50 Answers to 50 Mormon Answers to 50 Anti-Mormon Questions (answer 13)

Tower To Truth Question:

13. If God is an exalted man with a body of flesh and bones, why does Alma 18:26-28 and John 4:24 say that God is a spirit?

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FAIR Answer:

In Alma, the reference is to Jesus Christ, who before His birth did not have a physical body.

John 4:24 does not say God is “a” spirit, but says “God is spirit.” There is no “a” in the Greek. The Bible also says “God is truth” or “God is light.” Those things are true, but we don’t presume God is JUST truth, or JUST light—or JUST spirit.

As one non-LDS commentary puts it:

That God is spirit is not meant as a definition of God’s being—though this is how the Stoics [a branch of Greek philosophy] would have understood it. It is a metaphor of his mode of operation, as life-giving power, and it is no more to be taken literally than 1John 1:5, “God is light,” or Deut. 4:24, “Your God is a devouring fire.” It is only those who have received this power through Christ who can offer God a real worship.

- J. N. Sanders, A Commentary on the Gospel According to St. John, edited and completed by B. A. Mastin, (New York, Harper & Row, 1968), 147–148.

To learn more: God is a Spirit

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My Response:

FAIR needs to do some better work on their biblical scholarship. They have shown, in this response, that they have not studied the Greek of John 4:24. Let us look at the Greek of this verse:

πνευμα ό θεος

pneuma ho Theos

This sentence, πνευμα ό θεος (pneuma ho Theos), “God is spirit,” is constructed in a way similar to the last part of John 1:1, when John writes θεος ην ό λογος (Theos hn ho logos), “the Word was God.”

πνευμα ό θεος–“God is spirit”
θεος ην ό λογος–“the Word was God”

The word πνευμα (pneuma) is in the nominative case. However, this is actually the predicate of the sentence. And since there is no definite article it should be read “spirit.” Now, let’s look at ό θεος (ho Theos). The definite article ό is attached to θεος. This literally means “the God.” So what we get is “The God is spirit.” Or, in English, “God is spirit.”

So what is Jesus trying to tell us in this statement? Is He simply declaring the form and essence of the Father? Basically what He was saying was that all those who worshipped some kind of visible idol, or looked to some thing or some place or some person as their object of worship had missed it by an eternity. God (the Father) is everywhere. As the Psalmist said, Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, Even there Your hand shall lead me, and Your right hand shall hold me (Psalm 139:7-10). If God is not a spirit, why does the Psalmist say, “Where can I go from Your Spirit…If I ascend into heaven, You are there? Now, before anyone says, “Well, what about ‘Your hand shall lead me?‘” Many times the Hebrew of the Old Testament used different parts of the body to symbolize different things. The arm symbolized power, the head symbolized rule, the feet symbolized actions. Here, “Your hand” symbolizes power. And as far as “Your right hand“–if God had a body, could His “right hand” (if we think of “right hand” in strictly human terms) hold all those who call for Him at the same time? Are we to believe that at any given time only one person is ever needing God to uphold and strengthen them? Absolutely not! God is everywhere, at all times, since He is not limited by a body of flesh and bone.

Now, what about FAIR’s assertion that “The Bible also says “God is truth” or “God is light.” Those things are true, but we don’t presume God is JUST truth, or JUST light—or JUST spirit“? Frankly, I really don’t see what they’re getting at. God is all those things. He is also a strong tower, a refuge, a shield, a buckler, a rock, a defender…

Well, we can see in other places that God the Father does not have a physical body. Colossians 1:15And He [Christ] is the image of the invisible God. If God has a tangible, touchable body of flesh and bone, how can Paul declare Him to be “invisible?” We also must consider Hebrews 1:3–[Jesus] being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power… The word “person” is not the best way to render ύποστάσεως (hupostaseos). “Essence” is closer to the actual meaning, a fact which dampens the LDS argument that Jesus being the “image of His person” refers to the Father having a corporeal body.

Of course, saying that God has a body presents other problems as well. In the Old Testament, it is written many times that God “dwells between the cherubim” (1st Samuel 4:4; 2nd Samuel 6:2; 2nd Kings 19:15; 1st Chronicles 13:6; Psalm 80:1; Isaiah 37:16). So, if the Father has a body, and dwells on his home planet near Kolob (No, He does not live ON Kolob. Kolob is the nearest start to where God the Father dwells. Or so they say), and He is confined to a body, how can He “dwell between the cherubim”–a reference to His dwelling between the angels atop the Ark of the Covenant?

If you click on FAIR’s link that says, “God is spirit,” you will find this gem:

Deut. 4:28 says that our God can see, eat and smell.

WRONG!! Deuteronomy 4:28 says And there you will serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see nor hear nor eat nor smell. [Emphasis mine] All this says is that the “gods” which men make cannot hear or eat or smell. And a link at that link tries to use the fact that God told Moses He would hide him in the rock and cover it with His hand. So, did He have to leave wherever He was to do it? And if God’s body is like our body, it must be pretty big for Him to cover a cleft with His hand.

There is much overwhelming evidence that God the Father does NOT have a body, that He is spirit, and that Christ is the only member of the Trinity to have ever taken on human flesh.

91 thoughts on “50 Answers to 50 Mormon Answers to 50 Anti-Mormon Questions (answer 13)

  1. Very good teaching here! I think this is the best way to reach these lost people. Let them see what the actual greek meanings are. I pray that as you continue to show their responses against what Scripture says, that the Truth will come to light for them!

  2. Hi,

    Before posting my response to your inquiry about the divinity of God, I would like to say that I am grateful for people that try to bring people to know Jesus Christ; but, I never am quite sure why people feel the responsibilty to denounce the faith of others. I believe that truth can be taught through testimony; therefore, I testify that Jesus Christ lives. He does have a body of flesh and bone, as does His Father, Our God. I can read all the books I want and study the most profound doctrine; however, much like those who have yet to be born of Christ, one can never know the truth of all things until they ask. My invitation to you is to read the Book of Mormon and then ask God the Father inthe name of His Son Jesus Christ if it is not true. I know He answers all prayers.

    Now, I will answer your question through the words that have been delivered to the world by the mouth of an Apostle of Jesus Christ…

    http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=00d51b3e50cf5110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1

    We declare it is self-evident from the scriptures that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate persons, three divine beings.

    As Elder Ballard noted earlier in this session, various cross-currents of our times have brought increasing public attention to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Lord told the ancients this latter-day work would be “a marvellous work and a wonder,”1 and it is. But even as we invite one and all to examine closely the marvel of it, there is one thing we would not like anyone to wonder about—that is whether or not we are “Christians.”

    By and large any controversy in this matter has swirled around two doctrinal issues—our view of the Godhead and our belief in the principle of continuing revelation leading to an open scriptural canon. In addressing this we do not need to be apologists for our faith, but we would like not to be misunderstood. So with a desire to increase understanding and unequivocally declare our Christianity, I speak today on the first of those two doctrinal issues just mentioned.

    Our first and foremost article of faith in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”2 We believe these three divine persons constituting a single Godhead are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission. We believe Them to be filled with the same godly sense of mercy and love, justice and grace, patience, forgiveness, and redemption. I think it is accurate to say we believe They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable except believing Them to be three persons combined in one substance, a Trinitarian notion never set forth in the scriptures because it is not true.

    Indeed no less a source than the stalwart Harper’s Bible Dictionary records that “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament].”3

    So any criticism that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not hold the contemporary Christian view of God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost is not a comment about our commitment to Christ but rather a recognition (accurate, I might add) that our view of the Godhead breaks with post–New Testament Christian history and returns to the doctrine taught by Jesus Himself. Now, a word about that post–New Testament history might be helpful.

    In the year a.d. 325 the Roman emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea to address—among other things—the growing issue of God’s alleged “trinity in unity.” What emerged from the heated contentions of churchmen, philosophers, and ecclesiastical dignitaries came to be known (after another 125 years and three more major councils)4 as the Nicene Creed, with later reformulations such as the Athanasian Creed. These various evolutions and iterations of creeds—and others to come over the centuries—declared the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost to be abstract, absolute, transcendent, immanent, consubstantial, coeternal, and unknowable, without body, parts, or passions and dwelling outside space and time. In such creeds all three members are separate persons, but they are a single being, the oft-noted “mystery of the trinity.” They are three distinct persons, yet not three Gods but one. All three persons are incomprehensible, yet it is one God who is incomprehensible.

    We agree with our critics on at least that point—that such a formulation for divinity is truly incomprehensible. With such a confusing definition of God being imposed upon the church, little wonder that a fourth-century monk cried out, “Woe is me! They have taken my God away from me, … and I know not whom to adore or to address.”5 How are we to trust, love, worship, to say nothing of strive to be like, One who is incomprehensible and unknowable? What of Jesus’s prayer to His Father in Heaven that “this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent”?6

    It is not our purpose to demean any person’s belief nor the doctrine of any religion. We extend to all the same respect for their doctrine that we are asking for ours. (That, too, is an article of our faith.) But if one says we are not Christians because we do not hold a fourth- or fifth-century view of the Godhead, then what of those first Christian Saints, many of whom were eyewitnesses of the living Christ, who did not hold such a view either?7

    We declare it is self-evident from the scriptures that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate persons, three divine beings, noting such unequivocal illustrations as the Savior’s great Intercessory Prayer just mentioned, His baptism at the hands of John, the experience on the Mount of Transfiguration, and the martyrdom of Stephen—to name just four.

    With these New Testament sources and more8 ringing in our ears, it may be redundant to ask what Jesus meant when He said, “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do.”9 On another occasion He said, “I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”10 Of His antagonists He said, “[They have] … seen and hated both me and my Father.”11 And there is, of course, that always deferential subordination to His Father that had Jesus say, “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.”12 “My father is greater than I.”13

    To whom was Jesus pleading so fervently all those years, including in such anguished cries as “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me”14 and “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me”?15 To acknowledge the scriptural evidence that otherwise perfectly united members of the Godhead are nevertheless separate and distinct beings is not to be guilty of polytheism; it is, rather, part of the great revelation Jesus came to deliver concerning the nature of divine beings. Perhaps the Apostle Paul said it best: “Christ Jesus … being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.”16

    A related reason The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is excluded from the Christian category by some is because we believe, as did the ancient prophets and apostles, in an embodied—but certainly glorified—God.17 To those who criticize this scripturally based belief, I ask at least rhetorically: If the idea of an embodied God is repugnant, why are the central doctrines and singularly most distinguishing characteristics of all Christianity the Incarnation, the Atonement, and the physical Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ? If having a body is not only not needed but not desirable by Deity, why did the Redeemer of mankind redeem His body, redeeming it from the grasp of death and the grave, guaranteeing it would never again be separated from His spirit in time or eternity?18Any who dismiss the concept of an embodied God dismiss both the mortal and the resurrected Christ. No one claiming to be a true Christian will want to do that.

