As are most things of this type, it’s based on a lie. I have a letter from PC & D which reads in part this way:

In the church body, controversy often exists in matters of doctrine. However, we the members of Phillips, Craig & Dean do believe in the existence of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit – the Three in One.

We also have chosen to agree and affirm the following statements of faith, which we agreed upon when we first began with Star Song in 1992. It is the Apostles’ Creed, which believers have declared and stood upon for centuries.

The Apostles’ Creed

(This creed is called the Apostles’ Creed not because it was produced by the apostles themselves but because it contains a brief summary of their teachings. It sets forth their doctrine “in sublime simplicity, in unsurpassable brevity, in beautiful order, and with liturgical solemnity.” In its present form it is dated no later than the fourth century. More than any other Christian creed, it may justly be called an ecumenical symbol of faith. This translation of the Latin text was approved by the CRC Synod of 1988.)

I believe in God, the Father, almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit
And born of the virgin Mary,
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
We crucified, dead and was buried;
He descended to hell.
The third day he rose again from the dead.
He ascended to heaven
And is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty.
From there he will come to judge the living and the dead
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
The holy catholic* church
The communions of saints
The forgiveness of sins,
The resurrection of the body,
And the life everlasting. Amen.

*catholic (small cap “c”) here refers to “of or pertaining to the whole Christian body or church.”

Please take a deep look into the lyrics of Phillips, Craig & Dean songs to find each song is based on scripture. We hold fast to the Holy Bible, and our music ministry and personal walks are grounded in these truths.

- The Pilgrim

Agreed.

Honestly, I think it’s an interesting discussion and not an issue I’ve seen raised before. It was never my intention to detract from the apology. I just thought I’d add my two cents, which kind of turned into 2 bucks. :o)

Also I would like to say that the reason I initially posted was because everyone was saying”oh thanks for telling us, we won’t listen now” as if just by Desert pastor saying it was wrong that they should stop listening. He addressed this in his follow up to “a brief apology”. We need to follow the Holy Spirit leading. A pastor may teach and inform us but we shouldn’t do it just because he says. We should study the issue for ourselves and allow the Holy Spirit to convict. Some of these things are just personal convictions, some are clear commands from scripture, we must study to find our selves approved and allow the Holy Spirit to guide. God bless the Pastors and teachers that are not afraid to proclaim the truth and the believers who like the bereans search the scriptures to see if what they are saying is true.

Is my faith not genuine because the one who led me to Jesus Christ was errant in his theology? Of course not. God worked through this man to bring me to Himself. He can even work through atheists for His purposes and for His glory.

I am far, far more fundamental and conservative in my beliefs than the one who led me to Christ. In fact, I know many here would even question his salvation because of his beliefs. But God used him nonetheless and was glorified.

My point in saying all this is to say that my faith and my beliefs are my own, even if God used others to bring me to that faith and those beliefs. And I believe my worship of God is my own, even if God uses others to provide the words and music.

Personally, I listen to music that is written and performed by atheists, agnostics, and even those evil cultural Christians. When I find a nugget of truth, I won’t reject it because the deliverer of that truth is deceived. I know that all truth comes from God, therefore I am not going to discount truth that does not come from someone who fits my image of what a Christian should be.

Thanks for engaging.

When (if) I sing this:

“My faithful Father, enduring Friend
Your tender mercy’s like a river with no end
It overwhelms me, covers my sin
Each time I come into Your presence
I stand in wonder once again

CHORUS:
Your grace still amazes me
Your love is still a mystery
Each day I fall on my knees
Your grace still amazes me
‘Cause Your grace still amazes me

Oh, patient Saviour, You make me whole
You are the Author and the Healer of my soul
What can I give You, Lord, what can I say
I know there’s no way to repay You
Only to offer You my praise

It’s deeper, it’s wider
It’s stronger, it’s higher
It’s deeper it’s wider
It’s stronger, it’s higher
than anything my eyes can see.”

