Defending. Contending.

In the first video at 3:45 the instructor attempts to address Romans 3:23 and how Mary could be sinless:

Can a baby sin? No. Can a severely, mentally retarded person sin? No.

Uh…so what’s the point? We know Mary didn’t die as a baby. So is his position that Mary was “severely, mentally retarded”? There’s one I haven’t heard before.

doreen,

Mary’s mother’s name is actually a matter of extra-Biblical church tradition. My emphasis wasn’t on her name because regardless of her actual name Rome’s falsely implied sinlessness remains, all the way back to Eve.

Hope this helps.

In Christ,
CD

Well, in all fairness, the “defender” of the Faith in this case is a layperson not a theologian, and not sufficiently well informed concerning his own religion. Actually, it’s in the place where he departs from Catholic teaching (in saying that “Mary died”) that he leads himself into the swamp and can no longer reconcile one part of what he’s saying with the rest. (His questioners are correct in seeing the contradiction between sinlessness and death.) But actual Catholic teaching does *not* say that Mary died. The dogma of the Assumption says: “Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.”

Incidentally, the The Immaculate Conception (not to be confused with the Assumption) was defended in the 13th Century by Blessed John Duns Scotus, so it is certainly not new. What’s “new” is declaring it to be a dogma (1854).

God Bless,
Rich

dmh724 says…
“There is however, plenty of historical evidence to suggest that most people believed she was assumed into Heaven”

Is there biblical evidence? Where in God’s word does it say she was assumed into heaven the way Elijah was? The bible speaks of Elijah’s being carried off into heaven in a whirlwind {2Kings 2:1, 11}, but there’s nothing on Mary being carried off in such a way. If this is the case, why is God’s word silent on this issue? Surely it would have been noteworthy if the maidservant chosen by God to deliver the Christ child were carried off in such a way; one would think God would have included such a matter in His word. Yet, we find of no such incident.

I don’t find this surprising. When I last debated Roman Catholic apologists I found a great deal of the writings of the early church fathers directly contradicted scripture on the roles of priests in the old testament and there was a general ignorance of this.

Protestants may abuse scripture but at least they know what it says.

The Pilgrim –

Great post except I loved the line “Additionally, if Mary was sinless, then there was absolutely no reason for her to bring a sacrifice to the temple in Luke 2:24. The grounds for this is laid out in Leviticus 5:11 and 12:8. And why in the world (if Mary had committed no sin) would she acknowledge God as her Savior? Sinless people do not need a savior?

There is one line I would disagree with. This devotion and near-deification of Mary is something you cannot find anywhere in the early Church. That’s just not true, you can certainly argue it is not scriptural and I think you did a great job on that but I’d want to caution you on the later point. There is pretty good evidence that the Marys: Mary Mother of God, Mary of Magdala and Mary the prostitute, Mary of Bethany…. go back to will into the 1st and frankly I think even earlier into proto-Christianity. I’d stay away from the historical argument the evidence is more mixed.

OK seems like we agree on that last point.

And I wasn’t justifying with history just saying that early history is more diverse than Acts. Today I was just reading a reconstruction / translation of The Great Deceleration of Simon Magus, very likely 1st century Christianity but very far away from scriptural.

Lisa – I also recommend http://www.bereanbeacon.org for some good information and articles about Catholicism from a former Dominican priest.

As far as your defense of oral tradition, I recommend you study the history of the religion you now have embraced. In so doing you will find how a departure from God’s word alone (i.e. Sola Scriptura) led the Roman religion into the most abominable and blasphemous doctrines where even killing true followers of Jesus was viewed as doing God’s service (see John 16:2).

This being the same thing that happened with the Pharisees when they departed from God’s word and built their religion on the oral traditions of men. It so blinded them that they could not see the Lord of Glory and killed him and his followers.

In answer to your rhetorical question, most assuredly children sin. All one has to do is spend a few minutes with them to see the rotten fruit they bear from their Adamic nature.

Joanna,

Hello I enjoyed reading your post.

Without spending hours refuting the heresy that is rome, I would just like to state that in no way shape or form is the Roman Catholic Church part of the bride of Christ in any way shape or form.

Everything from the false gospel to the error taught about ‘pergutory’ and ‘penance’ to the rank inter-faith beliefs that abound in the RCC. Just a few small reasons why the RCC is in serious error. visit http://www.carm.org and click on the the information on Roman Catholic’s.

Just look at exactly why Luther wrote all he did and you are sure to find and see the difference between Christianity and the Roman Catholic Church.

Perhaps begin with the gospel, the apocrypha and transubstantiation……….

May the LORD open the eyes of you heart to see the heresy that is called the Roman Catholic Church.

Soli Deo Gloria

Just one question before I discuss each of the topics that were brought up-
How do you know which books of the Bible belong in Scripture and which do not?

Joanna~ You come here flaunting your ‘wisdom’ taught by men and want to engage in debate, however, your desire to ‘debate’ is a waste of time. No one is interested in your propaganda. You cannot prove your views from scripture, which is what the true believer adheres to. Your insistence on exalting your cultic religion will fall upon deaf ears. You do not realize that there are only two kinds of people, not prots and catholics, but saved and lost. You cleave to teachings of men, believing traditions handed down by mortal men. Your ‘wisdom’ is not of God. The Spirit of God is the teacher of the people of God, not teachings of men handed down from generation to generation. Your desire to re-hash old worn out issues is not worth anyone’s time. All of your ‘views’ have been argued for generations; you may believe everything taught by the RCC. BUT, those whom Christ saves will follow Him, ‘My sheep hear my voice, I know them and they follow me’. All whom God saves will follow Christ alone, not Christ plus tradition plus church doctrine plus Mary plus anything; we simply follow the Great Shepherd.

May I suggest you read DefCon’s rules of engagement? This site is dedicated to exalting God, edifying true believers, and glorifying Christ, as well as exposing error.

If you wish to debate, it must be done from scripture; otherwise, your views are simply the teachings and opinions of mortal men.

Joanna~ I could post all kinds of links disproving your claim that the RCC ‘gave’ us the bible. but you would not read them anymore than I would read your links. Ultimately, credit for God’s word goes solely to Him, and Him alone. To try and steal God’s thunder is both shameful and sinful; it’s just another way for the apostate RCC to try and exalt ‘self’ as the one true church.
I do pray God will be gracious to you and reveal truth to you through His Spirit. Only God can open up the mind to receive His truth. My anger is not so much directed at you as it is the false teachings you spew out here. But, I must remember, once upon a time I was just as lost as you are.
May Almighty God save you from the apostate teachings you know cleave to, may He reveal your true spiritual condition to you and grant you the new birth, saving you from what you, and all of us deserve…eternal torment.

Trying for forth time as my post keeps getting bounced. If I have violated any rules, please advise.

In reading Joanna’s comments and perusing the fodder titled, “Sola Scriptura – A Blueprint for Anarchy”, I must digress and say how thankful I am that I was raised in the religion of Rome. Raised by a multi-generational Catholic family from a babe on upwards to nearly 25 years of age. Here, I consider myself most blessed to have sat under the feet of nuns and priests being educated by them from grammar school through high school, to have served as a faithful alter boy, to have been baptized, catechized, confirmed and even married as a RC. I am thankful that I was deemed a faithful follower of Mother Rome and was looked upon highly by large and small in her community.

I am thankful that I had my Marian statue and faithfully prayed many a night my decades on the rosaries. My homemade cross (from my 1st “holy” communion) I hung with pride in my bedroom where every Palm Sunday I would take the new palm branches and drape them over it for another year.

So too am I thankful that I use to look down with disdain on those “born again” Jesus wackos (the way I sadly felt at the time) since I “knew” that ONLY Catholics were going to heaven. And of course for no other reason but that we were faithful, card-carrying Catholics. This party line I parroted like a well trained student of my Jesuit and Franciscan pedagogues.

Why am I so thankful? I am thankful because I KNOW the truth about mother Rome. I know the truth whereby the outrageous claims made by RC apologists, the lies, distortions and incredible falsehoods are laid bare before my eyes. 33,000 or 330,000 denominations doesn’t really matter as it is pure straw-man blather. The so-called unity of Mother Rome is a smoke screen; it is like an old Hollywood western movie set where once you walk into the apparent salon or hotel, you realize all you have is a thin facade with nothing behind it but empty space. This is Rome’s unity, a paper thin facade.

