Actually, as much as I dislike Obama, I agree with him here. Jesus teaches in the Sermon on the Mount “Do not resist an evil person.” The context is to a believer in the midst of persecution. That doesn’t work nor can it be applied to the US Gov’t. His point is that you cannot take a book meant for a believer and apply it to the entire nation. His problem is he uses it as an excuse to avoid making judgement calls on wicked practices like abortion. As if one has to believe in the Bible to see how vile that practice is.
Why does he call himself a Christian if he thinks this way about the Bible?
It’s election time, Vivianes. Haven’t you noticed that at every election time all the candidates become “Christians” until after the elections? The only time they’re “Christians” again is at the next election.
– The Pilgrim
There is no unified Christian Voice people. If so, we wouldn’t have a gazillion Christian Denominations. Everybody (seemingly) rightly divides the word of truth differently. Attack Obama as you will, the fact is everyone has a right to their opinion. Secondly, I am a christian and I don’t believe in STRONG arming people into the faith. So to that end, Christiantiy should be for those who wish to seek (of their own accord) the will of God for their lives. Seperation of Church and state is brilliant. Look at Pat Robertson and all the fundamentalist haters in the church. I dont want these loons speaking for me.
There is no issues here with everybody having a “right” to their opinion. What is in question is does that “right” allow a true believer of the Lord Jesus Christ to willfully disobey the commands, precepts, and principles found in God’s Word?
Simple answer – NO!
My “right” to have an opinion about Barack does not supercede (for example) the fact that God calls abortion – murder! Therefore, for me to support such a man would be to go against the clear commands of Scripture not to associate with the unfruitful works of darkness.
The Desert Pastor
Desert Pastor, God never calls abortion murder. Your personal interpretation of some passages of scripture implies that abortion is murder. But, you are wrong. God never called abortion murder. Please don’t put words into God’s mouth.
Job 10:18–Wherefore then hast thou brought me forth out of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost, and no eye had seen me!
The Hebrew word translated “given up the ghost” (or, New King James, “perished”), literally means, “to expire, die, perish, give up the ghost, yield up the ghost, be dead, be ready to die.” Question: If something dies, doesn’t that mean it had to have been alive?
Job 31:13-15–“If I have despised the cause of my male or female servant when they complained against me, what then shall I do when God rises up? When He punishes, how shall I answer Him? Did not He who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same One fashion us in the womb?”
Psalm 139:13–For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother’s womb.
It is clear from these passages that it is God who creates the child in the womb.
Psalm 22:10–I was cast upon You from birth. From My mother’s womb You have been My God.
Matthew 22:32–“God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”
Since Scripture does not contradict Scripture, it is clear from these two verses that since God is the God of the LIVING, and YHVH was the God of David while David was still in his mother’s womb, that the child inside the womb is indeed a living human being. So when you kill a human being–even in the womb–God considers that to be murder.
Fourpointer, you are being silly, and I DO appreciate your scriptural and intellectual gymnastics here. They are good, and I actually agree with your conclusions. BUT, that does not change the fact that God does not condemn abortion as murder in the Bible. Your interpretation of scripture condemns abortion. Why can’t you just admit that?
And, as a post script that I’m sure will really boil some people’s blood – I think it is more than silly to base your science on poetry. Maybe that should be a new thread, though.
Fourpointer, thank you for sharing your thoughts from Scripture. You are correct but sadly there are many who will try to create their own “mental gymnastics” in order to question (just as the evil one did in the Garden of Eden), “Yea, did God REALLY say that?”
Of course, the word “abortion” is not found in Scripture so that must mean that it is ok to kill unborn babies. Because the 11th commandment does not state, “Thou shalt not forcibly remove a baby from the womb of the mother all except the head and then jam a pair of medical instruments into the back of the head and suck out the infant’s brains” – then it must be acceptable! What hypocrisy and lack of understanding of Scripture which is far more than poetry, it the rule and guide for ALL that pertains to life and godliness.
jimfox, I expect that because euthanasia of old people is also not explicitly stated as wrong in the Bible (due to the lack of the word) that you would have no problem with your children (if you have any) taking you for a final trip to the doctor once you become a doddering old man and no longer a help to society but a hindrance.
There are MANY other examples we could use to prove how insidious your attempts to disprove the validity of God’s Word actually is, but we will leave it there for the time being. If you wish to denigrate the Word of God and commands found within the pages of Holy Writ, I am sure you will find a majority of people who would be willing to agree with you.
now YOU are being silly. I stated in my earlier post that I believe abortion is murder and it is a terrible, terrible thing for all involved. Don’t try to paint me as a baby-murdering-liberal.
