64 Comments

What is on Mark Driscoll’s shirt?

In the following video of Mark Driscoll I observed something that may have gone unnoticed (or ignored) by the masses of Driscollites.

Is the image on his shirt truly a depiction Jesus Christ (what we commonly associate in the West as being Jesus for those who will split hairs in Driscoll’s defense)? And is that depiction of who we commonly associate in the West as being Jesus Christ also being depicted on his shirt as a DJ at the turntables?

How completely irreverent but oh, so relevant.

His depiction of the Savior on his shirt betrays everything he says in the video. ‘Tis a shame, ’tis a shame indeed.

dj

64 comments on “What is on Mark Driscoll’s shirt?

  1. @The Pilgrim: All I can say is to quote you, “How completely irreverent…”

  2. Yep, Pilgrim.

    The potty-mouthed prodigy was wearing a t-shirt depicting the Eternal Son, the King of kings and Lord of lords, the Risen Savior, the Lamb of God slain before the foundations of the world, our Kinsman Redeemer, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Second Person of the Trinity, God incarnate, as a disc jockey at a turntable.

    And Mark Driscoll passes himself off as an under-shepherd of the Lord? Well I’m not buying it. Driscoll has “hireling” written all over him, literally.

    Has the man no reverence for God Almighty? Has he no fear of God?

    How long, oh Lord?!?

    In Christ,
    CD

  3. For one thing, I think he’s a bit too old for such attire. Call me old fashioned, but I am ill at ease with portrayals of the Lord on T-shirts, mugs, etc. I won’t say it’s a graven image, but they just don’t ever really portray the LORD OF GLORY that made Isaiah fall on his face and say “woe is me, I am undone”. I think that it would do him well to be just a little more formal in his dress – he’s delivering the word of God, not a pizza.

  4. Whats this guy going to do next ?… Thanks for the heads-up.

    Keep exposing error !

  5. Ooooh!!! Come ooon!
    Are we tithing our spices while being a bunch of humorless guys too??? (OK. it’s kind of disrespectfull – my mom didnt like it as well)

  6. You must not really follow Mark Driscoll. If you did you would know that people send him Jesus tee shirts all the time, and he wears them. “Lord save me from your followers”, “Jesus is my home boy”.

    He doesn’t wear these tee shirts because he thinks Jesus would make a sweet DJ. lol. He doesn’t do it to be trendy and cool. He doesn’t do it to mock Jesus. He does it to mock people who picture Jesus in a flowing brilliant white dress, pasty white caucasian skin, with a mullet loaded with hair product, and an untouchable God.

    Jesus IS worshipped as God not because he took a kingly stance while on earth, but because as God he put on himself the image of a servant — even in his death. Obviously, people had a problem with this. Peter said don’t wash my feet. John said, “Jesus, I should be baptized by you.” The religious leaders condemned him saying, he’s a friend of tax collectors and sinners.

    So does Mark mock Jesus? No. Does he mock your personal picture of Jesus… I believe so.

  7. Ryan I have heard some laim excuses for this mans behaviour, but yours has to be the best yet.

    Correct me if Im wrong but you are saying that he wears images on his t-shirts mocking Jesus to mock people that mock Jesus ?

    talk about double speak …I could think of a million better ways to condemn something than appearing to go along with it….Why doesn’t he just condemn it publically and admit that he, by his bahaviour is giving people the wrong impression?

    One Driscollite told me on my blog, he did it “to upset the stiff necked Christians that are not as cool as him” or words to that effect….Seems like you will go to any lengths to protect your golden calf from people that expose his error, instead of just admitting HE IS WRONG !!

    - dale

  8. Ryan,

    Jesus is a “homeboy”? Really. I thought Jesus was the only begotten Son of God.

    You see these T-shirts who may seem so harmless to folks like Driscoll, and all the devotees of bringing Jesus down to their level forget that Jesus wants to bring humanity up to His level.

    I have even heard it put by some preachers that they are merely giving Jesus more “street cred” by doing such things. However, my daughter tells me “homie” is also another name for druggies in the teenage crowd, and members of gangs. So that word can mean something more than just a familiar friend.

    What’s next: Jesus for dog lovers, depicted as a holy golden retriever, who brings us to Him? Jesus, the Son of God, as the great dane in the sky? You see how ridiculous, not to mention irreverent to our Lord and Savior, this can all get?

    In the meantime, the real message of Christ gets lost in trying to see who can be the coolest Christian.

  9. I wonder if you are familiar with Tim Keller’s work. Keller (a huge influence on Dricoll, but someone who would likely meet your aesthetic standards) says the ‘way to win the antinomians is to deconstruct legalism.’ I could not agree more. Non-Christian x-ers et al need to know that we are not inviting them to be self-righteous prudes. Driscoll uses t-shirts as part of this deconstruction.

    Did you listen to what he is saying in the video? It is compelling and orthodox. How can you say the message of Christ is lost…it is right there and thousands are giving it a hearing and coming under Christ’s lordship. This tastes of sour grapes. Stop shooting your brother. Yours is precisely the type of legalism he has to deconstruct before a Northwestern Xer will even listen to the gospel. They are afraid of becoming you. Driscoll is telling them that the younger, wayward prodigal can be welcomed home without becoming the bitter self righteous older brother.

  10. Err, Stanford….

    I am a northwesterner, Spokane to be exact. Since when do we have to de-construct something in order to build something? That word is a overused misnomer in my humble opinion.

    And legalism? That is another misnomer flung at those who stick to the Bible as it’s written, not as culture believes it should be. Legalism is actually an invention of putting men’s traditions in place of God’s words, as the Pharisees did. Sticking to God’s truth is not legalism, but what Jesus himself commanded His people to do.

    The X generation? For Christians there is no such thing. Christ is for all generations. He is no respecter of persons, so why should preachers have to be? That’s the point. It’s not about who has the best method for appealing to who, but the Who of the message, which should reflect the truth and nothing but.

    Now, I am not criticizing Driscoll’s message in this video, only his propensity to try to be overly hip. In my opinion (legalistic and judgmental though it obviously seems to you) I think trying to lower Christ to street level is a mistake, because it doesn’t command the respect He deserves as the son of God. I think we need to teach folks to raise their bar instead.

  11. “I think trying to lower Christ to street level is a mistake, because it doesn’t command the respect He deserves as the son of God. I think we need to teach folks to raise their bar instead.”

    Amen !!!

  12. The Apostle Paul sure didn’t feel the need to “deconstruct” Christianity. He came right out and told people, “Be like me.” He could say this without pride because he was “being like” Christ, not like an unregenerate sinner.

  13. re: damned on the cross; lowering to street level; imitating Paul…
    sounds like ‘he became a curse for us’; you cant get
    lower than the Cross; and: Paul’s confession as the chief of sinners. After seeing the video (was Jesus really a DJ?) I rejoice (with Paul) that the gospel is preached.
    Dale: Only one of your ‘eyebars’ are raised(your icon)…but thats a good thing: it denotes the bad and the good; the sinful me and the new me. If Jesus is raised up on the Cross; if our purpose is to thank God that He did this and we preach the gospel, then it is holy. I didnt hear his language, but if it reaches people who always use it, Id not be quick to judge the other motives. Let God judge that, but I do want the main message preached to be right.

  14. middlin’ park,

    Not sure i understand all of what you meant, but do agree that I want the main message preached to be right.

    Now I am not trying to make a mountain out of a molehill, but here is where I stand:

    On the one hand, Driscoll is preaching a powerful message about God’s ability to save, but on the other, he is giving mixed messages about God’s sovereignty by wearing a t-shirt depicting Jesus as a DJ, and then there is the other one that says “Jesus is my homeboy”.

