What has happened to John Piper? Why has he invited the perenially potty-mouthed duo Paul Tripp and Mark Driscoll to appear at his Desiring God 2008 National Conference? Why does John Piper see fit to provide the spiritual equivalents of “Beavis & Butthead”with a platform from which to spew their filth?
Over at Pulpit Magazine (a ministry of John MacArthur’s Shepherds’ Fellowship) Nathan Busenitz crushes “Flippancy, Frivolity, and Filthy Talk” from the pulpit with the weight of infallible scripture in his article entitled Clarifying Harsh Language.
Pastor Ken Silva weighs in on Paul Tripp’s potty-mouthed antics in his article: Paul Tripp Likes to Say the “S” Word
Steve Camp blisters Piper’s lack of judgment in his piece: PAUL TRIPP-PING – HE REALLY LIKES TO SAY THE “S” WORD…has Piper lost his mind or just forgotten his Bible?
In his article Camp well says:
“FYI: this is one of the promo videos for Piper’s upcoming DG Conference “The Power of Words and the Wonder of God” at the end of September produced by his ministry. They had to put a disclaimer at the front of this video because of its bad language. But even then, Piper is Clintonian in not really owning it calling the “s” word “…<b>potentially offensive, four letter language</b>…” Personally… I’m staying home. I don’t need to pay 175 bucks to hear some impolitic not preach faithfully the Scriptures and dance around what “wholesome speech” might mean to them so they can wrest the Word to accommodate their own guttural proclivities and justify the use of the “s” word in ministry. Furthermore, when you invite men like Tripp and Driscoll who obviously have this bent in ministry for smutty speech rather than proven expositors of God’s Word like MacArthur, Sproul, Mohler, Duncan, or Begg – then something is amiss; or in this case, a mess. I don’t need beloved, an excuse by any Bible teacher to use ribald speech and cuss; I need to be challenged to be more like Jesus Christ and obedient to His Word.”
Steve Camp also leaves a smoldering crater where the defenders of pulpit smut-talk and spiritual filth used to stand in his article THE GUARDIAN OF GRUNGE AND SEATTLE-SLUDGE…Driscoll uses the Lord Jesus Christ again as his punch line. It’s not funny anymore – repent.
Over at Slice of Laodicea Ingrid Schlueter adds:
“Steve Camp has a good post up about yet another Christian speaker who thinks that filthy language is chic. Thank you, Mark Driscoll, for your example. We really appreciate it. What is it with evangelicals and toilet language these days? When men like John Piper give credence to this kind of thing, is it any wonder we’re seeing a trend?
Maybe it made Paul Tripp feel manly to use the s-word. With the effeminization of men these days, that’s about all that’s left in many of their arsenals. What the real issue seems to be is maturity. Back in 4th grade, the attention seekers would do just about anything to stand out from the crowd…”
“Additional Note:Having just watched a Mark Driscoll video linked in this article below, I can no longer recommend or link to John Piper who continues to justify his inclusion of Driscoll at his conferences. If Rev. Piper is so lacking in discernment that he can justify this by a “pastor”, I can’t take Rev. Piper seriously any longer.”
And last but certainly not least John MacArthur identified and weighed in on Mark Driscoll’s dangerous error years ago in a piece he called “Grunge Christianity? Counterculture’s Death-Spiral and the Vulgarization of the Gospel”. In his article MacArthur well says:
“Worldly preachers seem to go out of their way to put their carnal expertise on display—even in their sermons. In the name of connecting with “the culture” they want their people to know they have seen all the latest programs on MTV; familiarized themselves with all the key themes of “South Park”; learned the lyrics to countless tracks of gangsta rap and heavy metal music; and watched who-knows-how-many R-rated movies. They seem to know every fad top to bottom, back to front, and inside out. They’ve adopted both the style and the language of the world—including lavish use of language that used to be deemed inappropriate in polite society, much less in the pulpit. They want to fit right in with the world, and they seem to be making themselves quite comfortable there.
Mark Driscoll is one of the best-known representatives of that kind of thinking. He is a very effective communicator—a bright, witty, clever, funny, insightful, crude, profane, deliberately shocking, in-your-face kind of guy. His soteriology is exactly right, but that only makes his infatuation with the vulgar aspects of contemporary society more disturbing.
Driscoll ministers in Seattle, birthplace of “grunge” music and heart of the ever-changing subculture associated with that movement. Driscoll’s unique style and idiom might aptly be labeled “post-grunge.” His language—even in his sermons—is deliberately crude. He is so well known for using profane language that in Blue Like Jazz (p. 133), Donald Miller (popular author and icon of the “Emerging Church” movement, who speaks of Driscoll with the utmost admiration) nicknamed him “Mark the Cussing Pastor.”
I don’t know what Driscoll’s language is like in private conversation, but I listened to several of his sermons. To be fair, he didn’t use the sort of four-letter expletives most people think of as cuss words—nothing that might get bleeped on broadcast television these days. Still, it would certainly be accurate to describe both his vocabulary and his subject matter at times as tasteless, indecent, crude, and utterly inappropriate for a minister of Christ. In every message I listened to, at least once he veered into territory that ought to be clearly marked off limits for the pulpit.”
Friends it’s simply pathetic when a pair of shameless spiritual smut-peddlers rank among the caliber of speaker that John Piper personally hand selects and invites to appear at one of his Desiring God Conferences. Evidently the bar is set ever lower in the race to the very bottom of the cultural cesspool and I’m personally saddened to see Piper apparently upon the slippery slope of relativism and pragmatism in the matter before us.
A prayer: Father please help your church to regain a scriptural sense of holiness and purity that brings honor to Your Name instead of dishonor. Restore us O Lord and recover us from our fascination with reprobate uncleanness and perversity, turning us away from worldliness and the flesh and towards the paths of righteousness. Wash us O Lord in Your rivers of living water and empower us our King in order that we may by Your Holy Spirit confront and reprove the sinful and unclean lips of perverse men instead of enabling and encouraging their wickedness by tacitly endorsing them and inviting them to speak before your assembled congregations. May we repent of the blots, stains, and manifold uncleanness that we’ve wallowed within and gleefully smeared upon our holy garments. I ask this in Your Holy Son Jesus’ precious Name, Amen.
Maranatha Lord Jesus!
CD
Pilgrim
thejunglemissionary
Bill
Manfred
abidingthroughgrace
Chris Hohnholz
CD,
I just re-watched the Tripp video. Is your sole complaint the use of the s-word? Instead of sliming Tripp with words like “potty-mouth”, “smut”, “Beavis & Butthead”, “filth”, etc. (and you have a problem with MY language?), why don’t you interact with the content of his argument? Do you believe ALL language is objectively sinful or holy? Do you believe ANY language is culturally subjective and defined? Do you not believe some words are merely impolite? Do you not believe the use of language (outside obviously sexually vulgar or damning language) is a matter of the heart and may bend and flow given the particulars of circumstance?
If you disagree with any of the above points – made explicit in Tripp’s video commentary – why don’t you interact with those, instead of emptily proclaiming him a “potty-mouth”?
Jim B.