    Now, to anyone within the sound of my voice who has wondered regarding our Christianity, I bear this witness. I testify that Jesus Christ is the literal, living Son of our literal, living God. This Jesus is our Savior and Redeemer who, under the guidance of the Father, was the Creator of heaven and earth and all things that in them are. I bear witness that He was born of a virgin mother, that in His lifetime He performed mighty miracles observed by legions of His disciples and by His enemies as well. I testify that He had power over death because He was divine but that He willingly subjected Himself to death for our sake because for a period of time He was also mortal. I declare that in His willing submission to death He took upon Himself the sins of the world, paying an infinite price for every sorrow and sickness, every heartache and unhappiness from Adam to the end of the world. In doing so He conquered both the grave physically and hell spiritually and set the human family free. I bear witness that He was literally resurrected from the tomb and, after ascending to His Father to complete the process of that Resurrection, He appeared, repeatedly, to hundreds of disciples in the Old World and in the New. I know He is the Holy One of Israel, the Messiah who will one day come again in final glory, to reign on earth as Lord of lords and King of kings. I know that there is no other name given under heaven whereby a man can be saved and that only by relying wholly upon His merits, mercy, and everlasting grace19 can we gain eternal life.

    My additional testimony regarding this resplendent doctrine is that in preparation for His millennial latter-day reign, Jesus has already come, more than once, in embodied majestic glory. In the spring of 1820, a 14-year-old boy, confused by many of these very doctrines that still confuse much of Christendom, went into a grove of trees to pray. In answer to that earnest prayer offered at such a tender age, the Father and the Son appeared as embodied, glorified beings to the boy prophet Joseph Smith. That day marked the beginning of the return of the true, New Testament gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and the restoration of other prophetic truths offered from Adam down to the present day.

    I testify that my witness of these things is true and that the heavens are open to all who seek the same confirmation. Through the Holy Spirit of Truth, may we all know “the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom [He has] sent.”20 Then may we live Their teachings and be true Christians in deed, as well as in word, I pray in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

    Notes
    1. Isaiah 29:14.

    2. Articles of Faith 1:1.

    3. Paul F. Achtemeier, ed. (1985), 1099; emphasis added.

    4. Constantinople, a.d. 381; Ephesus, a.d. 431; Chalcedon, a.d. 451.

    5. Quoted in Owen Chadwick, Western Asceticism (1958), 235.

    6. John 17:3; emphasis added.

    7. For a thorough discussion of this issue, see Stephen E. Robinson, Are Mormons Christian? 71–89; see also Robert Millet, Getting at the Truth (2004), 106–22.

    8. See, for example, John 12:27–30; John 14:26; Romans 8:34; Hebrews 1:1–3.

    9. John 5:19; see also John 14:10.

    10. John 6:38.

    11. John 15:24.

    12. Matthew 19:17.

    13. John 14:28.

    14. Matthew 26:39.

    15. Matthew 27:46.

    16. Philippians 2:5–6.

    17. See David L. Paulsen, “Early Christian Belief in a Corporeal Deity: Origen and Augustine as Reluctant Witnesses,” Harvard Theological Review, vol. 83, no. 2 (1990): 105–16; David L. Paulsen, “The Doctrine of Divine Embodiment: Restoration, Judeo-Christian, and Philosophical Perspectives,” BYU Studies, vol. 35, no. 4 (1996): 7–94; James L. Kugel, The God of Old: Inside the Lost World of the Bible (2003), xi–xii, 5–6, 104–6, 134–35; Clark Pinnock, Most Moved Mover: A Theology of God’s Openness (2001), 33–34.

    18. See Romans 6:9; Alma 11:45.

    19. See 1 Nephi 10:6; 2 Nephi 2:8; 31:19; Moroni 6:4; Joseph Smith Translation, Romans 3:24.

    20. John 17:3.

  3. Jason,

    While you seem to be a very likeable guy, I’m not sure why you think anyone would care about your testimony. It may be an interesting testimony, but it’s not something anyone should base a decision that has eternal consequences on.

    Do you know why Mormonism teaches that the Bible is true only as it is properly translated? If they admitted that it was completely true, Mormonism would collapse.

    Joseph Smith is disqualified as a prophet, because he couldn’t have seen the Father (Exodus 33:20, John 1:18, 6:46, 1 Timothy 6:16).

    Furthermore, the polytheism of Mormonism is false, because the Bible so clearly describes a monotheistic God.

    Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD”

    Deuteronomy 32:39 “See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand.”

    1 Samuel 2:2 “There is no one holy like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.”

    2 Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign LORD! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

    1 Kings 8:23 “O LORD, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven above or on earth below—you who keep your covenant of love with your servants who continue wholeheartedly in your way.”

    2 Kings 5:15 “Then Naaman and all his attendants went back to the man of God. He stood before him and said, “Now I know that there is no God in all the world except in Israel. Please accept now a gift from your servant.”

    1 Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O LORD, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

    2 Chronicles 6:14 “He said: “O LORD, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth—you who keep your covenant of love with your servants who continue wholeheartedly in your way.”

    Psalm 86:10 “For you are great and do marvelous deeds; you alone are God.”

    Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.”

    Isaiah 44:6 “This is what the LORD says—Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

    Isaiah 44:8 “Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”

    Isaiah 45:5 “I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me”

    Isaiah 45:14 “…’Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other god.”

    Isaiah 45:18 “…I am the LORD, and there is no other.”

    Isaiah 45:21 “…And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me.”

    Isaiah 45:22 “Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

    Isaiah 46:8-9 “Remember this, fix it in mind, take it to heart, you rebels. Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is
    none like me.”

    Malachi 2:10 “Have we not all one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our fathers by breaking faith with one another?”

    Mark 12:29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.”

    Mark 12:32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.”

    John 1:14 “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

    John 5:44 “How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God?”

    John 17:3 “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

    Romans 3:30 “since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.”

    1 Corinthians 8:4 “We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one.”

    Galatians 3:20 “A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.”

    Ephesians 4:4-6 “There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.”

    1 Timothy 1:17 “Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.”

    1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”

    James 2:19 “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.”

    I John 5:20 “We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

    Jude 1:25 “to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.”

    Thanks,
    Bill

  4. Jason Harlin:

    OK. So where does Elder Ballard give any indication that the Bible says God the Father has a body of flesh and bones? Oh, wait, never mind. I see it at the end. He “has a testimony that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.” In all that big, long paragraph, never once does he attempt to show from Scripture where God has a physical body.

    And as far as the oft-quoted text from Harper’s (which is also one of the favorites of Jehovah’s Witnesses), let us look at the whole entry:

    The formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the NT. Nevertheless, the discussion above and especially the presence of Trinitarian formulas in 2 Cor. 13:14 (which is strikingly early) and Matt. 28:19 indicate that the origin of this mode of thought may be found very early in Christian history.

    “Very early in Christian history.” Long before the 4th or 5th century.

  5. A J HILL says:

    Just a few question. Is Jesus the Son of the Living God resurrected. Is He not God in the Flesh referring to His name Emanuel. Is He and the Apostles going to judge us. Seems to me that if Jesus is God with us and is resurrected being then God has a body of flesh and bone.

  6. AJ,

    Yes, Jesus is God in the flesh. Jesus has a body of flesh and bone. The Bible makes it clear that the Father is spirit (John 4:24), and doesn’t have a body. Trinitarians believe in one God in three persons. The Father is not the Son is not the Holy Spirit, but there is only one God.

    If the Bible says God the Father cannot be seen over and over (1 Tim. 6:16, Exodus 33:20, John 6:46 etc.), how did Joseph Smith see Him?

    Thanks,
    Bill

  7. AJ,

    Jesus physically rose from the dead, and ascended into heaven in his physical body. He is still God in the flesh.

    What are your beliefs about who Jesus is?

    Bill

  8. A J HILL says:

    I am pleased with your response the fact is when I use this line of questions to most they deny that Jesus still is in the flesh that he is only in the flesh when heis here on the earth. To answer your question He is the Son of the living God. I emphasize the word living because death is associated with the body and life is thought of as the body wheather mortal or immortal. Jesus was healing a person of=n the sabath and he then was told he was blasphemous and then they were about to stone Him and He reminded them that is it not written that ye are gods. If you are a creator you are a god if you are given athourity over someone to judge them you are god if you are or something is worshiped then it is a god. I understand this that most people did not see Jesus as the messiah and even after the resurrection there was the multitude who only joined because of the miracles on the day of pentecost.

  9. Dear AJ,

    Due to the behemoth size of your latest response to Bill (word count: 3,524) it was automatically captured in our spam catcher to await approval.

    Based on the fact that this mammoth response of yours was copied and pasted from another source (without properly attributing credit to that source) and because we want to read your comments not someone else’s work copied and pasted as your comment, I am requesting that you resubmit your response to Bill in your own words.

    And also, when you post a comment of that magnitude, please be aware that the average person will not have the time to read through a comment of that size.

    Thank you for your understanding.

    Respectfully,
    – The Pilgrim

  10. A J HILL says:

    He is the son of the Living God

    He is God because He created and is judge over what He has created. He is our savior because He has taken on the sins of those he has created and his sacrifice is to His Father who has given Him this work and responsibility to.

    That is a part of my book that I am Writing

    My apologies for sending it you have been most gracious in your efforts to respond

  11. AJ,

    If I carved a little wooden idol, it would be a god. However, it wouldn’t actually possess any deity. The judges from Psalm 82, which Jesus was speaking of in John 10:30-36, are mere humans. They were God’s representatives, and were referred to as gods, but they didn’t actually possess any type of deity. They died just like all other ment (Psalm 82:7).

    Galatians 4:8 talks explains that all the gods in the world aren’t actually any type of god. They are simply objects, or objects representing evil (1 Corinthians 10:19-22).

    There is only one true God.

    How many gods do you think there are? Are you LDS? Joseph Smith taught that Jesus is Jehovah, and the Father is Elohim. Do you agree with his teaching?

    Thanks,
    Bill

  12. A J HILL says:

    Yes Iam L D S. remember in John when Jesus was told that Abraham is dead and so are the prophets and and then was told that you are not yet fifty and He told them before Abraham was I AM. I would say he used those specific words to remind them of who spoke to Moses in the bush. They were going to stone Him after He said this and he hid Himself.

  13. AJ,

    I agree that Jesus is Jehovah, and I believe the Father is Elohim (which is Hebrew for God. This means that the Father is God, not that the Father is actually named Elohim). However, Jesus is Elohim (God), and the Father is Jehovah. Deuteronomy 4:35 says, “Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.”

