We here at DefCon frequently receive questions in the comboxes of our various threads. Sometimes the questions are very sincere and well thought out, and other times…well…maybe not so much. But in our continued interest in sharing the truth from a Biblical viewpoint we hereby inaugurate a new category that shall be called “DefCon Q&A”.
The purpose of this category will be to deal Biblically with various theological questions posed by DefCon’s readership. The first installment in this series will consist of a discussion on the doctrine of Limited Atonement posed by theloveiknow.
It’s my earnest prayer that our dear readers will be edified by this series.
theloveiknow said: I have one question that has troubled me for along time. Did Christ die for some or for all? I know salvation is in Christ alone. I am writting this question in hope to find understanding. I wish to find the wisdom of others in this matter. Please answer if you can.
This is a very important question and a correct, Biblical answer will shape our entire view of soteriology and our concept of missions/evangelism. Because of the gravity of this inquiry I believe that a detailed response is required, therefore please let me apologize in advance for my lack of brevity.
But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. (Psalm 115:3)
The One True and Living God as He has revealed Himself within the Holy Bible is completely sovereign. He rules and reigns by His own counsel and perfect will alone and does “whatsoever he hath pleased”.
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. (James 1:17)
God never changes His mind. He is eternally the same in character, attributes and absolute perfection of Being. He has always been eternally omniscient and this perfect attribute of knowledge is perfectly complemented by His perfect attribute of omnipotence. By his perfect knowledge and perfect power He sovereignly controls and guides all things. Nothing that happens can happen apart from God’s infinitely perfect and inscrutable will.
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! (Romans 11:33)
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:9)
These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes. (Psalm 50:21)
God’s counsel is always just and perfect because it is His counsel. In other words God doesn’t do something because it’s just, or fair, or right, but rather a thing is just, fair, and right because God does it. The entire moral order of the universe is a reflection of God’s holiness whereas the immoral order is a perversion and a sinful abomination of Him which thing He hates with a perfect hatred.
It is because of His holy nature that God must take fiery vengeance against all forms of sin and trespass.
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (Romans 3:10)
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (Romans 3:23)
To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:15)
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5:12)
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9)
“Let no man deceive you with vain words because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the sons of disobedience.” (Ephesians 5:6)
“Thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity.” (Hebrews 1:9)
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness.” (Romans 1:18)
All mankind stands guilty before God and all mankind was judged guilty and worthy of eternal death at the fall in the federal head of our race, Adam.
Listen to what Jesus said in His High Priestly Prayer in John 17:9; I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. Christ specifically states that he was not praying for the world, but for a specific group, those the Father had given to Him. So who was in view in this prayer? Who are those the Father had given to Christ?
We find the answer further along in the selfsame prayer: “Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Christ was interceding with the Father on behalf of His apostles and “them which shall believe on me through their word”. At this point we can already see that Jesus did not pray for everyone in general because all men in general don’t believe on Christ through the word of the apostles as we have it recorded today in the New Testament.
There is no salvation apart from the eternal Gospel of Jesus Christ.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! (Romans 10:14-15)
The way these questions are structured in the text demands a universally negative response – they can’t.
They are unable.
It is impossible.
In John 6:44 Christ announces yet another universal negative upon all mankind’s inherent ability to come unto Him: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. How many men? No man. Now we have another question we must answer – how does the Father draw men unto Christ? The inspired Apostle Paul gives us clarification in Romans 10:17; So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God
True saving faith comes by hearing the word of God.
But let’s go back for a moment to John 6:44, Christ makes an absolute statement of fact that no man can come to Him except the Father draw him AND – this is critical – Christ continues in His thought by emphatically and universally stating that those who the Father draws WILL BE RAISED UP AT THE LAST DAY!
This is a spiritual reality.
This is a statement of absolute fact by Jesus Christ Himself – those who are drawn by the Father WILL come to Christ and Christ WILL raise them up at the last day.
This spiritual reality cannot be reconciled with the concept that God is actually and really drawing all men at all times to Christ like a radio signal or a spiritual APB unless we’re willing to admit to universalism and embrace the belief that ultimately all humanity will be saved. Such a concept is completely antithetical to Biblical Christianity.
All that remains Biblically is that God has decided in His perfect knowledge and according to His perfect will who will be saved and therefore they will be saved, and He has decided who He will pass over and leave in their sins and trespasses and therefore they will be damned.
In general people don’t like this teaching because they tend to think that it’s “unfair” or worse, that it makes God unfair, or capricious, or an unjust judge – God forbid! As we’ve already noted God cannot be unjust because He is the very standard of justice. We can only accept what the scriptures teach and submit ourselves to its teaching. The inspired apostle Paul anticipated by the Holy Spirit these very kinds of objections in Romans 9:
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (Romans 9:11-21)
God is the ultimate “decider” in matters of salvation, not sinful, fallen men.