Here, I challenge anyone to take a poll of their local RC parish, a poll not in paper alone but by looking at life choices and you will find discord and disharmony that will begin to show the heart of the RC religion. People divided about sex before marriage (and most partaking), divided about birth control, divided about woman being priests, divided about divorce/remarriage/annulments, divided about priests marrying, divided about girls being alter boys eh I mean alter people, divided about homosexuality, divided about the liturgy, divided about Vatican II, divided about purgatory, divided about people of other “faiths” going to heaven, divided about evolution, divided about Mary, divided about the current pope, divided about abortionists (e.g. Nancy Pelosi and others) receiving the holy wafer, divided about tithing, divided about praise and worship, divided about fund raising, divided about …. fill in the blanks.

Oh – but we have unity because all these people for one hour (hopefully less as a priest is always commended if he can get you out in less than an hour) who gather in a building and like trained puppets on cue sit down, stand up, cross themselves, kneel, recite words back and forth, shake hands, walk an aisle, sing a song, and walk back out the door being elated the ordeal is over for another week.

I am also thankful that I know the heart of those cute Catholic boys and girls who look so prim and proper in their uniforms where it is hard to think they could do anything wrong. Oh what a lie! Thankful because I was there where the sin that me and my faithful heaven bound (eh – well probably purgatory bound first) Catholic friends partook in was no different than that of our agnostic/atheist cohorts; possibly even worse in many respects. Mocking the nuns, swilling beer like it was water, drugs (even on our HS bus), stealing, cheating, sex, mouths like sailors and more bore ample witness to the fact that we were dead in trespasses and sins regardless of the lies the priests fed us with.

Oh- wait, but we were Catholics and on our way to heaven because we said our five “our father’s” and ten “hail mary’s” so as merit our forgiveness after our 5 minute penance. Lies damnable lies!!!

I could go on and on how I witness the same today being surrounded by DEAD Catholic families and friends who HATE the gospel and Lord of Glory and LOVE their sin. And what incenses me the most is that in Rome Jesus Christ is NEVER enough for it is the organization, the 501c-3 den of iniquity that is always preached as the way of salvation. This is the heart of every RC apologist for if they preach Jesus alone the gig will be up and the power over men’s souls will be vanquished. And so it will be…

“And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication”

I was going to explain how the canonical books were chosen for inclusion in the Bible by the Council of Laodicea (363 AD) and the Council of Hippo (393), the same canon being affirmed by the Council of Carthage (A.D. 397) , but fourpointer already beat me to it. :)

The Petrine Theory (the idea that Christ made Peter the head of the visible church and establishment of the papacy) did not even begin until the fifth century – beginning with Leo I. This dogma permitted the ideas of the supremacy of the Church of Rome and of bishops to merge. The result was an unholy mix of political ambition and religious tradition – the beginnings of the corrupt institution of the Romanist church.

I was a practicing Catholic for 19 years – I’m still stunned by the revisionist version of history we were taught in school and catechism!

Lisa, your statement about infants and the handicapped not being (born) sinners is false, and is NOT a doctrine taught by the catholic church. Actually, the name of that particular heresy is Pelagianism, the denial of original sin. However, it is true that there are different levels of accountability, and a mentally handicapped adult would not be held to the same standard of understanding or behavior as you or I. But that does not change the fact that he/she is still a sinner (as was Mary – the Gospel of Luke affirms that she was, in fact, a sinner). Infants are born in sin (Psalm 51:5; Proverbs 22:15). That does not mean they have committed personal sin; it means they have inherited the curse of death and sin nature from Adam. This is actually something Catholics and Protestants agree on.

You say you “feel fulfilled” by your recent decision to convert to the Roman church, but from reading your post it appears you do not have much doctrinal knowledge or have received much teaching. I would offer that faith must be based on fact, not on feelings; and the Word of God is indeed the source of Truth. Emotional decisions rarely lead us into biblical Truth (I include myself as one who erred in this area; I pursued the error of the charismatic movement for several years before realizing it was not of God).

The “33,000 Protestant denominations” is an urban legend catholics use to try and disprove Reformed and Evangelical teaching. The actual number is a small fraction of that, but that doesn’t stop that convenient (yet silly) statistic from being pulled out in debate when one side runs out of anything fruitful to contribute to the conversation. Neil Simpson of 4Simpsons blog has a link to data disproving the figure – if I can find it, I’ll post it for the benefit of any misinformed romanists reading. :)

As far as the marian doctrines go, hopefully we all agree these theories about the mother of Jesus were developed very late in Church history – some began during the Middle Ages as the “cult of the virgin” grew in popularity (around the time of John Wycliffe); and others still later (the Assumption became official church doctrine in 1950). Here’s a small timeline (as you can see, NONE of these titles were even close to being Apostolic Age):

1. Mary is called the Mother of God. AD 431
2. Prayers offered to Mary AD 600
3. Immaculate Conception AD 1854
4. Assumption of Mary AD 1950
5. Mary Proclaimed Mother of the Church AD 1965

These doctrines are very easy to disprove biblically, and one of the first “holes” I saw in Catholicism after becoming a Christian and beginning to read the Bible (I was initially very surprised to learn that neither the Assumption nor the Immaculate Conception had so much as a shred of Scriptural support).

Doctrine of “Perpetual Virginity” of Mary

The Bible does not come out and declare that Mary remained a virgin and that she had no children. In fact, the Bible seems to state otherwise: (All quotes are from the NASB.)

Matthew 1:24-25 – “And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.”

Matthew 12:46-47 – “While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”

Matthew 13:55 – “Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”

Mark 6:2-3 – “And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”

John 2:12 – “After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days.”

Acts 1:14 – “These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.”

1 Cor. 9:4-5 – “Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?”

Gal. 1:19 – But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lords brother.”

(Will continue in another post; this one is already too long…)

Really, when were lay people not allowed to have Bibles Marie?

Before ANYONE can receive God’s truth from His word via His Spirit, they MUST be born again. Salvation is God’s gift, given by His grace. Faith to receive Christ is God’s gift, given to all who He calls and saves. Repentance is God’s gift, given to the lost sinner dead in sin {Eph. 2:1}; causing him/her to see their true spiritual condition and being broken over it. Salvation is of the Lord….period. There is not ONE thing anyone can do to bring themselves to Jesus. Undergoing water baptism does not save, partaking in communion does not save. Think about it, when you receive a gift, did you do anything to merit that gift? Why would anybody think they could do anything to merit salvation? ‘For by G-R-A-C-E are ye saved, through faith, and that NOT of yourselves, it is the G-I-F-T of God; NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should BOAST’ Ephesians 2:8,9 The grace of God is what saves a lost sinner and draws them to Christ, nothing else, simply grace.
There is absolutely nothing we could do that would cause God to look upon us and say, ‘ I think I’ll save so and so, look how hard he/she is working. He/she deserves to be saved, for he/she has met all the requirements!’. Until the Spirit of God brings the lost sinner to repentance, breaking them over their horrific crimes against a Holy God, salvation is not possible. There MUST be an inward change, and not one that consists of ‘boasting’ of church tradition’. Humility is key factor in a regenerate heart. The broken and contrite heart cries out, ‘O God!! Have mercy on me, a sinner!’. There is a gut wrenching plea for forgiveness that stems from a heart which now sees how horrible its atrocities against Almighty God are. Too many are like the Pharisee, and INSIST on exalting ‘self’, or the ‘teachings of men’. Do you believe what you believe because God’s Holy Spirit has revealed truth to you through Sacred Scripture, or because it has been ‘handed down’ by mortal men?

Until God does a work in your heart, all the ‘head knowledge’ in the world is absolutely useless. There are many to whom this passage applies, ‘ Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.’ 2 Timothy 3:5
To be ‘religious’ is to be lost in sin. To cleave to the teachings of men is to be lost in sin. Unless the Spirit of God is your teacher, your knowledge is vain and merely the teachings of men.

Hi four pointer, Thanks for your reply.

You said: “that is exactly what Rome would have us believe about the Magisterium. That they do not interject their own personal opinions into their “infallible” interpretations of Scripture–while at the same time declaring us Protestants “anathema” for daring to interpret the Scriptures without their permission.”