    When it says “the LORD he is God,” that means “Jehovah he is Elohim.” Most translations say “LORD” rather than Jehovah or Yahweh. Clearly, there is a problem with Joseph Smith’s thinking here.

    If I had a knife in my back, and came up to you and said that I’ve lived a wicked life, and I’m scared of what’s going to happen to me when I die. I have 3 minutes to live, what must I do to gain eternal life? Let’s assume there is no hope for the ambulance arriving in time. You have 3 minutes to tell me what I must do. What would you say?

    Thanks,
    Bill

  14. Those who lavish gold from the purse
    And weigh silver on the scale
    Hire a goldsmith, and he makes it into a god;
    They bow down, indeed they worship it.
    They lift it upon the shoulder and carry it;
    They set it in its place and it stands there
    It does not move from its place
    Though one may cry to it, it cannot answer;
    It cannot deliver him from his distress.
    Isaiah 46:6-7

  15. A J HILL says:

    So I take it that you believe there is only one God. Do not forget that when Jesus told the story of Lazarus and the rich king that it was father Abraham who was asked by the king to send someone to warn his people, or when Jesus was asked what is the greatest of all comandments after He answers it he is told that there is only one God. Jesus then chastises him and reminds him of the Psalms passage Lord of my Lord. As for your question of a mans salvation this is what I understand and I can only say that for each person who is to be judged mercy and justice must be at a balance. It is so critical that we are given every opportunity to succeed spiritually in life. We were given to this life to live according to dictates and the desires of our heart. If we use Jesus as a way out of hell then you will not succeed if you use Jesus as a way into heaven then you will succeed. Most people have the impression that just because we loose this mortal body that we have a change of attitude whether it be a positive or a negative. Who we are is from the spirit which is our life force. So if you were full of hate and while you were on this earth then you are going to be full of hate, and if you are full of love while in your mortal state then you will be full of love. To sum it up every must be judged according to there heart. and everyone will have to have the same opportunities to believe, and immortallity is our salvation, and anyone who has lived on this earth is awarded this because of what Jesus did and when we are judged it will be based upon the eternal existence not just the mere moment that we have lived on this earth. Again justice and mercy must be at a balance and there are probally a lot of head hunters if they grew in a similar as we live now me and you would they have chosen to believe we dont know and that is why the 12 apostles and Jesus the Christ is to judge us. Salvation and judgement is a very difficult subject to put into 10000000 words because it in so many variable. But the one is did you deny Jesus to be the savior in your heart and did you lead others astray. As I said this subject is very extensive and unless you have the mind of the ones who are to judge each one of us then it is impossible to answer in the simplest of terms.

    I have not recieved a response just wondering The last response on my behalf was salvation

  16. AJ,

    I wonder if you could clear something up for me. In the Book of Abraham, the fourth chapter begins with the narrative that says, “And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light. And they (the Gods) comprehended the light, for it was bright; and they divided the light, or caused it to be divided, from the darkness. And the Gods called the light Day…And the Gods ordered the expanse, so that it divided the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so, even as they ordered. And the Gods called the expanse, Heaven…” and so on. So we can see that the teaching of a multitude of “Gods” in the heavenlies is required if the LDS scriptures are to be believed.

    However, in Isaiah 44:6 (KJV), we find this–Thus saith the LORD [Hebrew: Jehovah] the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD [Hebrew: Jehovah] of hosts; “I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.” If the “Gods” in Abraham 4 assisted Christ in the creation, how is it that He tells Isaiah that there are no other Gods? Are there no other Gods? Or was Christ not being true or accurate in His statement?

  17. A J HILL says:

    It is late for me I will respond as soon as tomorrow. I go to work at 2 pm pacific time but I do have a answer.

  18. A J HILL says:

    Is there more than one God god. According to the book of Abraham there is. I understand the delima this puts me in if the writtings of Isaiah was the only book in the Bible, but it is not. What possibly could have been the reason of these passages that say there is only 1 God or only 1 Savior and no other that stands beside me. At the time this is spoken to Isaiah the people had become idol worshipers accepting other gods and replacing the one who granted to them their soverienty, and also made it possible for them to prosper in a chosen land that He Himself made sure of the outcome. So He was telling the people that the law is you will only worship me, and this me includes the Father the Son the Holy Ghost, and anyone else that God would put in charge such as Abraham. In Mark the Master explains it this way the law is you will worship the Lord Thy God. The emphasis is the law. The writtings in Isaiah serve a different purpose also, anytime that the Master would reference Himself as the Son of God or to forgive someone as to one having authority He was called blasphemous. He knew that this would be a way to get the authority so angry at Him that even being a charitable loving, and an inocent man they would want to crucify Him. And the plain and simple is we believe that we lived as spirits before we came to this earth and things in our prexistence were very much in order and those prophets and apostles and the savior. So if they were given the power to act in Gods name when they were probally given responsibilties in the prexistence. One more thing it is one thing to honor and worship the only living God and it is another to acknoleddge that the earth she is not a flat.

  19. AJ,

    The god of Mormonism (Heavenly Father) “became” a god through a progression towards godhood, isn’t this LDS teaching? If so, then he was even by LDS defintion at some point he was not a god and he then at some point he entered into godhood, correct?

    If these are consistent Mormon/LDS teachings then your god wasn’t god “from everlasting” since there was a point in time when he simply wasn’t a god. Correct me if I’m wrong here.

    Also AJ, do you personally render worship to “the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit” of Mormonism?

    In Christ,
    CD

  20. AJ,

    I thank you for your response, but there are still some loose ends to this dilemma. You said, “He was telling the people that the law is you will only worship me, and this me includes the Father the Son the Holy Ghost, and anyone else that God would put in charge such as Abraham.” I don’t understand how you come to this conclusion from the text. There is no possible way to draw this out of the passage, there is nothing in this passage–or any other passage in the Bible–that could lead one to this conclusion. The only way to do so is to accept the LDS teaching of a plurality of living, breathing Gods, something that is not found anywhere in the Bible. You have to jump through some pretty big hoops to believe that what you are saying about this passage is what it means.

    Another question is this–do you mean to say that God commanded the people to worship Abraham? (”…anyone else that God would put in charge such as Abraham.”) If so, this would go directly against the first of the Ten Commandments that says “You shall have no other gods besides Me.”

    If you look up the phrase “living God” in the Bible–you will never find it in the plural, it is always in the singular. Why? Because there is only one living God. And this is not a Godhead made up of three separate Gods who are only “One” because they are one in thought and purpose. The true God is ONE GOD, who exists as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, hence the Shema in Deut 6:4.

    Besides, the LDS idea of many “gods” helping in the creation (Abraham 4) also contradicts what is written in Isaiah 44:24Thus says YHVH (Jehovah), your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb: “I am Jehovah, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself…” Were there other “gods” helping Jehovah create the universe, or did Jesus do it by Himself, or was He simply wrong or untruthful in saying He did it by Himself?

  21. A J HILL says:

    I was half a sleep last nigth and I did not explain myself clear so I will try it again as soon as I get free in a couple of hours. about 1030 thankyou

    Quick ? do you think that the Jews were criticle of Jesus when He said that he was the son of God and sometimes saying to at least one that your sins have been forgiven.

  22. Yes they were critical of Him when He declared men’s sins forgiven, as we see in places like Matthew 9.

    He could forgive men’s sins because He was God. And the fact that He is God doe snot come from the fact that the Father gave Him the authority, or that Jesus was somehow God by proxy–it was because He was fully God–from eternity past, until eternity future. There has never been a time when Jesus has not been God Almighty. He did not have to go through any kind of progression–and that is one major difference between Christianity and Mormonism. We believe that Jesus has always existed WITH the Father–He was not the offspring of the Father in any pre-mortal world and had to progress to godhood.

    We also see they were angered by His claim to be God in Matthew chapter 10. In fact, a while back I had a conversation with another LDS on this blog about Jesus’ reference to Psalm 82 to make His claim to deity. You can read it here.

    Now, can you answer my preceding comment (10/30 6:34 am)?

  23. A J HILL says:

    I have this understanding that all the quotes of the nature of God are relevent and one cannot be used in such a way that would make the other quotes not relevent. From the beginning of what is written let us make man in our own image this statement in its self is plural then Jesus reverencing himself with respect to His father saying my father is perfect my father is over me I do not know when I will return only my father knows He prays to his father for the apostle and for strength His father speaks twice to his approval for his son the father sent the son the father will send the holy ghost this list is ongoing and the statements in Isaiah must not compete with these quotes they must be one as I and my father are one so is it my desire that ye are one.

  24. Here’s the problem AJ–the Bible does not contradict itself about who God is. He is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. These three are ONE GOD. In the LDS system, these three are THREE GODS. So we have a contradicition between the Bible and Mormonism (there are many, but we will focus on this one). And since the last books of the Bible were written some 1800 years before Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon, we must cast a more skeptical eye on the Book of Mormon, since it was written to compete with the Bible.

    Joseph Smith was a clever man, and he made many passages in the Book of Mormon sound like they were biblical. But then he got hungry for more power, and his ego led him to promote many doctrines that ran contrary to the BOM. So in 1837 he had to make almost 4000 changes to it so the BOM would match his new doctrines more closely (Of course, he didn’t catch all of them, so some read liek they did, and they disagree with much of actual LDS doctrine).

    Therefore, since the BOM contradicts the Bible, we must choose whether to believe the Bible or the Book of Mormon (and D&C, Pearl of Great Price, etc). Once we discount what the LDS system teaches about God, we then have a more accurate picture, unspoiled by years of tinkering by deceived men.

  25. A J HILL says:

    My decision to believe as I believe does not hang on Joseph Smith it is what I accept as truth. I hope that you can realize that attacking Joseph does not bother me it is not relevent. We have been using the Bible and only the Bible as a part of our discussion which I truly enjoy. I respect your position as to your beliefs. There is a history to your beliefs it does come from the continued efforts by rome to make peace with the many religious groups that were in contention with each other the Jews had one god who was spirit and I remind that Jesus was walking on water and his deciples thought he was a spirit and when they saw him after he was resurrected they thought he was a spirit and so my conclussion would be a spirit is a man without flesh and bone. Which reminds me that Jesus said that his father is perfect and we should try to be perfect, and then we have Jesus saying he would be perfected on the third day. Then you have the Christians who have gained popularity within the roman govt so they made sure to include Jesus as apart of deity but to seperate him from being god when it was nesessary, and oh yes what about the woman who could vote hey lets put Mary as a part of. This discussion went on for hundreds of years. I forgot about the romans they were into idols. And dont forget if you did not join you and family were no longer. and if you denied the theology then your family was murdered until you changed your mind and that it is said if a person leaves the church then the family would disown you.