Here is the real issue I am bringing up. Fourpointer said, “the Bible says…” When you add on the doctrine that the Bible is inerrant (and, I’m not arguing against that, either) and anyone who disagrees must not be regenerate – well, that is recipe for spiritual abuse and abuse of power. It was nice how you also threw in that allusion to the garden of eden. All this adds up to anyone who disagrees with you is not a true Christian, is wrong, and with your post, is in league with the devil.
Why? Because their interpretation of scripture is different than yours. Because, the Bible does not say what fourpointer says it says. It is his interpretation. So, no one gets to just say “the Bible says!!!” when it doesn’t. I am defending and contending against heresy right there.
Now, poetry. In the 11th grade (sometimes 10th), one is usually educated about poetry and literary tools that can also be called “poetic language.” I hate to have to spell it out – I’m not trying to insuate you are uneducated or dumb. But, you didn’t even read my post correctly. I never came even CLOSE to inferring that Scripture isn’t far more than poetry. I said poetry is poetry. And, our holy scriptures contain poetry – lots of it. So, don’t confuse poetry with a science manual. THAT is hypocrisy and not understanding Scripture. Truly. Honestly. If you can’t tell what is poetry or poetic language, than you quite literally do not understand scripture. Job and Psalms are poetry. They are. They are God inspired, beautiful, truth and life giving Scripture – but they are still poetry. Not science manuals. “Giving up the ghost” is poetic language. It’s a euphemism for death. Here’s the scary thing to me. you can’t even admit that Psalms is poetry. You can’t admit that a euphemism is poetic.
Now, why should we trust your understanding of Scripture if you can’t admit simple truths? And, I see your straw man building – you have already accused me of saying God’s word is invalid – which I have not. You have already accused me of denigrating God’s Word. Which I did not. You have, though. Don’t come after me as some unregenerate heretic who is relativizing truth or reducing God’s Word. All I have done is said poetry is poetry. And, the Bible does not say that abortion is murder – but, a pretty darn good interpretation of Scripture could/would/shold lead one down that path.
I am merely sticking up to a bully. I am defending and contending. I am sticking up for Scripture – sola scriptura, not sola your interpretation of scriptura.
You seem to be contradicting yourself a bit here. In your original comment you said, “God never calls abortion murder. Your personal interpretation of some passages of scripture implies that abortion is murder. But, you are wrong. God never called abortion murder. Please don’t put words into God’s mouth.” Then you said, “God does not condemn abortion as murder in the Bible. Your interpretation of scripture condemns abortion.” Yet in your last comment you said, “I stated in my earlier post that I believe abortion is murder and it is a terrible, terrible thing for all involved.” Jim, you never said anywhere that you consider abortion to be murder (Unless you posted another comment that hasn’t gone through moderation yet). So if you believe abortion to be murder, upon what do you base that conclusion?
Also, at the end of your last comment, you said, “the Bible does not say that abortion is murder – but, a pretty darn good interpretation of Scripture could/would/should lead one down that path.” So, help me out here. Do you believe that “an interpretation of Scripture should lead us” to conclude that God considers abortion murder—or would that just be “sola our interpretation of scriptura?”
That said, would I be correct in assuming you do not believe in the Trinity because that word is not in the Bible? Because the Bible does not come right out and say, in exactly these words, “Jesus is God?” The Bible doesn’t come out and say “Thus saith the LORD–pornography is a sin.” Does that mean it isn’t? Tell me Jim, how do we make biblical decisions concerning things that are not explicitly mentioned in the Bible? Things like racism, praying to dead saints and/or Mary, etc?
Now, granted, the words “abortion is murder” do not appear in exactly that form, with a nice, big red bow on top. Would that it were that easy! But we also have to remember something else: that although the Psalms may have been written in the form of poetry, would you not agree it is still the word of God? That it is God who forms us in the womb? Would you not agree that the Psalms were spoken by God, and for a reason? That is was not merely the flowery language of man, but words given to us by God Himself? Are they less important simply because of the form in which they were written? Or maybe God was wrong when He said, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you” (Jeremiah 1:5). Maybe Paul was mistaken when he said that God called him from his mother’s womb (Galatians 1:15).
Out of curiosity may I ask what, in your view of scripture, does the Bible say “is murder”? Anything? Something? Nothing?
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