Are you defending the word S***? Seriously. How do you not get that that word does not belong in the mouth of a Christian? How did Mr. Tripp’s references to excrement bring glory to God? How did Mr. Spurgeon and a host of other saints of the past manage to minister without using this kind of talk? I’m sick of this, “do you believe ANY language is culturally subjective, blah, blah, blah…” kind of talk. You know it’s a filthy word, everybody knows it’s a filthy word, even the heathen. Stop making excuses for sin. Scripture says let no corrupt communication come out of our mouths. References to human excrement as humor, (Mr. Tripp thought it was hilarious) is corrupt. Putting this out on YouTube for purposes of promoting a conference with John-DesiringGod-Piper is corrupt. This isn’t rocket science, Jim. Christians in general, and minsters in particular, need to get their mouths washed out by the cleansing of the blood of Christ or need to stop talking about holiness altogether.
This justification of anything-goes pragmatism is exactly why I published the post Woe Unto You. It’s a Christian-to-Laodicean translation guide (kind of like an English-to-French translation guide). It helps Christians better understand what long-held Christian terms now mean to the new, culturally-cool, hip, emergents, charismatics, and Laodiceans.
- The Pilgrim
Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes And clever in their own sight! - Isaiah 5:20-21
Whoa – this is getting way out of hand. Not only does Mr. Piper invite Mr. Driscoll to speak, but Tripp, too? Knowing that he uses the s-word in th pulpit????
Next thing you know Paul Washer will be commending Christian rappers for putting reformed theology into the worldly medium of hip-hop and appearing with them at events…. wait…. oops, nevermind.
Ingrid,
Where in Scripture (you know, our sole rule of faith and practice…) is the s-word prohibited? Are you OK with “feces”? “Excrement”? What about “poop”? “Poopie”? I use the latter two fairly regularly with a 1 and 3 year old at home. Should I repent of these? If not, what distinguishes them from the s-word, other than a subjective culture?
I’m not arguing for the s-word, and neither was Tripp. He was simply wrestling with an issue most Christians have at one time or another wrestled with: Why is some language offensive and other (similar) language not offensive? You’ve completely missed the point of Tripp’s argument. He states at the end that he would use the s-word with a brother if he believed it would edify and encourage him, and bring glory to Christ. I think he would agree that this would likely be a rare occasion.
I would challenge you (or anyone here) to demonstrate from Scripture exactly how and why Tripp sinned in using the s-word in the context in which he used it. You can’t just proclaim from on high that it is sin without using Scripture to support it.
Or you can all enjoy your echo chamber here and (again) delete my comment. (BTW – I’m keeping copies of my deleted comments. I feel I have no choice but to post them on my blog since you’ve repeatedly accused me of acting uncharitably and violating your rules. Since no one else can see the comments, I’ll have to post them and let those who care to judge for themselves.)
Censorship in the absence of clear vulgarity or incivility is cowardice. But, whatever. It’s your echo chamber.
QUOTE : “I would challenge you (or anyone here) to demonstrate from Scripture exactly how and why Tripp sinned in using the s-word in the context in which he used it. You can’t just proclaim from on high that it is sin without using Scripture to support it.”
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Jim as Ingrid pointed out would Spurgeon or others have used language like Tripp used ?…even if it was to prove a point ??
I think not !
dale
Dale,
Is Spurgeon my rule of faith and practice?
I assume you’re arguing from Col. 3:8 that Tripp allowed “filthy communication” out of his mouth? OK. Thanks for attempting to support this claim. I appreciate that!
What about the s-word is necessarily “filthy”? (I believe the greek word is aischrologia – “vile or filthy communication”.) Is “poop” filthy in the same way the s-word is?
My whole aim in defending Tripp and Driscoll is not to defend the use of this or that word, but to suggest this issue is MUCH more gray and complicated than DefCon & Co. would allow. I know I’ll be accused of being a pomo or emergent for saying that. Oh, well. To say that absolute truths exist is not the same as to say EVERY ISSUE OF CONDUCT IS ABSOLUTELY BLACK AND WHITE. Paul spends a great deal of time making this same point in regard to our freedom in Christ and not using it to tempt a brother. I’m not going to use the s-word here, because I know it would offend, not because it is inherently more sinful than “poop”.
What is “filthy communication”? As Tripp pointed out in the video, there are certain things which clearly fall into this category (e.g. damning language – you know, suggesting someone might be demonized might fall perilously close to this category – and explicitly vulgar sexual language), certain things that don’t, and certain others that fall in between. DefCon & Co. seem unwilling to grant the latter.
God Bless
Ministry Addict,
No harm intended here but having a dig at Paul Washer for talking to Rappers about Reformed Theology is way off the topic and wrong. Your being quick to judge here. Seriously. Christ prayed that we are to be in the world but not of it. Christian rappers being involved in the secular world of hip-hop….so what….as long as their lyrics are clean and God-exhalting. If so they are being a light amongst the darkness. You sound to me like the Pharisees who judged Jesus for hanging out with Prostitues and Tax-Collectors. Should I give up playing soccer cos all my team mates love casual sex, drinking and oful language? No…not at all…because anmongst that I want to tell them about Jesus. Should Christians who are involved in secular work leave their jobs because they are full of pagans?? no not at all? Therefore why should Paul Washer…a pastor not appear to talk to reformed rappers to encourage them in their faith and preach some truth to them.
Seriously you need to examine your own heart never mind being so quick to judge others. This is a disgrace.
Im in total agreement about the swearing thing though. A Christian…especially a pastor in the limelight shouldn´t be swearing.
RP
Jim do you have kids ?
Do you teach your kids that it is ok to use the S*** word ?
Do your kids use that word regularly as any other at school ?
Obviously your rule of faith is not CH Spurgeon ….I would hazard a guess it is more like Cartmen from South Park.
dale
I was okay with Paul Tripp’s comments. They made me think and challenged me to challenge what I’m taught to see if it holds up. And that was his point.
Unfortunately, Steve Camp has made it his life’s mission to rip Driscoll for the past 2 or 3 years and he has never said a kind word about him so I can’t take anything from his site as objective. SC has proven himself to hate Driscoll so much that he has lost all credibility.
Driscoll is a great preacher who is being used mightily by God. He’s made mistakes, just like you and I. Big Deal.
“Driscoll is a great preacher who is being used mightily by God. He’s made mistakes, just like you and I. Big Deal.”
I could cope better with his “mistakes” if he actually went public and ackoweldged that he had made them and changed his position.
If he has done this then great …but i don’t think he has.
For example has he changed his mind about Joel Osteen ?…recently he said that “Osteen was his brother in Christ”
How are we supposed to take a preacher seriously that cannot even see through Osteen ? and should he be pastoring 3000 people with views like this ?
thanks
dale
Dale,
How would you even know who Cartman is? Pagan…
Do you believe Tripp teaches his children to use the s-word? If that is what you took from the video, your hatred has blinded you.
Reformed Pilgrim:
Seriously? These rappers “are being a light amongst the darkness ?” Because they’ve put some theologically accurate messages into a style of entertainment that originated to promote a sinful lifestyle? Are they “reformed rappers” because they rap about reformed theology? Or have they reformed rap music itself? Most of the inner city kids I witness to think of rap as promoting violence, drugs, and self-aggrandizement.
I guess I’m somehow reminding you of a Pharisee because you believe Jesus Christ would have eaten with rappers if they were around back then, and that people like me would have criticized him for it. Terrible analogy. The Lord Jesus did not go out of his way to condone the clothes or the activities that marked the prostitute or the tax collector just so he could “reach” them. Nowhere in Scripture do we find Christ the Lord happily congratulating the intentional use of bad grammar so His disciples could slip in some Kingdom theology, while sort of making it rhyme.