  26. A J HILL says:

    Oh yes I never said that the bible contradicted itself I said that an interpretation must be in regaurds to total bible and not just one or two or 1000s of quotes it must be based on all the bible quotes.

  27. AJ,

    Just as proving that Joseph Smith was a false prophet doesn’t bother you, the unbiblical beliefs of Catholics don’t bother us. We join you in point out the error of Roman Catholicism.

    The doctrine of the Trinity comes from the Bible. It doesn’t come from Catholicism. The doctrine certainly predates Catholicism, and even the word “Trinity” was used by Tertullian around 190 A.D., long before the Catholic church.

    While it may not be fair for us to gang up on you, and I realize you can’t answer all of our questions because of time constraints, it seems to me that you’ve answered none of them. I gave Jason a long list of verses from the entire Bible that show that the Bible describes monotheism. You’ve fallen well short of demonstrating that the verses in Isaiah allow for polytheism, much less the other dozens.

    If you want to reject the Bible, that’s fine, but why don’t you just admit it? Why do you pretend that you can reconcile the Bible with Mormonism?

    Thanks,
    Bill

  28. AJ,

    I am trying to understand what you are writing, but your sentences and idea run into one another with no clear flow or pattern. It’s almost like you are ranting about one thing and another with no basis for what you are saying. It is very hard to dialog with someone like that, but I will do my best.

  29. A J HILL says:

    To Fourpointer my apologies in my method of writing I do that sometimes because of time and when I am on one subject then there will be a thought that comes to me and if I try to wait for a good time to present the info I might forget ha ha. In reality its just a bad habit and I will try to be more on point.

    To Coram Deo

    It is true that we believe that our Father in heaven was once like us and we can become like him. This is why I believe this is true. I cannot accept the Idea that this planet was created to be the only one to have life. I cannot believe that eternity would pass and no other planet would be created for other men to live in the same manner as we are. So if I am correct that other earths would be created to continue the building and expansion of the kingdom of God then there is a possibility that a savior would be needed. And since Jesus who you say is God has a body then He would have to send the spirit of God as before and now there are two Gods with bodies. I cannot believe that all the time that the universe has been in existence that this was the first earth to be created it would be like someone telling me that the earth was flat.

    The creation of an earth is not majic or a miracle it is the knowledge that God has that he is able to create He is one with the universe which gives him the ability to control matter.

    ___________________________________________________________________________________

    To all I am having this conversation with you not to convince you that I am right I do this to learn and its just fun. I understand this that even the master had just hand full of followers and the mases were only there for a handout. This is why he told the people that if they eat of his flesh and drink of his blood that they would gain eternal life and 99 percent of the people left his side. He could not convince those who did not want to believe and he would not force them.
    I look at it this way also if I am right and you are wrong then my efforts to honor my Father will not be in vain and my reward will be according to my works. As far as my salvation some would say that mormons believe in a different Savior. It is impossible to do so because there is only one Savior, and when the day of judgement comes then those who did not deny the holy ghost will have there salvation. I ask you to think about it this way would it be just to send someone to hell just because he was not at the skill level of comprehension that it takes to understand the nesessity of baptism and because he was not baptized he goes to hell, where is the mercy. mercy means that no matter what our faults there is always room for forgiveness just as long as we forgive.

  30. AJ,

    If you’re wrong, you’re going to spend eternity in hell. You are a polytheist. If there is only one God, then, polytheism is idolatry. Even if one of the gods you worshipped was the correct one, then any extra gods are simply idols, regardless of whether they share a name with the one true God.

    The first commandment is: You shall have no other gods before me (Exodus 20:3). If you are living in open rebellion to the first commandment, you have no savior, and you will answer for every time you’ve broken God’s law. Every lie, every time you’ve stolen, looked at someone with lust, dishonored your parents, or had a hateful thought is breaking God’s law, and just like any guilty criminal, you must be punished.

    While I have enjoyed this conversation as well, it is extremely serious. All I can tell you is that the Bible is very clear that there is only one God, and any book that contradicts that truth should be rejected. Please take some time to seriously consider these things.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  31. A J HILL says:

    Hello Bill I think you a misunderstanding of what I believe. I only acknowldge that there are others that have the ability or athority of a god. I only worship one and that is God the Father.

    I do remember Jesus saying that He did not know when he would return only the Father knew.

  32. AJ,

    Thank you for your reply. Sometimes it helps to just focus on one or two things when posting a comment. It took me a while to figure that out. Have one main focus (replying to the person you’re conversing with) and another point that you want the person to consider.

    So, back to the main thrust of my line of thought–the LDS belief that there are many LIVING, BEREATHING, EXALTED “Gods,” when the Bible is quite clear that there is only ONE. We need to remember something: in LDS theology, God (the Father, Elohim) had a father Himself. Elohim was born to a set of parents, who had parents, etc. Jesus went through the same progression. And He became exalted as God by going through a series of progressions. So contrary to traditional Christianity, Mormonism teaches that Jesus is not the highest and most exalted God–He, in fact, is beneath other Gods, and co-equal to His own brothers in “Godness” (to make up a word). This idea is a product of LDS teaching:

    “Jesus became a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws.” (Milton R. unter, The Gospel Through The Ages, p. 51)

    It is not found anywhere in the Bible.

    If you read Isaiah chapters 40-46, you will see that God goes to great lengths to explain that He is THE ONLY God who is capable of doing anything. That besides Him, there is no God. There is no being anywhere in existence–in this universe, or any other–who is capable of doing anything. He is not simply comparing Himself to dead idols, He is saying that He is THE ONLY GOD WHO CAN BE CALLED A GOD ANYWHERE (sorry for the caps. I’m not shouting, it’s simply for emphasis).

    In fact, if there were any other beings (gods, angels, etc) who helped in the creation as found in Abraham 4, then Jehovah contradicted Himself again in Isaiah 44:24–Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb: “I am Jehovah, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself.” Jesus created everything by Himself–He did not have any help, nor did He need any help. He did it alone. With that in mind, the Book of Abraham falls apart as being any kind of holy text, since it so glaringly contradicts the true word of God.

  33. AJ,

    The one true God is the LORD or Jehovah. As Fourpointer points out, He is the only God (Isaiah 40-46), and He gave the command that we should have no gods before Him (1st Commandment). According to you, Jehovah is Jesus. That means you should have no gods before Jesus, which would include the Father.

    Why do you only worship the Father when Jesus has commanded you to only worship Him? That is idolatry.

    Please think about this. I don’t point out the shortcomings of LDS doctrine to be mean, but because your eternity depends on having faith in the one true God.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  34. As a Christian, I find the direction and feeling that this conversation has taken to be edifying and informative. There are a few too many of these dialogues on-line that border on abusive, and bare no real fruit of love or humility. I do, however, understand the passion of some of those brethren who get so swept up in the emotions that can accompany evangelism that they forget God’s grace unto them and begin speaking (or typing) just like any worldly, academic debater. There is definitely a time for strong words, and there are also times for graceful contending. God willing, we have the wisdom to discern the time for both.

    Jude 22-23 – “And some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.”

    I have a new friend at work who is a Mormon. She and her husband seem to be very ‘active,’ as far as attendance and such. I have garnered much from reading these conversation with AJ, and others. Now prayerfully I can use some of this information to evangelize my coworker. I will mention you all, and AJ, in my prayers today.

    AJ: I too echo the last few words of Bill’s. From the outside, you look to me like a potential brother in Christ. You are someone I have never met, yet from the outset of this conversation I felt moved by your temperance, passion and sincerity. This passion and sincerity are meaningless and empty to our Lord Jesus Christ though, for without worshiping Him in spirit and TRUTH, the entire family of the cult of Mormonism is headed for an eternity in hell. That is almost too much to bare to think of. If it was not for the mercy and grace of God in my life 17 months ago I would be facing the same damnation.

    As for the cult of Joseph Smith, the cult of Mormonism:

    2 Peter 2:17 – “These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.”

    Should I be saddened by the fate of these people? Should I grieve the loss of millions of godless souls? I am not saddened for the loss of their leaders, teachers and founders. I am not saddened by the fact that J.S. is next to Charles Taze Russel (in reference to a later article on this blog about the JWs.) But what about the rest? How do you feel? I struggle with this. That my eyes do not weep when they should…

    Prayerfully, in Christ,

    Aaron

  35. Brother aaron,

    It is good to have someone from outside of the dialog see that we are showing the truth in love. And you’re right–it is easy to let our emotions get the best of us and turn it into a debate, rather than a chance to share the truth of Christ.

    I used to go on the discussion boards at CARM a few years ago. I hadn’t been back there for a while, and when I did check them out recently I could not believe the tone of some of the commenters. Rudeness, name-calling, you name it. I prefer the approach of men like John MacArthur and James White–share the truth, be calm, keep an even keel, don’t get carried away. That is the approach I have adopted in the last year or so, and I am more satisfied with the results. People may not be changed, but at least I will have shared the truth in Jesus’ way rather than in my own way. Yeah, I still get short sometimes, but it’s the exception more than the rule.

  36. AJ,

    You said: It is true that we believe that our Father in heaven was once like us and we can become like him.

    Based upon your testimony your god, the god that Mormons call Heavenly Father has changed over time (i.e. he was a man who progressed to become a god).

    What do you do with all the verses that declare that the God of the Holy Bible has been the same forever and has never and will never change? What do you do with all the verses that declare that the God of the Holy Bible is the Creator of EVERYTHING and that nothing that exists can exist without Him? What do you do with the verses in the Holy Bible where the God of the Holy Bible declares that there is NO GOD other than Him and that He doesn’t even know of any other God? Wouldn’t an omniscient God at least know about other Gods?

    You said: I only worship one and that is God the Father.

    So you withhold worship from Jesus Christ, God in the flesh? Why do you refuse to offer worship to Jesus Christ which thing He is due as God in the flesh?

    In Christ,
    CD

  37. A J HILL says:

    I worship God the Father through Jesus Christ the Mediator. I did have a question that no one has answered yet the one about Jesus saying only the Father knows when he will return. And one other question now that I think of it the twelve apostles are going to judge the 12 tribes. Its in Matthew. The sentiments I have read are what I was hopeing for because without respect there is no love and without love then the spirit of the God of love does not dwell within us. I love the words of John when reflects on love. He wrote that if you do not love your neighbor then you cannot love God.

    So thank you all and I will continue saturday night. I am working early tomorrow.

    A J

  38. AJ,

    You said: I only worship one and that is God the Father.

    Then you said: I worship God the Father through Jesus Christ the Mediator.

    Please answer more directly – do you worship Jesus Christ as God in the flesh, yes or no? When you say that you worship God the Father through Jesus Christ the Mediator does this mean that Jesus Christ is merely a conduit through which you offer worship to the Father, but yet you don’t offer any worship directly to Jesus Christ Himself?