I am singing to the Triune God of the Bible, the One who saves by faith alone through His grace. There simply is nothing in those verses that is heretical. I have no problem singing biblically-accurate words. I am not a heretic….my singing those words posted above would not be heretical.

Now, if there were a song that went something like “Ode to the Unitarian God who saves me through His grace…and baptism….and speaking in tongues” you can be certain I’d never sing the song.

As I said before, I don’t know the origin of most of the songs I sing (even most of the old hymns). I don’t think anyone could possibly know the beliefs and intent of every person who ever penned a hymn. But I CAN look through the lyrics and decide for myself if it is a hymn I am willing to lift up to the Lord. And when I make that decision, I am going to do it with my whole heart, because at that moment it is ME worshiping MY Lord through the song, not the person who wrote it.

A half truth is a WHOLE LIE!

Ask a Mormon if he can attest to the following: 1) I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 2) I am trusting in Jesus Christ for my salvation.

Or, ask a Roman Catholic to attest to the following: 1) I believe in justification by faith. 2) I am saved by grace.

Are those statements true? They are true; however, they are mixed with the lie of the evil one. A Roman Catholic could write a song about justification by faith or being saved by grace, but until you are able to nail down what exactly he or she means by his terminology, you are on shaky ground. Until that person were to clarify and state that justification is by grace through faith alone using biblical terminology, he or she is defining his doctrine according to the traditions of their church.

One of the oldest tricks in the book was invented by Lucifer (satan, the evil one), and he is still good at using it. Take a lot of truth and mix just a teensy-weensy tiny bit of error in it. Nobody will ever notice. Nobody will really care.

I ask again — If their theology is not so bad, and we are just talking about semantics, then why 1) not willing to admit where they stand to the evangelical church across America, and 2) why are evangelicals willing to use their music but not the ministry of the Word from these men?

They speak of God in their songs and they mean a unitarian type god. They speak of saving grace and they mean 1) acceptance of Christ, 2) baptism by immersion for salvation, and 3) baptism by the Holy Spirit as a second work of grace as can only be evidenced by the speaking in tongues.

So, my question again, which nobody has yet seemed willing to answer – What is the difference between the spoken word by one of these preachers in your pulpit or them singing the same thing by the use of their song when they mean the exact same thing?

Maybe I am missing something here. I am listening and considering all these things. Or maybe, I have just hit a sore spot with a lot of people which most have been unwilling to address.

The Desert Pastor

However, you seem to think that the truth is affected by who speaks it. All truth comes from God. It does not matter who speaks truth.

PJ

As a side note, the communion crackers we used to use when we observed the Lord’s Supper in church were manufactured by a company that matched its employees’ donations to falsely “charitable” organizations, such as Planned Parenthood.

If my comments are causing a problem, feel free to delete them. It would not hurt my feelings.

“The purpose of the blog and subsequent comments was NOT to determine whether those who chose to listen to these songs were heretics merely by the act of listening. You have gravely misunderstood me and taken the matter far beyond what I have written. Unfortunately, when things that are written against what we hold dear come before us, too many times it can aggravate us. It upsets our emotions.

“The entire purpose of this blog and all of my comments was to point out the heresy that is behind the words of PC&D (and St. Francis for that matter also). My intention is not to dot every I and cross every T for that would be impossible with the limited amount of time I have to contribute to this blog. Even if I did have more available time, my purpose would STILL be to point others to Jesus Christ. It would still be to defend AND contend for the faith for which millions have died.”

The article was written in apology to what he felt he had done wrong. Why someone would take offense over an apology, I don’t know but it does seem to me like you have. No one can keep you from listening to the songs you feel are uplifting to you and no one is trying to do so. The Desert Pastor merely apologized for what he felt was wrong before God and pointed out the problems of listening to men who don’t believe in the God of the Bible. The grace of God is sufficient to cover the areas where we are wrong (whether it’s you or the Desert Pastor or anyone else) if we are truly striving to be obedient to what He has revealed to us through His Word! This is exactly what the Desert Pastor is trying to accomplish and to get angry or argue the matter is not only senseless but it doesn’t show forth a gentle and quiet spirit within our lives.