When Paul Washer sees a kid with his pants sagging down, he threatens to tell his parents that he’s a homosexual to illustrate that these “cool” kids today don’t know as much as they think they do. When he spends a few hours with “reformed rappers” he tells a large crowd it’s okay that they wear their hats sideways and use a medium associated with sinfulness, because he’s spent a few hours with them, and they weren’t what he expected, and he now knows their heart. Inconsistent.
Here’s you on these rappers: “as long as their lyrics are clean and God-exhalting. If so they are being a light amongst the darkness.” Here’s you on Driscoll: “A Christian…especially a pastor in the limelight shouldn´t be swearing.” That’s a distinction without a real difference: No Christian – pastor or not – should use curse words OR wordliness – even to attract unbelievers to the Cross. Whether we’re in the limelight or not shouldn’t affect our position on what the Bible says about having fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness. (Ephesians 5:11) You accuse me of judging others because Mr. Washer just happens to be in YOUR limelight.
Jim, if you are so comfortable using the filth of the world to communicate, just what exactly was it that Jesus did for you when you were “saved”? Remember also that we shall give an account for every idle word that we speak. When you stand before the Lord of Glory will you be so bold then as you are now? Your knees will bow and your tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Do you seriously think that your filthy mouth will be tolerated in His presence? Again I ask you what changes were made in you on the day you claim to have been redeemed?
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/slicecast/2008/09/27/dr-don-kistler-on-foul-mouthed-preachers/
Everyone who wants to defend MD, first listen to this. I was so glad to hear this, I am getting blasted by some for my opionions on this. Karie, CA
If professing Christians are unable (or simply unwilling) to even delineate between Christ-honoring and Christ-dishonoring speech and claims that he needs a specific list of “no-no” words and “okay” words enumerated for him then I’d say it’s time to head back to Sunday School with the cubbies because even three-year olds fully understand this concept.
If Tripp & Driscoll’s flesh-peddling filth is representative of discourse befitting the Risen King of Glory in any professing Christian’s mind then I’d highly encourage that person to examine the reality of their faith because it may very well be demonic (see James).
I’m continually amazed that so many professing believers in our day seem to have such a hard time calling sin sin. I guess I should be used to it by now since the Laodiciean Church of the Goats and Tares is prolifically adding false converts to its ranks daily. A desire to have their ears tickled and the seeking after a false temporal “peace” and “unity” at the expense of Biblical truth are the hallmarks of the unregenerate.
In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes. (Judges 17:6)
Maranatha Lord Jesus!
CD
Driscoll said Joel Osteen was his brother in Christ? Joel Osteen? Wow, now there is wisdom and discernment at its finest, has to be right though, it came from our new young modern day “cussing” propeht Mark Driscoll, who has his seal of “apostolic” approval from John Poper, oh excuse me, I meant Piper. I know Mr. Jim B. you think the repsonses your getting are harsh. I used to think that John MacArthur was rigid and harsh, but I changed my mind. Mainly for 2 reasons, I read Our Sufficiency in Christ, it is more relevant today than when it first came out, and the second reason is that I met in about 10 years ago, and I was so surprised, he spoke directily to each of us, his eyes were clear and kind and he seemed interested in each of us he talked to and he spoke with my son who was a teenager at the time about baseball for about 5 minutes. I saw him up close and personal and his eyes revealed what a real and genuine and godly man he truly is. He is the real deal.
Jim B writes: “You’ve completely missed the point of Tripp’s argument. He states at the end that he would use the s-word with a brother if he believed it would edify and encourage him, and bring glory to Christ. I think he would agree that this would likely be a rare occasion.”
I do not think he would agree. No one can honestly claim that using profanity in a video posted on the world wide web is a “rare occasion” between a couple of brothers in Christ.
Reformed Pilgrim,
You are wrong in regards to Ministry Addicts words about Paul Washer. I will go a step further and post my letter to Paul Washer (aghast). Paul Washer was wrong, and here is why:
Dear Paul Washer,
I recently heard a message of yours on sermonaudio.com – “A Message for Reformed Christian Rappers (and the Hip-Hop Culture)” at the 2007 Legacy Conference. I started to listen to it and I couldn’t believe what I was hearing.
I am saddened by this message for the introduction unravels everything that you have stood for. Now I fear that you are no different than the rest of our “Christian” culture that says, “to win the world, you have to be like the world.” Yes, you in essence said that… I quote, “they (the rappers) are reaching a group of people that Spurgeon could not reach, that Jonathan Edwards could not reach…” What?! I thought you believed the Truth – that the Gospel is the power of God – a work of the Holy Spirit – not a matter of style and presentation from man, and that is what you have limited it to. It is almost like saying John the Baptist couldn’t reach them, Paul the Apostle couldn’t reach them – only you rappers. How man centered and absurd is that? Be honest. You want to grill everyone else… Well I am a prophet too, and you my friend bellied up to the world’s philosophy and God told you – go and proclaim and DO NOT EAT! Well my friend – you ate!!! You have either compromised in going to this event and declaring these foolish things, or you are not what you try so desperately to appear to be.
Jesus, the Apostle Paul, etc. never told us to be like the world – but to be separate from it. You can’t be light when you act like darkness. You can’t be salt when you lose your savor. There is no relationship between God and Belial. There are so many Biblical principles and precepts that you have ignored in saying what you said in regards to this evil called good. Go to the website http://www.legacyconference.org and you will be shocked like I was (maybe you just didn’t know what you were praising). I thought at first that I had typed in the wrong address. It deeply bothered my spirit. Yet you praised these men as if they were doing the will of God. God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to reach hearts not the garbage of the world – strange fire!! Absurd!!!! You ask us to have a teachable spirit and an open heart – will you do the same?
The Apostle Paul never told us to reach the world by being like the world. Notice what Paul said (it is not as if he didn’t clarify what he meant) – 1 Cor 9:20-22
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
One sees that Paul is saying that he is going to teach the Jews through the law and show the grace of God, to the Greeks he will teach the wisdom of God’s Word so as to show the grace of God, and to the barbarian is going to deal with the very rudimentary truths and then lead them to the grace of God. He didn’t mean “to the druggy I became a druggy, to the pimps I became a pimp, and to the rappers I became a rapper.” Absurd!
Think with me. If God has to use the things of the world so as to reach the world – who get’s the credit!!! What’s more, if we use the world’s tools… what is the product – worldliness (John 3:6)! I have been blessed by so much of what you have preached, but my brother – don’t throw it to the wind by compromising the very thing you say that you stand on – the power of God’s Word!
Sad to say, more than likely you will never see this email, for I am pretty sure that someone will deem it not worth your time. But I hope and pray it does come to your attention, and I hope and pray that you are what you want us to be – one who longs for truth – even if it goes against all that you thought to be right! Let God be true and every man a liar!
Because of Him,
Charles
Central Baptist Church
There seems to be a big debate on what is bad language and what is not. Perhaps someone here could show us in Scripture what WORDS are deemed SINFUL. I know scripture teaches us to avoid “corrupt communication” and speak in a maner that edifies others, but as for the quote “7 Words You Cant Say On Television” scripture is not clear. I’m not joining your party yet to bash Piper and Driscoll .
Wait…then what about Paul saying he wished certain Jewish teachers would CASTRATE themselves?
I’m not defending Mark, but man, the double standard in this room is killing me. Out of all the sins we could be worried about, we’re concerned because John is having a conference with Mark the ‘cussing’ pastor? Good grief….
