But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8-9).
The inspired Apostle Paul condemns in the strongest terms possible those who teach another Gospel other than the biblical Gospel of Jesus Christ. This means that God’s Word itself passes judgment on the souls of men who unrepentantly continue in their errors and persist in teaching wicked lies and the cunning fables of men in place of the true eternal Gospel of grace. Based upon this clear and direct curse pronounced upon them by the inspired Word of God we must conclude that the false teachers of false soul-damning gospels are accursed.
SCHULLER: Tell me, what do you think is the future of Christianity?
GRAHAM: Well, Christianity and being a true believer — you know, I think there’s the Body of Christ. This comes from all the Christian groups around the world, outside the Christian groups. I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they’re conscious of it or not, they’re members of the Body of Christ. [How can anyone love Christ or know Christ and not be conscious of it (Rom. 8:9,16; 10:14; 1 John 3:24; 4:13; John 3:18)?] And I don’t think that we’re going to see a great sweeping revival that will turn the whole world to Christ at any time. I think James answered that — the Apostle James in the first council in Jerusalem, when he said that God’s purpose for this age is to call out a people for His name. And that’s what God is doing today, He’s calling people out of the world for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world, or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ because they’ve been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus, but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don’t have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think that they are saved, and that they’re going to be with us in heaven.
SCHULLER: Well, what I hear you saying, that it’s possible for Jesus Christ to come into human hearts and soul and life, even if they’ve been born in darkness and have never had exposure to the Bible. Is that a correct interpretation of what you’re saying?
GRAHAM: Yes, it is, because I believe that. I’ve met people in various parts of the world in tribal situations, that they have never seen a Bible or heard about a Bible, and never heard of Jesus, but they’ve believed in their hearts that there was a God, and they’ve tried to live a life that was quite apart from the surrounding community in which they lived.
SCHULLER: This is fantastic! I’m so thrilled to hear you say that! There’s a wideness in God’s mercy!
GRAHAM: There is. There definitely is.
If you’re not absolutely shocked by such sentiments then you’ve not been paying attention to God’s Word. Yet Billy Graham’s unbiblical ecumenical madness isn’t the recent product of a deranged and demented mind racked with age – on the contrary such blatantly false teaching has for decades consistently spewed forth from the pulpits attended by Graham.
It deeply saddens me to know that the man who became known as “America’s Preacher” is nevertheless guilty of turning his back on the The Risen Lord of Glory. And while we can rest assured that men will always disappoint us, I am filled with righteous indignation at the fact that not only has the dog returned to his vomit, but through his broad influence and shameless spiritual smut-peddling he’s guilty of causing countless others who have followed in his footsteps to commit grave error through his example of rank apostasy.
Billy Graham has led an entire generation of pastor-teachers down the slippery slope of doctrinal error and ”ends-justify-the-means” pragmatism and his well established pattern of spiritual adultery with the likes of anti-Reformer Robert Schueller is highly documented and irrefutable.
This article from WND is but one example of the clear and established pattern of compromise of Billy Graham. Graham’s words in the linked article are eerily similar to the utterly unbiblical non-position taken by the apostate, anti-christ, Word of Faith arch-heretic and mouthpiece of Satan known as Joel Osteen when he was quizzed about whether or not non-Christians can go to heaven on CNN’s “Larry King Live” television show:
KING: Because we’ve had ministers on who said, your record don’t count. You either believe in Christ or you don’t. If you believe in Christ, you are, you are going to heaven. And if you don’t no matter what you’ve done in your life, you ain’t.
OSTEEN: Yeah, I don’t know. There’s probably a balance between. I believe you have to know Christ. But I think that if you know Christ, if you’re a believer in God, you’re going to have some good works. I think it’s a cop-out to say I’m a Christian but I don’t ever do anything …
KING: What if you’re Jewish or Muslim, you don’t accept Christ at all?
OSTEEN: You know, I’m very careful about saying who would and wouldn’t go to heaven. I don’t know …
KING: If you believe you have to believe in Christ? They’re wrong, aren’t they?
OSTEEN: Well, I don’t know if I believe they’re wrong. I believe here’s what the Bible teaches and from the Christian faith this is what I believe. But I just think that only God with judge a person’s heart. I spent a lot of time in India with my father. I don’t know all about their religion. But I know they love God. And I don’t know. I’ve seen their sincerity. So I don’t know. I know for me, and what the Bible teaches, I want to have a relationship with Jesus.
In case that response was too “nuanced” for our dear readers please allow me to translate for you:
So long as you’re “sincere” you may get go to “heaven”…maybe. “Jesus” may work for some of people who call themselves “Christians” – like me Joel Osteen (*insert broad toothy grin*) – and maybe they’re right…uh…I mean…um…maybe I’m right, but I’m not too sure about that, in fact I really don’t know, but hey, I don’t want to drag you down or beat you up with the Bible! Just be encouraged, friend! Maybe Buddha or Baal or a tree or a rock or a cow or the “Great Nothing” or…whatever…works for you and if so, it’s all good just so long as you’re “sincere” about whatever religion (or lack of thereof) you may (or may not) profess because Gawd has a wunnerful plah-yun fer yer life!
Unbelievable! This is a supposedly Christian pastor who’s squirming in his seat and giving unbiblical non-answers when quizzed about whether or not practicing, non-Christian Jews and Muslims are going to heaven! A small child who’s paid any attention whatsoever during Sunday School could answer this simple and direct question! Was this not an opportunity to share the Gospel message? Is Osteen not a messenger of the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Read the transcript again and decide for yourself in the light of infallible scripture.
With these and similar consistent statements in mind and based upon the crystal clear teaching found in Galatians 1:8-9 the sad conclusion that is reached is that Joel Osteen, like Billy Graham, must be deemed as an accursed, apostate, false teacher and a rank heretic. We can see this clearly because in the singular moment that “Smilin’ Joel” had in which to decide if he should risk the vaporization his fawning media coverage and the obliteration his “seeker friendly” status by proclaiming the exclusive and narrow way of Christ, he chose obedience to his father the devil and sought after the praise of men instead of being faithful to the Risen Lord of Glory Jesus Christ and His eternal Gospel of grace.
