Seventh-day Adventism exposed.

A fascinating documentary which exposes Ellen G. White as a false prophetess and the SDA’s anti-Christian, anti-biblical, heretical teachings.

104 thoughts on “Seventh-day Adventism exposed.

  1. I found this program on Seventh Day Adventist to be very informative. I did not know they came from the same root as Jehovah’s Witnesses. I had always considered them to be a Christian denomination, different for sure, but Christian. I have understood from some Adventist co-workers that Ellen G. White is not really emphasized in the Church any more – which this video really contradicted. I wonder if she is not becoming less prominent as they move forward? I know the dietary concerns and Sabbath worship are still vitally important from my interactions with these co-workers.

  2. Yes, Morris, the 19th century saw the genesis of Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh-day Adventism, and Christian Science. The 1800’s were a very busy time for Lucifer . . . and L. Ron Hubbard was simply born a century too late.

    – The Pilgrim

  3. Lol, there’s still quite a few members who emphasize Ellen G. White. I ran into a website just the other day….

  4. My oldest buddy is SDA ‘Seventh Day Adventist’ and the thing that saddens me the most is that they are so easily deiceved about Ellen G White.

    On my blog I have links to EX SDA members and thier testimonys of how they got out of that ‘sect’.

    I also post my own amatuer answers to thier propaganda.

  5. THIS IS AN EYE OPENER THERE IS A SITE CALLED THE WORLDS LAST CHANCE, THAT SOUNDS LIKE SDA CAN ANYONE HERE TELL ME IF IT IS?

  6. Yes, Seventh-day Adventism is one of the four major cults that showed up in the nineteenth-century. There is not even one SDA doctrine that is not tainted with heresy to some degree.

    A former SDA minister,

    Dennis Fischer
    E-mail: dfministries@gmail.com

  7. Dear Dennis:

    Thank you very much for your comment. I am just now beginning to understand that this organization is not simply a denomination or sect, but an outright cult; begun by a false prophet and spawned the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

    I’ve even begun a new category on DefCon for SDA because their false teachings need to be addressed.

    For false prophets will arise, misleading many . . .

    – The Pilgrim

  8. No doubt about it, the SDA religion is a cult. I was raised in it and didn’t see the light until I was 45 years old and began to study the bible for myself for the first time. When I discovered the Grace message and realized that Jesus died for ALL my sins, past, present and future, I then was saved and haven’t looked back. I have started my own ministry to those still in the SDA church and God is working mightily.

    Shalom

  9. Seventh-day Adventism is founded upon the Millerite deception of October 22, 1844–the failed date of Christ’s predicted second coming. Ellen White, co-founder of Adventism, was merely one of dozens of young Millerite women who were visioning at that time. To his credit, William Miller was most annoyed by these fanatical followers who were visioning and often shouting at many private gatherings. He never believed in any of them. Moreover, when October 22, 1844 came and went, Miller fully admitted his error. On the other hand, Ellen White and a few devout followers refused to admit that they were duped.

  10. thank you very much for exposing the Seventh day Adventist cult. i really appreciate it. may the good Lord richly bless all of you.

  11. umm im kinda confused here not that i dont agree with what assumptions you’ve brought up but if seventh day adventists are the only Remnant church keeping the sabbath where are true followers of Christ suppose to go?

    Cause I’ve called all the churches in my yellowpages and every denomination worships on sunday i only found the 7 day adventist section to still worship on saturday and there were only 2 of those…every other denomination has long lists believe me my city has plenty of churches but it just seems to me im better off not going at all or just going to worship on saturday but not actually ‘joining’?

  12. Hezekiah,

    If you’re convinced that you should worship on Saturday, find a good church (i.e. not Seventh Day Adventist) and go for it. However, there is no requirement for you to worship on Saturday. You can worship any day of the week. There are enough problems with the Seventh Day Adventist church that I would recommend not touching it with a ten foot pole.

    “One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God,” (Rom. 14:5-6).

    “Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.” (Col. 2:16-17).

    Thanks,
    Bill

  13. Galatians 2:16–Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

  14. Theres this website called Worlds last chance check it out they say they aren’t SDA but all their belief are like them…that site depressed me .

  15. I am a Seventh day Adventist. I love Jesus Christ. I’m having trouble with the statement by Bill:”However, there is no requirement for you to worship on Saturday.”

    Revelation 14:12 clearly illustrates in the discussion regarding The Last Day who it is that finds salvation in the Lord:

    “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. ”

    This reference above is not to two groups of people (commandment-keeping Jews and faithful Protestants). Here the prophet John writes of one group of people who have both characteristics.

    Do I keep the commandments to be saved, which failed spectacularly in man’s relationship to our Creator? No, I cannot of my own will keep these commandments because my own wicked nature is always against me, but that in response to the deep love of Christ, I love his Laws of Love. The fourth commandment written in sapphire stone BY THE VERY FINGER of our Lord, not once but twice (Moses in frustration broke the first tables), is a clear indication that the Lord never intended for man to change the moral laws. What many unfortunately do not understand is that yes, God did do away with certain previous requirements: namely the ordinances written by none other than THE HAND of Moses.

    Do you respect your Creator, or will you just do things your way? We are in the Valley of Decision and soon we will have made our decision: our own way or His. This of course is the age old argument. Be troubled in your soul regarding this concern, for to be like Jesus is to let the Holy Spirit lead you to follow his example: he was a Sabbath-keeper.

  16. Hi Denver,

    I am obedient to the 4th commandment, because I have entered my sabbath rest (Hebrews 4).

    I appreciate your sentiments, and would agree with you, but you never responded to the verses I cited (Romans 14:5-6, Colossians 2:16-17). It’s kind of funny that you told me I’m wrong without providing an exegesis of those passages.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  17. Hi all,

    First and foremost, I am a child of God, and then am a Christian, and then a Seventh-day Adventist. I grew up as an SDA, and just recently have taken my faith seriously.

    I do believe in Denver that there is a flaw in which certain Christians believe and teach others that they do not have to keep the Sabbath. It is, just like Denver said, written by God’s finger, and He has made it to last until the end of time.

    Regarding your texts, Bill, there is a danger in which you seem to present your texts. A few texts here and there can misconstrue what it is that the Bible is really saying. The texts that you posted (Rom 14:5-6 & Col 2:16-17) were not speaking about the ordinary, every week Sabbath that we are commanded to keep. They are there because Paul felt the need to tell the Jews that the ceremonial laws are over and done with. These are ceremonial laws that Paul was writing about, and NOT the Ten Commandments. This was the case with the “Jews” uniformly, who regarded the days of their festivals, and fasts, and ceremonial Sabbaths as especially sacred.

    Paul also wrote to the Galatians, in chapter 4:9-10: 9But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years!”

    So we can find that the things that Paul wrote are similar to the Romans, Colossians and Galatians, in which he talks about the ceremonial laws written by Moses himself, and not God.

    Also, remember what Christ said to His disciples in Matthew 5:17-18

    17″Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.”

    Not the least stroke of a pen disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Jesus did not come down to this earth to abolish the laws that GOD has given, BUT the laws that Moses has written. And certain people view the “accomplished” part of the sentence as Jesus dieing on the cross. However, this is NOT the case, As Jesus, in the SAME sentence, stated that until heaven and earth disappear. So His laws will remain until that day that He comes.

    Keep also in mind, what God said in that commandment. God stated to keep THE Sabbath day, not A Sabbath day. For it is the seventh day of the week that God has commanded us to keep, not Sunday, not Monday, or any other day, but the Sabbath, which when studied, is believed to mean Saturday.

    So is the truth relative? That we can worship on any day that we want? I believe not, for God has commanded us to keep His Sabbath day holy, and not any day that we want.

    I pray that God’s words have been helpful to you and your walk with Him.

    Marc

  18. The weekly, festal Sabbath (Lev. 23:1-3) is one of the seven convocations given to the “sons of Israel.” With its extra sacrificing and shewbread requirements, the weekly Sabbath is clearly ceremonial or ritual in nature. The Fourth Commandment NEVER was a moral law because moral laws are in effect every nanosecond of time (24/7) and not merely once a year, season, month, or week. Moreover, unlike ceremonial laws, moral laws never allow exceptions (being trumped) for works of charity, mercy, or necessity. Since the Decalogue is a summary of the 613 laws in the Torah (Pentateuch), it should not surprise us to find a ceremonial law in the very heart of the Ten Commandments. After all, the weekly Sabbath, given only to the Hebrew people (Deut. 5:3), was the seal of the Mosaic Covenant.

    There is no command to observe any particular day in the entire book of Genesis. The Sabbath is first mentioned in Exodus 16 in a ceremonial context of the manna. Deuteronomy 5:15 tells the former slaves in Egypt (Israelites) to remember the Sabbath as a memorial of their freedom from slavery. Neither my ancestors nor myself have ever been slaves in Egypt. My ethnicity is not Jewish.

    The apostle Paul tells us, in Colossians 2:16-17, that the Sabbath was a shadow pointing to Jesus, the true Sabbath Rest. Notice, in this passage, the distinct descinding order of the festival (annual), new moon (monthly), and the Sabbath (weekly). The late SDA Sabbath apologist, Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi of Andrews University, finally agreed that Colossians 2:16 refers to the weekly Sabbath. This was a major admission on his part in order to maintain some level of respect in scholarly circles. His scholarship ultimately required him to radically differ with Ellen White, the revered SDA prophetess, on this important topic.

    In Seventh-day Adventism, the weekly Sabbath is also the seal of God and the final test (both claims without any Scriptural authority). No other Sabbatarian group agrees with SDAs on this addition to the Bible. The biblical truth is that there no holy days in the Christian calendar. Christians do not have to wait until the end of the week to find divine rest in Jesus, but rather the writer of Hebrews declares repeatedly that there remains a rest for the people of God and that day is TODAY (Heb. 4:1-10). Truly, those who still insist upon observing any of the OT shadows pointing to the Cross are actually denying the reality of Christ.

    Please listen to the following audio link to hear an excellent sermon, delivered by Dr. John MacArthur, Jr., that is most helpful to serious Bible students on this topic: http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/90-225.htm .

    Resting in Him,

    Dennis J. Fischer, a former SDA minister
    E-mail: dfministries@gmail.com

  19. Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

    James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

    I am so glad that my salvation came by the Grace of God and not by the works of the Law. If it had, then I could never be saved.

  20. Shane,

    Salvation has always been by grace alone (i.e., Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord, the first promise of a Savior (Gen. 3:15), etc.). Our awesome and sovereign God will NOT end up with two different groups of people in heaven–those saved by grace and those saved by the law. God does not owe us anything. He would still be a wonderful and just God without saving even one person. The fact that He saves His elect makes grace even more amazing.

    Due to our original sin condition, we all deserve death (eternal separation from God). Indeed, salvation is from the Lord (Jonah 2:9). The OT believers looked forward to the Cross for their salvation, and believers today look back at the Cross for the same salvific reason. The good news is that God never goes on a rescue mission that fails. It’s all about Him! Soli Deo Gloria!

    In His power and for His glory,

    Dennis J. Fischer

  21. As I have studied the Sabbath I have found that it has been discussed, debated and divided over throughout church history. From time long before there ever was an Ellen G. White on the scene. All one has to do is peruse the writings of many Christians from years gone by like the reformers and Puritans, to find that they along with many others even today believe the moral law; that is the 10 commandments, are still in effect for the Christian. This including of course the Sabbath.

    The difference between these believers and the SDA’s and other such Sabbatarian groups comes down to the day. Some say Saturday, others Sunday or what came to be called the Lord’s day. I’m not here to argue either side but simply to point out the SDAs are far, far from the only ones who believe the Sabbath, rightly or wrongly, is still in effect. Just go to Sermon Audio and look up Sabbath in the Sermons and you will find this to be so.

    As far as the SDA’s I cannot speak much to their beliefs as I have not studied them in great detail, but in general, it is not fair to say that one who believes the 10 Commandments are still in effect and by this they observe the Sabbath/Lord’s Day, are believers in salvation by works. For if this were so then the same thing needs to be said for any one who seeks to be obedient to any command of God like avoiding fornication, or desisting from taking the Lord’s name in vain.

  22. I have tried to talk to members of my family that beleive there salvation is dependent upon them living a good enough life and doing enough good. I have shown them the standard verses about how we can never do enough good to secure our salvation. They take the verses about salvation being a free gift, that we have peace with God, and eternal life and basically ad conditions to them. They have been Christians for over 50 years and still don’t know if they wil get into Heaven. They don’t beleive in doing anything on Sundays other than go to church. I have told them that if they are tring to keep the Old Testament sabbath they are really on the wrong day anyway.

    Seemsto me like the “Old Time Holiness Pentecostals” and the Seventh Day Adventists, and Jehovah’s Witnesses actually have a lot in common. It is all about what they can do and not what Jesus (God, Yes Jesus is The God not just a god) has done.

    “The faith that fizzles before the finish was faulty from the start.”
    Adrian Rogers

  23. Marc, you said:

    So is the truth relative? That we can worship on any day that we want? I believe not, for God has commanded us to keep His Sabbath day holy, and not any day that we want.

    Are you really saying there is actually a WRONG time to worship God? That God would mark you with the beast for worshipping Him at the wrong time?

  24. Sojourner,

    You asked if I said there is actually a WRONG time to worship God. That is not what I said. Please do not put words into my mouth that I have not truly said.

    It is true that God has told us to keep the Sabbath. And I’m not here to convict anyone to worship on the same day as I am for Paul said that we shouldn’t try to convict anyone of what we believe because they may not be governed by what each of one might believe. So I apologize if I seemed like I tried to convict anyone.

    Now, although I believe that the Sabbath is simply a day to be distinguished from the rest, where you stop from your daily doings, like work, sports, daily mundane things. The Sabbath is there so we can make time for God from our daily things. Now, we are supposed to worship Him EVERY DAY, and make time for Him everyday, but those days are not truly devoted to God, because we have work to do, we have things to do at home. So our days are filled with other things that take the time that we are supposed to be worshipping God. So the Sabbath is made for us to have a day that is truly devoted to Him and Him alone, and the Sabbath is that day.

  25. If you’d like to know the true story of D. M. Canright’s inspiration to write his two classic books: Seventh-day Adventism Renounced, and The Life of Mrs. E.G. White than I’d strongly recommend that you thoughtfully listen to the following audio message by W Santee entitled – Give God the Glory.

    Canright’s works have been rightfully held up as the foundation of contemporary criticism of SDA ism & E.G. White

    http://www.audioverse.org/sermons/recordings/1780/give-god-glory.html

    Indeed – Give God the Glory!

  26. To piggy-back off of Brother Michael’s point – I am a Seventh-day Adventist and while I do believe that the ten commandments are the transcript of God’s character (and God’s description of how to love God and your brother as yourself), I do not believe that the law – neither God’s law given on the mountain to Moses, nor the summary of the laws given by Jesus in Matthew 22:40 – can or will save me (Ephesians 2:8).
    I believe that the only thing that can save me is an ongoing, real, relationship with Jesus Christ. It is because I love Jesus that I seek to do the things that please him. This includes attempting to live by all the commandments (something I cannot do in and of myself, but only through the Holy Spirit). I do not gain the indwelling of the Holy Spirit by keeping the law, or by any action of my own. All I can do is thankfully accept Jesus’ cleansing sacrifice, and ask that the Holy Spirit take over my life, and guide my actions and choices. It is only because of the Holy Spirit that I can do anything as a Christian. It is as Jesus said – he is the vine, and we are the branches (John 15:5). My study of the Bible and history has led me to the belief that the Sabbath is important, so I celebrate God’s Sabbath as Jesus did. There are many legalistic Adventists who think that they can be saved by keeping the law, just as there are legalistic Christians in other denominations who believe that not fornicating, not lying, not stealing, and honoring their parents can save them. That said, it is not my place to judge anyone else who has not yet found the Sabbath truth, or who has not been convicted of any other Bible truth. I believe that conviction is the job of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8), and that my job is to encourage fellow Christians in their walk with Jesus and to help them study the word. I believe that Christians ARE called upon to hold each other accountable for what we say we believe, and while I do not agree with your theology (or your method), I applaud the motivation behind this blog.