Just dismissing something out of hand simply because you don’t like what you heard without seeking to study it out is not being a Berean Christian. Whatever the case is, we are keeping you in prayer that the Lord will help you during this time. We don’t want you to simply see things the way the Desert Pastor would want or that you would want, but to see things as THE LORD wants you to see them. May God’s grace help you during this time.

In Christian Love,
Desert Pastor’s wife

Trust me, I am not about to throw doctrine and theology to the wind. But I also am not going to set aside my feelings and emotions. I don’t for a second think God wants us to be theologically perfect and emotionally empty regarding Him.

I am not going to sing a song to the Lord that is heretical. We could argue the few words in “All Creatures of Our God and King” that you took issue with, but it would be pointless. And there is nothing I read in the other song that remotely comes close to being heretical.

I don’t know the origin of most of the songs I sing to the Lord. I don’t know who wrote them, under what circumstances, nor do I know if every person who wrote them aligns perfectly with my own theological beliefs. And to be quite honest, I am not about to set out on a crusade to find out. I have a short time on this earth to live for the Lord, and I am not going to let fear rob me of enjoying Him and all that He is.

Anyway, we could argue this all day, but that too would steal my time away that I could be spending with the Lord. I appreciate this site and your desire to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ. That has always been my desire as well.

One last thought…

I can’t imagine making a show of sitting down in church while they sang about God’s grace. I would stand, as usual, with my hands in the air and tears streaming down my face, thanking God for His precious gift and for His precious Son.

On another thought, why not just ditch all extra-biblical songs and sing only from the Psalms? That is one way we wouldn’t have to contend with man’s frail fallible humanity.

The purpose of the blog and subsequent comments was NOT to determine whether those who chose to listen to these songs were heretics merely by the act of listening. You have gravely misunderstood me and taken the matter far beyond what I have written. Unfortunately, when things that are written against what we hold dear come before us, too many times it can aggravate us. It upsets our emotions.

The entire purpose of this blog and all of my comments was to point out the heresy that is behind the words of PC&D (and St. Francis for that matter also). My intention is not to dot every I and cross every T for that would be impossible with the limited amount of time I have to contribute to this blog. Even if I did have more available time, my purpose would STILL be to point others to Jesus Christ. It would still be to defend AND contend for the faith for which millions have died.

Knowing where I have come from and how I am where I now am because of the grace of God, I am amazed that He would have even chosen me. Yet He did from before the foundations of the world and set His eternal love upon me.

Amy, there are many songs which can move us to tears, but emotions and feelings and experiences do not make the theology in those songs correct. Many secular songs can accomplish the same thing. I can and have listened to some very stirring classical pieces of music that can be overwhelming and in the right place and format it allows me to dwell on the glories of God. However, because I can think about God when listening to that classical music does NOT make that music any more theologically accurate than listening (in this case) to PC&D or St. Francis.

I would like to express sincere caution. You said, “I don’t want to get so caught up in the fear of not being doctrinally and theologically perfect….” Having been in many churches and seen much in my years of ministry AND yes even having been caught up with my own emotions or feelings or experiences, this statement can be very dangerous. It is more dangerous than maybe you or others realize.

You are correct in that we are not perfect and will not be until we reach glory. However, if we are commanded to be like Jesus Christ and to heed the instruction and teaching and doctrine being taught, then there are times when we must be willing to put aside those feelings and emotions when truth is brought to our attention.

The bottom line is this. The only true joy we will ever truly know is when we are worshipping the Lord we adore in the manner which He alone prescribes. If we think we can bring our own designed sacrifices of praise, we would be well warned to consider whether it is acceptable to God. Do we think it is acceptable God based on how we feel? Or, should our worship be acceptable to God based on His recipe for that worship?

For those reading, it is not my intention to argue needlessly on any of these points. I am willing to consider all that is shared. However, as I progress in my Christian walk, I realize more and more how far I am from God expects from me. In order for me to change, it cannot be in my heart which the Bible declares is deceitfully wicked. It must be based on setting my affections on things above and learning to see my life and the holiness of God the way His Word commands me to do so.

