Respectfully,
- The Pilgrim

You may “feel” as though you have found the truth, but I wonder how much you studied the claims of these so-called “angels” concerning God and His Christ.

Do you believe that there was a time when Jesus was not God? Or even a time when Jesus did not exist? Do you believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers? Do you believe that we can be a God like God Himself? These are all doctrines taught by Joseph Smith, and are still being taught by the LDS today.

Jesus said that you must know God and His Christ to have eternal life (John 17:3). The Mormon church does not know the true God, they preach a false Christ (Matthew 24:24) and a false gospel (Galatians 1:8-9)> I would urge you to come out of Mormonism and find the truth. We will help you in every way we can so you may know the truth.

I ask these questions because I don’t want you to think that I am putting words in your mouth, or that I am trying to say taht you believe something you don’t. I know that not every Mormon believes exactly the same things–that is why all the questions.

You are right about one thing though–one reason I want to know what you believe is so that I can show you how you have been deceived by the LDS system. You’re not alone, millions of people have been led astray by what they have been taught by the LDS. It is a system built on deception, and one that keeps its followers in the dark about its past (and about many of its present teachings).

But, if you no longer want to have this discussion, no one here is forcing you to continue. You are free to leave any time you want, although I hope you won’t leave until you see the truth for yourself.

- The Pilgrim

I do remember seeing that list at one time. I remember thinking how it was nothing more than putting the yolk of another law on men’s backs. I also remember the parable that Boyd K. Packer had published in Gospel Principles.

Adrianne, that is one of the major differences between you and I. People like Pilgrim and myself believe that when we stopped putting any trust in any of our works to pay any of our debt that we owed to God, and instead trusted in His finished work on the Cross alone to make the payment for our sins, our debt was wiped out–He became sin for us, we became His righteousness (2nd Corinthians 5:21). Yet the LDS would say that Jesus only makes up the difference of where we fail to perfectly keep His commandments (as outlined in Gospel Principles). Does that sound like a fair assessment? If not, then feel free to correct me.

Adrianne, here’s the thing, and I think it’s one place where our two views on faith don’t jive–If you follow the LDS belief on the Atonement, then you believe that Christ atoned for EVERYBODY’S sins, whether they believe in Him or not. And because of that atonement, EVERYBODY will be resurrected to some type of glory, whether telestial, terrestrial, or celestial. That because Christ paid for every single person’s sins, the worst that can happen to someone is to suffer for a few years after they die, but that eventually they will be released from their suffering, correct? If that is not what you believe, I apologize.

So I would like to ask you this–what do you believe about Hell? Is it real? Is it eternal? And who goes there (if anyone)?

P.S. You said you slip in some times; did you know that if you stumble in just one point, though, you’re guilty of the whole law? (James 2:10).

To better assist you in understanding the LDS stance on the faith and works issue, I direct your attention to pages 303-304 of the LDS published and distributed Gospel Principles (1997 edition). It outlines Mormon salvation in 17 “simple” steps (plus a bonus step):

1. We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ.

2. We must receive the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

3. We must receive the temple endowment.

4. We must be married for time and eternity.

In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to–

1. Love and worship God.

2. Love our neighbor.

3. Repent of our wrongdoings.

4. Live the law of chastity.

5. Pay honest tithes and offerings.

6. Be honest in our dealings with others and with the Lord.

7. Speak the truth always.

8. Obey the Word of Wisdom.

9. Search out our kindred dead and perform the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.

10. Keep the Sabbath day holy.

11. Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.

12. Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.

13. Have family and individual prayers every day.

14. Honor our parents.

15. Teach the gospel to others by word and example.

16. Study the scriptures.

17. Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.

Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow his direction in our individual lives.

I hope their teaching on the subject helps you better understand where they’re coming from and clears up some of the confusion.

When in doubt, refer to their own writings and publications.
- The Pilgrim

According to noted Mormon sociologist and historian Armand L. Mauss:

He told the audience and panelists how he grew up believing he was Lamanite and now felt ‘overwhelmed with the surprise coming from science … We don’t know where the Book of Mormon took place. We don’t know where the Lamanites are. If we don’t know who the Lamanites are, how can the Book of Mormon promise to bring them back? It’s an identify crisis for many of us that [must] be understood’ (“Reframing the Book of Mormon”, Sunstone 131 [March 2004], p. 19.)