    A note on the Sabbath: The first mention of God blessing and sanctifying the seventh-day Sabbath is found in Genesis 2:3 (not in Exodous). It makes no sense that God would order Adam and Eve not to work, because the ground was not cursed, etc. etc. until after sin.

  27. “The weekly Sabbath, i.e., Saturday, is not the real Sabbath. It never was, and it is not now. It is a picture or a reminder of the real Sabbath. The true Sabbath is a rest; the Jewish Sabbath is a shadow, a picture of that rest. All the Old Testament shadows were looking forward to the coming of the One who would fulfill these and thus end them. When the work of Jesus Christ was finished the shadows were no longer needed.”

    (Excerpt from Ray C. Stedman; The Seventh Day, 10/10/67, The Beginnings: Commentary on Genesis)

    Resting in Him,

    Dennis Fischer
    E-mail: dfministries@gmail.com

  28. It is interesting that the Apostle Paul wrote that believers should let no man judge them in keeping sabbaths, special days, etc.

    There were Judaizers telling gentile brethren that if they really wanted to be right with the Lord, they needed to do this and that, including keeping the Saturday Sabbath.

    If your conviction is to keep it, do so, to the glory of God.

    But by no means scold your brother who does not, usurping the authority of an apostle of Jesus Christ (Paul) who, in the God-breathed Scripture, dismantles your claim. Scripture interprets Scripture. We don’t get to throw chunks of it out and ignore them because it may make our claims wobbly.

    One cannot ignore Paul’s writing merely because one has no contextually sound way to address it as meaning anything other than it plainly does: let no man judge you in keeping of sabbaths. It’s just too plainly put.

    Christ is the True Sabbath. That’s why those who are heavily laden and burdened flee to Him. The believer keeps Christ always, ergo the believer is always keeping the True Sabbath.

    Do not cause Christ’s little ones to stumble by setting a matter clearly portrayed as that of your personal conviction as a definitve ‘seal’ of a true (or mature) believer. The Seal of the believer is the Holy Spirit, Who indwells only those who belong to the Lamb. Have you not read how the apostles knew that God was saving gentiles because they witnessed the Holy Spirit in them?

  29. BOTH sides of the documentary’s accusations please visit…

    That’s it? Pretty weak…

    At best, ‘he said, she said.’

  30. Notice that Moses very carefully, intentionally, and repetitively notated each of the six days of creation in Genesis 1 with “there was morning and there was evening” (ESV). However, when Moses wrote about the seventh day, the “morning and evening” phrase was conspicuously omitted in Genesis 2:1-3. God rested because He was finished and not because He was tired and needed physical rest.

    There is no mandate in Genesis for observing a literal day nor that God rested every seventh day thereafter. When sin entered the perpetual Sabbath was broken. When Jesus was questioned about his Sabbath breaking, He answered, “My Father is working until now, and I am working” (John 5:17 ESV). Indeed, the apostle John reports, in the very next verse, that Jesus was “breaking the Sabbath” (v. 18).

    As Adam entered into God’s rest after creation, we enter into His rest after redemption. Jesus is our Sabbath. The Christian worships the Lord on the first day of the week, the day Jesus rose from the dead, because that resurrection day was the day mankind again could rest in the joy of the Lord. He lives again today in hearts unfettered by ritual or ceremonial laws that were a picture or shadow of the Cross. Indeed, those who insist upon observing any of the the shadows pointing to the Cross are actually denying the reality of Jesus Christ.

    In awe of the guilt-removing, sin-atoning sacrifice of Jesus,

    Dennis Fischer
    E-mail: dfministries@gmail.com

  31. I am with You Denver totally I have no doubts at all, One of this Pastor or Ex SDA, and others claim that the Good source is the other evangelical Churches..
    I Know ALL OF THEM and I know HOW CONFUSE, PERMISIVE AND WRONG TEACHING AND DOCTRINE OF MAN they have….If you Know the Bible and the Bible only You wont be deceive,
    but please dont tell me Evangelical churches have Bible doctrine because they DON’T…
    If your trust in man and their interpretation…you will be deceive by them….
    The Bible got me out of Sunday Keeping churches and their confuse teaching…
    and the Only one that The Bible itself got me in is the SDA Church..and the first time I hear one of their preaches, I was jumping OUR JOY, and this is what I say…Finally someone teaching WHAT I KNOW AND UNDERSTAND FROM THE BIBLE and not churches ro mans Doctrine..

  32. After researching and reading my Bible, I truly believe that 7th Day Adventists are brainwashed into believing that they are the remnant church and that you need to follow the Sabbath or you will receive the mark of the beast. These videos above prove that SDA is a cult, especially when you adhere to and believe that Ellen White’s prophesies should be part of the Bible! (as demonstrated with the Clear Word Bible).

    Please, if you have any family or friends who are SDA, show them this website as it will clearly open their eyes and ears to the REAL TRUTH – God and the Bible alone!!

  33. So, Gloria, you’re still under the yoke of the Law?

    How’s that working for you? Have you kept the Law? ALL of it??

    I didn’t think so.

    Oh, and that tired old “roman doctrine” straw man of Sunday worship has been soundly refuted. Because the first day of the week was the day on which Jesus rose from the dead and appeared to his disciples, and Pentecost fell on the first day in which the Church was born and the Holy Spirit given to indwell the saints, it became customary in the early Church for many congregations to assemble for worship on the Lord’s Day, the first day of the week (Sunday).

    Acts 20:7,

    “On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight.”

    1 Corinthians 16:2,

    “On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come.”

    See! No Rome!

    … just a lot of mud-slinging from you, Gloria.

    Resting in the Lord EVERY day,
    – Jeff H

  34. Well…..true to most denominational arguments , I feel we are all brothers and sisters in Christ here, and we will eventually see all the details and meanings clearly…in the end. I think all denominations, per se, tend to appear as a bunch of squabbling 4 year olds, if you stand back from the argument. Indeed, “What would Jesus say” ?

    For fairness , this site explores the Seventh Day Sabbath in support of : http://www.sabbath-day.com/site.html

    And, for the record, I am a SDA member, and for most my whole life I was a member of what I considered to be a “dead” church in the Methodist church. I got absolutely nothing out of it…there was no Holy Spirit infused in me. As a member of the SDA church for many years now, I have received more blessings, a spine tingling close relationship with Jesus Christ and my friend and comforter, the Holy Spirit ..much more than I can describe. YOU WANT to do the “works” of being more and more Christ like! Because you ARE saved …and saved first..FIRST, not by works, but by the blessed grace of our Father thru Jesus Christ our …THAT’s ALL OUR’s, LORD and SAVIOR!!!
    Do I get an AMEN!!?? Now THAT’s the Holy Spirit I’m feeling.!

    Thanks for reading.
    Your brother in Christ,
    RIK in NOLA

  35. Many people accept as fact what they prefer to be true. However, the Bible teaches that we should only embrace sound doctrine. The NT writers spent alot of time exposing the heresies of their day. From apostolic times, Christendom has been continually assaulted by various cults and sects.

    QUESTION: What is worse than a wolf in sheep’s clothing? ANSWER: A wolf in shepherd’s clothing (Acts 20:29,30). Seventh-day Adventists and other cults frequently masquerade in our communities as authentic Evangelicals and/or Protestants. However, due to their embracing the extrabiblical authority and writings of Ellen White, they cannot be considered as Protestants who firmly uphold the battle cry of the Protestant Reformation; specifically, “sola scriptura” (by Scripture alone). Indeed, the Bible is God’s voice speaking to us, and it is an all-sufficient, inerrant guide for our salvation.

    His Word is consistent as well as coherent. John Calvin, for example, stated that we should read the Bible as if we have heard God audibly speaking its message. That is, it carries the same weight of authority as if God Himself were heard to be giving utterance to the words of Scripture. The human writers of Scripture were not machines and ought not be conceived of as being without personality. What is overcome or overriden by inspiration is not human personality, style or literary structure, but human tendencies to distortion, falsehood, and error.

    A former SDA minister,

    Dennis Fischer
    E-mail: dfministries@gmail.com

  36. And, for the record, I am a SDA member, and for most my whole life I was a member of what I considered to be a “dead” church in the Methodist church.

    No question the Methodist church has fallen (as a body) into apostasy. The question is: What was YOUR condition at the time? Was the church dead or were you? Perhaps both.

    I got absolutely nothing out of it…there was no Holy Spirit infused in me.

    If you were spiritually dead (ie not born again) then no wonder. Besides, Church is not just ABOUT you. It’s about glorifying God, and worshipping Him.

    As a member of the SDA church for many years now, I have received more blessings, a spine tingling close relationship with Jesus Christ and my friend and comforter, the Holy Spirit ..much more than I can describe.

    Yes we have feelings, but that is NOT what Church is about. Also, feelings can be deceiving.

    YOU WANT to do the “works” of being more and more Christ like!

    No, we do the works that the Father has prepared for us from the foundations of the world. God conforms us to the Image of His Son.

    Because you ARE saved …and saved first..FIRST, not by works, but by the blessed grace of our Father thru Jesus Christ our …THAT’s ALL OUR’s, LORD and SAVIOR!!!
    Do I get an AMEN!!??

    I don’t know what you’re trying to say here.

    However, if you are SDA, then you must (by SDA doctrine) obey the Sabbath. If you do this you are adding works to Christ’s atonement on the cross.

    That is blasphemous.

    Now THAT’s the Holy Spirit I’m feeling.!

    Feelings…. nothing more than feeeeeeeelings.

    Your brother in Christ,

    If your ‘jesus’ did not complete his work at calvary and you must keep the Sabbath still, then we have different Saviors and I am not your brother. Sorry.

  37. Jeff;
    –The church was dead. . It was luke warm as we are warned against. Not much to add to that. I was a new Christian and the church , as you stated in apostasy , was not feeding me the food I needed.
    –We can glorify God in a pasture and every waking moment…a church is a structure , a shell…in this case a dead shell. The spirit was alive in not only me, but many others..many which left the church because God’s word and love could not be enjoyed there.
    –Feeling can be deceiving, yes. Is why faith is so very important. I have full and unwavering faith in my Lord, and his words…the Holy Spirit shows me truths as Christ said would happen.
    –you are basically saying the same thing..word play. “God conforms us to the Image of His Son.”……same as Christ like and same as mind of Christ. If you are truly a child of Christ , you want to do what is pleasing to Him…our ears and mind are open to the direction of the Holy Spirit. You will know. As Jesus said in John 14:15,16,17
    15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    You know and read these verses as well.

    ——–
    You said..”However, if you are SDA, then you must (by SDA doctrine) obey the Sabbath. If you do this you are adding works to Christ’s atonement on the cross.
    That is blasphemous.”
    and “If your ‘jesus’ did not complete his work at calvary and you must keep the Sabbath still, then we have different Saviors and I am not your brother. Sorry.”

    One thing I have noted is the condescending nature of some people’s remarks regarding this. Not remarks of love that Christ would display. Just an observation..that the Holy Spirit points out to me…nothing personal.

    For every cause there is an effect. Obeying the Ten Commandments identifies the cause that will produce every good and desirable effect. But the world has been deceived, thinking that this great Law is burdensome and harsh, and lacks love and mercy. Yet, the world ignores the plain Word of God: “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments and His commandments are not grievous” (I John 5:3). The Ten Commandments are NOT done away! …..The sacrificial/ceremonial commandments were…..Jesus IS the sacrifice. BUT you know this.
    How in the world can you tell me that I’m not reading the Bible correctly when it plainly states that if you break one of my laws, you break them all? Was murder and adultery and idol worship also nailed to the cross?
    Of the commandments of “thy shall not’s” go, the 4th Commandment is the only one that is a covenent..forever….with God…given to us in love. Christ said that the Sabbath was made for man. In theory, if men made the Sabbath, they would have the right to tell you how to keep it. But since it was made for man, not by man, man does not determine how it should be kept. God does!
    Danial 7:25 is quite clear.

    Do you know that the Sabbath will be observed in Heaven?

    This is one of the greatest debates in theology. You know all these things. I KNOW I am saved , but by the blood of Christ and faith in the grace that was offered me.

    Without being sarcastic, I will again …

    Your brother in Christ.

    ————> and Pastor Dennis, I hear the words of God…..I ask to be shown things and I do receive them. And what a greater deception would it be that the one calling the Sheppard in sheep’s clothes the deceiver, actually be the real accuser…Satan has many games and is very wise. “….that even the Very Elect……”

    Peace
    Rik
    ————————————-

    ….also Pastor Dennis,
    I use Mrs White’s writings as you do Calvin…as do all the members of my church, at least on the local level. It’s just insight to me. The Bible is THE final authority. Many churches have arguments within and at high levels, which does not concern me. Many protestant churches splinter and split over doctrines…this is a fallacy of man. I’m sure you have your personal reasons for leaving the SDA church….your business. Many people change churches or quit all together. I don’t consider my church a cult per se…I’m free to go. I’m not brainwashed, much to you two’s disagreement. I certainly have many acquaintances that think that the Bible is a fairy tale and that all Christians are fools and cultist. The Catholic Church could be a considered a cult , yes?
    Definitions.

    ———————————————————–
    I’ll close out of here by saying that I truly appreciate the owner of this informative website and blog…..after all…the sharing of knowledge between people is a blessing in itself.
    L8
    R

  38. You said..”However, if you are SDA, then you must (by SDA doctrine) obey the Sabbath. If you do this you are adding works to Christ’s atonement on the cross.
    That is blasphemous.”
    and “If your ‘jesus’ did not complete his work at calvary and you must keep the Sabbath still, then we have different Saviors and I am not your brother. Sorry.”

    One thing I have noted is the condescending nature of some people’s remarks regarding this. Not remarks of love that Christ would display.

    When I say I’m sorry, I mean it. An adherent to the RCC is not my brother for the same reason you can’t be. You both worship a different ‘jesus’… one who could not finish his work on the cross and who still requires us to obey the Law. That is the very definition of legalism, and sends men to Hell.

    Your arguments for Sabbath keeping have all been soundly refuted here by those more adept than I. If you keep esteeming one day over other, despite the Bible’s admonitions, you are attempting to rob the Lamb of His glory and the full reward for His suffering.

  39. Rik,

    The size of an organized group does not determine whether they are a cult. Yes, using the same criteria as with Seventh-day Adventism, Roman Catholicism is indeed a cult (the standard Three S’s that determine a cult are its unbiblical views about sin, salvation, and the Savior). The HUGE difference in my quoting John Calvin and you quoting Ellen White is that I consider Calvin’s words inspiring and you consider Ellen White’s words “inspired” like the Bible. This makes the words of your prophetess into a “continuing and authoritative SOURCE of truth” as the official Adventist dogma proudly verifies.

    Indeed, Seventh-day Adventists claim to have a different Jesus. For example, they have told me countless times that they could NEVER love a God who torments His creatures in a place called hell. Apparently, they have never read 2 Peter 2:4 which says that certain evil angels have been chained and tormented in “pits of darkness” for thousands of years already. Truly, we can only appreciate God’s grace to the extent that we understand the depth of His divine wrath. Sin really is a big deal to God. It is cosmic treason against a holy, just God.

    On the other hand, Adventism trivializes sin by insisting that the ungodly, at worst, are merely subject to the momentary quick-fix of annihilation–the easy way out. Without any doubt, Satan and his angels would certainly prefer such a short-lived punishment. Moreover, Adventism does not deal with what the Bible refers to as “eternal sin.” The sins of the ungodly in hell are FOREVER before the Father as unconfessed and unforgiven. The theme song in hell could aptly be “I did it my way.”

    In awe of the guilt-removing, sin-atoning sacrifice of Jesus,

    Dennis Fischer
    E-mail: dfministries@gmail.com

    PS: By the way, it takes alot of faith to believe that heaven is eternal as well as hell is (Matt. 25:46). Jesus used the same adjective “eternal” to describe the duration for each place. However, in stark contrast, heaven only gets better while hell only gets worse.

  40. “Something tells me the only opposition to sda is just about sabbath.everything else is just a diversion”

    The false prophesises of hte hell bound ellen white are no diversion, such as hte investigative judgment and the teaching that Christ did not bare our sins, but satan instead. The false teaching that seeks to bring true children of God who are walking in the Spirit back under the letter is definately note worthy though.