    Now, were I a person unfamiliar with Jesus and hearing the gospel message for the first time I would ask myself such questions as how can one of my good ole neighborhood homeboys save me, and how a could a mere DJ have so much power over the universe, and all that is in it?

    Do you see my point?

  15. Middlin park said : ” I didnt hear his language, but if it reaches people who always use it, Id not be quick to judge the other motives. Let God judge that, but I do want the main message preached to be right. ”

    Sigh!….While we are at it lets all smoke canabis so that we can reach those that take drugs…Hey !….If it reaches people who use it.

    Since when did the end justify the means ?

  16. Just as an aside, Jesus, during His public ministry as Jesus of Nazareth about 2000 years ago, was sometimes in the company of tax collectors, prostitutes, and assorted “sinners.” Nowhere in Scripture, however, did He Himself mock His Own deity. Nor did He encourage His followers to do so. He reached out to the rejected sinners of society in a way no one has, before or since. But let us be clear. He never made light of their sin in order to be “relevant,” to “relate to them,” or to “reach them where they are.”

    When Mr. Driscoll wears a t-shirt portraying Jesus as a DJ spinning at a turntable, regardless of his motive, He is mocking the King of Glory. Jesus does not need a public relations agent to make Him more palatable to men. Men cry out to the Lord when they recognize their sinful condition and dire need for a Savior, not when they finally have to admit that Jesus and some Christians, are really pretty “cool” after all.

  17. I like how someone has the guts to stand up and say that maybe we’re being a little hyper-judgmental of a guy, that seems to be an excellent preacher with good motives for the things that does, and everyone else pounces on him.

    You guys are not condemning this man’s theology, you’re not condemning his leadership, or even his actions. You are really upset because of a T-Shirt that he wore?

    And what is so offensive about a DJ anyway? I know several good Christian DJ’s. One that works for a secular radio station that actually plays a lineup of Christian music every Sunday Morning.

    We use the word Pharisee like it’s something foreign to our culture today. We say “Oh those Pharisee’s were just rotten!” “Oh those Pharisee’s were SO legalistic.” Are we really any better than the Pharisees when we nitpick what the preacher is wearing? Why would we want to cause dissension over what really should be non-issues? Where is the line between humorous and blasphemous? (not that I’m saying you should purposely skirt the line, which I don’t believe that Driscolls really is.)

    “Jesus is a “homeboy”? Really. I thought Jesus was the only begotten Son of God.”
    ~mbaker

    He is, but he’s so much more than that. In case you haven’t noticed God and Jesus are given literally hundreds of different titles in the Bible. So you think it’s blasphemous to call him something other than a name found in scripture?
    Well the Bible was not written in English, so what version are you using?

    And since God is also “indescribable” do you think all the words that apply to him are already in scripture? Jesus is more than we can understand or comprehend. What does homeboy really mean? That he’s my close friend right? Is that really offensive?

    John 15:13-15
    “‘Greater love has no one that this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.”

    Now what does it say? You are my friends IF you do what I command right? I believe Mr. Driscoll’s track record speaks for himself. He is preaching the gospel right? And didn’t he start a large church in a community that was and still probably is considered for the most part very ungodly?

    Hmm… sounds like he’s trying to fulfull the great commission, to “go unto all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit”… Why would you want to drag that kind of a ministry through the mud over petty squabbles?

    “And legalism? That is another misnomer flung at those who stick to the Bible as it’s written, not as culture believes it should be. Legalism is actually an invention of putting men’s traditions in place of God’s words, as the Pharisees did. Sticking to God’s truth is not legalism, but what Jesus himself commanded His people to do.”
    ~mbaker

    Using your own words “Legalism is actually an invention of putting men’s traditions in place of God’s words.” You can twist this any way you want, but Mark Driscoll is not “making light” of Jesus. He’s trying to portray Jesus in a way that is real and relevant to the culture he is trying to reach. If you go look at different cultures they all have their own “Jesus”. Do you really think Jesus was white? Cuz I highly doubt it.

    Is he watering down the gospel message? I would say if you listen to the video in this posting and say that he is that you are either a liar, or you’re crazy.

    In closing, I found this posting when I started searching the internet to try and find out what objections people have to the preaching of Mark Driscoll and I have been appalled at what I have found thus far. This is not a docrinal, and so we need to stop tearing down our fellow brother in Christ.

    Just listen to what the man is saying. He speaks the gospel message loud and clear, and he is reaching thousands of people for Christ. What are you doing to advance the gospel of Christ?

  18. Dear David:

    DefCon has in fact dealt much with Mark “the Cussing Pastor” Driscoll on many other posts on many other subjects. Simply type Driscoll into our search engine to see the other posts.

    This particular post just happens to be on MD’s blaspheming of Jesus Christ by depicting Him in such a flippant and irreverent manner that brings neither glory nor honor to the King of Kings, but instead brings dishonor and mockery.

    MD’s shirt is just an extension of what’s deeper. His blasphemy of Jesus Christ on his T-shirt comes from a willingness to blaspheme Jesus Christ from the pulpit.

    As for you, nothing we can say will ever convince you otherwise. You will continue to defend him tooth and nail because you like him. You will always find a way to justify him as our human nature always finds a way to justify whatever gratifies our flesh. Only God can change this.

    Sincerely,
    - The Pilgrim

    If you would please, turn with me to the Song of Solomon. One of the great books of the Bible. Some have allegorized this book, and in so doing, they have destroyed it. They have destroyed it. They will say that it is an allegory between Jesus and his bride the church. Which if true, is weird. Because Jesus is having sex with me and puts his hand up my shirt. And that feels weird. I love Jesus, but not in that way.
    - Mark Driscoll

  19. “And what is so offensive about a DJ anyway?”

    Maybe I’m assuming too much, but I thought the job of a “DJ” was to entertain people. If that is true, can we really think it’s a good idea to portray Christ Jesus as a DJ?

  20. Thank you for the advice “The Pilgrim”. I; however, realize that Driscoll has probably said some things in the past that could cause problems, but have you listened much to him recently? People change, and I sincerely believe that if his heart was not right before that he has changed for the better, and that we’re beating a dead horse by continuing to slander him.

    “Ministry Addict”
    So there’s a problem with Jesus entertaining people? We’re supposed to be like Jesus right? Are all Christian “entertainers” sinning by being entertainers? What about the Christian music industry? What about Christian Comedians that use comedy to spread the gospel? What about people that run Christian Radio stations to spread a positive message?

    If; however, being an entertainer itself is not a sin, and if it’s possible to reach a lot of people doing it… then why could you not see Jesus being an entertainer?

  21. Again, as I said, maybe I’m assuming too much. I stand willing to be corrected. But I thought “DJs” played records or CDs or some type of musical recordings for people to dance to or maybe listen to. (I’m talking about the type of “DJ” on Driscoll’s shirt, not the fellow who sits in a radio studio.)

    The teenaged children I witness to say that the common perception of a “DJ” is carnal and worldly, and most of the music that DJs play is designed to appeal to sinful sensuality. The famous DJs that are well-known in popular culture are not known for their Christian faith. Maybe you know of some fantasy world where good, Godly “DJs” play Christ-honoring music that helps people mortify their flesh, but I’m talking reality, here.

    You ask: “Why could you not see Jesus being an entertainer?”

    Because I don’t see it in the Bible. I don’t see the Lord Jesus or any of His true followers doing comedy routines, performing “stand-up,” being involved in any “industry,” or performing for the mere entertainment of men.