Look dear, it’s true that the Church does NOT want us to interpret the scriptures without Her permission. But why:

- The Roman Catholic Church is NOT Rome and the pope, this is NOT what we call The Roman Catholic Church. (The Roman Catholic Church = all of us catholics+the fathers of the Church+the saints+the popes+clergy+the apostles+early church). I know that from your perspective you don’t see it like that. But from my perspective, this IS the Church. It’s the community of faithfuls who witnessed Jesus (the apostles) and then preserved his teachings for us: the Bible (early Church) and then interpreted the Bible (fathers, saints, theologians, us, …) and so on …

- Did you know that as Catholics, we can always disagree with the Church? did u know that?
But when we do, we are asked to contribute with what we thought and debate and if we prove our point, we can change the position of the Church about some things. (Example: One of my friends is a gay theologian and he is doing that debate now with Rome to reconsider her position about homosexuality and the Church is cooperating) but in case the debate leads to a disagreement, he is asked to obey the Church, and I say the CHURCH not the POPE. because the Church is all of us, since Jesus till today.

The Church blames Martin Luther not because he dared to interpret the Bible by himself but because he didn’t add his intellectual work to the Church and discuss and debate. He was not willing to change it. He wanted to skip Her authority, and again let me remind you, I’m not talking about an authority of a man (pope) or a government (Vatican), I’m talking about a community that has her roots in the apostles and extends till our time. But he went to make his own church, a church based on his own interpretations only.

You may say, oh what an innocent girl is Marina! Rome is corrupted, many popes came and history showed they were corrupted.. That’s right. They were. But the Church is not them, this is why the Church is not corrupted and will never be. Cause God the almighty is able to protect His Church from any evil even this that can come from Her administration.

- You said: “… let him be anathema”
And my answer is: “If your brother sins against you,[a] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[b] 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.”

Peace :)

“I promise and God is my witness that, everything that I wrote is, to my knowledge, the Truth and I’m using it for the pure purpose of announcing the Truth and not for competition” Marina

Marina wrote:

“The Church blames Martin Luther not because he dared to interpret the Bible by himself but because he didn’t add his intellectual work to the Church and discuss and debate. He was not willing to change it. He wanted to skip Her authority, and again let me remind you, I’m not talking about an authority of a man (pope) or a government (Vatican), I’m talking about a community that has her roots in the apostles and extends till our time. But he went to make his own church, a church based on his own interpretations only.”

With all due respect, Marina, that is an absolute falsehood. Completely untrue, from both a secular historical view AND that of the Church.

Luther, in fact, had NO intention of seceding from Rome and repeatedly said as much, before and after the Diet of Worms. From the very beginning, he worked to reform the RCC from within; the main problem (for him) being the corrupt sale of “indulgences”. It was the VATICAN, not Luther, who refused to cooperate. How much have you actually studied about Reformation history, before I go any further? Never did Luther attempt to start his own church, or any institution based on the wisdom of man – he attempted to engage the existing church leaders of the time in Scripturally-based dialogue. What was the response? The Vatican tried to coerce him to recant.

By no means was Luther giving the Scripture his private interpretation. He translated the Bible into German (a crime at the time which Rome attempted to prevent, although his Geneva Bible remains well-respected as a thoroughly accurate translation).

I understand your passion and wish to defend the Vatican at all costs, but please at least get your historical facts right.

As far as the pope goes, when he speaks “ex cathedra” it is considered infallible. Interesting, given the large amont of Romanist dogma declared into being that contradicts Scripture. One of the titles ascribed to the papacy is “The Vicar of Christ” – quite literally, he is held as being Christ’s representative on earth. (Remember, I was a Catholic for half my life and studied Catholic belief exhaustively from the inside). Holding a fallible human as the earthly representative of Christ and “Head of the Church” (a title the Bible ascribes to Jesus Christ, btw) is not only the height of presumption, it is blasphemy.

The historical record bears this out as well, from the ascent of Leo I, the greed and ineptitude of the four Crusades, the evil of the Inquisition, countless intrigues and murders, and the many illegitimate children sired by popes down through the centuries.

As the great theologian John Wesley once stated, “When Scripture and tradition contradict each other, one muust always side with Scripture.”

Joanna –

I don’t know anyway who has expressed personal hatred Benedict XVI. You want a Pope I have no problem hating Innocent III who was a mass murder and set in motion a reign of terror that lasted centuries.

Going back to the late Roman empire you had popes that destroyed what remained of human knowledge. While humanity was slipping into a pit of ignorance they destroyed the ladder we could have used to climb out. Someone like Pope Siricius could be blamed harshly for encouraging this fall.

But on the other hand the Catholic serious structural deficiencies and complaints at all levels like:
– lack of vocations
– many priests that would like to revisit the marriage issue
– the unbiblical and untraditional attack on the authority of nuns and female deacons
– positions taken in Humanae Vitae and their widespread rejection by the faithful.

No Benedict the XVI is not an exceptionally wicked man. He is however an authoritarian and not particularly visionary at a time when the church desperately needs vision. He’s very smart, but Leo X had excellent taste in art and architecture as well.

Marina W –

This was my point on the last post. you see the Catholic Church just physically. But you are only seeing the tip of the iceberg. The Church is that ideal, it’s a utopia.

This is one of the Catholic doctrines that drive me up a wall. When Protestants talk about the invisible church and spiritual body of Jesus…. Catholics legitimately get to play the gnosticism card. No they argue, the church is material, the membership is the baptized faithful it is a real church not some abstract entity as per OK fair enough.

But then if you get to play the card.
The church of Jesus Christ, sold offices
The church of Jesus Christ, was running brothels
The church of Jesus Christ was involved in genocide
The church of Jesus Christ ran scams involving fake artifacts.
The church of Jesus Christ sold off indulgences
The church of Jesus Christ mistranslated the bible
etc, etc….

If it is a real physical church then the holy catholic church did all the good stuff and all the bad stuff. You don’t get to have it both ways. Either you can have a Protestant Invisible church which is loosely connected to the material church and perfect, or a physical church which has engaged in institutional sin.

fourpointer –

Or do you believe as Benedict XVI, that I am outside the “true church” and, therefore, “anathema”?

I’m not sure if Marina is going know the answer to this. I hate to have to now defend the Catholic side but I am the church discipline guy. (What follows is all according to Canon law).
The formula “let him be anathema” is considered to be a statement of excommunication not a statement of anathematization (I know that sounds odd). You cannot be implicitly anathematized it has to be explicit. Voluntarily leaving the church is excommunicating yourself, you agree you aren’t in communion with the Catholic church.

Those curses would apply to someone who was in the church but held those beliefs. For example if you wished to remain catholic yet deny the real presence you would be self excommunicating, your priest may be unaware of your status but you would still have it. So you would be stealing the host.

None of that applies to you since you agree with the church you are out.

It helps to understand how this false doctrine came about:

The RC heirarchy (pope) declared it to be true because a/. ‘it is fitting’ and b/. ‘because it was generally held to be true by RC’s’.

It came into existence therefore, simply because people wanted it to, not because it had any sound reason for doing so, even in Roman Theology. As ever, their theology follows their practice – that is, they develop theology to justify the position they have taken. That can never work.

(as an ex-Roman Priest I do know what I am talking about – I spent too long being taught this stuff…)

fourpointer –

By extension, however, he is in fact declaring me to be a heretic and is, in a way, condemning me to Hell.

Lets get a bit more specific (again all according to the RCC, I’m not asserting any of these things as being true in an absolute sense). A statement is heretical if it is a denial of a religious truth. A person who makes heretical statements is not necessarily a heretic, they have to meet additional criteria.

From their perspective because you have been raised Protestant you might be believing you assenting to all of Christ’s truths even when you are in fact denying them.

Now in your particular case, I do think you do show enough depth of understanding that some of your heresies would rise to the level making you a heretic but I’m not sure Benedict himself, nor the church is making that assertion.

So they would assert (I think) that you are likely damned but there hasn’t been a finding one way or another. They wouldn’t declare you to be.

according to Benedict’s belief, “excommunication” from the RCC, means being put out of “the one true church” since he does not believe Protestants to be in the body of Christ.