The scriptures do contain many verses which many interpret to mean that Christ came and died in order to save the whole world. Of course entire books have been written on this subject and I’m under no delusions that they can receive a proper treatment in a blog combox, but here are a couple of examples:
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:29)
And again:
“and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.” (1 John 2:2)
First let me emphatically state that I utterly reject universalism. Everyone will not be saved and the scriptures couldn’t be more clear and consistent on this point. Only some will be saved.
All Bible believing Christians must agree that the atonement of Jesus Christ is limited in some way. Reformed Christians affirm that Christ’s atonement is limited to the elect who were predestined before the foundations of the world to be in Christ, and most non-Reformed Christians typically believe that Christ’s atonement is limited to those who place saving faith in Jesus Christ and make a “decision” for Him or otherwise “accept” Him as Lord and Savior. In both cases Christ’s atonement is limited to a particular group.
In the light of the whole counsel of God I believe that the use of the word world in John 1:29 and whole world 1 John 2:2 do not refer to the entire world of humanity (i.e. all mankind), just as I don’t believe the High Priest Caiaphas was referring to the entire world of humanity in John 11:45-52 (similarly see also Acts 17:6).
It’s imperative that believers compare scripture with scripture and consider the whole counsel of God when interpreting the Bible. With this in mind it’s my well considered opinion that John 1:29 and 1 John 2:2 refer primarily to:
A) John 1:29 – The non-Jewish “world”: The Jews of Christ’s day believed they were racially and ethnically in relationship to God as opposed to understanding they must be spiritually related to Him. With this worldview in mind it would have been important for the Jewish hearers and readers of the day to understand that Christ the Messiah didn’t come only for ethnic Jews, but for “the whole world” (i.e. non-Jews as well). Ethnic Israel of Christ’s day deeply loathed and disdained the Gentile nations considering them to be outside Israel’s covenants with God and therefore without hope, abiding under God’s curse.
The Jews of Christ’s day needed to come to grips with the spiritual reality that Messiah came for BOTHIsrael and the “world” (non-Israel) equally. As we can recall many Jews were appalled by Christ’s ministry to Gentiles and even the apostle Peter struggled with this new spiritual reality and was openly rebuked by Paul for his tacit enablement of some of the Judaizers.
B) 1 John 2:2 – The “whole world” with every kingdom, tribe, tongue and nation in view: God’s Word promises that heaven will be populated by “all kinds” of humanity from “the whole world” which includes men from every kingdom, tribe, tongue and nation (Revelation 5:9-10). The “whole world” will be represented in heaven in the saints, but the “whole world” – meaning every human being who ever lived – certainly won’t be in heaven and therefore clearly won’t be forgiven of their sins, only those who would believe throughout the “whole world” are truly saved.
In my mind in the light of scripture what this subject ultimately comes down to is the extent of Christ’s atonement on the cross. Christ’s atonement was perfect and complete. He couldn’t have suffered more or less than He did on the cross. His sacrifice was infinite because of God’s infinite nature even one sin or trespass against Him is worthy of infinite, eternal punishment.
Yet if it is our position that Christ’s atonement on the cross is equally extended to everyone who ever lived, then according to Jesus in John 6:44 we are forced to conclude that everyone who ever lived must be saved, or else Jesus Christ was a failure of cosmic proportions and a liar because He claimed that He would raise up at the last day all the Father had drawn to Him. If the Father is drawing all humanity then all humanity must be raised up by Christ at the last day. This is universalism and is unbiblical.
What remains then is that Christ’s atonement was limited in some way to some particular group that He had in view upon the cross (and indeed before the foundations of the world). I believe that the Bible teaches that particular group is God’s elect who He predestined in eternity past to come to Him by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone. The Father draws, the Son saves and the Spirit sanctifies. The thrice holy Triune One True and Living God works according to His own good will, pleasure and counsel to perfectly and infallibly secure the salvation of the elect.
And lest we feel too hasty to balk and claim unfairness at this point we must remember that God isn’t nor can He be unfair. He is Holy, Holy, Holy.
Was God unfair to choose only Noah and his seven family members to save from the flood while drowning everyone else in the world? Was God obliged to offer a ride on the ark to everyone in the whole world before He could begin the flood?
Was God unfair for choosing only Abraham of Ur from the entire world (and no one else) in order to enter into a covenant relationship with Himself and thereby become a father of many nations?
Was God unfair to send an angel to take only Lot and his family out of the miry pit of Sodom and Gomorrah before He annihilated it to ashes?