    You say: “..if it’s possible to reach a lot of people doing it…”

    It’s “possible” to do a lot of things “to reach people.” The question is, is it possible, and even Biblical, to reach them without portraying the the Lord and Savior, the Almighty God, as something frivolous and associated with sinful culture, and with mere entertainment? About the only people I can think of who pretended to be amused by or entertained by Christ were Pilate and the Roman soldiers, and the crowds that mocked Him, and then howled for His crucifixion. They put a mocking crown of thorns on Him. Mr. Driscoll would give Him two turntables and microphone.

    He’s coming back one day. I believe it will be soon. And He won’t, according to Scripture, be coming to show off His record-spinning abilities. He will put an end to the party of those who thought He was just “the life of the party,” but did not believe He was THE LIFE. (John 14:6)

  22. David,

    May I ask a few questions —

    1. If and a big IF, Driscoll has changed, then why has there been no clear separation from what he has taught previously?
    2. Why has Driscoll not stepped forward and sought open repentance for the reproach he has brought upon the testimony of the church at large?
    3. Why has Driscoll not given a retraction on the statements he has made? The little video response he gave to Phil Johnson was lame at best, did NOT address the true heart of the matter, and was a clever sidestepping of the issues that Phil Johnson rightly pointed out in his message at the Shepherd’s Conference?
    4. Why have none of his supporters (including some well-known pastors who have endorsed him) stepped forward and made a claim that Driscoll has repented?
    5. Why would we not have an issue with Driscoll who while holding the office of an elder act in a way that is not blameless and yet not consider stepping down until at the very least, his ministry is back in line with the Word of God?

    *******

    On one different note regarding “Jesus entertaining people”—

    I do not ever recall reading where the holy, impeccable Lord Jesus Christ, God of heaven and earth, coming to this earth to tell jokes, put on dog and pony shows, entertain the crowds with raunchy shows or the devil’s music, or used comedy to ease the crushing weight of guilt that would come with the preaching of His messages!

    I DO remember reading where He preached twice as much on hell as He did on heaven. I DO remember that He called the religious establishment a bunch of vipers. I DO remember where He wept when He saw the condition of the people and KNEW their hearts and KNEW they would not come to Him because they enjoyed their sin too much to repent! I DO remember reading that life is only a vapour that is here for a very short time and quickly disappears, and that after this comes THE JUDGMENT! I DON’T remember anywhere in Scripture that commands us to spread “positive messages” like the heretic at Crystal Cathedral has been doing for years.

    The real question is if 1 Corinthians 10:31 commands us that whether we eat or drink OR WHATSOEVER we do, we are to do ALL to the glory of God, then how is making light or fun of the gospel, or watering down the message by pulling “Christian” rabbits out of hats in order to draw a crowd, or whatever bringing glory to God when the message of salvation is so serious and the penalties for rejecting it are so damning?????

    The Desert Pastor

  23. David,

    I stand by my comment of December 23. I think if you read it in context rather than pulling out bits and pieces to argue with, you will get the idea.

    I am speaking of the reverencing of Christ our Lord and Savior here, not merely criticizing Mark.

    I think his t-shirt is the secondary issue, but it shows by even wearing it that he’s not thinking Jesus is enough on his own, and has to be made into something that people on the street can identify with. That’s not raising the bar to Jesus, it’s lowering the gospel to someone else’s idea of how to best ‘market’ Him.

    It’s a just get ‘em in anyway you can kind of thing, which after the novelty wears off, (like Christian pizza parties and the like), so often times the so-called conversion lasts only as long the pizza or the t-shirt. Seen it happen way too many times in my years in ministry, that once the preacher or the current spiritual guru, or the latest song or program stops being cool to the people they are reaching, so does Christianity. That’s because, whether it’s intended or not, it becomes more about the motivational methods that folks are responding to than a lasting, life changing message from and about Jesus Christ.

    While you may be an exception, that’s my final opinion after years of involvement in different kinds of ministries, whether it be Mark or anyone else who preaches the word of God doing it.

    Just wanted to qualify a little better what I meant. I know Mark preaches a gospel message, it’s just that I wonder how many folks are reacting to Christianity because of his edgy methods or whether it’s really the heart of the gospel message, Christ, they are responding to that will make their conversion a real and lasting one.

    As my mom used to say “Every dog has his day.” Time, as always, will tell whether what Mark is doing to attract folks has any eternal impact on people’s lives for Christ, or whether he’s just another passing flash in the pan.

    God bless.

  24. David~ I would like to address this statement from you, ‘So there’s a problem with Jesus entertaining people? We’re supposed to be like Jesus right? Are all Christian “entertainers” sinning by being entertainers? What about the Christian music industry? What about Christian Comedians that use comedy to spread the gospel? What about people that run Christian Radio stations to spread a positive message? If; however, being an entertainer itself is not a sin, and if it’s possible to reach a lot of people doing it… then why could you not see Jesus being an entertainer?’

    I could ask for scriptural references concerning your statement and that would shut this debate down right here and now.
    As for the ‘music industry’ or using ‘comedy’ to spread a serious message such as the Gospel, I pray God will gift you with discernment. The church in America {as Laodicean as she is} has taken what is offensive, serious, and needs to be spoken with urgency, love, boldness, and fearlessness, and added ‘man’s touch’ to it. This is called ‘watering down’ God’s word. What happens when that is done? It becomes null and void, powerless. It no longer has any affect.

    This is from Acts 4:29, ‘Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness.’ The word ‘boldness’ is from the Greek ‘parrēsia’ meaning ‘freedom in speaking, unreservedness in speech, without the use of figures and comparisons, free and fearless confidence, cheerful courage, boldness, assurance’. Do you see anything from just this one passage referring to ‘singing’, or making a comedy ‘act’ out of the Gospel?

    What does the Apostle Paul say about adding ‘human wisdom’ to preaching? “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel-not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.” 1 Cor. 1:17

    Human wisdom destroys the message. This is why you cannot ‘sing’ people into heaven, nor can you do a stand up comedy act and expect God to move through you. This is not ‘putting God in a box’, this is following the guideline we who profess Christ are SUPPOSED to be following…the Holy Bible; nothing added, nothing taken away.

    As for Driscoll’s blasphemous t-shirt; is it showing reverence and respect for a Holy God by depicting an image of Him spinning records?!? The problem with today’s version of ‘Christianity’ is the LACK of reverence and fear for a Holy God, the absolute ignorance of the attributes of a God that is immutable, sovereign, righteous, holy, exalted high above His creation. Yet, we insist on bringing Him ‘down to earth’ and making a God that is set apart relevant, cool, and cultural. May God have mercy on all who shame Him and disrespect Him in such a way as this.

  25. I appreciate all of your comments… I really just do not have time to continue to rebut the arguments of 4 or 5 different people… I’m also obviously not going to change anyone’s mind here and that was not my intent… I just wanted to provoke some more thought on the matter at hand.

    I honestly think that if you look at the ministry of Driscoll’s church, and the message that he preaches, and how they have people back into God’s word, doing in depth studies of scripture, that it is obvious that God has a hand in what is going on there.

    Do I support every statement/decision that Driscoll has said/made? No. I also don’t agree with a lot of things that people I know and trust have done/said.

    I get tired of the fact that people(not just people at this board but all over the internet) keep referencing things that Driscoll said “a couple years ago” or the way “he used to” cuss during sermons sometimes. Why label him “the cussing pastor”. Have you heard him cuss in a sermon recently? What is that title’s intention?

    Do I think Driscoll is perfect? No I do not? Do I think that he is striving and growing and doing the Lord’s work? I do.