In your most recent replies, you have tried to convince us that you do not put any stock in your own works to have anything to do with your salvation. But in previous comments, you have said, “But thanks to Jesus Christ for atoneing for my sins, I know that He will be my mediator in the end, and he can make up the difference AS LONG as I have done my best to do my part.” That makes it sound as though you believe Jesus will only atone for your sins if you do as much as you can, a line of thought that parallels 2nd Nephi 25:23–”for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.”

Just so we are clear, and we understand you better, do you believe that Jesus “fills in the gaps” where you fall short, or does He save you independently of any effort on your part? In other words, does He asve you in order to set you apart for you to do good works, or does He save you because you do good works?

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=9773fc3157a6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

he explains it better than I do. I’m only an 18 year old girl. He’s a little better with words.

And I repeat, AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN that I have never said that my works save me!!!!!!!! I have told you, time and time again, that the Atonement saves me. I am judged of my works though. But I am saved by the Atonement.
Make sense? I sure hope so.

I hope this helps. Does this make it any clearer?
- The Pilgrim

FOURPOINTER: No matter how often I go to church and listen to the teachings of the leaders, it will never mean anything unless I develop my own testimony. That is what I have done. So in answer to your question, no, it’s not my leaders speaking through my mouth. It’s the testimony of my own heart, and the fact that it echoes the words of my teachers is only proof to me that it is true. How many bishops and teachers have left the Mormon church. Sadly, quite a few. Does that mean that I will? Never. I believe what I believe because I have sought out my own testimony through prayer and study.

You seem to be upset because you believe “that so many people spend their whole lives trying to tell me that what I believe is evil.” Yet, you do the very same thing by claiming that we believe that a person can say a little prayer and go on in continual sin and still be saved. I would ask you this: is that what you have observed, or is that what you have been told by your ward/stake president, or teachers, or bishop? Because that is not what we believe.

It would appear as though you have not read what we have actually written. The apostle Paul said that “by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified” (Galatians 2:16). However, James told us in James 2:19, “You say you believe God is one, you do well. Even the demons believe and tremble.” So it is obvious from Scripture that a man cannot simply believe in a bunch of facts and be saved. Salvation is wrought by Christ, and we gain that salvation by repenting of our sins and any self-righteousness we strive for, and follow our Lord Jesus Christ and receive His righteousness. But the works we are to do–they do not come before salvation, they do not lead to our salvation, they are a result of our salvation.

Besides, how many “good works” did the repentant thief do as he hung on his cross (see Luke 23/a>)?

Respectfully,
- The Pilgrim

The same can be likened to a man trying to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven who has done so much wickedness. As payment, God would cast him into Hell. However, because the servant fell down and begged of God to have patience and let him work out his debt, God had compassion and was merciful to him.
We must do the same thing. We will always be in debt to our Lord, but like this man we must be willing to work out our debt. Just as God forgave this man, He will truly forgive me.
I am not trying to boast of my good works. I am trying to work out my own debt to my Savior for atoneing for my sins.
Please do not characterize me incorrectly when this has been what I have explained to you.

P.S. Here’s some quotes “taken right out of the Bible.”

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)

I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly. (Galatians 2:21)

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us . . . (Galatians 3:13)

But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. (Galatians 3:23-24)

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. (James 2:10)

For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under the law but under grace. (Romans 6:14)

For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment. (Isaiah 64:6)

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ . . . (Romans 5:1)

. . . a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified. (Galatians 2:16)

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But The Righteous Man Shall Live By Faith.” (Romans 1:16-17)

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being made justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:5-7)

Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. (Galatians 3:23-24)

But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through Faith. (Romans 3:21-25)

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. (Romans 3:28)

. . . for “Whoever Will Call Upon The Name Of The Lord Will Be Saved.” (Romans 10:13).