Was God unfair to raise up only Israel to be His covenant people while rejecting all the rest of humanity? Were the animal sacrifices of Israel and the annual sin offering of the High Priest on behalf of Israel effective for the sins of the whole world? Was it unfair for the rest of the world to wallow in sin and death outside of God’s covenant relationship with Israel?
Biblically speaking the answer to all of these questions must be an emphatic “NO”.
Only God is just and all that He does is perfect and the same spiritual reality is true of the church today. God alone is calling out a peculiar people for Himself, a remnant that is being added to the Body, the spotless Bride of Christ who will be one shining day be presented to the Son by the Father, as an eternal love gift for His faithfulness.
Human salvation is all of God and all of grace and is to the praise of His glory alone. God covenanted with Himself before the foundations of the world to show His grace to a portion of an undeserving, sinful, fallen race of creatures because of the outflow and overflow of His boundless oceans of grace, mercy, pity and love. Ultimately He bestows this unspeakable gift upon only a select group of humanity, the ekklesia, the called out ones, the church and upon the rest he heaps His eternal contempt and abiding wrath.
Please understand that I’m not pretending to have all the answers here, my grasp of these deep and mysterious truths is feeble and tenuous, but I can nevertheless see that they are clearly taught in the Word of God and therefore I submit my understanding to God’s revealed truth and cling to them desperately because I know that they are the Words of life.
May the Lamb that was slain receive the reward of His suffering.
In Christ,
CD
This is very interesting. It’s something I’ve thought about more recently. I’ve always understood that Jesus took upon the sin of every person. Someone even told me that since every person’s sin is paid for, the ones who reject Christ are condemned only for their rejection of Him, not because they died in their sins. (I haven’t studied that out yet.) Anyways, my question is this: If Jesus’ atonement was limited to the elect, how do you witness to the unsaved in this way? I use the WOTM approach a lot and I say how Jesus was the substitutionary sacrifice for their sins. But if atonement is limited, I could actually be lying to these people by telling them that Jesus died for their sins if they aren’t one of the elect. I am not trying to challenge in any way, I’m just curious. Thanks so much!
Very good post! I enjoyed it and it is very timely as I have just begun a Bible Study with a small group of people discussing this very thing.
Thanks for the encouragement Ptr. Bryan!
blastedbylove,
Our command is to preach the gospel to all men without exception. No one but God knows who the elect are, therefore the external call of the gospel goes out indiscriminately to all. All men everywhere are commanded to repent. There’s no deceit in being obedient to the Great Commission.
I’m assuming that if you’re using the WOTM and you’re telling folks that Jesus died for their sins that you are following that proclamation with something conditional to the effect of “if you believe” or “if you trust in Him” or something similar, correct?
In other words no gospel presentation would be complete if one were simply walk up to a perfect stranger on the street and tell him that Jesus died for his sins and took his place on the cross and now he gets to go to heaven instead of hell and then simply turn and walk away, amen? This would certainly be lying assuming you randomly picked an unbeliever.
You might find this article informative.
In Christ,
CD
P.S. – Have you purchased The Gospel According to Jesus yet?
CD,
Thanks for your response. Yes, I do explain the conditions of salvation and I see your point about the stranger. I’ll have to read the article tomorrow… I have to get some sleep! Thank you for answering my questions. It seems I have a lot more questions than answers these days but I love plumbing the depths of the Word! I can’t afford to get a copy of that book right now and the library doesn’t carry it. As soon as my finances are less tight, I will get it. Thanks so much!
Hi C D,
God is just and perfect in all His judgements. Praise be to His Name forever!
You are correct, it is not about “being fair”, we have not the wisdom or the perspective that God does.
Two things, (for starters)
1. Jn 6:44… Where do you get this “fact” that those drawn by the Father will come to Him?
The fact is that those who do come to Him with a real faith will have been drawn by the Father and He will raise -them- up on the last day. Not every one responds to the preaching of the word.
It is not universalism, not everyone is saved.
Gods choosing of Noah was determined by Noahs obedience to God, Gen6:8, thats why Noah found grace, and his family, and why the rest were destroyed in the flood.
God chose Israel, yet not all Israel made it to the promised
land, but perished for their unbelief. Heb 3:18
God was at all times drawing all of Israel to Himself, but only the remnant found grace. why, because they believed, they obeyed, a theme echoed thru out the scriptures.
2.Jesus work on the cross was indeed totally complete, that
“whosoever believeth in Him should not perish,…”
Therefore we preach, as Gods voice to all men proclaiming the good news. Rom10:18.
Gods love and His grace is available to anyone who will humble themselves and repent of their sins and believe in the saving work of the Lord JesusChrist. Is 66:2 Jn 3:16, 2Pet3:9, Act 2:21, etc…
But alas, not all who are drawn heed the call, for many be called, but few chosen.
In Him,
Keith
PS, I have read the Gospel According to Jesus and thoroughly enjoyed it.