    And to reference a couple of you that acted as if I was a “Driscollite”… or someone that came to Christ through him, you have obviously made many assumptions about the type of person that I am that are not true. That in itself is a way to offend people quickly. But maybe that’s what you’re trying to do is just “deflect” honest, heartfelt dissent from your board. If; however, that is not what you are trying to do, making “assumptions” about an opponent is one of the worst mistakes that you can make, especially when you make assumptions and based on them speak to your opponent in a condescending manner.

    I am a minister at a non-denominational Christian Church, and I came to Christ before Driscoll ever started preaching. I like to listen to Driscoll because He does a good job (for the most part) of exegeting scripture, and of making it understandable. I think it’s just silly for us to continue to attack this man on all fronts.

    If you believe that he has doctinal issues bring those, and focus on them. There is no need to continuously slander the man over petty squabbles, and in fact by doing it you lose a large part of your possible realm of influence. No one will listen to someone that debates by hurling insults and criticism’s over petty things at their opponent(s). That is how politicians work, not how Christian’s are supposed to, and if you push it too far you’re tend to make yourselves come off like self-righteous pharisees as well.

    In closing, It is obvious that everyone that supports this blog has spent a considerable amount of time thinking about this, I would just like to ask that you prayerfully consider what issues/people are really worth going after. There is also a great deal of scripture about not being “divisive” with other members of the body of Christ.

  26. David,

    While I appreciate where you are coming from, I think if you read the replies on other threads regarding Driscoll, you will see what I mean.

    I have not always agreed with the thinking on this blog, regarding Driscoll, and certainly the authors of this blog well know I have attempted to be fair to him as well, as I too had to be shown he was not completely okay in his teachings.

    The problem here I don’t think you are really getting: Either we stick with Christ’s version, or we don’t. I, for one, think Mark is overly too concerned of the street version of the gospel appealing to the common man, rather than reverencing Christ as far more than a homeboy for every Tom and Dick and Harry coming along who wants Christ to be all about them and where they are at the moment. The difference as isee anyway, and certainly can’t speak for anyone else here is between a temporal gospel and an eternal one.

    Mark seems to me to be embracing more ‘situational ethics’ than anything. John Fletcher specialized in that long before Mark did. I suggest you read up on him.

    Surely if you are a minister of the gospel, you realize our concerns are much more than that of what appears on a t-shirt.

    God bless.

  27. driscoll, et al, must realize that Jesus is not cool. He is no one’s homeboy (or boy in any sense). & He wouldn’t have ridden a harley. even the catholics know He’s God of very God.

    the “cooler” we are, as His followers, the LESS relevant we are. holy means different, not cool.

    Jesus is not our pod’nah, He’s our MASTER! bow your knee!

  28. Hello all, my first time to comment here. I hope it provides some value.

    The commenters on this blog all seem pretty well educated. Many of you are preachers, most probably long time Christians, and identify with the christian subculture. I myself grew up in the rural south, the son of a baptist pastor.

    We all identify or belong to a subculture whether we actively realize it or not. If you are a farmer, and another farmer gives you advice, you are likely to heed his advice much more so than the yuppie in the beemer giving the exact same advice in different form.

    The Seattle subculture is very different. If you aren’t from around here, it is hard to explain. People making 250k a year will compost their own human waste to save water, and bike to work 30 miles to reduce their carbon footprint. They are all highly educated and a very high percentage are highly technical and scientifically minded, due to the large tech companies here (Microsoft, Amazon, Nintendo). They are not going to listen to a farmer.

    Paul taught the Corinthians about this in 1 Cor Chapter 9, in the ‘be all things to all people’ section we all know about. We all know Paul.. this is the guy that called out Peter to his face for being a hypocrite. He’s not talking about watering down the message. He’s talking about making it as easy as possible for the hearer to LISTEN to the message.

    I don’t think Paul means we dress up and put on an act every time we go preach.. my father certainly did not have a ‘city slicker preacher outfit’ and a ‘country bumpkin preacher outfit’. He was himself.

    God had placed him where he, and his message, were relevant. I believe God has done the same for Driscoll.

    The Bible refers to Christ as the Gardener several times. As a gardener myself, if my rake complained that my shovel didn’t have tines.. I’d be upset with the rake.. not the shovel.

    We are God’s tools. We are all unique and perfectly suited to doing His ministry as He sees fit.

    The only question can be whether or not Driscoll is doing the Good Work.

    Change of subject here.

    I tend to view Christ from the christian subculture I mentioned above. By default, I see Him as most of you do.. Lord Almighty, Ruling Savior, Jesus Creator. Of course He is all of those things. But He is all of those things to US.. here and now in 2009.

    What was He to them, back when He was on earth physically? He was radical. He was a gamechanger, a total rebel against the religion of the day.

    In Revelations John describes Jesus as a pretty tough dude. I can see where Driscoll comes from in the ‘mocking those who think of Jesus as a mulleted white guy’. Is this particular t-shirt ok? Haven’t decided, probably won’t invest the time to decide. There are more edifying areas to spend my time.

    Hope I didn’t ramble too bad. Thanks for reading. Stay in the Word.

  29. Aaron,

    Hi. Before Pilgrim, Fourpointer and the like surely reply to your post. I’d just like to state that the real issue with Mark is that he uses incorrect contextualisation.

    What do I mean? You wrote of Paul ‘being all things to all men’ and that is correct, yet only correct when nothing else is comprimised. So, there is a right and wrong way to contextualise.

    In a nutshell, Mark is happy to meet the carnal at their carnality. He has no qualms in lowering his standards to appeal to the culture’s felt need’s.

    It is like a 15 year boy asking his parents how he should be raised. That is incorrect and not what God ordained.

    Until Mark acknowledges his incorrect contextualising(which he may or may not have done as yet), he must be considered quite dangerous in that area.

  30. Matthew you are completely on target and correct.

    Until the man changes, I will not step foot in Mars Hill as the way he speaks it extremely dangerous and reckless at times.

    I am not going to go into detail as to what he says or does as a little research will give you more than enough to make you cringe. I also have written about it on my blog.

    Gods word does not come back void, and we don’t have to skew it to fill the pews. We need to preach the gospel truth period, and let the Holy Spirit convict the soul from the truth spoken.

    Narrow is the way and few will find it, but wide is the path that leads to destruction and many will find it. That is the part that way too many Christians forget about, the path si wide that leads to destruction. ( Matthew 7:13-14 )

    We all sin yes, but we better get right back on the narrow path and turn from our sin and repent.

    The gospel is not to be taken lightly nor in a joking manner.

    I never heard Paul, Jesus, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, David, Abraham, Moses, Adam, Lot, Jonah crack crud jokes or speak secular at anytime, quite the contrary…

  31. I have read a lot of good thoughts on this site. And before I give my opinion I would like to say (for better or worse) I like the t-shirt. I saw this preacher for the first time on a video series my small group has started and he was wearing the shirt in question. And I leaned over to a friend of my who is in our church band and said Jesus the Master Scratcher.