Joel Osteen is a friend of the world, and we know from Scripture that whosoever is friends with the world is at enmity with God Almighty.
Based upon these exact same types of evidences we must also conclude that Billy Graham is in fact an enemy of the One True and Living God who has forsaken his first love. Unfortunately he is so iconic within the modern professing church that many, if not most, would prefer to turn a blind eye to his manifold errors than expose them, and this is perhaps the gravest disservice of all. For those who true are born-again believers in Jesus Christ are to exhort and correct our fellow professing believers, not enable them in the error of their ways. But since the body of Christ has become derelict in its duty and for decades has been more than happy to leave a fool to his folly we find that Billy Graham’s apostasy is older than you think.
Futhermore in this short audio file Pastor John MacArthur astutely and irrefutably links the apostate universalism espoused by the harlot Roman Catholic Church, Billy Graham, and Robert Schueller which is the exact same demonic pack of lies that is being parroted by the arch-heretic Joel Osteen in the CNN transcript quote shown above. These heretical and unscriptural teachings are undeniably present in modern day evangelicalism and they are just as spiritually deadly and poisonous as ever.
“For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them.” (2 Peter 2:21)
From Biblical Discernment Ministries: Billy Graham – General Teachings/Activities
Fifty years of compromise have increased Billy Graham’s popularity but have resulted in a serious loss of spiritual discernment and Scriptural convictions. Fifty years of compromise have brought Billy Graham into close fellowship and cooperation with millions of those who preach a false gospel and teach dangerous, unscriptural doctrines. His refusal to warn about the false gospel preached by the Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant churches is inexcusable and indefensible. His failure to warn about the dangers of the wildfire teachings of charismatic leaders opens the door for millions of believers to be deceived. Fifty years of compromise have even led Billy Graham into joining with leaders of pagan, heathen religions on the basis of a mutual search for world peace” (March- May 1991 Foundation, p. 16).
Continue reading BDM’s absolutely devastating article on Billy Graham’s copious history of damnably false and pernicious teachings here
Pilgrim
thejunglemissionary
Bill
Manfred
abidingthroughgrace
Chris Hohnholz
John MacArthur read, again, the Graham-Schuller telecast transcript at the Ligonier Ministries’ West Coast Conference on September 27, 2008 in MacArthur’s sermon entitled “Is Jesus the Only Way?” Of course, MacArthur was merely noting that Scripture condemns the belief of so-called “wider-mercy salvation” that something innate in man can get man to God. It was an excellent sermon that I hope is available for download soon.
Some people in my church still believe that BG is a ‘good man’. *sigh*
There seems to be a HUGE falling away these days. It’s seems more & more you hear of men who have stood for the Word of God saying there are other ways to God. How can they study & preach the Bible yet cling to this kind of rubbish?
There is a desire to know God in all of mankind. That does not mean that everyone is saved. If that were true there would have been no need for Jesus to sacrifice his life for our sins. You either believe the Bible is true or you don’t – no middle ground.
Thanks for the tip on the J-Mac sermon Jay C.!
I know exactly what you mean Jonathan Hunt!
Shma,
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head with regard to a general falling away. This would seem to explain the myriads of false and aberrant teaching that are presently sweeping across the barren, desolate landscape of modern day church-ianity.
But while we agree on the falling away I don’t find any scriptural support for the position you’ve articulated by claiming that “There is a desire to know God in all of mankind.”
Biblically speaking apart from miraculously being made a new creature in Christ mankind is an incorrigibly and incurably idolatrous and sinful fallen race.
It’s true that the Infinite Creator and Judge of the universe made us to be very good worshippers, but unfortunately left to our own sinful hearts and corrupted desires we invariably choose and devise very, very bad things to worship.
With this truth in view there is definitely a perverted “desire” of sorts within mankind to worship some god (or gods), but the sad spiritual reality is that apart from being found in Christ alone fallen humanity is a race of abominable idol worshipping pagans who are ever at enmity with the One True and Living God of the Holy Bible.
You either believe the Bible is true or you don’t – no middle ground. Amen.
In Christ,
CD
Below are a few other links on Mr. Graham:
The Billy Graham Tapes
John MacArthur on Billy Graham
A Comparison Between John MacArthur, a Catholic Priest, Joel Osteen, and Billy Graham
The Graham Formula
There is a video posted on November 4th documenting Bob DeWaays recent use (2 weeks ago) of using Billy Graham as an example of conduct. It is critical of this. It is by – churchwatch – titled – Redefining Billy Graham, Bob DeWaay.
OK – Out of curiosty, if there is a man born in some third world no where’s land and never hears the gospel……what happens in his afterlife? Any thoughts? Not trying to bait anyone but you can’t denounce the above theory without struggling with this very question.
Hello tsfgodguy!
Thanks for your very relevant question on this subject.
The answer to your question is that the same thing would happen to your hypothetical man as happens to everyone else who dies in their sins and trespasses apart from grace.
The man you’ve described would receive holy justice from the Infinite Creator and Judge of the universe. He would be found guilty of breaking God’s Holy Law, he would be found to be a stranger to God’s eternal covenant of grace, and therefore he would be condemned to eternal punishments in hellfire forever.
This spiritual reality forms the basis for Christ’s Great Commission, which sadly vast swaths of the modern, visible professing church has turned into the Great Omission: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (Matthew 28:19)
As you consider my response please ask yourself these questions, tsfgodguy:
How many ways to the Father did Jesus articulate in John 14:6?
In Romans 1:20-21 which men are excused from their responsibility to know and glorify God?
According to Romans 3:10 how many men are deserving of salvation by their own intrinsic merit?
In Christ,
CD
Hey CD,
I appreciate your response. If you don’t mind, I would like to continue the conversation and understand your response better……
While I fully understand our Great Commission, if I go back to my little hypathical little man who never heard the story of Christ…..
However, as in Romans 1: 20 – He still sees the invisiable qualities of God but unlike those spoken about in this text, glorifies God and thanks Him……but He has not heard the physical name of Jesus and His good news of Romans 10: 9-10, then it impossible for Him to do so.
