In Him,
CD

He should just admit the truth: he needs to make money in order to stay in business. He can even expand it by saying that he needs to sell the bad in order to make enough money to be able to offer the good, and if he were to limit his offerings to doctrinally sound, edifying, Biblically justified materials, he’d be out of business in a week, and so would every other bookstore – or at least every other bookstore run as a for profit enterprise – in the country, as would practically every Christian publishing/video company.

So that begs the question: would getting rid of this Christian merchandising industry be a bad thing?

Right?

Romans 16:17-20–Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple. For your obedience has become known to all. Therefore I am glad on your behalf; but I want you to be wise in what is good, and simple concerning evil. And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly.

And before you accuse us of being the ones causing division, remember one thing: God’s truth was here first. It is those who distort it and turn it into a lie that are the ones causing division.

- The Pilgrim

The following are two quotes from Voddie Baucham on this matter:

“When I first became a Christian, I thought all Christians were sold-out, fire-breathing, truth-telling, water-walking followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. I also believed that I could trust anything that was written by a Christian author and published by a Christian publisher. I soon discovered that I was wrong.”

“Most Christians in our culture live like everyone else. There is little distinction between our lives and the lives of the pagans down the street. We wear the same clothes, watch the same movies, read the same books, send our children to the same schools, and sign the same divorce decrees as everyone else. Furthermore, there ought to be a sign posted in every Christian bookstore that reads, “The views expressed in these books do not necessarily express the views of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” I’m not saying, don’t read Christian books. I’m just saying, read them with discernment.”

- The Pilgrim

My suggestion is that you begin to police your thoughts right away. Because they are VERY illogical and harmfully deceptive to others as well.

The whole notion that it is not your job to tell people what to think, well let’s just look at it rationally. First of all, we know that most people are intellectually lazy and don’t think. They prefer easy to read books on ‘current or relevant topics’ meaning they don’t really want to stretch themselves. That is not your fault to be sure, BUT. . .

If you want real thinking to occur, you should begin with exposing people to worthy thoughts, not this fuzzy, lame, modern so called christian garbage. Sell the greatest thinkers from all different cultures and please at least sell a logic book or two! But, I doubt most of the books you carry are very weighty to begin with. Do you carry “Doctrines of Repentance” by Thomas Watson? Now there is a thoughtful tome. But repentance is not very marketable these days and those Puritans, well they were so verbose. My friend walked into a Christian Bookstore requesting that one and the clerk said, “You don’t need a book on repentance, just tell God you’re sorry.” I would roflol but it is a sad commentary on the biblical ignorance of Christian youth.

The real issue here is should a CHRISTIAN bookstore carry heretical books? This is a VERY important question. The assumption of most people walking into a Christian bookstore is that the books will be CHRISTIAN. ( I should say it used to be, most of my friends now know better. But new, weak or non Christians all assume everything in there represents Christianity.) If you doubt that, do a survey of people walking in.

I have no problem if you will just rename the store, BOOKSTORE.
I think it is “safer” to sell the Satanic Bible, the Koran or texts of other religions because they are easily identified as such, but the problem begins when heresy with a thin veneer of Christianity is sold in an environment that is labeled Christian. It is misleading.

What if I owned a Bakery and one of every five or six baked goods had hash, LSD or Pot baked inside? But they were properly labeled, if people would just READ it. Am I responsible if someone o.d.s or becomes a junkie? Shouldn’t they read the labels and use their brain?

No, I should rename the bakery Buzzin’ Brownies or Tokin’ Treats or Manic Munchies. It becomes even worse if I own a Dolly Madison chain bakery and some of the Dolly Madison goods are spiked. Then people really do NOT expect a trip with their treat.

The word Christian has a specific meaning and my friend it cannot be redefined the way you have redefined grace. I REALLY CHALLENGE YOU TO REEXAMINE YOUR CUTE LITTLE UNBIBLICAL ACROSTIC.

Grace is the fundamental element of Christianity. If you don’t get that right you have NOTHING right.

Grace is God’s unmerited favor shown to the depraved sinner finalizing in the offering of the blood of Christ. (I say finalized because there was grace, through faith of Abraham and others before Christ.)

The heart of this argument is contending for the faith itself.

Regards,
Journeyman

Thank you. You have said what we have been trying to get across to people all this time. Jesus did not sit around and have a conversation about “What does God mean to you?” He said “I AM THE WAY…NO ONE comes to the Father BUT THROUGH ME.” To carry authors who lead people to, as Phil Groom said, “Think outside the box,” is to invite heresy and false belief. You are correct–these places should NOT be advertising as “Christian” bookstores.

And yeah, kinda funny how all these “Warm and Fuzzy Jesus” types fail to mention Matthew 23. Or Jesus chasing out the moneychangers. Cursing the fig tree. “Go forth and sin no more.” “Woe to you, Chorazin and Bethsaida.”

I’ll save you – anyone who wants to tell me that I am judgmental, and JESUS is all love, and no judgment – some time. Open your Holy Bible and read Matthew chapter 23.