As for Protestants not in the body of Christ. That’s just false. Protestant baptize, so they are in the body of Christ. The church is quite specific that a schismatic may be an “extraordinary minister of baptism”, that is when they administer the rite it is both valid and licit. In fact it is a sin for a priest to treat a Protestant like an unbaptized person and not distinguish. It would be a very a very grave sin for them to re-baptize you.

So from their perspective you are a full member of the body of Christ, who has from his baptism fed on a diet of heresy and is a member of a schismatic church. Excommunicated, that is not in communion with the Catholic church, certainly. Damned (Anathematized) no. Remember being in communion requires “in full agreement, without exception, with all the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church” which is something I don’t think you even claim to be.

I guess the word “anathema” wasn’t the best word to use, considering Rome’s misuse of it. But I was using it in the biblical sense, instead of the Romish sense.

You are both using it in the same sense, as a proxy for excommunication. I wrote a post on excommunication vs. anathema 2 years ago.

CD-Host – What official Catholic doctrine are you quoting that states that so called schismatics, per Rome, are part of the body of Christ? I read nothing of this but rather see the Cathechism brashly declaring that “Outside the Church [Roman religious system] there is no salvation.” More specifically:

“Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.” [846 RC Catechism]

No explanation is needed for the words are clear. And I’m sure the brethren who are associated with DefendingContending including fourpointer do not reject the Catholic religion out of ignorance (see Para 847) but with a sound mind and solid conviction.

Likewise, maybe I am not clear on your post, but are you saying the anathemas of Rome are no longer on the books? I trow not for any true Protestant (one truly protesting Rome) is under a host of anathemas. Just one example of the many from Trent reads:

“CANON IV. If any one shall affirm, that man’s freewill, moved and excited by God, does not, by consenting, cooperate with God, the mover and exciter, so as to prepare and dispose itself for the attainment of justification; if moreover, anyone shall say, that the human will cannot refuse complying, if it pleases, but that it is inactive, and merely passive; let such an one be accursed”!

And even though times ostensibly have changed with the ecumenical spirit of the day, this is merely a facade for Rome to gather up as many “schismatics” into mother Rome under the supremacy of papa pope. Yet for all those who stand for Christ alone, through faith alone, by grace alone and protest mother Rome, the hatred has not lessened from the days gone by when the fagots were gathered and the fires kindled to purge the empire of the damnable protesting heretics.

Brother Michael –

What official Catholic doctrine are you quoting that states that so called schismatics, per Rome, are part of the body of Christ? I read nothing of this but rather see the Cathechism brashly declaring that “Outside the Church [Roman religious system] there is no salvation.”

15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.(LUMEN GENTIUM #15)

By being baptized you are part of the church. You are a schismatic but you baptized into the Catholic church. The church only recognizes one baptism and you got it.

Being a Catholic in good standing assures salvation only anathematization precludes. You are not anathematized you have excommunicated yourself.

There have been protestants specifically decleared to have been saved, Adelaide McAlpin Pyle (protestant) and Julius Fine (Jewish) are examples both declared by Saint Padro Pio. Since he is a saint ….

I can keep going. In general think about Paul’s comments like “fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of God”. That does not mean if you fornicated there is no point in being a Christian anymore, game over you lose. To read it that way would be to read it outside the context of crucifixion for the remission of sins.

CD-Host – I am not going to steal this thread as you can PM me to discuss, but I am not part of the RC institution. What I quoted was the official Catholic Catholicism from the Vatican. Maybe you did not read this? “Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.” Para 846.

I know the Catholic religion, was raised in it and I refuse to enter in it as I reject it as anti-Christ. And yes, per Trent I and countless others are anathematized; let’s not play word games as the teaching of Trent and their meaning (not your revision) is clear.

Just as an aside, were the Romanists at peace with and consider brethren Jan Hus, Tyndale, Wycliff, Calvin, the Christians of the Piedmonts, the Hugenots, Michael de Molinos, et al?

Finally, there is not nor will there be any peace between me and Rome’s anti-Biblical religion for my Lord came not to bring peace but a sword. For Rome is drunken with the blood of the saints and sits as a queen and says she will see no sorrow; but sorrow she will see and double she will be given for what she has given the saints. And for the books, saints are Spirit-filled believers and not the supposedly ultra pious declared so by a committee. Those mother Rome then uses to bilk the deceived and often dirt poor peasants of countless sums of money through pictures, statues, special masses, medallions, etc. to gain more mammon to feed her rapacious appetite for queenly living.

CD-Host,
I know that the Papacy preaches that the Catholic religion is necessary for salvation; that Jesus Christ is not enough. I know that Rome preaches she is the door whereby even anti-Christ Muslims are part of the family of God. Yet never will I know that the Catholic religion was founded by God for it was not.

Likewise I full well understand the doctrine of your religion and categorically reject it lock, stock and barrel. The papacy, the desecration of Mary turning her into the Babylonian Queen of heaven, transubstantion, baptismal regeneration, the priesthood, nuns, penance, the Mass, etc., etc., etc.

You may believe that Rome has me and others like me under her wings with her modern ecumenical umbrella theology, but I can assure you this is not so. Neither in truth nor in what she believes at heart per her fruit. This is why I mentioned just a snippet of those who Rome without mercy hounded, persecuted and for many slaughtered. You are saying schismatics are part of the family of God and Mother Rome but the history of your religion tells another story. All because they would not bend knee to papa pope and instead looked to Lord Jesus.

I hope and pray the Lord God grant you grace to see his true Church and to come to believe on Jesus Christ alone for your salvation and to come out of Rome lest your partake of her sins.

The Pilgrim -

“Since Jesus was the perfect, spotless Lamb of God, who knew no sin, we know that He must have honored and loved His mother.

It’s rather quite simple.

Now, regarding the rest of your comment, I am at a loss as I am not sure what you were trying to say and what any of it had to do with this post regarding Mary’s supposed immaculate conception”.

End of quote

Thank you for saying that Jesus Christ would love and honour His Mother, Mary, even though Jesus Christ himself never ever said this in all of Scripture!

Now then, you also say that it is rather quite simple that Mary’s supposed Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with the fact that Jesus Christ would honour His Mother, Mary.

How else is it not possible for Jesus Christ to do this?

Is it because, it is not a “good thing”?

Is it because it is not a “great thing” for Jesus Christ to honour His Mother, Mary in this way?

Is it because it is really impossible, but how can that be when Jesus Christ is God?

Or, is it really impossible because the Bible does not say that He did? And if this is true then how do you imprison Jesus Christ, True God and True Man, in the confines of your Bible pages?

What I am trying to say is indeed simple – that the mind of man cannot think up and pinpoint how much, how good, and how great are the things that Jesus Christ can/will do to honour His own Mother, Mary.

One of these “good and great things” that may be granted by the mind of man is the ‘Immaulate Conception”, and surely even Catholics of all times will not outdo the honours that Jesus Christ will bestow.

I have accepted your opinion/s as expressed in “its all about Mary” as your entitlement as I accept John Martignoni’s in his most recent newsletter of the Bible Christian Society.

Finally, one of my six children left the Church to become an Evangelical Christian and immediately he said nearly all the things you have said about Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ. Ironically, he said that he left the Church so that he could reallyy love the Lord, Jesus Christ, but as for Mary, the Mother of the same Jesus Christ, she was a merely “vessel”.

Then, soon afterwards our only daughter followed her brother and not astonishingly while she affirms her love for Jesus Christ, Mary His Mother was only a “seed pod”!

Neither of them say that they have a “mother problem” and faced with their “mother Mary-complex”problem, I could only tell them that if they can love/honour their own mother, then why is it that they cannot allow their Lord Jesus Christ to love/honour His Own Mother, Mary? And their answer is “it is not in the Bible”

Really it is rather simple as you say, it is all about Mary, it
is all about love, and sadly I had to tell my son and daughter that as a gardener I know a lot about “seed pods” because many a seed- pod has no seed inside, simply there is no heart.

Sincerely, Nikola

Dear Fourpointer,

Presently, I am working out a reply to your May posting.

Also, I will check out your quotes from Scripture but quickly, though your-

“The RCC teaches that Jesus gave a throne to Mary”, correct?” is a great puzzle tto me.

I will need to check this out too as you offered no reference whatsoever!

You say that it is a “teaching”, so I will look at the catechism.