    Christ will overthrow the 7th day “church” and all of those who choose to take part in her sins.

    “PS: By the way, it takes alot of faith to believe that heaven is eternal as well as hell is (Matt. 25:46). Jesus used the same adjective “eternal” to describe the duration for each place. However, in stark contrast, heaven only gets better while hell only gets worse.”

    The 7th day teaching of no eternal torment goes along with their pretense of keeping the letter of the law. They have no idea how guilty they are of sin, of its exceedingly sinfullness, or they would truly flee from their vain religous efforts and find true rest in Christ. As it is they will be eternally tormented as self condemed, warped, and hypocritical law breakers

  41. I am bemused by a common argument used against the observance of Sabbath; that is that ” Jesus is now my Sabbath rest” because this or that one has ceased from his own works. The insinuation is that those who do observe the Sabbath as a day of rest according to the commandment, have not ceased from their own works.
    My question is this, though it seems obvious to me: how can anyone observe the day as a Sabbath, without ceasing from his/her own works?

    As a corollary to this, can we observe any commandment without ceasing from our own works? Does not death to self and the infilling of the Holy Spirit create in us the image of Christ? Is this not called sanctification? And because we are transformed into the image of Christ, would it also not be in conformity to the law that Christ wrote on the tables of stone, and which He now writes on the tables of our hearts? We can’t accomplish this without surrender ; without ceasing from our own works. Sanctification is simply that. The changing of the life to make it conformable to God’s standards of righteousness. And Ezekiel tells us that by observing the Sabbath, the day, we are acknowledging that it is God Who is doing the sanctifying, and not we ourselves. So by keeping the Sabbath, it is actually a sign we have indeed ceased from our own works, and trusting in Christ’s working in us His righteousness.

    2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

    Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

    Further to this, no Christian I know of whatever denomination, would suggest that because Jesus fulfilled the law, it is now legitimate for Christians to commit murder, because they are no longer under the law. That would surely be quite preposterous. Yet we constantly witness claims by many that because we are not under the law, we are no longer obliged to honor it. This is so incredibly inconsistent. The reason I am not under the law is not because the law has been done away with, but because the blood of Jesus has released me from it’s condemnation. That however does not release me from it’s power to convict me again of sin should I choose to disobey it.
    This also applies to the 4th commandment. Just because Jesus fulfilled the law by keeping the Sabbath, , (that is He kept the law, obeyed it and thus magnified the law making it honorable) that does not release me from my obligation to keep the Sabbath, magnifying it and making it honorable. If obligation makes anyone feel uncomfortable, sorry, but I would use that same word for every one of the ten commandments. We are obliged to love our neighbor and thus not commit adultery, not covet, not steal, not get angry and kill, and respect and honor our parents. We are also obliged to love God by confessing Him as the One and Only true God, Maker of heaven and earth, and all things therein. Because He is our Creator, He has sole rights to our worship, our fidelity and service. That is why we shun idols. It is also why we would not dare to use His name disrespectfully. It is also why we choose to honor that day which recognises Him as our Creator, and brings to our remembrance why He deserves our worship, and why the whole law and our keeping it is a recognition of His authority in our lives.

    I am an SDA. Permit me if you will to try and explain from my perspective. That however may not entirely gel with what you have heard from other SDAs, but hey, nobody’s perfect, yet.
    The Sabbath IS different from all the other commandments. However, being different, does not make it any less a commandment. Let me explain. In any society, whether they have had contact with missionaries or the western world or perhaps no contact with anyone in the outside world, would over a period of time develop a code of ethics by which to live under. These will eventually develop into laws, and may very well get to a stage where they actually resemble the ten commandments. Except for the Sabbath of the 4th.
    There is simply no way any society anywhere could come up with such an idea. For one, it marks the week. The week is a time period which is a unique witness to creation. Every other time period known to man is based on natural cycles of either the moon or the sun or the stars. That is in fact why they were created: that they may be for signs and seasons etc. But the weekly cycle is based on nothing other than the word of God. And yet it has endured. There have been attempts over the centuries to change it; someone one time tried to implement a 10 day week, but failed.
    The Sabbath is the same. It is not based upon any moral principle as such, but purely and simply on the word of God. Period. It is a commandment that comes by no other authority except by revelation. Therefore, our acceptance or rejection of it ultimately comes down to our attitude to God’s authority.
    Another reason why it would not be a part of any such community’s law is the fact that it is a memorial. A memorial of a specific event. Again, only revelation would induce anyone to include such a commandment in any law.
    But does that make the commandment any less important? Any less ‘moral’ to obey? As the scriptures state,to him who knows to do good but does it not, to him it is sin. Clearly, some here do not yet recognise the Sabbath, so for you it is not sin when you so disregard it. But maybe ones sin in such a case lies not in the fact that one may not be observing the Sabbath, but perhaps, and please I do stress perhaps, it lies in an unwillingness to accept something that may prove awkward or inconvenient or disturbing? Therefore one may not so diligently search for that truth or consider it so seriously? Therefore the sin lies more in the refusal to accept God’s authority over man’s?

    Check out your concordance and count the number of times the word Sabbath appears in scripture. In both old and new testaments it echoes across the pages of the Bible from one end to the other. It is a day that is clearly very very important to God. It was a day that was instituted at creation, was intended to be continued throughout history (as the episode with the gathering of manna before Sinai shows) and was reinforced with much grandeur and fanfare from Mt Sinai. What a awesome display of God’s glory and power that must have been. Lightning, thunder, earthquakes,fire and smoke, black clouds, trumpets and booming voice, no wonder Israel feared and ran away.
    Yet we are led to believe that one of those commandments, the very one that God placed deliberately in the heart of the ten, one that comes by no other source but from His own lips, has been done away without as much as a whimper? If the early church suddenly began ignoring the Sabbath as is supposed, where was the debate? Where was the controversy with the Jewish legalists who were all looking for the slightest excuse to malign the new movement? Why was it not an issue like circumcision? I would strongly suggest to you that the reason it never came up for any debate was that the early church kept the Sabbath faithfully , both Jew and gentile, and it was not an issue.

    It is a fact that Christians did keep the Sabbath but stopped. Over a period of time and for several reasons, Sunday became more popular and through church councils and enforcement, ‘Judaising’ or Sabbath keeping was forbidden by the ruling church /state power.
    When pagan Rome began to persecute and wage relentless war against Jews in the 2nd century as a result of several Jewish uprisings, Jews and Christians alike were rounded up and carted off to imprisonment or worse. Many Christians felt they needed to be seen to be a separate group and people from Jews and began disregarding the Sabbath. For the Roman, this was a very significant thing. A Jew who didn’t keep Sabbath was unheard of . So Christians who began observing Sunday in honor of the resurrection were left alone. Eventually, when Constantine claimed to be a Christian, half the empire was Christian; it became politically expedient for Constantine to recognise Christianity as an officially recognised religion.
    To make Christianity more acceptable to pagans, Constantine made Sunday the official day of rest. Sunday at that time was the official day for sun worship, and ‘baptising’ it brought acceptability and unity to the empire.
    The church in Rome which took over the Roman civil authority when Constantine left for Constantinople, at the council of Laodicea made Sunday the official church day of worship in line with Constantine’s civil edict.
    Not all Christianity accepted this however. Elsewhere where Roman influence was less significant eg in Ethiopia, Britain, and Asia, the Sabbath was kept by the Christian church for centuries. By some even right up to the 17th and 18 th centuries.

    Someone suggested that the commandment has no applicability to them because they are not of Israel, and not a child of Jacob. But if you are a Christian, you are indeed a child of Jacob. And only children of Jacob will be entering through the gates into the New Jerusalem. Where according to Isaiah, the saints will be worshipping God on the Sabbath for all eternity.

    Finally, an oft repeated inference is that SDA’s believe that they need to be saved by their obedience rather than by the grace and mercy of a loving Father through the redemption provided by His Son. Tell me, do you steal? Lie? Cheat on your taxes? Kill? Dishonour your parents? Are you unfaithful to your wife? Do you worship idols? IS THERE ANYTHING IN YOUR LIFE MORE IMPORTANT TO YOU THAN GOD? If you answered no to all the above, then well done! But how did you accomplish such a feat??? Was it not by the grace of God???? Then so also do I keep the Sabbath Day holy by the grace of God.
    Regards to all and much love in Christ
    Brendan.

  42. Brendan,

    Thanks for stopping by. I have a few questions to ask you.

    1. Do you believe that the mark of the beast has any reference to those who do not worship on a Saturday?
    2. In following the original law as the Jews do, does your church begin the Sabbath on Friday night at 6:00pm and conclude at 6:00pm on Saturday?
    3. What do you believe you would say if Jesus were to ask you, “Why should I let you into my heaven?” What would your answer be?
    4. Do your prophets have an exemption clause from being 100% correct? The Scriptures are clear that a prophet who was not 100% correct in their prophesying was to be stoned. This would mean that all writings and teachings of that individual should be rejected as not coming from God.

    The Desert Pastor

  43. The Fourth Commandment never was a MORAL directive–not even under the Old Covenant. With its weekly shewbread replacement and special sacrificing requirements, it was clearly a shadow pointing to the Cross as were the other festal Sabbaths listed in Lev. 23. I have never met a Sabbatarian who didn’t agree that the Fourth Commandment pointed to Jesus, the Bread of Life and the Lamb of God, in its ceremonial or ritual aspects just mentioned. Since the Decalogue is a basic summary of the Torah, it should not surprise us find a ceremonial commandment therein. After all, the Torah contains far more ritual, civil, and judicial laws than moral ones.

    Indeed, Christians no longer gaze intently upon the fading shadows of the sun for two days out of every week (Fridays and Saturdays), but rather they focus upon the unsurpassing glory of God the Son. Those who still insist upon observing any shadow, pointing to the Cross, are actually denying the reality of Christ. Jesus is our true Sabbath Rest (Matt. 11:28-30; Col. 2:16,17, Heb. 4:1-10). Under the New Covenant, believers no longer have to wait until the end of each week to rest in Jesus. Instead, they find rest in Him daily. To God alone be all the honor, glory, and praise!

  44. A MORAL law is in effect 24/7 (every nanosecond of time) and not merely once a year, season, month, or week. Unlike ceremonial or ritual laws, moral laws NEVER allow exceptions for works of charity, mercy, or necessity. Moreover, the festal, weekly Sabbath was trumped every time a circumcision was due on the eighth day. Additionally, unlike the other nine commandments in the Decalogue, various acts of charity, mercy, and necessity trumped the Sabbath law repeatedly and routinely.

    Importantly, the unending, perpetual Sabbath (no “evening and morning” limitations) that began after the six days of creation is not the same Sabbath that was given to the Israelites on Mount Sinai. The Jewish Sabbath in itself was a special covenant that excluded the Gentiles (exceptions being when a Gentile visited a Jewish family or the Temple on the Sabbath). God-fearers (Gentile converts) were not required to observe the Jewish Sabbath. Even today, it is an insult to many devout Jews when they learn that a Gentile is observing their special day commemorating their freedom from Egyptian slavery (Deut. 5:15).

    What’s more, God had made man on the sixth day, so that the very first day that dawned upon Adam was the Sabbath of God. Man immediately entered into the enjoyment of the Creator’s rest. When God finishes His work, we benefit by entering into rest with Him.

    But that rest was quickly destroyed by man’s sin. The Sabbath was destroyed. The tempter came, man rebelled against God and the rest was broken. In the ages that follow man appears to have forgotten that the Sabbath was “made for man” not man for the Sabbath. It took Jesus to straighten out man’s thinking (Mark 2:27-28). He is Lord of the Sabbath, and still some thinking appears to be confused about what the Sabbath means.l But if we remember the law of the Sabbath without remembering the purpose of the Sabbath, we only remember the code and not the Christ.

    Of all the Ten Commandments, the only one not repeated in the New Testament, the only one not germane to living under grace instead of law, was the fourth commandment–remember the Sabbath day, keep it holy, do no work, rest the seventh day. There’s good reason for this omission. When God finished the work of creation He rested. When God finished the work of redemption again He rested (John 19:30). Jesus finished the work (John 17:4). He put away sin; the work of redemption was complete, and it was very good. The rest that existed from Creation to the Fall was now restored. Jesus said, “Come unto Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” (Matt. 11:28).

    As Adam entered into God’s rest after creation, we enter into His rest after redemption. Between these was the law and labor. Keeping the law never brought salvation, but it never brought divine rest for the human soul either. JESUS IS OUR SABBATH. The Christian worships the Lord on the first day of the week, the day Jesus rose from the dead, because that resurrection day was the day mankind again could rest in the joy of the Lord.

    Dennis Fischer
    E-mail: dfministries@gmail.com
    Blog: notesfromdennisfischer.blogspot.com

  45. Thanks for stopping by.
    My pleasure….

    1. Do you believe that the mark of the beast has any reference to those who do not worship on a Saturday?
    I think that before I can answer this we had better come to some understanding on who the beast is don’t you think? On that I am happy to provide my views here http://brakelite.wordpress.com/2010/04/22/antichrist-revealed/
    If you don’t agree with my conclusions (there is more evidence under the subtitle “characteristics of the Little Horn”…a long read but hey, what else have we got to do? :=) )then we aren’t going to agree with what the mark is will we? But if you agree that the beast is the papacy, then the mark of the papacy is fairly straightforward. She claims Sunday sacredness as her own baby and promoted it above the Sabbath as a mark of her authority in religious matters. The fact that most of protestantism goes along with that theory gives tacit approval to that authority.
    2. In following the original law as the Jews do, does your church begin the Sabbath on Friday night at 6:00pm and conclude at 6:00pm on Saturday?
    I didn’t know the Jews began their days from 6 and finished at 6. The Bible says evening and morning constituted one day. For me that’s sunset to sunset.
    I think Nehemiah had the same idea.
    Ne 13:19 And it came to pass, that when the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark before the sabbath, I commanded that the gates should be shut, and charged that they should not be opened till after the sabbath: and some of my servants set I at the gates, that there should no burden be brought in on the sabbath day.

    3. What do you believe you would say if Jesus were to ask you, “Why should I let you into my heaven?” What would your answer be?
    Because there is no condemnation for them that are in Christ Jesus. On that note, what do you make of my summation of the gospel? http://brakelite.wordpress.com/2010/04/11/three-spiritual-laws-that-govern-life/

    4. Do your prophets have an exemption clause from being 100% correct? The Scriptures are clear that a prophet who was not 100% correct in their prophesying was to be stoned. This would mean that all writings and teachings of that individual should be rejected as not coming from God.
    To my knowledge, the SDA church lays claim to having had only one prophet, as you probably are already aware. So allow me to clear up a couple of misconceptions regarding E G White.
    1. She never claimed to be a prophet.
    2. She grew in her understanding of truth.
    3. Some of her earlier beliefs she later held to be error.
    4. She was not infallible.
    5. Not everything she wrote was inspired.
    6. She was a lesser light.
    7. She wrote for her time.
    8. She is not the basis of any doctrine.

    All these statements are true but without clarification they could cause people to come to terribly wrong conclusion. Further clarification is necessary:

    1. She never claimed to be a prophet.
    She actually claimed that her work embraced that of a prophet and MORE than a prophet.

    2. She grew in her understanding of truth.
    So did Daniel and other Bible prophets. She did not however change the teaching of any of her inspired writings.

    3. At one time she held faulty views.
    So did some Bible prophets, however, like other true prophets her inspired writings are the truth. The views in her testimonies are not her views but God’s truth.

    4. She was not infallible.
    Neither were any of the Bible prophets. Only God is infallible. The issue is not whether Ellen White was infallible but whether her writings are. The inspired writings of true prophets are infallible for the Holy Spirit is infallible.
    “In regard to infallibility, I never claimed it; God alone is infallible. His word is true, and in Him is no variableness, or shadow of turning. (Letter 10, 1895),
    E.G. White, Selected Messages Book 1, p37.
    All prophets, even true prophets, can have wrong concepts of truth and incomplete understanding. Daniel had misconceptions and misunderstandings (Dan 8:27; 9:19; 12:8). Even the apostles who all had the gift or prophecy, misunderstood Christ’s mission in the beginning. Because they made mistakes, does that make them false prophets?