I had been thinking on these same lines a few months ago. My question is: If Jesus did not die for the “whole” world (I understand and agree with your post) then how would every knee bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD?
Keith,
You asked: Jn 6:44… Where do you get this “fact” that those drawn by the Father will come to Him?
Basically just from the text itself, Keith:
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Q. How many men can (i.e. are able to) come to Christ except the Father draw him?
A. “No man”
This is pretty a pretty straightforward and uncomplicated statement from Jesus Christ that He applies universally to all mankind.
Happily there’s an exception to the “no man” clause and that is “EXCEPT the Father which hath sent me draw him”.
Okay, first Jesus Christ makes a blanket, universal statement of inability proclaiming that NO MAN can come to him (this is really bad news). But then He graciously proceeds to an exception to the “no man” clause when He says “except the Father which hath sent me draw him” (this is really good news).
And then Jesus proceeds to apply yet another astounding universal statement proclaiming that those “exceptions” to the “no man” clause who are drawn by the Father WILL be raised up by Him (Christ) at the last day: and I will raise him up at the last day.
This is an absolute statement of fact. Jesus doesn’t say that He will consider raising him up at the last day, or that there’s a really strong probability so long as certain pre-conditions are met, nope, He says He WILL raise him (the exception drawn by the Father) up at the last day.
This is the greatest news anyone has ever heard. If a human soul is drawn by the Father then that human soul will come to Christ and Christ will raise him up at the last day. Salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. This is Biblical Christianity.
You’re right that it isn’t universalism since only those drawn by the Father (the elect) will receive divine mercy and come to Christ and everyone else (the non-elect) will continue in their trespass and sin and receive divine justice and be condemned.
You said: The fact is that those who do come to Him with a real faith will have been drawn by the Father and He will raise -them- up on the last day. Not every one responds to the preaching of the word.
Correct. As the scriptures teach only the elect will come to Christ with genuine faith having been drawn by the Father and therefore Christ will raise them up on the last day. Not everyone responds to the preaching of the Word, only the elect respond because only they are drawn by the Father.
You said: It is not universalism, not everyone is saved.
Correct, only those drawn by the Father to Christ are saved, the elect.
You said: Gods choosing of Noah was determined by Noahs obedience to God, Gen6:8, thats why Noah found grace, and his family, and why the rest were destroyed in the flood.
Wow! Noah earned God’s grace by his works?!? By taking this position is it correct then to say that you believe God’s grace is merited (earned) by man’s efforts (works)? This goes against everything taught about grace in the Bible. The scriptures couldn’t be more clear or consistent on this point: namely that grace is a gift.
All the passage says is that Noah found grace in God’s eyes, period. In this instance you’re adding to and twisting scripture by claiming that God’s grace is dependent upon any sinful man’s “obedience”. This is a satanic lie from the pit of hell and I fear that if you have believed this lie then you’ve been duped by the enemy. In point of fact this is the bitter wellspring from whence all the cults of Christianity originate.
You said: God chose Israel, yet not all Israel made it to the promised land, but perished for their unbelief. Heb 3:18.
Exactly. And shouldn’t this tell us something about those who claim to be Christians? Everyone within ethnic Israel was not truly Israel (spiritual Israel, God’s true remnant) just as everyone who participates within the broader professing visible church is not truly part of the Body of Christ, the true church invisible (see tares/wheat, goats/sheep).
You said: God was at all times drawing all of Israel to Himself, but only the remnant found grace. why, because they believed, they obeyed, a theme echoed thru out the scriptures.
There you go tying God’s grace to sinful man’s obedience again. This is a demonic lie, Keith. Grace is utterly and completely apart from works (Romans 11:6) and you’re guilty of undermining God’s Word by persisting in this gross error. Please repent of this damnable lie and flee from it.
Yet even with this in mind we can still clearly see that only a remnant mercifully received unmerited grace – no one earns grace or merits grace from God by good works as you’re falsely claiming or else it’s no longer grace (Romans 11:6) – but I need to see some scripture to support your claim that “God was at all times drawing all of Israel to Himself”. Where do you get this strange belief? Chapter and verse would be great, thanks.
You said: Jesus work on the cross was indeed totally complete, that “whosoever believeth in Him should not perish,…” Therefore we preach, as Gods voice to all men proclaiming the good news. Rom10:18.
Amen! Christ’s cross-work is lacking nothing, He suffered perfectly and completely and fully satisfied His Father’s holy wrath and whosoever believes will certainly not perish. And the Triune One True and Living God determined before the foundations of the world those who would constitute the “whosoever” and He predestined them to divine election ensuring that Christ’s cross-work would be 100% effective for all of those who are called to true repentance and salvation (Ephesians 1:4-6).