Do you have any idea how you are grieving the heart of God by encouraging people to be influenced by the doctrines of Satan? I pray that God grants you repentance, to follow the ONE TRUTH–The Lord Jesus Christ. If not, you will be condemned to the lowest Hell for leading people astray.

Galatians 1:8-9–But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

That word “accursed” means “damned.” If someone is spreading lies and encouraging others to follow anyone other than Christ, they are to be damned. Those aren’t my words–they come from God.

I am not claiming to speak FOR God, I am just letting you know what His word already says. You can choose to believe it, or not. I can’t force you to do anything. All I can do is give you the truth. But remember what Jesus said in Mark 9:42–”But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.”

I pray that God’s mercy will find you and grant you repentance.

I manage a Christian bookshop and yes, I accept full responsibility for my range of stock, which includes everything from the Bhagavad Gita through the Bible to the Qur’an; from Rob Bell through Don Carson, Steve Chalke and Brian McLaren to Jim Packer.

Because my job isn’t to tell my customers what to think: it’s to encourage them to think, to think outside the box, to think beyond the narrow confines of whatever tradition they come from, to think about why they believe what they believe, and to be prepared — as Peter had to be prepared, Acts 10 — to rethink their beliefs and attitudes.

Grace: God’s radical action changes everything. There are no sacred cows in Christianity: following Jesus is about freedom, freedom to think, freedom to challenge, to question.

Thought police? Just say no!

I have to say that you have been very respectful in your approach. Thank you. I am actually running out of time because my wife and I are leaving the country for 6 weeks in two days and I have to get ready for that. If you don’t mind could you please email the links at my email and I will check them when time allows?

davidknapp1@gmail.com

Take care.

I’m very interested to know if you found the articles and quotes linked by myself and others here regarding the manifold heresies of Robert Schuller, Brian McLaren, and Rob Bell to be troublesome or problematic in the light of revealed scripture.

I hope you’ll have time to provide feedback on these issues.

In Christ,
CD

- A “slain Christ has no meaning.”

- “The journey to the cross should be the last ‘useless journey.”

- “Do not make the pathetic error of ‘clinging to the old rugged cross.’”

- “The Name of Jesus Christ as such is but a symbol… It is a symbol that is safely used as a replacement for the many names of all the gods to which you pray.”

- “God is in everything I see.”

- “The recognition of God is the recognition of yourself.”

- “The oneness of the Creator and the creation is your wholeness, your sanity and your limitless power.”

- “The Atonement is the final lesson he [man] needs learn, for it teaches him that, never having sinned, he has no need of salvation.”

For more on this, check out this link. I also recommend this episode of CrossTalk on Schuller’s Rethink Conference. Additionally I think this may be of interest as well.

P.S. This is Rob Bell’s view of Scripture and this is McLaren’s view on homosexuality.

“The most serious sin is the one that causes me to say, ‘I am unworthy. I may have no claim to divine sonship if you examine me at my worst.’” “For once a person believes he is an ‘unworthy sinner,’ it is doubtful if he can really honestly accept the saving grace God offers in Jesus Christ.” (Self-Esteem, p. 98)

That quote is more than enough to consider Robert as lost, sinful, totally depraved sinner who has never seen his own need of a Saviour, nor recognized the depth of his own wickedness before God. However, that is to be expected when you do not preach “Thus says God’s Word” but instead preach “Thus believes Robbie-boy about why you should love yourself and you too can become god in you!”

Millions are headed down the broad road to destruction and wolves in sheep’s clothing like Schuller are helping drive them there!

The Desert Pastor

P.S. – The above quote from the Norman Vincent Peale disciple was from Time, March 1985.

Without bothering to check, you made an assumption about the ministry in which I am currently involved based on one comment. I used the comment I did to refer to a specific situation in which I was involved. I believe in a plurality of elders and currently serve in such a plurality in the ministry where God has chosen to place me for the time being.

That is good that you do not go to church for the purpose of somebody telling you how to live your life. However, the Bible does make it clear that the role of an elder/pastor/teacher is to teach and disciple believers. This includes the very necessary means of not only exhorting but edifying as and when necessary from the Word of God. Pastors/elders have a solemn responsibility to proclaim all the Word of God, not just the parts they like or the ones the people think they want to hear!

Pastors/elders also have a responsibility to grow with the people to whom they minister. There is an accountability factor not just to God but before the congregation for preaching and teaching the undiluted Word of God.

Now so that I understand a little more about a couple of your comments – 1) What do you believe the Biblical role of the local church is today (if any)? 2) You said you follow the Jesus found in the 4 Gospels – do you believe the epistles are just as inspired and that the believer AND local church is to follow the doctrine found throughout the entire New Testament?

Sincerely,
The Desert Pastor

Thanks. I will check back for your comment.

I tried to post a comment containing the links you requested, but it’s presently being held in the blog’s anti-spam queue. For some reason this frequently happens to my comments – and I’m a contributer to this blog! Go figure!