    5. Not everything she wrote was inspired.
    Things like her shopping list.

    6. She was a lesser light.
    All Bible prophets were also lesser light pointing to Christ the great light. How much darkness is there in light? There is no darkness in light however lesser that light might be. Ellen White was a lesser light as was Moses and the Apostle Paul. All prophets are lesser lights compared to Christ the Light of the world.

    7. She wrote for her time.
    So did the Apostle Paul but, just like Paul, Ellen White’s counsels and principles are applicable to all time.

    8. She is not the basis of doctrine.
    The Bible is the basis of all doctrine. Her writings are always in harmony with the Bible. Her inspired testimonies helped define what was truth and error during the formation of the Seventh day Adventist church. Her writings continue to define truth from error.

    I agree with your summation. Either Ellen White is a 100% true prophet and we must accept all her messages as from God OR we must identify her as a false prophet and should reject all her writings.

  46. Brendan: Let’s look over the point of the Catholic Church as the Antichrist. Revelation refers to the Beast as a person, not an institution (e.g. statues that look like him, declaring himself to be God, he being cast into the Lake of Fire). So while it theoretically could be a pope, it is not the Catholic Church itself.

    Also, according to SDA doctrine, the Mark of the Beast is keeping the Sabbath on Sunday. Problem is that the Mark itself is a physical sign, as it is put on foreheads and right hands; my church has services on Sunday and I have yet to see a tattoo artist at the door, let alone someone with a “Sabbath is on Sunday.”

    The other problem with this idea is the SDA doctrine that attending church on Sunday is accepting the Mark of the Beast; this is making a VERY dangerous claim – actually, one of two dangerous claims. Revelation makes it clear that whoever accepts the Mark of the Beast is beyond redemption (only those who did not accept the Mark are allowed into Heaven). Therefore, reconciling that means either God lied about that part or once a person worships on a Sunday, all hope is lost for them. So, pick your poison.

  47. Hi Dennis.
    You write of moral laws as contained in the Decalogue, pointing out that the Sabbath commandment isn’t a moral law. I agree. But why does that make a difference as to our obligation to obey a direct commandment from God? If Jesus said to you jump, are you going to refuse on account that jumping isn’t a moral obligation? But what about obedience? Surely obedience to God IS a moral obligation, 24/7, whatever the requirement is.
    You claim that the sacrifices that were offered on that day made the day a type or shadow of the cross. I disagree. The sacrifices were indeed types and shadows, which is why they are no longer relevant apart from study. However, we are not talking about the sacrifices that were made on the Sabbath, we are talking about the Sabbath itself. The DAY. It was the DAY that God made holy, sanctified, and blessed. It wasn’t even the rest that God sanctified, it was the DAY, the period of time from evening to evening on the seventh DAY. A memorial of creation, not a shadow or type of anything that was to come, but a memorial. In Deuteronomy God gave the Israelite nation even further reason to honour the day when He added to the significance of it by making it also a memorial of their deliverance from slavery. As Christians we also honour the Sabbath as a memorial of creation AND as a memorial of our deliverance from sin. Nowhere Dennis, and I challenge you to find it, is there any text or passage in the NT stating clearly and succinctly that the obligation to honour the Sabbath DAY is in any way replaced or modified. That is why the early church continued to observe the day until persecution by both Jews then papal Rome drove it out of the mainstream. Yet there has ALWAYS been those who have continued to keep the Sabbath according too the commandment.
    I agree with you that Jesus came and rectified the way the Sabbath was being kept. The Pharisees and religious rulers of Jesus’ day had so overwhelmed the Sabbath with so many petty encumbrances they had made it impossible to honour. It had become a legalistic minefield which Jesus roundly decimated. He broke the Sabbath yes…He broke it FREE from the man-made restraints and laws that made the day a burden, rather than the delight it should have been. Jesus, by doing so, “exalted the law and made it honourable”. He was not in any way doing away with the day itself, and not one of the NT writers thought so either.

    I am surprised that you now advocate Sunday. There is even less evidence for the exaltation of Sunday above that of a normal working day than there is the debatable circumstantial evidence for the doing away of the Sabbath. By promoting a change from Sabbath to Sunday; from the 7th day to the 1st., you are submitting yourself to the authority of that institution that first made that change.
    Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

  48. Brendan, you wrote:

    “I didn’t know the Jews began their days from 6 and finished at 6. The Bible says evening and morning constituted one day. For me that’s sunset to sunset.
    I think Nehemiah had the same idea.”

    And what if there is no sunset for 10 days? (There are such places on Earth)
    What hour one Eskimo SDA should start Sabbath day?
    Should he verify his Sabbath clock with Jerusalem time?

  49. Good question. And there are Eskimo Sabbath keepers. And have been so long before adventism entered their land. Perhaps we should ask them?
    There is also the question of those I think who live on the Cook Islands. They straddle the date line; the 7th day is actually the 6th, or something like that. Don’t quite understand the situation, nor how those who live there cope with it.
    Funny thing, the thousands of Jews who are converting to our church seem to have no trouble with it, but I suppose there aren’t many Jews living in Antarctica.

    Hi. All beasts in Daniel were political entities, whether you want to call them nations, kingdoms or empires, they were not individuals. The beast of Revelation 13, and let us give God some credit for being consistent, must also be a nation or kingdom. Note that that particular beast is a composite of all 4 beasts that had preceded it from the 7th chapter of Daniel. Thus it has inherited their attributes and being Satan’s child so to speak,after millenia of development and maturing, is his ultimate creation in counterfeiting the work of God and replacing Christ with a false one. Which is precisely what the Roman church is. A counterfeit system which replaces the prerogatives of Christ’s ministry in the heavenly sanctuary as our Mediator with its own earthly priestly system where the priests, bishops and popes stand in Christ’s place and administer their version of salvation through the sacraments.

    The observing of Sunday as a day of worship and rest in place of the Biblical Sabbath is not YET the mark of the beast. Not until such time as Sunday is officially legislated and enforced through government channels with the support and authoritative affirmation from the beast, Rome, in direct contradistinction to the voluntary keeping of the 7th day according to God’s commandment, then those who CHOOSE to accept the authority of Rome and submit to the legislation after having been clearly and plainly informed of the issues and been given a clear understanding of the consequences, and still decide in favour of the man-made commandment above that of the scriptures, have conscientiously (in their forehead) received and accepted Sunday sacredness, which Rome herself declares quite boastfully that is her own child. Those who accept Sunday as a result of pressure from the church /state union that is enforcing it even though not conscientiously accepting it are doing so out of convenience, for work’s sake or monetary advantage,to avoid penalties or hardship, or to go along with the majority, have received it in their hand, which signifies labour or work.

  50. Brendan,

    Interesting note of history – the Roman Catholic Church did not have its beginnings until the 4th century A.D. To acknowledge otherwise is to deny the truth of history and to accept the rewriting to accommodate the teaching of the harlot from Rome.

    A question to ask, you say that the Sabbath was never done away with. How do you (or more importantly the SDA religion to which you adhere) explain the passages in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, you have a word that is used thusly:

    “When the Sabbath was over, they came on the Sabbath, which is the first day of the week.”

    The word is used again to describe the apostles meeting on the first day of the week in the book of Acts and even in Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians, he uses the exact same word to tell them they were to collect funds for the church at Jerusalem on the first day of the week.

    The Desert Pastor

  51. Hi. Certainly, if such was the case, that the first day of the week whenever mentioned actually was translated from the Greek word which meant the Sabbath day, then that would assuredly be conclusive evidence for the change from the 7th day to the first. Conversely, surely you would agree that if it could not be shown thus, then humility would require an admittance that there is no grounds for such a change?

    Now while I concede that the Greek word used in that phrase is ‘sabbaton’, far more clever linguists than you and I over the last 3 to 400 years decided in their wisdom to render the word in English as ‘the first day of the week.’ That word week being the operative word. Lexographers with more letters after their name than me agree with the translators of every modern Bible I know of, that the original Greek word ‘sabbaton’ can mean both the day and week.
    Here is an excerpt from a study written by an early adventist.
    He is writing on the subject and uses a direct Greek/English transliteration from Matthew as his sample text. I think you will follow what he’s getting at.

    “Opse de sabbaton, te epiphoskouse eis mian sabbaton.”
    “Late but of the Sabbath, it beginning to dawn into the
    first of the week.” sabbaton with short “o” is the
    nominative singular; sabbaton with long “o” is the genitive
    plural] p. 6, Para. 1, [SUNGREEK].
    The reader will see at once that a correct and euphonious
    rendering of this passage is given in the common version:
    “In the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the
    first day of the week.” But the query may arise why
    sabbaton, in the first instance, should be rendered
    “Sabbath,” referring to the seventh day, and the same word,
    in the same form, in the second instance, should be
    rendered “week,” referring to all the seven days. The
    reason is that the word in the last instance is preceded by
    the numeral adjective mian; and the lexicons tell us that
    always when the word sabbaton follows such adjectives, it
    means “week,” the adjective specifying the day of the week,
    as the first, second, etc. Thus it is easily and absolutely
    determined when to render the word sabbaton “Sabbath,” and
    when “week.” Whenever it is preceded by a numeral
    adjective, as it is in all the eight texts (all eight texts in the NT
    that mention the first day of the week and which are used to
    support the Sunday theory) above referred
    to, it means “week.”

  52. Brendan,

    The overwhelming majority of the 613 laws of the Torah are not in the category of being moral directives. Moral laws, wherever they are found in Scripture, are indeed applicable to believers today. They are timeless. Thus, the ritual, civil, and judicial laws of Palestine do not apply to us today. In other words, we are not breaking any moral commandments by not obeying those commandments. Moreover, since many of the ceremonial laws (Fourth Commandment included) were shadows of the Cross, we would be actually denying the reality of Christ if we tried to observe them today. Check out this excellent sermon entitled, “The Lord’s Day: Does it Matter?” by Dr. John MacArthur: (http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/90-225.htm).

    Dennis Fischer

    Want to hear an excellent sermon? Then log unto: (http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/90-225.htm).

  53. brakelite, you wrote:

    “Good question. And there are Eskimo Sabbath keepers. And have been so long before adventism entered their land. Perhaps we should ask them?”

    You are making fun of my questions, but in my opinion, the SDA make Sabbath keeping so important that you should ask Eskimos and give me and other interested in this matter an answer. And the SDA had better base their answer on Bible rather than on feeling good about it.
    And I don’t understand in what way – “thousands of Jews who are converting to your church”, help you feel good about Sabbath keeping. Many Jews come to Christ and have no problem with glorifying God on Sunday. They can be wrong on any or both of these positions.
    So once again, could you answer my questions using the Bible, and not hiding behind any number of Eskimos or Jews.

  54. Actually, I was not making fun of your question, I am serious. There ARE Eskimo Sabbath keepers. They have been so for a very long time, since before any Adventists entered there. However, I do not know how they cope with the sun issue. That’s why I lightheartedly suggested you ask them, after all, I live in NZ, and Alaska is a whole lot closer to you than me.
    Seriously though, I am not so legalistic over the issue that I discount God being gracious enough to inform them Himself how to cope. They are His children after all and as a faithful Father surely He will guide them appropriately. It is before Him they stand or fall, not you or I.
    Regards.

  55. “There ARE Eskimo Sabbath keepers.” – and also Muslims, Buddhists, Animists and maybe even Atheists:)

    “Seriously though, I am not so legalistic over the issue that I discount God being gracious enough to inform them Himself how to cope. They are His children after all and as a faithful Father surely He will guide them appropriately. It is before Him they stand or fall, not you or I.”

    So if God guides some of Eskimos to be keepers of the Lord’s Day, is it ok for you?
    And there are many more of His children after all and as a faithful Father surely He will guide them appropriately why they should look to Christ as their Sabbath, and come together to worship the God on the Lord’s Day (popularly called Sunday).
    Am I wrong?
    In what way (if any)?
    Ps. It is a few thousand miles from my country and my home village to igloo of any Eskimo, but of course it is much nearer than from NZ. But you see, I am not so legalistic over the issue of Saturday Sabbath. For me this is not really so important, how do they keep this Sabbath. But I thought that for you and many SDA people it can be important. “How do they cope with the sun issue” in accordance with the Bible? But maybe you also see this as not so important?
    Regards.

  56. Tomek K, Said: So if God guides some of Eskimos to be keepers of the Lord’s Day, is it ok for you?
    And there are many more of His children after all and as a faithful Father surely He will guide them appropriately why they should look to Christ as their Sabbath, and come together to worship the God on the Lord’s Day (popularly called Sunday).
    Am I wrong?
    I would seriously question whether it was God doing such guiding. Would He contradict His written word? Or would He introduce a doctrine not previously established in His written word? Be honest; anyone without any knowledge of Christianity or the traditions thereof, will, upon reading the Bible for the first time, begin to keep the 7th day holy, because that is the only day so designated by God’s word. He would also enter into Christ’s rest, as per the invitation, but would continue to keep Sabbath because there is no specific instruction in the word that the spiritual rest to be found in Christ replaces the physical observance of Sabbath. And the practice of the apostles, spoken of throughout the book of Acts, above 50 times, follows that pattern, the same pattern laid down by our Lord.

    You also said; “How do they cope with the sun issue” in accordance with the Bible?
    I believe that question ought to be better asked of SUNday keepers. As I am sure you and other readers are very well aware, the roots of Sunday are very firmly embedded in pagan sun worship, roots that go back into time well before the resurrection. From my reading of the Bible and from what I have learned of the nature of God, He was never inclined to ‘Christianise’ pagan practices, concepts, or ideas. Baptising the unholy was never His purpose. Sunday was not ‘born again’ before being designated ‘holy’ by the apostate Roman church. Paganism, along with all its accompanying ideas, philosophies,theories, false gods, rituals, idols, and false worship, came well after the true religion that God was pleased to reveal to His people; a religion that included the idea that the soul was NOT naturally immortal, (Psalm 6:5; 146:4; 1 Kings 2:10; Genesis 2:7; 1:20); a religion that utterly repudiated the occult and sun, star, moon and stock worshipping practices of the surrounding nations (Deut. 18:9-14). I could list many others, all components of a religion that stood in stark contrast to, and predating the paganism and idolatry that surrounded it.
    It was common practice for the Roman church to incorporate pagan practices into her worship and practice in order to make it more acceptable to the masses. Sunday and belief in the immortality of the soul was simply two of many such blending of the holy with the profane, and as far as Sunday is concerned, one that the reformers had not yet been convicted of other than Malencthon.(Luther did not believe in the immortality of man, in any form until AFTER the resurrection, which is what Paul taught.) But God is doing a reformation in the world today and desires that all should come to a knowledge of the truth, and to turn away from the practices and beliefs of Babylon.

  57. “But God is doing a reformation in the world today and desires that all should come to a knowledge of the truth, and to turn away from the practices and beliefs of Babylon.”

    Yes – God is turning many people away from the seventh day cult… well said!

  58. I find it intriguing that one who calls himself “fleebabylon” would presumably continue to observe a day incorporated into the Christian church by spiritual Babylon. By observing that institution established by the authority of Rome, you thereby place yourself in submission to that same authority. (To whomsoever ye yield yourselves as servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey”). Unless of course you don’t think the Roman church is part of Babylon…..
    Whereas the Sabbath keeper doesn’t have that problem. His authority rests solely upon the word of God. Yes, I know that the NT doesn’t have any commandment explicitly for the Sabbath, but so what? How many times do you need God to repeat Himself? Doesn’t the OT apply any more to the Christian? When Paul said to Timothy that all scripture is good for doctrine and teaching in righteousness, what scripture do you think he was meaning? ALL, or just the part that hadn’t been compiled yet?
    In fact Sabbath keepers are the ONLY true observers of sola scriptura. They take as their authority the spoken, and written word of God as revealed in Exodus 20. Jesus reaffirmed that very same law when He said that until heaven and earth pass away not one jot or tittle would pass from that law. And there is not one single text in the entire NT that declares any change, alteration, or expunging of any Ten Commandment law. This is not surprising considering the original commandments were written in stone. And presumably, still are.