Do you by the way have a similar catechism of your Church? (I have asked my son and daughter for just such a document but none is forthcoming).

Now because Jesus Christ is “King”, we celebrate a feast day known as “Christ the King”, and because Jesus Christ is the son of Mary, then by virtue of this, Mary would be a “Queen”.

Is this a good thing?

Is this a great thing?

Is it possible that the Queenship of Mary could be one of the great things that God would grant to her as she had mentioned in her song of praise, the Magnificat?

Surely, a Queen may be seated on a chair or a throne on more formal occasions.

Pope Paul VI had commented that Mary, was the first and most perfect disciple of Jesus Christ.

I trust that you will be in agreement, so that we may allow Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ the honour of a seat or throne near her son, Jesus Christ the King.

Do you think that Jesus Christ, True God and True Man would honour His mother in this way as one of the great things mentioned in Mary’s song of praise?

Many thanks, Sincerely, Nik.

PS. I had asked both my children, why they had decided to leave the faith of our Fathers. Both say that they believe in the “Bible Only” so I have had to caution them that sounds like idolatary as it is a book only.

Perhaps we can put this aside for a while as I can become very confused.

Oh, but perhaps you can help me here – I went to their “baptism by immersion”, because they say that their Catholic Baptism was inadequate. and at the reception fellowship I asked, “when will you be remarried again”, as they were originally married in the Catholic Church. No answer is forthcoming after these many years.

Dear Tanya C,

Thank you for the exciting news. I will leave your questions to rest awhile as otherwise we will be going in too many directions.

But here is a quite impromtu reply!

You say that -

“The “great thing” the God did for Mary was grant her, a wretched sinner, the honor of carrying the savior of the world and for a moment in time being his earthly mother and the salvation that comes in his name”.

To this, Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ had already responded with “Behold, the handmaid of the Lord! Be done to me according to your word”

And the words of scripture says “he has done great things to me. Holy is His Name”!

You have now named, just one, of the great, good things that God would do for Mary.

Would you care to name a few more?

Please forgive me for having to say this, but “your moment in time” can only mean that you have not enjoyed the joys of motherhood. And the ecstasy of suffering!

Surely, you ought to know that normal child bearing involves 9 months of pregnancy. During this time Mary had to live sensibly so as not do anything silly that may cause her to abort the child Jesus. Mary already knew, all about this Saviour Child in her womb. And so I would have to be less than human to think that Mary was not “fearful” in all this time.

Also Mary would have to have an abundance of God’s grace to sustain her, to protect and preseve their wellbeing.

Is it impossible for God to do another great and good thing like bestowing an abundance of grace from His infinte treasury? Would this not make Mary, “full of grace”?

But let us fast forward to the time when Mary received the bad news – Herod will kill the Child!

How do you think the Mother of this new born Baby would react to this?

I am not a mother either, but I would think that Mary would make haste to wrap Jesus up in a small bundle and run into the desert in the middle of the night.

Lest you forget, Mary is full of grace which will empower her to “save” her Saviour, her son Jesus Christ!!

This is yet another good and great thing that God can do for Mary; it is a great honour that no one else in all of creation can undertake without an abundance of God’s grace. Jesus Christ, True Man excepted, of course.

During the Liturgy of the Word in this morning’s Mass, I heard, that nothing is impossible to God.

May I stop now with – Jesus stayed at home for some 30 years before He began His public ministry, and tradition says that Jesus met His Mother, Mary on His way to Calvary.

Finally Mary was at the foot of the Cross to the end when Mary then held the broken – up Body of her Saviour, her Son, as in the “pieta”. And that is why Pope Paul VI with great insight said – “Mary was the first and the most perfect disciple of Jesus Christ – refer post no.84.

Sincerely, Nik.

Nikola,

Also Mary would have to have an abundance of God’s grace to sustain her, to protect and preseve their wellbeing.

Is it impossible for God to do another great and good thing like bestowing an abundance of grace from His infinte treasury? Would this not make Mary, “full of grace”?

Did God include in His Plan to “sustain her, to protect and preseve their wellbeing” to have Mary give birth to Jesus in a barn stall as a ‘royal blessing’ to bestow?

I think you are misunderstanding the roles Jesus and Mary were living out in God’s Plan of Redemption.

Mary was blessed to be a vessel through whom the Son of God would be born.

Mary’s role is completed… God is God, His creation (Mary) is not God.

God called a man, Abram (a Chaldean), to be the father of a great people… His descendants would be God’s chosen people and number ‘as the stars.’

Abram’s (now “Abraham’s”) role is completed… God is God, His creation (Abraham) is not God.

God called a man, Isaac, the ‘Child of the Promise’, and was in many ways a foreshadow of Jesus Christ.

Isaac’s role is completed… God is God, His creation (Isaac) is not God.

God called a man, Jacob, to be the father of a great Nation… Israel itself! God’s chosen nation. They were to be a holy people through whom God would reveal Himself to the world. God would bless those who blessed Israel, and curse those who cursed Israel.

Jacob’s role is completed… God is God, His creation (Jacob) is not God.

David was one of the greatest kings in the Bible, and God called him ‘a man after [God's] own heart.” David (as inspired by the Holy Spirit) penned many of the Psalms.

David’s role is completed… God is God, His creation (David) is not God.

… and the list goes on. There are many people in Scripture who are specially chosen by God to fulfill an important, or even great, purpose.

Their ultimate purpose, however, is to accomplish God’s Plan and to glorify God.

Perhaps you should take a lesson from Job, Nikola.

Job was blessed by God beyond measure.

The Lord, in His infinite, perfect Wisdom permitted all that Job had to be set aside from Job.

While the Scripture is clear that Job did not sin during his discussions with his three “friends”, Job does at the end posit a respectful question to God.

The response from God is that God BLASTS Job for thinking to question God at ANY level about what He is doing.

It begins in Job 38:1-4,

1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:

2 “Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?

3 Dress for action like a man;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.

4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?”

And then… page after page… chapter after chapter in the Bible, God hammers Job concerning the fundamental difference between God and His creation.

In the end, after receiving an education about who he is and who God is, Job humbly repents:

1 Then Job answered the LORD and said:
2″I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
3 ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?
‘Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
4 ‘Hear, and I will speak;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.’
5 I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear,
but now my eye sees you;
6 therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes.”
(Job 42:1-6)

Learn this lesson, Nikola.

Mary is NOT on ANY par with God.

She was created, and God was NOT.

Where was Mary (or you… or I…) when God “laid the foundation of the earth?”

The answer is that we were NOWHERE!

Oh, please, Nikola,

We are merely responding to the implications of your assertions about Mary. Your church, the RCC, has elevated Mary to the point where she continues to receive biblical, parental honor from Jesus, even though she is no longer Christ’s mom anymore.

Please don’t be disingenuous towards us now that we have punctured your Marian arguments.

Re-read my post above.

Mary has completed her role.

She is finished.

That’s it.

Done.

She is not an intercessor on anyone’s behalf.

She can’t hear prayers – only God can. She ain’t God.

She is not a co-redeemer, as the RCC is considering.

As was pointed out earlier, she is not even on par with John the Baptizer!… This from our Savior, Lord Jesus Himself!

Your posts are notably devoid… barren… lacking… free from ANY Scripture to support your theology.

You can’t, because the RCC theology is false… heresy… damnable.

Nikola, turn away from the RCC and turn TO JESUS CHRIST.

He alone can save you still.

In Jesus Christ,
- Jeff H

Dear Jeff H,

Quote -

“Oh, please, Nikola,

We are merely responding to the implications of your assertions about Mary. Your church, the RCC, has elevated Mary to the point where she continues to receive biblical, parental honor from Jesus, even though she is no longer Christ’s mom anymore.

Please don’t be disingenuous towards us now that we have punctured your Marian arguments”.

End of quote.

Jeff H, in order that you may form your opinion – ”
We are merely responding to the implications of your assertions about Mary”, I would have had to have said/written something in my posts.

Whatever it is that I had said/written that has led you to believe that I had blasphemed – meaning that I believe that Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ is GREATER than the Holy Trinity.

Now, you are challenged to document my sin of “blasphemy” from what I had actually written, and you are running hither and dither.

It should be easy for you to “cut and paste” from what I had written to prove your accusations.

Oh please Jeff H, my “brothers in Christ, I need to to tell you that you have not interpreted what I have said in true Christian charity.