    Now as far t-shirts with Jesus on them go. I have seen some that are clearly distasteful, and I have seen others like this one that I would wear because I think it is different and a cool way to possibly lead into a conversation about God. I do not see anything demeaning or degrading about this shirt. God/Jesus to me is very much the king of kings and Lord of Lords. Although I also see God/Jesus as my brother and my friend.
    How do you know that if Jesus walked on this earth in this day and time that he would not have been a dj at some point in his 36 years of life? In todays society Dj’ing is a way of life, much life carpentry, sheep herding and fishing was in his time.
    Right or wrong in my opinion seeing Jesus as a DJ Could possibly help me to witness to someone by making the same correlation I just made here. That Jesus walked on this earth as a man and dealt with the same struggles that you and I deal with every day.
    Let me Possibly put a different spin on this whole thing for some people.
    IF we are to live our lives as a witness and as the saying goes “you may be the closest thing to Jesus some may see” Then when you look at that picture imagine that you are Jesus looking at a picture of the heart and soul of people like Toby Mac (DC Talk) or any of the members of Audio A or P.O.D. Because if they are truly CHRISTians then when they play their music it would be same as Jesus doing it.

    I know some people may disagree with me and that is fine I justed wanted to add my two cents.

  32. T-shirt of “Jesus” on it; the long hair, blue-eyed hippy “Jesus?” Blasphemy and a clear violation of the Scriptures and 2nd commandment. Something which the Protestant church held to for years but now she is so much like mama Rome that you can scarcely tell the difference at times.

    And this, sad as it is for me to say, is honestly worse than Roman Catholicism because for all the images, statues and paintings of “Jesus” I saw in my RC days, never, ever did I see a priest stooping so low as to put a picture of him on a t-shirt.

    And “Jesus” as a DJ? That is beyond the realm of what I even want to address in a reply. For those of you who believe different, you best study the Scriptures and pray for eyes to see this wickedness.

  33. BP,

    Let me say first off, you are welcome to your two cents. Can’t speak for anyone else, but I value honesty, whether it’s misplaced or not.

    However, we are talking about what Jesus thinks, not what we think is necessarily okay. I ask again, as I have so many times: While it is true Jesus ate and drank with sinners, did He give up His beliefs to reach then? Did he feel he had to wear a t-shirt proclaiming He was the Son of God? No, absolutely not. Did he water down the necessity for repentance to reach unbelievers? No, again, absolutely not.

    This not about t-shirts, whether they are considered acceptable or not. But the question is: How far do we go to make Christ acceptable to the public?

    Do we have to have t-shirts, in good or bad taste, in order to get His message across? Isn’t the gospel itself sufficient, and what Christ did for us all on the cross? If it isn’t, what is, and why are any of us believing in it at all? Why do we have to have t-shirts or any other marketing method, depicting Him to get that across?

    You tell me.

  34. I am not giving you my two cents but sharing God’s word and his truth. If I have erred in application then I look for my brethren to show me where I have erred. Because opinions matter not a whit in God’s eye as his word is the standard, rightly divided and applied. And the Scriptures are clear and unambiguous regarding images.

    First, I ask, do you believe Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, the I AM, He who created all things and upholds them by his word, seated on the right hand of the Father in all glory and honor? Do you fear him and desire to live not by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from God? If not, then we have bigger issues. If so, which is my hopeful assumption, then listen to God’s Word:

    “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.” (Ex 20:4).

    “Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee. For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.” (Deu 4:23-24)

    These teachings are clear such that a child could understand them. And as such the church, before she was corrupted by the heresies emerging out of Rome, had no images of Jesus, no statues, no paintings. Only those who disobeyed God’s word during the fourth century and onward brought the forbidden images (amongst other things) into God’s church.

    And now though we go a step further and have a hippy “Jesus” spinning an album and you have no problem with this. I really am incredulous how this cannot cause you angst and righteous indignation. Even more so that you are defending it. You really think this blasphemous images is going to reach the lost? How about when Mark wears his even more blasphemous South Park “Jesus” t-shirt?

    If so, then you would be much better off pointing people to the local Roman Catholic cathedral or bookstore because you will get a whole lot more images. Or, wear a crucifix around your neck to have this “Jesus”with you all the time as a witness.

    You want to wear a t-shirt as a witness? Here is a suggestion. Put just Scripture on it because faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God not by viewing images of a false, freak Jesus. Because if images led people to Christ, then the Roman religion would be overflowing with converts to the faith.

  35. Not trying to be a jerk but is this really the issue we want to be debating in a public setting? Is this what we stand for as Christians? Think about how immature we are perceived when we argue for months over a stupid T-shirt.

  36. Dear Josh:

    Thanks for your comment.

    The mockery of our Lord and Savior by one who claims to represent Him as one of His ministers is not “immature,” nor is it a light or trivial matter. It never has been and it never will be.

    If you believe it is, my only recommendation is to open your Bible and reacquaint yourself with who Jesus Christ really is.

    Sincerely,
    - The Pilgrim

  37. Josh,

    I would also like to state that there was never an argument to begin with. Sadly, it is those who trivialize such immaturity as seen by individuals such as Mark Driscoll and his hosts of followers that continue to reappear and want to argue a point. Even worse is that NOT ONE of his followers have ever come here with sound Biblical doctrine and tried to argue a fundamental point of the faith once delivered to the saints. No, far better to throw out their favorite verse at us – “Judge not that you be not judged!” Yet, all the while, they are judging us for taking a stand against those who would lower the Christian banner into the slime of the world and find it “cute.”

  38. It cannot be stressed enough the lack of understanding of the attributes of God produces a nonchalant approach to who God is, especially His holiness. This approach produces a ‘no big deal’ type attitude as to who He is; our Lord is worthy of the utmost repsect and reverence. We should be in absolute awe of who He is and what He has done. To not understand the cheapening images plastered on t-shirts as blasphemous towards a Holy God is not surprising in this season of increased apostacy and deception. He is El Elyon, a God who is exalted high above His creation.
    I recommend a study by Paul Washer entitled, ‘One True God’ for all to get. It is available at http://www.hcmissions.org

  39. Pilgrim,

    I don’t disagree that “mocking” Jesus is wrong and an issue that should be addressed. However, I don’t feel that the pastor is wearing this shirt with any harmful intent. I do understand your viewpoint, I just hold a different one. I never called your faith or relationship with God into question, please don’t do that to me. We do not know one another and as brothers/sisters in christ we should be building one another up, not using our difference of opinion to question each others christianity.

    thanks,

    Josh

  40. No, Josh. I don’t think you’re a jerk, and I don’t think anyone here thinks that either. I think you just don’t see what the big deal is about a t-shirt. Certainly you recall the old phrase: “A picture speaks a thousand words”. A pastor teaches not just by his words. When a pastor wears something that presents an image of Jesus that is inconsistent with how He (the Almighty God, Who died for my sins, Who has delivered me from an eternity in hell) has described Himself in His word, then that pastor is presenting a perverted image of Him (Scripture calls it “another Jesus”: 2Cor. 11:4). Since the person and character of the Triune God is an inseparably part of the Gospel, perverting Who or how God is, changes the Gospel because it changes Who He is that we’re dealing with. Those who pervert the Gospel are specifically accursed (Gal. 1:8).

    Blasphemy is also tied in with this. Trifling with the person or character of God or His word, is blasphemy. That also is forbidden by God.

    The Almighty God of the universe does not take it as lightly as some think, when people portray Him in an irreverent, inaccurate, or inappropriate manner. Even speaking about God in an incorrect way incurs Gods’ wrath. Take a look at what God said of Job’s friends, “My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends: for they have not spoken of Me the thing that is right, as my servant Job has” (Job 42:7).

    So the reason his t-shirt causes such a stir is because it sends a false message about God. And Christians are responsible to contend for the faith, which includes the personality, nature, and character of the God in Whom we have faith in. Every false image of God must be exposed for the error that it is, so that we can proclaim rightly Who the real God is Who will judge all men. And, yes, we must expose it in a public setting such as this, because Driscoll has made it public on his website for all to see. And the public needs to know, that image on his shirt is not the Jesus of the Bible.