You said: Gods love and His grace is available to anyone who will humble themselves and repent of their sins and believe in the saving work of the Lord JesusChrist. Is 66:2 Jn 3:16, 2Pet3:9, Act 2:21, etc…
Amen! And all those “anyones” who humble themselves are the very same ones who are infallibly drawn by the Father to Christ whom He (Christ) promises to raise up at the last day in John 6:44, amazing grace!
You said: But alas, not all who are drawn heed the call, for many be called, but few chosen.
All who hear the external procamation of the Gospel won’t respond, but all who are drawn of the Father will heed the call and will come to Christ without fail. The external call of the gospel is to go out to all men without exception or distinction because all men everywhere are commanded to repent, but few are chosen (elected) to actually receive the inward call of the Spirit, being thereby infallibly drawn by the Father to the Son.
We don’t know who the elect are so we must faithfully preach the Gospel to everyone with the full assurance that God Almighty will infallibly save those He has chosen in Christ before the foundations of the world.
In Christ,
CD
You said: PS, I have read the Gospel According to Jesus and thoroughly enjoyed it. Me too! It’s one of my favorites.
Deb Mummert,
I believe the analysis below by Dr. John MacArthur will help shed some light upon your inquiry.
In Christ,
CD
1.Those in heaven
Those in heaven consists of two groups: the angels and the spirits of redeemed believers (who await the resurrection of their bodies). Those who are in heaven already acknowledge Jesus is Lord.
The angelic group consists of God’s holy, elect angels–the unfallen seraphim, cherubim, and myriads of other angels who worship God in heaven. The spirits of redeemed believers are the triumphant saints now in the presence of Christ–”the general assembly and church of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven … the spirits of righteous men made perfect” (Heb. 12:23). Throughout all their time in heaven they’ve been worshiping the Lord of glory.
a)The angels
Revelation 4 describes the worship of angels. In verses 2-3 we see God on His throne. Around the throne are twenty-four elders, before the throne are seven lamps, and in the center and around the throne are four living creatures (vv. 4-7). The living creatures cry out unceasingly, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come” (v. 8). That pictures the unending angelic worship of God (v. 9).
b)The redeemed
We see the worship of the redeemed in verses 10-11, where the twenty-four elders (who represent redeemed men) fall down before God and worship Him, saying, “Worthy art Thou, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for Thou didst create all things, and because of Thy will they existed, and were created.”
2.Those on earth
a)The obedient
“Those … on earth” (Phil. 2:10) refers to us. As believers we submit to Christ as Lord and Savior (by God’s wonderful grace). We have followed the pattern of Romans 10:9: “If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.” The lordship of Christ and His resurrection are connected because the resurrection was the first step in the exaltation of Christ as Lord.
b)The disobedient
The disobedient on earth will also bow before Jesus Christ, but by compulsion. Second Thessalonians 1:7-9 says, “When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, [He will deal out retribution] to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.”
When Jesus returns to subdue the earth He will remove the wicked from the earth, cast them into hell, and establish His kingdom. His kingdom will consist of His own people–the sheep of Matthew 25:31-40. The goats of Matthew 25:31-46 will also bow to His lordship, but then be destroyed in “the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41).
3.Those under the earth
“Under the earth” refers to hell, the place of eternal punishment, which is occupied by damned demons and men. They also will acknowledge the lordship of Christ–not by enjoying His reign, but by bearing the unending expression of His wrath. First Peter 3:18-22 indicates that while His dead body hung on the cross and then laid in His tomb, Christ’s spirit descended into the prison (hell–cf. 2 Pet. 2:4) where certain demons are bound. There He proclaimed His triumph over them.
As affirmed in Psalm 2, all the earth will be Christ’s (v. 8). Some will acknowledge Him as Lord willingly. Others will be broken with a rod of iron (v. 9). As Lord, Jesus will rule one way or another: by choice or by force.
C D,
Thank you for your response. Point for point, I am humbled.
And if I were propagating that damnable heresy; that man could earn Gods grace, then yes, I would do good to heed your advice to flee from anything resembling such a lie.
However, I was not saying Noah earned anything from God.
My apologies for not being a bit more clear.
God is absolutely sovreign. Is 43:13,etc. He has need of nothing.( A W Tozer- Knowledge of the Holy- is excellent in describing God in all His glorious attributes,)
Man, a created being, is sinful at his very core as it is his nature, Rom 3:23.
Ever since the sin of Adam God has been reaching out to sinful man. Gods first response to sin was mercy, in spite of Adam placing blame, God didn’t strike Adam in His wrath
but instead showed mercy providing sacrificially skins to cover the shame. Gen 3:21, and fortold of a future redeemer, Gen3:15.
Thus God has laid down the priciple of always at all times reaching out to sinful man. How could He not? Man is always going from God.Gen6:5.