Pasquale,
There is no party being held to bash anybody – only grave concern at what is happening within the body of Christ today.
Joshua,
The concern is not so much about John Piper holding a conference with Mark. The REAL issue at stake here is that the testimony of these men, the testimony of the church, and the glory of the Lord is being demeaned by those who think they can incorporate the world into the church in order to reach the unbelieving world-at-large!
And for what it may be worth to you, there is NO double standard. There is a far cry from praying imprecatory Psalms or calling for a judgment on the enemies of the cross to the depths to which a so-called minister can stand and demean his calling and the glory of God by allocating homosexual or lustful desires to the Person of Jesus Christ.
The Desert Pastor
This “Paul-talked-about-genital-mutilation-in-reference-to-circumcision” defense (excuse) is way off-target. Paul wasn’t using vile language to ingratiate himself to unbelievers or to worldly believers. He was the human instrument that the Holy Ghost picked up like a quill to speak and write the INSPIRED INERRANT INFALLIBLE WORDS of God Almighty Himself! No one really thinks that Mark Driscoll is “inspired” the way Paul was – do they????
Ephesians 5:3-4–But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.
Let’s look at a few words here:
filthiness (aischrothes)–obscenity, filthiness; baseness. Language that is used by the crude. Vulgarities.
foolish talking (morologia)–foolish talking. The word “morologia” comes from the combination of two Greek words–”moros”, which means “foolish, impious, godless.” We get the word “moron” from it. The other word, of course, is “logos,” or “word.” So what Paul is saying is that we are to avoid using the language (words) of the impious and the godless. Who would be more comfortable using the “s***” word? Someone in the church? Or someone who is “of the world?”
coarse jesting (eutrapelia)–scurrility, ribaldry, low jesting.
Oddly enough, this is the only time any of these words appear in the New Testament. Paul is telling us that we are not to use the same language as the base, crude, impious, godless of the world.
I wonder why it is that a person will get so upset if you ask him not to cuss? Why are so many movies filled with vulgarities? And why does Mark Driscoll feel the need to excite and tickle people’s ears with such language? Jim, help me out here–what do you believe is “vulgarity?” Or, do you even believe that there is a standard of what is acceptable? Or is the pulpit an “anything goes just so long as the numbers go up” deal? And how does using the base, crude, godless language of those who despise purity “edify a brother and glorify God?” Is God glorified by the “unfruitful works of darkness?” (Ephesians 5:11). I thought our communication was to be “seasoned with salt” (Colossians 4:6)?
John Gill sumarized this verse quite eloquently–
I never thought I would see the day when cussing was defended as being “edifying” to ANYONE in the true church, let alone a man of John Piper’s stature and reputation.
“I never thought I would see the day when cussing was defended as being “edifying” to ANYONE in the true church..”
Swearing and course language permeate our society today. You can’t go to Walmart without hearing it all around you in the check out line.. makes me cringe.. but then I am a senior citizen. I didn’t grow up hearing that kind of coarse language so now everytime I have to be subjected to it, it stings my ears and offends my senses. But, the younger generation doesn’t feel that sting or offense…sadly,they have grown up with it…to them, it’s ‘hip’. I guess that is the problem here when you try to point out to people, even Christians, they don’t get what is so bad about it. It is no big deal to them. We have sunk so low …what used to be considered good is now evil and we are being judgmental if we speak up about it. What is evil is called good and people consider themselves open minded in their tolerance of it. When I listen to clips of MD’s sermons, I cringe just as if I were standing in the Walmart check out lane hearing all those expletives fly. It all sounds the same to me.
The Desert Pastor:
“And for what it may be worth to you, there is NO double standard.”
Calling Jewish leaders ‘dogs’(an unclean animal to the Jews) Wishing that those who were dividing the Church on circumscision get castrated, counting all things as dung(or crap, some have argued that he might have meant s**t) for the sake of Christ. What about verses in Isaiah where God says he will rub “poop” in people’s faces? (Malachi 2:3) And NO double standard? Really? I don’t think Mark is doing this to ‘reach people’. I think he’s doing it because it’s a habit as Donald Miller put it….
I’m not trying to defend his use of swear words, but to attack Mark and John Piper for this seems pretty lame. Yes, we should ask Mark to tone it down, but the Bible does not mince words…
Joshua,
First, people can argue that Paul used swear words all day long, but they would still be wrong. Two rights NEVER make a wrong, and if the Bible is completely inspired by the Holy Spirit, HE would NEVER have included it.
Second, as you feel that the attack on Mark and John is pretty lame, then maybe you can give some help or guidance then based on the following passage.
1 Timothy 3:2, 7, “A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.”
Or, how about 1 John 2:15, “Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.”
Third, if it is ONLY a habit, then Ephesians is explicit on the use of filthy communication, even foolish jesting is included by Paul. It would be a HUGE stretch to say that the same man who wrote that even talking foolishly or in jest must not be named among us to say that there is one ounce of Scripture which allows for the use of the world’s vocabulary.
Fourth, this is not a matter of asking Mark to “tone” it down. You are correct that the Bible does not mince words, but not in the way that you are suggesting. Actually, the Bible declares that when a person has sinned they are to seek forgiveness, repent, and turn from that sin! There is no other options available to any of us when we sin.
The Desert Pastor
Rose,
Thank you for stopping by and reading. You are very much correct that what you are hearing from potty-mouthed preachers and potty-mouthed people at Wal-Mart is all the same……..no, wait a minute, maybe it’s not….silly me, potty-mouthed preachers are actually all about making them comfortable with the world’s standards while potty-mouthed people at Wal-Mart are…….
Oh, never mind, sadly, I guess they are the same!
The reason many are comfortable with language in the church is because it permeates every aspect of many homes through the medium of radio and television. The evil one was smart. If he could get Christian men and women to allow things into their homes, they would soon have no issues with it anywhere else. So, we seek to glorify God on a Sunday and our corporate worship is merely a reflection of what we have stuffed into our hearts and minds throughout the week.
I guess the conclusion is – “Garbage in — Garbage out!!”
The Desert Pastor
Charles,
Have you heard back from Paul Washer or anyone else about the letter you sent them? I’d be interested in knowing if you have.
Desert Pastor:
“First, people can argue that Paul used swear words all day long, but they would still be wrong. ”
I didn’t say Paul used swear words. He did use what we would consider ‘harsh’ language.
“1 Timothy 3:2, 7, “A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.””
1. Mark is not a Bishop(lol) 2. According to Piper and Josh Harris, his testimony is good.
3. Blameless is kind of hard to achieve. If blameless is what we’re striving for, does that mean no one is able to teach since all have sinned?
“Or, how about 1 John 2:15, “Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.””
“For God so LOVED the world…” John 3:16. Yes, I know that loving the world’s ways and loving the world are two different things. That’s why I’d rather we make sure Mark is doing the latter by talking with him, rather than make blanket statements.
“Third, if it is ONLY a habit, then Ephesians is explicit on the use of filthy communication, even foolish jesting is included by Paul”
I’m not condoning the habit, merely trying to point out that the notion Mark swears because it’s ‘cool’ or ‘it reaches people is false. You still haven’t answered my question on how swearing is filthy but verses like Malachi 2:3 aren’t….
“Fourth, this is not a matter of asking Mark to “tone” it down. You are correct that the Bible does not mince words, but not in the way that you are suggesting.”
It is EXACTLY the way I am suggesting. Paul used words and phrases that we would consider ‘filthy’ today. A lot of swearing has to do with cultural differences as well(i.e. The Japanese consider being called an idiot more perverse than words like s**t etc.)