So please go back to all I have said in order to document what it is that I have said that makes you believe what you claim”.

“Be not afraid”, the words of Jesus Christ which were often repeated by Pope John-Paul II and I am very sure that you must know that the “Truth will set you free”.

Please every one, may we all pray, to the Spirit of Truth for the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, which will empower Jeff H to document his charge of blasphemy against me from what I had actually written and published here.

Sincerely, with my prayers, Nik A Morris
___________________________________________________________________

Dear Jimmie Jones,

Thank you!

quote –

if she could come back to earth long enough to speak to the pope. I am sure she would tell him, stop worshipping me, I too am only as you are the only difference is i am saved and you are not.-repent now.

End of quote.

From what I had written and published here- do you think that I “worship Mary the Mother of Jesus Christ”?

Also what makes you believe that the Pope worships Mary”?

Would you care to document why do think that the Pope worships Mary.
___________________________________________________________________

Dear Fourpointer,

Quote

God created the world in 6 DAYS, but in the 60 YEARS between the resurrection of Christ and the writing of Revelation He couldn’t squeeze in a word or two about Mary’s sinlessness.

End of quote

When Adam & Eve disobeyed God and became “friends with Satan”, God rebukes the Serpent and announces the redemption of mankind – “I will put enmity between you and the Woman, between her seed and your seed, and she shall crush thy head”.

As Eve had just committed sin at this point, so I must believe that the “woman” here cannot be the same Eve, simply because the Seed that could crush the head of the Serpent, can only be Jesus Christ, the son of Mary.

Now please take due notice of God’s declaration of fact/truth – I will put “enmity” between the Woman and You!

Remember too that God had decreed, “My Word shall not return to me empty, for it shall achieve the purpose for which it was spoken”.

And a fine example is the point you made above – God created the world in 6 DAYS.

God merely spoke the Word!

Again, the coming of Jesus Christ, the Word, is spoken of here in Genesis and in the traditional Angelus prayer of Catholics we say – “And the Word was made Flesh, and He dwelt among us”.

When Catholics pray the Angelus, traditionally in the morning, at noon, and in the evening, they fall on their knees when saying these words – “And the Word was made flesh”.

On Calvary, Jesus Christ declared the accomplishment of His Mission on earth – “it is finished”!

And only now, the Word may proceed to return to the Father as in “My Word will not return to me empty for He will achieve the purpose for which they were spoken”.

Now therefore, who is this “woman, that God will make, the “woman” that will give birth to the Seed who will crush Satan?

But alas, right now, I feel so crushed that The Pilgrim is so right, that “it is all about Mary”.

Yes indeed, when it is all about Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ, as “the Pilgrim” has proclaimed, then of necessity, ”it is all about love”!

Sincerely, Nik.

PS. From the Cana marriage scene, Jesus addresses His Mother thus – “Woman”!

From the Cross, Jesus directly names His Mother, again as “Woman”!
From St. Paul, he spoke of Jesus Christ as “born of Woman”!

And in Revelations, a Woman gave birth to the Child who would rule the world. Satan then gave chase but failed to catch her because God had protected/preserved the Woman so that there would be “enmity” always between them from the beginning of the world to eternity.

From the Magnificat, Mary praises God, “for He has done great things for me, Holy is His Name”!

Truly then, one of the great things that God would do for Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ, His only Son, is to make enmity between the Woman and Satan at all times.

This is what He had said and His Word will not return to Him empty, for it will achieve the purpose for which it was spoken.

In the Liturgy of the Word, during Mass today, Jesus says “to God, all things are possible”!

Therefore I believe that it is possible for God to honour Mary in such a way that no human mind can understand.

Such honour will be demeed so great that the human mind will need to say “No way, God will not grant such an abundance of grace to Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ, His only Son, because the Bible Scriptures do not say so”.

That is why I asked “how do you imprison Jesus Christ, True God and True Man, within the pages of your Bible”?

The Pilgrim comes out with the astonishing reply – “I don’t. But God does”! This means that it is God who imprisons His only Son, within the pages of the Protestant Bibles.

But where oh where, in all of Scripture does God say this?
If you ask the Pilgrim for a Scripture verse that says this, then I bet you he will run hither and thither and go somewhere else where there is gnashing of teeth.

But he will not answer because he is afraid as he is afraid to answer my questions.

But as a Catholic, I do not have a problem because I can say that in Scripture, Mary proclaims that God has done great things for me. Holy is His Name.

And for that reason –
I can believe that Mary’s Immaculate Conception is just ONE OF THOSE GREAT THINGS.

Sincerely, Nik.

PS. Sorry that this comes to you a bit late as it was typed on my eldest son’s computer and it had crashed.

By now you will have seen my “mea culpa” to Jeff H and The Pilgrim.
I am puzzled that so far I have only directly responded to 3 people – the Pilgrim, yourself, and Tanya C.

Out of you 3, only the Pilgrim has accused me of blasphemy, so far.

And out of all others who may have read my offerings, only one, Jeff H, has accused me of blasphemy, so far.

But anyways let us now await the testimony of The Pilgrim and Jeff H, for their documentation of my indictment.

PPS
I have just read your most recent contributions and will take a while to compile an answer.

but very quickly, I have not found in the Catechism, the teaching that you had referred to.

Now you say that there are other places where I may find the teachings of the Catholic Church. This is indeed great news to me.

If as you say that the doctrines of the Church had changed then this is even more GREAT news to me.

But again you offer NO reference whatsoever!

Sincerely Nik A Morris

Nikola,

You make absolutely no sense at all. I am a mother of SIX children. I know full well what it means to carry a child in your womb and bring life into the world!! But what does that have to do with anything I said ??? Is English your second language? Cause any English speaking person would understand that by saying “a moment in time” meant that the time that Mary had Jesus as her son on Earth was a small bit of time as we know it and even a smaller amount of time in light of eternity! So of course that “moment in time” included the entire pregnancy and motherhood until death.

But again, God blessing her in that way means absolutely nothing to us! It does not mean that we should worship her! God gave me grace through each of my pregnancies and continues to give me grace through the daily trials of being a mother to many young children. That does not make me eligible for worship!!

I think you enjoy going off on rabbit trails about things that mean nothing so that you can dodge the true questions. You ignored my questions because you can not answer them. I am sorry that you have devoted your life to something that you cannot intelligently defend. May God open your eyes to the truth and grant you repentant unto salvation.

Another thing, not that it really matters but it is an inconsistency in your posts, are you or are you not a mother??

You said, “one of my six children…. I had asked both my children,….”

then said, “I am not a mother either..”

So do you like to make up scenarios for the purpose of debate, are you unable to keep your lies straight, or is there more than one person using the pen name Nikola to post here?

Tanya C.

Tanya C.

to Brother Michael,

quote -”Nikola,
You cannot seriously be asking whether or not the Pope worships Mary. And not only he but millions of deceived Roman Catholics as well. This is a question beyond pale and makes me wonder why you are asking it. Is it so that you can come back with the classic RC retort that Catholics do not worship Mary but adore her? Please – that line may work on EWTN and Catholic Answers but it won’t work here.
End of quote

Dear Brother Michael

Thank you but I am serious, honestly very serious, because I am a Catholic.

However I have not heard any Pope, even the most wicked ones ever say that they worship/adore Mary.

Indeed “no Catholic” will tell you or anyone else that Catholics worship Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ.

If I understand it correctly, you were once a Catholic, so did anyone tell you to worship Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ.

Have you read/studied the Catholic Catechism where ALL Catholic teachings are documented, so that you may speak the Truth. In other words, so that you may know what are you talking about.

In Christian Charity and for the love of Jesus Christ, please do this and document your questions!

Be not like “fourpointer”, who is unable yet to say where exactly is the Catholic teaching that he is flouting!

He makes a point, more or less on hear say – very sad.

May I hear your documentation soon?

Sincerely, Nik A Morris
________________________________________________________________________________
Dear Tanya C,

Thank you – please accept my apologies.

I had typed out a considered follow up to my last posting to you on my other son’s computer and will send this later on this afternoon.

Very quickly though did I not ask that I would let your questions rest awhile.

Now you came in on certain questions I had asked @fourpointer@, which you did not answer.

In the UK, it is a courtesy to keep place in the line up when in the supermarket!