If I understand you correctly, this man would still go to hell though with the knowledge he had to work with was limited for being able to say the prayer of salvation. Though with the knowledge he had, he did everything he could to honor, love, and follow God…since he did not know about Jesus thus could not accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour, he goes to hell?
tsfgodguy,
You asked: If I understand you correctly, this man would still go to hell though with the knowledge he had to work with was limited for being able to say the prayer of salvation. Though with the knowledge he had, he did everything he could to honor, love, and follow God…since he did not know about Jesus thus could not accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour, he goes to hell?
Correct, he goes to hell.
According to the Holy Bible it’s impossible to honor, love and follow the One True and Living God or be pleasing to Him in any way apart from being in Christ.
It’s very important to understand that “sincerity” isn’t enough to merit salvation. The man you’ve described is, in the light of scripture, an idolater. He was worshipping that which he knew not from his flesh and no flesh shall be justified in the sight of God.
Listen to what Jesus said in His High Priestly Prayer in John 17:9; I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine
Jesus here is praying to the Father on behalf of a specific group, “them which thou has given me”. Now the question must be answered – for whom was Christ praying? Who are those who the Father has given to Christ? We find the answer further along in the selfsame prayer: “Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Christ was interceding with the Father on behalf of His apostles and “them which shall believe on me through their word”. At this point we can already see that Jesus did not pray for your hypothetical man because that man didn’t believe on Christ through the word of the apostles as we have it recorded today in the New Testament.
Salvation merited by sincerity would utterly redefine Christianity and what it means to be a Christian. One can’t be saved unless one is in Christ. One can’t be in Christ without believing in Christ. The Gospel can’t be reduced to the mere fact that Christ died for sinners apart from any intellectual assent to this truth claim, without faith in Christ, without the re-birth and without the newness of life that accompanies salvation.
There is no salvation apart from the eternal Gospel of Jesus Christ.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! (Romans 10:14-15)
The way these questions are structured in the text demands a universally negative response – they can’t.
They are unable.
It is impossible.
In John 6:44 Christ announces yet another universal negative upon all mankind’s inherent ability to come unto Him: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. How many men? No man. Now we have another question we must answer – how does the Father draw men unto Christ? The inspired Apostle Paul gives us clarification in Romans 10:17; So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God
True saving faith comes by hearing the word of God.
But let’s say the hypothetical man is a REALLY good guy, I mean, let’s attribute to him all the best that is within a natural man, kindness, generosity, humility, selflessness, let’s make him the most righteous man that ever walked the earth apart from Jesus Christ Himself. Even with that we’re left with a sinner in need of a Savior who does not possess saving faith apart from hearing the Word of God.
This is because he is trying to please his own conception of a god in his flesh. Romans 8:6-8 says; For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Our hypothetical man cannot please God in his flesh. In fact he is God’s enemy.
In John 6:63 Jesus says: It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. It is Jesus’ words by that give life to a man’s spirit.
Satan is constantly trying to keep men’s minds blinded to God’s truth and the unbelieving world lies under his dominion (2 Corinthians 4:4).
If we’re talking about sincerity then let’s take a look at Romans 10:1-3, here we have unbelieving Israel whom Paul claims actually had a zeal for God (the REAL God, not a phony) but they were nevertheless apart from His covenant of grace:
Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Israel was sincere, but they were sincerely unsaved and therefore damned.
And lest we think that some man could actually be sincere enough to merit God’s grace in his fleshly efforts let us consider the inspired Apostle once again:
Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: (Philippians 3:4)
Paul claims here to have more reason to have confidence in the flesh than ANY OTHER MAN, but then how does he conclude this thought?
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith
He considers his efforts in the flesh to be worthless as dung apart from “the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith”. This is because, as we’ve already seen, apart from faith no one can please God and faith comes only by hearing the Word of God.
Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest. (Matthew 9:38)
In Christ,
CD
Hmmmm, I guess where you are now confussing me is the verse you referenced said that one who had not heard the gospel were without excuse because the evidence of God was around them and they rejected God (not Christ because they had not heard him). Yet if they acted on what they did know, the evidence of God, they still go to hell which causes a problem of why Paul would draw a difference in rather they rejected or accepted what evidence they did have.
I fully agree with you when it comes to one who has heard the gospel message of Jesus Christ and have not accepted Him as Leader and Forgiver in thier life. Then they are responsible for that decision.
However, two main attributes of God I see in the Scripture is His justice and His love. IF, one has never heard the gospel message … I mean never….. then they did not have the option to accept or reject him…. then being sent to hell would not be justice or love.
Let me put it this way, people have no problem saying a 4 year old who passes away will go to heaven because they can not understand sin or the message so they are not accountable. However one who is 42 and never heard the message would be in the same boat. They can not be held accountable to something they never were presented.
I very much appreciate your well mannered approach to communicating on this issue. I can tell you have a heart of love and hold to your understanding of truth from the Scripture. I’m just not sure I agree with your final determination. Thanks for the better understanding of where you are coming from though.
Blessings!
tsfgodguy,
You said: Hmmmm, I guess where you are now confussing me is the verse you referenced said that one who had not heard the gospel were without excuse because the evidence of God was around them and they rejected God (not Christ because they had not heard him).
To be honest I don’t know how I lost you on this point but I’ll backtrack in case I was unclear in my last post.
All men are without excuse for not knowing and glorifying God (Romans 1:20-21). This scriptural truth alone completely eliminates any argument from ignorance that might attempt to claim some men shouldn’t be condemned to hell under some circumstances – for example having never had an opportunity to hear the gospel. ALL men without exception are universally without excuse which includes our hypothetical man.
You said: Yet if they acted on what they did know, the evidence of God, they still go to hell which causes a problem of why Paul would draw a difference in rather they rejected or accepted what evidence they did have.
The scriptures cited in my comment above irrefutably prove that natural, sinful men cannot act on any partial evidence of God and be saved. Salvation of by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, period. According to the Holy Bible there’s simply no way to the Father but through the Son and there’s nothing that saves men’s souls apart from the eternal Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Furthermore I don’t see where in scripture Paul draws “a difference in rather they rejected or accepted what evidence they did have”. Can you point me to this distinction?