One final thought – I am not declaring to anybody on here what you can or cannot listen to. That is between you and God. I can only share the principles of God’s Word that I am learning as a minister of the gospel. What you do with the truth of God’s Word must be left to the reader or listener.

Sharing this in Christian love,
The Desert Pastor

I know who wrote it. That’s why I posted it. It’s a beautiful hymn that I love to sing to the Lord. Does that make me a heretic?

And as for the song you just posted, I would have no problem singing that to the Lord either. I see nothing heretical in the words. Actually, truth be told, tears of thanksgiving welled up in my eyes as I read it. I could have written those very words.

Most of the time I agree wholeheartedly with posts on this site (and others like it). But sometimes I fear we get so caught up trying to dot every I and cross every T, we miss the mark and lose sight of Jesus Christ and His precious grace.

When I sing “All Creatures of Our God and King” my heart burns within me with love and passion for the Lord. And I will never, ever believe that is displeasing to God. I am a redeemed child of God, not a heretic. There are many wonderful songs I sing to the Lord. And I don’t want to get so caught up in the fear of not being doctrinally and theologically perfect (there isn’t a one of us who is) that I miss out on the joy of worshiping the Lord I love so much.

You said, “Another thought to ponder, should we ever listen to music that isn’t suitable for Sunday morning (jazz, instrumental, classical, Christian songs that are more of a testimony than a worship song like some of Mark Schultz’s music) ? Thanks for continuing to teach and edify the body!”

First, let me say that I appreciate the encouragement. All of us at DefCon are grateful to the Lord that He chooses to use us in this manner to help others. May more continue to be encouraged in the Word as we all rightly seek to divide the Word of God.

Second, you have brought up a very good question. This is part of what I will be addressing in my next series on Worship. I ask that you bear with me until I am ready to publish it.

The Desert Pastor

I assume you are speaking about the lyrics to the PC&D song, “Your Grace Still Amazes Me.” I was not certain what you are referring to when you said the lyrics to the “OP.”

“My faithful Father, enduring Friend
Your tender mercy’s like a river with no end
It overwhelms me, covers my sin
Each time I come into Your presence
I stand in wonder once again

CHORUS:
Your grace still amazes me
Your love is still a mystery
Each day I fall on my knees
Your grace still amazes me
‘Cause Your grace still amazes me

Oh, patient Saviour, You make me whole
You are the Author and the Healer of my soul
What can I give You, Lord, what can I say
I know there’s no way to repay You
Only to offer You my praise

It’s deeper, it’s wider
It’s stronger, it’s higher
It’s deeper it’s wider
It’s stronger, it’s higher
than anything my eyes can see.”

Again, I am not going to rehash all that I have already stated as I will be formulating a few more posts on “Music in Worship” very shortly to be published here. Please refer to my comments posted directly after you posted the words to the song, “All Creatures of our God and King.”

Suffice it to add one more point though – the issue is not whether the words themselves are heretical for that CANNOT necessary be determined from this particular song unless you know the definitions the performers are using. Once you know their terminology, it is easy to discern the heresy and its insidious tenons trying to ensnare us.

Thanks for all the comments so far. I pray this is helpful to many.

The Desert Pastor

I don’t listen to the radio “waiting” for a good song to come on so maybe I worded my comment wrong. If my local Christian station is playing rubbage I’ll turn it off. But if I turn it on and its a good song I’ll listen. (for ex. certain nights are “rock” nights so I won’t even turn it on then) I actually don’t listen to the radio much anymore because I’m sick of having to turn it off every other song. I set up pandora radio (pandora.com) to play the music that I think is good. If they play something you don’t like you can reject it and they won’t play it again. Right now I’m listening to an Avalon station that I set up and they are playing “Great is thy faithfulness”

I can understand what you are saying and I appreciate the thoughts and I will consider them. I probably agree with you more than you think. I’m always telling my husband that he shouldn’t listen to so called Christian rock because of what they stand for and how they project themselves. I think music is more than the lyrics, its the whole package. I just have a hard time with where you draw the line. It’s obviously an individual conviction because its not as black and white as some would think. I have friends that won’t listen to anything other than hymns and really soft music, they focus on sound rather than content. Others swing the opposite way and think that content alone is everything. I think it falls somewhere in the middle.