“Actually, the Bible declares that when a person has sinned they are to seek forgiveness, repent, and turn from that sin! There is no other options available to any of us when we sin.”
I agree. Mark should repent. But so should the people who have judged his salvation. Romans 14:10
God bless!
Actually, MD is a bishop according to the Word of God. He is an overseer at Mars Hill so he IS a bishop!
Lol, yeah, I know…that was kind of a joke…
No, I have received no reply from Paul Washer’s ministry. I still appreciate much of his ministry, but I fear that he will undo much through his associations.
Also, this seriously has to stop.
“I guess I’m somehow reminding you of a Pharisee because you believe Jesus Christ would have eaten with rappers if they were around back then, and that people like me would have criticized him for it. Terrible analogy. The Lord Jesus did not go out of his way to condone the clothes or the activities that marked the prostitute or the tax collector just so he could “reach” them. Nowhere in Scripture do we find Christ the Lord happily congratulating the intentional use of bad grammar so His disciples could slip in some Kingdom theology, while sort of making it rhyme. ”
How is that a terrible analogy? The folks Jesus hung out with were worse!
Furthurmore, what about rappers like TobeyMAc who have made their message about Christ and His love. No language, no offensivness, what are we to do with them?
And with all respect Charles, your letter is a little extreme. I’ve heard Paul Washer’s sermons, and next to MacArthur, there is no one who emphasizes God’s word more than him. Why are you attacking him? Because he believes rap can be used to lead others to Christ?
Need I remind you that Paul used Greek and Pagan poets to witness to those on Mars Hill? That Jesus used a popular folk story(Lazerus andthe rich man) to convey a message to the Jews?
There is a difference between worldliness(which Paul characterizes as negative traits) and using worldy means(I.E. Jesus told us to use ‘worldy wealth’ to gain friends for heaven)
“How is that a terrible analogy? The folks Jesus hung out with were worse!”
The explanation for why it is a terrible analogy is right there in my quote. But I’ll elaborate further. In your words, Jesus “hung out” with folks who were worse. But He did not stand up in front of of others and condone any part of their dress, their mannerisms, or any of their musical preferences which originated as a way to glorify sin.
“That Jesus used a popular folk story(Lazerus andthe rich man) to convey a message to the Jews?”
Apparently you do not share Mr. Washer’s “emphasis of God’s Word,” since you are quick to label this account a popular folk story when Jesus Himself does not say it is a folk story.
“There is a difference between worldliness(which Paul characterizes as negative traits) and using worldy means(I.E. Jesus told us to use ‘worldy wealth’ to gain friends for heaven)”
Worldliness = negative traits? Really? You mean negative traits like dressing, dancing, singing/rhyming, and talking in a way that reminds people of a musical style known for gun violence, misogyny, arrogance, vulgar language, and the wasting of money on ostentatious jewelry and luxury cars? “Be not CONFORMED to this WORLD…” (See Romans 12:1-2.)
“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like…” (See Galatians 5:19-21) That is the culture which rap music is commonly known for promoting to a tee.
Can you win worldly people WITH rap music? Yes. You can win them TO rap music. That’s why you cite Toby Mac as an example before the Apostle Paul. Can the Lord win worldly people with the plain preaching of the Gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation? Yes! What they are won WITH is what they are won TO.
Paul Washer in almost every sermon rails against the use of emotional manipulation and worldly catch-phrases in the preaching of the the Gospel. The exception is somehow rappers. It’s inconsistent.
“In your words, Jesus “hung out” with folks who were worse. But He did not stand up in front of of others and condone any part of their dress, their mannerisms, or any of their musical preferences which originated as a way to glorify sin.”
True, He didn’t. But He did hang out with sinners and He DIDN’T nitpick on their clothing or music tastes either. And you haven’t explained how Christian rap glorifies sin.
‘Apparently you do not share Mr. Washer’s “emphasis of God’s Word,” since you are quick to label this account a popular folk story when Jesus Himself does not say it is a folk story.”
Jesus doesn’t say any of His other stories are parables either. The fact is that the parable of Lazerus and the Rich man was borrowed from an Egyptian folk tale which the Jewish rabbis warped to fit their own theology of the afterlife. Jesus took that famous story and turned it around on them to correct their perceptions. Please do not assume that I do not place an emphasis on God’s word. It’s judgemental of you.
“Worldliness = negative traits? Really? You mean negative traits like dressing, dancing, singing/rhyming, and talking in a way that reminds people of a musical style known for gun violence, misogyny, arrogance, vulgar language, and the wasting of money on ostentatious jewelry and luxury cars? “Be not CONFORMED to this WORLD…” (See Romans 12:1-2.)”
What about Paul using pagan poetry instead of Scripture on Mars Hill? Wouldn’t that have brought up images in the Greek’s mind of Sacrifice, Paganism, Tample Sex, etc?
You completely ignored Jesus statement about using worldly MEANS to acheive something as opposed to worldly VALUES.
“That is the culture which rap music is commonly known for promoting to a tee.”
A lot of mainline rap music does, yes. Christian rap music does not. One could argue that the Church is propogating ‘hate’ and ‘sedition’ by it’s continued theological debates….
“Can you win worldly people WITH rap music? Yes. You can win them TO rap music. That’s why you cite Toby Mac as an example before the Apostle Paul. Can the Lord win worldly people with the plain preaching of the Gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation? Yes! What they are won WITH is what they are won TO.”
Baloney. The Greeks who converted were not saved to Philosophy or Poetry, they were saved to Christ. And “What they are won with, is what they are won to.”? Show me that in Scripture. Does that mean that if one is won with the Bible, they are saved to the Bible?
“Paul Washer in almost every sermon rails against the use of emotional manipulation and worldly catch-phrases in the preaching of the the Gospel. The exception is somehow rappers. It’s inconsistent.”
I view it more as a cultural tool than emotional manipulation. Besisdes, he gets emotional enough in his sermons.
God Blesss!
“Jesus doesn’t say any of His other stories are parables either.”
What I mean by this is that Jesus never said, “Hey, this a parable I’m goning to tell you now.”
Ministry Addict,
Thank you for your very thorough answer to Joshua Cookingham. Because of your fine work, all I have to say to him is… ditto! :)
Thanks,
Charles
“all I have to say to him is… ditto! :)”
And all I have to say to you is, God bless!
And latin, cool! Anyway, sorry if I seemed to brusque, I hope everyone here continues to remain steadfast in their faith.
God bless again.
Joshua C. writes: “He did hang out with sinners and He DIDN’T nitpick on their clothing or music tastes either.”
You’re changing the issue, here. No one is claiming that Mr. Washer needs to “nitpick.” He wasn’t required to speak about them at all. He chose to speak about them. He was promoting, condoning, and encouraging these “Christian rappers” in an open public forum. The fact that we don’t find Jesus “nitpicking” individual style choices in the Bible does not mean that He encouraged and condoned people whose clothes and musical choices originated as a way to honor sin.
Joshua C. writes: “you haven’t explained how Christian rap glorifies sin.”
Actually, I have. Rap music is obviously associated with gross immorality and God-defying attitudes and lifestyles in contemporary society. Do you actually think that because people have now come up with a label – “Christian rap” – that the perception is erased? “Oh, honey, I’m not into worldly belly-dancing, anymore. I’m just into ‘Christian belly-dancing,’ now.” Romans 12 tells us to be transformed by the RENEWING of our mind, not the REMOVING of our mind.