You said: I fully agree with you when it comes to one who has heard the gospel message of Jesus Christ and have not accepted Him as Leader and Forgiver in thier life. Then they are responsible for that decision.
I would view this situation from the viewpoint that the absolutely Holy, Righteous, and Worthy Lamb of God, the Risen Savior, Eternal Son and Second Person of the Triune One True and Living God, the Lord Jesus Christ mercifully accepts wretched unworthy sinners as opposed to taking the view that sinners accept Him, but I follow your meaning here. In all cases apart from being miraculously found in Christ all sinners are personally responsible for and will be judged for their sins.
You said: However, two main attributes of God I see in the Scripture is His justice and His love. IF, one has never heard the gospel message … I mean never….. then they did not have the option to accept or reject him…. then being sent to hell would not be justice or love.
I accept that you may feel this way, but such a view is Biblically unsupportable. God is love, let there be no doubt, but to take the position that God’s holy justice against sin is somehow negated by His compassion, pity and mercy is simply unscriptural. God is as equally just as He is merciful, all His divine attributes are in perfect harmony with one another since He is the very pinnacle of perfection and under girding all His manifold perfections is His absolute purity and holiness.
The thrice Holy God of scripture (for His Name is Holy) abhors sin with a burning and perfect hatred that cannot be satisfied by anything other than the atoning, sinless shed blood of Jesus Christ for without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. And as we’ve seen demonstrated no one can be forgiven of their sins apart from being in Christ, and no one can be in Christ apart from receiving His gospel and placing their trust in Him alone, and faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
Unforgiven sin cannot abide in God’s presence and all unforgiven sinners (those outside Christ) will have their part in the lake of fire forever. Scripture couldn’t be more consistent and clear on this point. With respect to your concern that it would not be justice or love for God to commit a man’s soul to hell who never heard of Him or the Gospel of Jesus Christ I’d simply point out that by definition and by His nature God can never be unjust or unfair therefore no such argument can be made against Him.
In fact divine justice would be for every human being who ever lived to be damned to hell since we’re all guilty sinners, but thankfully we have a merciful God who from His good pleasure and boundless oceans of pity and compassion has chosen to save some (Christians) by the brutal and bloody sacrifice of His only begotten Son on a rugged, gory Roman cross.
The inspired Apostle Paul anticipated precisely this type of objection in Romans 9:
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (Romans 9:11-21)
You said: Let me put it this way, people have no problem saying a 4 year old who passes away will go to heaven because they can not understand sin or the message so they are not accountable.
Let’s not broaden the discussion beyond our hypothetical man for now, agreed? We can discuss 4 year olds and aborted babies in a different thread.
You said: However one who is 42 and never heard the message would be in the same boat. They can not be held accountable to something they never were presented.
I’ll simply point you back to Romans 1:20-21 and tell you that the Holy Spirit flatly disagrees with you by the hand of the inspired Apostle Paul. ALL men are accountable and without excuse for not knowing and glorifying God. The problem is sin. The natural man loves sin and hates God. This is what the Bible teaches.
You said: Thanks for the better understanding of where you are coming from though.
Based upon your responses thus far I also think I know where you’re coming from. I think that you believe the Bible is God’s Word, amen? Amen. Now let me tell you what else I think you believe (please correct me if I’m wrong):
I think you believe that only a particular group of human beings are or will be saved, and that particular group are only those who respond to the offer of the gospel with faith.
I think you believe that only those who believe actually appropriate atonement in Christ and that the person who fails to embrace the saving work of Christ with faith is left in his sins and is damned.
Amen so far?
Now where you seem to be struggling isn’t with those who willfully fail to embrace the offer of the gospel, but rather your problem is with damning those who never actually rejected the offer because said offer was never actually made, correct?
But our hypothetical man isn’t innocent of sin before God, he’s guilty. The real question here isn’t why would God allow our hypothetical man who never heard the gospel go to hell, the real question is why would God ever allow anyone at all to enter heaven? Amazing grace.
Salvation is of the Lord and those who never heard the gospel are damned by default because they are equally as guilty as any other unrepentant sinner (Romans 1:20-21). This is divine justice and everyone – all mankind – deserves justice, on the other hand no one deserves mercy yet some will receive unmerited mercy – it is the gift of God lest any man should boast – and that’s why it’s called mercy.
To put it in human terms if the governor of your home state commuted the execution of one death row inmate would you be up in arms accusing him of being unjust and unfair unless he commuted the sentences of all the other death row inmates? I hope not. In this example one man got mercy and the others get justice. Again, no one deserves mercy.
In Christ,
CD
To be honest, I was going to let our conversation stand on it’s own but since you asked questions, I will stay in for another round….
You said “I accept that you may feel this way, but such a view is Biblically unsupportable. God is love, let there be no doubt, but to take the position that God’s holy justice against sin is somehow negated by His compassion, pity and mercy is simply unscriptural.”
I am certain that I did not say “I feel this way”, I said I do see in the Scripture (big difference there expecially with the bold text, I take my belief from the Wrod, not my feelings)……. the only concern I have with you saying this statment is you have twisted my words. I never said that God’s love will outweigh His justice. No sir. Not in anyway did I even hint that. I said He is both and the two work in fulfillment of one another.
When I talked about my comparison of our hypothetical man and a 4 year old passing, you said “Let’s not broaden the discussion beyond our hypothetical man for now, agreed? We can discuss 4 year olds and aborted babies in a different thread.”
I do not agree. I do not have any desire to debate this or add it to another thread. This was a valid comparrison and is not open to being divided up because you don’t want to deal with it here. To be honest you don’t even have to. It was more a point I wanted to share than anything where I was trying to correct you or debate.
You went into what you believe I believe. I believe everyone who has heard the gospel message of Jesus Christ is accountable for that message. If you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour by acknowledging Him with your mouth and believing in your heart, then you are saved. I believe this is the start of a beautiful, fulfilled life of an intimate relationship with the Holy Trinity. I believe those who reject this message, reject mercy, and are subject to damnation to hell though God will do whatever He can to keep that from happening during our time on this earth.