Most of the time I don’t even know who’s singing the songs so to take every individual artist and hold their beliefs up to scrutiny would be nearly impossible. Like someone else said many of the artists don’t even advertise their individual beliefs. I never would have known about P,C,and D without reading this post. I do agree that most of the music that passes as Christian nowadays is man centered just like most of the stuff coming from the pulpits.

Another thought to ponder, should we ever listen to music that isn’t suitable for Sunday morning (jazz, instrumental, classical, Christian songs that are more of a testimony than a worship song like some of Mark Schultz’s music) ?

Thanks for continuing to teach and edify the body!

Blessings,

Tanya

Amy, our church does not sing that. And if they did, I would.

You said, “Most of the CCM is garbage nowadays and more often than not I do turn it off but when I hear a pearl amongst the rubbage I take a minute to enjoy it without care of who is singing it.”

Let me share another analogy – If I had a barrel full of apples and injected just one with poison and informed you of such action, would you be willing to take a chance with ANY of the apples in the barrel? Or, if I told you that the barrel was full of poisoned apples with the exception of a three or four good “pearls” – would you be willing to take the chance of biting into each poisoned apple until you found the good ones?

I believe the answer to both questions (from any sane person) would be – NO CHANCE! Why would we take as little care in what we put into our minds as what we put into our bodies? Why would we be willing to listen to poison (bad doctrine, heresy, and that which brings honour only to man and not to Christ, etc.) only with the hopes of finding the handful of “pearls” which are mostly written by the same individuals who sing AND write the poison?

Just a few thoughts to prayerfully consider!
The Desert Pastor

*****************

Amy, I do not believe the question is whether or not the grace of God is enough for us. In fact, His grace is ALL sufficient for those who come to Him by faith through Jesus Christ alone for their salvation. Yes, his grace DOES amaze me, but again that is also NOT the question at hand.

The questions I raised based on another bringing it to my attention was the fact of what they believe. Let us use two other examples which might help those who are reading this post.

1. The song written by a Roman Catholic takes on significantly different meaning when you begin to understand what a RC person believes in the matter of receiving grace. To receive grace has nothing to do with the matter of justification by faith alone to a Roman Catholic – for this is a doctrine they would deny and have killed millions for holding to in the past.

A RC person can receive grace by partaking of the mass, which is a crucifying again the Person of Jesus Christ. When the priest mumbles the magic words, Hoc est corpus (like hocus pocus) and states that he now literally holds the body and blood of Jesus Christ in his (the priests) depraved hands, a RC person swallows the wafer and wine believing he or she has received grace! — THIS IS HERESY!

Therefore, for a true believer to sing this particular song mentioned by Berry, he is singing in ignorance with an individual who thinks he is going to heaven because of his works, his self-righteousness, and his partaking of the sacraments.

2. The Mormon Tabernacle Choir sings a song like “Amazing Grace” or “How Great Thou Art”. Wonderful, we all say. Soul-stirring, etc. Yet, the Mormons do not believe in justification by faith alone either. In fact, they deny the majority of the fundamentals of the faith. There is no evangelical fundamental church and leadership in their right mind who would invite the Mormon Tabernacle Choir to sing in their churches or to preach from their pulpits. But, they can take our songs, inject THEIR hidden meanings into the song, and the vast majority accept in music form what they would not do so otherwise.

The Bible states that the prayer of the unbeliever God DOES NOT hear and I believe the principle must also hold true with their singing. It is not biblically possible to worship God in spirit and in truth when you believe, practice, and teach a gospel which is accursed by the Word of God.