Joshua C. writes: “What about Paul using pagan poetry instead of Scripture on Mars Hill?”
You mean what about THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD using pagan poetry, and MAKING IT INTO SCRIPTURE. The Apostle Paul’s words in the Bible are inspired and inerrant, because they are not just “his” Words. Paul is the human instrument that the Lord used to speak forth and write down His Own Words. Neither “Reformed rappers,” nor even Mr. Washer himself are speaking inspired, infallible words of God without error unless they are reciting directly from the Bible. Mr. Washer was not reciting Scripture when he promoted these “rappers.”
Joshua C. writes: “Jesus doesn’t say any of His other stories are parables either.”
And you don’t want me to assume that you do not place enough emphasis on God’s Word. To wit:
“All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:” Matthew 13:34
“And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?” Mark 4:13
“Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:” Matthew 21:33
“Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:” Matthew 24:32
Joshua C. writes: “The fact is that the parable of Lazerus and the Rich man was borrowed from an Egyptian folk tale which the Jewish rabbis warped to fit their own theology of the afterlife.”
Where is that in Scripture? Why do you believe it? Jesus said nothing of an Egyptian folk tale. Do you believe it because someone wrote it in an uninspired history book? Because someone you trusted told it to you? You didn’t live in ancient Egypt, so are you accepting it by “faith?” I’ll stick to what the Bible says. Jesus in the Bible seems to say that it happened. Maybe He meant it as parable, but we can’t say, “the FACT is,” unless the Bible speaks to it.
Joshua C. writes: “You completely ignored Jesus statement about using worldly MEANS to acheive something as opposed to worldly VALUES.”
You are misquoting Jesus. I believe the reason that God gives wealth to men is so that men may show that material worldly wealth is not their true treasure. Jesus Christ is. Thereby, they can honor Christ by showing His surpassing and supreme worth to the world.
Joshua C. writes: “And “What they are won with, is what they are won to.”? Show me that in Scripture. Does that mean that if one is won with the Bible, they are saved to the Bible?”
Yes. If one is won with the Bible, which is the Living Word, who is Christ Jesus (The Word was God. The Word was with God. The Word became flesh. See John Chapter 1), then one is won “to” Christ Jesus, Who is the Word. That’s another reason why preaching the Word of the Gospel and the Gospel of the Word is the Bible MEANS for reaching the lost, not worldly musical styles or sagging pants or sideways hats, or crotch-grabbing stage-strutting. This is not deep exegesis. It’s extremely plain from Scripture.
Consider King Saul. He was “won with” ecstatic worship. At least twice – once after Samuel anointed him king in private, and once on his way to kill David – Saul fell in with some worshiping prophets or priests. He acted just like them. He even seemed to be changed in his heart. But he went right back to his wicked ways when the wild worship was over. He was “won” by worship, so he was only “won to” worship. David, on the other hand, was won by the Word of the Lord, so he was won TO the Lord. Even when he sinned, he returned to the Lord.
Joshua C. writes: “Please do not assume that I do not place an emphasis on God’s word. It’s judgemental of you.”
Please do not be judgmental by calling me judgmental. Funny how that works.
Joshua C. writes: “I view it more as a cultural tool than emotional manipulation. Besisdes, he gets emotional enough in his sermons.”
Here we go again. Mr. Washer says it’s wrong to tell a sad story about your grandmother right before altar call time because it’s emotional manipulation, and it denies the power of the preaching of the Gospel. Yet, he condones rappers who seek to lure converts with musical and clothing choices derived from sin-glorifying origins. Inconsistent.
Thanks, Charles. By the way, I was able to listen to Mr. Washer in person this past weekend at the Deeper Conference in Woodstock, Georgia. He graciously answered questions for hours, and was very open and passionate and Biblical when dealing with people one-on-one, from what I could see and hear. I longed for someone to ask him about the “rap music” issue, but no one did. I did hear him say that he does not look at internet blogs or youtube or similar things. I know his missionary society, Heartcry, has a web site, and someone on his staff has answered questions I’ve emailed before. It is difficult not to get excited about his preaching. I doubt there are more than 1 or 2 preachers preaching today who are more gifted than Paul Washer. But that’s just my opinion. The issue here, as I’ve said, is his inconsistency concerning “Reformed rappers.”
“You’re changing the issue, here. No one is claiming that Mr. Washer needs to “nitpick.” He wasn’t required to speak about them at all. He chose to speak about them. He was promoting, condoning, and encouraging these “Christian rappers” in an open public forum. The fact that we don’t find Jesus “nitpicking” individual style choices in the Bible does not mean that He encouraged and condoned people whose clothes and musical choices originated as a way to honor sin.”
No, I’m not. You stated that Paul was condoning evry thing about the rappers, including their clothing. You changed the subject first.
“Actually, I have. Rap music is obviously associated with gross immorality and God-defying attitudes and lifestyles in contemporary society.”
No, you haven’t. And for the record, not all rap music is like that. Besides, many of the hymns we sing came from tavern songs, so I don’t see your point here.
“Do you actually think that because people have now come up with a label – “Christian rap” – that the perception is erased? ”
Yep. “To the pure all things are pure.” I think Christians can be mature enough to tell the difference between a God-honoring message and an anti-God message.
“Oh, honey, I’m not into worldly belly-dancing, anymore. I’m just into ‘Christian belly-dancing,’ now.” Romans 12 tells us to be transformed by the RENEWING of our mind, not the REMOVING of our mind.”
So are you then assuming that these Christians are stupid as well?
“You mean what about THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD using pagan poetry, and MAKING IT INTO SCRIPTURE.”
No, I mean what about Paul quoting PAGAN poets to make a point about God and His ways. Yes, now it’s Scripture, but the Holy Spirit didn’t just take over Paul’s body and force him to write the pastorals. They still retain Paul’s style of writing and mannerisms(and opinions too(1st Cor 7:25)
“Paul is the human instrument that the Lord used to speak forth and write down His Own Words. Neither “Reformed rappers,” nor even Mr. Washer himself are speaking inspired, infallible words of God without error unless they are reciting directly from the Bible. Mr. Washer was not reciting Scripture when he promoted these “rappers.””
But the Apostle Paul WASN’T QUOTING SCRIPTURE EITHER!!! He was quoting Pagan poets! They were not Scriptural, indeed, it wasn’t till the Council of Nicea that Paul’s letters were included in the Bible. Yes, Mr. Washer is not infallible, but God still speaks through people today. Paul wasn’t perfect either.
“And you don’t want me to assume that you do not place enough emphasis on God’s Word. To wit: ”
My apologies. I meant that in most cases Jesus just launched into a parable. And to be fair, the first example you put forth isn’t Jesus, it’s Matthew saying Jesus spoke in parables.
“Where is that in Scripture?”
Where is half the stuff you just quoted in Scripture? Where is this account; (Jude 1:9) in Scripture? Just because it’s not in the Bible does not make it untrue.
“Jesus in the Bible seems to say that it happened. Maybe He meant it as parable, but we can’t say, “the FACT is,” unless the Bible speaks to it.”
Not really, He tells the tale just like He does any other parable. I didn’t meant to say it as a definate and I apologize, but I’ve done research and most evidence points to Jesus borrowing a popular folk tale and turning it around on His audience.
“You are misquoting Jesus.”
Read Luke 16:9 and see if I have or not.