  41. Let me try a different way to frame this thread.

    Based on all of the above, lets assume the shirt holds negative value in some sense. It would follow then a positive image would exist.

    So what’s a good Jesus shirt?

    If there isn’t one, what reference do you have? All you reformers are so pretty :) I can’t find it anywhere. All I can find is sackcloth, unpleasant, short and bald, smelly fish guys and gals (maybe Mathew and Luke were lookers).

    Only sort of serious about this one.

  42. I understand your viewpoint, in that, due to the holy nature of God/Jesus portraying him as a DJ would somehow lessen the message. Bringing the divine down to our level would somehow compromise that same holy nature. The question that I have is much like the one that Plato posted above me in jest. What does make a good Jesus T-shirt? The idea that a T-shirt can reflect the nature of God does nothing but dilute the message and damage the grandeur of the creator. I also understand that the “Good, traditional” T-shirts are not trying to wrap God into a bumper sticker theology. I’m just trying to show the similarities, and how any shirt, if examined enough can be controversial. For example there are many Christian motorcycle organizations, which of course have their own T-shirts. Nobody doubts the validity of these people faiths, but the connotation that arrives with motorcycle clubs are ones of violence and general debauchery. Through these Christian organizations many people have had the opportunity to share their faith and the church is better because of it. “Be all things to all people….” I know that this is a touchy verse because people will misuse it to not live up to the life without repose that we are to strive for, however in this, I feel that it is appropriate. What if one person was affected positivley by this shirt? Jesus was not a DJ, clearly. But in a sense Jesus was a bartender was he not? In order to continue a wedding party he preformed his first miracle. So would it be more appropriate to show Jesus handing out glasses of wine to people? This image would be much more controversial without doubt. It’s not as if this T-shirt shows Christ doing anything inflammatory and I’m sure that we can agree on that. And you’re right Plato this T-shirt does not portray the Jesus in the bible, but can you show me a t-shirt that does?

    And someone posted about the “Homeboy” T-shirt earlier and that has nothing to do with drugs or gangs it’s just a term of endearment, like “friend” So the shirt just says Jesus is my friend.

  43. Back to basics. Who is the Almighty God? How has He said He is to be treated, honored and proclaimed? Who are we, and what is our responsibility toward God?

    If we want to give glory, honor, majesty, reverence, respect and thankfullness to God in our speech, in our behavior, or even by our clothing, how can we best do that, consistent with God’s word? No doubt there are lots of good choices we can make.

    If, by our clothing (or by any other means) we are presenting a false or inaccurate message about God, we are in error and leading others astray.

    Yes we are to reach the lost everywhere. How can we best represent God as we do so?

  44. “Perplexed” that is a good word, I was reading that in Luke 9 as I prepare my sermon for one of our church meetings in a fortnight.

    Yep, perplexed, that just about sums up how I feel towards those ( I will resist the urge to call them “so-called” ) Christians that have to actually question Driscolls behaviour and choice to wear this T-Shirt, and cannot decide if it is wrong or not.

    While I have not yet called your salvation into question perhaps I could encourage you to get to know God more, please begin by reading the book of Isaiah and Chapter 6.

    Isa 6:5 So I said: “Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, The LORD of hosts.

    Imagine if Isaiah was wearing one of these T-Shirts in the pressence of almighty God …Think about that …please.

    - dale

  45. Dale,

    Very well put and I agree!

  46. Perhaps I’m going to be railed for posting this comment, but I wonder if the t-shirt is simply meant to be a commentary on what people think of Jesus; meaning, if people treat Him like he’s their “homeboy” and that is ridiculous, why would a picture of Him as a dj be any more ridiculous?

    That said, it’s a weak defense and Driscoll probably shouldn’t have worn the shirt for the sake of the confusion of his congregants. Let’s remind him that not everyone is as discerning as another, and might not understand the cultural-referential he’s going for.

  47. When Jesus comes back He’s going to cleanse the pulpit ALONG with the temple!

  48. This looks to be an attempt, on Mark Driscoll’s part, to appeal to the masses on the same level that Rob Bell does. Except he is getting it entirely wrong. I find Mark Driscoll to be narcissistic at best. I have spent some time on his Facebook page recently, in the wake of Rob Bell’s newly released book “Love Wins” only to find a whole lot of mockery, subtle blows, and slander of Rob Bell. I attempted to debate with a few of these people on their posts and found them to be very angry and aggressive. No surprise there. Their teacher is angry and aggressive, calling pastors to be real men and not pansy, girly men who wear cardigans and skinny jeans and eat tofu dogs. I can only guess which pastor he is referring to.

  49. Ohh, necrothread. I wanna play!

    There is something that NOBODY has brought up; I looked through all the cooments and nobody has mentioned this.

    WHAT IS THE POINT OF THE T-SHIRT?

    Now I’m not going to enter into the debate on whether or not any picture of Jesus Christ is inherently blasphemous, and that discussion is irrelevant here anyway. This is a picture of Jesus Christ as a D.J., presumably in a dance club, and the message is … what? That He likes music? He likes dance? He’s entertaining? He’s not cool and this is irony? I like wearing clothes that are weird for the sake of being weird?

    A picture is worth a thousand words, but this one is just “huh?” a thousand times.

    As misguided as the “Jesus is my homeboy” shirts are, you can at least tell what the shirt is trying to say. It’s trying to send a Biblically positive message of the shirt wearer’s stand in Christ; this is not so much blasphemous as it is a poorly though-out idea. But this shirt? This is just nonsensical.

  50. 072591

    We can’t know the point of the T-shirt itself unless those who designed it tell us their point in designing it. But whatever their intent was, still does not address the weightier issue: is the image itself righteous, or not?

  51. i think the question is: what did he think it meant when he wore it, not the makers of the shirt, because he wore it for his own reasons. i stand behind the appealing to the masses argument, myself, specifically the more meatheaded ones as opposed to the intellectual ones.

  52. Julie:

    Driscoll has long insisted he does not mock the “true Jesus”, but the Jesus long promoted by the Christian church, which he doesn’t like. Not “manly enough” (by worldly standards), and therefore “too feminine”. So, consistent with his technique to repel his followers from what he doesn’t like, first he super-feminizes the Jesus of traditional Christendom, then fabricates the polar opposite of that extreme. Driscoll’s superhero “jesus” is a “punch you in the nose dude”, a “prizefighter” with a tatoo on His leg, who along with his “posse” (His disciples) got invited to lots of parties. So, consistent with such a worldly jesus, why wouldn’t Driscoll’s jesus be a D.J.? Problem is, such a wordly “jesus” is just as erroneous and unbiblical as the “feminine jesus” Driscoll is so antagonistic toward. Thus who Driscoll preaches as the “true Jesus” is not the Jesus Who is described in the whole of Scripture, but is a fabricated, reactionary version of the one he was raised to believe in, but doesn’t like. And so in his attempts to re-image “jesus” to be the person he wants him to be, Driscoll has repeatedly mocked and blasphemed Jesus again and again, in word and image, to deconstruct the “old” mental image of Jesus and open the door for his new meekless, unholy, worldly “jesus”.

  53. I am a born again Christian, and I happen to be a DJ as well! so since I have the Holy Spirit living inside of me, it is sorta like Jesus being a DJ. Furthermore, short of profanity/nudity, it really doesn’t matter what we wear! Really! From what I read in scripture, God is infinetly more concerned with our character and our hearts, than what we put on the outside of our wreched flesh. That being said, I don’t always agree with Driscoll, but the above clip is spot on, I believe in Jesus… and Jesus said “…Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees…” Mat 16:6. If you are going to judge a pastor I believe it should be on the content of his message and not the clothes on his back. Would you have judged John the baptist because of his attire?