    If you don’t offer worship to Jesus Christ who is God in the flesh please explain why not.

    As far as Matthew 24:36–Jesus said, “Of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.” This was a true statement because during His incarnation God the Son set aside the operation of His full deity. This is because the Eternal Son humbled Himself to be obedient unto death being made a sin offering and a sacrifice for all those who would come unto Him by grace through faith alone.

    When Jesus Christ re-assumed His full glory and the full operation of His deity which He shared with the Father from all eternity He also re-assumed all knowledge, which thing He had willingly set aside during His earthly incarnation.

    As far as the 12 apostles judging the 12 tribes this is simply the fulfillment of God’s promise that those who belong to Christ will share in His triumph and rule with Him. This is why true Christians are called a Royal Priesthood in 1 Peter 2:9. Those who belong to Christ were created and predestined before the foundations of the world to serve and glorify Him forever.

    All is of Christ and for Christ and to Christ and His glory (Colossians 3:11) and those who are called by His Holy Name get the unspeakable privilege of sharing in His resurrection and enjoying His glorious presence forever and ever.

    Christ is all.

    In Christ,
    CD

  39. A J HILL says:

    I will try it this way. In our premortal state which means we were spirits in the presence of God the Father Jesus calls out to Him as Abba Father in Mark 14 36. We as spirits desired to become like the Father to have a body of flesh and bone. Please understand this without a shell a light bulb does not emit light, and without a body a spirit cannot emit light. So we seen the glorification of the Father and again I say we wanted to be like Him. When Adam and Eve were exilled from the garden it was said by God that they had become like us us is plural knowing good from evil. He then offered to all that were with Him if they would accept this one that we know Jesus which I say is Jehovah in the old testament as our savior, Lord, King and Judge. So if Jesus physically came into my presence I would kneel in His presence and if the Father physically came into my presence I would kneel in his presence. I would treat them one in the same because of my love for them. So how can I get to the Father Jesus says though Him. So to truly answer this question and be right is impossible in a way because my love and respect for them both is equal I have that kind of love for all now would I bow before them with that kind of respect. Well I am reminded of these things as you have done for the least you have done unto me and Jesus humbled Himself in the presence of the Apostles by washing there feet.

    I do appreciate your time and questions

    AJ

  40. A J HILL says:

    There is a verse in John where Jesus say that His Father is greater than I its chapter 14 ver 28. and I remind you again that when Jesus chastised a person for believeing there was only one God what do you say to this its in Mark starting with chapter 12 ver 29 Just a couple of things if you have an opinion on these

  41. AJ,

    Jehovah said that you should have no gods before Him. If you believe Jesus is Jehovah, worshipping the Father is pure idolatry. All idolaters will have their part in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8).

    Jesus submitted Himself to living a human life. He had to do all of the human things we do that aren’t pleasant. He was God in heaven, but He lowered Himself to life on earth to redeem us from our sins (Philippians 2:5-11). While Jesus was always equal to the Father (John 5:18), his human nature was less than His Father.

    Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you wrote, but Jesus said that “God is one” in Mark 12:29. The guy that asked Jesus the question, agreed with Jesus, and Jesus said He isn’t far from the kingdom (Mark 12:34). When the Bible says “God is one,” that means there is only one God.

    All of that is compelling evidence for the Trinity. Jesus is worshipped (Hebrews 1:6), and the Father is worshipped (John 4:23), but there is only one God (Mark 12:29), and we are to have no gods before Him (Exodus 20:3). Worshipping any God other than the LORD/Jehovah is idolatry. Clearly, Jesus and the Father are one (John 10:30). Jesus is Jehovah. The Father is Jehovah. That is the only possible solution.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  42. AJ,

    Can I get an answer from you about the discrepency between Jehovah telling Isaiah that HE created the universe BY HIMSELF, verus the Book of Abraham ch.4 saying that “They (The Gods)” did the creating? Is this another case of Jesus not being truthful?

  43. AJ,

    You said: I will try it this way. In our premortal state which means we were spirits in the presence of God the Father Jesus calls out to Him as Abba Father in Mark 14 36.

    False. There is ZERO reference in Mark 14:36 for humans being found before God in our “premortal states”. Jesus was here referring to His Father in Heaven as “Abba”, which is an intimate term of loving endearment. Christ here also reasserts His earthly incarnate submission to His Heavenly Father’s will thus proving that Jesus Christ’s will was always (from eternity) in perfect unity and harmony with God the Father’s will which thing serves to highlight and emphasize Jesus Christ’s deity and equality with God the Father.

    There is only One True and Living God who alone enjoys perfect unbroken unity and harmony of will with Himself.

    You said: We as spirits desired to become like the Father to have a body of flesh and bone. Please understand this without a shell a light bulb does not emit light, and without a body a spirit cannot emit light.

    False. This is completely unbiblical and can only be believed by rejecting the plain teaching of the Holy Bible in favor of another source. I have no idea where the light bulb and spirit emitting light analogy is coming from but again it has ZERO basis in the Holy Bible which is the One True and Living God’s singular and unique self-revelation of Himself.

    You said: So we seen the glorification of the Father and again I say we wanted to be like Him.

    False. Once again we find this statement is completely unbiblical and could only be believed by rejecting the plain teaching of the Holy Bible in favor of another source.

    You said: When Adam and Eve were exilled from the garden it was said by God that they had become like us us is plural knowing good from evil.

    This statement was made in self-reference to the Triune God (Father, Son & Holy Spirit) who represent the Three Persons of the One True and Living God (a.k.a. the Trinity).

    You said: He then offered to all that were with Him if they would accept this one that we know Jesus which I say is Jehovah in the old testament as our savior, Lord, King and Judge.

    As Bill has rightly pointed out if you believe that Jesus is Jehovah, as you claim, then if you worship the Father as a different god then you are a guilty idolater who worships at least two different gods.

    As if to make it plain that you are a guilty idolater who worships multiple gods you then state:

    So if Jesus physically came into my presence I would kneel in His presence and if the Father physically came into my presence I would kneel in his presence.

    If you are kneeling before more than the One True and Living God then according to the Holy Bible this is idolatry and you are a guilty idolater because you worship at least two different gods.

    And then to really hammer home the point that you are a guilty idolater you claim:

    So to truly answer this question and be right is impossible in a way because my love and respect for them both is equal I have that kind of love for all now would I bow before them with that kind of respect.

    The Holy Bible says that you are to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind soul and strength and the One True and Living God of the Holy Bible says that you are to worship no other gods but Him and Him alone. Based upon these truths from God’s Word and according to your own testimony here you are an idolater.

    You said: Well I am reminded of these things as you have done for the least you have done unto me and Jesus humbled Himself in the presence of the Apostles by washing there feet.

    Yes, Jesus Christ humbled Himself to the point of being obedient unto death and therefore He became the Savior whereby no man can come unto the Father except by the Son, Jesus Christ the Lord.

    Have you ever sinned AJ? Are you a sinner? According to the Holy Bible how can a sinner be forgiven for his sins? According to the Holy Bible no sin is acceptable in the sight of God and His Word plainly states that idolaters will be damned by the absolutely Holy, Righteous and Infinite Creator and Judge of the universe and cast into hellfire where they will be consciously tormented forever and ever. By your own testimony you are an active idolater AJ therefore God’s Word condemns you to hell unless you repent of your false religion and trust in Christ alone who is the Word of God made flesh.

    Repent of your false religion AJ, turn away from your idolatry and worship the One True and Living God, the Infinite Creator and Judge of the universe Who alone is able to forgive your sins and trespasses and translate you from spiritual death unto spiritual life by the once and for all perfect sacrifice of the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, the risen Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.

    In Christ,
    CD

  44. A J HILL says:

    Coram deo if I am who you say I am then so be it I know what I know. If you cannot stop condeming me then it is hard for spirit of intelectual communication to continue. I would have to go into a mode of defending what I know. Friends encourage and a mutual respect for each other not discontent. I know that it is hard not to get emotional in such discussions but I refuse to defend what I know by condeming people to hell. It is an old tactic used for centuries to force a change. But a real change comes from the heart not because of fear but because of love. So to all who condemn me to hell for your sake I hope you are right because if not judge not lest ye be judge meaning for how you judge to be exact with the bible so shall thee. Pay little attention to that last sentence I could have deleted it but I thoght we could get back on track with the condemnation. So now to all lets continue. Does God have a body. And we all agreed to this because Jesus has a body and was resurrected. There is evidence in revelations that says that one third of the host of heaven was cast out. So this leaves two thirds of the spirits left in heaven now with Jesus. What if one of them asked Jehovah to live on this as He did in a mortal body and then to be resurrected as He was, Could Jehovah grant this desire to them. Also I think I have made it very clear that I am not shy about the fact that God the Father came from an earth much like our own and has a council just like the one that will be with Jevovah at our judgement. As for the one who is trying to trick Jesus in Mark none of you got to the part of Lord of my Lord. Another one is the other quote about Jesus saying Abba to the one He cried out to. This was only to refer to the same Father that I worship. I worship the God of love. And to answer the difference between Abraham and Isaiah and the idea that there is only one God. To tell you the truth I had concern for these very quotes but maybe there is a difference on how I approached this question. For one I had real desire to know and equal to that desire is my faith that my Father who loves me enough to provide the bread and water to my physical needs would also be there for things that impact my eternal soul. So I asked and months went by and out of the blue the word atoms came to me. The whole universe is one mass there is no seperation from me to you. realize this one this the air you breath is not visible to the human eye but it surrounds each one of us and covers the whole world. Atoms even make up our spirits and that means that even God himself is made up of the same physical matter that he left earth with. so is there one God absolutly because the universe is. one other note is before the planets are as they are now before they were formed they were atomic energy. So is there more than one God of coarse there is because the universe consist of more than this earth as a place where human life exist and is this speculation then so is columbus statment to find a new way to india.

  45. AJ the Bible condemns you, not any particular individual Christian. We are given authority to preach repentance in the name of Jesus, through God’s Word. If the LDS had been around in the time of John the Baptist, and of Jesus, you would have heard the exact same thing. If the LDS was around during the first 2 millenium, God’s wrath would have annihilated it. Hell isn’t a “tactic,” it is a reality, and those who believe in anything other than what the Word of God teaches (“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”) is definitely condemned to that place. Do you really think that Christ’s bride, the Holy Church of God, can consist of pretty much anyone who says “Lord, Lord…”?

  46. A J HILL says:

    To aaron the point I am trying to make is I want a discussion not for any hidden tactic to convert. Myself I am an exclusionary. Meaning I do not want just anyone joining the church I just want to talk to people on an intelectual basis about what one believes. So just a question did Jesus tell the lady at the well she was going to hell because of her beliefs as I remember only about two percent of the who bible is of condemnation and most of it is our salvation.

