark 9:43-44
“And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be TORMENTED with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up FOREVER AND EVER, and THEY HAVE NO REST, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” Rev.14:9-11
“And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matt.25:30
“And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.” Rev. 19:20
“And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet ARE also; and they will be TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOREVER AND EVER.” Rev.20:10 (The only difference between the wicked and the Beast and False prophet, is that the latter are thrown there alive, whereas the rest of the wicked go there to be tormented after death. Nevertheless, the torment for all there is forever and ever).
Not one of these verses refers (in the Greek) to a state of annihilation, nor a ceasing of existence, but rather of an eternal torment. The repeated “eternal” and “everlasting” refer (again in the Greek) to ongoing, never ending.

Read Jude 7. Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning today even though they were set forth as examples suffering “eternal fire”? Peter identifies the eternal fire of Jude with annihilation when he said “turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly. Interestingly Jesus said that” the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:29). And Jeremiah agrees with this story and line of reasoning when he said “Sodom was overthrown in a moment”! So the eternal fire that destroyed Sodom did so in one day!!! Therefore it is to be concluded that the eternal fire is eternal in the result of what it has accomplished.
All the following texts describe not an ongoing process of anything, but a final result.
Heb. 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation (not endless saving) unto all them that obey him;
6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. (not endless judging)
9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. (not endless redeeming)
2 Thess. 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction (not endless destroying) from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Matt. 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment (not endless punishing) but the righteous into life eternal.
I have no argument with you regards the duration of the punishment of the wicked. It is indeed eternal. The question my friend is what does that punishment consist of? If the punishment for the wicked is torment, then certainly, the wicked must endure exactly that. If however, the punishment for the wicked is death, then that death will be everlasting, eternal, and without hope of resurrection. And what does the Bible say?
The wages of sin is death!

David said…..If Hell, and the Lake of Fire, were merely places where the unrighteous/unsaved/wicked were burned up or annihilated, the description would have been such, and eventually the fire would have done its job and end. But such is not the case. Rather, the Scriptures unmistakably describe them as everlasting torment in a fire that never ends (a punishment that continues forever).

Au contraire….apart from the above verses which do precisely that, there is the following…
Malachi 4: 1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch……3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
You might also like to read John 15:1-6.

Finally David said….As for your SDA “Investigative Judgment” doctrine that allegedly took place in Heaven, in the 1840′s, consider this:
“But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,” Heb.10:12
When Jesus said on the Cross, on earth (not afterward in Heaven) “It is finished”, He meant exactly that. His offering for sin for all mankind, forever, for those already born as well as for all who had not yet been born, was fully and completely accomplished on the Cross at Calvary. Then, He SAT DOWN at the right hand of God (He didn’t continue His atoning or sacrificial work there). The Scriptures are clear that the Great Judgment that will take place will be yet in the future, after His millennial reign on earth when “the books will be opened”.

I have answered this in a former post, but would add this.
If as you say, and I don’t disagree, that Jesus’ sacrifice on Calvary was a full and complete propitiation for our sin, and again, according to you the wages of sin is eternal torment, (with which I disagree) then Jesus most assuredly did not pay the full price for our sin else He would still be suffering, and would be so forever without end. But the thing is, He did indeed pay the full price, not eternal torment, but death.
And as far as the judgment goes, when Jesus comes He has His reward with Him to give every man according as his works shall be. (Rev. 22:12) Surely, some form of judgment must have been made in heaven prior to this event in order to ascertain what reward goes to who?
Also, in the form of a parable Jesus said that when He comes He will divide the sheep from the goats. Same thing. Some form of judgment must be made prior to the second coming in order to decide who lives and who dies. Read Revelation 14 from verse 12 on. How do the angels know who are destined to wrath and who must be destroyed if no judgment has been made? Besides all this, according to popular belief, as we have been debating, everyone who has ever lived are even now inm heaven or hell. When were they judged? Or are they resurrected from hell and then told “we have made a decision and you are going to hell”. Huh?
Finally, philosophically I cannot endorse eternal torment for many reasons, but for now I would like to mention just 2.
If eternal torment is the just punishment for sin, then God’s justice can never, I repeat never, be satisfied. Is that your picture of God? A God whose justice can never be fully satisfied? Sounds far more like a pagan god demanding human sacrifice than a gracious merciful loving Creator.
And secondly, I would ask you this question. If eternal torment is true, and the wicked of past ages are there now, where is the justice in their torment being of so much longer duration that someone like, say, Pol Pot, Hitler, or Stalin, or some other modern mass killer? Certainly there would be supposedly some having been there for several thousand years and who never, not in the slightest, approached the evil of these men? Where is the justice in that? Even men created in the image of God now marred and tainted with sin know that such unsound justice demands an answer.