  54. Dear Ken,

    You said:

    “If you are going to judge a pastor I believe it should be on the content of his message and not the clothes on his back.”

    We have done that. And he is found wanting. Type Mark Driscoll into DefCon’s search engine to see that we have indeed judged (as well as others, and rightly so) his messages.

  55. Pilgrim & Ken,

    scripture food for thought:

    1 cor 9:26-27:
    “26 So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. 27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.”

    Driscoll’s behavior, attitude, dress, the way he represents himself disqualifies himself very often.

    1 Tim 3:1-2
    “The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach…sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable…”

    He definitely struggles with this basic qualifications of an elder…above reproach? not so much, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable? Hmmm…

    1 tim 4:12-16
    “12Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. 13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching. … 16 Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.”

    Again, i see serious problems here and the way represents himself…example in speech? Nope. conduct? nope. keeping a close watch on his own teaching? nope.

    These are just a few reasons why conduct, appearance, actions, are just as important as what is preached…which has obviously has been covered by this blog in great detail.

  56. @abidingthroughgrace & Pilgrim …I agree for the most part, I’ve listened to a few of Driscoll ‘s messages and I was not impressed, as well as some pastors I know have told me some stories about his behavior toward the congregation. I am not defending Driscoll, but I am defending the t-shirt, I came across this blog while looking for the shirt….because I happen to be a Christian DJ who uses turntables.
    I personally attend a Calvary Chapel as my home church; I just like to listen to some reformed preachers (besides Driscoll) from time to tme, but I consider myself a desciple of Francis Chan mostly.
    So setting Driscoll aside, (the shirt itself), is it dishonoring the Saviour? I personally don’t think so. There are plenty of other christian (turntable) DJs who I believe would feel the same way. So on the issue of being respectful/respectable, I go back to the example of John the baptist, his attire was not the social norm and might have even offended some people, but his message was from God. So if seeing somebody with a “Jesus is my homeboy” or the Jesus DJ shirt causes “church people” who occupy church buildings, steaped in traditions, hypocracy, pride, and self-rightousness to get their panties in a bunch… than GOOD:)

    _________________________________________________

    a correction to my last post… I am a disciple of Jesus Christ, who just happens to follow the teachings of Francis Chan, and a few others (but not Driscoll)… incase anybody misinterpreted, but hopefully you knew what I meant. God Bless.

  57. Dear Ken:

    I recommended you review this blog’s stance on Driscoll in response to your remark:

    “If you are going to judge a pastor I believe it should be on the content of his message and not the clothes on his back.”


    I was merely answering your charge that we were unfairly judging Driscoll on one item (namely his shirt).

    Additionally, your math is kind of fuzzy.
    You have Jesus in you + You’re a DJ = Depicting our Lord and Savior spinning wax on the turntables is acceptable.

    Isn’t that a stretch? Where do you draw the line in depicting our Lord? Using your math, would you be ok if the Christian plumber had a picture on his shirt of our Lord fixing a toilet? I could cite further examples but I will not further entertain such things.

    And how in the world do you equate John the Baptist being clothed with camel hair to Jesus being depicted as a DJ? The comparison completely escapes me. One wore clothing of camel hair, one is of a t-shirt that minimizes (and yes, mocks) our Lord.

    If you see no problem with how the holy Son of God that was slain to redeem you from your sin is depicted on the shirt, then I suggest that your view of Him is too low. Perhaps reading Isaiah’s depiction of our Lord (in Isaiah) or John’s depiction of the Lamb on the throne (in Revelation) would cure that. It certainly did for me.

    Respectfully,
    – Pilgrim

  58. There is a difference between you, the christian DJ and Mark Driscoll, the man called by God to represent Himself to his sheep and who is to be above reproach. What may be excusable or acceptable by some for the average Christian is not the same standard to which the pastor is held in regard to being above reproach and respectable. However, the gap certainly isn’t much. The only difference would be that the average christian may be working through respectability issues in their own sanctification and walk and will be growing out of that and towards Christlike behavior. Our example is Christ and not John the Baptist. even still, John the baptist did not wear anything belittling the all powerful sovereign, holy, perfect, and infinite God…he was simply not caught up with being “cool” and fitting in…he was about the business of God and preparing the way for the coming Savior. There is no comparison.

    your quote above disturbs me greatly (cut and pasted here):

    “…So on the issue of being respectful/respectable, I go back to the example of John the baptist, his attire was not the social norm and might have even offended some people, but his message was from God. So if seeing somebody with a “Jesus is my homeboy” or the Jesus DJ shirt causes “church people” who occupy church buildings, steaped in traditions, hypocracy, pride, and self-rightousness to get their panties in a bunch… than GOOD:)”

    Ok, soooo, the church people you mentioned (hypocrites, prideful, self-righteous) are rotten sinners in need of repentance. they are as far from God as any on else. My heart breaks for self-righteous and prideful church goers who don’t see Christ for who he is and who don’t live out their faith as Christ did. I’m with you on that. What I’m not able to accept is the idea that something irreverent and belittling to God, that spits in the face of the Holy and righteous King of Glory is cool because it upsets stuffy church folk. Wear that T-shirt in this setting and see how that goes over:

    “1 In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one called to another and said:“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!” 4 And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. 5 And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!” 6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a burning coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for.”

    You see, Isaiah saw his sinfulness when he came face to face with the living God. He cried out, “Woe is me!!! for i am a man of unclean lips!” Isaiah thought he was going to DIE right there because of his sin. So, I ask, can you wear that T-Shirt in the temple with the King of Kings sitting on the throne and give him the ‘hang loose’ sign or give him a “wass up?”

    I think not. I think you’d rip that T-shirt from your chest and try to bury your face in the ground because He is soooooooo Holy and sooooooooo Perfect and WE are soooooooooo sinful in his presence. I pray that none of us will be cheaky or casual with Christ. I pray that none of us will treat Christ as our “home-boy”. But instead I pray that we will all treat Christ in a way that honors his suffering sacrifice and death on that cross for the sins we have committed. Amen?

  59. Amen again! Christ is holy and He needs to be treated as such! You who think these shirts are okay are of depraved mind. Repent you hypocrites for you know not Christ!

    Romans 1:18-32 KJV

    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, (23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: (25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. (26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: (27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. (28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; (29) Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, (30) Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, (31) Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: (32) Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

  60. Dearest Brothers: Pilgram, abidingthroughgrace, and TCW,

    Thank you for heartfelt responses, especially TCW(slight sarcasm) but seriously, believe it or not, I am quite familiar with Isaiah 6, Revalation 4, Romans 1 and many other parts of the bible that reference the Holiness of God, the Fear of God, and the Wrath of Almighty God, and they are hugely important in establishing a biblical view of God, BUT those aspects are not the whole story, and they do not represent a full spectrum biblical view of the Triune God….(if you limit your view of God to just those aspects you might as well worship the muslim Alah). The truth is that an exegetical view of God includes ALL of His atributes, primarily the gospel of Grace.
    -Short testimony-

    I AM a US Army veteran, ex-rave DJ,ex-drug addict, ex-drug dealer, ex-meth cook, who is responsible for five abortions; and by the grace of God, am now a devoted father, husband, brother, friend, college student studying IT, and dedicated follower of Jesus Christ who got saved in jail while awaiting a nine year prison sentence for manufacturing meth (I got five years probation)….I do not deserve the life that I lead now, and I deserve to go straight to hell when I die…(have you heard of Total Depravity?) well it was very easy for me to realize that truth.
    Soooo that being said, lets get into some commentary…

    Brother Pilgrim- My math is pretty simple, the Spirit of God lives inside us(period). So no I don’t think it is that far of a stretch to say “we are the image of God to the world” -2 Corinthians 3:3 [clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart]…. So whatever occupation you happen to find yourself, Christ is there, be it DJing, plumbing, or how about CARPENTRY (would an image of Christ building something with wood be too lowly for the Lord of Glory?), or dare I put an image of the King of Kings girding himself and washing His desciples feet? Part of completely amazing beauty of the Gospel, is the truth that God Is involved in our everyday lives. Hebrews 4:15-16 [For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.]