  59. “Unless of course you don’t think the Roman church is part of Babylon…”

    I can’t speak for “fleebabylon”, but I can speak for myself. I do NOT think that the RCC is Babylon, and here is why:

    The most common logic of Rome = Babylon thinking is that since Rome was very powerful, it was put into code as Babylon to protect the early church – in spite of the fact that nowhere else is truth encoded to protect those speaking the truth. Further, the alternate theory of encoding to keep the truth away from people makes no sense, seeing as the title is Revelation.

    It is a carryover from those who view the Book of Revelation as allegorical, along with the belief that Israel is not Israel but represents something else – an error that could be forgiven because for a long time, there was no nation of Israel. But there is now a literal nation of Israel, and a literal city of Babylon which is part of Iraq and having a LOT of Western money poured into it, setting a stage for it to become a major player in the Middle East.

    Now, back to the subject – actually, I think this might be an important thing, Revelation, so let’s stay with it. Now, brakelite, you mentioned earlier the rationale for the Mark of the Beast being worshipping on Sunday and talked about how it allegorically is chosen (which is the forehead) and convenient (the hand). The problem here is that it is the MARK of the Beast, a clear reference to a common practice of physically putting a symbol on human skin, through tattooing or branding. Why would Jesus Christ, the one doing the revelating, use an allegory that seems so much like a literal statement that the allegory sounds like something from a sermon sponsored by Budweiser?

    The other problem is your referring to Rome as both the Beast of the Sea and Babylon; but Revelation refers to them as separate entities that use each other, until Babylon is betrayed by the Beast. Further, there is a third entity, the Beast of the Earth (False Prophet) who is the person acting as the propaganda piece.

    Now there is one more point to address, and here is what you said: ” … there is not one single text in the entire NT that declares any change, alteration, or expunging of any Ten Commandment law.” That is not true. Romans 14:5-6 gives explicit approval for not holding one day above another – as well as holding one day above another. Now either what Paul said was not inspired and therefore does not belong in the Bible, or this is a modification of the fourth commandment.

  60. “I find it intriguing that one who calls himself “fleebabylon” would presumably continue to observe a day incorporated into the Christian church by spiritual Babylon.”

    I dont worship on Sunday, I worship in spirit and in truth. I prefer meeting with the saints daily from house to house, ironically with a weekly meeting on saturday usually. Those it was wednesday nights for a long time. I am not bound by a day or by the law, I died to the letter and live by the Spirit. I do not attend a “church service” (find that in the NT) on saturday as sabbatarians do, thus carying on the unbiblical religous tradtions of their harlot mother rome… (only thing that changes is a day). Are you born again, if so please explain how Romans 7 has become a reality in your life. How you died to the letter of the law and now live by the Spirit.

    -Jim

  61. How can anyone keep the ‘spirit’ of the law and not keep the letter?
    The following is how I view Romans 7.
    3 Spiritual laws that govern life.

    “For I delight in

    Law One: ……….The law of God.

    after the inward man”…..(Romans 7:22)

    Paul has nothing but love and respect for God’s law. He considers it ‘holy, just and good’. It is Paul’s earnest and deepest desire to honour that law, and to keep all the commandments,

    ” but I see another law in my members, warring against the law (of God) of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to….” (v23cont.)

    Law Two:………..“The law of sin…

    …which is in my members.”

    Paul delights in obedience, but finds that in the carnal nature resides a law which makes it impossible, the law of sin. Paul confesses his wretchedness and guilt. “Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” he cries.

    “I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin.” (vs 25)

    But if Paul is bound by the law of sin, despite his best intentions to obey the law of God, how then can he overcome? The answer is just 2 verses later. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For…

    Law Three:……….the law of the Spirit of life…

    in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.” Romans 8:1,2.

    Three laws. The law of God which is holy, just, and good.
    The law of sin which binds the carnal man making it impossible to obey the law of God.
    The law of the Spirit of life which through the grace and power of God makes it possible for the reborn child of God to obey the law of God, if he relies on and walks after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

    The law of sin has no power over them who are completely surrendered to Christ. That is why elsewhere Paul can assert that to those who walk in the Spirit they are transformed by the renewing of their minds, and are recreated into the image of the character of Christ. A character that is obedient and a mind (like Christ’s) which delights in the law of God and rejoices that by faith in the power and grace of God he may be obedient to all the commandments.

  62. “How can anyone keep the ‘spirit’ of the law and not keep the letter?”

    The letter kills but the Spirit gives life. If you are truly born again, that is living in victory over sin, having forsaken everything to follow Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit, you will understand. Being religous, even having escaped the religion of babylon as you mentioned leaves us no better then unconverted pharisees. Finding rest in Jesus, and no longer living but having Christ live in you nad rule your heart by faith… that is the work of the Holy Spirit. The law demands 10% of your income and one day a week. Jesus demands everything of you can not be His disciple.

    Are you born again, have you died to the letter of the 10 commandments through the body of Christ? Or are you just a really pious false convert?

    Jim

  63. The letter kills if it is the letter that one is trusting in for his salvation. When I look in the mirror I don’t see someone who is righteous by the letter of the law. I see someone who has been declared righteous by the grace of God. I see someone who, as he submits to God and abides in Him through prayer and studying His word, has been renewed in the spirit of his mind and is being daily transformed by God into the image of Christ. I see someone who underneath the surface lurks more danger for the well being of others, and himself, than he knows how to handle. So every day he surrenders to Christ his Saviour, because he is only too acutely aware that without Him he can do nothing.
    By the grace of God I can overcome sin, and through the grace and power of God I can overcome a number of character defects such as a foul temper and impatience. And through the grace of God I can even learn to love all manner of people, even my enemies, although at the moment, thank God,I don’t think I have any. Through the grace of God I can also learn to forgive, even the closest and most intense of personal hurt, and have. Yet any and/or all of the above counts as nothing toward my attaining heaven, or comes close to Christ’s righteousness. None of the above is good enough. For regardless of how holy or righteous I become through God’s grace, I do now and will always need the imputed righteousness of Christ to cover my nakedness and shame.
    That said, what manner of love is this that God would choose to call me His son. That God would look upon me as if I had never sinned. What grace, what forgiveness is this? Oh how I love Him! What peace there is to them whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered!
    My friend, it is not because I need to impress God that I desire to keep His commandments. Nor is it because I feel I need to do something to attain to righteousness. God loves me regardless, and my righteousness are as filthy rags. No, rather it is because I love Him that I love His law. It is because I love Him that I desire to keep His commandments. It is because I love Him that I seek to obey Him in all things. I love Him because He first loved me. He gave me all the precious promises I need to be a partaker of the divine nature. Obedience is my heartfelt response in gratitude for all He has done for me.
    Yet I can no better keep the Sabbath holy without Him than you can keep the 6th commandment without Him. You claim to keep the spirit of the law. So I take that to mean that by the grace of God you don’t get unnecessarily angry with your brother . If so, that’s great. But how can you accomplish such a feat without keeping the letter of the law regards murder? Both surely are as essential as each other. Like I said in my previous post, the spirit of the law of Christ has freed from the law of sin and death. I am free from all condemnation through the precious blood of Christ. All penalties due me were laid upon My Saviour, praise God. But that does not do away with any ones obligation to obedience.
    Should a judge choose to pay my speeding fine, does that free me to do 180 miles an hour the next day? Of course not, rather on the contrary I would, because of his grace and generosity, be the more careful to obey in future, not wanting to trample upon his gift. So it is with God and His law.

  64. Since the festal, weekly Sabbath cannot be kept everywhere on this planet, is it not true that God’s moral laws or righteous standards can be obeyed everywhere–even on a space station, in an orbiting spacecraft, or in a colony on Mars? Days on this earth have varying lengths in different areas and seasons, days vary according to the arbitrary, man-made International Date Line, and still other areas have months without either light or darkness.

    It is reported that Ellen White told someone that sabbatarians shouldn’t live those areas of the world (smile). For example, the Seventh-day Adventist Church does not publish a sunset calendar for northern Alaska and Norway. However, as mentioned above, moral laws can be and should be obeyed everywhere. To continue observing any of the Old Covenant shadows pointing to the Cross would be actually denying the the reality of Christ, the true Sabbath Rest (Col. 2:16-17; Heb. 4:1-10, Matt. 11:28-30).

    Resting in Him,

    Dennis Fischer
    E-mail: dfministries@gmail.com
    Blog: http://notesfromdennisfischer.blogspot.com

  65. Um, brakelite, the weekly Sabbath was codified AFTER the exodus from Egypt, which took place a LOOOOOOOOOOONG time after sin entered the world. And even if it weren’t, since God knew what was going to happen, it would not be unreasonable to assume that He could set things up before sin entered the world.

  66. I find it interesting that no-one has adequately refuted any of my previous posts, or pointed out any of my arguments and claimed “heresy”, despite the fact that in the beginning of this thread you all claimed my church was a cult, and all its beliefs heretical.
    I have explained fully and in detail why I believe as I do, why I lay claim to being a Christian, and have not hidden my Adventist leanings nor failed to answer any challenges, providing answers which I am convinced reflect precisely the answers that would be given by an official of the church. Yet despite the earlier challenges of “heresy” and “cult”, no-one has yet dared to charge me personally as a “heretic” or non-Christian.
    For that reason, if what I have explained here as being not just my personal position but the official position of the church I belong to, then can I conclude that my church must therefore be a Christian church after all?

    On another matter altogether, the debate over the identity of antichrist and the relation of the RCC regarding that title, I have written extensively on my blog detailed posts that conclusively prove and agree with the reformers views, including Calvin, Luther, Huss, Jerome, Lattimer, Knox, Wesley, and many many others. In this I am in good company. That modern Protestantism no longer holds to that view is symptomatic of the ecumenicalism that is now bringing the harlots daughters back to mother.

  67. brakelite:

    I cannot speak for anyone else, but the reason I have not called you a heretic has nothing to do with your claims of being a Christian and everything to do with the fact that I try to avoid ad hominem attacks. While certainly not a master of “argue the issue, not the person” technique, it is something I attempt to do. But since your last post expressly stated that you stand firmly in the SDA camp, and really you begged the issue, I am forced to conclude that yes, you are a heretic.

    Every issue that has been brought up has been discussed in length, and the fact that you feel that your views were not adequately refuted says more about how strongly you hold them than anything else. They have been discussed, given Scriptural rebuttal, and you have ignored them.

    There are areas where Christians can agree to disagree, such as youth pastors and celebrating Easter, because those are areas that are not absolutely defined. Some hold to the Normative view (whatever is not forbidden is permitted), some hold to the Regulative view (whatever is not commanded is forbidden), and most Christians are somewhere in the middle. The problem here is that the SDA, when it comes to the Sabbath, is beyond even the Regulative and – based on the doctrine of the SDA – makes the Saturday Sabbath a requirement of salvation and declare, as you have, Sunday worship services as taking the Mark of the Beast. I believe the term is, “adding to the cross,” which is forbidden and heresy.

    As for the RRC, the RRC is bad and unchristian, and the fact that people associate the RRC with Christianity makes being a Christian harder, but that alone is not proof of Catholic Church = The Beast (or the Harlot). I have given a lengthy explanation for why I think the RCC is not Babylon a little higher in these comments, so feel free to read that.

  68. brakelite/Brendan:

    You are in a “christian” cult. That is, you claim to believe in Christ, yet in holding to the unbiblical beliefs of the SDA organization, accepting the SDA “interpretation” of the Scriptures, you have chosen to believe the words of man over and above the whole Word of God (the Holy Bible). You have rejected any arguments that run contrary to your cult, and so of course, to you, no one has “adequately refuted” you. All the documentation in the world, and all the verses in the Bible, which run contrary to or at variance with your beliefs, you will not believe. Therefore, because no one has “refuted” your beliefs to your satisfaction, you expressed your rhetorical question: “can I conclude that my church must therefore be a Christian church after all?” You may certainly conclude that if you wish, but your reasoning is merely subjective and as such is poor basis on which to rest any conclusion.

    The SDA doctrines regarding soul sleep, “Investigative Judgment”, and eternal annihilation are teachings which are contrary to the Scriptures, and thus nullify the SDA claim of being a Christian church. Quite frankly, you have been deceived.

  69. Quote:

    The SDA doctrines regarding soul sleep, “Investigative Judgment”, and eternal annihilation are teachings which are contrary to the Scriptures, and thus nullify the SDA claim of being a Christian church. Quite frankly, you have been deceived.

    So according to you the doctrine of the natural immortality of the soul/spirit is essentially Christian, despite the scripture clearly and unequivocally stating that “God alone is immortal” (read 2 Timothy).
    That when Jesus comes to raise the righteous and damn the wicked, He will be doing so without having made a judgement upon these matters?
    And the third essential Christian doctrine you offered being the eternal burning of the wicked in torment despite again the clear teaching of scripture that tells us that the wages of sin is death, and the gift of eternal life is a gift for the righteous. Yet you have made death to mean life, and the gift of eternal life for everyone. And despite the many many texts throughout the old and new testaments that say similar to what Jesus says when He informed us that wide is the way that leads to destruction.

    SDA doctrines are based on the Bible. There is not one of them that doesn’t have a sound Biblical foundation, which truth you would accept if you took the time to study Adventist doctrine and WHY we believe what we do. Because, quite frankly, there is a whole lot of presumption going on in here, one glaring one being that Adventists keep the Sabbath in order to earn their way into heaven. That kind of reasoning and misunderstanding is judgemental and inexcusable.

    All that said, I thank-you for being honest in your opinion of my faith. I suggest you read the last 8 or so chapters of “The Great Controversy” by Ellen White. If that final days scenario does not come to pass, then you may know for sure she was a false prophet. If however those scenes she so vividly describes do come to pass, remembering they were written 120 years ago, then ……

  70. brakelite/Brendan:

    Do you honestly think that one should read Ellen White’s account of the final days, and wait to see if it is true before determining if she is a false or true prophet? A bit late by then, don’t you think? No matter, we already have God’s word to determine that.

    I believe your reference to “God alone is immortal” is found in 1 Tim 6:16 (not 2 Tim. as you claim). But to use that as a proof text to deny eternal punishment is naive and fails to consider the rest of God’s word on the matter. God alone IS immortal in Himself (meaning He cannot die). But the Scriptures are clear He has granted immortality to those He has created.

    “For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.” 1 Cor. 15:53

    Jesus made it clear that the dead are conscious. This is more than evident in the story which He Himself told of Lazarus and the Rich man (Luke 16:19-31). This is not a parable, because Jesus said “There was” and named Lazarus by name (if it weren’t true, Jesus would have been lying, which is sin). After death, both Lazarus, the rich man (and Abraham as well) could feel, see, think, reason, speak, hear, and remember. Though their physical bodies were dead, their souls were very much alert and aware of where they were.

    “Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will HEAR his voice” Jn.5:28

    Likewise, the Scriptures speak, not of annihilation, but of everlasting, eternal, conscious punishment:

    “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the ETERNAL FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels.” Matt.25:41 “These will go away into ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matt.25:46

    “They will suffer the punishment of ETERNAL destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” 2 Thess. 1:9 (the Greek word for “destruction” here is not annihilation, but rather doom and ruin).

    “And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” Mark 9:43-44

    “And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be TORMENTED with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up FOREVER AND EVER, and THEY HAVE NO REST, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” Rev.14:9-11

    “And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matt.25:30

    “And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.” Rev. 19:20

    “And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet ARE also; and they will be TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOREVER AND EVER.” Rev.20:10 (The only difference between the wicked and the Beast and False prophet, is that the latter are thrown there alive, whereas the rest of the wicked go there to be tormented after death. Nevertheless, the torment for all there is forever and ever).

    Not one of these verses refers (in the Greek) to a state of annihilation, nor a ceasing of existence, but rather of an eternal torment. The repeated “eternal” and “everlasting” refer (again in the Greek) to ongoing, never ending. If Hell, and the Lake of Fire, were merely places where the unrighteous/unsaved/wicked were burned up or annihilated, the description would have been such, and eventually the fire would have done its job and end. But such is not the case. Rather, the Scriptures unmistakably describe them as everlasting torment in a fire that never ends (a punishment that continues forever).