But Noah, moved with fear, by faith, found grace, why? because the ‘eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout all the earth to show Himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward Him.” 2Chron16:9
Prov8, God personified as wisdom is calling out “O men” beseaching all who would listen, He loves those that love Him and rewards those who diligently seek Him, Heb6:11, in 2Pet3:9 Gods will is revealed and we see that it is His heart that ALL men should come to repentance.
In Is 1:16-20 , I know He is addressing Israel, but I don’t think it is too far a stretch that it is for all people in light of the whole counsel of God.
In Jn6:44 Jesus states a fact;”No man can come to Me except the Father… draw him.” There is no inference that all men drawn will continue with Jesus. Those who do, He raises up at the last day.
We love Him because He first loved us,!Jn4:19, again Jesus has chosen us, not us Him, no man can take any credit for coming to God, we are saved by grace through faith and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God. Eph2:8
and where cometh that grace? “Behold,the Lord’s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save;” thru the whole of chapter 59 Is, to v20 “and the redeemer shall come to Zion”
…in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Rom5:6
Gods grace is seeking all men all the time,Rev3:20
when a sinner responds to Gods grace- God is always the initiator. Always. But man is held respnsible in how he answers God. Mat7:26, God gives man the ability to say yes, and he has the light to see his own darkness,Jn1:9, that is why he is without excuse.Rom 1:20.
( He is free to choose, Gods love allows that. For true love is a choice. Agape. That is not a work of man but a work of God, Jn 6:29, to believe and then repent. Act2:38, and obey, Jn14:15.
This gets to the crux of the whole matter: free will; is there such an animal? How else to explain the origin of evil?
Lucifer chose to exalt himself above the Most High,Is14,
etc He then decieved Eve, Adam then chose to disobey the law of God and presto, sin enters in and we have evil.)
God has bent over backward (so to speak) doing everything He possiblebly could, going sofar as the incarnation in sinful flesh, Phi2. and being the perfect sacri-
fice in Jesus at calvary, that all a man has to do is step into that wonderful light by his repenting and believing, but step he must, for if he does not, he is already condemned.
Jn 3:18.
Is this a paradox? Welcome to the Christian Life.
When I made that choice,(in response to the grace of God)I had to humble myself, I had to repent, I had to count the cost, I had to pick up my cross, I had to deny myself, God did none of those things for me, but without God, I could not have done any of it, or even considered it.
Only by the empowerment of the HS can I do anything.
Can two walk unless they agree?
Thank you for your valuble time.
Complete in Him
Keith
*sigh*
I’m not sure if you realize it or not, but your response is quite contradictory and self-refuting, Keith. After reading and re-reading through your comments here it’s my well considered opinion that you hold to a semi-Pelagian/Arminian view of scripture.
For example:
First you say: However, I was not saying Noah earned anything from God.
Then you say: But Noah, moved with fear, by faith, found grace, why? because the ‘eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout all the earth to show Himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward Him.” 2Chron16:9
Which is it, Keith? Noah didn’t earn/merit anything from God, or Noah did earn/merit something from God? You’re presently claiming both and you can’t have it both ways.
In essence you are claiming that Noah “found grace” because he was “moved with fear” and by applying “faith” he somehow merited God to “show Himself strong” because Noah’s heart was “perfect toward Him”.
But the truth is that the heart is desperately wicked above all things. God must change man’s heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh before any man can ever be pleasing to God in any way whatsoever. This is because man is desperately wicked and depraved and dead in his sins and trespasses.
The only reason Noah got any notice from God is because God picked him for His own reasons and for His own glory, end of story. God chose Noah because God decided to choose Noah from out of His own good pleasure and infinite sovereign will alone, not for any intrinsic goodness that He saw that was in or ever could in Noah in and of himself. Any true righteous works that Noah ever could have performed were results of God’s grace, not results of Noah’s own righteousness. Good works can only flow from a heart that’s been miraculously transformed by God alone.
You said: God didn’t strike Adam in His wrath
Wrong.
God had already judged Adam prior to the fall should he partake of the forbidden fruit. In His omniscience God passed a death sentence on mankind for his yet future sin. Thou shalt surely die (Genesis 2:17) And as we’re all painfully aware, at the fall Adam died both physically and spiritually and passed the curse of sin and death to his children which thing extends to all of humanity apart from Christ Himself who was fully human (and fully God) but without sin.
You said: Thus God has laid down the priciple of always at all times reaching out to sinful man. I’m still waiting for some scripture to support this claim…will you be providing any?
You said: Prov8, God personified as wisdom is calling out “O men” beseaching all who would listen, He loves those that love Him and rewards those who diligently seek Him, Heb6:11 Those who listen and love Him and seek Him are those the Father draws to Christ, the elect. No one else is able to listen to, love, or seek Him.