    Have a good day

  47. AJ,

    I’m grateful for the time you’ve spent, but it seems obvious to me that you can’t answer our objections. Each of us has attempted intellectual arguments, and received no real response. If I were you I would be very worried about whether your doctrine is leading you to idolatry. The consequences of idolatry are very real. If you’re believing in a false Jesus, you will give account for your own sins. Please think about it.

    If I haven’t answered your question about Mark 12 adequately, or any other question, I’d be happy to explain further, but I’m not certain where we’re missing each other. Maybe you can rephrase your question.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  48. A J HILL says:

    Hi my friends I know its been some time but my schedule has been interupted and first chane I get I will try to answer all of your question to the best of my ability but in the mean time just a thought. The bible does say if you call someone a fool then this could condemn you to hell. I guess I will go to hell for that one too. HA HA

    Have a great day

    A J

  49. A J HILL says:

    Hello Fourpointer

    I will try and answer your question to the best of my ability. The quote you are refering to is in the book of Abraham. For one I thought our discussion was based on the Bible itself. I do not have a problem discussing the two ideas about the nature of God but if you are trying to convince me that if the book of Abraham is wrong then the theology that I hold to is wrong, and the quotes that I choose to give you is from the bible, you cannot gain from this, because believe or not I get the same theology from the bible that Jesus is the literal Son of a living being known as our Father. I pray to the Same Father as Jesus the Christ did. Do I believe in a different Jesus than you do according to you and all who have written me. I am not ashamed of what I believe. I have talked to many different people about what I believe including a Catholic priest, a minister of a apostolic pentecostal church the pastor from a local prison and many of my friends at church and even one of them got up and walked out of the classroom because of what I said. A lot of times I get in more disagreable discussion with members of my own church than I do talking to all of you, and that is the truth. And you are thinking you can be bold and still be wrong, true, but I will not be on a fence and I will not be tosed to and fro with the wind. To me if I am firm about my beliefs and I am wrong and then accept truth as it is presented to me when I am judjed I am better off than to change every time someone disputed my theology. Our Master wants people who are loyal to the end.

    So what about Isaiah being told that there is only one God and only one Savior. Lets analyze this point. Is there only one God for us? Of course there is. The one who was speaking to Isaiah was Jehovah. He is the one who will always have domion over us because without Him we cannot have a ressurected body. If we want to be apart of His kingdom then we must submit not only our actions but our hearts and why is the heart so important, its because that is what your spirit is.

    Just a quick question, when we die does our spirit just automatically change to a God fearing spirit or does our spirit continue to be as it is now if you are prideful now does your spirit continue to be prideful, and etc.

    So when he says that there is no other God beside me this is absolute truth, and I accept this because it is written and someday I will be taught the complete understanding of why He said what He said. I still think that He knew this would bring the Jews into an outrage, and also when the truth of the nature of God was presented to us, then those who believed and were completely faithful even with onslaught of those who say I am going to hell was presented as an argument, we would have to choose and those who stay firm with their testimony would be blessed. He does not want just anyone joining His Church He only wants the very elect. When He stated how He was the Son of God, and when He told them that ye are gods. If the writtings of Isaiah did not read in this manner then it would have not have been an issue. Dont forget He chastised a person for saying there is only one God. by referring to David saying Lord of my Lord. The attitude of the Jews would not have been so as to call Him the son of the devil in so many words, and then the Son of God would not have been crucified. Another thing to think about when Genesis was written, was it written on the same day as the other books that Moses wrote or was there years in between each book. I would say the latter. So when it says us and our and the people at the time that were taught of these things would come to the conclusion that there was more than one God. You guys fix a name to this called the triune of God. This is the best you can come up with get real. You think that just because you have a word for what is written it explains the nature of God. Do not forget that we are not privy at this time to even have one drop of the knowledge of God.

    I have learned this one truth that the more learn the less I know. Meaning as a young child I learned how to count. Then I learned the value of each number and as I developed these skills with numbers I had more to learn starting with add and continueing into longer equations, until calculous and that is not the end just as much as .01 .001 etc. This number is infinite and so is math.

    Another question does the bible contain all the knowledge that God has, probably not. So is it possible He could someday teach us more even after we are resurrected.

    ________________________________________________________________________

    I just read some of the discusion that God was spirit and through our discusion because Jesus is God and has a body of flesh and bone then God is not spirit? Maybe.

  50. AJ,

    The Father is Spirit (John 4:24). No one has seen the Father (John 6:46, which means Joseph Smith has not seen Him).

    Jesus is God, and has a body of flesh and bone. The Father is God, and most of the time in the New Testament, when it refers to God, it is speaking of God the Father. Most of the time, when the NT speaks of the Lord, it’s speaking of Jesus.

    You’re having trouble reconciling LDS doctrine with the Bible, and that doesn’t disprove the Bible. It just shows that LDS doctrine and the Bible are contradictory. I really think you need to decide which one is false, and throw one of them in the trash.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  51. A J HILL says:

    So no one has seen the Father except the Son so you say the interpretation of the bible. A real quick and easy answer is Stephan being filled with Holy Ghost, looked up and saw the Son standing on the right hand of God. I imagine you have an answer that suits your theology. But I do have a question about this idea, no one is no one is that correct? I just wonder if Satan has seen the Father, or those prophets and apostles that are with Him now. Another idea is God has no form because He is Spirit, but I say this again He Him Father Abba Elohim are all names referring to a male being and not an it, niether male or femal.

  52. AJ,

    Jesus said, “Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father” (John 6:46, KJV).

    In order to believe that Joseph Smith saw the Father, you’re going to have to explain how Joseph Smith is an exception to what Jesus said in that verse. I know it’s unpleasant to think about Joseph Smith being a false prophet, but I really see no way around this for you.

    Stephen saw Jesus. Jesus was standing at the right hand of God. Stephen didn’t see the Father. No man has seen the Father. This answer suits my theology, because it is what the Bible says. Many people have seen Elohim/Jehovah who is Jesus (Deut 4:35).

    How did Joseph Smith see the Father? Was Jesus wrong, or is Joseph Smith wrong?

    I really see no way around this for you. You must reject the Bible or the LDS church. They can’t both be right. Do you realize that while you may have very good intentions, if you worship a misconception of the biblical God that you are an idolater?

    Thanks,
    Bill

    p.s. If you think Jesus rebuked someone for saying there is only one God, you may want to read that passage again carefully.

  53. Bill,

    Thank you for filling in for me during my lengthy absence in this thread. School is taking up way more of my time than I anticipated, and for that I apologize to all my fellow DefCon contribs (including Brian and Nathan). I’d rather say nothing than to say something in haste that would be contrary to the truth.

    AJ,

    I’m still not understanding what you believe. Back here you said, quote, “I only acknowldge that there are others that have the ability or athority of a god. I only worship one and that is God the Father.

    However, here, you said, quote, “Is there only one God for us? Of course there is. The one who was speaking to Isaiah was Jehovah. He is the one who will always have domion over us because without Him we cannot have a ressurected body.

    Now, if, as you say, you “only” worship God the Father, then you go on to say that Jesus is our only God, that means one of two things:

    1) You are worshipping two separate Gods, or
    2) God the Father and God the Son are one God

    And as far as the passage where Jesus quotes Psalm 110, I think you may be confusing it with another passage.

    Matthew 22:36-38–He said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying: ‘The LORD said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool” If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his Son?”

    This was not Jesus rebuking someone for saying there was only one God. Jesus was asking someone why David called Jesus ‘Lord’ if He was a descendant of David.

    And this brings up an interesting question. As you may well know, when we see the word ‘LORD’ in all caps in the Old Testament, it refers to the name ‘YHVH,’ or ‘Jehovah.’ That being the case, who then is the 2nd ‘Lord’ in Psalm 110, and who does Jesus say He will have sit at His right hand?

  54. A J HILL says:

    I say we need to go to a different subject and once you understand my standing on pre existence and then you will understand why I what I say is truth. This is my base and without a base then you cannot understand what I am saying the nature of God is.

    Have a great Thanksgiving

    A J

  55. AJ,

    The thing is, there is no “pre-existence” to speak of, except for the fact that God–Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (being ONE GOD)–existed before anything else, and that no one was with them. There was no “Council of Gods,” There was no “eternal family.” There was nothing but God.
    Romans 4:17 says that God “calleth those things which be not as though they were.” In other words, God createed everything out of nothing, with nobody’s help. No angels, no other “Gods”–He Himself did everything by Himself.

    When you come back from Thanksgiving, I would be interested to read who the other “Lord” is that Jesus is talking to in Psalm 110, and who He says will sit at His right hand.

  56. AJ,

    The holy angels weren’t cast out of heaven, they remain as spirit messengers of God, the rebellious angels (which we know as demons) were cast out along with Satan.

    According to the Holy Bible human beings are a completely different order of creation than angels. There are no “spirit children” in heaven who become human beings on earth, this is just another demonic lie fabricated by the false prophet Joseph Smith, Jr.

    There’s only One True and Living God in all of existence and He alone created everything from nothing for His own purposes and for His own good pleasure. There are no gods beside Him and He even claims that He knows of no other gods, which thing of course an omniscient (all knowing) God would certainly know.

    There is no “progression to godhood”, there is no way for sinful men to become gods of their own planets (or universes), the Father didn’t used to be a man who came from the plant Kolob, and He doesn’t have endless celestial sexual intercourse with His innumerable goddess wives in order to produce spirit children, there are no men living on the sun or the moon, there were no golden plates discovered and deciphered by Joseph Smith, Jr., no angel Moroni, no Lamenites no Nephites, nothing…it’s all just an elaborate lie cooked up by a perverse, degenerate man who decided to invent a false religion that would allow him to have multiple sexual partners including married women and young girls under the cloak of divine commandment.

    Mormonism is a sham, a charade, and a farce that leads its adherents souls to unspeakably horrific torments in hell fire for all eternity just as all other false religions do.

    In Christ,
    CD

  57. FP,

    Mormons believe that the “two thirds” who weren’t cast out of heaven are the “Heavenly Father’s” spiritual children who come to earth to inhabit human bodies to merit worthiness in the progression to godhood.

    I’m assuming that AJ is trying to turn the conversation towards this point to further his erroneous belief in “pre-existence”. Sadly for him and Mormon theology there is no Biblical support for human pre-existence, in fact quite the opposite is in view in scripture.

    To paraphrase a line of argumentation presented by the web resource of aframer1 for example: [begin paraphrase] in Job 38:1-4, 18, 21 Job is asked a series of questions by God that he (Job) couldn’t answer in Job 40:3-5, 42:1-3 because he (Job) didn’t yet exist.