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness. (Romans 4:5)

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 10:4)

So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law or by hearing with faith? Even so, Abraham Believed God And It Was Reckoned To Him As Righteousness. (Galatians 3:5-6)

The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham . . . (Galatians 3:8)

. . . not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith . . . (Philippians 3:9)

Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if the law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. (Galatians 3:21)

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound . . . (Romans 7:6)

Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for “The Righteous Man Shall Live By Faith.” (Galatians 3:11)

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. – Jesus Christ (John 3:16)

I am no longer posting on this website as I have become very frustrated and angry. It is very unsettling to know that so many people spend their whole lives trying to tell me that what I believe is evil. I would like to, however, finnish off with this note.

” …I do not aboast in my own strength, nor in my own wisdom; but behold, my joy is full, yea, my heart is brim with joy, and I will rejoice in my God.
12 Yea, I know that I am nothing; as to my strength I am weak; therefore I will not boast of myself, but I will boast of my God, for in his strength I can do all things; yea, behold, many mighty miracles we have wrought in this land, for which we will praise his name forever.” (Alma 26: 11-12) ((Taken right out of the Book of Mormon, another testament of Jesus Christ.))

I hope one day you will understand the grace of God for what it is–a free gift that we could never earn. And while you may think you’re not trying to impress God or boast in your works, that is what we do in trying do “earn” our salvation by our works. I don’t mean to sound like you were lying when you said that wasn’t what you were trying to do. But when you get right down to it, that’s what we all do when we try and pay off any part of our debt on our own.

The only works that will last for all eternity are those that God has prepared for us to do–not the ones we choose to do outside of Christ. That is what 2nd Corinthians chapter 5 and 1st Corinthians chapter 3 are talking about–when those who were saved by the grace of God and the Cross of Jesus Christ are rewarded for their service to God.

I think that no matter how much either of us say and how many scriptures we use to back up our beliefs, neither of us are going to be swayed. For this reason, I am going to call it done. I have done what I wanted which is to take my stand as a Mormon and display what we truly believe which is not evil- I have done my part, and whether people come here and believe me or not, I have done what I came here to do. People seem to judge mormons without knowing the full extent of what we believe, and I wanted to be sure that people actually understood the truth. I’ve done my best to make my point, but I can’t force my belief on anyone just as you can’t force your belief on me .
But before I am done, I would just like to clear one thing up: I do not try to do good works because I want to be able to boast of myself. I don’t do them so that God will HAVE to let me into His kingdom. I do them because I would rather live eternally happy in His kingdom than some place else. I have to be worthy to be in His presence though. With good works comes joy- I am a living testament of that. I feel good when I do good, and I feel bad when I do bad. That is in no way being self righteous.

I do not boast of myself. I boast of my God.

You said, But we must live our lives striving to do our best, and in the end God will judge our hearts. On the contrary, God will judge our righteousness. If we are seeking to be righteous by our own deeds, we will fail miserably, as you pointed out.

Jesus said, “For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:20). And who had more “works” to boast of than the Pharisees? Therefore, we must perform more righteous works than the scribes and Pharisees, or we will not see Heaven. Can any of us say we have done that? No, we can’t–the very point Jesus was making. Which is why Paul told us “knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified” (Galatians 2:16).

Now, here comes the argument–”Why did James say that ‘faith without works is dead?’” For this reason: a faith that does not produce works of righteousness is like grapes rotting on the vine–they’re there, but they are no use to the owner of the vineyard. You see, we are not saved by doing “good works.” Any works we do in trying to make ourselves righteous is nothing more than a repeat of the first rebellion against God, when Lucifer said, “I will exalt my throne above the stars of God” (Isaiah 14:13). It is the same reason God was displeased with Cain’s offering–it was the work of Cain’s hand, and not a gift of faith (like Abel’s). What that person is saying is, “My works are better than Christ’s righteouness. I will do so many good things, God will have to let me into His kingdom.”

However, Paul told us “by grace you have been saved through faith, and that is not of yourself. It is a gift of God, and not of works lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, how to reconcile faith and works? Look at the next verse. “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” What that means is, before the foundation of the world, God prepared works for His people to do. Then, in His timing and for the good pleasure of His will, He saved us, gave us Christ’s righteousness, so that we could do the works He prepared for us. See that? We don’t do the works to earn salvation. That’s self-righteousness. Rather, we do the works that display the love of Christ (and the fruit of the Spirit) in us.