    Brother(presumably) abidingthroughgrace- Isaiah 64:6 [But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away] so regaurdless of what attire you might believe is more or less pleasing to God; without the Gospel of Grace, it is all gonna burn. Not to discount Romans 6:1 either, but I truly dont believe changing our attire is a surefire sign of our sanctification, especially if we are desiring to reach the lost. In fact, wouldnt you agree that desiring to reach the lost is more of a fruit than wearing a button up shirt?

    And Brother TCW-Seriously? Because I’m okay with some (debatably blasphemous)t-shirts, you pull Romans 1 on me? and I know not Christ? behold the power of God…I also follow the teachings of Paul Washer (just to give you an idea of my theology).. how about Galatians 6:1 [Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted] or 1 Cor 10:12 [Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.]

    May the God of our salvation richly bless all of you.

    Oh and -abidingthroughgrace- I put (presumably) next to your title concerning your gender not anything derogatory.

    God Bless.

  61. Ken:

    I can’t argue with much of what you said . . . except in regards to the issue at hand. :o)

    I agree with almost everything you said except when you tried to fit the square peg in the round hole.

    I rejoice in God’s mercy and grace being bestowed upon sinners such as you and I, but displaying our Lord in any manner in which it minimizes who and what He is (as any image really does) is dangerous, and even more so when that image is of something that belittles, ridicules, or mocks Him (whether or not you or anyone else believes that it does not).

    It’s about what God accepts, Ken, and I can’t help but believe this is precisely why God commanded that we make no images of Him, because how can man even begin to formulate in his mind an image of the Triune God (whose very presence causes man to fall before Him and tremble) and then reduce that imagined image onto a t-shirt depicting Him playing music in an implied format or setting in which sin is commonplace and ever present at such events where DJs are employed, whether they be parties, raves, clubs, etc? The vast majority of these events (which I’m certain you will agree) are known for being fertile grounds for immorality and which are rampant with sin and sinful behavior. Carpentry is not commonly synonymous with drugs and sex as venues with DJs are (again you attempted to make your case by comparing apples with oranges).

    Years ago, I was a false convert (the kind Paul Washer frequently warns about) in which I repeated a prayer and although I began going to church, my life did not reflect a true conversion. I would have also been the one to probably wear this DJ shirt thinking it was cool, but it wasn’t long ago that God changed me (I didn’t save myself; that total depravity thing kept getting in the way of my self-improvement) and then the things I thought were cool or acceptable merely because they were sold in a Christian bookstore or had the label “Christian” smacked on them were now seen through the lens of His Word which revealed who God is, His holiness, and His worthiness to be worshiped.

    You may try to divorce His holiness, His wrath, and our fear of Him from His attributes of love, mercy, and grace, but just as you said to us that if we limited our view of God to just those harder aspects then “we might as well worship the Muslim Alah,” I say to you that if you exclude those harder attributes of Him you might as well worship the god of Joel Osteen, Rick Warren, Robert Schuller.

    None of God’s attributes should/can be excluded, so to say (or imply) that God’s love, grace, and mercy give license to depict an image of Him in such a way as a hip, cool, and relevant DJ which is synonymous with worldly sinful indulgent parties, is to directly exclude His attributes of holiness, wrath, judgment, and our fear of Him.

    This, Ken, is where we will have to agree to disagree, and I pray that you will continue to seek more knowledge of God and more understanding in this subject. Pray that He reveals to you the truth about this matter (as I will also pray for you) and really consider what abidingthroughgrace said to you as well, and ask yourself if you really think you can stand before God’s throne with the angels surrounding Him singing Holy, Holy, Holy, for eternity while you’re wearing a t-shirt depicting an image of His Son whom He sacrificed for your sin on a cruel Roman cross, spinning wax.

    In this matter, Ken, I urge you to consider erring on the side of God’s holiness.

    Sincerely,
    - Pilgrim

    P.S. Check out the two-part sermon on the subject of Christ’s holiness and worthiness on this previous DefCon post, I think you’ll really like it and benefit from it.

  62. Ken, thank you for a well thought out and great response. I am glad to hear your testimony…you are a testament to God’s infinite grace and mercy. thank you for sharing that. btw…you are correct to assume we are brothers (no offense taken). Pilgrim also had a great response this morning and i am thankful for him.

    I wanted to clarify something based on your comments. My reply was strictly based on the T-shirt with Jesus spinning records like some hip-hop party guy…plus it is a weird sort of catholic image mixed with this party scene. its weird…and i’m confused by it. My comments are directed completely and 100% at that irreverant image being worn by a Christian. – side bar here:

    - ** please note that i couldn’t care less what any christian wears as long as it is humble, modest, and god glorifying. the issue isn’t that someone wears a t-shirt. i often wear jeans to church. i often wear t-shirts. attire isn’t something to be self-righteous about or to condemn others. some can’t afford fancy clothes and may come to church in a t-shirt. praise God! sit in your t-shirt and hear the word and minister and serve others and proclaim the gospel! who cares, right? just don’t show up in revealing sexy clothes that make men or women stumble and lust, and don’t show up in a $5,ooo suit with diamond cufflinks because it isn’t humble. you know what i mean? ** -

    So specifically regading this DJ record spinning image…it is offensive to the living God who has Died for us. He took nails pounded into his wrist and feet and hung on that cross. pound by nails for us! for us! he did this because he loves us. He paid an infinite price for a sinful race and he made us his possession though the cross. as he hung in misery to took all the wrath of God for all the sins of the elect. God unleashed the holy infinite wrath for sins over centuries and Christ took it! He took it for us!

    i know you know this…i can hear it in your testimony. You know he did this for our sins. shouldn’t we then love him back and treat him with the utmost respect? Shouldn’t we be appalled by an image that mocks the Christ who died for us? should we be appalled by anyone or anything that makes light of Christ?

    You can be all things to all people by going into the club and spinning records and witnessing to lost sinners. you can be loving and open and accepting of sinners in their environment and gain trust without belittling Christ with an insulting image of him on your chest. We are not making Christ all things to all people (i.e. dj, plumber, carpenter, prostitute…maybe there should be shirts with Jesus in fishnet stockings on a street corner…NOT!) We are to be all things to all people so that we can introduce them to CHRIST! as he is!! amen? We are to show them how Christ is holy, perfect, loving, and he died for us. We show them who Christ really is not show them some image of Christ in their particular life style.

    I hope that makes sense. I’m not trying to beat up on you brother, I truly just want to inspire to hold ourselves to a high standard and to represent Christ for who he is. We – you and I and pilgrim and others – we are all ambassors of Christ and we are citizens of another place…we should be awkward in this world. We shouldn’t fit in. we should be different because we are not from here. we are of a new place and a new family.

    In love as brothers in the unified body of Christ under our head, the living son of God, Jesus Christ.

    abidingthroughgrace

  63. I know this is a very old post, but someone might be interested in this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfBjNwglOOI

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