The heresy lies in the doctrine which is behind the songs and those who are writing them. There are many people who think as you do that it does not matter who wrote them or what the music is like provided the lyrics give some kind of credibility to God. Therefore, we can get somebody like Rick Pino (playing at Lakeland) a song (You Swing Me Round) written by a cross-dressing homosexual, throw in the name of Jesus, and all of a sudden it becomes acceptable.

My friend, it may be acceptable to so-called CHristianity, but God tells us in His word that He will NOT accept sacrifices from a wicked heart. He will NOT accept worship which is not in the prescribed manner which He alone has ordained and chooses the standard for.

Pray this is helpful to all,
The Desert Pastor

*************************************************

Amy,

I do not know about Berry, but personally if I were to attend another church that was willing to sing “All Creatures of our God and King”, I would be appalled! I would not only be appalled, but I would get up and exit any church which would be willing to sing such heresy!

The song was written by a Roman Catholic monk, St. Francis of Assisi, who believed and taught rank heresy!

It may sound like a beautiful hymn, but the theology is totally unbiblical! Examples, why would we sing to “mother earth” (a pagan belief) or sing to “death” (another pagan belief)? To a Roman Catholic the term “child of God” refers to all who come by way of the Roman church, which the Bible describes as the harlot of Babylon.

The Desert Pastor

I am not going to hastily sit down and research every song to see who wrote them and sings them. I wouldn’t fall in love with a song in the first place that had heretical lyrics or didn’t glorifiy the Lord. I can use my discernment to filter out songs which are antithetical to my beliefs.

I would love it if the OP would post the lyrics to “Your Grace Still Amazes Me” so we can see what is so heretical about it. Because you know, His grace still DOES amaze me!

****************************************************************

My church has a thing for the song YOUR GRACE IS ENOUGH (written by a Roman Catholic). I get funny looks when I sit down and read a Psalm as they play that song. No one has YET asked why. But I can’t wait to be called “judgemental” or “intollerant.”–Berry

Is His grace NOT enough for you?

***************************************************************

Berry, do you also sit when they sing this hymn in your church?

All creatures of our God and King
Lift up your voice and with us sing,
Alleluia! Alleluia!
Thou burning sun with golden beam,
Thou silver moon with softer gleam!

Refrain

O praise Him! O praise Him!
Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia!

Thou rushing wind that art so strong
Ye clouds that sail in Heaven along,
O praise Him! Alleluia!
Thou rising moon, in praise rejoice,
Ye lights of evening, find a voice!

Refrain

Thou flowing water, pure and clear,
Make music for thy Lord to hear,
O praise Him! Alleluia!
Thou fire so masterful and bright,
That givest man both warmth and light.

Refrain

Dear mother earth, who day by day
Unfoldest blessings on our way,
O praise Him! Alleluia!
The flowers and fruits that in thee grow,
Let them His glory also show.

Refrain

And all ye men of tender heart,
Forgiving others, take your part,
O sing ye! Alleluia!
Ye who long pain and sorrow bear,
Praise God and on Him cast your care!

Refrain

And thou most kind and gentle Death,
Waiting to hush our latest breath,
O praise Him! Alleluia!
Thou leadest home the child of God,
And Christ our Lord the way hath trod.

Refrain

Let all things their Creator bless,
And worship Him in humbleness,
O praise Him! Alleluia!
Praise, praise the Father, praise the Son,
And praise the Spirit, Three in One!

Refrain

Phillips, Craig and Dean on God’s Nature

I couldn’t find it on his site, but I thought Dr. White had a post which went through their lyrics, and demonstrated how their Oneness theology comes through. An example from memory was them referring to the Father as the “bread of life”.

Maybe it wasn’t Dr. White’s site, so do some Google searches. Hope the above link helps anyway.

And then, this one other time, I had a friend who drank Starbucks coffee until he realized they used to put a Rick Warren quote on some of their coffee cups.

Then, he REALLY liked Starbucks, so he said he was gonna drink it anyway, since they never held themselves out to be a Christian coffee company.