Anyway once the Pilgrim clears out the spam queue the comment will show up. Thanks for your patience.

In Christ,
CD

“Christ follower” is a common (though not exclusive) emergent/emerging theme and buzzword that is often employed over and against “Christian” as a descriptor for a born-again, regenerate, true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. On the surface the terms seem interchangeable, perhaps some people may even consider them to be synonyms. But methinks that’s a different subject for a different day. Also, as previously noted, Bell and McLaren are well known emergent/emerging figures so I thought I’d ask if you self-identify as emergent.

At any rate, here are a few sources for your consideration, but be warned; whether or not you’ve realized it a battle for the truth – the objective truth of Christianity – is presently raging within the broader professing church and you probably won’t find these sources to be particularly “conversational” in tone – they’re not and they are not intended to be. Nor are those engaged in The Truth War interested in congenial dialogue or “finding common ground” with the other side. This is because there’s simply no room or excuse for compromise due to the nature of this spiritual battle.

I might summarize the thinking something like this – “Biblically speaking the truth has nothing to learn from error and nothing to gain from entertaining error therefore error must be exposed in all its forms and rebuked by the unchanging Word of God.”

I pray that you’ll find the following resources to be both edifying and eye opening and that you will receive them with a Berean attitude, checking the scriptures to see if such things are so.

Rob Bell 1
Rob Bell 2

Brian McLaren 1
Brian McLaren 2

Brian McLaren 3

Brian McLaren’s Everything Must Change examined

No I am not emergent or emerging.

I consider myself a follower of Jesus. I follow the Jesus found in the four Gospels just for clarity.

Thanks for the response.

To be very frank with you I’ve both heard and read some really horrifically heretical – some would say blasphemous – statements by each of the aforementioned trio; but most recently and frequently from McLaren in particular (though Bell runs a really close second).

I’ve personally read from numerous sources that cite McLaren’s works directly, comparing his stated positions and claims with straightforward scriptural exegesis (nothing fancy or tricky mind you, but plain, literal textual scripture) and in far too many cases the two simply don’t line up.

Would you be interested if I listed some of the sources for your consideration? Also I noticed that you’ve used some common emergent/emerging buzzwords and of course McLaren and Bell are notable figures within the emergent/emerging movement – so would it be fair to say that you identify with the emergent/emerging church?

In Christ,
CD

That’s the thing, I have not heard anything about McLaren, Bell, or Schuller that is not from sources or straight from the horses mouth.

The one I will speak on is McLaren. I have been reading two of his books. The secret Message of Jesus and now his follow up Everything must change. I have yet to find one single heresy in these two books.

To just say that he is a heretic or to even give a quote without a source is not good enough. If I can’t get away with it when I write something for, let’s say school, then I shouldn’t be able to get away with even on a blog

Thanks for the question. Grace and peace.

“Fair enough, Nina! You do not have to read these blogs, nor do you have to answer to us. However, with that kind of attitude, you sound a lot like people in congregations I have ministered to that said, ‘Pastor, we want you to preach from the Bible, but we didn’t call you to come to teach us how to live or to tell us what God actually thinks about our sins!’

If we believe in doing everything by the book, which I think we should, then we should know that from looking at scripture that the role of pastor cannot be found. Pastors yes, pastor no (Ephesians 4:11 NASB)

In fact the idea of a single guy leading the church is looked down upon. “Diotrephes, who ‘loved to have the preeminence’ in the church, illegitimately took control of its affairs (3 John 9-10).”

Desert Pastor I do not look to one guy standing behind a pagan pulpit to tell me how to live my life. I go to church but do not rely on the pastor to help me grow. I am a big boy and can do that on my own. I do believe that community is essential though and that we should grow together also.

All I am saying is that if everybody believes that we should do everything by the Book then by all means figure out what is actually doing everything by the Book and what is our traditions. Grace and peace to everyone here.

I’d be curious to know what you have heard about McLaren, Bell, and Schuller given your 20 years of experience “in the loop”. And – my apologies for my ignorance – but what is “the loop”?

In Christ,
CD

I do agree that a children’s book teaching that Mary is the queen of heaven is false.

He as retailer does the have the right to have on his shelves whatever he wants but the reason you will not find the Book of Mormon, the Satanic Bible, or pornography is because for at least 2 reasons. First he is not receiving catalogs and phone calls to carry this on his shelf. 2. He is not an idiot.

It’s common knowledge that McLaren, Bell, and Schuller are spreading heresies? I have not heard that they were. I have been in the loop for 20 years.

Comparing the Awake magazine to these three authors is not a good argument. All three authors can have their books published by Thomas Nelson and T.N. will not publish for the Watchtower society or I should say that the JW’s wouldn’t want T.N publishing for them. If you really want to be upset at somebody it should be the publishers who will, I bet, publish some of your favorite authors along with these so called heretics.

This is the first time to your site so I would be interested in knowing what type of authors he should carry on the shelves.