In point of fact the Bible teaches such a thing is an utter impossibility because no flesh can please God and all men are naturally in the flesh and at enmity with God. Only those He supernaturally calls and regenerates from spiritual death unto spiritual life by His Spirit are miraculously enabled to come to Him, and all these will do so infallibly because Christ’s sacrifice was 100% effective and efficient to save 100% of those drawn to Him by the Father as He proclaims in John 6:44.
You said: 2Pet3:9 Gods will is revealed and we see that it is His heart that ALL men should come to repentance. If God willed all men to come to repentance then all men would come to repentance because, as you’ve correctly pointed out, God is completely sovereign and He decides who will be saved. God takes no pleasure in the punishment of the wicked, but they will be punished nonetheless because He is just.
2 Peter 3:9 is a passage about God’s divine patience in restraining His wrath and judgment until the fullness of the elect is drawn to salvation. This passage has no meaning or application whatsoever with respect to the repentance and/or salvation of “all men”, instead it’s about Christ’s Second Coming. Peter wrote this epistle to believers. Look back at 1 Peter 1:1 to see who the inspired Apostle is addressing in both 1 Peter and 2 Peter “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect. Who? The elect.
If you take this verse to really mean what you seem to want it to mean then you’re advocating universalism and I don’t think you want to go there. And if we really want to stretch the meaning of 2 Peter 3:9 to somehow shed light upon the salvation of men’s souls then what we will see is an amazing and loving display of God’s patience toward His elect in delaying Christ’s Second Coming until the fullness of His elect come to salvation so that “not any (of His elect) should perish but all (His elect) should come to repentance”. Amazing grace! This is the plain sense meaning of this passage which harmonizes perfectly with all the rest of scripture.
You said: In Is 1:16-20 , I know He is addressing Israel, but I don’t think it is too far a stretch that it is for all people in light of the whole counsel of God. Uh, there’s just one small problem here Keith, and that’s the fact that no man can actually do what God is commanding them to do in this passage. This is the type of scripture that is designed to drive God’s elect to their knees realizing they can’t meet His perfect standards, causing them by His Spirit to throw themselves upon His undeserved mercy. This is why Christ came. Everyone everywhere is commanded to repent and turn to Christ, but they won’t and they can’t apart from being regenerated by the Holy Spirit and drawn to Christ by the Father and according to scripture only the elect receive these divine benefits and no one else.
Sadly many perverse men – many of which claim to be “Christians” – are deluded by the wicked one and believe that they can actually do these things and perform these “good works” and therefore they’re found guilty of trying to earn God’s grace and favor by their sinful and corrupted works righteousness which things are an abomination to the Triune One True and Living God (Isaiah 64:6).
You said: In Jn6:44 Jesus states a fact;”No man can come to Me except the Father… draw him.” There is no inference that all men drawn will continue with Jesus. Those who do, He raises up at the last day.
What on earth are you talking about? “No inference that all men drawn will continue with Jesus”? Eh?
Jesus makes a plain statement of fact that ALL those drawn to Him by the Father WILL be raised up at the last day. This is an infallible, incontrovertible statement of fact, period, end of story. Christ will do exactly as He has said.
But there you go again twisting and adding to scripture and teaching demonic lies. Why are you calling Jesus Christ a liar, Keith? Jesus Christ said “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.“ Jesus Christ always keeps His Word.
The truth is that Jesus isn’t lying when He proclaims without conditions and without fail that THOSE WHO ARE DRAWN TO HIM (CHRIST) BY THE FATHER HE (CHRIST) WILL RAISE UP AT THE LAST DAY. Yet you are teaching contrary to Jesus’ own words Keith, and therefore you are guilty of undermining scripture. Stop lying, Keith. It’s wicked and it pleases the father of lies, Satan. Jesus will do as He’s said even if you and all the legions of hell deny it.
All those who are drawn by the Father will come to Christ and they will be raised up at the last day. This makes it patently clear that all who are truly drawn by the Father will absolutely and without fail continue with Him (Christ). This is the church invisible, the true Body and Bride of Christ. All the others within the broader visible professing church are false converts, liars, deceivers, ravening wolves in sheep’s clothing, hirelings, false shepherds, tares and goats which are sown into the church by the devil who will one day hear those dreadful words “DEPART FROM ME!”
You said: Gods grace is seeking all men all the time,Rev3:20 This passage has absolutely nothing, zip, zilch, nada to do with salvation. Jesus isn’t some pathetic little shivering figure pecking at the “door” to men’s hearts pleading for them to just open it so He can come inside…*ugh*…this is among the very worst abuses of scripture and I cringe every time I see it perverted in the manner you’ve done here.