Sincerely, Nik A Morris.
________________________________________________________________________________

Dear The Pilgrim,

Please forgive me because the following has become necessary for me to say.

Are you a real human person with a real name?

One gets an uneasy feeling – it is truly quite unreal, that I am talking to an “IDOL with many X-factors”!

Certainly, you do have the X-factor! And with it, you do have many axes to grind!

Your understanding of the teachings of the Catholic Church as you have committed in writing is awesome, in vehemence and malice against the Roman Catholic Church and towards “little ole me”.

Have you read/studied the Catechism of the Catholic Church so that you may know what you are talking about?

To be sure my own dissident son, James and dissident daughter Veronica when leaving the Faith of the Fathers have said and displayed the same frame of mind as you have.

But now, may I begin from the beginning like the good song sings in the Sound of Music – do! re! mi!

From the very start of “Defending, Contending” there was much song and dance, gleeful twisting and turning about 2 videos of a Catholic teacher who could not give answers, when he could have said “sorry, I do not know so let me write this down and check the Catechism of the Catholic Church and come back to you”. Is it genuine?

There was “much ado about nothing” as Shakespeare had said because you were celebrating a “falsehood about what Catholics do believe”!

You were celebrating a figment of your imagination because you did not check the Catechism of the Catholic Church to ascertain what Catholics do really believe.

Your celebration of falsehood was like the scene before Moses when he came down with the Ten Commandments.

He saw before him, his own people dancing and prancing around the IDOL of a golden calf.

May I refer you to St. Paul’s comment – “I would be but a noisy gong”!

(This is what I told my dissident son James when he declared “I believe only in the authority of the Bible, me and my Bible only, me and my own interpretation of the bible Scriptures, only”. The sad irony of what he said is this – I will decide what the Bible says and what it means, all by myself, because Luther had said that even a “plough boy” can understand the clear words of Holy Scripture ).

Sorry to digress, but now that the shouting and tumult has died down a little, no one, yes not one, has come out to show any Christian Charity to say “sorry we made a mistake”!

Instead, your goodself, the spectral Pilgrim and Jeff H, have made claims about something that I had never said or believed in, and consequently you say that I have committed blaphemy!

I have asked you to subtantiate your claim and now I am requesting the views of all who have posted or bothered to read my postings.

Sincerely, with my prayers, Nik A Morris.

PS when 2 people disagree on what the Scripture means, for instance like you disagree with me, is there any authority on earth who can say anything before ruling on the matter?

Is there an authority in your Church that can give such counselling.

Do you think then, that Jesus Christ, True God and True Man would establish a Church with his Scriptures and leave it entirely up to each and every one to decide for themselves?

If He did not establish a Church, then to whom did He entrust the deposit of Faith?

Honestly I do take you seriously. I will meditate on your last posting to me truly closely and as I have said I will pray to the Holy Spirit and to my Mother Mary, who is also Mother of Jesus Christ.

I note that you are very very sure that your method of interpretation of Scripture is so absolutely correct/proper.

This means that you want me to accept “your authority”.

Are you assuming infallibility here – so please document this charismatic gift.

Firstly then, who gave you this authority and because you believe in Scripture only as my son James, does – where oh where does Scripture confer on you such awesome power?

Needless to say, I have asked James and Veronica but no answer is forthcoming from both my 2 dissident children after all these years many many years.

I will be happy to send your response to them or if you wish I will arrange direct contact for you.

Now therefore do you have a Catechism of your own Church that I can study, because I do want to ask you questions and I want to be sure that I do know what I am talking about.

Nik.

Dear Tanya C

I had replied impromptu to your last missile, and that may make you feel that I was not taking you seriously.

Sorry, for being seemingly discourteous, but you see, you were so much on heat and ferocious that I thought it best to speak heart-to-heart, so to speak.

After pondering over your comments though, I am still cut-to-the-quick because you were coming at me for things I had raised directly to the points of the “Fourpointer”!

Following is what I had said.

Now because Jesus Christ is “King”, we celebrate a feast day known as “Christ the King”, and because Jesus Christ is the son of Mary, then by virtue of this, Mary would be a “Queen”.

Is this a good thing?

Is this a great thing?

Is it possible that the Queenship of Mary, could be one of the great things that God would grant to her as she had mentioned in her song of praise, the Magnificat?

End of quote.

Cconspicuously, you offered no answer to any of the queries in that post – none!

But you rushed in with this “To say that He granted her immaculate conception would put her on par with Jesus and take glory away from Him”. End of quote.

You must know by now that 2 people, Jeff H and the Pilgrim have deduced from what I had written a serious charge of “blasphemy”.

But so far you have not made this accusation.

From the above you say that the honour “Immaculate Conception” would make Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ, HIS EQUAL and this would take glory away from Him.

How is it possible that this title of honour granted by Jesus Christ Himself would put Mary on par with Him?

Do you think that Jesus Christ would not know what he is doing?

Do you think that Mary’s “fiat” – Behold, the handmade of the Lord. Be done to me according to your Word@ put her on par with her Son, Jesus Christ?

And while my little mind cannot fathom this out – but what if Jesus Christ should raise up Mary, His Mother, to be on par with HIM as you say.

Then what is it to you or to anybody else on this earth, in all creation?

Would you dare to deny Him this prerogative?

How are you going to stop Him?

Are you going to haul Him up to His feet before you, and thumb up the pages of your Bible in front of His face?

Would you say, show me where in the Bible are YOU authorized to do this. Do think about it!

And yes – you would be right to think- that I am the imbecile here, just to think the thought!!

Now then consider this in your words –

“A good analogy would be this, if a King impregnated a poor woman to have an heir this would not automatically make the poor woman his Queen but the son would become his heir because of his FATHER alone”.

Excuse me, please, but what are you doing?

A good analogy, you say for Jesus Christ, the King to be doing this to a poor woman or to any woman?

Would Jesus Christ be looking for an heir?

Why?

You see, if you had only considered the above questions and answered them even just to yourself then you would be spared to not come out like this.

But anyway, what is it to you if the King grants her, this “poor woman” of your analogy, the honour of QUEENSHIP?

Now let us look at what the Pilgrim came out with on the same subject.

Quote –

“The immaculate conception doctrine is man made by the Roman Catholic church. It is not from God, it was never from God and it was added by the RCC in their further advance of Mary idolatry.
To “prove” something by its absence is illogical.
You might as well argue that “Jesus gave Mary Twinkies and Coca Cola” based solely on the fact that it’s not in the Bible”.

End of quote.

Oilei! There is a such a great deal of meat here for another day but for now let us focus on the last sentence.

Let us go along with the Pilgrim – if Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ should ask her Son, Jesus Christ, for “Twinkies and coca cola”, what do you think Jesus Christ will do?

Now lets us refer to another reading of the “Liturgy of the Word” from the morning Catholic Mass the other day – I heard this, “what manner of a Father would give his child a stone, when asked for bread”?

For good measure, let us see what happened at the marriage feast in Cana when Jesus Christ was just beginning His Ministry.

Here Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ prayed to her Son. “There is no wine”.

Do you think that Jesus Christ did not know this already? That the wine has run out?

So apparently he was waiting for someone to ask Him? But who?

And since no one came forward, perhaps He wanted Mary, His Mother to come to Him. Why?

Perhaps he wants to show the people the power of His Own mother’s intercession?

“Woman”, He says. And from this my son James, an Evangelical Christian says that Jesus Christ is here rebuking His Mother not to bother Him.

That is his interpretation – Bible Authority only, me and my Bible only.

How does this measure up to to what the Pilgrim had said
– that Jesus loved and respected His Mother in obedience to the Father.

Sorry to digress so I will now answer one of your questions.

Quote – How did Jesus have brothers and sisters if Mary was a perpetual Virgin?

Please understand this, the subject under discussion presently is “the Immaculate Conception” and I was pulled up by the Pilgrim from the outset.

However my answer is back to you, because I am a Catholic. I do not believe that Jesus Christ had any other biological brothers or sisters. So, please tell ,why do you say this?

7.30 pm Sorry that I need to stop here. After my earlier posting to you today, I went shopping to Sainsbury and the queue was long and after that I went to the pub!

This will allow time you to substantiate what you say – this post comes to you un-edited.