As far as Christ’s instructions to the rich young ruler–he was not telling the man what he had to DO, but showing him how far short he fell in trying to keep the law (the very thing the young man boasted in).

In the Book of James, which actually predicates that merely claiming to be a Christian does not make us children of God! We’re not Christians just because we say we are. Many people claim to have faith, but they have never trusted Christ alone for salvation, entering into a personal relationship with Him. Unless the fruits of a living faith are evident in the life the claim of faith is a false one. People with dead faith substitute words for works. They speak the language of a Christian. They talk the talk but do not walk the walk, for they are still dead in sin. Dead men do not walk. A truly converted man will be a changed man. “If any man be in Christ he is a new creature, the old things have passed away all things have become new.
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only… For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also”. “This will be evidence of the fruit of his works after salvation, not in obtaining”. No fruit in one’s life after salvation then one might need to reevaluate their walk and eternal future, I would think.
A great example is In the Book of Hebrew 6:4-7, whereas people actually witnessed the works through and of the Holy Spirit but did not partake in the spirit. Basically, they set, watched and wanted God’s blessing without acknowledging true salvation. 4.For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.7. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: One who is truly saved will have the evidence of fruits and the false convert will not, but obtaining works, and good needs to obtain or maintain salvation is wrong. One has to ask themselves how prayers, works into the church, worshipping statues, or kissing the hand of a church elders does it take to obtain salvation. How many sins, misdeeds or rebellious acts does it take for one to lose their salvation; a gift from God in which the never earned to start with? Have you ever wondered why in some, (the majority of charismatic), churches how when one supposedly loses their salvation that they never make the backslider to be resaved and baptized? Simple, Lord Jesus can’t be renailed to the cross….

Jesus is Lord

LML

I respect your testimony. I appreciate you sharing it with me. And while I do not agree with all of your beliefs, I do agree with some of them. These are the things I agree with you on:
That there is one true and eternal God, unchangeable, unique, all-powerful.1
That this one true God created all things; there is nothing that exists anywhere that He did not bring into existence.2
Some of the other things that you said I believe in to an extent, however we do have differences, and I know you know that.

If you look at any two religions, there will always be differences. While I believe that many have a lot of the truth, it is my belief that the church which I belong to bears the whole truth. Although the members of it are never perfect, we strive daily to follow Christ.
Thank you for sharing your testimony. This is mine:

I believe that God prepared a plan for us, and gave us the choice to follow it. That plan could not be carried out without the atonement of a perfect man: Jesus Christ. God loved His children so much that He sent His Only Begotten Son to atone for our sins and die for us that we might live. However, there is adversity in all things. That was all part of the plan. We would have to make our own choices in life. But those of us who have ever lived on this earth, are on this earth, or ever will be on this earth made that decision to come to earth any way, knowing that it would be hard and that we would have to prove our worthiness to return to Him. It is possible, no matter how human we are. We will all make mistakes, but we came here because God has a body, and we did not, and He was exalted, and we were not. He created this plan so that His children could become like Him. I know that when I make mistakes, it’s okay. I can repent because of the atonement, and I can strive to be better every single day. In the end, God will judge my heart because of His son’s atonement. Jesus will be my mediator. This is God’s plan.

We believe that God is the one and only God. We do not worship Jesus Christ or the Holy Ghost as God. We believe they are part of the Godhead, of which God is the head. To demonstrate this, you may read John 20:17. This is after Jesus Christ has died. Mary is weeping. He comes to Mary, and when she realizes that it is Jesus Christ, He says to her: Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God… Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God. That is what we believe. He has a physical body, as well, just as God does.

2 Nephi 29:6-8 says:
6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?
7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?
8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

Finally, the scripture you mentioned that states that we can all become Gods is true and correct. We were sent to earth to become like God. Does that not mean we can become Gods ourselves? Not Gods of His world, but creators of our own. That is our belief.

I appreciate your concern that I have been misled, but I have determined my own testimony for my own self. After much prayer, fasting and scripture study, I know that the spirit cannot lie. I know that it is true, and I am thankful for it. What we preach is love. We learn of service. We learn to love our neighbor. If this is not truth and this is evil, then please correct me. But as Matthew 7:16 says: Ye shall know them by their fruits…