    As for your SDA “Investigative Judgment” doctrine that allegedly took place in Heaven, in the 1840’s, consider this:

    “But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,” Heb.10:12

    When Jesus said on the Cross, on earth (not afterward in Heaven) “It is finished”, He meant exactly that. His offering for sin for all mankind, forever, for those already born as well as for all who had not yet been born, was fully and completely accomplished on the Cross at Calvary. Then, He SAT DOWN at the right hand of God (He didn’t continue His atoning or sacrificial work there). The Scriptures are clear that the Great Judgment that will take place will be yet in the future, after His millennial reign on earth when “the books will be opened”.

    Brendan, you are seeing the Scriptures through the glasses of your cult. Put down those glasses, and read God’s word for what it says, reconciling the Old Testament with the New.

  71. Ellen White has well-earned the designation of being a “false prophet” numerous times. It is hard to know where to even begin to point out all her crazy making. For example, it is very embarrassing to point out her many bizarre sexual views, prophetic falsities and failures, conspiracy theories, attacks against biblical Christianity, ad nauseum. Her bookmakers (hired office staff) were kept busy gleaning the writings of others without giving them credit. Due to legal threats for her plagiarism, the “Great Controversy” was revised. Not knowing much about church history, her bookmakers didn’t even steal from the right sources. Thus, the “Great Controversy” contains historical inacccuracies–notably about the Reformation. This is still the primary reason why so many Seventh-day Adventists (from the Reformation lands) do not endorse her nor believe in her.

    Even though official Adventism insists that the writings attributed to Ellen White are “a continuing and authoritative SOURCE of truth,” authentic Protestants strictly adhere to Christ alone, faith alone, grace alone , and Scripture alone. While Seventh-day Adventist apologists continue to use the right theological terms (i. e., grace, faith, sin, etc.), these words mean something entirely different to them than found in biblical Christianity. This makes it easy for them to masquerade in our communities as legitimate Evangelicals or Protestants. It is not always what they say publicly that counts, but rather what they don’t say. They carefully present their teachings to initially appeal to all Christians. Then they continue down the road in their blatant sheep-stealing endeavors. It is fair to say that most Seventh-day Adventists in the pew do not fully understand the policies and teachings of their church. However, they are unashamedly convinced that you are wrong, and they are right about everything.

    A former SDA minister,

    Dennis Fischer
    Blog: notesfromdennisfischer.blogspot.com

  72. I totally agree w/ Brian Of the Hill People says: comments. It is plain in Scripture of Paul writings & the Bible is packed I believe w/it. Also…if a ‘denomination’ held a false prophetess to esteem an/or exhorts false teachings one if they truly love Christ should come out from under that. Why would one want to remain unless they are still ignorant of truth (whether willfully disobedient or mislead only God knows heart). I tried to share truth of 7day Adven false teachings w/ a woman who gradu w/ me from local Bible School (Baltimore School of the Bible) that ehorted truth of this & other Biblical truth too us all, & when I did she was I believe offended. She came out of Catholicism. Perhaps the fellowship ties are dear to her at her local 7th Day Adv. I let it alone…than she sent me a video regarding 7th Day Confer by email & I share some stuff again from several sources incl Apologetic Index…I tried again to share the truth in love (esp since she seemed to open that door by sending me the video on thier conference) & my future emails were blocked after that. I did see her recently she just lost her mom about a mos ago…please keep her in prayer. I’m so very thankful that I do have fellowship w/ those who love Gods truth…the Lord reminded me I believe of that very recently! Sometimes one looses friends if you expose false teaching (like Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, etc). I’ve been challenged myself in regards to doctrine of ‘Election’. I was just listening to Romans & it seems to clearly speak of election…but also b/c God desires none perish I just believe that its more deep & complex than anyone so far has shared w/ me. Perhaps I best grasp at this level: God desires none perish…all would except God intervene by mercy & not because man is deserving, and He saved a remenant, that remnant are the Elect? Any truth grasped is by Gods grace alone & He deserves all glory!

  73. Reply to David W

    No need to wait until all is consummated before making your decision. Have you read “The Late Great Planet Earth”, have you read any of the “Left Behind” series, or any other of the myriad of books out there published in the last 40 years or so, mostly futurist in content, and not already made a decision on their relevance or not? You sound like a reasonably intelligent sort of guy, so can I presume that when reading such works, you were able to compare their theories with the prophecies of the Bible and with current events, and make an intelligent and reasonable decision whether current events are trending in the direction that the authors say they will. My point in challenging you to read the Great Controversy was with the intent to demonstrate that although White was writing from a vantage point of over 100 years ago, yet when compared with current events, the Adventist understanding of eschatology is by far more logical, more Biblical, and what’s more, closer to following the trends of current events than anything else out there. More modern writers of end-time events are almost on top of current events yet because they so tenaciously cling to the futurist paradigm, their books are more accurately described as novels with the view to entertain than any serious Biblical exegesis. And what’s more, the way the world is taking shape politically, socially, and religiously, it is becoming less and less likely that any of the current futurist scenarios are possible.

    You said….I believe your reference to “God alone is immortal” is found in 1 Tim 6:16 (not 2 Tim. as you claim). But to use that as a proof text to deny eternal punishment is naive and fails to consider the rest of God’s word on the matter.

    Actually, it is precisely with the rest of scripture in consideration that I offered that scripture, for it was through using that scripture as a foundation that one can reasonably come to a conclusion that eternal life for the unsaved is both Biblically and philosophically untenable. First, I will answer the texts that you have offered as evidence for your own assertion in support of eternal torment, then I will offer why philosophically that idea is unacceptable.

    David W…..God alone IS immortal in Himself (meaning He cannot die). But the Scriptures are clear He has granted immortality to those He has created.

    While I agree with the first part of this statement, I feel I must qualify the second part. The scriptures are clear God will at some time grant eternal life to someone, but the questions must be answered, when? And to whom? And right there is the crux of the whole issue. Whether one who dies goes directly to his/her reward/punishment, or sleeps until the resurrection. This issue has been debated for centuries (it is hardly the figment of Adventist imagination) by far better educated people than I, but I will do my best to explain what I somewhat reluctantly call ‘soul sleep’. You will find that far from it being the product of some-ones over active imagination, there is actually very sound Biblical reasoning behind the contention that we all sleep or are unconscious until the resurrection.
    The Psalmist said ‘As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness; I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with Thy likeness.” (Psalm 17:15)
    “The living know that they shall die: but the DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING….also their love, and their hatred, and their envy is now perished”. Eccl. 9:5,6
    You admit obviously that the body dies, as we all must do, but here in the above verse the wise man under inspiration of the Holy Spirit speaks of what you might call “the real man”, that is his mind and personality or his soul, and states categorically that the man’s brain, his intellect, dies with the rest of his body, because once dead, he intellectually, KNOWS NOT ANYTHING and emotionally, their love, hatred and envy are also perished.
    “Todays English Version” published by the American Bible Society says “their loves, their hates, their passions, all died with them”.
    When a man dies, “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to the earth; in that very day HIS THOUGHTS PERISH”. Psalm 146:4 No-one can misinterpret what the Holy Spirit is saying here without some fairly astounding exegetical gymnastics .God is here indicating absolutely no mental activity. If the dead man’s thoughts perish, then he is not conscious, in any understanding of the word conscious.
    “Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with all thy might, for there is no….KNOWLEDGE nor WISDOM in the grave wither thou goest” Eccl. 9:10 No comfort or support here for you for the Holy Spirit is clearly saying wither thou goest, not just your body. Again, the dead man is unconscious.
    “The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that that go down into silence” Psalm 115:17 Surely if one were conscious and in heaven, he would be praising God with great fervour and gratitude?
    “Oh Lord…in death there IS NO REMEMBRANCE OF THEE…in the grave who shall give thee thanks?” Psalm 6:5
    “ For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.” Isaiah 38:18,19
    Are we not Protestants? Do we not profess to accept scripture as the foundation for all doctrinal belief rather than man’s interpretation of scripture? Look again at the above texts. No interpretation required, just simply accepting God at His word firmly establishes that death is a form of unconsciousness until the resurrection.
    Jesus confirms this when referencing the resurrection to His disciples. The resurrection became the hope of the early Christian community.
    Look at the following quotes from Jesus Himself.
    Joh 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
    Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he (Lazarus) shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
    Not one hint or suggestion from the Lord that we go to heaven when we die. No, His promise every time was that on the last day, He would return to raise His people to life and they would join with Him where He is. John 14:1-3 is a wonderful confirming promise along precisely the same lines. So far from being an unscriptural heretical doctrine, ‘soul sleep,’ for want of a better expression , is Biblical.

    David W said….Jesus made it clear that the dead are conscious…….

    Where does He do this apart from your interpretive treatment of the quoted parable?

    quote…..This is more than evident in the story which He Himself told of Lazarus and the Rich man (Luke 16:19-31). This is not a parable, because Jesus said “There was” and named Lazarus by name (if it weren’t true, Jesus would have been lying, which is sin). After death, both Lazarus, the rich man (and Abraham as well) could feel, see, think, reason, speak, hear, and remember. Though their physical bodies were dead, their souls were very much alert and aware of where they were.

    Evidently you see Jesus’ portrayal of the scenes of Lazarus and the rich man as being a literal event. If so, this would be the one and only occasion that Jesus spoke in such a way to a crowd of people; not only so, but contradicts the following: Matt. 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:…. 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
    The story speaks nothing of immortal souls having left the dead body behind. Physical body parts are mentioned; the rich man had eyes and a tongue, presumably Lazarus had a finger. Tell me. How much water do you think a spirit finger could apply to a spirit tongue? If this story was literal, then dead people do not soar away to their reward as disembodied spirits or souls, but rather with all their physical attributes intact. A little digging here and there would quickly disprove this idea. This anomaly in the story alone leads the honest reader to conclude that we are talking of a fictional parable, not a real life (or death) story.
    Again, if this were a literal account, then hell must be a suburb of heaven, so close as to enable parties in either camp to freely converse with one another. Please. Those purportedly suffering in hell and being just over the fence as it were and within hearing of everyone in heaven with their incessant screams and cries of agony along with their cursing of God etc? Such a scenario is unthinkable. How could heaven be heaven in such a case? A literal understanding of this story is absurd.
    On top of all that, how could Abraham’s bosom (another body part) be large enough to accommodate Lazarus? Let alone all the saved from all ages? The narrative is for the benefit of Jewish listeners because Abraham is the most important figure in the drama. It is not an exposition for Christian doctrine and theology. The lesson carries on from the previous parable about the unjust steward. The point of the lesson was “you cannot serve both God and mammon”. The Pharisees scoffed at Him, so He met them on their own ground by relating a story based on their own belief which they could not mock. Jesus, being the Master teacher, used their own belief against them, proving their covetousness.
    In Jesus day riches were considered a sign of God’s favour. The richer one was, according to the belief at that time, the more secure you were in your future eternal state. (See Matt. 19:23-25) The parable of the rich man and Lazarus was designed to reverse the current thinking and bring light and truth to their covetous hearts. It was not intended as a literal theological treatise on the state of the dead.
    Josephus speaks of the prevailing belief of that time…he wrote that Hades was a “subterraneous region” of “perpetual darkness” where the lost are dragged “into the neighbourhood of hell itself”, but the saved are guided into a “region of light where the countenances of the fathers…always smile upon them…the place we call the bosom of Abraham” Though the wicked can “see the place of the saved…a chaos deep and large is fixed between them” so that no one can “if he were bold enough to attempt it, pass over it”. A consultation therefore of Josephus writings reveal the tradition that current Judaism held regards the state of the dead, echoing precisely the parable that Jesus used to teach them their own inconsistency. In order to teach important truths Jesus framed His parables around the preconceived opinions of His hearers, but this does not mean He was agreeing with that opinion, nor endorsing false doctrine. For example, Jesus was not condoning the actions or lifestyle of the unjust steward in the previous parable.

    David quotes…..“Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will HEAR his voice” Jn.5:28

    Great verse you have quoted here. What a wonderful promise…death does not have the final say…Jesus does. And where are those ones when they hear His voice? In heaven? Purgatory? No, they are in their graves! Just like Lazarus was in his grave or tomb when he heard the voice of Jesus crying “Come forth!” (Note, not come down, or up, but come forth)

    Quote…..Likewise, the Scriptures speak, not of annihilation, but of everlasting, eternal, conscious punishment:
    “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the ETERNAL FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels.” Matt.25:41 “These will go away into ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matt.25:46
    “They will suffer the punishment of ETERNAL destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” 2 Thess. 1:9 (the Greek word for “destruction” here is not annihilation, but rather doom and ruin).
    “And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” Mark 9:43-44
    “And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be TORMENTED with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up FOREVER AND EVER, and THEY HAVE NO REST, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” Rev.14:9-11
    “And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matt.25:30
    “And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.” Rev. 19:20
    “And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet ARE also; and they will be TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOREVER AND EVER.” Rev.20:10 (The only difference between the wicked and the Beast and False prophet, is that the latter are thrown there alive, whereas the rest of the wicked go there to be tormented after death. Nevertheless, the torment for all there is forever and ever).
    Not one of these verses refers (in the Greek) to a state of annihilation, nor a ceasing of existence, but rather of an eternal torment. The repeated “eternal” and “everlasting” refer (again in the Greek) to ongoing, never ending.

    Read Jude 7. Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning today even though they were set forth as examples suffering “eternal fire”? Peter identifies the eternal fire of Jude with annihilation when he said “turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly. Interestingly Jesus said that” the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:29). And Jeremiah agrees with this story and line of reasoning when he said “Sodom was overthrown in a moment”! So the eternal fire that destroyed Sodom did so in one day!!! Therefore it is to be concluded that the eternal fire is eternal in the result of what it has accomplished.
    All the following texts describe not an ongoing process of anything, but a final result.
    Heb. 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation (not endless saving) unto all them that obey him;
    6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. (not endless judging)
    9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. (not endless redeeming)
    2 Thess. 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction (not endless destroying) from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    Matt. 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment (not endless punishing) but the righteous into life eternal.
    I have no argument with you regards the duration of the punishment of the wicked. It is indeed eternal. The question my friend is what does that punishment consist of? If the punishment for the wicked is torment, then certainly, the wicked must endure exactly that. If however, the punishment for the wicked is death, then that death will be everlasting, eternal, and without hope of resurrection. And what does the Bible say?
    The wages of sin is death!

    David said…..If Hell, and the Lake of Fire, were merely places where the unrighteous/unsaved/wicked were burned up or annihilated, the description would have been such, and eventually the fire would have done its job and end. But such is not the case. Rather, the Scriptures unmistakably describe them as everlasting torment in a fire that never ends (a punishment that continues forever).

    Au contraire….apart from the above verses which do precisely that, there is the following…
    Malachi 4: 1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch……3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
    You might also like to read John 15:1-6.

    Finally David said….As for your SDA “Investigative Judgment” doctrine that allegedly took place in Heaven, in the 1840′s, consider this:
    “But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,” Heb.10:12
    When Jesus said on the Cross, on earth (not afterward in Heaven) “It is finished”, He meant exactly that. His offering for sin for all mankind, forever, for those already born as well as for all who had not yet been born, was fully and completely accomplished on the Cross at Calvary. Then, He SAT DOWN at the right hand of God (He didn’t continue His atoning or sacrificial work there). The Scriptures are clear that the Great Judgment that will take place will be yet in the future, after His millennial reign on earth when “the books will be opened”.