“I believe the reason that God gives wealth to men is so that men may show that material worldly wealth is not their true treasure. Jesus Christ is.”
Now who’s misquoting Him? That’s not what He’s saying! He’s telling us to use the WORLD’S reasources to win others to Christ.
“That’s another reason why preaching the Word of the Gospel and the Gospel of the Word is the Bible MEANS for reaching the lost, not worldly musical styles or sagging pants or sideways hats, or crotch-grabbing stage-strutting. ”
1. You have not shown how CHRISTIAN rap does that.
2. You still have not explained away how Paul was able to spread the Gospel WITHOUT using Scripture. Furthurmore, you have a double standard by saying Paul could be used by the Holy Spirit to preach via Pagan poetry, and we can’t via CHRISTIAN rap music.
“Consider King Saul. He was “won with” ecstatic worship. At least twice – once after Samuel anointed him king in private, and once on his way to kill David -”
This is irelevant. First off, Saul was never ‘won’ to the Lord, a quick view of his military exploits will tell you that.. Also, this shows how powerful that style of Praise was, since it distracted Saul from killing David(at least for awhile) Furthurmore David also worshiped estaticly before God, and when rebuked by his wife, she was struck barren.
“Please do not be judgmental by calling me judgmental. Funny how that works.”
Indeed. But you started it by assuming that I do not place as much emphasis on God’s word as Paul Washer. I also think I stated my complaint in a nicer fashion. :)
“Yet, he condones rappers who seek to lure converts with musical and clothing choices derived from sin-glorifying origins. Inconsistent.”
No more inconsistent than your belief that Paul could use Pagan poetry and we can’t use Christian rap.
Anyway, thanks for the discussion, forgive me if I caused any offense.
God Bless.
Joshua:
My position has been from the start that it is inconsistent for Paul Washer to promote “Christian rappers.” Your misguided excuse for why Mr. Washer did this: Because Jesus “hung out” with sinners. That has nothing to do with “nitpicking.” It would only be analogous if you could show Jesus telling His disciples, “Hey, it’s fine if you men need to dress, strut, and pose in the traditional ways of prostitutes, because then you’ll be able to reach some of them.” The command of the Bible is for Christian converts to COME OUT from the world and be SEPARATE.
“And for the record, not all rap music is like that. Besides, many of the hymns we sing came from tavern songs, so I don’t see your point here.”
You don’t see my point here perhaps because you’ve cupped your hands over your ears, squeezed your eyes shut, and turned your back on what is obvious, or perhaps because you are just defending an unbiblical position. “Not all rap music is like that?” Not all gothic people look and act EXACTLY the same either. Some of them even call themselves “Christian goths,” but does the world look at a boy wearing eye-liner and dressed all in black, looking like something from a bad Dracula comic, and think, “Wow, I don’t have any idea what he’s into. Let’s see what this kid has to say about eternal salvation?” You can pretend that rap music is associated with Biblical Christianity if you want, but you’ve really got to hide your head in the sand to do it. The 500+ professing Christians who went to downtown Atlanta to witness at the BET awards after hearing Mr. Washer preach could tell you that the people there screaming for autographs and the “rappers” who came out of the awards into their waiting limos are the ones who are being true to what “rap” has been about from the start: Loud bragging, street violence, drugs, sexual immorality, and sinful defiance of God. The general public, upon hearing rap music, and seeing grossly oversize clothes and gigantic gold medallions doesn’t think, “Ah, Christian theology.”
Hymns set to old tavern music? Did Mr. Washer stand up and condone the fashion choices of tavern musicians? Did he say that the old tavern tunes could reach people in the taverns that couldn’t be reached by preachers? I must have missed that part. Try to stay on topic, here.
Luke 16:9 “And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.” This verse has nothing to do with imitating sinners in order to preach the Gospel to them. In fact, Luke 16:13 tells us “No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.” The “Christian rapper” wants to serve two masters. He wants to serve either his flesh which enjoys something about rap music, or he wants to serve those who will come to the Lord if they do not have to change too much, while at the same time he professes to serve the Lord. A different inconsistency than Mr. Washer’s, but an inconsistency nonetheless.
The Holy Ghost may have used the Apostle Paul to recite pagan poetry. He used Matthew to state that Jesus was telling a parable. These Words of Scripture did not “become” Scripture because of the decisions of men at a council of men. The canonization of the Bible was the RECOGNITION by men of what had already been said by God. They did not make it the Living Word. They recognized that it ALREADY WAS the Living Word. That’s how I know that Paul and Matthew are not using ungodly techniques when they write or speak. They are MOVED by God. The Apostle Paul was INSPIRED. That’s why the sermons and letters in the Bible BECAME Scripture. His Words were inspired when they came forth. The Living Words of God were not in a state of decisional limbo between that time and the Council of Nicea.
Hey, we agree on something! (I think.) We agree that Saul was never “won” to the Lord. That was my point. He was, however, “won” to the idea of worship. The logical progression of his ecstatic worship, divorced from the Truth of God, led to his consulting a witch before he died. The logical progression of kids who are “won” with rap music will be to revel in rap music, until they are led to consulting its extremes. By your own admission, this “powerful style of praise” will only distract them from the evil it promotes…for a while.
“David also worshiped estaticly before God, and when rebuked by his wife, she was struck barren.”
That’s not what the Bible says. Michal was critical of David, but he dealt with her harshly in a way that husbands, according to the Bible, should not deal with their wives. The Bible never says she was “struck barren.” That’s a common assumption/interpretation, and she may have been “struck” barren, but it’s just as likely that David never slept with her again and that’s why she never had children after this encounter.
“To the pure all things are pure.”
Titus 1:15, out of context. We’re not talking here about the keeping of Jewish legal traditions. What fellowship does light have with darkness? Body-piercing, gothic culture, and keg parties can all be labeled “Christian” and “pure to the pure” if people are so inclined. But the reality of the associations and perceptions are not really erased. Thus, in Scripture there is a principle of separation as well as sanctification. The Lord says to avoid the appearance of evil. The Lord said it through Paul, but it’s still the Lord saying it.
“So are you then assuming that these Christians are stupid as well?”
No, I’m not saying “Christian” belly-dancers, hip-hop ‘artists,’ rappers, goths, punks, heavy metal bands, and body-piercers are stupid. I’m not even making a judgment on whether or not they’re really “Christian.” I’m saying that, Biblically, they are fools. And, according to the Bible, that’s worse.
“The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.” Proverbs 12:15
“Wise men lay up knowledge: but the mouth of the foolish is near destruction.” Proverbs 10:14
“Anyway, thanks for the discussion, forgive me if I caused any offense.”
No offense taken. It’s not my desire to offend, either. If Mr. Washer was promoting other mediums which did not so clearly originate in sinful lifestyles and behavior, we could probably find some common ground here. I might not agree with him, but I would be open to listening to him explain his position from the Scriptures. I freely admit that it is extremely likely that he knows far more than I ever will in this lifetime. What’s so glaringly inconsistent, though, is that the Apostle Paul never takes a stand for pagan poets. He never promotes them to the crowd, and he never claims that their pagan culture is theologically sound and should be used to reach people that the plain proclamation of the Gospel by preaching cannot reach.
Mr. Washer speaks with a group of moms who say they have a question for him. He braces for a deep theological controversy. Instead, they want to know if they can take their daughters to a Britney Spears concert. “What do you think?” they ask. He’s aghast. “I think you’re all going to hell,” he says. (He says this somewhat jokingly, but he’s got a serious point.)