However, when it comes to our little hypothtical man who does not have this message to act upon, you say….”Now where you seem to be struggling….”
To be honest, I am not struggling with it. I believe from what I see in the Scripture you can not be held accountable for something that you had no chance to reject or accept. I know that drives you nuts so pray for me. If I am wrong, the Holy Spirit will convict me of it but He has not as of yet.
I wanted to have a better understanding of your position for my consideration. I appreciate you entering into that with me. I wanted to converse about my beliefs for you consideration as well as some of your guests who seem to join you in your belief on this matter.
Thanks for your time……
tsfgodguy,
You said:You said “I accept that you may feel this way, but such a view is Biblically unsupportable. God is love, let there be no doubt, but to take the position that God’s holy justice against sin is somehow negated by His compassion, pity and mercy is simply unscriptural.”
I am certain that I did not say “I feel this way”, I said I do see in the Scripture (big difference there expecially with the bold text, I take my belief from the Wrod, not my feelings)……. the only concern I have with you saying this statment is you have twisted my words. I never said that God’s love will outweigh His justice. No sir. Not in anyway did I even hint that. I said He is both and the two work in fulfillment of one another.
I apologize if I’ve misunderstood your position and I was not attempting to twist your words, I was merely stating what I understood your words to mean. You have set the record straight, thank you.
When I talked about my comparison of our hypothetical man and a 4 year old passing, you said “Let’s not broaden the discussion beyond our hypothetical man for now, agreed? We can discuss 4 year olds and aborted babies in a different thread.”
I do not agree. I do not have any desire to debate this or add it to another thread. This was a valid comparrison and is not open to being divided up because you don’t want to deal with it here. To be honest you don’t even have to. It was more a point I wanted to share than anything where I was trying to correct you or debate.
In this case I’ll simply ask you to demonstrate from scripture why you believe a sinful human being can be, at least potentially, assured salvation due to ignorance and apart from Christ.
You said I believe those who reject this message, reject mercy, and are subject to damnation to hell though God will do whatever He can to keep that from happening during our time on this earth.
What has God not done (or is He not doing) to secure the salvation of all mankind during their time on this earth?
However, when it comes to our little hypothtical man who does not have this message to act upon, you say….”Now where you seem to be struggling….”
To be honest, I am not struggling with it. I believe from what I see in the Scripture you can not be held accountable for something that you had no chance to reject or accept. I know that drives you nuts so pray for me. If I am wrong, the Holy Spirit will convict me of it but He has not as of yet.
I still don’t know why you believe this. Can you support your position with scripture? How do you deal with Romans 1:20-21 and Romans 9:11-21?
In Christ,
CD
Hey CD,
I will stay in because of one reason……you attitude in your posts so far have been civil and I really appreciate that. This is not always the case in the blog world as I am sure you know…..
Romans 1: 20-21 – When I put it in context…..is a letter from Paul talking to the church in Rome, a community that has heard the gospel. He is talking about those “men who surpress the truth by thier wickedness” (18)
This section clearly seems to speak of a particular group of people as he shares details of thier situation that do not apply to all men. They trade the truth of God for idols (23), because of this, God turned them over to thier sexual lusts including homosexuality (26-27); and since they did not think it worthwhile to remember the things of God (which sugggests they knew it in the first place) then things got much, much worse (28-32).
Even with all of this out the for that group of people, Romans 2: 1-4 comes in and tells us to be very careful to not pass judgment on any man since that is God’s job and not ours. I think God has spoken on the sins so we know what is right or wrong. I’m not sure when it comes to our hypotetical man that it really is our place to say he is going to hell or not. We are not speaking of a sin but judgment. Maybe I’m right, maybe you are, but really it only matters what God thinks.
Anyways, back to just the two verses of 20-21 (which I am leary of taking out of context). I think about the native americans before we got here. All they had to work with was the God’s invisiable qualities – His eternal power and divine nature. They had never heard the name of Jesus but they saw the evidence of God and accepted (did not reject) Him through what they did see. I believe those who did so, will be heaven with us. Those who saw those qualities and rejected God, not so much.
If a missionary came into thier community and proclaimed the gospel and they rejected it, then that is another story.
What may frustrate you a little with me, is I won’t give a ton of broken out Scripture soundbites on my position because I think it is the entire message of God’s redemptive plan throughout the entire Bible that speaks to this.
For instance, the beginning. I see a great deal of love in the Creation story. Especially Genesis 2 where it appears the entire goal of God was to create man, have relationship with him, and have it be a good place for him. I even find it loving that God did not force us to obey him but let us choose so it was not a forced relationship.
With that in mind, God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the middle of the garden. With it came a truth that if someone ate of it, it would bring death (break in the relationship between man and God). Since God is a God of justice……he told man not to eat of it or this is the result.
What if God never told Adam and Eve that? What if he slapped the tree there and didn’t say a word, they eat of it thinking it’s any other tree, and then God came in and said “WAMMM! You really screwed up!” It wouldn’t be justice.
However, since He is a God of love, He gave them a choice. Since He is a God of justice, He gave them all the info up front. Since He is a God of justice, he followed through on that consequence. Since He is a God of love, He choose to take the ultimate punishment through his Son. Since He is God of Justice, we have to accet that gift. Since He is a God of love, He is thrilled when we take it.
If someone is never told the Truth of the gospel where they can or can not act upon it, I can not see love or justice in them being treated as one who would have the knowledge.
OK, I rambbled. You asked abotu Romans 9: 11-21. I have to be honest, as I reread it, it seems to really support my position. Again, to put it in context, Paul is talking about Jewish people and Gentiles both recieving mercy. That God gives mercy to who He gives mercy . Again, I see Paul speaking to and about those who have knowledge of the truth and gospel. I would love a better understanding on how this supports the concept of how someone who does not have the truth can be held accountable for it?
As far children who are not held accountable…..
I look to Duet. 1: 26-46 where the people of Isreal are held accountable for thier rebellion against God and will not enter into the Promised Land (justice for what they did versus what they knew). However, in verse 39, the children who did not yet know the difference between good and evil were not held accountable and did not get thie punishment against them (justice).