    Furthermore in John 3:6 we read that which is born of the flesh is flesh therefore the false Mormon “flesh-and-bones” god could not possibly beget “spirit children” by his innumerable “flesh-and-bones” goddess wives. The Bible also teaches that all mankind is equally guilty in sin and trespass before God and all believers are equally forgiven in Christ. God is no respecter of persons because He is the great Creator of all the kingdoms, tribes, tongues and nations of men. [end paraphrase]

    In Christ,
    CD

    P.S. – What about the 1/3 that got kicked out you may wonder? What happened to them? Well, according to Mormon theology they also came to earth to inhabit human bodies and they consititute the black African race.

    For example:

    …Those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellion against God and his murder of Abel being a black skin. (Moses 5:16-41; 7:8,12,22.) Noah’s son Ham married Egyptus, a descendant of Cain, thus preserving the negro lineage through the flood. (Abra. 1:20-27.) Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty.” (1966 edition, page 527, under NEGROES; this statement has been taken out of the 1979 edition and has been replaced with the 1978 revelation.)Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie

    and again:

    There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less…There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits. (Doctrines of Salvation, by Joseph Fielding Smith, 1954; 1:61, 65-66)

    HT for the two prior quotes to aframer1

    and again:

    Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses, Vol.10, p.109)

  58. A J HILL says:

    CD you left out so many other charges about Joseph Smith and dont forget Brigham he said Adam is our father and our God. I say this again if you try to make this about Joseph Smith then you are making a case for your beliefs you are only telling us things that say that Joseph Smith was a false prophet. He is my prophet because I accept him as a prophet. I still hold strong to this I do not quote from any other resource except the bible and so if you are not answering using the bible then your statements are not relevent.

    ___________________________________________________

    Let us continue on with the prexistence and why is it so relevent. For one the third that were cast out will never gain a body. The idea of our prexistence does not come from any one quote such as I knew the before you were in your mothers womb. John before he was born was moving about in the womb in some sort of exitment when Mary was near. You have Cain and Abel who are being raised by our first parents and no one else exept Satan or God to influence there decision and the one chooses good and the othe evil, and even Adam and Eve had different personalities of course. Jesus Himself was prexistent to the earth. Another part of this is if when one dies does not our spirit continue to exist until our resurection. There is a quote in first or second Peter that says Jesus preached to the spirits in prison, oh the man on the cross was told that he would be with Him in paridise, which the correct translation I have been told is the spirit world the translation is not the issue just the mans post mortal existence. So if we are post mortal to our existence on the earth as spirits then what is the likelyhood that we were premortal. Lets go shortly to this idea that all men and women must have the same opportunities in life to accept Jesus the Son of the living God and dont forget that death is associated with a body that has no spirit, as their Savior and this seems to me that if we were not given an equal opportunity to accept Him then justice and mercy could not for every be at a balance.

    __________________________________________________

    When the master speaks of the sower who sowed his seed and those that fell by the wayside were devoured by the birds, and He continues the parable which in reality shows a patern of a positive person a person who is neutral and a person who is negative. But those who were devoured by the birds did not even get a chance to even exit as a plant or a human because they cast to the wayside. You can read this parable in the thirteenth chapter of Matthew.

    ___________________________________________________

    I will try just a little more. When the host of heaven are spoken of if you include all that exist the one third and the two thirds. There is not a line that says these are 100 percent good and these are 100 percent evil. It is actually on a curve on one point you have truth and on the other you have lies. Jesus being perfect truth and Satan being the creator of lies, and from each point you have a contiuous line that you will see people such as Hitler that is more evil than good, or Peter who is more good than evil, and in the middle those who are neutral and will blend in with which ever group they are assciated with. There is more but it is a long conversation.

    A J

  59. AJ said: I do not quote from any other resource except the bible and so if you are not answering using the bible then your statements are not relevent.

    Here’s something we can finally agree on. The Holy Bible is the only authoritative revelation that God has given to mankind and any other spiritual source that teaches anything contrary to, or that adds to, or that takes away from the Word of God as it is contained uniquely within Holy Bible is neither relevant nor trustworthy.

    With this in mind I challenge you to make a case for Mormonism using only the Holy Bible since theological statements from any other source which contradict the Holy Bible in any way are not relevant and therefore cannot be trusted.

    All of your comments since you made the statement quoted above twist and change the plain teaching of the Holy Bible in a futile effort to force it to make sense in the light of Mormon theology. We must interpret all spiritual matters in the light of the Holy Bible, not the other way around.

    Presently you’re coming at scripture from your own preconceived Mormon viewpoint and trying to make it fit, but it never will because Mormonism is a satanic lie. In your own words you have claimed that any resource other than the Bible is irrelevant. This means all extrabiblical texts (sources other than the Holy Bible) claiming spiritual truth must be judged by the Holy Bible which is the absolute standard for spiritual truth since it is the unique Word of God. Extrabiblical texts (sources other than the Holy Bible) include the Book of Mormon, the D&C, and The Pearl of Great Price. Again I agree with your statement that quoting “from any other resource except the bible” as they relate to spiritual matters or truth claims about spiritual matters which teach anything that is in any way contrary to, or that adds to, or that takes away from the Word of God is irrelevant and therefore I challenge you (again) to make your case for Mormonism here strictly from the Holy Bible.

    The truth is that Mormonism is a “Bible plus” religion just like the Jehovah’s Witnesses (Bible plus the Watchtower), Roman Catholicism (Bible plus tradition, plus the catechism, plus sacraments) and every other cult of Christianity apart from Biblical Christianity which is Sola Scriptura (Bible only – by scripture alone). Therefore Mormonism is a false, soul-damning religion no matter how much you may personally believe or feel that its teachings are true. Neither the false teachings of the false prophet Joseph Smith, nor your feelings about him are the measure of truth, the Holy Bible is the measure of truth and Mormonism doesn’t line up with the Holy Bible, therefore it must be rejected as a lie.

    In Christ,
    CD

    P.S. – you also said: He is my prophet because I accept him as a prophet. I still hold strong to this I do not quote from any other resource except the bible and so if you are not answering using the bible then your statements are not relevent.

    Since Joseph Smith, Jr.’s teachings about progression to godhood, spirit children, the planet Kolob, Lamenites, Nephites, men living in the sun, men living on the moon, secretly coded golden plates, the latter day priesthood, the restored gospel – none of the teachings of Mormon religion are in the Holy Bible how can you claim that you “do not quote from any other resource except the Bible”? How can you believe in Mormonism if you reject the other three Mormon scriptures which they add to the Bible?

  60. A J HILL says:

    AJ,

    Maybe my last comment to you wasn’t clear enough, so I’ll try again. DefCon is not your personal soapbox from which you can continue to blithely ignore scriptural objections to your false, personal, and unbiblical religious beliefs – get your own blog for that.

    In your comments henceforth you must make your case from the Holy Bible since, in your own words you stated: “I do not quote from any other resource except the bible and so if you are not answering using the bible then your statements are not relevant.”

    In Christ,
    CD

  61. A J HILL says:

    Fair enough but I did put forth my understanding of the contents in the bible about the prexistence and no one even commented back to me about what I wrote. You are the ones who invited me under certain conditions and I will try to come as close to those conditions as I can. I am still enjoying our conversation and hope we can continue. So is there any chance that someone can respond to what I have previously wrote about the prexistence. So I ask for a response on this one issue does the spirit that exist in us continue to exist after our mortal death and if so in what capacity.

    A J

    _________________________________________________________________________

    Bill I apologize that I did not respond about seeing the Father. Could it be that at the time which was before Jesus death that no man had seen the Father, this could be true. So is it possible that He could be seen by someone after this statement was made.

  62. AJ said: Fair enough but I did put forth my understanding of the contents in the bible about the prexistence and no one even commented back to me about what I wrote.

    That’s simply not true, AJ. Maybe you didn’t read the responses or maybe you’re just ignoring them, but it’s patently clear to everyone else reading here that your argumentation that the 2/3 and 1/3 of beings in heaven are “pre-existent” human beings is false. Instead the 2/3 and 1/3 in heaven are represented as angels in the Bible and the Bible makes it clear that human beings and angels are completely different orders of beings (creations). The 2/3 are the holy angels and the 1/3 are fallen angels (demons). This is what the Bible teaches.

    I also responded to your pre-existence argument by citing Job who was unable to answer God’s questions because he (Job) didn’t yet exist:

    To paraphrase a line of argumentation presented by the web resource of aframer1 for example: [begin paraphrase] in Job 38:1-4, 18, 21 Job is asked a series of questions by God that he (Job) couldn’t answer in Job 40:3-5, 42:1-3 because he (Job) didn’t yet exist.

    And let’s not forget that Jesus Christ Himself said Before Abraham was, I AM. This clearly indicates that Christ was (and is) God from all eternity and that His existence is eternal and infinite while Abraham’s existence began in time as a creation (a human being).

    Remember to keep your comments 100% supported by the Holy Bible or they will be considered “not relevant” by your own criteria and will be edited or deleted.

    In Christ,
    CD

  63. AJ,

    1 Timothy 6:16 says, referring to God the Father, “Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.” This verse was written after Jesus’ resurrection.

    If you read the Bible for what it says, the Father is Spirit. He doesn’t have a body of flesh and bone. He cannot be seen.

    While you may believe we have a bias against Joseph Smith, we have a passion for understanding the Bible. If we believed the Bible said there were 3 gods, and the Father had a physical body, we would be preaching it from the roof tops. However, the Bible clearly teaches the Trinity, and the only reason you don’t see it is because you’re trying to fit Mormonism into the Bible. It just doesn’t work.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  64. Revelation 21:22–But I saw no temple in [New Jerusalem], for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

    The father and the Son are one temple. Notice, John does not say they are temples, plural.

    AJ, If they are two separate beings, how can they be ONE temple? And what will happen when Jesus gets His own universe to rule over? Will He stop being the temple? Remember, answer using only the Bible.

  65. A J HILL says:

    Hello CD remember the demons that were cast out of a person and the demons asked to be cast into the swine. I say they desired to be physical having any body even swine. I say if they had the ability to be in man that had a spirit then if a spirit that would be good would want to be in a body is it possible God to create a body for them.

    and is there a post mortal existence to the spirits before they are resurected.

    A J

  66. mbaker says:

    “and is there a post mortal existence to the spirits before they are resurected.”

    That sounds very much like the Catholic belief of purgatory. Care to give us chapter and verse on that?

  67. A J HILL says:

    I have said that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison which is in first or second Peter. Jesus told the man on the cross that he would be in paradise with Him on this day and yet He was not going to be resurrected until the third day. Also you have Jesus communcating with Moses and others on the mount of transfiguration.