Even though official Adventism insists that the writings attributed to Ellen White are “a continuing and authoritative SOURCE of truth,” authentic Protestants strictly adhere to Christ alone, faith alone, grace alone , and Scripture alone. While Seventh-day Adventist apologists continue to use the right theological terms (i. e., grace, faith, sin, etc.), these words mean something entirely different to them than found in biblical Christianity. This makes it easy for them to masquerade in our communities as legitimate Evangelicals or Protestants. It is not always what they say publicly that counts, but rather what they don’t say. They carefully present their teachings to initially appeal to all Christians. Then they continue down the road in their blatant sheep-stealing endeavors. It is fair to say that most Seventh-day Adventists in the pew do not fully understand the policies and teachings of their church. However, they are unashamedly convinced that you are wrong, and they are right about everything.

A former SDA minister,

Dennis Fischer
Blog: notesfromdennisfischer.blogspot.com

Do you honestly think that one should read Ellen White’s account of the final days, and wait to see if it is true before determining if she is a false or true prophet? A bit late by then, don’t you think? No matter, we already have God’s word to determine that.

I believe your reference to “God alone is immortal” is found in 1 Tim 6:16 (not 2 Tim. as you claim). But to use that as a proof text to deny eternal punishment is naive and fails to consider the rest of God’s word on the matter. God alone IS immortal in Himself (meaning He cannot die). But the Scriptures are clear He has granted immortality to those He has created.

“For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.” 1 Cor. 15:53

Jesus made it clear that the dead are conscious. This is more than evident in the story which He Himself told of Lazarus and the Rich man (Luke 16:19-31). This is not a parable, because Jesus said “There was” and named Lazarus by name (if it weren’t true, Jesus would have been lying, which is sin). After death, both Lazarus, the rich man (and Abraham as well) could feel, see, think, reason, speak, hear, and remember. Though their physical bodies were dead, their souls were very much alert and aware of where they were.

“Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will HEAR his voice” Jn.5:28

Likewise, the Scriptures speak, not of annihilation, but of everlasting, eternal, conscious punishment:

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the ETERNAL FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels.” Matt.25:41 “These will go away into ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matt.25:46

“They will suffer the punishment of ETERNAL destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” 2 Thess. 1:9 (the Greek word for “destruction” here is not annihilation, but rather doom and ruin).

“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” Mark 9:43-44

“And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be TORMENTED with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up FOREVER AND EVER, and THEY HAVE NO REST, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” Rev.14:9-11

“And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matt.25:30

“And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.” Rev. 19:20

“And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet ARE also; and they will be TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOREVER AND EVER.” Rev.20:10 (The only difference between the wicked and the Beast and False prophet, is that the latter are thrown there alive, whereas the rest of the wicked go there to be tormented after death. Nevertheless, the torment for all there is forever and ever).

Not one of these verses refers (in the Greek) to a state of annihilation, nor a ceasing of existence, but rather of an eternal torment. The repeated “eternal” and “everlasting” refer (again in the Greek) to ongoing, never ending. If Hell, and the Lake of Fire, were merely places where the unrighteous/unsaved/wicked were burned up or annihilated, the description would have been such, and eventually the fire would have done its job and end. But such is not the case. Rather, the Scriptures unmistakably describe them as everlasting torment in a fire that never ends (a punishment that continues forever).

As for your SDA “Investigative Judgment” doctrine that allegedly took place in Heaven, in the 1840′s, consider this:

“But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,” Heb.10:12

When Jesus said on the Cross, on earth (not afterward in Heaven) “It is finished”, He meant exactly that. His offering for sin for all mankind, forever, for those already born as well as for all who had not yet been born, was fully and completely accomplished on the Cross at Calvary. Then, He SAT DOWN at the right hand of God (He didn’t continue His atoning or sacrificial work there). The Scriptures are clear that the Great Judgment that will take place will be yet in the future, after His millennial reign on earth when “the books will be opened”.

Brendan, you are seeing the Scriptures through the glasses of your cult. Put down those glasses, and read God’s word for what it says, reconciling the Old Testament with the New.

The SDA doctrines regarding soul sleep, “Investigative Judgment”, and eternal annihilation are teachings which are contrary to the Scriptures, and thus nullify the SDA claim of being a Christian church. Quite frankly, you have been deceived.