In a prophecy about the Messiah, it talks in Isaiah 7:16 that there is a time before when even Jesus would know enough to reject the wrong and choose the right. Again, showing there is a time that a child is not held accountable for what they do not know and can choose. Why then would a man who is never told about the gospel be held accountable for something he can not reject or accept.
The children are born into sin but they are held accountable after the time they understand what they are choosing. The man can only be held accountable in the same way. That was the point I was going for.
Oh no! I typed a long, thoguht out response and then forgot to hit submit before shutting down! Eek!
I will retype soon. Have a few things to do first. Opps =)
We, as finite creatures, don’t judge God’s will. God judges all men. And He judges righteously. God, before He created us, ordained in His perfect will that we would be born where and when we were born. Those who are born in a place where the Bible is not preached are without excuse if they fail to acknowledge and worship the God of the Christian Bible through His Son, Jesus Christ. In the heart of every man, at every place and time, since the beginning of creation, God has placed the idea of eternity, and revelation of Himself. (Ecclesiastes 3:11; Romans 1:19-20)
OK, I back… and I think I’ll stay with my talk with CD because quite frankly you are talking with me instead of at me and as you know, that is rare in the blog world.
I apologize that I am at work now so this oist will not be as in depth as the one I lost but here was the jist…..on the verses you brought up in Romans 1 and Romans 9….
Romans 1 – I take it in the context that I see it. Paul writing to Christians in Rome and addressing them about a people that went the “worldly” way of knowing God and what is right and wrong, rejected Him, turned to idol worship, God gave them over to thier sinful sexual desires and homosexual acts, and it continued to get worse as they moved into other areas of sin. If I put the couple verses into the whole, I get a little bit of a different picture. If I add in Chapter 2, it is not my place to judge others salvation. Paul could speak to thier sin because God has spoken to what sin is in His Word. Rather or not you are right on our hypothetical man, I am right, or whatever, only truelly God knows our little guy’s judgement.
OK, Romans 9 I think actual goes along with my belief. God shows His mercy to who He wills though this is more talking about gentile and jewish followers but ok.
Anywho, I won’t give a ton of Scriptures on my belief here because to me, it’s more of a whole Bible thing instead of a verse here and there. The entire Bible, to me shows God redemptive plan.
Hmmm, let’s use the beginning for a case in point. Genesis 2…..the entire chapter reads to me about a God who had a plan, create man, have a relationship with him, and make life good for him (the garden, fruit was not only good to eat but pleasent to eyes, lookig for a companion for Adam, ect). I see this as an act of love.
Another act of God’s love is to put the tree of knowledge in the middle of the garden (noteven to the far edge). He gave us choice so we could choose to be in relationship with Him and not just a puppet. Another act of love and justice is He told Adam not to eat from it and the results if He did due to God’s justice. When Adam messed up, the consequences were there (God’s justice). God, in His justice could not let man off the hook but in His love, took the hit for us. In His love and justice, if we accept it through what we have talked about before than we have relationship with Him once again. (I think we are on the same page so far)
What if God never told Adam not to eat of the tree and the results of it? Adam is going along eating fruit and jut happens to grab one and take a bite and God laid out the smackdown? That would not speak of His love of justice. I apply the same to our hypothetical man.
If the Native Americans saw the evidence of God around them, His nature in His creation, felt the longing in thier hearts to draw near Him, worship Him, yet they had never heard the name of “Jesus” and the gospel message, then yes, I believe thier judgment will be positive but again, that’s God’s judgment to make.
If a missionary came and told them the gospel message of Jesus Christ and they rejected it yet they were “good” people, then not so much.
The problem I am having with some of what is here is two things are being said by someof the posters….
- God has placed Himself in each of us if you have heard the message of Jesus or not
- So then, if they don’t hear the message, they still have to accept Jesus as Lord or Saviour or burn.
The two can not go hand in hand. They can accept God without hearing the gospel, they can not accept the gosel of Christ if they have never heard it.
Now if someone said, everyone hears the message….if a missionary doesn’t get there, I believe God will say an angel to tell them, then at least you are being consistant. But to say someone must acknowledge Jesus when they have never even heard his name or they fry is impossible, non loving and non justice. It does not match the Scripture.
Let me try this…..(and this is why I pulled in the children who pass away comparission)
When God passed His judgment against Isreal’s rebellion and said they would not enter into the Promised Land, He made a distinction with them and the children who were not of a place where they could understand and be held accountable. (Duet 1:39). God did not pass judgment on them because they could not be held accountable for something they did not understand.
Or what about Isaiah 7:16 which is a prophecy about the Messiah that speaks of when the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the light. If there was even a point when little Jesus did not understand the difference, shouldn’t that say something about how God sees things.
Children who can not understand the gospel message fully are not judged by the same standard as the adults described in Romans 1.
How can a man who has never, ever heard the message be held to the same account?
OK, probaly alot of mispellings and half points since I’m at work now but it’s the best I’ve got for now….Blessings!
tsfgodguy,
I’ve read through your two most recent comments several times in a serious effort to try to make certain that I clearly understand the position that you’ve articulated here.
Here’s what I’m taking away from your statements (please correct me if I’m wrong):
Based upon my understanding of your position in this thread I believe that you are making the argument that despite the fact that they are not in Christ (i.e. they are non-Christians) nevertheless some unknown portion of fallen humanity will be truly saved by God and forgiven of their sins and trespasses and will not be condemned to hell under some circumstances – for example having never had an opportunity to hear the Gospel.
In other words you believe that the Triune One True and Living God of the Holy Bible will (and does) choose to “mercy” some portion of fallen humanity based upon His love and compassion for them as His creatures apart from the Christian model of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone as contained in scripture.
Is this a correct assessment of your position?
I definitely want to clarify this matter before proceeding.
In Christ,
CD
That’s fine. I would say that you are not following what I am trying say fully though I can see where you got what you did.
To simplify it as much as possible…..(or at least try)
If in any way, one has heard the gospel of Jesus Christ and has the mental compacity of understanding it, they are acountable for what they do with it. They can accept Christ and have salvation or reject him and have seperation leading to hell.