He tells a kid with his pants sagging down that he’s unwittingly portraying himself as a homosexual.
When teen-aged boys hug teen-aged girls at a funeral, he threatens to tear off the boys’ arms and beat them with the bloody stumps, because “God has not ordained that comfort come from you, young man!”
He mocks an undercover street preacher as a “Serpico-for-Jesus” because Mr. Washer himself was used of God to reach male prostitutes while dressing normally. (I cheered when I heard this, because I wear the same clothes when I go to the “hood” that I wear when I go to my office.)
Then, he says rappers can reach people that more conventional preachers can’t. Inconsistent.
JC – MA,
Thanks for the dialogue here on PW and his tacit endorsement of “Christian” rappers.
It seems plain enough to me that in this instance PW has fallen into the trap of pragmatism, which is an area in which he is usually consistent and impeccable. This instance, like Piper’s recent lapses in judgment, don’t cause me to suddenly believe that PW (or Piper) are suddenly apostate, but it does serve as an example that even the best of men are men at best.
As MA has correctly discerned PW is inconsistent on the point of Christian rap/rappers so-called. Let’s be in prayer for our brother PW that the Lord of Hosts would strengthen him against the wiles of the enemy for those who are standing the boldest and staunchest for the truth are often those whom the wicked one assails and buffets most relentlessly.
In Christ,
CD
Agreed. Thanks, CD, for your input.
I appreciate the desire to be holy by many here but I don’t get a sense of gentleness or kindness. Reading through the harsh, judgmental, arrogant language (which is what we really need to look out for here) here made me cringe.
Regarding the thought that bad grammar is somehow evil, I’m not sure were you get this from. There are actually many instances in the Old Testament where incorrect grammar is used. Does this mean that the Scriptures are not inerrant or inspired? No! Absolutely not! The Bible was written in the language of the people of the day. It was written for educated and uneducated people. Regarding rap, I would not condemn it on the grounds of grammar or to be consistent I would have to say that the Bible isn’t inspired.
Also, words like s*** are what they are because of our cultural usage. It’s a shocking word that isn’t, and shouldn’t be used flippantly. Strikingly, in the OT God uses words that in the culture would be our equivalent to s***. Why would he use such a word? Because it would have gotten the attention of the people.
God often uses imagery that people may find offensive. He speaks about Israel in Jeremiah like a prostitute with her legs spread. Why use such imagery and language? Because the situation called for it. This world is nasty and people do nasty things and sometimes shocking language is the only language that accurately describes the situation. To point out how small Egypt is in the eyes of God God uses language where He says that Egypt is so beneath His notice He would pee on it. Our English translations often shy away from the provocative language and imagery used in the Bible.
Regardless, anyone who has an issue with Piper, Driscoll, or Tripp should confront them before they slander this men online. I think the church needs to clean up it’s slander and gossip more than it’s “potty mouth”. Non-Christians will take notice of that and God will be glorified.
johnbo,
Aren’t you guilty of being judgmental here by judging other people’s judging? How strangely inconsistent of you.
And you “cringe” at what you perceive to be a lack of “gentleness or kindness” yet you wink at the use of scatological language from the pulpit, because the Bible uses strong language? Amazing!
Are you then claiming that Driscoll and Tripp are using the word s*** under divine inspiration directly from God Himself? That’s what the OT is, johnbo, living words straight from the mind of God. Your comparison here is simply atrocious and absurd on its face.
Look, I’m all for preaching the Bible along with all its “provocative imagery”, but there’s no need to add irreverent and childish shock value scatological references for the sole purpose of seeming “hip” or “relevant” or for amusing one’s audience (i.e. tickling their ears). It’s neither hip nor relevant, it’s just plain old fashioned foolishness being uttered by fools and it dishonors God Almighty.
In Christ,
CD
P.S. – did you “confront” anyone in this thread or any of the DefCon contributors before making your public accusations of slander online? No? Interesting…still more inconsistency from you.
Sadly, Steve Camp retracted his rightful blistering assessment of Mark Driscoll a few months ago:
http://stevenjcamp.blogspot.com/2009/03/mark-driscoll-on-abc-nightline-face-off.html
I interacted with Camp on this personally after he heard from someone that I blogged on his cowardly backpeddaling.
He now gives credence to Driscoll as Piper always has…lip service to disliking the filthy language, but believing that Driscoll is a brother in Christ and has much to teach Steve. Camp fell into the erroneous thinking that Driscoll merely needs a bit of guidence and maturity. This is absolutely WRONG. A pastor is supposed to be self-controlled, bearing Fruit of the Spirit and able to teach (1Tim. 3, Titus 1)…neither things Driscoll has.
I’m glad that John MacArthur came out AFTER Camp’s retraction and new-found friendship with the enemy of the Gospel and reiterated what I have already stated: Driscoll’s problem isn’t immaturity or need of discipleship: its a spiritual and character issue.
Romans 14:10.
Done deal, end this now.
Are you judging me, Laura?
Remember that a text without a context is a pretext for a proof text.
:o)
In Christ,
CD
Laura,
The Bible is clear that we are to mark those who walk contrary to the Word (Rom 16:17 & 2 Thess 3:14). Judging brothers – per Romans 14:10 – is not the same thing; that has to do with judging their status as saints on disputable matters as outlined in Romans 14:1-9.
Peace in Christ – no other blood will do.
It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.
Philippians 1:15-18 ESV
Paul explicitly says that it doesn’t really matter how the gospel is being preached as long as it’s being preached, that’s all he cares about. The motives come second to the message.
Let me make a few things clear right away so there is no doubt as to where I am coming from or what I want to communicate.
1, I in no way condone swearing, it’s a symbol of poor self-control and of a desire to conform to the world that the Bible warns against in 1 Peter.
2. I am a teacher by spiritual ability, and nothing angers me faster than false doctrine and claiming to be God-led when you are really leading others astray. (Westboro Baptist Church etc.)
With that very clear, I want to make my point: Get over it. Seriously? This article is on the same level as swearing. Slandering a pastor with analogies to Beavis and Butthead, calling him a smut-peddler, putting his position in quotes to emphasize your belief that he is fake, and writing an entirely slanderous article about him is equally as sinful as swearing. Plank in your own eye and all that.
Furthermore, what makes talking about sex in the context of marriage wrong? God designed sex as a beautiful thing and the ultimate act of love between two individuals who have become one flesh and one spirit. Why would talking about sex provoke all of this slander? Attempting to hide sex in the closet and never talk about it in church is foolish. That is a sad attempt to create a facade that the church, and by extension God, has no part in sex. That is entirely false. A noble cause — avoiding conformity to the world — is taken to ridiculous, even legalistic lengths by avoiding things that the world has abused. I do agree that his way of addressing the topics of sex was immature (not sinful) in that it may have caused some in the congregation to stumble. However, condemning John Piper for simply including Driscoll and Paul Tripp in his conference is equally as immature.
Condemning Driscoll and Tripp as false teachers is rash and foolish. While I admire the commitment to Biblical truth and the rooting out of false teaching, the lengths that this article go to are ridiculous and unnecessary. While Driscoll and Tripp are immature in some of their sermons, their reaction to Rob Bell’s (legitimately) heretical statements were much more mature than this article. I commend you for your love of truth and I pray you continue in it, but in the future please avoid slander and legalism. Instead of leading people astray, it pushes them away.
Thanks for sharing your opinion, Stuart.
In Him,
CD