Sincerely with my prayers. Nik A Morris

Oh Nikola – you are holding fast to the Roman traditions of men and kicking hard against the pricks. With all the words that have been graciously written to you by these long suffering brethren, what more can I add? If you do not hear their words, you surely will not hear mine. But I will answer in brief your questions.

To say Catholics do not worship Mary is ludicrous. Anyone who is honest with the plain facts would admit this. First, the definition of worship per Webster’s dictionary is:

1. To adore; to pay divine honors to; to reverence with supreme respect and veneration.

Now, you are honestly going to tell me that Catholics do not do this with Mary? And the Pope, are you toying with me? Come, come. Let me ask you this, unto whom did Pope John Paul pray to upon the assassination attempt on his life? Unto whom did he credit with sparing his life? What did the big “M” carved into his casket stand for? On and on I could go….

And other Catholics, do they worship Mary? Absolutely. All one has to do is watch some videos of the Marian processions or cultic adoration at Lourdes or Fatima. Or drive by a Catholic “church” and invariably you will have the HUGE statue of Mary and quite often Jesus totally missing . Or, if he is found he is always the wee wittle helpless baby in BIG mama’s arms. But that’s Rome – your “jesus” is either eaten like a Ritz cracker, hanging defeated and forlorn on the crucifix, or perpetually frozen in time as an infant in Mary’s arms.

Finally, yes, I was taught to worship Mary. I was taught to pray to her (which is a form of worship due ONLY to God), I was taught to bow down unto statues of her (violation of a clear command of God), I was taught to look to her for many of my needs (God is the supplier of all needs), to pray the rosary to her (pagan repetition of vain prayers), etc..

Repent and believe the gospel. You will be all the more severely judged if you forsake all that has been shared with you. For unto whom much has been give, much will be required.

Lisa

The title of anyones denomination or church tradition is not the defining factor with a christian. If you are not born again by the Spirit of God all you have is a dead religion. When someone is truly regenerated ,the same Spirit of God will rapidly lead one out of God dishonouring cults such as the roman church. Sorry to be so blunt but there is too much at stake to play religious word games. The fact that you converted from one religion to another religion suggests you were not saved before and you’re not saved now .Lisa ,you must be born again. Religion brings death Jesus grants life and life eternal.

The truth be told, it is not only the mainline Protestant denominations that are on their way back to Rome, but many churches that may never have “come out” of her. Likewise, these churches have adopted many of Rome’s days, seasons and practices and now teach them as doctrine.

And for Rome, this is fine for she doesn’t care if she receives back into her arms daughters she bore many years ago, or newly converted ones.

Nikola,

You were already given adequate scripture to prove that Jesus had siblings. You do not believe it because you believe the authority of the RCC over the Bible.

Mary cannot be a queen because she was a human just like us. She is not on par with God period, that is blasphemy, there I’ve said it. We’ve already gone over this so I will not elaborate. We have given you scriptures and you ignore them. There is nothing else we can do but pray that God would open your eyes to the Truth of His Word. Did you know that John 1:1 says that Jesus is the Word? He is One with His Word. If we want to know Him we need to Know his Word. Therefore anything that contradicts His Word is contrary to the nature of God and ultimately false. The Bible also says that the Word is foolishness to those who are perishing, so I don’t expect you to understand it until you have been regenerated.

And I DID answer your questions. The good or great things that God did for Mary revolve around her son. She was humble yet you want to puff her up. She knew that the great things done to her were the things that God was doing and would continue to do in her life in regards to JESUS. She humbly submitted to God yet you would have it that God/Jesus submits to her!! How ludicrous!

We have answered all your questions yet you continue to act as if we didn’t. You just regurgitate the same old rhetoric. I think this conversation is pretty much useless at this point. However, I’ll wait patiently in line now for your response to my question about your honesty. We cannot have an honest discussion and take you seriously if you lie. So are you a mother or not? Is someone else sharing your pen name? Or can you just not keep the lies straight?

I’m pretty sure that Def Con does not want people misrepresenting themselves simply for the purpose of being a “counter balance” (see rules of engagement #3)

Tanya C.

Dear Tanya C,

Thank you for your patience as so much water has rushed down under the bridge in mid/norhtern Uk!

Sunday today, is the Catholic Feast Day of “Jesus Christ, the King – King of all Kings”!

Pilate had asked “Are you a King”? And Jesus answered , I am a King – I am born for this, to witness to the trhuth”!

That is why I had said “that by virtue of Christ’s declaration that He is King, His Mother, Mary is “QUEEN”.

Sadly though you came out this way, “Mary is not Queen”!

Then you went on to say that I had blasphemed , I was contradictory, I could not straighten out my lies, I had regurgitaed all manner of rhetorics.

But nowhere did you quote what I had written to support your accusations. In the sme way, neither has Jeff C and the Pastor!

Now although we are straying a way bit from the Immaculate Conception of Mary, you had asked about the Bible mention of the “brothers” of Jesus.

So that we may move forward, may I say that Jesus had said in Scripture that “hese are my brothers, sisters and Mother. whosoever who does the will of My Father?

Are these people that He had addressed the same as “your brothers|?

From the Cross , Jesus had said to St. John, the beloved discipile – “this is yhour MMother”!

Perhaps when you clear up your undestanding of the above we can move forward. Sincerely, Nik A Morris

Dear Desert Pastor

Quote – Thanks for coming by again. Again, to reiterate, the doctrine of the immaculate conception was not even a Catholic teaching until the mid-1800’s. Even the early church did not believe that Mary remained a virgin or that she was sinless. That was a heresy propagated by the Roman Catholic system. End of quote.

Surely you are aware that the doctrines of the Catholic Church had developed over time. And for this reason the @Trinity@ was not formalised for many many years.

I would not like to speculate that the Early Church did not believe in the doctrine in those earlier years but no doubt the Fathers were thinking about it, studying the scriptures. discussing and praying over their collective understanding.

Finally in the fulness of time the Holy Spirit inspires the declaration of the Church.

Your above comments clearly indicate that you are not a Catholic so I would not expect you to believe in it.

The Canon of Scripture went through many many years of enduring discussions and similarly Mary’s role in the Church
was subjected to the same careful scrutiny over the years.

When and how did your own church develop your understanding of these doctrines.

On the brothers, mothers and sisters of Jesus Christ I find it very interesting that nowhere, the scriptures name these supposed brothers as @sons of Mary@! And the sisters are also nameless and none of them was ever referred to as the @daughter of Mary@.

Only, yes only Jesus Christ was ever referred to as the Son of Mary!!

Additionally you say this @“John, take care of Mary. My earthly work is done, and she needs somebody to care for her as I will no longer be here to do so.”@

In my Bible Jesus merely says to John, @this is your mother@ as in Sola Scriptura so how do you wrap up your mind around this speculation?

Sincerely, Nik A Morris

Followers of the Pope are proof that it takes God to open a persons eyes to see the Gospel. There is no way a true Christian can follow what the RCC teaches.

1Tim4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Tim4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Tim4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

I have often thought these verses are speaking of the RCC. Especiall the part about “forbidding to marry”.

shane,

1Tim4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

I have often thought these verses are speaking of the RCC. Especiall the part about “forbidding to marry”.

shane you are right, but the RCC violates BOTH tenets here: 1) priests cannot marry; 2) “fish on Friday” – ie no meat.

How blatantly the RCC tosses aside God’s specific admonitions… sort of a ‘poke in the eye’.

I’m glad I don’t have to answer for RCC heresy!

- Jeff H

I was thinking there was something also about only eating fish on Friday. The town I in which I went to college has a lot of Catholics. The cafeteria at the college sold fish every Friday. My instructor said it was because Catholics only ate fish on Fridays.

Fourpointer – Don’t forget to mention about the gorging and gastronomic orgy that happens before lent! Sales for ice cream, chocolate, cigarettes and all the other vices given up by “good” Catholics in self-flagellation certainly spiked that day.

Hi Pilgrim,

I’ve been off-line for a while. My wife was in the hospital with double pneumonia, congestive heart failure, and flu.

Our awesome heavenly Father brought much glory to Himself by healing her and she is at home now.

God is GOOD!

Blessings,
- Jeff H

Thank you David for your kind words!

- Jeff H

Praise God – Great to hear Jeff H. Welcome back and blessings to you and your wife.