    I have answered this in a former post, but would add this.
    If as you say, and I don’t disagree, that Jesus’ sacrifice on Calvary was a full and complete propitiation for our sin, and again, according to you the wages of sin is eternal torment, (with which I disagree) then Jesus most assuredly did not pay the full price for our sin else He would still be suffering, and would be so forever without end. But the thing is, He did indeed pay the full price, not eternal torment, but death.
    And as far as the judgment goes, when Jesus comes He has His reward with Him to give every man according as his works shall be. (Rev. 22:12) Surely, some form of judgment must have been made in heaven prior to this event in order to ascertain what reward goes to who?
    Also, in the form of a parable Jesus said that when He comes He will divide the sheep from the goats. Same thing. Some form of judgment must be made prior to the second coming in order to decide who lives and who dies. Read Revelation 14 from verse 12 on. How do the angels know who are destined to wrath and who must be destroyed if no judgment has been made? Besides all this, according to popular belief, as we have been debating, everyone who has ever lived are even now inm heaven or hell. When were they judged? Or are they resurrected from hell and then told “we have made a decision and you are going to hell”. Huh?
    Finally, philosophically I cannot endorse eternal torment for many reasons, but for now I would like to mention just 2.
    If eternal torment is the just punishment for sin, then God’s justice can never, I repeat never, be satisfied. Is that your picture of God? A God whose justice can never be fully satisfied? Sounds far more like a pagan god demanding human sacrifice than a gracious merciful loving Creator.
    And secondly, I would ask you this question. If eternal torment is true, and the wicked of past ages are there now, where is the justice in their torment being of so much longer duration that someone like, say, Pol Pot, Hitler, or Stalin, or some other modern mass killer? Certainly there would be supposedly some having been there for several thousand years and who never, not in the slightest, approached the evil of these men? Where is the justice in that? Even men created in the image of God now marred and tainted with sin know that such unsound justice demands an answer.

  74. Sad to see so many negative comments on other churches, There are a good many God fearing people in these so called cults who will see heaven. I became a Seventh-day Adventist because of the Bible based teachings are much more clearer than the Catholic church I grew up in and the many popular churches around me. There are many wonderful christians in my church who dont lift their lips to villifying others. I have yet to see a church which holds to the NT ideal as the SDA’a “the Law and the Testimony” (Isaiah 8:20) This church gave the Christian world the ongoing Reformation truths lost since the apostasty ie Sabbath, State of the dead, Sanctuary, and the Health message – Prove them from the Bible where they are wrong!

    “The Church in the wilderness and not the proud hierarchy in the worlds great capital was the true church of Christ, a gaurdian of the treasures of truth which God gave to his people to be given to the world E.G White.

    Patrick Dillon
    Edinburgh
    Scotland

  75. From Rome to the SDA cult, huh Patrick? Kind of like a man that fled a lion only to have a bear meet him? How is pretending to keep the sabbath working out for you anyway?

    “as if a man fled from a lion, and a bear met him, or went into the house and leaned his hand against the wall, and a serpent bit him. Is not the day of the LORD darkness, and not light, and gloom with no brightness in it? “I hate, I despise your feasts, and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies”. – God [Amos 5:19-21]

    -Jim

  76. Whatever those who condemn seventh day Sabbath keepers say, let it be known that in the new heaven and earth we will be keeping the seventh day (Isaiah 66). From Eden to Eden! Be carefull what you say against Gods word, He created the Sabbath as a sign between Him and His people. You will have to meet these words in the Judgement? I pray that God will forgive your ignorance, neither the Sunday kept by Catholic or apostate Protestant churches or Muslim Friday will be known in the earth made new. It seems nothing we can say will convince you that the seventh day (Saturday) is the true Sabbath, I dont take offence though for if you dont believe the Bible you wont be convinced by me either, Therefore be left to your own delusions, may God one day open your eyes

    God Bless
    Patrick

  77. Patrick,

    Are you telling us that the apostle John was in grave error when he declared that there will be no need for the sun or the moon in the Holy City? Also, the apostle John saw NO temple in the city (Rev. 21:22-25) whereas Ellen White insisted she saw the temple in heaven. Since there will be no night in heaven (Rev. 22:4), there obviously can be no weekly Sabbath there because it is entirely based upon sunsets on two days every week; specifically, Fridays and Saturdays.

    The only Sabbath that was mandated for human beings was the Jewish Sabbath. The seventh day of creation was unending or perpetual (notice the absence of the phrase “there was evening and there was morning” for the seventh day). Without the Fall, the Edenic Sabbath would have been perpetual. Moreover, since it was perpetual or unending in duration, God did not command that Adam and Eve observe any special day in Eden.

    Furthermore, are you telling us that the Jewish New Moon celebration will be observed in heaven as well since it is mentioned in Isaiah 66:23? Isaiah is simply using metaphors, that the Israelites understood, to describe stipulated times of worship heaven. Both the festal New Moon and weekly Sabbath were shadows pointing to our Lord Jesus Christ. We certainly will not observe “shadows” in heaven when we already have the reality of Jesus, the true Sabbath Rest (Matt.11:28-30; Col. 2:16-17; Heb. 4:9). Notice that the writer of Hebrews uses the Greek term “sabbatismos” to describe our rest in Christ. This is the only passage using “sabbatismos” in the entire Bible. Indeed, Koine Greek was a very precise language that averts any misunderstanding on many NTpassages.

    Those who still insist upon observing any shadow pointing to cross are actually diminishing the honor and glory due to Jesus Christ. When Jesus died, the Sabbath died. Christ-followers no longer gaze intently upon the fading shadows of the SUN for two days out of every week, but instead they look to God–the Son (the reality of all OT shadows). By the way, it is important to note that Seventh-day Adventists do not observe the Bible Sabbath with its weekly showbread and extra sacrificing requirements. In short, it is IMPOSSIBLE to observe the weekly, festal Sabbath without the Levitical system being fully in place.

    A former SDA minister,

    Dennis Fischer
    Blog: http://notesfromdennisfischer.blogspot.com

  78. Dear Mr Fischer
    That was a good try, you have knowledge aplenty and sophistry also, however you still fall short and are unable to convince the humble who rely on a personal relationship with our Lord Jesus and a plain “Thus saith the Lord”. There are to many versus in the Bible telling us Gods law is eternal. the 10 commandment law is the one that governs the universe not just earth! indeed the longest Psalm in the Bible 119, is devoted entirely to the “Perfect law of liberty” Jesus Himself said “Heaven and earth may pass away but one jot or tittle will by no means pass from the law” (Matthew 5:17,18)

    As for the seasons does not (Genesis 1:14 – 18) not say that the sun and stars were given us for “Seasons” to discern time? and this before the fall? Also you mentioned that the Sabbath God created was the “Jewish Sabbath” – Strange? no one ever heard of a Jew or an Isrealite from Adam down to Moses, and since we are all descended from Adam and Eve we all have a common ancestor here. Remember “Whosoever Believes in Him” (John 3:16) is not exclusive to the Jews only but salvation is open to all men and races!

    It is true the old law of sacrifices and shadows was annuled at the cross hence the temple curtain being “torn in two” when Jesus died. These were to point forward to the perfect sacrifice “the lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world”which was Jesus at Calvary.

    However to even suggest that any including the Sabbath law of the 10 commandments was or is annulled is outright apostasy! How could even our earthly governments corrupt as they often are operate without a replica of even the last 6 commandments? the result would be chaos which happens during revolutions, civil war, invasions etc: How much more then is the Christian obliged to their Creator to keep his Holy day (Isaiah 58:13). You seem to have no problem with the first three.

    One final question – which day then will we gather in the new heaven and earth when this world is over to worship our God? is it the Sunday of Baal, Molech, Ashtoreth, Paganism and the Babylonic religeons, Apostate Sunday Christianity, or maybe the Jewish seventh day without Jesus? or even the Friday of the Quran? No! God said Remember the Sabbath. not forget it! the seventh day of the fourth commandment which Jesus Himself said was “Lord of the Sabbath”
    (Mark 2:28) are you guys going to tell Jesus He was wrong?

    God Bless
    Patrick
    Patrick

    Also this 6000 year controversy on earth between Christ and satan which will end with 1000 years in heaven – The jugdement. from there we will descend back to the earth made new and resume our Eden home

  79. Patrick said: “There are to many versus in the Bible telling us Gods law is eternal. the 10 commandment law is the one that governs the universe not just earth!”

    There are also verses telling us that true believers are dead to the letter and born of the Spirit:

    Rom 7:4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.

    Is Paul talking about the 10 commandments here? Absolutely…

    Rom 7:7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

    Keeping one day a week and giving 10% of your income is not even the old covenant. That is so far from the kingdom of God. You cannot be Christs disciple unless you forsake everything (your very life) and die to yourself. Then your life will be hidden with Christ. He will be your life. You will worship the Lord in Spirit and in truth (not on days and at places). The Lord isn’t interested in you giving him one day a week, it is all or nothing. Count the cost of forsaking everything (even your prideful religious habits) then pick up your cross and follow Christ.

    John 4:23-24 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth

    All you admit when you boast of your Saturday (saturns day) instead of Christ is that you don’t really give the Lord the other six days.

    Luke 9:23 And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

    So next Saturday, when you are sitting around and pretending to keep the Sabbath, remember that you do very well in the eyes of some religious men but fall far short in the eyes of God. Jesus did not say if anyone would come after me – let him give up one day a week and follow me.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
    Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
    Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
    Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

    -Jim

  80. “Now, although I believe that the Sabbath is simply a day to be distinguished from the rest, where you stop from your daily doings, like work, sports, daily mundane things. The Sabbath is there so we can make time for God from our daily things. Now, we are supposed to worship Him EVERY DAY, and make time for Him everyday, but those days are not truly devoted to God, because we have work to do, we have things to do at home. So our days are filled with other things that take the time that we are supposed to be worshipping God. So the Sabbath is made for us to have a day that is truly devoted to Him and Him alone, and the Sabbath is that day.”

    Born again children of God worship the Lord in Spirit and in Truth. What I am reading here is that since this laodecian age refuses the cross in their lives and lives for self and pleasure – we’d better at least give God one day. The argument is almost like laodecia verses laodecia PLUS sabbath keeping.

    What about being dead with Christ – being consumed and constrained by Him and living for Him everyday – no longer living for self and the temporal but for our king and his kingdom. Although we have not obtained this, we should forget those things that are behind and push forward to this high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Not rest in “I will give God one “real” day a week” stuff. I do not write this to condemn anyone, but that should not be our goal even if it is where we are at now in our walk.

    I am not writing this to come against those who keep a day onto the Lord either (for such do not push it as law on others – pushing it as law proves they do not keep the day onto the Lord but onto Moses). I am writing to the law crowd who would tell those dead with Christ and accepted in the beloved that they have to go back to law. Either Saturday or Sunday – forcing a day is dead wrong. Keeping it for the Lord is great from the right motive – just as treating every day the same for the Lord is great too if for the right motive.

    -Jim

  81. To go back to what someone said “but those days are not TRULY devoted to God”

    Then the answer is not to go back to the law but to crucify your self and flesh by the grace of God (for only those who God calls and enables can do this) so that every day is for Him. If we go to work it should be for the glory of God. To win souls, to be a light shining in darkness. To do a good job for our employers and make your witness oif Christ attractive in every way. Is God not TRULY worth every day – just one day a week? I am sorry if I am reading this wrong, but I don’t think I am.

    -Jim

  82. I am going to say this out of love – but there is something terribly wrong this attitude “I know I am suppose to worship the Lord every day – but come on now – lets be real… how about if we just keep the sabbath”.

    Col 3:17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

    This is a life and death issue for some on this thread. Jesus Christ is everything. He is your life IF you are born again of Gods will and not the will of man. Have that mind brethren – whether you keep one special day onto the Lord or not.

    Rom 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

    In Christ -Jim

  83. “I am going to say this out of love” Say’s Jim or “fleebabylon”
    What is God going to do with you?
    You constantly trap yourelf with God’s own words from the Bible itself? I will not go into a long discourse with you, however if you love Jesus as much as you say! then why not follow what He say’s about his Law:
    Didn’t Jesus Himself say “If you love me keep my commandments” (John 14:15)

    Why “Strain at a gnat and swallow a camel”? Jesus said also. It is God you are fighting here not people!

    In Christ
    Patrick

  84. Patrick said:
    “What is God going to do with you?
    You constantly trap yourelf with God’s own words from the Bible itself? I will not go into a long discourse with you,”

    Jim says:
    The reason you cant go into a long discourse is because there is not a cut-and-paste rebuttle you can access from your cult hand book. Since it appears you lack basic hermeneutics skills and the help of the Holy Spirit to understand the word of God I can see why you dont want to go into a long discourse.

    Patrick said:
    “however if you love Jesus as much as you say! then why not follow what He say’s about his Law:
    Didn’t Jesus Himself say “If you love me keep my commandments” (John 14:15) ”

    Jim says:
    You do greatly error for you know not the scripture nor the power of God. John, the beloved apostle NEVER once records or associates Christs commandments with the dead letter of the law. Quite the opposite instead in both the Gospel and the espitles.

    Jesus says:
    Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
    Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
    Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
    Joh 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
    Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
    Joh 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

    Jim says:
    This is the same thing that Paul says in Romans 7 – dead to the law through the body of Christ that we might bring forthe fruit to God though walking in the Spirit:

    Paul says:
    Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.

    John says:
    1Jn 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
    1Jn 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
    1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
    1Jn 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
    1Jn 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

    1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
    1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

    1Jn 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

    Jim says:
    You are condemned under the law. There is no need to speculate as to what God will do to you (it will involve eternal conscience torment with wicked ellen white in the lake of fire). Repent and believe the Gospel. -Jim
    __________________________________________________________________________________

    John the belove apostle says:
    1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
    1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

    Patrick the cult member says:
    And this is his commandment, that we pretend to keep the sabbath.
    And hereby we know that he abides in us, by pretending to keep the sabbath.

  85. Dear “Flee Babylon”

    It always baffles me to hear a man boast of his love for God and his knowledge of the Bible and fight tooth and nail against the least requirements and commandments! your last write in trapped yourself once again, instead of cutting and pasting from my “cult handbook” The NT. I will cut and paste from your above write in! which is also the NT.

    John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

    As for the annulment of the law because we are saved by faith through grace didn’t Paul say in Romans 3:31- “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law”. What part of this plain English do you have difficulty with?

    The very day in which the Lord would like a relationship with you, you ignore and set up your own day and on your own terms! As for keeping a Sabbath every day as you boast, you must be a poor man and a lazy one at that? how do you find time to work, pay bills, contribute to society etc as well as spending hours on the internet every day trying in vain to discredit the Seventh-day Adventist church?

    To end just in case you just might turn to the epistles of John 1, 2 and 3 you will find they are saturated with a love for God and keeping His commandments! here is my favorite.

    1st John 2:3 “Hereby we know that we know Him if we keep His commandments” – The next verse may be too hard for you to bear!

    May the good Lord richly bless you
    Patrick

  86. Having read through the discussion I find that most of the commentators have no understanding of the Law of God and His saving grace. The Law shows us how wretched in sin- disobedience, we are, His grace provides righteousness. ( Are we to believe that before Christ there was no grace? Relive the fall of man in Eden, the tower of Babel, the deluge of Noah, the Israeli wilderness apostasy, Lot and his family. Honestly was this not grace given to man? Grace can not be divorced from each other. God is eternal so are His qualities/attributes (Malachi 3:6,). The old testament is full of the stories of grace ( Gen. 6:8, Exo. 33:16; 34:9, Psa. 84:11).
    What is Law? And what is Grace?
    Let those who quote scripture to justify their theories leave no doubt in the explanation of the Word, can Colossians 2: 16 be quoted right and it will be sen that it has no reference to the “Sabbath” but “sabbath days”. The historical setting of the Pauline scriptures is “Gentile oriented”, written to a people who did not keep the Jewish sabbath. These should not be brought into the Sabbath issue.
    The whole Word is law- from the very first verse in Genesis to the last in Revelation, disbelieve creation in the first verse of Genesis and you would have sinned (Deut. 29:29, The law is Jesus Christ (John 1:1; 8:37-38; 14:6, Psa. 119:142) and every Word He speaks must be obeyed and grace is what he provides to those who have disobeyed Him and salvation is only bestowed upon repentance and living in His grace- obedience.
    With respect to the “end time prophets” seek guidance from Jesus and He will help you by His Spirit to see whether are of God or not. Remember that even our Savior Jesus was rated among magicians. Our safety is not in what people are saying for only Jesus alone is infallible.
    The so called exposures are not good enough, bring forth real matters of faith and not trivialities of sanctified minds.
    Christ says,”If ye love me, keep my commandments”. (John 14:15). How do you expect a saved person to live? Is it a life of obedience the word of the Savior? If yes which word? Or must a saved person live like the Devil? A life of disobedience under the pretext of living in grace, if so then Satan must have a place in the New Heavens.
    If the law has no bearing on our salvation, what is Paul implying in Romans 2:13; 3:21, 31; 7:1; 8:4?