This passage is referring to the Laodicean church and its lukewarm, putrid, gag-reflex-inducing spiritual condition. Christ is knocking on the door that the wicked, false, corrupted church has closed on Him in favor of their man centered, ear tickling, flesh pleasing traditions like most American churches today have done – yet He is still graciously admonishing the harlot church, exhorting her to repent.
You said: He is free to choose, Gods love allows that. For true love is a choice. Agape. That is not a work of man but a work of God, Jn 6:29, to believe and then repent. Act2:38, and obey, Jn14:15
Apart from being drawn by the Father to salvation in Christ man is free only to choose sin and trespass, and nothing else. So-called “free will” when the subject is “choosing” or “rejecting” salvation is a fantasy, a vapor, and a hoax that’s been perpetrated on the church by horrible, anti-christ, vain-traditions-of-men false teaching which doesn’t exist anywhere in scripture. The only men who can come to Christ are men who are drawn by the Father and thereby are miraculously enabled to come Christ by grace through faith and those men will all infallibly be raised up at the last day by Christ. This is what the scriptures consistently teach about salvation – it’s a gift, it’s a gift, it’s a gift.
You asked: This gets to the crux of the whole matter: free will; is there such an animal? See above.
Furthermore you asked: How else to explain the origin of evil? Lucifer chose to exalt himself above the Most High,Is14, etc He then decieved Eve, Adam then chose to disobey the law of God and presto, sin enters in and we have evil.) The Bible says iniquity was found in Satan, that’s enough for me to know. The Bible then says Adam and Eve disobeyed God and fell into sin, that’s enough for me to know.
But look at the amazing pattern we discover here! Men are able to “freely choose” what? Evil! Sin! Wickedness! Disobedience! Just as it is today. In their flesh men are free all right, they’re totally free to exercise their “free will” to choose evil and evil alone. This is why no flesh will be justified before God and this is why no human being can come to Christ apart from the divine drawing of the Father, because the natural will is to do evil continually and to flee from God.
God has bent over backward (so to speak) doing everything He possiblebly could This is just plain silly, Keith. I recommend you go back and re-read Tozer’s “Knowledge of the Holy” because I have that book and there’s no way that one could get this sort of horribly distorted and low view of God from Tozer or from the Holy Bible.
God isn’t “bending over backward” for sinful men, He’s patiently and lovingly seeking after and saving His own to the praise of His glory alone, and reserving eternal fiery torments for everyone else. The natural man always flees from the light, and it’s only because of God’s grace and out of His boundless oceans of pity, mercy and love that He chooses to spare some undeserving, unworthy sinners to become partakers of His kingdom and enjoy Him forever.
You said: When I made that choice,(in response to the grace of God)I had to humble myself, I had to repent, I had to count the cost, I had to pick up my cross, I had to deny myself, God did none of those things for me, but without God, I could not have done any of it, or even considered it.
Only by the empowerment of the HS can I do anything.
Instead of making your “choice” for God as you claim you did, could you instead have “chosen” against Him? Could you “choose” against Him now, or possibly later in your life? Could you fail to “continue with Him” at some point in your life? Do you have “free will” now to turn away from Christ if you so choose?
In Christ,
CD
C D,
At the top of this post you stated that the question posed by theloveiknow was important to the point that a correct
Biblical answer will shape our entire view of soteriology and our concept of missions/evangalism.
Exactly.
So I simply try to discuss your view on what the scriptures say, maybe even challenge how you get your conclusion,
and maybe I am even mistaken on my views, but for you to
accuse me of calling Jesus a liar, and twisting the scripture
is uncalled for.
Some Christians believe in the type of election you say the scriptures teach, some don’t. I think this is an in house debate.
I agree that this is an important issue, so much that it colors our entire understanding of who God is and the very nature of His love.
We should welcome differing views as they may teach us something new or shore up what we already believe.
Either way I think all discussions can be win/win.
I guess for me, the better venue is sit down discussion over coffee and open Bibles, as this subject is way to vast for me to try to communicate by writing in this manner.
This has been difficult for me to get my thoughts down in a concise and orderly manner.
I had to try though, because I do disagree with your interpretation of key Biblical principals.
In the mean time, I will continue to be a big fan of Def Con,
you guys do a great job here. Thank you.
Complete in Him
Keith
Thanks for stopping by again, Keith.
I think there’s been plenty of discussion, but whenever you, or I, or anyone else twists, adds to, or takes away from the scriptures then they’re going to get called on it here at DefCon.
I stand by everything I wrote not because of “views”, but because of truth claims you made that contradict the words spoken by Jesus Christ. Jesus’ word is truth, and anything contrary to His word is a lie, even if we’ve been deceived into believing the lie.
I hope you’ll continue visiting.
In Christ,
CD