If one has not in any way, shape or form heard the gospel message, then they would not be held accountable for something they had no chance to respond to and no oppurtunity to understand.
It is not a “God sometimes negates judgment due to mercy”.
It is you can not be accountable for rejecting something you did not have the chance to accept.
If a child is not held accountable to judgment because they do not have the mental compacity to understand right and wrong and accept Christ, how can one who never heard the message in the first place?
Again, not trying to get anyone to agree with me. Trying to explain my position as well as I can.
tsfgodguy,
You said: If one has not in any way, shape or form heard the gospel message, then they would not be held accountable for something they had no chance to respond to and no oppurtunity to understand.
and again: It is you can not be accountable for rejecting something you did not have the chance to accept.
If a child is not held accountable to judgment because they do not have the mental compacity to understand right and wrong and accept Christ, how can one who never heard the message in the first place?
Again, not trying to get anyone to agree with me. Trying to explain my position as well as I can.
Please understand that I’m not attempting to be tedious, I’m simply trying to ensure that we’re on the same page with respect to the position you are articulating here because I believe this is an important subject.
It still seems to me upon review of your most recent statement that my bolded comments in #19 above are basically in line with your further clarification.
You do seem to be professing the belief at least some (yet not necessarily all) of fallen, non-Christian humanity not only can be saved apart from being found in Christ by grace through faith by the hearing of the Gospel (potential salvation), but that at least some (yet not necessarily all) of fallen, non-Christian humanity actually will be truly saved (actual salvation) by God and forgiven of their sins and trespasses and will not be condemned to hell depending on certain qualifying circumstances or conditions being met.
As I understand your last comment some of these qualifying circumstances or conditions are A) dying having never had an opportunity to hear the Gospel during one’s life on earth B) dying yet being too young to understand/comprehend/intellectually grasp the Gospel during one’s life on earth, or C) dying having been otherwise mentally incapacitated due to, for example, congenital brain damage, severe mental retardation, etc during one’s life on earth.
Is this correct?
If so, then as a follow up question I would also be interested to know if you believe all or only some of those within the three groups in view above (A, B, and C) would be truly saved and why (i.e. upon what merits or demerits would they be truly saved or not saved).
In Christ,
CD
I would say in general we are getting closer but I am a little weary for two reasons…
- one (and sorry for this, I appreciate your attitude so far but at the same time, we don’t know each other well)…it almost feels I am being baited into a corner by keeping the essence of what I am saying but changing the words just a little to set and spike a position. Again, you may have very noble reasons to be so detailed out so you understand me the best you can but I must admit I am a tad leary that this could be a jab, jab, jab punch type set up. (I apologize if it is not).
- two, I keep talking about accountablity of a decision where the summery keeps coming into a kind of “are they saved” from thier sin type feel. I know that doesn’t seem to be a big deal but, if someone was on the jab. jab level, that could be a tactic.
Again, forgive me because I believe you could be legit and not trying to overpick it apart looking for one lose word or a different spin to pounce but again, I am just cautious.
OK, that all being said and if I put it to the side for a second, then yes, those three catagories of people would enter into heaven from my view not because they have some different kind of set of code that they “merit” entry but because they can not be held accountable because it is not justice.
Now, if you would, if I understand your position, are you saying that 1) our hypothetical man who never heard the name of Jesus so it’s literaly impossible to accept or deny Him 2) a 3 year old child, and 3) a mentaly handicapped man who has just enough mentality to rock back and forth and does not respond to his name because he does not understand…. all go to hell when they die. Am I understanding your position correctly?
Hmm, it didn’t take my post again….I wonder what is up with that?
Anyways, let’s try this again,
CD,
I think you are getting the jist of what I am saying. I will say I’m a little leary because (nothing personal, we just don’t know each other well and you know how blogging goes sometimes) someone attempting to go into such detail about what you have already said can either be….
- an extreme attempt to understand your position better or….
- a situation like a boxer where they jab, jab, jab looking for an open hole and then JAB!
If I put that aside, I do believe that in the three areas you have described (and I have pretty much as well), these folks would likely go to heaven not because of their own “merits” but because ones who do not understand or have heard could not be held accountable. It is not God’s justice.
Now, to make sure I understand your position better….
Are you saying that is the….
- hypotethical man who never even heard the name of Jesus, learned what sin is, and how to be saved
- the 2 year old child who just figured out the word bath is the same as when they get in the water and get clean
- and the mentaly handicapped woman who just has enough mental capacity to rock and back and forth and does not recognize their own name
all go to hell when they died?
If I understand your position, then yes because, no matter what the reason, they have not accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour, no matter if they understood or even knew in the first place.
Well, now they both showed up. Oh well, I liked my second take better =)
tsfgodguy,
All I can believe about God’s character and about salvation is what the scriptures teach, and therefore I can’t believe that our hypothetical man has any hope of being admitted into heaven apart from being found in Christ. In the light of scripture and in view of God’s character as He has revealed Himself in the Holy Bible I must believe that our hypothetical man is justly damned.
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness.” (Romans 1:18)
God’s wrath abides upon the ungodly and the unrighteous (all unrepentant, sinful human beings apart from Christ).
“Thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity.” (Hebrews 1:9)
God hates iniquity.
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36)
God’s wrath abides on unbelievers.
“Let no man deceive you with vain words because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the sons of disobedience.” (Ephesians 5:6)
God’s wrath comes upon the disobedient.
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9)
Those who do not obey the gospel of Jesus Christ shall be punished with everlasting destruction.
The guilty verdict – the death sentence – on all mankind was passed in the Garden of Eden at the fall, and all human beings are justly judged deserving of hell in the head of our race, Adam.
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5:12)
All humanity is born into the world under the curse of sin and death and therefore by nature we are sinful.
To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:15)
God is going to execute divine judgment upon all the ungodly.
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (Romans 3:10)
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (Romans 3:23)
No one is worthy to be saved, but mercifully by God’s grace many will be saved.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber (John 10:1)
There is only one door.
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. (John 10:9)
Jesus Christ is the only door.
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)
There’s only one way.
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (Matthew 7:14)
The way is narrow and exclusive.