  87. Morgan quote
    If the law has no bearing on our salvation, what is Paul implying in Romans 2:13; 3:21, 31; 7:1; 8:4?
    end quote

    If you’re going to quote verses out of context , then allow me to quote one out of context.

    Romans 3:28
    Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    Oops , I guess its not out of context after all.!
    Ive read through this entire thread, and what I see continually expressed by the sabbatarians is that they confess that they are saved by grace ……………and by keeping the 4th commandment. So which is it , are you [adventists] saved by the finished work of Christ on the cross[ which not so incidently is contrary to your " investigitive judgement" doctrine] , or are you saved by your own works and self righteousness. Of course , with such a twisted view of salvation such as is expressed in this quote from the above post , Adventists are a confused lot.

    quote
    every Word He speaks must be obeyed and grace is what he provides to those who have disobeyed Him and salvation is only bestowed upon repentance and living in His grace-
    obedience.
    end quote

    “salvation is only bestowed upon repentance and living in his grace- obedience” , is yet another example of confusing grace with works. Yes , we must believe that Jesus died for our sin , and turn away from that sin [repent] , but the declaration of our righteousness was effected at the cross, our reconciliation [ the elect] to God through the sacrifice of the cross , was at the cross[Romans 5:10-11]. Therefore being justified [ by faith] and declared righteous by the imputed righteousness of Christ , we can , as the writer of Hebrews 10 :22 says

    Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith , having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience , and our bodies washed with pure water.

    Our [my] assurance of salvation is founded only in the work of Christ , and nothing of what I might achieve as ” good works” , and to be honest , I’m sick of hearing adventists looking down their long judgemental noses and having the audacity to say that we must obey the 4th commandment.Show me that you have a biblical grasp of the gospel before you preach to me how i should worship.

  88. @Megan

    Gal. 3:23-25: “But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor (to lead us) to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. “NO MORE (Old Testament) LAW. V. 26 “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.”

    Everything in the New Testament covenant is by faith, not law.
    Rom.11:6 “And if by grace then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is by works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.” It is either one or the other it can’t be both, these are two different covenants. If you choose to be under one then you are removed from the other.
    Rom. 6:14-15 “For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace.”

    Megan,,the New Testament is the New Covenant okay and the New Covenant is the one we LIVE under. The New covenant is based on the Heart-Heb. 8:10- and not on performance.
    “The Law was given through Moses. Grace and Truth came through Jesus Christ.”-John 1:17 Hebrews 8:6-12 “10 “This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. ==GAL. 4:21-31. Luke 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. We are not under law, we are under GRACE. Jesus said, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.” Mt. 26:39.
    What was this CUP? The cup was all the suffering of the wrath of God that Jesus paid the price for on our behalf. The Sinless Son of God paid for ALL our sins AT THE CROSS. The New Covenant is the fulfilled- paid in full with the blood of Jesus that FOREVER takes away our sins. Jesus said, “It is FINISHED”=Paid in FULL. Jesus paid for ALL our sins. How many sins did Jesus pay for? ALL-Heb. 7:27 “He sacrificed for their sins ONCE for ALL.”Christ is the End of the law. We are no longer UNDER the Law we are UNDER GRACE. Why? Because Jesus fulfilled the Law and HE lived UNDER the Law FOR US and HE satisfied God the Father in every way FOR US. Christ is the END of the LAW so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. -Romans 10:4.Gal. 3:24 “The LAW was Put in Charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by Faith”. Jesus did all the WORK FOR us required by God. –John 6:28 “What must we do to do the works God requires? 29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent. Jn.6:40 “For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

    There is only ONE RIGHTEOUSNESS that GOD accepts and that is the spotless sinless Son of God. ALL our righteousness even after we are saved are filthy rags to God..

    “For it is by GRACE you HAVE BEEN SAVED through faith and that is NOT of yourselves it is a free GIFT not by works so that no man can boast. For we are a workmanship created IN CHRIST JESUS to do good works”..

    The difference is this– We who are already saved and forever God’s children work FROM grace not FOR God’s grace. We work out of a heart that has been changed by God solely because of his MERCY.. —

    ,,”he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,””-Titus 3:5.

    it’s all based on a heart that is forgiven, washed by the blood of Jesus and desires to please God all because of the ONLY Righteousness God accepts—Jesus. ONLY Jesus fulfilled the law perfectly for us.

    We fall in love with Jesus when he saved us, and are obedient to him because of his righteousness is imputed to our account. We WANT to please God. A heart that has been changed by God’s grace doesn’t fear that he /she has to keep the law because we are already forgiven. We worship God because he’s good to us not because he’s God, or powerful but because he’s good to us. God is so gracious. He’s the ultimate standard of graciousness—a stranger or person of lesser status is made to feel thoroughly valued, welcomed, and at ease. God does that for me like no one does. Though I’m the stranger, the dirty one, the undeserving one filthy, dirty rotten he makes me thoroughly welcomed, at ease in his presence and loved and thoroughly VALUED –HE PROVED THAT VALUE IN THE PRICE HE PAID TO HAVE ME IN CHRIST AT THE CROSS. THAT’S WHAT KEEPS ME COMING BACK TO THE LORD—NOT DUTY, NOT CODE OF ETHICS, NOT CHURCH ATTENDANCE, nor reading my bible. HE LOVES ME with his Unfailing love and he proved that by giving me his SON -I do these things because of HIs love for me and I WANT to please him…. —

    Sorry so long

  89. I’m an SDA and I believe people from all religions will be saved. It is not for us to decide who is right and who is wrong that is Gods decision. We should focus on servinghim instead of sitting around talking about other peoples religions and passing judgment or calling them cults. Lets not forget he died for all of us.

  90. Carrie said “I’m an SDA and I believe people from all religions will be saved. It is not for us to decide who is right and who is wrong that is Gods decision. We should focus on servinghim instead of sitting around talking about other peoples religions and passing judgment or calling them cults. Lets not forget he died for all of us.”

    Carrie:

    1) SDA is a cult
    2) Jesus said few would be saved
    3) There are many false christs and many false gospels
    4) The word of God says to expose the fruitless works of darkness and doctrines of demons (that sums up SDA cult in a nutshell)
    5) We are commanded to judge false religions that claim the name of Jesus
    6) You should read the Bible more if you claim to be a christian, I do not say that to slander you but in all seriousness.

    Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    2Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

    Titus 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.

    AND NOTHING SPEAKS GREATER AGAINST THE STRANGE SEXUAL, DIETARY, OT SABBATH LAWS, AND FALSE PROPHESIES OF THE SDA CULT THAN THIS:

    Collosians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

  91. Of all religious people that I have been personally acquainted with, Seventh-day Adventists are the most judgmental about other believers. Collectively, my wife and I have more than 100 years of active experience in Adventism. Believe me, one can learn a lot about any religious organization during such a lengthy time span. For example, their primary or fundamental eschatological view incorporates Catholicism as the “beast” power (their Pope labeled as 666), and their prophetess, Ellen G. White, referred to all Protestant churches as “synagogues of Satan.” Since Seventh-day Adventists sense that they are a cult (in light of biblical Christianity), they publicly want the uninformed to believe that they don’t believe in possessing heaven’s exclusive franchise.

    Like the LDS, JWs, Christadelphians, and others, Seventh-day Adventists consider themselves as the “remnant” or latter-day (last-day) church. Ironically, however, Ellen White never addressed nor predicted the current threat from Islam. She was too busy castigating Catholics and Protestants to be concerned about anything else. By the way, Seventh-day Adventists cannot be considered as authentic Protestants since they embrace the extra-biblical authority and writings attributed to Ellen White, their co-founder, prophetess, messenger, visionary, and infallible interpreter of Scripture.

    The Apostle Paul was very emphatic (Gal. 1:8-9) about getting the Gospel right. Moreover, In Titus 1 and 2, we learn that teaching “sound doctrine” is a biblical commandment. Dudley M. Canright, Adventism’s most notable heretic, wisely stated: “To criticize, expose, and condemn others is not a pleasant task, but when religious teachers enthrone error, and mislead honest people, silence would be unkind and censurable.” This is why the inspired writers of the New Testament devoted so much time and effort to dispel and expose numerous heresies. Indeed, the greatest fortress against any heresy is to be thoroughly grounded in Scripture.

    In His power and for His glory,

    Dennis Fischer
    Blog: http://notesfromdennisfischer.blogspot.com

  92. From an outside perspective it would appear to me that the SDA church has some of their practices correct (like Sabbath day keeping) but their specific founding doctrines are completely false (as easily demonstrated in the above video). So, it is not a matter of choosing between Sunday worship Christianity and Saturday worship SDA. It appears clear to me that both views are with error.

    The answer lies within the actual scripture, not within any visions of modern man (or woman). We shall keep the Sabbath as it was intended. We shall not predict when the messiah will return. It is pretty simple.

    Don’t worship symbols, teachers, preachers, priests, or ‘things’. Don’t fall at the cross and worship it. Don’t hang up a fake picture of Jesus that some author has imagined and drawn. You don’t need these things. There are many false prophets. Many churches are corrupt and fallen and have nothing to do with our God and our Savior.

  93. Luwo, our sabbath rest is now found in Jesus Christ. We no longer are bound by the strictures of the old covenant as we are now under a new and everlasting covenant established by our Saviour. Romans 14 makes it clear that under the new covenant, we are free to worship on whatever day we choose. Further, while Israel was commanded to worship on one day a week to rest from their labours, the worship of the true New Testament believer is actually to be reflected every single day of the week!

  94. Hello All:

    I am late in joining the conversation. However, I implore you to consider my point.

    Sabbatarians keep the sabbath based on a Catholic Calendation, the Gregorian Calendar. It is based on a “solar” calendar. A study of ancient calendars will reveal that there were numerous changes in the calendar since ancient times. Most recently after Christ death there was a pre-julian calendar (with a eight day week) and also there was a julian calendar followed by a gregorian calendar. While we say that the chronological order of the day has not been changed there is more proof in history which attest to changes over the years.

    Furthermore, the jews had their own calendar which was a lunar solar calendar. Every new moon was the beginning of a new month. As a matter of fact the lunar solar calendar is still used to some extent by them and by the chinese.

    If the Roman Catholic Church instituted sunday as the mark of their authority my question is why use their calendar which has its pagan names and days that are dedicated to every thing to calculate time. If you want to keep the sabbath it must be done using the anchient jewish calendar, “lunar solar”. I encouraged you to conduct your research.

    On another note, I am a third generation SDA, sitting hear on my computer with my bible in hand searching. Lost and searching because of my discovery regarding Ellen G White, the sabbath, tithing, investigative judgement and our interpretation of Daniel 8:14. I am also angry because I have been lied to.

    There is overwhelming evidence from history that the Roman Catholic Church did not change the sabbath from saturday to sunday. We accept based on erroneous history that they did change the sabbath. They claim that they did because their church was the first church and Peter was the first Pope. So as SDA if we accept any part of their claim we must also accept their claim as Peter being the first Pope, the two cannot be separated.

    My study regarding the anchient jewish calendation (lunar solar calendar) and more recently the books of Galations and Hebrews has provided me with proof that the sabbath was done away with. If I continue with keeping of the sabbath I would seriously consider what the “World’s Last Chance” cult has to say regarding the jewish day of reckoning. I would have to join that cult.

    Regarding Ellen G. White, she has made merchandise of the gospel of Christ. She heavily borrowed from other authors and denied it and covereded it up. She has been proven to be very dishonest.

    Daniel 8:14, it is time for our church scholars to be honest regarding its interpretation.

    Tithing – falls under the old jewish covenant. I would pay if there were levites to give it to. You do the research.

    National sunday law – a figment of adventist fear mongering misinterpretation of adventist false prophetic interpretation.

    Leaving the Adventist Cult is challenging for me. I have kids whose friends are all Adventist. I live in a small community of Adventist. My social life and family life is all based on adventism.

    I am home on my computer searching with my bible totally in disbelief, how could I have preached and believe a lie.

    Its mothers day sabbath. Ten years ago my mother died in the father. Believing that Adventist is the remnant church called by God with a distinctive message.

  95. The most dangerous cults are those that masquerade as authentic Protestants and/or Evangelicals in our communities. Due to the extra-biblical writings and reveries of Ellen White, Seventh-day Adventists cannot be considered to be Protestants. As a third-generation SDA and former SDA minister, my wife and I collectively have more than 100 years of active experience in Seventh-day Adventism. All in all, there are only two kinds of Adventists–the deceived and the dishonest.

    In His power and for HIs glory,

    Dennis J. Fischer
    Blog: http://notesfromdennisfischer.blogspot.com

  96. I have not had time to read this entire thread. That said a few points become obvious.

    We should not be judging each other on our relationship with God. Now SDA brothers and sisters and non-sda brothers and sisters God loves you both and I love you also. But I should not put my obediance in any persons hands. That belongs to God alone. If God has given to you that you should worship on Saturday obey God. To others if God has given to you to worship some othe day obey God.

    The scripture distinctly says we are not under law. This from Galations 5:

    13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

    16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
    19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

    Don’t you see that God is of higher authority than anything else. If He lives in use and we listen to Him we will do His will.

  97. Everthing about this article is false. I am an adventist and Ellen g. White wrttings supports the bible. And we are Christian. For the people who supports this article has no light in them.

  98. tintin, thank you for stopping by. Actually, the Bible needs no support for it stands on its own as the complete Word of God. White’s writings add nothing to the Bible but false teaching. A true Christian is one who has come by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone and been brought to repentance and confession of sin. This means salvation without the addition or subtraction of anything but what the Scripture states. Is this what you as an individual believe because I know that the Adventist religion does not.

  99. So sad. Sda’s claim they hear Jesus, but they got their start with Ellen Harmon’s (White) participation in time setting, not being able to obey His word on such topic.

    Furthermore EGW appealed to Daniel 8:14 as something to be fulfilled in 1844 when Matt 5:17-18 clearly has Jesus saying He came to fulfill the prophets and law, but the SDA’s will have none of Jesus’ words! Why is that, you ask?

    24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. John 14

    Clearly SDA’s love something that is not Jesus and can be counted as idolators.

    2 Corinthians 11 states that those who teach a foreign ‘Jesus’ are actually servants of Satan. But without the rebirth SDA’s will continue to teach their doctrines of demons.

  100. Brendan,

    The Eskimos around the Arctic Circle do NOT observe the Mosaic Sabbath. It would impossible without sunsets. Moreover, the Seventh-day Adventist Church does NOT publish a sunset calendar for them either. Ellen White, the SDA prophetess, messenger, and infallible interpreter of Scripture, was asked about Sabbath observance in northern Norway and Alaska repeatedly. Her response always was that God’s people should not live in those areas (smile).

    Since the apostle John tells us that there are no nights in heaven, so it would also be impossible to observe the Jewish Sabbath there. Darkness is only eternally reserved for a place called “hell” (i.e., the fallen angels who are now chained in pits of darkness (2 Peter 2:4; Jude 13). Interestingly, Jesus talked more about hell than all of the Bible writers combined. There are at least two reasons why hell is eternal; specifically, the unconfessed and unforgiven sins of the wicked are forever before the Father and those confined to hell keep on sinning endlessly. There are no atheists in hell, only believers. Furthermore, there is no praying nor soul searching going on in hell. It’s hard to have a party in utter darkness.

    Dennis J. Fischer, Web Chaplain
    http://www.dennisfischerministries.org

  101. Greetings all in the majestic name of Jesus Christ, by the grace of our heavenly Father and through the power of the Holy spirit.

    I`ve only stumbled on this site today I believe by the spirit and read some interesting comments. First of all I don’t believe in Sunday Sabbath nor the keeping of the original Sabbath, but I have found my rest in Christ Jesus. My colleague is also an Adventist and gave me some dvd `s of Mark Woodman about end times. Something in the early session that upset me in my spirit was the fact he claimed that Jesus actually was the archangel Michael. If this is the believe of all Adventists than we certainly serve two different Gods. My Jesus was 100% man yet fully God.(1John 4:3)

    Grace and peace be on you all.

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