So according to you the doctrine of the natural immortality of the soul/spirit is essentially Christian, despite the scripture clearly and unequivocally stating that “God alone is immortal” (read 2 Timothy).
That when Jesus comes to raise the righteous and damn the wicked, He will be doing so without having made a judgement upon these matters?
And the third essential Christian doctrine you offered being the eternal burning of the wicked in torment despite again the clear teaching of scripture that tells us that the wages of sin is death, and the gift of eternal life is a gift for the righteous. Yet you have made death to mean life, and the gift of eternal life for everyone. And despite the many many texts throughout the old and new testaments that say similar to what Jesus says when He informed us that wide is the way that leads to destruction.

SDA doctrines are based on the Bible. There is not one of them that doesn’t have a sound Biblical foundation, which truth you would accept if you took the time to study Adventist doctrine and WHY we believe what we do. Because, quite frankly, there is a whole lot of presumption going on in here, one glaring one being that Adventists keep the Sabbath in order to earn their way into heaven. That kind of reasoning and misunderstanding is judgemental and inexcusable.

All that said, I thank-you for being honest in your opinion of my faith. I suggest you read the last 8 or so chapters of “The Great Controversy” by Ellen White. If that final days scenario does not come to pass, then you may know for sure she was a false prophet. If however those scenes she so vividly describes do come to pass, remembering they were written 120 years ago, then ……

You are in a “christian” cult. That is, you claim to believe in Christ, yet in holding to the unbiblical beliefs of the SDA organization, accepting the SDA “interpretation” of the Scriptures, you have chosen to believe the words of man over and above the whole Word of God (the Holy Bible). You have rejected any arguments that run contrary to your cult, and so of course, to you, no one has “adequately refuted” you. All the documentation in the world, and all the verses in the Bible, which run contrary to or at variance with your beliefs, you will not believe. Therefore, because no one has “refuted” your beliefs to your satisfaction, you expressed your rhetorical question: “can I conclude that my church must therefore be a Christian church after all?” You may certainly conclude that if you wish, but your reasoning is merely subjective and as such is poor basis on which to rest any conclusion.

The SDA doctrines regarding soul sleep, “Investigative Judgment”, and eternal annihilation are teachings which are contrary to the Scriptures, and thus nullify the SDA claim of being a Christian church. Quite frankly, you have been deceived.

I cannot speak for anyone else, but the reason I have not called you a heretic has nothing to do with your claims of being a Christian and everything to do with the fact that I try to avoid ad hominem attacks. While certainly not a master of “argue the issue, not the person” technique, it is something I attempt to do. But since your last post expressly stated that you stand firmly in the SDA camp, and really you begged the issue, I am forced to conclude that yes, you are a heretic.

Every issue that has been brought up has been discussed in length, and the fact that you feel that your views were not adequately refuted says more about how strongly you hold them than anything else. They have been discussed, given Scriptural rebuttal, and you have ignored them.

There are areas where Christians can agree to disagree, such as youth pastors and celebrating Easter, because those are areas that are not absolutely defined. Some hold to the Normative view (whatever is not forbidden is permitted), some hold to the Regulative view (whatever is not commanded is forbidden), and most Christians are somewhere in the middle. The problem here is that the SDA, when it comes to the Sabbath, is beyond even the Regulative and – based on the doctrine of the SDA – makes the Saturday Sabbath a requirement of salvation and declare, as you have, Sunday worship services as taking the Mark of the Beast. I believe the term is, “adding to the cross,” which is forbidden and heresy.

As for the RRC, the RRC is bad and unchristian, and the fact that people associate the RRC with Christianity makes being a Christian harder, but that alone is not proof of Catholic Church = The Beast (or the Harlot). I have given a lengthy explanation for why I think the RCC is not Babylon a little higher in these comments, so feel free to read that.

On another matter altogether, the debate over the identity of antichrist and the relation of the RCC regarding that title, I have written extensively on my blog detailed posts that conclusively prove and agree with the reformers views, including Calvin, Luther, Huss, Jerome, Lattimer, Knox, Wesley, and many many others. In this I am in good company. That modern Protestantism no longer holds to that view is symptomatic of the ecumenicalism that is now bringing the harlots daughters back to mother.

It is reported that Ellen White told someone that sabbatarians shouldn’t live those areas of the world (smile). For example, the Seventh-day Adventist Church does not publish a sunset calendar for northern Alaska and Norway. However, as mentioned above, moral laws can be and should be obeyed everywhere. To continue observing any of the Old Covenant shadows pointing to the Cross would be actually denying the the reality of Christ, the true Sabbath Rest (Col. 2:16-17; Heb. 4:1-10, Matt. 11:28-30).