Now, to summarize and to respond to your questions about A) our hypothetical man, B) the 2 year old, and C) the lifelong mentally incapacitated woman; here is what I believe from scripture:
Hypothetical man – Damnation to hell for unbelief. Justice is rendered.
2 year old – Heaven. Mercy is rendered.
Lifelong mentally incapacitated woman – Heaven. Mercy is rendered.
Even though the child and the lifelong mentally incapacitated woman are born sinners (just like our hypothetical man and every other human being since the fall with the exception of Jesus Christ), they have never committed conscious deeds of willful rebellion and iniquity.
Yes, they are still sinners – otherwise they would never die since the wages of sin is death – but in the light of scripture we consistently see that God doesn’t charge people with actual sins until they are committed. God’s wrath against sin must be satisfied, to be more precise His wrath against sinful deeds.
God’s abiding wrath against a Christian’s sins and trespasses was completely and fully expiated and satisfied on the cross in Christ’s atoning sacrifice in our place. He paid the sin debt for those who come to Him by grace through faith by the hearing of His Gospel. Only true, born-again Christians are forgiven of their sins and trespasses – no one else.
Our hypothetical unbelieving man has committed willful sinful deeds of conscious disobedience and rebellion (broken God’s universal law) for which he is accountable and without excuse, unlike the infant child or the mentally incapacitated. Our hypothetical man will, therefore, be judged by his deeds and will be found outside Christ and will be justly condemned to hell (Revelation 20:11-12) wheras the infant and the mentally incapacitated have never committed any willful, sinful deeds of conscious disobedience and rebellion by which they might be condemned and therefore they will receive mercy – they will receive grace. The Bible clearly and consistently teaches that human beings are saved by grace and damned by works. Our hypothetical man’s conscious sinful works outside Christ damn him.
But the other two souls (the infant child and mentally incapacitated) have not accrued any “sin debt” which would engender God’s holy and righteous wrath against their sin. Again, they’re not sinless, otherwise they either wouldn’t be human or else they wouldn’t die, but they haven’t committed sin – no sinful deeds, no working of iniquity and therefore, as previously mentioned, they will receive mercy – they will receive grace.
God is equally and perfectly just and merciful and I can only take Him at His Word.
In Christ,
CD
“God is equally and perfectly just and merciful and I can only take Him at His Word.”
This I respect dearly about you and I feel the same way.
The difference that we see between us in reading these verses (and a great selection by the way) is this.
“Even though the child and the lifelong mentally incapacitated woman are born sinners (just like our hypothetical man and every other human being since the fall with the exception of Jesus Christ), they have never committed conscious deeds of willful rebellion and iniquity.”
“Our hypothetical unbelieving man has committed willful sinful deeds of conscious disobedience and rebellion (broken God’s universal law) for which he is accountable and without excuse, unlike the infant child or the mentally incapacitated.”
“Our hypothetical man will, therefore, be judged by his deeds and will be found outside Christ and will be justly condemned to hell (Revelation 20:11-12) wheras the infant and the mentally incapacitated have never committed any willful, sinful deeds of conscious disobedience and rebellion by which they might be condemned and therefore they will receive mercy – they will receive grace. ”
“Our hypothetical man’s conscious sinful works outside Christ damn him. ”
I won’t talk about the children or mentalily handicapped since we agree there. The main difference, it appears to me, between our two positions is this….
I believe the hypothetical man is not making “conscious sinful works” or “willful sinful deeds of conscious disobedience and rebellion ” because he does not know. You can not make a willful or conscious rebellion if you do not know in the first place.
If this is the case, I believe he can not incure (to use your words) “sin debt” anymore than the child can.
I realize you believe he can incure “sin debt” and I respect that you are consistant with your belief (rather or not I agree). I am ok with a agree to disagree here if you are and here’s why.
You and I both agree in spreading the gospel, being ambassadors for Christ, leading the lost to the Lord, and doing whatever we can to reach the hypothetical man. On this, I appreciate your heart and pray your ministry to the lost is where your passion is renewed and flared up as well as my own.
If you want to talk more on this, I’m more than cool with that. I’m not trying to shut it down. It just feels like we have both said what we have to say but if I missed something, feel free to bring it up.
Maybe I’ll peek around the site some more for other interesting conversations…..Peace and Blessings!
tsfgodguy,
We certainly do disagree. I’ll close by re-stating what I believe the scriptures consistently teach about the fallenness of all mankind:
The guilty verdict – the death sentence – on all mankind was passed in the Garden of Eden at the fall, and all human beings are justly judged deserving of hell in the head of our race, Adam. (Romans 5:12)
It would be divine justice for every human being who ever lived to be damned to hell for eternity since we’re all guilty sinners. (Romans 3:10 & 3:23)
Everyone deserves divine justice, yet some will receive divine mercy. Those who are the recipients of God’s unmerited gift of salvation (His mercy) will come to Jesus Christ by grace through faith by the hearing of the Gospel. (Romans 10:17)
Unbelief is damnable and unbelievers are damned (Romans 1:20-21; Jude 1:15; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9; Ephesians 5:6; John 3:36; Hebrews 1:9; Romans 1:18; Romans 8:6-8).
In Christ,
CD
Dear Billy,
Hello!
I want to know more about discernment. when and where in the bible first used discernment
If you believe that a person, that has the necessary mental capabilities to understand God’s Law and Grace, to never here the Gospel of Christ and still be saved; then you are saying that Jesus died in vain.
If a person can be saved without ever hearing the Gospel, then wouldn’t it have been easier for God to not send Jesus to die for us?
Wouldn’t it have been easier for God to overlook the sins of man?
If you answer that is was necessary for a sacrifice but not necessary to hear the Gospel then ask your self this.
Wouldn’t it have been better for Jesus to just come and die in obscurity and not let anybody know what He had done, that way they couldn’t ask why He done what He had done and then find out that they are guilty before God?
If ignorance of God’s Law and the Sacrifice of Jesus would grant you salvation, then why did Jesus take up disciples and command them to go into the entire world to preach the Gospel?
It seems like it would have been easier to perform the sacrifice then keep people in the dark so they wouldn’t have the chance to accept or reject the Gospel.