    I am wondering Bill has Moses seen God after he was taken up. The question is is Moses still a mortal man he did not see death and I quote again that there was two ocasions in which the apostles thoght that Jesus was a spirit once was when He was walking on the water and the other was when He was resurected and there He told them that a spirit hath not flesh and bone this leaves with this conclusion that a Spirit is a human without flesh and bone. As far as God being spirit, I say He was talking in terms of worship that we should poor out our spirit to God and He will poor out His spirit to us. Flesh and bone without the spirit is dead but without flesh and bone there is no light because flesh and bone act as an element just as a light bulb. So who is greater Jesus the resurrected God or God the Father who you say is spirit and Jesus says in John 14 28 the Father is greater than I. The obvious one is Jesus told Mary after His resurrection that He will ascend to the Father who is her Father and is my God and her God. What strikes me odd is that we discussed this before and Jesus is God in the flesh but here he says He has a Father and a God. Lets remember how many times that He says that the Father sent Him and He will send the Holy Ghost. This me an understanding that they were both in the same way sent by the Father. Jesus was not told after He came to the earth that He was sent but while He was still with the Father in His premortal state of being.

    Mostly I want know your thoughts on post mortal existence of spirits

    Have a good day.

    A J

  68. AJ,

    I have to admit that you lost me on your last comment. I’m not really sure what you were getting at.

    In Luke 16:19-31, Jesus describes Abraham’s bosom. This is where OT saints went to await Jesus’ atoning sacrifice. It is apparently down near hell, but is a place of comfort, with a great gulf between it and hell.

    After His death, Jesus went to Abraham’s bosom, and proclaimed the gospel (1 Peter 3:18-19), and led them to heaven (Eph 4:8-11). They, along with us, await the redemption of our bodies, which will take place at Christ’s second coming (Romans 8:23). I hope this clears up some confusion on these verses.

    Ephesians 4:8-11: “Therefore it says, ‘When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, And He gave gifts to men.’ (Now this expression, ‘He ascended,’ what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)”

    1 Peter 3:18-19: “For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison.”

    Thanks,
    Bill

  69. A J HILL says:

    Hello Bill
    I really apreciate the content in which you use to answer back I have a great respect for you and I will try to be more clear. I am trying to say that our spirits continue on existing after we die and are awaiting our resurection. It seems to be that is what you believe, but I do not want to miss represent what you have said

    Thanks again for the manner in which you have responded.

    A J

  70. A J HILL says:

    So Bill if we can have a post most mortal existence as a spirit then why can we not have a premortal existence too.

    A J

  71. Ministry Addict says:

    For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. Psalm 139:13-16

  72. AJ,

    If the Bible said there was a pre-existence, I would believe that there was. However it says, like Ministry Addict pointed out, that we are created in our mother’s womb.

    1 Corinthians 15:46 says, “Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.” The natural is first–not the spiritual.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  73. AJ,

    Where in scripture can you show evidence from the Holy Bible that any human being had a pre-existent state?

    The only human being who ever made such a claim was the God-man Jesus Christ. He has eternally existed as the Word of God without beginning or end yet He humbled Himself to His Father’s will and took on flesh to become God’s acceptable sacrifice for sin, thereby becoming the glorious risen Savior of those who come to Him by grace alone through faith alone.

    According to the Holy Bible men are created beings, which are created by God in time in the flesh. Angels are another order of created being that were created by God and they are ministering spirits (the holy angels) or else they are fallen angels (demons).

    If you don’t have support from the Holy Bible for your spiritual beliefs then your beliefs are wrong, not the Bible.

    In Christ,
    CD

    P.S. – How are your sins forgiven, AJ? In other words how can you be acceptable to the absolutely perfect, righteous and holy, holy, holy infinite Creator and Judge of the universe?

  74. A J HILL says:

    Hello all
    I read ch. 15 of first Corinthians. I say it is speaking mostly about the resurection. You are correct to say that there is not one verse in the Bible that presents undeniable evidence that we were spirits before the earth was formed. It does speak of Angels and demonds and persons who came to speak to a person on behalf of God. I do remember Solomon writing in Prov. 8: 22-31 that he was there before the earth was formed. James 2 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. Ecc 12 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Jer. 1: 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Job 38: 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? So what evidence have I given the of a premortal existence, I would say not much. There are more verses that I could quote but I find it not to have much steam. I do have a question for all. What do you say is a spirit exactly. I have said it is a person without flesh and bone but has the abillity to think and act on his or her own desires.

    ____________________________________________________________________

    CD how can my sins be forgiven. I say this no matter how you or I think we can do nothing save it be have faith in Jesus Christ and accept Him as our Lord and Master. He knows my heart and He knows your heart, and if we love him and do all we can to have a relationship with Him there is nothing more we can do. He will forgive a murderer but He would not forgive me because I read the bible in a perspective contrary to yours. If one missunderstands one verse in the Bible and goes his whole life with the belief that he or she is in full compliance with the word does that send them to hell. God is the one who dictated, and inspired men to write what is known as the Bible. I cannot believe that there is even one person that has ever lived on the earth that has interpreted the writtings of the prophets and apostles (who even after they were taught would have to ask for clarification) in one accord with God and His understanding. So how accurate does a person have to be to not have sinned against God when interpretting the bible?

    A J

  75. AJ,

    I’m enjoying our conversation, and I appreciate your time.

    I agree that there just isn’t much in the Bible that would indicate a pre-existence. I would say that even the verses you cited really don’t indicate anything about a pre-existince. Jeremiah 1:5 is the only one that is a little bit interesting to me, but all it is really saying is that God knows everything and works everything out before it comes to pass. He isn’t bound by time like we are. It doesn’t mean that Jeremiah existed before he was in his mother’s womb.

    CD is unavailable for a few days, but I’d like to answer the question you asked him. We all deserve hell. I deserve hell. We’ve broken God’s law by lying, stealing, lusting, disobeying our parents, etc. Misinterpreting the Bible is only one in a long list of people’s sin. Just like any guilty criminal, we deserve to be punished. Since we’ve sinned against an infinitely holy God, our penalty is infinite. The Bible says the only payment that God accepts for sin is blood (Leviticus 17:11, Hebrews 9:22). Jesus’ blood must be of infinite value in order to pay for anyone’s sin. (That’s why He must be God.)

    There is nothing we can do to earn the gift of having Jesus pay for our sins. What do you have to offer Jesus in exchange for that? The answer really is nothing. In fact, if you think that your love or seeking of a relationship with Him is something that will earn His favor, it becomes offensive. If you bought a friend a BMW, and you told them it’s a gift, then they insisted on giving you a $5 bill, wouldn’t you be offended? If you accepted the $5, the BMW is no longer a gift. They purchased the BMW.

    All you can do is ask Him to save you. Don’t try to offer Him anything in return. Approach Him as a sinner who deserves hell, and ask for His mercy.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  76. mbaker says:

    AJ,

    Just to comment on your last question,

    “So how accurate does a person have to be to not have sinned against God when interpretting the bible?”

    I think that if it is done deliberately by making the words of the teachers or prophets into replacement theology, such as I believe Joseph Smith did, and the LDs church and branches of the fringe charismatic movement are doing, then I believe it would fall under sin in God’s eyes.

    For someone to occasionally mistake a verse to mean something else, out of ignorance, is a whole different ball game.

    While our sins are forgiven by virtue of Christ becoming the perfect Lamb of sacrifice, (something no one among us could ever do), we are warned repeatedly in the Bible that discerning and disciplining these false teachers in the church is an on-going responsibility God has given to all who carry His name. That is so the real truth is preserved.

    I can understand where you are in a certain sense, because for years I bought the line of some in the charismatic fringe, who had convinced me God was doing a new thing, and I wanted to be a part of that. However, I am thankful to many of my friends who did point out the false prophecies and the aberrant teachings. It made me angry at first, but 7 years later I thank God that there were people who took His word more seriously than the self appointed prophets I followed – who were always trying to embellish or to change it to suit themselves.

    That’s why I blog, out of gratefulness to God for sending folks into my life who were unafraid to stand up for God’s unchangeable truth. Please, for your own good, listen to correction about some of these LDS beliefs. That is God speaking into your life through folks like those on this website. I shall pray He give you real discernment in these matters.

    God bless.

  77. A.J.,

    If I understand your questions in regards to the original 12, I assume that you are speaking of the original 12 disciples (also called the 12 apostles). Mark (also known as John Mark) and Luke (a gentile physician) were not part of the original 12. In fact, the Word of God does not count either John Mark or Luke (both writers of one of the four gospels) as an apostle.

    There were only 12 originally which obviously included the traitor Judas Iscariot. The eleven who were left (as seen in Acts 1) chose Mathias to replace the office held by Judas Iscariot. Later, there was one further apostle, Paul (also named Saul – one was his Hebrew name and the other his Greek) who was considered to be the apostle to the Gentiles. The Scriptures are clear that to be a Biblical apostle one had to be a witness to the resurrected Christ. Apostles are not an office that is in existence today.

    As for being a disciple, the word mathetes simply means a learner or a pupil. ALL true believers of the Lord Jesus Christ who have placed their faith in Him alone for their salvation and have confessed and repented of their sins are called to be a disciple. We are to called to follow the Master and to be more like Him today than we were yesterday and more like Him tomorrow than we are today.

    The Desert Pastor

  78. A J HILL says:

    To the masses what is a spirit? Again I have expressed in detail what I say a spirit is so what do you say.

    A J

  79. Keith C. says:

    How can the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost be the same person when Jesus prayed to the Father.
    Like in John 17:11, 21-23
    11. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

    21. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
    22. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
    23. I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

    If the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are same person then are we suppose to become part of him or just one in purpose?

    Spirit is a form of matter. In a state that are eyes can’t see. To those who have a reasonable understanding of physics particularly the electromagnetic spectrum know most forms of light (also called radiation) we are not capable of seeing.
    Those ghost use a tool that detects electromagnetism in order to determine where the spirits are.

  80. Keith,

    Your question is one we get frequently. It happens when people have a misconception of the orthodox view of the Trinity. We do not believe that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same PERSON. We believe they are the three Persons of ONE GOD. Contrary to what you may have read other places, Jesus was not “praying to Himself,” but to the Father.

    Think of it this way: Christians are all separate PERSONS, but we are ONE Church. We are all one body (Ephesians 4:11), with separate and distinct MEMBERS (1st Corinthians 12:14-27).

    Likewise, even within each one of us there is division between flesh and spirit (Matthew 26:41; Colossians 2:5); between flesh and soul (Psalm 84:2) and between soul and spirit (Hebrews 4:12). My flesh is me; my soul is me; my spirit is me. I am one human being, made up of these three separate components–much like God is one God made up of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

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