Resting in Him,

Dennis Fischer
E-mail: dfministries@gmail.com
Blog: http://notesfromdennisfischer.blogspot.com

The letter kills but the Spirit gives life. If you are truly born again, that is living in victory over sin, having forsaken everything to follow Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit, you will understand. Being religous, even having escaped the religion of babylon as you mentioned leaves us no better then unconverted pharisees. Finding rest in Jesus, and no longer living but having Christ live in you nad rule your heart by faith… that is the work of the Holy Spirit. The law demands 10% of your income and one day a week. Jesus demands everything of you can not be His disciple.

Are you born again, have you died to the letter of the 10 commandments through the body of Christ? Or are you just a really pious false convert?

Jim

“For I delight in

Law One: ……….The law of God.

after the inward man”…..(Romans 7:22)

Paul has nothing but love and respect for God’s law. He considers it ‘holy, just and good’. It is Paul’s earnest and deepest desire to honour that law, and to keep all the commandments,

” but I see another law in my members, warring against the law (of God) of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to….” (v23cont.)

Law Two:………..“The law of sin…

…which is in my members.”

Paul delights in obedience, but finds that in the carnal nature resides a law which makes it impossible, the law of sin. Paul confesses his wretchedness and guilt. “Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” he cries.

“I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin.” (vs 25)

But if Paul is bound by the law of sin, despite his best intentions to obey the law of God, how then can he overcome? The answer is just 2 verses later. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For…

Law Three:……….the law of the Spirit of life…

in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.” Romans 8:1,2.

Three laws. The law of God which is holy, just, and good.
The law of sin which binds the carnal man making it impossible to obey the law of God.
The law of the Spirit of life which through the grace and power of God makes it possible for the reborn child of God to obey the law of God, if he relies on and walks after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

The law of sin has no power over them who are completely surrendered to Christ. That is why elsewhere Paul can assert that to those who walk in the Spirit they are transformed by the renewing of their minds, and are recreated into the image of the character of Christ. A character that is obedient and a mind (like Christ’s) which delights in the law of God and rejoices that by faith in the power and grace of God he may be obedient to all the commandments.

I dont worship on Sunday, I worship in spirit and in truth. I prefer meeting with the saints daily from house to house, ironically with a weekly meeting on saturday usually. Those it was wednesday nights for a long time. I am not bound by a day or by the law, I died to the letter and live by the Spirit. I do not attend a “church service” (find that in the NT) on saturday as sabbatarians do, thus carying on the unbiblical religous tradtions of their harlot mother rome… (only thing that changes is a day). Are you born again, if so please explain how Romans 7 has become a reality in your life. How you died to the letter of the law and now live by the Spirit.

-Jim

I can’t speak for “fleebabylon”, but I can speak for myself. I do NOT think that the RCC is Babylon, and here is why:

The most common logic of Rome = Babylon thinking is that since Rome was very powerful, it was put into code as Babylon to protect the early church – in spite of the fact that nowhere else is truth encoded to protect those speaking the truth. Further, the alternate theory of encoding to keep the truth away from people makes no sense, seeing as the title is Revelation.

It is a carryover from those who view the Book of Revelation as allegorical, along with the belief that Israel is not Israel but represents something else – an error that could be forgiven because for a long time, there was no nation of Israel. But there is now a literal nation of Israel, and a literal city of Babylon which is part of Iraq and having a LOT of Western money poured into it, setting a stage for it to become a major player in the Middle East.

Now, back to the subject – actually, I think this might be an important thing, Revelation, so let’s stay with it. Now, brakelite, you mentioned earlier the rationale for the Mark of the Beast being worshipping on Sunday and talked about how it allegorically is chosen (which is the forehead) and convenient (the hand). The problem here is that it is the MARK of the Beast, a clear reference to a common practice of physically putting a symbol on human skin, through tattooing or branding. Why would Jesus Christ, the one doing the revelating, use an allegory that seems so much like a literal statement that the allegory sounds like something from a sermon sponsored by Budweiser?

The other problem is your referring to Rome as both the Beast of the Sea and Babylon; but Revelation refers to them as separate entities that use each other, until Babylon is betrayed by the Beast. Further, there is a third entity, the Beast of the Earth (False Prophet) who is the person acting as the propaganda piece.

Now there is one more point to address, and here is what you said: ” … there is not one single text in the entire NT that declares any change, alteration, or expunging of any Ten Commandment law.” That is not true. Romans 14:5-6 gives explicit approval for not holding one day above another – as well as holding one day above another. Now either what Paul said was not inspired and therefore does not belong in the Bible, or this is a modification of the fourth commandment.

Yes – God is turning many people away from the seventh day cult… well said!